Jesus Christ Is Lord

That every knee should bow and every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father!

Posts Tagged ‘turkey’

A Question For Premillennial Dispensational Rapture Believers: Explain The Fifth Seal In Revelation!

Posted by Job on September 25, 2009

Revelation 6:9-11 reads

And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

The Word of God for the elect people of God. Glory be to God.

For my premillennial dispensational brethren who believe in a pretribulation (or prewrath) rapture that spares the church from the time of sorrow, please explain this text. Who are those slain for the Word of God? Are they Christians? And when will these Christians be slain for their testimony? Does it refer to those believers slain in times past, whether in the Old Testament or at the time that Revelation was written? Or does it refer to believers slain during the great tribulation? (If so, how can any Christian stand under persecution, even martyrdom, without being emboldened by the Holy Spirit, which according to premillennial dispensational doctrine has to be taken from the earth along with the church? Please recall the difference between Peter and the apostles before the Comforter – cowering and fearful and running from their lives – and afterwards – bold and brave witnesses even unto death. As a matter of fact Peter himself went from being the worst – the one who denied Christ three times – to being the boldest. And how can anyone even be saved during the great tribulation without the work of the Holy Spirit? Recall: the Holy Spirit was indeed present during the time of the Old Testament saints. Indeed, the Bible states that the earth’s very existence cannot so much as even be sustained without the Spirit of God.) Or does it refer to believers slain during all ages, from the first (Abel) until the last before the return of Jesus Christ?

To interpret this passage with scripture, let us go to another one in Revelation that touches the martyrdom of the saints, which is Revelation 18:24. Please recall that this chapter refers to the fall of Babylon,  which since the Tower of Babel incident and particularly since the destruction of the temple in 586 has been used to symbolize people and systems that rebel against and oppose God and persecute His elect covenant people, and that Revelation extends this symbolism with personification, describing all that opposes God as a harlot (prostitute), which in this verse is called “her”:  And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth. Now as much as I love my King James Version, allow me to quibble with their translation of “kai” to “and” in the phrase “and of all that were slain upon the earth.” Many times, “kai” is just used for emphasis, as an amplifier of degree or a focus of attention. This text should probably read:

“And in her [Babylon] was found the blood of prophets and of saints, indeed all [prophets and saints] that were slain upon the earth.”

However, if you go with the King James Version, which granted carries much more weight and authority than my own, and all which follow its tradition on that text, then “and of all that were slain upon the earth” simply means that in Babylon was the blood of every person that has been murdered, all innocent blood that has been shed. This means that the prior clause “And in her was found the blood of prophets and of saints” means that “the prophets and saints” (a  New Testament idiom which refers to old covenant and new covenant believers) which means that the blood of Stephen and all other Christian martyrs ever since is contained in Babylon. So with reference to the elect the meaning is the same: the blood of everyone killed because of their faith in God is in Babylon.

So, if we interpret Revelation 6:9-11 with Revelation 18:24, when the fifth seal was opened the martyred souls viewed under the altar should very likely be interpreted to include every Christian martyr since Stephen. This would support the idea of a church that has always been under continuous tribulation. Such an interpretation would be consistent with, indeed fulfill the words of Jesus Christ in John 15:18-20.

If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you. If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you. Remember the word that I said unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you; if they have kept my saying, they will keep yours also. But all these things will they do unto you for my name’s sake, because they know not him that sent me.

The Word of God for the people of God. Glory be to God.

Now one can hardly claim that those words were only aimed at the apostles. Those words are for all Christians for all time. So what basis is there for believing that there will be a rapture to save the church from a persecution that A) Jesus Christ said that we would face and B) Jesus Christ sent the Holy Spirit to empower us to withstand? Now this is not an endorsement of the historicist, preterist or amillennial position that there will be no seven year literal great tribulation. Instead, it is to say that if there will be such a seven year literal great tribulation, the church will be present for it just as it has been present for all other tribulations, the “lesser” tribulations.

Now the prewrath (and mid-wrath) rapture adherent does have Revelation 3:10, which reads “Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth”, in his favor. However, that could be fulfilled in a number of ways, including 1) a place of refuge (which ironically rapture believers commonly propose will exist for those who will saved during the great tribulation … again these people will have to be saved despite the absence of a church to preach the gospel or a Holy Spirit to perform regeneration) or 2) death. Do not let the “death” option astonish you, but instead study the scriptures, especially the Old Testament but also in the New Testament. It is a consistent theme that death is a way of being preserved, saved, spared from times of great evil … to be absent from the troubles of this world and present with God! Perhaps the best example of this is the death of Abijah, son of the wicked king Jeroboam, who died according to God’s will so that he would not be corrupted by Jeroboam and also not share in their judgment in 1 Kings 14. A New Testament example: at the time that he wrote Philippians 1:20-26, Paul viewed death as being removed from the extremely trying circumstances that he was living and exchanging it for a better fate. In that passage Paul stated “to die is gain”, but it appears that the rapture adherents have transformed it into “to be raptured is gain.”

So, the idea that there must be a rapture in order for Christians to be spared martyrdom seems to be inconsistent with Biblical revelation. It is also an idea that only makes sense for Christians living in the west. Practically everywhere else in the world, Christians face persecution: marginalization, poverty, disease, imprisonment, death. There are two doctrinal systems that have the effect of promoting the idea western Christians should have no part in what Christians in Indonesia, China, Iran, Palestine (and Israel!), India and Mexico (where Roman Catholic/pagan syncretists are persecuting Protestants) by simple right of geography of birth: pretribulation rapture and covenant theology. Pretribulation rapture teaches that Christians not currently under persecution now will never have to face it, because persecution will only come to “the good parts of the world” (i.e. “Christian nations” or “western nations” or “non-socialist nations” … you know, what Glenn Beck was referring to) when the anti-Christ (which 8% of New Jersey residents regard Obama to be) takes over it.

Now ask yourselves … why is it that Christians can be persecuted in some places (including Israel … and read this too!) now without the anti-Christ, but it requires the anti-Christ to happen in others (especially America)? Or that the saints in other places (and times, including in the west … remember the 30 Years War and the Anabaptists?) are not spared persecution, but only the modern American saints are? Only the idea that contemporary western (especially American and possibly British!) Christians are somehow better than Christians living in other times and places, and this fact would be due to America having some special status before God as a unique elect covenant nation, giving us special status within the Body of Christ. Of course, the Bible makes it clear in the Roman and Corinthian epistles that there is no special group or people with a special status, special favor, or special standing before God in the Body of Christ, but instead that we are one Body. Further, the Bible makes it clear that those who are accounted greater according to rank or authority (not standing or value) demonstrate this through being servant roles that cause us to A) serve those who are of lesser rank and authority and B) endure even greater persecution than those who are of lesser rank and authority. So, even if America did have some special standing before God, instead of our being wealthy decadent privileged Laodiceans, we would be poor, oppressed and serving everybody else! If you deny this, read the Beatitudes of Jesus Christ!

Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. (Keep in mind, the version in Luke reads “Blessed are the POOR!”)
Blessed are they that mourn: for they shall be comforted.
Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.
Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.
Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy.
Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.
Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God.
Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness’ sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.
Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.

The Word of God for the people of God. Glory be to God.

Now earlier I mentioned the covenant theologians, from whom the modern concept of the “Christian nation” originated. Covenant theologians believe – or at least believed – that people in “Christian nations” would or should be spared persecution only because in a church-state Christians would control the government, economy, military, police, and religion in a theocracy after the manner of Old Testament Israel. That is why such extreme theonomists and reconstructionists as Gary North and Rousas John (R. J.) Rushdoony deny that the Beatitudes and the Sermon on the Mount apply to Christians, instead stating that it only applied to Jews living in that time. (Curiously, hyperdispensationalists believe the same.) While I believe the covenant theology position to be in error, this statement is aimed primarily at premillennnial dispensationalists.

So if America were this special, Christian nation, it would be marked by our poverty and service, not by our decadent delusions of religious nobility which makes us believe that we are somehow exempt from the sufferings of Christians living in Belarus or Namibia, or for that matter the Christians of the early church. After all, when Paul wrote his statement insisting that those in the Body of Christ were equals, the statements were direct AGAINST two groups of people: the Jewish Christians in the Roman church and the wealthy Christians in the Corinthian church. The Jewish Christians regarded themselves to be superior to the Gentile Christians because of nationality, and the wealthy Corinthian Christians regarded themselves as superior to the poorer believers because of their riches. The Holy Spirit inspired Paul to tell both groups that they were wrong. So, then, how can we justify believing that a rapture will come and rescue us from the type of persecutions and deaths at the hands of Muslims that are going on all over the Middle East, Asia and Africa right now, such as the two million Christians that were killed in Sudan, many of whom were tortured, raped, doused with gasoline and set on fire, had their limbs chopped off, or were sold as slaves because they refused to renounce Christianity?

Ironically, the world, including the media, the activists, and the government of our own “Christian nation”, did their level best to ignore this genocide, choosing instead to focus on Muslims murdering other Muslims in Darfur. And let us not forget that the term for which the word genocide was originally invented and applied to, that of the Armenians by the Turks, is still not recognized as such by the U.N. or by the government of our “Christian nation.” It is still more ironic when you consider that the Armenian genocide happened in the same general area that the letters in Revelation were sent, in the Turkey region. That persecution kicked off what was the bloodiest period of Christian persecution in history, the 20th century, that saw 45.5 million Christians killed!

So if there were any geographical or political entity within the Body of Christ that had special status, it would be those Christians because of their poverty and persecution who would come first, not us . It is those to whom the Beatitudes of Jesus Christ were addressed, and premillennial dispensationalism completely rejects that truth for the belief that the rapture will save Christians not yet under persecution from ever having to experience it because the saints who have it easier are the ones who fulfill Revelation 3:10! Never mind that the rich church that was not facing persecution was Laodicea, and the church that Revelation 3:10 was addressed to was Philadelphia. Why was the promise of Revelation 3:10 given to the Philadelphians? It is in Revelation 3:8, which reads “I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name.” The Philadelphia Christians were being persecuted, and similar to the Sudanese Christians, they refused to yield to the persecution by denying Jesus Christ. In other words, they refused to do the same as the apostle Peter did THREE TIMES before he was empowered by the Holy Spirit, yet dispensationalism teaches that this Holy Spirit will be taken away, and those converted during the great tribulation will have to face the greatest time of sorrows ever without it, and will yet somehow stand? How? Why? Because of their free will? Or because of their inherently good human nature untainted by original sin? Followers of Reformed/Calvinist believers in the rapture like John MacArthur and Albert Pendarvis (the latter’s bookstore sells the Scofield Reference Bible) have to answer these questions! In any event, those who claim that Revelation 3:10 refers to Christians being raptured to escape persecution have to deal with the fact that the text was in reference to a Philadelphia church that was enduring it!

Make no mistake. I believe in a bodily literal return of Jesus Christ which I believe will occur after a literal great tribulation which will include a literal and personal anti-Christ. However, I also believe that the church will endure this tribulation, and that we need to be preparing ourselves and those who will follow us in the faith for it in a manner that is consistent with scripture as opposed to believing that we – or our WESTERN descendants – will have an experience of escaping it that will be unique to Christians living in other times and places. At the very least, someone must explain why western Christians alone should enjoy this pleasure!

The Three Step Salvation Plan

Advertisements

Posted in Christian Persecution, Christian persecution America, Christian Zionism, Christianity, Christians United For Israel, church hypocrisy, church state, church worldliness, Jesus Christ | Tagged: , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , | 10 Comments »

WHAT BARACK HUSSEIN OBAMA SPENDING FATHER’S DAY AT AN APOSTOLIC CHURCH OF GOD MEANS!

Posted by Job on June 14, 2008

All Hussein Obama needs to do to win this thing is to start talking about black illegitimacy and cultural dysfunction in a serious way. Seriously, THAT IT ALL HE HAS TO DO. Funny that the Wall Street Journal, a major organ of the globalist elite – which really has not attacked Obama in any serious way, which is curious as even Fox News’ “attacks” on Obama have been silly stuff like “terrorist fist jab” and “Michelle Obama is Barack’s baby mama” that are more likely to make people vote FOR the guy than AGAINST him – has not attacked the fellow either. But what has the Wall Street Journal done? Well Juan Williams, who like Barack HUSSEIN Obama whose ancestors are not from America and JUST HAPPENS TO BE THE LONGTIME TOKEN BLACK LIBERAL VOICE ON FOX NEWS, has penned this Father’s  Day piece bemoaning the illegitimacy problem, including in the black community: The Tragedy of America’s Disappearing Fathers

One day, in a juvenile facility near his home in Jersey City, a 15-year-old black boy pulled him aside for a whispered question: Why did he write in “Somewhere in the Darkness” about a boy not meeting his father because the father was in jail? Mr. Myers, a 70-year-old black man, did not answer. He waited. And sure enough, the boy, eyes down, mumbled that he had yet to meet his own father, who was in jail.

Obama family at new Chicago church for Fathers Day. First time out since quitting Trinity United Church of Christ

WASHINGTON–The Obama family has a tradiiton of going to church on Fathers Day; that’s what Sen. Barack Obama (D-Ill.), the presumptive Democratic nominee told Jimmy Kimmel when he taped an interview with the talk show host on Friday. But the Obama family quit Trinity United Church of Christ a week ago, in the wake of divisive comments by the Rev. Jeremiah Wright and Father Michael Pfleger. Where to go? This Sunday, the Obamas leave their Kenwood home on a landmark block on Chicago’s South Side to attend church at the nearby Apostolic Church of God, 6320 Dorchester Ave.

But Obama will have to work on Fathers Day. Obama will “speak about the responsibilities we have as fathers and parents to help our children achieve their dreams,” his campaign said. Parental responsibility is a theme Obama has sounded before.

Last February, in Beaumont,Texas, Obama drew wild cheers as he told a mostly African-American crowd that parents need to shape up, turn off the TV, help their kids with their homework and stop letting them grow fat eating Popeyes chicken for breakfast.

“It’s not good enough for you to say to your child, ‘Do good in school,’ and then when that child comes home, you got the TV set on, you got the radio on, you don’t check their homework, there is not a book in the house, you’ve got the video game playing,” said Obama.

FOOTNOTE: Dr. Byron Brazier, a minister at the Apostolic Church of God, ran as an Obama delegate from the seventh congressional district in Illinois.

LINK to Lynn Sweet column about Obama using bully pulpit in Texas telling parents to shape up and cut out the Popeyes.

I always felt that all Al Gore had to do in order to beat George W. Bush in 2000 was to talk about illegitimacy. A lot of people do not remember this about Gore, but the guy was a “conservative family values Democrat” along the lines of Gary Condit during most of his career in the House and Senate … the Gores are the ones responsible for the little parental advisory stickers on rock and rap music CDs. Just like all John Kerry had to do to beat George W. Bush in 2004 was talk about Bush’s connections to Saudi Arabia OR challenge him on getting Usama bin Laden. The fact that neither Gore or Kerry did EITHER made me question whether either guy really wanted to win – or was supposed to win. If Obama does not start talking about black illegitimacy, all it will mean is that McCain was the guy selected by the various groups that both candidates AND Hillary Clinton are meeting with (Bilderbergs, Rothschilds, Soros, CFR, et al) to occupy the White House. My current theory: if these folks choose McCain, it will be to continue the warfare against CERTAIN MUSLIMS in the Middle East, Asia, and Africa for the next four years. If these folks choose Obama, it will mean that they have decided to be conciliatory towards CERTAIN MUSLIMS. Of course, that means that Obama will be used to wage POLITICAL and CULTURAL war against CERTAIN CHRISTIANS. What sort am I speaking of? Brother IndependentConservative has one example: Legal Persecution of Christians in the West Has Begun.. Sword At The Ready has another: Biblical message now criminalized – Penalties created for those who criticize homosexuality. And I recall one of my first posts on this site when it was created last year: Here It Comes: The First Law To LEGALLY ENCODE CHRISTIAN PERSECUTION IN AMERICA

Please keep in mind that there is NO WAY that Turkey would be considering joining the EU had the European Union not totally cast off its Christian heritage and culture. Not that I advocate making Christianity worldly through heritage and culture, but still for outsiders that know nothing of the true spiritual nature of Christianity and HAVE BEEN LED BY THOUSANDS OF YEARS EVERYONE RANGING FROM POPES TO CRUSADERS TO RELIGIOUS RIGHT DOMINIONISTS INTO FALSELY EQUATING CHRISTIANITY WITH GOVERNMENT AND CULTURE BECAUSE MIXING GOVERNMENT AND CULTURE IS A KEY FEATURE OF OTHER RELIGIONS I.E. ISLAM, JUDAISM, AND HINDUISM AS WELL AS OTHER IDEOLOGIES LIKE DEMOCRACY AND MARXISM, the “Christian nation” thing is offputting. But you know that the rest of the world associates Christianity with white people, capitalism, imperialism/colonialism, and traditional European culture and values. Electing the son of a Kenyan Muslim whose false Jesus Christ promoted abortion, homosexuality, Marxism, and universalism would fulfill the dreams of the Harlem renaissance writer that rejected Christianity for Marxism Langston Hughes. This fellow wrote “Goodbye Jesus Christ” (see a commentary at John Piper’s SeeingGod.org on the fellow and his departure from Jesus Christ for black history month), and then penned this Marxist vision for America: Let America Be America Again. (Please realize that like all of W.E.B. Du Bois “Harlem Renaissance” cronies, Hughes was a mere Marxist propagandist, a fact that you will never hear in public schools or in the mainstream media.)

So, Obama’s visiting theologically conservative black churches – including that of James Meeks and Byron Brazier … the media lumps him into the same category of Jeremiah Wright and Michael Pfleger despite the fact that Meeks is actually a conservative evangelical – may be laying the groundwork for HUSSEIN Obama to stake out socially and culturally conservative positions for the black community similar to those of Bill Cosby that will please all but the most extreme elements of the left. And if the extreme elements of the left, the “a woman needs a man like a fish needs a bicycle” and the “marriage oppresses women and children” crowd (yes these people actually do exist … see

Father’s Day really is the most disgusting thing imaginable. Mother’s Day started out as a women’s anti-War protest, but there is no even slightly justifiable reason for Father’s Day, other than stuffing more commodities that no one wants down the exhausted and overstretched maw of the American people. Hideous! Lets all work for and look forward to the destruction of the Family, Private Property and Irrational Religion.

  on this post) and Obama will actually appear moderate, which is what he needs to win the election. It would be his, well, “Sister Souljah moment.” So keep an eye on the campaign. If this does not happen, then McCain will win and Christians can expect the U.S. to fight directly and by proxy more wars in the Middle East, Asia, Africa, and around the world which will result not only in more violence but more inflation, poverty, and economic insecurity. But if it does happen, Obama will win, and a full push to make Biblical Christianity basically illegal will commence. That is why I say that Christians should vote for NEITHER, because the result would be voting for Stalin or Hitler.  

Posted in Jesus Christ | Tagged: , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , | 1 Comment »

 
%d bloggers like this: