Now Amos 3:3 says “Can two walk together, except they be agreed?” Now please note below how Mormons, Jehovah’s Witnesses, Unitarian Messianic Jews, and Oneness Pentecostals all use the same lies, and they all call true Bible – believing Christians apostates. (Incidentally, Muslims claim much the same.) Since they all agree on the same points and use the same exact terminology and historical/theological distortions and outright scriptural omissions, are they all correct? Or have they all been seduced by the same lying demons? It would be one thing if Mormonism, Jehovah’s Witnesses, Unitarian Jews, and Oneness Pentecostals all had similar religions, practices, and beliefs. But they do not. Their religions, practices, and beliefs ALL WILDLY DIVERGE. THE ONLY THING THAT THEY HAVE IN COMMON IS THAT THEY ALL USE THE SAME ARGUMENTS TO DENY TRINITY AND USE THE SAME LANGUAGE TO DESCRIBE THOSE WHO BELIEVE IN IT. See below. So, you heretics, all of you rejoice that you have joined together in opposition to God’s Tri – Unity. Compliment each other on how you all are right. Join together, and respect each other’s beliefs, and be comforted in the fact that despite all of your differences, at least you all share THAT in common. There is no reason to push each other away! Come together. Sit at the same table! Break bread together, drink wine (or grape juice as it were) while you hash out your disagreements. Do not be “harsh” (as you accuse me) or “judgmental” (as you accuse me). Only God can judge, right? Well let me tell you something, all you people living in agreement of apostasy, God WILL judge, and the result of that will be your burning in the lake of fire forever. And it is my duty to warn you, and this is part of that process. Now I invite all of you to participate in this discussion, but in doing so please give a long hard thought about how you Mormons, Jehovah’s Witnesses, and unitarian “Christians” all manage to be in such agreement on so many things, and the implications of that fact.
This is the Mormon claim that the Tri – Unity of God is a lie given by Mormon VB in a comment: “A few hundred years after Christ’s departure and the death of his apostles there was a great division among the various churches and their leaders that had developed since and many Pagan traditions had snuck in to some of the various church’s beliefs. There were six years of disputation and frequent appeals to the emperor, but finally the leaders of the various groups came together at the Council at Nicea in 325 A.D. to try to come to a unity on the topic of various issues, the understanding of the nature of God among them. Various theories were put out there for review for the people to dissect and argue their points with great zeal and eventually settled on the Trinity idea. Kind of reminds me of the Senate and how they come to an agreement on an issue…you know, put in this idea and take out that idea, take a vote on it and if it doesn’t fly go after it again. There was no spiritual revelation to come to this conclusion. Just contentious rantings and then settling for this theory first, which isn’t the Trinity one as it stands today: “We believe in one God, the Father Almighty, creator of all things visible and invisible; and in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, only begotten of the Father, that is, of the substance of the Father, God of God, Light of Light, very God of very God, begotten, not made, being of the same substance with the Father, by whom all things were made in heaven and in earth, carnate, was made man, suffered, rose again the third day, ascended into the heavens, and He will come to judge the living and the dead; and in the Holy Ghost. Those who say there was a time when He was not, and He was not before He was begotten, and He was made of nothing (he was created), or who say that He is of another hypostatis, or of another substance (than the Father), or that the Son of God is created, that he is mutable, or subject to change, the Catholic church anathematezes.” Then more rantings, shameful conflicts, clashes and arguments came about and this one was settled on as one of the symbols of the orthodox Christian faith: “We worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity, neither confounding the persons nor dividing the substance. For there is one person of the Father, another of the Son, and another of the Holy Ghost. But the Godhead of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost is all one; the glory equal, the majesty co-eternal. Such as the Father is, such is the Son, and such is the Holy Ghost. The father uncreate, the Son uncreate, and the Holy Ghost uncreate. The Father incomprehensible, the Son incomprehensible, and the Holy Ghost incomprehensible. The Father eternal, the Son eternal, and the Holy Ghost eternal. And yet there are not three eternals, but one eternal. As also there are not three incomprehensibles, nor three uncreate, but one uncreate and one incomprhensible. So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Ghost is God; and yet there are not three Gods, but one God.” Well that’s about as clear as mud. It is obvious they weren’t reading the apostle’s writings and applying them to their conclusion. The simple doctrine of the Christian Godhead, set forth in the New Testament is corrupted by the meaningless jargon of these creeds, and their explanations. Later there was another change made by the Church of England that says “that there is but one living and true God everlasting, without body, parts, or passions, of infinite power, wisdom and goodness.” So what part of the Trinity idea do you ascribe to or do you have your own theory? The Trinity believers are definitely stuck on the three = “one” idea and taking it literally. Mark in the New Testament says that after Jesus’ ascension that Jesus “…was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God” Mark 16:19. If the Father and Jesus are one individual (excuse me, spirit in your view), how can they be seen separately when they are together? Then we learn about what the Prophet Stephen saw and experienced in Act 7:55: “But he (Stephen), being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God.” It is clear here that all three of them (God the Father, Jesus and the Holy Ghost) are very separate from each other. They each have their individuality but share a common goal and do different things to accomplish the goal. The short description of their purposes are: The Holy Ghost’s job is to testify of God the Father and Jesus Christ. Christ’s job is to glorify his father by doing all his father asks of him and the Father’s job is to be the Father of us all. When Jesus tells the people that he would like it if “…they (the people) may be one, as we (he and the Father) are” in John 17:11, does that mean that all the believers will literally become part of the Trinity? The Trinity would then need to be called the “Infinity” if that were the case. No, he was talking about one in purpose, just as he and his father are one in purpose.”
Here is Oneness Pentecostal Sue:
“It is encouraging that more people are being made aware of the theology regarding the nature of the Godhead: Shema Israel Adonai Elohenu, Adonai Ehad. Some serious research into oneness theology versus trinitarian history would serve well. To deny the very essence of God by splitting Him up into three separate but distinct persons has been the nature of many false belief systems beginning in Babylon (Father, Mother & Child), Egypt (Osiris, Isis & Horus)and other Eastern religions that today have a Trinity, Hinduism (Brahma, Shiva & Vishnu) which is represented by a statue of God with three heads. Buddhism also has the doctrine of trikaya; the worship of a three-headed statue of Buddha. Is this three-headed “Christianity” any different? It’s the same polytheistic tri-God worship with different faces. Greek philosophers offered us the worship of the Archaic Triad when it was found necessary to reduce the number of their gods to three being Jupiter, Mars & Quirinus during the Roman Empire. This was later replaced by the Capitoline triad being Jupiter, Juno & Minerva. Plato was the developer of the Timaeus theory teaching that the number 3 was near diagrammatical perfections and based on this theroy furthered the concept. It was only natural in establishing Roman Catholicism that the intermarriage of polytheistic triune serving heathens would find it necessary to create a tritheistic godhead to serve as they became nominal Christians. The apostles understood that Jesus was God come in flesh (Isaiah 9:6 “….the mighty God, the everlasting Father…”) and to worship a second person in place of, or in addition to, God was to openly disregard the first commandment and the Shema.”
Unitarian Jew (who call Yeshua HaMashiach Messiah but not God) Baruch:
“Your message does not work! You know why? Because your form of writing is violent, harsh and impatient and very much not the way to tell your own beliefs to others. You judge people! The people who have a hard time to believe Yeshua was really HaShem have a point! There are lots of passages in the New Testament that tell He is not G-d. The thing is we have to believe He is the Mashiach and only Savior and that G-d is the One BEHIND Him, the One that works THROUGH Him. This means He’s not G-d in your way, He was a MAN (the NT tells this everywhere!)! There’s ONE G-d and ONE Lord and Mediator, the MAN Yeshua HaMashiach! The Trinity or Tri-Unity is from the Church and can’t be found in the NT nor Tanach. Thing is if you don’t believe that it was G-d working and speaking through the man Yeshua, there’s a problem! If you tell Yeshua was G-d, you have to admit that the Roman Church was right: there do exist G-dmurder and a Mother of G-d, G-d died on the Cross, G-d cried out to Himself ‘My G-d My G-d why have your forsaken me?’. This is blasphemy! G-d cannot die because He is a Living G-d, Eternally! His Son Yeshua died and resurrected by the Power of HaShem three days later! He was that Righteous that gave His Life for the World! Listen brother, I totally believe the Gospel and I trust the LORD Jesus Christ, Yeshua HaMashiach that He died and rose for ME and all people. There are however some texts you are citing that are not in my Bible nor in the Greek texts. For exampe 1 John 5:7 is made up later. Don’t you know that G-d told He is ONE (ECHAD)? That’s what the people have to accept rather than putting Him into boxes. People should know better. Believing that G-d is One and leaving mysteries over to Him is a better way than forcing people to believe in ‘the dogma of Trinity’. Didn’t He tell Moses to tell the people that ‘I will be that I will be’ send Him? Yes He did. This so clearly tells us not to put G-d into our own dogmatic boxes. Jesus also proclaimed the Shema (Hear O Israel, the LORD our G-d is ONE) as the first and foremost commandment. He talked about ‘My G-d and your G-d, my Father and your Father’, ‘The Father is more than I am’, ‘Why are you saying I’m good? For there’s only One that’s Good.’, etc.
I am totally aware that we need to accept the Gospel as ‘children’, but that does not mean that we do not have to study the Word. It’s not just about being guided by the Spirit of the LORD G-d alone. It’s always a combination of the Spirit and DEEDS/ACTION. Faith without works is dead according to Jacob. Did you know that everywhere where Yeshua and Paul and the others are talking about the WORD of the LORD G-d, they mean the Torah (and Prophets and Writings)? Read it, in Hebrew and find out more truths. You are actually telling me to believe your way, because if I believe like I do I will go to hell. That’s the christian way of evangelizing! I’m sorry, but you bother me with this a lot. As I started my posting I do REALLY 1000% believe that Jesus is my only Way and Savior (actually G-d is, through the man Jesus!), but some views need to be altered after such a long time in which christianity has been here, stating to be the only and superior religion!
May the LORD G-d Bless You Richly and you Grant the SHALOM of Mashiach Yeshua”
Now THIS is from the Jehovah’s Witness website:
“AT THIS point you might ask: ‘If the Trinity is not a Biblical teaching, how did it become a doctrine of Christendom?’ Many think that it was formulated at the Council of Nicaea in 325 C.E. That is not totally correct, however. The Council of Nicaea did assert that Christ was of the same substance as God, which laid the groundwork for later Trinitarian theology. But it did not establish the Trinity, for at that council there was no mention of the holy spirit as the third person of a triune Godhead. Constantine’s Role at Nicaea FOR many years, there had been much opposition on Biblical grounds to the developing idea that Jesus was God. To try to solve the dispute, Roman emperor Constantine summoned all bishops to Nicaea. About 300, a fraction of the total, actually attended. Constantine was not a Christian. Supposedly, he converted later in life, but he was not baptized until he lay dying. Regarding him, Henry Chadwick says in The Early Church: “Constantine, like his father, worshipped the Unconquered Sun; . . . his conversion should not be interpreted as an inward experience of grace . . . It was a military matter. His comprehension of Christian doctrine was never very clear, but he was sure that victory in battle lay in the gift of the God of the Christians.” What role did this unbaptized emperor play at the Council of Nicaea? The Encyclopædia Britannica relates: “Constantine himself presided, actively guiding the discussions, and personally proposed . . . the crucial formula expressing the relation of Christ to God in the creed issued by the council, ‘of one substance with the Father’ . . . Overawed by the emperor, the bishops, with two exceptions only, signed the creed, many of them much against their inclination.” ‘Fourth century Trinitarianism was a deviation from early Christian teaching.’ —The Encyclopedia Americana Hence, Constantine’s role was crucial. After two months of furious religious debate, this pagan politician intervened and decided in favor of those who said that Jesus was God. But why? Certainly not because of any Biblical conviction. “Constantine had basically no understanding whatsoever of the questions that were being asked in Greek theology,” says A Short History of Christian Doctrine. What he did understand was that religious division was a threat to his empire, and he wanted to solidify his domain. None of the bishops at Nicaea promoted a Trinity, however. They decided only the nature of Jesus but not the role of the holy spirit. If a Trinity had been a clear Bible truth, should they not have proposed it at that time? Further Development AFTER Nicaea, debates on the subject continued for decades. Those who believed that Jesus was not equal to God even came back into favor for a time. But later Emperor Theodosius decided against them. He established the creed of the Council of Nicaea as the standard for his realm and convened the Council of Constantinople in 381 C.E. to clarify the formula. That council agreed to place the holy spirit on the same level as God and Christ. For the first time, Christendom’s Trinity began to come into focus. Yet, even after the Council of Constantinople, the Trinity did not become a widely accepted creed. Many opposed it and thus brought on themselves violent persecution. It was only in later centuries that the Trinity was formulated into set creeds. The Encyclopedia Americana notes: “The full development of Trinitarianism took place in the West, in the Scholasticism of the Middle Ages, when an explanation was undertaken in terms of philosophy and psychology.” The Athanasian Creed Norwegian Triad Norway. Trinity (Father, Son, holy spirit), c. 13th century C.E. THE Trinity was defined more fully in the Athanasian Creed. Athanasius was a clergyman who supported Constantine at Nicaea. The creed that bears his name declares: “We worship one God in Trinity . . . The Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Ghost is God; and yet they are not three gods, but one God.” Well-informed scholars agree, however, that Athanasius did not compose this creed. The New Encyclopædia Britannica comments: “The creed was unknown to the Eastern Church until the 12th century. Since the 17th century, scholars have generally agreed that the Athanasian Creed was not written by Athanasius (died 373) but was probably composed in southern France during the 5th century. . . . The creed’s influence seems to have been primarily in southern France and Spain in the 6th and 7th centuries. It was used in the liturgy of the church in Germany in the 9th century and somewhat later in Rome.” So it took centuries from the time of Christ for the Trinity to become widely accepted in Christendom. And in all of this, what guided the decisions? Was it the Word of God, or was it clerical and political considerations? In Origin and Evolution of Religion, E. W. Hopkins answers: “The final orthodox definition of the trinity was largely a matter of church politics.” Apostasy Foretold THIS disreputable history of the Trinity fits in with what Jesus and his apostles foretold would follow their time. They said that there would be an apostasy, a deviation, a falling away from true worship until Christ’s return, when true worship would be restored before God’s day of destruction of this system of things. “The Triad of the Great Gods” Many centuries before the time of Christ, there were triads, or trinities, of gods in ancient Babylonia and Assyria. The French “Larousse Encyclopedia of Mythology” notes one such triad in that Mesopotamian area: “The universe was divided into three regions each of which became the domain of a god. Anu’s share was the sky. The earth was given to Enlil. Ea became the ruler of the waters. Together they constituted the triad of the Great Gods.” Regarding that “day,” the apostle Paul said: “It will not come unless the apostasy comes first and the man of lawlessness gets revealed.” (2 Thessalonians 2:3, 7) Later, he foretold: “When I have gone fierce wolves will invade you and will have no mercy on the flock. Even from your own ranks there will be men coming forward with a travesty of the truth on their lips to induce the disciples to follow them.” (Acts 20:29, 30, JB) Other disciples of Jesus also wrote of this apostasy with its ‘lawless’ clergy class.—See, for example, 2 Peter 2:1; 1 John 4:1-3; Jude 3, 4. Paul also wrote: “The time is sure to come when, far from being content with sound teaching, people will be avid for the latest novelty and collect themselves a whole series of teachers according to their own tastes; and then, instead of listening to the truth, they will turn to myths.”—2 Timothy 4:3, 4, JB. Jesus himself explained what was behind this falling away from true worship. He said that he had sowed good seeds but that the enemy, Satan, would oversow the field with weeds. So along with the first blades of wheat, the weeds appeared also. Thus, a deviation from pure Christianity was to be expected until the harvest, when Christ would set matters right. (Matthew 13:24-43) The Encyclopedia Americana comments: “Fourth century Trinitarianism did not reflect accurately early Christian teaching regarding the nature of God; it was, on the contrary, a deviation from this teaching.” Where, then, did this deviation originate?—1 Timothy 1:6. What Influenced It Triune Hindu godhead India. Triune Hindu godhead, c. 7th century C.E. THROUGHOUT the ancient world, as far back as Babylonia, the worship of pagan gods grouped in threes, or triads, was common. That influence was also prevalent in Egypt, Greece, and Rome in the centuries before, during, and after Christ. And after the death of the apostles, such pagan beliefs began to invade Christianity. Historian Will Durant observed: “Christianity did not destroy paganism; it adopted it. . . . From Egypt came the ideas of a divine trinity.” And in the book Egyptian Religion, Siegfried Morenz notes: “The trinity was a major preoccupation of Egyptian theologians . . . Three gods are combined and treated as a single being, addressed in the singular. In this way the spiritual force of Egyptian religion shows a direct link with Christian theology.” French Triune godhead France. Trinity, c. 14th century C.E. (1) Thus, in Alexandria, Egypt, churchmen of the late third and early fourth centuries, such as Athanasius, reflected this influence as they formulated ideas that led to the Trinity. Their own influence spread, so that Morenz considers “Alexandrian theology as the intermediary between the Egyptian religious heritage and Christianity.” In the preface to Edward Gibbon’s History of Christianity, we read: “If Paganism was conquered by Christianity, it is equally true that Christianity was corrupted by Paganism. The pure Deism of the first Christians . . . was changed, by the Church of Rome, into the incomprehensible dogma of the trinity. Many of the pagan tenets, invented by the Egyptians and idealized by Plato, were retained as being worthy of belief.” Italian Triune godhead Italy. Trinity, c. 15th century C.E. (2) A Dictionary of Religious Knowledge notes that many say that the Trinity “is a corruption borrowed from the heathen religions, and ingrafted on the Christian faith.” And The Paganism in Our Christianity declares: “The origin of the [Trinity] is entirely pagan.” That is why, in the Encyclopædia of Religion and Ethics, James Hastings wrote: “In Indian religion, e.g., we meet with the trinitarian group of Brahma, Siva, and Visnu; and in Egyptian religion with the trinitarian group of Osiris, Isis, and Horus . . . Nor is it only in historical religions that we find God viewed as a Trinity. One recalls in particular the Neo-Platonic view of the Supreme or Ultimate Reality,” which is “triadically represented.” What does the Greek philosopher Plato have to do with the Trinity Platonism PLATO, it is thought, lived from 428 to 347 before Christ. While he did not teach the Trinity in its present form, his philosophies paved the way for it. Later, philosophical movements that included triadic beliefs sprang up, and these were influenced by Plato’s ideas of God and nature. German Triune godhead Germany. Trinity, 20th century C.E.The French Nouveau Dictionnaire Universel (New Universal Dictionary) says of Plato’s influence: “The Platonic trinity, itself merely a rearrangement of older trinities dating back to earlier peoples, appears to be the rational philosophic trinity of attributes that gave birth to the three hypostases or divine persons taught by the Christian churches. . . . This Greek philosopher’s conception of the divine trinity . . . can be found in all the ancient [pagan] religions.” The New Schaff-Herzog Encyclopedia of Religious Knowledge shows the influence of this Greek philosophy: “The doctrines of the Logos and the Trinity received their shape from Greek Fathers, who . . . were much influenced, directly or indirectly, by the Platonic philosophy . . . That errors and corruptions crept into the Church from this source can not be denied.” The Church of the First Three Centuries says: “The doctrine of the Trinity was of gradual and comparatively late formation; . . . it had its origin in a source entirely foreign from that of the Jewish and Christian Scriptures; . . . it grew up, and was ingrafted on Christianity, through the hands of the Platonizing Fathers.” By the end of the third century C.E., “Christianity” and the new Platonic philosophies became inseparably united. As Adolf Harnack states in Outlines of the History of Dogma, church doctrine became “firmly rooted in the soil of Hellenism [pagan Greek thought]. Thereby it became a mystery to the great majority of Christians.” The church claimed that its new doctrines were based on the Bible. But Harnack says: “In reality it legitimized in its midst the Hellenic speculation, the superstitious views and customs of pagan mystery-worship.” In the book A Statement of Reasons, Andrews Norton says of the Trinity: “We can trace the history of this doctrine, and discover its source, not in the Christian revelation, but in the Platonic philosophy . . . The Trinity is not a doctrine of Christ and his Apostles, but a fiction of the school of the later Platonists.” Thus, in the fourth century C.E., the apostasy foretold by Jesus and the apostles came into full bloom. Development of the Trinity was just one evidence of this. The apostate churches also began embracing other pagan ideas, such as hellfire, immortality of the soul, and idolatry. Spiritually speaking, Christendom had entered its foretold dark ages, dominated by a growing “man of lawlessness” clergy class.—2 Thessalonians 2:3, 7. Hindu Trinity The book “The Symbolism of Hindu Gods and Rituals” says regarding a Hindu trinity that existed centuries before Christ: “Siva is one of the gods of the Trinity. He is said to be the god of destruction. The other two gods are Brahma, the god of creation and Vishnu, the god of maintenance. . . . To indicate that these three processes are one and the same the three gods are combined in one form.”—Published by A. Parthasarathy, Bombay. Why Did God’s Prophets Not Teach It? WHY, for thousands of years, did none of God’s prophets teach his people about the Trinity? At the latest, would Jesus not use his ability as the Great Teacher to make the Trinity clear to his followers? Would God inspire hundreds of pages of Scripture and yet not use any of this instruction to teach the Trinity if it were the “central doctrine” of faith?Are Christians to believe that centuries after Christ and after having inspired the writing of the Bible, God would back the formulation of a doctrine that was unknown to his servants for thousands of years, one that is an “inscrutable mystery” “beyond the grasp of human reason,” one that admittedly had a pagan background and was “largely a matter of church politics”?The testimony of history is clear: The Trinity teaching is a deviation from the truth, an apostatizing from it.”