Jesus Christ Is Lord

That every knee should bow and every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father!

“I don’t understand Election” Paul Washer answers

Posted by Job on August 31, 2009

20 Responses to ““I don’t understand Election” Paul Washer answers”

  1. theoldadam said

    He’s right. We don’t want God (dead men do not want anything to do with the things of Life)…

    but He wants us. he calls us through His Spirit and makes us alive in Word and Sacrament.

    We just hate that. We want to play some role. God is trying to kill off our “free will” with respect to Himself and use His will to make us alive again.

    Good post!

  2. John Kaniecki said

    Hi Oldadam,

    Hope you are well.

    I have no audio so I didn’t view the piece.

    What do you mean “alive in Word and Sacrament”.

    I have no problem with the first part but how do you define ‘sacrament’?

    Love,

    John

  3. theoldadam said

    John K.,

    Since we do not make ourselves alive, God has to do it. He does this by the hearing of His gospel, and by the external Word that comes to us, from outside of ourselves (to us) in the Sacraments of Baptism and Holy Communion.

    He commanded that we do these things (He is the One who actually does them), and he never commanded us to do anything where He would not be there in it, for us.

    Thanks, John!

  4. John Kaniecki said

    Oldadam,

    Hi hope you are well.

    I am always uneasy about words not found in the bible, such as sacrament. I was raised in the Roman Catholic Church, perhaps that’s why it makes me uneasy.

    I don’t think God is trying to kill off our ‘free will’. I think what God wants is for us to conform into the image of His Son. A large part of this is abandoning our carnal ways, that is true. Also we must humble ourselves and let God do His work in us. Yet ultimately it is every individual who must decide whether they will be faithful or rebellious. I believe in election the Bible certainly teaches that. One just needs to read the book of Ephesians on that matter. Still the words of Joshua ring in my ear, “Choose this day whom you will serve: whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell, but as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.”

    Love,

    John

  5. theoldadam said

    John,

    The gospel of John (1:13) makes it quite clear that we do not choose God of our free will.

    “who were born not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.”

    Even Jesus said it himself, “you do not choose me, I chose you.”

    The Bible makes it clear the we are “dead in our sins and trespasses”. Dead men are not capable of choosing anything of God…but are dead.

    When Jesus talks to Niccodemus, he tells Niccodemus he must be born again, from above. And that “the Spirit blows like the wind, where IT will.”

    St. Paul tells us in Romans that “no one seeks for God”.

    Anyway, I could go on, but I think you get the picture.

    Thanks, John.

    PS-

    The word trinity is not found in the Bible either, but it is accepted orthodox Christian doctrine.

    Sacrament just means oath or promise, and that is what the Lord gives us in His supper and in baptism. He gives us His promises. Sacrament. His promise to us, and not the other way around.

  6. John Kaniecki said

    Oldadam,

    Hi hope you are well.

    I do not believe election negates free will.
    1 Timothy 2:4 “Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.” Why then are all not saved?

    The way I look at it is the man can choose and act as he wants. Yet God too is a free agent and He likewise can act. Without God’s action towards us none will be saved. Some are elect as we have discussed before.

    Examine Hebrews 11:6 “But without faith it is impossible to please Him for he that cometh to God must believe that He is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek Him.”

    It is a two way street. God works on us and then we respond. We are not robots that our every action has be predetermined, like some scripted play. True some things have been pre ordained. I firmly believe that for Isreal and the church in general and individuals attaining salvation. I look back on how God did small things which led me to a place where He could lead me to Jesus. Yet ultimately I had to decide to obey otherwise it would not have been faith.

    Love,

    John

  7. theoldadam said

    John,

    I do believe it is one way, or the other.

    Does God save us? Or do we ultimately save ourselves.

    It can’t be a little of me and a lot of God, or a lot of me and a little of God.

    The Scriptures go to great lengths in the passages that I already mentioned, and elsewhere, to say that it is God alone who makes the dead rise, and it is God alone who saves.

    Now, after He calls and chooses us, then we do make a great deal of choices concerning the Christian faith. And we do those those things to a greater or lesser degree of faithfulness, as we are still sinful beings.

    Thanks, my friend!

  8. John Kaniecki said

    Oldadam,

    Hi hope you are well.

    Ephesians 2:8-9 “For by grace ye are saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God. Not of works, lest any man should boast.”

    The Greek word for works is a repeated practice. For example the Lord’s Supper or daily prayer would be a work.

    Grace is a free gift but one must accept that gift. In previous discussion I quoted 1 Timothy 2:4 “Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.”

    So if God desires all to be saved and their is nothing to do for salvation then why are not all saved?

    I wil go into the blood of Christ Hebrews 9:22.
    “…without the shedding of blood there is no remission.”

    Gotta go, very busy these days. I will await comments if any or go on with what I am getting at. It goes down to baptism and what it really is. See Romans 6 and 1 Peter 3.

    Love,

    John

  9. Man did not choose God, but rather it was God who chose as He purposed. No disciple picked Christ. Christ made this clear, there is no debate.

    John 15:16 (New American Standard Bible)

    16 “You did not choose Me but I chose you, and appointed you that you would go and bear fruit, and that your fruit would remain, so that whatever you ask of the Father in My name He may give to you.

    Nobody tried to talk back to God on that. It’s plain. Yes there is a human responsibility to respond to the call, however only those chosen will respond.

  10. John Kaniecki said

    IC,

    Hi hope you are well.

    I am glad you are back. I agree 100% with what you say. The book of Ephesians clearly teaches predestination.

    I do not think predestination conflicts with free will. We all still make a choice. God knowing that choice and even deciding who makes that choice does not negate free will.

    The most important question is how does one respond to the gospel message. A reading of the book of Acts shows people getting baptized. While many say we should ‘pray God into our heart’ or ‘accept Jesus’ I find this very unbiblical. Show me one person saying the ‘sinners prayer’ in the gospels or the book of Acts. Show me one person simply ‘accepting Jesus’after the Church was established.

    Baptism is not a work it is an act of faith.

    IC you and I have touched on this before on this blog. I am open to any comments on this matter, but please refer to scripture.

    Love,

    John

  11. John, I believe those who hear the voice of the Lord and follow Him will do as He commands. So I don’t see any reason why anyone who loves the Lord would turn down water. To do so is to boldly and foolishly reject the command of Christ, to be baptized in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. Baptism is an act of faith, so is giving to the poor, Jesus commanded we do it all and not leave any undone. But they are all actions done with others, they are works carried out in our fleshly bodies.

    What I find most important, is that we encourage anyone who claims to believe in Jesus to do as He commands, including being baptized. However, if someone affirms belief and leaves this life before I can get them to water, I firmly believe God saved them and it was evidenced by their affirmation from their own mouth. (Or other means of affirmation if they are physically disabled in a way that prevents speech.) So long as they were willing to do as the Lord commands, not trying to defiantly stand in rebellion when advised to do something like being baptized. But even if they are willing, they may not make it to water before breathing their final breath in this life and yes the thief on the cross remains a glowing example. Just as someone in a Muslim nation may affirm faith in Christ a moment before being murdered by a mob.

  12. John Kaniecki said

    IC,

    Hi hope you are well.

    The thief on the cross was in the Old Covenant. The church was established in Acts 2. Before and after many things changed. Old Testament for example had many sacrifices. New Testament has only one Jesus, the Lamb of God.

    In Acts those who believe are baptized immeadiately.

    Of course I am not the Judge and I leave it all in my Lord’s hands. The best I can do is learn scripture and teach it without addition or subtraction. When I am perfect you can all get in line and shake my hand. But you won’t be shaking my hand on this Earth.

    But look up that Greek word for works found in the book ofin the Ephesians. It means a repeated action. For example praying, or giving to the poor. Baptism is not a repeated action and thus not qualify as a work.

    Read Romans 6 and give me your thoughts.

    Love,

    John

    • John, we did not agree on this in the past and still won’t.

      I’ll leave you with the fact Jesus and His disciples were fully conducting baptisms as early as John 3:22-26.

      • John Kaniecki said

        IC,

        Hi hope you are well. To be honest that is a scriputre that gives me difficulty. I have heard it said that they were still practicing John’s Baptism. While this may be, I doubt it.

        Anyway Acts 19 clearly shows John’s baptism was not sufficient as the people were rebaptized.

        1 Peter 3:21 shows that Baptism does indeed save us. “The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

        Of course we are to put this text in the context of the New Testament. Baptism is God’s way to respond to the gospel message. I think the book of Acts proves that.

        Finally recall Naaman, the leper who wanted to be cured. Elijah told him to be dipped three times in the river Jordan. Acts 2 clearly shows people preached the gospel message. What should they do? Repent and be baptized for the forgiveness of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit. Let’s listen to God’s Word. Just like Naaman we have to humble ourselves and listen.

        One day we will discuss the blood of the Lamb. Without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sins. We must apply the blood.

        Love,

        John

  13. John Kaniecki said

    IC,

    Hi hope you are well.

    It is certainly nice to see you back, even if for a brief visit. Nobody can make boxes and quote people like you used to do. You are truly one of a kind. Charles and Eden have dissapeared from the blog. One day we will discuss them. Things are not always what they appear to be.

    Love,

    John

    • I certainly pray Charles and Eden are well.

      • Job said

        Welcome back! I pray that you and yours are doing well also. As for me and my family, it is not easy, but God is sustaining and blessing us.

        • We are well, although busy as ever. Thank you for the warm welcome and all, although I can’t say I ever felt as if I’ve “left”😀 .

          The duties of everyday life seem to require more time than ever along with additional local church invovelment, time on blogs is greatly limited.

          But it’s always good to know you folks are still holding onto Jesus Christ. As Peter said in Acts 10, “through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins”. And they received baptism by fire at that very moment, the baptism that does more than get flesh wet, SAVED, even before water😀 .

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