Jesus Christ Is Lord

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Jesus-Is-Savior.com Calls Paul Washer, Ray Comfort And John MacArthur False Preacher Heretics!

Posted by Job on August 28, 2009

Beware of Paul Washer

Paul Washer’s Washed-up Gospel

Paul Washer’s FALSE GOSPEL!

Apparently the Jesus-Is-Savior people disdain all the talk about true Biblical repentance. Looks like another Calvinist/Reformed versus fundamentalist Arminianism debate. The latter is true because in their article denouncing Washer, they endorse Harry Ironside. About this Ironside:

Ironside was born in Toronto, Ontario, Canada, to John and Sophia (Stafford) Ironside, who were both active in the Plymouth Brethren. From a very early age, Ironside showed a strong interest in evangelical Christianity and was active in the Salvation Army as a teenager before later joining the “Grant” section of the Plymouth Brethren. in 1924, Ironside began preaching under the direction of the Moody Bible Institute. In 1926, he was invited to a full-time faculty position at the Dallas Theological Seminary, which he turned down, although he was frequently a visiting lecturer there from 1925 to 1943. After a series of sermons presented at the The Moody Church, in Chicago, he was invited to a one-year trial as head pastor there in 1929. Almost every Sunday that he preached there, the 4,000 seat church was filled to capacity. While there, he continued traveling to other US cities during the week for preaching engagements. In 1932, he expanded his travels internationally. Ironside preached at the 1935 funeral of Billy Sunday, at Moody Church. In 1930, Wheaton College presented Ironside with an honorary Doctorate of Letters degree, and in 1942-06-03 Bob Jones University awarded him an honorary Doctor of Divinity degree. Along with others such as Cyrus Scofield, he was influential in popularizing dispensationalism among Protestants in North America.

This is just an American version of the age old Baptist-Wesleyan (Methodist) dispute of post-Reformation England. In America, the Methodists basically won the debate, with Baptists co-opting many of their doctrines, and premillennial dispensationalism apparently playing a large role in that. It has reached the point where prominent fundamentalists openly denounce historic Protestant doctrines as heretical, while Wesleyan doctrines on soteriology and sanctification are now called the “Biblicist” position, as if Charles Spurgeon, George Whitefield, John Bunyan, and Augustus Strong were ignorant of scripture or something.

The dispensationals refer to the doctrines of Washer to be “Lordship salvation.” Another site directly compares the teachings of John MacArthur to dispensational pioneer and giant Charles Ryrie. On Lordship salvation: “Its basic premise, that Jesus cannot be one’s Savior without also being his Lord, has been taken by some to mean that salvation is attained by works rather than by God’s grace.” The “some” who take this position are falsely distorting Reformed Baptist soteriology, building a straw man and knowingly making a false accusation. “Those who reject lordship salvation (e.g., Ryrie), believe that someone may have genuine faith in Christ, but the fact that he continues in his sin demonstrates that he has not made Jesus his Lord, only his Savior. According to Ryrie, just because someone sins or acts in disobedience (even habitually) doesn’t mean he doesn’t have saving faith.” So, it is the dispensational Ryrie who rejects “faith without works is dead.”

Check out what Ryrie claims. “Second, there is a repentance that is unto eternal salvation. What kind of repentance saves? Not a sorrow for sins or even a sorrow that results in a cleaning up of one’s life. People who reform have repented; that is, they have changed their minds about their past lives, but that kind of repentance, albeit genuine, does not of itself save them. The only kind of repentance that saves is a change of mind about Jesus Christ. People can weep; people can resolve to turn from their past sins; but those things in themselves cannot save. The only kind of repentance that saves anyone, anywhere, anytime is a change of mind about Jesus Christ. The sense of sin and sorrow because of sin may stir up a person’s mind or conscience so that he or she realizes the need for a Savior, but if there is not change of mind about Jesus Christ there will be no salvation” (p. 94, SGS).

“The only kind of repentance that saves is a change of mind about Jesus Christ.” Intellectual regeneration, confessional regeneration, decisional regeneration. Not only that, but a truly radical form of this doctrine that combines both conversion and repentance, which the Bible and historic Protestant doctrine hold refer to two related but separate things, into the single act of decison. Their position – what can be called the modern Wesleyan one that is the basic position of American evangelical Christianity (whether Baptist, Pentecostal, or nondenominational)  is that the free will decision for Jesus Christ is the primary and controlling factor where salvation is concerned. Now in theory – i.e. for systematic doctrinal purposes – the free will decision is not the sole factor. But IN PRACTICE, the decisional regenerationists do not wish to countenance anything that would challenge the  idea that the person who has made a decision for Jesus Christ has to be considered born again.

Now this is the rub. Their objection to those like Washer and MacArthur is not in a SPIRITUAL or DOCTRINAL sense. Objecting in a spiritual sense, where humans can claim to profess with 100% certainty that someone is born again when the Bible says that God knows the heart, is not the sort of Roman Catholic thing that these people are after. And they are also not creating or defending any doctrine to the effect of “if a person accepts Jesus Christ AND REALLY MEANS IT then he is saved.” Instead, their objection is in a practical and ecclesiastical sense. As far as practice is concerned, well listen to enough sermons by Paul Washer, John MacArthur and their fellow travelers long enough and it will be difficult to continue relying on the sinner’s prayer and similar evangelism methods (even if Ray Comfort, who largely shares their beliefs, still does). And in an ecclesiastical sense, their doctrines make it extremely difficult to put someone on a church roll after a decision for Jesus Christ. Washer and MacArthur (if not necessarily Comfort) demand a little more effort, a little extra step out of their evangelism methods and before people are allowed as members of their church in good standing. And even after requiring a little more, Washer and MacArthur regularly and frequently acknowledge that many members of their own churches are not born again.

That is offensive to someone who really, truly believes in decisional regeneration, which quite honestly does teach that a person is regenerated by the Holy Spirit upon their heartfelt decision for Jesus Christ. People who make a decision for Jesus Christ and remain unsaved; their only recourse is to claim that the decision was false, insincere, made without adequate understanding, etc. Further, one cannot spend too much time thinking about just how often these “flawed decisions” (decisions for Jesus Christ that did not result in true conversion) because having to consider a large number of flawed decisions means working out how decisional regeneration works in practice (i.e. methods of producing decisions for Jesus Christ the Holy Spirit will always – or at least almost always – honor) and incorporating that practice into evangelism and ecclesiology.

Now in times past, meaning the earlier Wesleyan and fundamentalist movements who A) taught that one could lose his salvation and B) had a strong moral/ethical/works component, this was not a problem. In those cases, you were dealing with a person who had lost his salvation and needed to confess and apologize for his sins and make a new confession of faith, and further the emphasis on morals and ethics (called “legalism” by some) acted as a control on church culture that reduced the need to have to deal with this unpleasant situation. However, as the modern movements have adopted more Biblical positions concerning the preservation of the saints and on grace, they cannot simply deal with this tough issue by saying “Well he made a valid decision for Jesus Christ, lost his salvation, and needs to be saved anew.” Instead, the position has to either be “he was never saved in the first place because his decision for Jesus Christ was flawed or ineffective” or “he is saved based on his decision for Jesus Christ, but he still has problems with sin.” Now as stated earlier, choose the former and the “decision for Christ” doctrine and the church systems based on it have real problems. So, they have no choice but to choose the latter, even if it means explicitly embracing the idea that a decision for Jesus Christ results in Holy Spirit regeneration in even the absence of Biblical repentance (what the Bible means when it says being “pricked in the heart” in Acts 2:37 and similar) and/or rejecting the Lordship of Jesus Christ (despite the fact that it is plainly impossible to make a decision for Jesus Christ when you do not know the identity or nature of the Jesus Christ that you are making a decision for or what Jesus Christ requires of you; anything less is making a decision to a false Jesus Christ, which is a false god or idol that does not exist and is no god at all).

By making decisional regeneration – or more accurately decisional conversion – the agent that results in the Holy Spirit’s justifying and regenerating a sinner, it makes the human free will decision of Jesus Christ a sacrament, a human ritual or action that imparts God’s grace (or results in God’s deciding to impart grace by honoring the initiative and actions of man). This can be compared to the sacramentalism of the Roman Catholic Church. The Roman Catholic Church claims that by being the body of Christ indwelt by the Holy Spirit (yes, the Roman Catholic Church does teach that the very institution is the body of Jesus Christ and contains within it the power and sovereignty of Jesus Christ) it has vested within it the power and authority to perform rituals that confer grace through its appointed representatives. So, the Roman Catholics believe that rituals performed by their priests save people, because through the ritual the priest is dispensing the saving grace using the Holy Spirit that the indwells the church. In other words, the ritual performed by the Catholic church saves you because the Catholic church is the body of Christ, contains the Holy Spirit, and as a result has the authority and the ability to dispense saving grace through its sacraments just as Jesus Christ had the ability to tell the paralytic man “thy sins are forgiven” and tell the penitent thief on the cross “this day you shall be with me in paradise.” (Consider in the last case, Ryrie’s position is that the thief in question never had to repent of his sins – which he plainly did when he confessed them and stated that he deserved the punishment of death for them – or call Jesus Christ Lord and submit to Him on that basis, but rather that the thief only had to ask Jesus Christ to save Him.)

However, the decisional conversion-regeneration position states that a person acting on his own power and authority can make a decision that the Holy Spirit (indeed the Holy Trinity) is unconditionally bound to honor, and further that the Godhead must accept that person’s decision even if that person rejects repentance and the Lordship of Jesus Christ. So where the Roman Catholic position is that as the Body of Christ being indwelt by the Holy Spirit it has the sovereign prerogative and ability to confer grace and the regenerative workings of the Holy Spirit on a sinner (Catholic sacramentalism), decisional conversion-regeneration holds that a person outside fellowship with Jesus Christ (and indeed is at emnity with Jesus Christ, spiritually dead, no interest in spiritual things, and all the other things that the Bible says about his condition of original sin and totally depraved state – doctrines which again the original Wesleyans and Arminians somewhat denied but modern dispensationals have mostly adopted) can perform a sacrament that dispenses grace upon himself.

While I do not take the position that Wesleyan dispensationals are in a false and heretical apostate movement and hence cannot be considered Christians – which incidentally is the position that I take with Roman Catholics – allow me to say that at least Roman Catholicism have an explanation for how it is possible for their priests to perform sacraments that dispense grace to sinners: that the priests are acting as representatives of the body of Christ that is indwelt by the Holy Spirit, and therefore have the necessary access to the Holy Spirit and its grace to give to sinners. (Please note: the Roman Catholic Church actually holds in theory that it institutionally has the right to deny salvation to sinners, but it is exceedingly rarely done in practice, especially in modern times. However, in times past there was this pope who excommunicated the king of Britain until the king caved to the pope’s political demands. The pope kept this king waiting outside begging in the snow for days before the pope decided to allow this king back into heaven. Again, do not mistake this for an endorsement of Roman Catholicism in any way.) However, decisional conversion-regeneration holds that a sinner unreconciled with God and thus not part of the Body of Christ (note that I capitalized “Body” with respect to Protestants and not Catholics, and yes it was by design) and hence is not indwelt by the Holy Spirit is able to impart saving grace upon himself – or to be more accurately compel the Holy Spirit that does not indwell him to impart its saving grace – through the “decision for Christ” sacrament. Now I am not going to say that the Catholic position is more Biblical or that it even makes more sense (especially when you consider that Catholic sacramentalism cannot be taken in isolation, but must be considered in the context of their other mystical, pagan doctrines) but at least the Catholics have an explanation for how a priest can save someone by sprinkling him or giving him a communion wafer. The modern Wesleyan evangelical has no explanation for how the decision of an unpenitent sinner who rejects the Lordship of Jesus Christ places the Holy Spirit under unconditional compulsion to save the sinner. The reason for this was stated earlier: deep consideration of the issue of salvation resulting entirely from human initiative, from human intellectual decision, can only result in serious problems for the entire doctrinal system. So, in order to prevent such examination from taking place, their only recourse is to call Paul Washer a heretic for insisting that Biblical repentance is a requirement for salvation, and that salvation results in a person becoming a new creation whose evidence is a changed moral character that reflects and communicates God’s holiness.

When boiled down to its core, the system of Ryrie, Ironside, and Jesus-Is-Savior.com holds that becoming a new creature simply means switching allegiances, changing minds. Then again, as this doctrine rejects Biblical repentance and submission to the Lordship of Jesus Christ, becoming a new creation simply means deciding to allow Jesus Christ to save you. And since it is the sinner who decides to allow Jesus Christ to save him, then it is the sinner who performs the new birth, the new creation through the exercise of his free will, or the changing of his free will. Now of course, the people holding the doctrines similar to Ryrie and the folks at Jesus-Is-Savior.com are not in the business of admitting this fact to people. As a matter of fact, they haven’t even admitted this fact to themselves. (I am serious … they really, truly have not taken this doctrine to its logical conclusion, of thinking about what salvation based on the free will decision of a sinner who rejects repentance and the Lordship of Jesus Christ really means as opposed to what they desperately want it to mean.) So rather than come to grips with the horrible conclusion that their doctrines teach that the sinner accomplishes his own rebirth through the exercise of his intellect, they must accuse those whose preaching challenges their doctrines like Washer and MacArthur of teaching “works plus faith justification” and “legalism.”

The good news: in practice the free will evangelicals do preach that Biblical repentance and the Lordship of Jesus Christ are necessary for salvation. Lots of Reformed/Calvinistic types claim that they do not, but I have listened to far too many evangelical free will Baptist, Pentecostal, and nondenominational sermons. Also, the link which evaluates the statements of Ryrie acknowledges that Ryrie actually ultimately endorses the very positions of MacArthur that he wrote “So Great Salvation” to attack in the first place (and questioned the integrity of Ryrie for failing to admit it). The problem only occurs when people such as Washer and MacArthur repeatedly and directly challenge the “decision for Jesus Christ” doctrine. It is only when that happens that such people as Ryrie and the folks at Jesus-Is-Savior.com are forced to manifest a sort of double-mindedness (I will not use the humanistic psychological term “schizophrenia”) about what they actually believe concerning soteriology.

It is interesting that the “Lordship salvation” opponents use Ananias and Sapphira as well as the Corinthian man living in fornication as examples to demonstrate that the doctrines of Washer, Comfort, and MacArthur – where they demand Biblical repentance and submission to the Lordship of Jesus Christ – are false. First, scripture never states that Ananias, Sapphira, and the Corinthian fornicator did not repent and submit to Christ’s Lordship at the time that they were saved. It merely states that these people fell into sin after salvation. It is an argument from silence, true, but it is still completely consistent with what the apostle John writes about Christians who fall into sin in at least 3 of his epistles (1 John, 2 John, Revelation). Also, the people who reject “Lordship salvation” do not ACCURATELY deal with the issues raised by Simon Magus, Simon the magician! Why? Because Simon Magus made a decision for Jesus Christ without repenting of his sinful desire for power and wealth, and without submitting to the Lordship and sovereignty of God! Simon Magus was using sorcery to control people and make money before he made his decision for Jesus Christ, and not only did he want to continue doing those things after he made his decision for Jesus Christ, but he wanted to force the sovereign Holy Spirit to do his bidding! Correlating Ananias and Sapphira and the Corinthian in the sexual relationship with his father’s wife with the Johannine epistles – interpreting scripture with scripture – confirms what they call “Lordship salvation” rather than denying it. And further, the case of Simon Magus makes it explicitly clear that there is no other salvation but “Lordship salvation!” Otherwise, wow, it would be possible to go to heaven without your knee bowing and your tongue confessing that Jesus Christ is Lord (Philippians 2:9-11), and not only your Lord but Lord of all!

So, we must pray in the Name of Jesus Christ that the people who have adhered to and are disseminating false doctrines on this matter would open their hearts to the truth and begin teaching the truth instead of a lie. Jesus-Is-Savior.com, this means you, and you are by no means alone.

69 Responses to “Jesus-Is-Savior.com Calls Paul Washer, Ray Comfort And John MacArthur False Preacher Heretics!”

  1. Meg said

    I used to like jesus-is-savior.com. I was brainwished by alot of conspiratory theories on his site that is not bibical such as his belive about the government, not the terriost are the cause of 9/11! Also, they are KJV-Only avocates. I am now felling gulity that I lead my Mother to this website and she begins to belive this website. I realize that I did not read the bible and did not desearn this website. When I begain to read the bible, and somewere on the Scriptures, that we shoud not belive in conspiratory theories. I will not go to jesus-is savior.com website ever again.

    • Jonathan said

      I fail to see any worth or value to this website: where is your mission statement or about us section? What is your goal in having this website other than to put so much junk together at once? Why don’t you use the example of websites like thebookofconcord.org or reformed.org?

      May God bring Himself all the glory!

      • Meg said

        I don’t know what you’re talking about. Will you explain in more concrete terms to me because I have a language processing difficulties due to autism. I think you’re talking to Job, (who is a owner of this site), NOT me. Will you try to explain it to me in concrete terms?

        • Mark Rahe said

          THE FAITH OF JESUS CHRIST

          Galatians 2:16 KJV
          16 Knowing that a man is NOT JUSTIFIED by the Works of the Law, but by ” THE FAITH OF JESUS CHRIST even we have Believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be Justified by the ” FAITH OF CHRIST “, and NOT by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified

          THE FAITH OF CHRIST——-> Jesus the Messiah who was foretold to come in times past and even now, HAD FAITH IN HIS OWN BLOOD. He knew why He was in the World and Exactly who He Himself was and is.

          HIS BLOOD WAS FOR THE REMISSION OF SINS. AND HE KNEW THAT!

          He knew He was paying the price for our sins by sheding His own Blood. He did this for the whole World (John 3:16)

          Thus we too MUST HAVE THE ” FAITH OF JESUS ” TO BE SAVED! That His Blood was SUFFICIENT for the payment of our sins! And it is in complete harmony with the GOSPEL OF OUR SALVATION!

          Rejecting the Gospel is unbelief of the Gospel. Until the Gospel is believed personally, you have no forgiveness of anything. Believe the Gospel and be forgiven of everything, Past, Present, and Future SINS based upon God’s Imputed Righteousness.

          > THE GOSPEL 1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have RECEIVED , and wherein ye STAND ;

          2 By which also ye are SAVED , IF ye KEEP IN MEMORY what I preached unto you, unless ye have BELIEVED IN VAIN.

          3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also RECEIVED , how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

          4 And that he was buried , and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: <

          When we place our Faith in the Gospel that Jesus died for our sins, was buried, and rose from the dead for our Justification were are Eternally Saved.

          This is the " FAITH OF JESUS " the FAITH IN HIS BLOOD FOR THE REMISSION OF SIN.

          Have the faith of Jesus !

          I want this message to show you how Easy it is to be Eternally Saved. JUST BELIEVE CHRIST PAID FOR YOUR SINS, ( past, present and future sins ) based upon His Word which is a SURE FOUNDATION and an ANCHOR for the Soul

          After we are Eternally Saved, God deals with us as Sons and disaplines us if need be.

          Please accept Christs Payment for your Eternal Soul Today!

          John 5:24 KJV
          Verily, verily, I say unto you , He that HEARETH my Word, and BELEIVETH on him that sent me, HATH EVERLASTING LIFE (present tense), and SHALL NOT COME (future tense) into condemnation; but IS PASSED (present tense) from Death unto Life.

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    • sealed said

      We don’t have to defend man. God will judge each and all…even those who slander a servant of Christ. We obtain discernment about who’s speaking truth and who’s speaking false by allowing God’s word to indwell us richly…as His infallible word says. You will know them by their fruits and repentance is not something to take lightly. I so appreciate shepherds who still teach what repentance really is and what real faith is…it is not LIP service. The crowd pressed in to Jesus, but ONLY one reached Him with true faith. Be ware of those who make light of God’s grace!

    • Dennis said

      Hi I am Dennis

      Personally for me, John MacArthur is a cult preacher with the heresy of osas, I left the baptists many years ago over that blatent heresy.

      I have listened to Hells best kept secret several times, that is all I know about Ray Comfort.

      The NT is full of answers to osas, but they are ignored and discounted, because of all the scriptures the calvinists site with their blinders on. they just beat the same scriptures over everyones head with no regaurd for the other scriptures that say otherwise.

      you can keep your calvinism a doctrine set forth by one man, I will never go back to that heresy once saved always saved.

      Just look at what some baptist churches are doing on youtube, showing hate not love, and even the KKK is mostly baptist!

      • Dan said

        Calvinism has nothing to do with once saved always saved. Where does this nonsense come from. They have a back-loaded works theology, which is the birth of lordship salvation. Your intellectual and spiritual understanding of the gospel appears suspect by your inability to distinguish the many heresies of Calvinism from OSAS. Question for you, If you were to be born again to our Father in heaven can you be unborn? Can your son or daughter be unborn? do you hate your child because they stray?, would you abandon them if they were lost? If your child would ask for bread would you give them a stone?… If you can love your child enough to give them what they need, how much more does God love us. If someone has “fallen back” into sin (what a misnomer as we are all still committing sins) would we act like Paul to the Corinthians and help them or would we be the hypocritical Pharisee on the hill proclaiming our own false self righteousness? which camp are you in?

      • Mark Rahe said

        ONCE SAVED ALWAYS SAVED / IMPUTED RIGHTEOUSNESS / GOSPEL OF OUR SALVATION.

        2 Corinthians 11:3 KJV 3 But I fear , lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

        I will declare the truth that when we “Believe the Gospel” we are Saved Forever.

        The “Gospel” or Good News” of our “Salvation” is “Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; 4 And that he was buried , and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures.” Now let me back that up with scripture…

        > THE GOSPEL 1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the “Gospel” which I preached unto you, which also ye have “RECEIVED” , and wherein ye “STAND” ; 2 By which also ye are “SAVED” , IF ye KEEP IN MEMORY what I preached unto you, unless ye have BELIEVED IN VAIN. 3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also “RECEIVED” , how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; 4 And that he was buried , and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: <

        When we Receive the "Gospel" and "Believed it" we are "Sealed" with the "Promised Holy Spirit".

        Ephesians 1:13 KJV
        In whom ye also trusted, after that ye "HEARD the Word of Truth", the "GOSPEL OF YOUR SALVATION": in whom also after that ye "BELIEVED" , ye were "SEALED" with that "Holy Spirit of Promise".

        ? How long are we sealed with the Holy Spirit?

        Ephesians 4:30 KJV 30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are "SEALED" unto the "DAY OF REDEMPTION".

        > We are Saved the same way Abraham was also Saved.
        By FAITH / BELIEVING.
        Romans 4:3 KJV 3 For what saith the scripture ? Abraham “Believed” God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

        When we “Believe the Gospel”, we receive “IMPUTED RIGHTEOUSNESS” to our account. Scriptural proof…

        > Speaking of Abraham and all who simply “Believe” in the “Gospel of our Salvation”

        > Romans 4:17-25 KJV 17 (As it is written , I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed , even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were .
        18 Who against hope believed in hope, that he might become the father of many nations, according to that which was spoken , So shall thy seed be .
        19 And being not weak in faith, he considered not his own body now dead , when he was about an hundred years old, neither yet the deadness of Sara’s womb:
        20 He staggered not at the “Promise of God” through “UNBELIEF”; but was strong in “FAITH”, giving glory to God;
        21 And being FULLY PERSUADED that, what He had Promised , He was able also to perform .
        22 And THEREFORE it was “IMPUTED” to him for “RIGHTEOUSNESS”.
        23 Now it was NOT WRITTEN FOR HIS SAKE ALONE, that it was “IMPUTED” to him;
        24 But for US also, to whom it shall be “IMPUTED” , IF WE BELIEVE ON HIM that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;
        25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

        Conclusion; The moment we Hear and Believe and Receive Personally the “Gospel of our Salvation” we are “Sealed with the Holy Spirit” and “IMPUTED” the Righteousness of God unto the DAY OF REDEMPTION.

        That means ” ONCE SAVED ALWAYS SAVED” Therefore after we Receive our Salvation, Imputed unto us for Believing the Gospel, recognizing our sinner-ship before God and placing our Faith in Christs, Death for our Sins, and that he was buried and Rose again three days later for our JUSTIFICATION we are “IMPUTED” with “His Righteousness” thus we DO have a licence to sin but NOT PERMISSION to sin. That is why Paul says in Romans 6:1-2 KJV 1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound ? 2 God forbid . How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein ?

  2. truther said

    The jesus-is-savior site is Biblical on most matters(from what Ive read). The problem is the modern versions of the Bible DO NOT say the same things as the KJV(1611). In fact, the modern versions support new age, and water down the deity of Christ, etc…Ive had lost sinners try and prove from a modern version that hell does not exist! I would suggest for next time, to quote Scripture in your defense. Lordship salvation is rooted in the NIV, and can lead people to hell for believing a works gospel in disguise. I wrote a thread proving the NIV is a counterfeit Bible:

    http://christianchat.com/showthread.php?t=6153

    • Job said

      Truther:

      Claiming that Lordship salvation is rooted in the NIV is absurd. First of all, Paul Washer and John MacArthur do not even rely on the NIV. Second, Lordship salvation was the original doctrine of the Protestant Reformers, the original Baptists and the early church. Would that all Christians PLEASE invest the time and money to investigate a good history of doctrines book by an evangelical writer! Lordship salvation was rejected first by the Roman Catholics, then by the hyper-Arminians (although NOT by John Wesley!), then by the hyperdispensationalists, then by “confession is enough” seeker sensitive church growth New Agey evangelicals. I really do wish dispensationals would stop pretending as if the history of Christianity began with Darby and Scofield!

      • Daniel said

        Invest your time reading the word of God from the Bible, like 1st John, and invest your money in 2 or 3 good translations. Then walk like Jesus did. If you are indeed saved then you will walk by faith and will not be in habitual sin. Not that you won’t ever sin but that you will no longer live the like the world and will live like your going to heaven.

        Where your heart, is there will be your treasure will be also. Or if you love the world then your treasure is here on earth, if you love the Lord your God your treasure will be in heaven. And he is your Lord, King, and God whether you like it or not

        • Dan said

          You couldn’t and can’t walk like Jesus did and if it wasn’t for his grace purely, you are going to hell. No works you do will even scratch the surface of what is needed to be righteous and holy you pious hypocrite. Any sin, habitual or otherwise is an abomination to God, You are no in the business of judging sin your perversion of the Gospel has you thinking your sin is better than another’s sin. Because you practice under the law your sin is held against you while those who throw themselves on the finished work of Christ have their faith counted as righteousness. Will you stand before God and hold up your works as justification to enter heaven. Your works will embarrass you in front of the Holy One. You better Metanoia (Repent, change your Mind) and throw yourself on the mercy of Christ before it is to late you Pharisee.

  3. Dave Emme said

    First, as a IFB believer who is a 4 point Calvnist and a Lordship Salvation proponent Macarthur, Washer fan-I wander why people do not see that the first to rebel against God was about lifting himself above God-Lucifer, and Lucifer used the same tactic with Eve in lifting up her deity above God’s-not that Eve or Adam was a god, but this is what was promised. This pronounced a judgement on all of mankind as sinners reprobate and no matter what good or evil we do-it is all a part of the sin nature-the flesh in accessing the knowledge of good and evil.

    • Job said

      Dave Emme:

      What is “IFB”? Also, with which point of Calvinism do you disagree? Limited atonement?

      • Dave Emme said

        Job,

        I apologize. Either I totally missed the email that let me know there was a response and saw this latest rant-not sure who is claiming what so I would stay out of it.

        IFB=Independent Fundamental Baptist which that site appeals to the most.

        I just do not see Limited Atonement as biblical as I view it, it is based on reasoning trying to reconcile some passages that teaches God desires all to be save and s9 all are the elect.

        I have asked Calvinist friends of mine to point me to someresources and between what I was given and what I already have access to, I have read quite a bit and am still not convinced of Limited Atonement. I think most who believe in some form of Calvinism, but not every point usually have the same problem and most Calvinists I have met and talked to usually do not have too many problems with us 4 ptr’s.

        Of course on that web site, I read him comment that Spurgeon really did not believe in Calvinism or understand it becuase of his actions as a preacher pressing on many to place their faith in Christ. Of course, I recently read(I think about 6 weeks ago-enough time that I forget the title of the sermon) where Spurgeon preached Limited Atonement.

        I should mention there is a website called, “Jesus is Lord” almost in the same form as the URL for the Jesus is savior website and has many of the same beliefs-even same look. Initially, I thought maybe they were put out by the same person until I read where the Jesus is Lord website hits big on repentance as needed for salvation where from what I see-the Jesus is saviour is against this teaching.

        I long suspect the Saviour site is like the Lord site to siphen people from the Lord site.

        I should mention that many Independent Fundamental Baptists really enjoy Paul Washer and his preaching as at times, I try to show he is preaching(in my humble opinion) Lordship Salvation which has gotten such a bad rap because of mischaracterizations of what it actually teaches.

        In fact, I recently read an artickle I think by Roy Zuck where he defines steps to salvation and really, I could not disagree with him and as I see is it is no different then what many Lordship advocates believe about salvation.

        Next time you respond, hopefully I will see it come across my email this time.

        God bless
        Dave Emme

        • Mark Rahe said

          ONCE SAVED ALWAYS SAVED / IMPUTED RIGHTEOUSNESS / GOSPEL OF OUR SALVATION.

          2 Corinthians 11:3 KJV 3 But I fear , lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

          I will declare the truth that when we “Believe the Gospel” we are Saved Forever.

          The “Gospel” or Good News” of our “Salvation” is “Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; 4 And that he was buried , and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures.” Now let me back that up with scripture…

          > THE GOSPEL 1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the “Gospel” which I preached unto you, which also ye have “RECEIVED” , and wherein ye “STAND” ; 2 By which also ye are “SAVED” , IF ye KEEP IN MEMORY what I preached unto you, unless ye have BELIEVED IN VAIN. 3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also “RECEIVED” , how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; 4 And that he was buried , and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: <

          When we Receive the "Gospel" and "Believed it" we are "Sealed" with the "Promised Holy Spirit".

          Ephesians 1:13 KJV
          In whom ye also trusted, after that ye "HEARD the Word of Truth", the "GOSPEL OF YOUR SALVATION": in whom also after that ye "BELIEVED" , ye were "SEALED" with that "Holy Spirit of Promise".

          ? How long are we sealed with the Holy Spirit?

          Ephesians 4:30 KJV 30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are "SEALED" unto the "DAY OF REDEMPTION". We are Saved the same way Abraham was also Saved. Speaking of Abraham and all who simply “Believe” in the “Gospel of our Salvation”

          > Romans 4:17-25 KJV 17 (As it is written , I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed , even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were .
          18 Who against hope believed in hope, that he might become the father of many nations, according to that which was spoken , So shall thy seed be .
          19 And being not weak in faith, he considered not his own body now dead , when he was about an hundred years old, neither yet the deadness of Sara’s womb:
          20 He staggered not at the “Promise of God” through “UNBELIEF”; but was strong in “FAITH”, giving glory to God;
          21 And being FULLY PERSUADED that, what He had Promised , He was able also to perform .
          22 And THEREFORE it was “IMPUTED” to him for “RIGHTEOUSNESS”.
          23 Now it was NOT WRITTEN FOR HIS SAKE ALONE, that it was “IMPUTED” to him;
          24 But for US also, to whom it shall be “IMPUTED” , IF WE BELIEVE ON HIM that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;
          25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification. <

          Conclusion; The moment we Hear and Believe and Receive Personally the "Gospel of our Salvation" we are "Sealed with the Holy Spirit" and "IMPUTED" the Righteousness of God unto the DAY OF REDEMPTION.

          That means " ONCE SAVED ALWAYS SAVED" Therefore after we Receive our Salvation, Imputed unto us for Believing the Gospel, recognizing our sinner-ship before God and placing our Faith in Christs, Death for our Sins, and that he was buried and Rose again three days later for our JUSTIFICATION we are "IMPUTED" with "His Righteousness" thus we DO have a licence to sin but NOT PERMISSION to sin. That is why Paul says in Romans 6:1-2 KJV 1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound ? 2 God forbid . How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein ?

  4. Dr. Carl S. Hale said

    You’re all missing the point–the Truth of Jesus Christ is simple faith. Why all the analysis and theology, brothers? The theologial underpinnings, arguments, terminologies, dichotomies, etc. discussed in this article are almost entirely false, human-made creations. The crux is the Cross of Jesus Christ. I read the Bible to learn about God, not human authors. And we need to compare different versions of the Bible because, yes, like it or not, the Bible is being corrupted and the Word of God is being seriously compromised. At what point does this corruption lead to false doctrine and false teaching and false belief? Look at the Message Bible, which reads like a Shirley McClaine book–indeed we are already there. Read the Bible. That is GOD’S WORD. I don’t need John MacArthur or Paul Washer or Ray Comfort or a priest or a scribe or a pastor to interpret the Bible for me–God’s Spirit lives in believers. 1 John confirms that we don’t need anyone else to interpret scripture–God’s Spirit will lead us and teach us and remind us of all things that Jesus taught.

    And since when do we engage in endless, mindless, harmful talk about who is saved and who is not? Who gave us authority of judge? Every time we do, we bring judgment on ourselves. Jesus is judge. He will decide. I trust Him to judge with mercy and justice. We are not judges. We have no authority to judge. Yes, you may say that you are discerning spirits, that you are exposing false gospel, that you are trying to help keep people out of hell, that you are trying to show people the Truth–only Jesus Christ and the Holy Spriit can do these things. If you relaly want to help people grow in Christ Jesus, then tell them to read their BIBLE! Jesus will decide who is in heaven and who is in hell when HE judges every human heart–by the way, God is greater than our hearts. What happened to simple, childlike belief? I’ve seen young children, the mentally retarded, the brain damaged, the mentally ill, get saved! Don’t say in your heart–“yea, but were they really saved?” Simple faith is what brother David is trying to get across on Jesus is Savior.com. I don’t agree with everything he says–some of it is falliable human understanding–the same may be said for every one of us, however. He has an awesome heart for Jesus Christ and the Word of God–my spirit testifies and the Holy Spirit testifies with me! He has one thing right, the most important TRUTH OF ALL: Jesus Christ and His Cross of Calvary is the sole basis of our salvation as saved, reborn believers. We must be like little children to see the Kingdom of God. Not naive like a little child–not the “child” of 1 Corinthians, but the trusting and innocent child-like nature that says “I believe” and puts all hope and trust in Jesus Christ our Lord! Let’s focus on Jesus Christ, on the Cross of Calvary: He died, was buried, and rose from the dead!!! Good news indeed!!! Not Paul Washer, or MacArthur, or Cahill, or Wesley, or Comfort, or Calvin, or the pope, or Joseph Smith, or blah blah blah…ad nauseum. I’m personally sick and tired and weary of men and their wicked ways…the human heart is wicked above all things. I want Jesus Christ. He is the Truth and Light of this world. God is the Truth. Men pervert His Truth with their books and endless, empty theological debates. Satan sits back and laughs, becuase we are all sitting around arguing about Truth (when we know the Truth) and people are literally going to HELL!! All men are liars, but God is Truthful and blameless in all things? Keep your eyes on Him alone! Jesus Christ is Savior and King and Lord and God!!! <

    • Job said

      1. The King James Version is the only Bible that I use for a host of reasons that I will not get into.

      2. You accuse me of judging and say that I will be judged also, then you turn around and be the judge? If we have no authority to judge, by what authority do you judge me? Keep in mind: I never said that the Jesus-Is-Savior people and their fellow travelers are heretics. It is the Jesus-Is-Savior people that is calling everyone else heretics.

      3. What on earth makes you think that I do not advocate people reading their Bible? Are you telling me that I should tell people to read their Bible only? Meaning that is ALL that they should read? Well sir, do you practice what you preach? I mean, how else did you get your Ph.D.?

      4. Why on earth would you equate Washer, MacArthur, Comfort, and Calvin with the pope and Joseph Smith? Simple: because you are judging them. You have determined that they are all heretics cut from the same cloth. And again, you accuse me of judging? Take the beam out of your own eye before you take the mote out of mine.

      5. You call it theological debates. I call it rightly dividing the Word of Truth.

      6. I am actually not even a big theology guy. Most theology is based on western philosophy which is founded in paganism. Had you actually taken the time to investigate this site before coming on here and falsely judging me, you would know about my aversion to theology. Instead, this is EXPOSITION. Everything that I am saying COMES DIRECTLY FROM SCRIPTURE. Your issue is that the things that you believe in that come from the Bible, you assert that it is scripture. But the things that you DON’T believe in that comes from the Bible, you call it theology.

      7. A great fundamentalist website that I read recently states that modern fundamentalists pretend that they are not indebted to theological systems and creeds when they really are. It is a delusion to think that you just cracked open the Bible one day and figured it all out yourself. Instead, you benefited from the faith that you received from a preacher, who himself received the faith from a preacher, who himself received the faith from a preacher, and the line goes all the way back to the faith received by the apostles from Jesus Christ. You didn’t develop the Trinity doctrine. Someone else did it for you, and then you went and checked the scripture and verified it. The same with your doctrines on baptism, salvation, the endtimes, sanctification, etc. Are you going to stand there and tell me that without any prior knowledge of Christianity, you just opened your Bible, read Genesis 1 and then (sometime later I would suppose or maybe not) read John 1 and figured out the pre-existence of Jesus Christ and His role in creation all by yourself? Either you read a theology book or a church history book at some point in time, or the preacher that has been your most influential doctrinal teacher did, or the preacher that was HIS most influential doctrinal teacher did.

      My goodness, don’t you know that one of my most powerful weapon against false doctrines is opening up a history book and seeing that these doctrines were either A) not existent in the early church in any form or B) if they did exist were quickly dismissed as heresies? With all due respect, sir, if you had been the places I have been, seen the things that I have seen, heard the things that I have heard, and done the things that I have done, you would come to the conclusion that people need to read church history and THE RIGHT theology books MORE and not LESS. You say tell the people to read the Bible … don’t you know that so many false preachers do exactly that? There is this particular false preacher – I won’t mention her name – who advocates staying up all night reading as much of the Bible as you can as fast as you can in one sitting. People take her advice, do it, and they feel all spiritual as a result. Never mind the fact that by taking her advice, they will NEVER understand what they are reading, and that is PRECISELY her goal. If they were to UNDERSTAND what they are reading, they will stop following her. But if she can keep teaching them tricks so that they will feel spiritual, they will keep following her no matter what. That is just like the preachers who tell people that there are all these codes, tricks, formulas, revelations etc. in the Bible and if they find them, they will discover how to be happy, successful, powerful, and to grow their ministries. So you have all these people going around looking for numerology codes thinking that if they give $700 on every 7th Sunday or if they participate in some Jewish ritual on some Jewish holiday or something like that then God will bless them.

      So yes, I want people to read the Bible. I also want people to get the meaning that God intended when they do, a meaning that will be confirmed by the witnesses of other believers throughout the history of church. Meanwhile, when you want people to read the Bible, you want them to get the same meaning as you do, and if they don’t you call them heretics. Or theologians. Or something.

      Thank you.

    • Dave Emme said

      Me, I do not think anyone denies simple faith. Oh yes, I am also brain damaged with TBI from the war in Iraq, though I do not think my disability goes to a level of what you are speaking of.

      Here are some thoughhts and observations:

      1. That site does an awful lot of judging on its own. So to criticize someone for criticizing someone is not to consistant to me.

      2. If we are to judge, we should judge consistantly. If calvinism is wrong, then rip that fundamentalist name from our belief system and understanding since Calvinists wrote most of the articles in the 4 volume, “Fundamentals of the Faith” as collated and published by RA Torrey. Similarly, he makes all kinds of excuses as to why Spurgeon is not really a Calvinist though his sermons and work says otherwise. He has preached sermons on election and Limited Atonement. Yes, he fought some hyper Calvinists. Yes he was very evangelical in his preaching. This should show one thing, except for some extreme Hyper Calvinists-in fact Calvinists believe in evandelism as much as arminians.

      3. Does it seem right if a person professed a simple faith in Christ 30 yrs ago, but has never read the bible, never attended church, and never tried overcoming one sin-a person who professes salvation and over 30 yrs has not one work of sanctification(the simple understanding of Ephesians 2:10 and Christ teaching a simple and easy to understand teaching- if you love me, you will keep my commandments).

      Here is what Lordship Salvation teaches, whether you know it or not, if you are saved by Christ-you were not saved from sin to a nuetral state where now you can choose to serve Christ or not serve Christ and be considered his child. It as simple as this, once saved-he is not just your Saviour, he is also your God, your Father, your Brother, your Master, and your Lord. I will echo the sentiments of Paul in 1st Cor 1, is Christ divided? The simple understanding according to Ephesians 2:10(often neglected after verse 8-9)is that we are the creation of God designed for a certain purpose-to do good works. Jesus told us the most important commandment is to love the Lord your God with all your heart, all your soul, and all your might. Very easy to understand, right? Yet, many who teach against Lordship Salvation somehow thinks this is optional. When approaching passages taught by Lordship advocates somehow get it in their heads what the bible says means something else then what it says. For instance, this passage is often stated to be about discipleship and not salvation:

      24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. 25 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it. 26 For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul? 27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works. 28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

      The Holy Bible : King James Version., electronic ed. of the 1769 edition of the 1611 Authorized Version. (Bellingham WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 1995). Mt 16:24-28.

      Very easy to comprehend and understand, correct? Yet I have seen many against Lordship Salvation Teach this is about discipleship which in a sense-I do not disagree-entrance into salvation is entrance into discipleship or why would there be teachers and pastors for the body of Christ, why is there churches, why is there a bible, and why does 1st Corinthians one teach us that the natural man cannot understand spiritual things, but we have the indwelling Spirit of Christ to teach us comparing spiritual things with spiritual things? does this possibly mean that when Jesus preached in Matthew 7 that there is a narrow gate and a narrow way, when Christ teaches he is the way, the truth, and the life(according to 1 John 1 Christ is Eternal Life) so as many teach that we do not neccisarily take Christ as Lord and us as disciples-that the narrow path leads to a narrow way where God expects us to actually be righteous and holy.

      Especially among Independent fundamental Baptists who in one breath says Lordship Salvation is heresy, but also correctly teaches that we are to be sanctified, forsake sin, and live a holy life that this is a contradiction in terms? In other words, the main thrust of Lordship Salvation is not to surrender every sin to Christ which is impossible-which I think anytime we overcome sin-we are doing this by sin which in essence is living a sinful life regaurdless of how sanctified we become-because the bible in Genesis 3 defines the sin nature as knowledge of good and evil and right after Adam and Eve has their eyes opened by the fruit of this tree-they on their own start determining what is righteousness apart from the righteousness of God and lifting their righteousness above God who never taught them it was wrong to be naked-yet Adam and Eve decided on their own it was evil to be naked which is opposite of how God intended them to live.

      Yet, when I read in Isaiah 55 that our thoughts are not his thoughts and his ways not his ways and commands to repent and forsake his thoughts-when I see many teach repentance is not needed for salvation and is the same as belief-I wander if they ever read Mark 1:15 when Jesus clearly states that we are to repent and believe the gospel(two seperate actions) or are we to understand that we need not forsake that which we relied upon in the past whether our own righteousness, Islam, Budhuism, Judaism, and or Roman Catholicism and it is perfectly acceptable to believe and practice these other religions along with Christianity and perhaps we might have problems with this?

      This is what I think of when people teach repentance means only faith and anything else is seen as works-so it is okay to remain in a Catholic Church, keep following the sacraments of grace such as confession to a father and praying to mary and also believe in Jesus?

      See, many who teach against Lordship Salvation also teach against repentance though the actual definition of repentance has nothing to do with faith-look it up in whatever Greek resource you have and you will see it has nothing to do with faith and what happens is man enters his own thoughts that to change your mind is to turn in faith.

      Yet, we so easily miss the understanding that we are turning from that we relied upon before from salvation. You cannot have a turning to something if it is not a turning from something.

      These are not hard and complicated understandings of the scriptures, yet when that passage above is taught as meant for discipleship, though Christ just finished rebuking Peter calling him Satan for Peter telling Christ he should not have to suffer on the cross, and immidiarely after those verses, Christ starts pontificating on if a man gains the whole world, he loses his own soul.

      See, many understand that is abut salvation, yet Christ just does not pop off the mouth about two unrelated subjects for no reason at all. when seen in context, certainly denying your self(repentance), picking up your cross and folowing Christ is also a part of salvation. Yes, I know-salvation by works. Please read Ephesians 2:8-10-do not stop at verse 9. Read John 3:16 and understand the Greek construction of belief is present tense-a tense that starts and never stops.

      So when I simply read the bible-it is very easy to understand we cannot over come sin or no need for salvation-that the reason why we need to deny ourselves and pick up our cross(a killing instrument designed to kill rebels) so we can lose our life so that eternal life which is Christ can start living our lives and overcome our sins for us.

      I realize I said a lot, but part of this is borne from a 13 yr journey whehn I began percieving that often we say we are saved by grace and act like we are saved by works. I have been studying, praying, and studying to understand how the grace of God works in our lives for sanctification. It is now very easy for me to see, but was not 13 years ago.

      This is where I begin to see salvation as not just something that saves us from hell, but restores that Kingly relationship of fellowship by the creature in worship to the creator-not some blank state of deciding to follow Christ in discipleship or whatever we decide to do and still think we are saved. Free will is the sin nature. Read Psalms 14 and 53 to see this. after salvation-we have no free will if we ever thought we had it before salvation.

    • barbbflyjc said

      i like Dr. Hale said cuz i try to say the same thing to all camps of christians . for some people these teachers are idols -i have a calvinist friend who puts these teachers john calvin s. rutherford for eg to be equal with the bible apostles!!! in this 1300 person evangelical church joyce meyers rules – they give out her interpretation of the Holy Spirit instead of scriptures. i am not recieved well but i have been there and now just love the scriptures !!! our sinful including my sinful flesh wants to hear these preachers instead of reading the word but my heart and spirit know that thats where communion with the LORD JESUS IS in the Word of God. . the esv. and the old niv are good but i also look at the jewish tannakh and the amplified also . there is a hebrew / greek key study bible and other study tools. we need to grow up and find truths for ourselves and believe God will help us. God bless you

  5. John Kaniecki said

    Dr. Carl S Hale,

    Hi hope you are well.

    I agree that the Bible should go well before man. But as the Eunuch said when asked if he understood. “How can I unless some one guides me?”

    Why do we have so many conflicting sect in Christaindom? Too much man, too little Bible.

    Love,

    John

    • Job said

      John:

      Excellent example with the eunuch. I have a question to ask you about the four horsemen of the apocalypse. Who is the rider on the white horse with the bow and crown who conquers? Thanks!

      • Martin said

        Hi Job,

        In answering this question, I recommend for your reading, “Revelation of the Seven Seals” and “An Exposition of the Seven Church Ages” books from the Voice of God Recordings website: http://branham.org/contactus. Or please drop me a mail at okutmart@gmail.com so that I could send you soft copies of these books. Please do not presume on anything until you have had a personal experience with that thing. I bet you, a lot of questions that may be on your mind will be answered after reading these books.

        Anyway, I am new here (on this site) so I may not know how things work here. Please forgive me if I’m intruding since your question was not even directed to me but I know for sure that these books will answer your question and a lot more that may have not even crossed your mind yet.

        I am not the type of person who will just jump into people’s conversations but I also know that I owe you a duty in love of helping you when you are stuck somewhere on this journey to perfect life In the Lord Jesus Christ we have both taken. And If can offer that help I better give it now or be condemned for it later. I will answer for it at the judgement bar of God – yes, it will definitely be waiting for me there and I will surely meet it.

        Thank you very much for understanding.

        Martin.

  6. John Kaniecki said

    Job,

    Hi hope you are well.

    I will look into your question. But my preliminary thoughts is that since the horsemen come from heaven they are from God. The beasts come fromt the sea and other places and not heaven.

    I have found something interesting. The war with Gog and Magog comes after the first ressurection and after the battle of Armegedon! See Revelation 20:7. This is after the thousand year reign. So all this talk about Russia coming to do battle is just that talk.

    Also I am convinced of two other things. There is no rapture and Isreal is not Isreal.

    Love,

    John

    • Job said

      Wow, you are right! I just re-read Revelation 6. The seals are opened in heaven. The horsemen do not come from the bottomless pit like the locusts, nor do they come from the waters like the beast of Revelation 13 or out of the bottomless pit like the beast of Revelation 11. So since the rider of the white horse does not come from earth or the bottomless pit, that poses real harm to the notion that the rider of the white horse is the anti-Christ, which I have heard several dispensational teachers tell me.

      Still, the rider of the white horse seems different from the other three, don’t you think?

      And reading a text from Exodus a week ago plus expositing Psalm 72, Israel is Jesus Christ. Replacement theology is true, but Israel was replaced by Jesus Christ, not the church. So both dispensationalism and covenant theology are false in that regards.

      As far as the rapture goes, I no longer believe in it either, but I refuse to be dogmatic about it until I resolve a couple of more issues. But since I have so many other things on my plate right now (more basic things like personal evangelism and also making sure my family has food and shelter!) that it may take years before I can resolve them. I just know that we won’t be sacrificing animals in the third temple for 1000 years. That is plain from the book of Hebrews.

  7. John Kaniecki said

    Job,

    Hi hope you are well.

    I think that is the best way to approach prophecy one step at a time. Many, many, many people make assumptions and then build on those assumptions and make a house of cards. There are thousands of theories out there all claiming to ‘know’ how the end times will come out. All conflicting.

    I think proper understanding will come from a give and take from Christians, such as us, who approach the whole situation with Love and humility.

    I am getting deeper into prophecy and doing my best to understand it. I recall scripture such as when God sent the destroying angel to Egypt and destroyed all who did not have the blood on the door.This was the first Passover. There are a couple of other instances and I will need to go back to the Bible to get the proper references. So the notion that God will send a destroying force not against his people stands the test of comparing scripture to scripture.

    I agree one hundred percent that we will not be sacrificing animals in some third temple for a thousand years. Though we will celebrate the Feast of Tabernacles. But I have to look into that more.

    I will get back to you, hopefully soon, with further thoughts on this. The best way again to proceed is to speak on what we are sure of and build from there.

    Love,

    John

    We had a very good day today and had a baptism at our congregation.

    • Job said

      John:

      I can see us celebrating the feast of Tabernacles, because even during the millennium, this world will not be our home. Heaven, New Jerusalem, the true Zion, will be our home and as such we will still be pilgrims. That reminds me of the last part of book 2 of Pilgrim’s Progress where the women, children (and less-able men) had a long period of rest away from the perils of the journey, but it was still not the Celestial City.

      Incidentally, about Gog and Magog being after the millennium as opposed to being during the great tribulation … that is true. However, Armageddon is before the return of Jesus Christ. I think the only way to get a grip onto prophecy is to start at the very beginning and read sequentially making a note of all the passages that you believe to be prophetic. At the end, you review what you have written, put the pieces together, and then you start all over again, trying to correct the mistakes that you made the first time through. Next: repeat the process again. And again. And again. Etc. Finally after several iterations, you may finally have something.

      Incidentally, that is precisely what used to be done in times past. But I suppose Protestants of this era are too distracted with the business of life to delve into things that deeply, so we rely on the labors of those who came before us more often than not.

  8. John Kaniecki said

    Job,

    Hi hope you are well.

    Please pray for my mother. She had a fall today!

    Do you think the book of Revelation is in chronological order? My prelimanrary thoughts is that it is. If you think not, what then is the order?

    I looked at Ezekiel 37. This matches perfectly with Revelation 20:6. Then Ezekiel 38 and 39 matches Revelation 20:7-10.

    Now back in Revelation 16:13 you have the dragon, beast and false prophet. They gather the nations for war at Armageddon, Revelation 16:16.

    Back now to Revelation 19:20 the false prophet and the beast are punished. Revelation 20, the dragon is chained for a thousand years. Then come the subsequent events of Gog and Magog already mention.

    The conclusion of the matter? Gog and Magog come after Armegedon. In fact a thousand years later. (Though the thousand years could be symbollic but I do not believe so.)

    Let us look into these matters before we go on.

    Love,

    John

  9. Dave 2 said

    Gentlemen: God Bless You.

    Like you, I simply wish to accept the truth, and not personalize the ramifications. And like you, I am willing to consider all points, and remain ready to change as scripture demands. Hopefully, this comment will not add any confusion to this important prophecy, though I suspect that bringing more to the table can do that.
    I used to think that the war with Gog & Magog described in Ezekiel 38 & 39 was the same event described in Revelations 20, and therefore believed that this war would take place after the millennium. But, there are a couple of things that may indicate that this may not be so.
    First, it is written that after the attack by Gog upon the mountains of Israel, verses 9-10 indicate that they will burn the weaponry with fire for seven years. This is done so that they would not cut down any wood in the field or in the forest.
    Second, in verse 12, they will be burying the dead for 7 months. I think that if one reviews Revelations 20, it is prophesied in verse 10 that the devil is cast into the lake of fire, where the beast and false prophet are. This fact should indicate that this war takes place at the end of the Millennium.
    However, verse 11 states that the earth and heaven fled away, and there was found no place for them. Therefore, since at this time the books are opened, and heaven and earth are not found, there does not appear to be any reason to be burning any weapons for 7 years. And, since the books are opened, and the dead, both small and great stand before God, the marking of graves would be unnecessary, particularly since there is no earth to mark.
    Verse 14 says that death and hell were cast into the lake of fire, and this called the second death Then in chapter 21 of Revelations, we discover that God provides a new heaven and a new earth.
    Further, it may help to know that Gog is described in Ezekiel 38 as a ‘chief prince’. This title is important to consider, because Daniel chapter 10 states that Michael the ‘chief prince’ came to help the angel deliver the message of God to Daniel.
    Therefore, since both Michael and Gog are described as Chief Princes, Gog is not a person, king or ruler, but a spirit. It is possible that the armies of Gog are destroyed at that time, but not the chief prince, since the chapters do not specifically state that Gog is destroyed. As a result, this very same chief prince could go out to deceive the nations and gather them for battle against the camp of the saints at a later time.
    I suspect that these are two separate battles, even though the same evil spirit leads each war. In Ezekiel 38, Gog comes from the north. But he does not come with Magog as described in Revelations 20. Both Gog and Magog gather the nations in Revelations 20, but Gog is said in Ezekiel 38 as coming from the land of Magog, not with Magog, and that he is the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal. Not every nation on earth is prophesied to come against Israel in Ezekiel.
    Hence, since he idea of burning for 7 years, and marking graves for 7 months would be somewhat illogical given the circumstances of Revelations 20, and Gog and Magog are given different roles, the possibility to consider two battles may have merit.
    While I am ardently opposed to the dispensation doctrine, I am careful to consider all arguments and pray for understanding. The art of the devil’s lies is painted by a reasonable presentation of truth, where 90 percent truth can cover the 10 percent lie. Therefore, I do not dismiss evidence out of hand, just because a conclusion is in error, or the doctrine cannot stand the test of scripture.
    What is particularly sad to me, is that this prophecy carries tremendous weight where understanding is critical in the days ahead. If one believes that this war described in Ezekiel 38 & 39 is the Battle of Armageddon, when it is possible that this war takes place prior to tribulation, then the claims of a coming Anti-Christ could deceive many.
    Or, if this war is believed to be a conclusion of the millennial reign, but is actually a battle to set the anti-Christ upon his throne, then souls could also be deceived. The new heaven and earth could then be taught as an allegory, similar to the teachings of the Jehovah Witnesses.
    But, of significant thought, is that the prophecy of Ezekiel should not be considered in a chronological order, because if Ezekiel 37 is followed by Ezekiel 38 & 39, then we must also consider that chapters 40-48 would also follow. This practice would again present some peculiar circumstances in that a new temple is built, and sacrifices are offered.
    However, Revelations 21: 22 states that: “And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it!” And verse 24-27 clearly illustrates that only those written in the Book of Life shall enter the city, where there is no abomination. Therefore, there cannot be any nations to be gathered by Gog and Magog to attack the city, for they are long gone, cast into the lake of fire.
    Therefore, because Ezekiel 44:7-9 makes mention of strangers that came into the temple to pollute it, a temple that should exist by that time, nor could it be polluted in the presence of the Almighty God, and the Lamb, this could not be the new Heaven and Great City of God.
    As a result, if one considers that the prophet Daniel was given a vision, which was followed by an interpretation of that vision. And John also saw things in heaven that required an explanation after, it is possible that the prophet Ezekiel’s prophecies are fashioned in the same manner. Therefore, it could indicate that the temple is built after the war of Gog, then, if this is the case, then the strangers and their pollution of this temple would take place as a matter of the anti-Christ’s abomination, and this practice of observing sacrifices would precede the very thing that he will cause to cease.
    But this would change the prophecy of the House of Israel being restored in chapter 37, since modern Israel is not true Israel, and true Israel will not exist as people until the beginning of the reign of Jesus Christ, when He returns with the saints of God at a literal millennial reign here on earth.
    Again, my comment is for your consideration, and is not intended to add to any difficulty one may have understanding the prophecies of the Bible. But, because some believe in a pre-trib rapture, and some believe in a prehistory explanation of verse, I offer this as a testimony for those whom will be here during the tribulation, and not recognize that the signs and lying wonders of the beast are intended to cause one to think that the reign of God has began. May You have Peace in Christ Jesus.

  10. john kaniecki said

    Dave2,

    Hi hope you are well.

    Your explanation at least on the surface is possible.

    However I believe in Ezekiel it mentions an attack on unwalled villages. This leads me to believe in a later attack.

    I am encouraged by your words and I look forward to discussing these matters with those with humble and Loving Spirits.

    Love,

    John

  11. Dave 2 said

    John,

    I pray you are well also, and that God be with you always.

    In Ezekiel 38: 8, the text in the King James says: “After many days thou shalt be visited: in the latter years thou shalt come into the land that is brought back from the sword, and is gathered out of many people, against the mountains of Israel, which have been always waste: but it is brought forth out of the nations, and they shall dwell safely all of them!”
    This chapter begins by God saying that He will put hooks into thy (Gog’s) jaws and bring him forth. When one puts hooks into the jaws of an animal, it is done so that the animal obeys the commands of it’s owner. Gog has no choice. God will bring the armies of Gog against those dwelling in Israel, in the latter days.
    But, please consider that in verse 10 God says: “Thus saith the Lord God; It shall ALSO come to pass, that at the SAME time shall things come into thy mind, and thou shalt think an evil thought!”
    That evil thought is to take a spoil and a prey from those people living in a land of unwalled villages; that are at rest, dwelling without walls, safely, having neither bars nor gates. This text is not another, or second attack against Israel, since verse 10 says that when the armies of Gog attack Israel as described in verse 8, they will also, and at the same time, attack another nation.
    I believe that the verses in 11 & 12 of Ezekiel 38 accurately describe the United States of America. And since this is not a very welcome vision, I would consider this in prayer, and hope that our personal views will not prevent the Holy Spirit from teaching us the truth.
    I consider the prospects of this prophecy to be an alarming call to the children of God, of whom the responsibility of witnessing for Jesus Christ should become a primary activity in our daily lives, especially here in America, if the prophecy includes this nation.
    I would be categorically insane to desire that my ‘version’ of this prophecy would come to pass. I have children and grandchildren living in America who have not sought out their Lord Jesus Christ, nor have they repented. They have not given their hearts to the LORD, nor do they live, follow or accept the will of God in their lives. Their very souls are in peril, each and every day, and I cannot prevent their deaths, however they occur.
    As a result, I would welcome text that would change my understanding of this prophecy, so that my loved ones will have more time to consider salvation. I pray that no child suffers from the horrors of a battle of this nature, but in my view, it would be criminal to dismiss this text as written. Should I ignore this warning, and go about my daily life as if all is okay, that tomorrow will be as today, only much more abundant, my love for my family, friends, neighbors and enemies should be questioned.
    Truthfully, I’d prefer the end of millennium explanation, but I am concerned that a sleeping America will wake up too late, and fall for any refuge the devil offers, and say it is of God.

  12. John Kaniecki said

    Search,

    Hi hope you are well.

    Understanding God and His will is important. More than getting into a relationship with God we must also live a life pleasing to God. A holy and acceptable life. Furthermore we must be faithful unto death.

    To sound the warning is a commandment. In understanding the prophets the primary lessons are the Nature of God and the Nature of nations. For example how Israel thought they would not suffer at the hand of the Babylonians because they were God’s people. They even had lying prophets to tell them lies to that end. This is a lesson for Christians today. A covenant relationship with Jesus does not ensure us that God will not punish us.

    Gotta run.

    Love,

    John

  13. Dave 2 said

    Mr. Henry L. Robinson

    Greetings and Peace

    I have held off responding to your comment, as I’d hoped that others might offer their thoughts, thereby helping me to better understand your point. I also read the scriptures you have provided, and prayed for understanding in the hope that our words would bless all concerned.
    Romans 8: 29-30 states that: “For whom he did fore-know, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the first born among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, then he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified!”
    By the above text, I think it is apparent that God would certainly know those whom would believe upon His Son, long before the foundations of the world. But this should not be used as an occasion to suggest that God had already pre-determined WHO would be His. What God foresaw, was that He pre-determined who are His, from those whom are not, by the fact that those whom believed, conformed to the image of His Son.
    Being conformed to the image of Jesus Christ means to try and be like him. To follow Him, and to glorify God, as He did. In other words, the predestination carries a stipulation that is dependent upon the decisions, actions and heart of those whom believe. I agree that God already knows those whom will conform to the image of His Son, but I do not. As a result, I am careful to make sure that I do not neglect any opportunity to witness.
    John 6:35-47 simply states that all those whom believe in Jesus Christ MAY (not will) have everlasting life. Those whom truly conform to Him, will not be taken from His hand. As it is written in I Timothy 2: 1-6 it is God’s desire that all are saved, and that Jesus Christ died for all. Therefore again, the burden of eternity rests with the choice of men.
    If I understood your comment correctly, and I apologize if I did not, I believe that you are suggesting that all of this study of scripture, particularly prophecy is moot, since none of us, whom are chosen, or at least believe, need worry over anything. Our salvation is secure.
    Unfortunately, as I consider this, I realize that a large portion of the New Testament gives instruction of how to live our lives by first having love for God, and second by seeking His will, for His glorification. Further, as it is written in 1 Timothy 4: 1, that in the latter days, some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits and doctrines of devils.
    If one then departs from the faith, they no longer conform to the image of Jesus Christ, who sweat literal blood to remain faithful to His Father’s will. Hence, it is consistent with scripture to understand that they are in danger of losing their most precious gift, as written in 2 Peter 2: 18-22. I would that none test these waters, they are deeper than one might think.
    Therefore, since the Bible specifically states that in the latter times, many will seek after another god, and lose their inheritance, I think it is a worthy thing to consider how paradise will be lost. I don’t believe God’s vision of the end was put into His book to fill space, nor could it be wise to ignore it’s text for two reasons: one, God knows the heart of each of us, and a simple prayer of repentance will not resolve a heart that still clings to it’s desires. True repentance requires a change of heart, a new man, one who loves God for who He is, what He has done, not for what He will give.
    Secondly, God loves all of His creation, and is not a respecter of persons. We all sin, and are not worthy of the prize. A heart that loves God, loves also the things that God loves, and is not willing that any should perish, and that all should come to true repentance. The last days of the devil will separate those whom truly love God, from those that deceive themselves. Satan is not going to trick any one into submission to him, rather, he will simply be allowed to orchestrate events that will strip bare the heart to the core, and once revealed, will lead the body to it’s quest.
    As long as I breathe, I hope to offer something that will change the course of the hearts that I am known to. This is not vain glory or image building, but a service that was once brought to me.

    • Dan said

      Please find me the verse on “True repentance” Oh, what there is none? That would be Satan’s trick, to add things to salvation that do not exsist. To make salvation a performance and not a gift.

      Trying to be like Christ and being Christ like could be looked at differently. One would be to strive to imitate while the other would be the organic outflow of Christ in us, one would be our action and one would be Christ’s action in us. Why would Christ say his yoke was easy and his burden light and yet tell his believers that loyalty to him was going to end up in their persecution and death. A paradox or a truth.

      Peter was a follower(a disciple) who walked along with Christ on earth and saw many miracles including people raised from the dead and yet when the pressure was on, he folded. He was a follower of Christ as was Judas, a disciple, while not even saved yet they were more conformed to Christ’s behaviors in appearance than you could have ever dreamed of being. The mystery was that while they were followers of Christ, Christ was not in them. The had not allowed Christ to transform them but were busy trying to transform themselves. This is the modern church, just as the Galatians were busily trying to perfect themselves, the Spirit of Christ lost its power to transform and they make the truth a lie, an imitation of the truth but one that denies the power behind it. Peter could not believe that it was easy, he wanted it to be hard, as did Judas. I bet they both would have picked up a sword (matter of fact Peter did) and fought for the over throw of Rome. But that was not the work of God: John 6 28 Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works God requires?”
      29 Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”

      If you truly think you have conformed to Christ than you are deceived, you may be trying but you are so far from the requirements of what Christ did on our behalf, that when your blinders are removed some day you will not be able to lift your face up when you see the dirty rags you are offering as proof of your salvation. You may be like Peter and Judas, ready to prove your salvation with the sword in your hand but you are as unworthy of the gift of Christ as a the prostitute or the drug addict living on the street actually you may be in more danger because self righteousness is the one blind spot that many “Christians” have. If it were our behaviors that Christ judged us by we are all going to perish, luckily it is upon his righteousness we stand and not our works.

      And finally your butchery of God’s word can not go unchallenged [ 1 Timothy 4: 1, that in the latter days, some shall depart (seduce, draw away, repel, take up a position away) from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits and doctrines of devils.]
      It is a warning from Paul about religious men who would teach a new or different faith. How could they be saved if they are teaching a different gospel, a gospel that had a bunch of rules to prove you were saved. Depart is the Greek word aphistémi: which means lead away, seduce, depart, abstain from, draw away, repel, take up a position away from.
      These are people who have taken up a position against the faith, it is not implied here that they were ever saved. As a matter a fact they were some of the original apostates that were actively trying to add to the Gospel. If your saved you will prove it by not getting married or if you are saved you will not eat certain kinds of meat. Paul called them hypocrites because they no doubt believed these new set of rules made them more holy and better “Christians” than others. This is not about anyone falling back into “sin” or living a worldly lifestyle, it was about false religious teachers introducing works salvation just as Paul had encountered with the Galatians!

      [God knows the heart of each of us, and a simple prayer of repentance will not resolve a heart that still clings to it’s desires.]
      Acts 16 30: Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” 31They said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household
      Romans 10 8: that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, 9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.

      [True repentance requires a change of heart, a new man, one who loves God for who He is, what He has done, not for what He will give.]

      Repentance from the Greek word metanoia means Change of Mind and was used exclusively when talking to Jewish non believers because of their presuppositions of who Christ was. The misuse of this word is from a terrible misunderstanding of repentance and penitence in which the 2 words are comingled to come up with a meaning that never existed in the Bible. Some sort of hybrid word meaning a change of heart that brings on sorrow. Hogwash and a direct result of Catholicism influence on the body of Christ (the same ones in Timothy who would forbid marriage and eating of certain meats is my guess)

      [Secondly, God loves all of His creation, and is not a respecter of persons. We all sin, and are not worthy of the prize. A heart that loves God, loves also the things that God loves, and is not willing that any should perish, and that all should come to true repentance]

      Again the word, true repentance, no where in the Bible, you are correct that God would not any to perish at least but you must not have Romans 7 in your Bible:
      21I find then the law, that, to me who would do good, evil is present. 22For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: 23but I see a different law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity under the law of sin which is in my members. 24Wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me out of the body of this death? 25I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then I of myself with the mind, indeed, serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
      Paul was saved but his flesh was still under the law of sin as it is for us all, how that plays out is different, at different times for different people. The walk with Christ is happening in the inner man even when it is not always apparent to those who sit on the outside in judgment of others and think they know which behaviors are proof of a persons salvation. Read 1st Corinthians and get your Strong’s concordance and see where that Church was when Paul wrote them. They must not have been saved by your standards yet Paul addressed them as Brothers and Sisters in Christ. Adultery, sexual immorality, carnal thinking, back biting, spiritual pride, arrogance, worldly living were all addressed by Paul who called them babes in Christ. He did not question their salvation but addressed their problems and did it with love and concern and he did not suggest they find “TRUE REPENTENCE” your phony works salvation false teaching.

      [The last days of the devil will separate those whom truly love God, from those that deceive themselves. Satan is not going to trick any one into submission to him, rather, he will simply be allowed to orchestrate events that will strip bare the heart to the core, and once revealed, will lead the body to it’s quest.]
      WHAT?? Translation: deception is trickery. I hope you are not teaching this stuff to anyone.
      2nd Corinthians 11: 13For such men are false apostles, deceitful workers, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ. 14No wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. 15Therefore it is not surprising if his servants also disguise themselves as servants of righteousness, whose end will be according to their deeds.
      To disguise, to deceive, to lie, it is all trickery. Your words betray your heart and it is not good that you have so willfully tried to deceive those who would simply believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and be saved(Acts 16: 30-31)

      I will not question that you believe you have the answer to salvation but I do question your insight and knowledge of the Bible. I pray that you will open your mind to the truth and give God the glory for real this time.

  14. truther said

    Ray Comfort and John MacArthur are both heretics who teach damnable heresy concerning salvation! If you always believed that you must “make a life commitment to Christ” and “to stop sinning” to come to Christ, you have believed a works gospel in disguise!

    2 threads that expose and refute Lordship salvation, I recommend ALL read this!:

    LS- http://christianchat.com/showthread.php?p=142135#post142135

    LS part 2- http://christianchat.com/showthread.php?p=144140#post144140

  15. Meg said

    I found a website that is telling why conspiracy theories should not practice as jesus-is-savior.com promotes-

    Christians & Conspiracy Theories: A CALL TO REPENTANCE-
    http://www.acts17-11.com/conspire.html

  16. CJ said

    I remember stumbling on this site when looking up various Christian subjects or people. Every time I did I would see this website pop up trying to claim that this person or that subject was false etc. It always made me sad to see someone so aggressive against other Christians, and attacking them even.

    You know but it reminds me of scripture where Jesus talks about the wheat and the weeds (Matthew 13:24-29 & Matthew 13:36-43 explains it) and how there are the Christians that are born of the seeds that Jesus has spread, but there are also false Christians that are there because of the seed that Satan spread. The weeds were most likely the darnel weed that looks exactly like wheat until it matures and the wheat puts forth grain and darnel does not. But they look similiar until then. Now the servants (these angels) were not allowed to uproot them until harvest time, so basically Jesus will deal with it when he feels it’s time.

    But Then there are passages like Matthew 7 where Jesus does talk about trees and says that we will know trees and that is Jesus warning us as his disciples to be aware and cognizant and not allowing ourselves to be accompanied by these people who are really bad trees. So it’s one thing for this guy who runs this website to criticize other supposed Christian artists who may have questionable lyrics to their lyrics, or questionable doctrines. But it’s another thing when you being attacking everyone and claiming your version of scripture is the only correct one. When you begin formalizing conspiracy theories with fabricated pictures of people holding guns and I could go on. Signs up what appears to be someone who MAY be mentally unstable.

    And for the record all this talk of what version is more correct based on this mss text or that text and we should read this KJV over that one because NIV uses this. No matter what English translation you read, it is still an English translation, you are still reading an English translation. So if you really want to read Gods word in its’ purest form without worrying it has been tampered, go learn Hebrew and Koine Greek and then the only way you go wrong is if you mess it up yourself.

    Anyway that’s my thoughts on this article, I am glad someone wrote something finally about this site exposing and warning people of falling into this trap of following something that could become a hidden cult. We also have to remember that the passages that address those who follow strange teachers are those who are looking for it. People who want to believe they are saved while still being able to sin and not worry about it will love this website. It tells them that Jesus is love and tolerance. It tells them that they are saved and going to heaven and yet that while that is true they can continue to have sex while not being married because well they are saved.

    Yet I have sat down and studied and shown the scriptures to people who admit there are plenty of scriptures where the apostle Paul says that you must repent and you must not live like this if you claim to be a Christian. People who believe that have to rip the book of 1st John out of their Bibles because it contradicts their beliefs along with the book of James. Anyway I will stop here.

    May the Lamb that was slain get the reward of His suffering! AMEN!

    • Chad said

      The danger of jesus-is-savior.com is that they have an awful lot of truth there. “Fortunately” they have so much error, it’s easy to spot. There are too many out there that are much more subtle.
      I also liked what you said about learning Hebrew and Greek. Most people have a Strong’s and consider that sufficient, but don’t know the language. That being said, there really are many really bad translations out there and some translations that aren’t really translations at all. My prob with the the KIng James is that the English used was spoken 400 years ago and our language has changed enough that some words don’t even have the same meaning any more, it can be very confusing to many people. I had an opportunity to visit the Passages exhibit while it was here in Atlanta and saw a LOT of original ancient English bibles. Most modern English speaking people would not even be able to get past the spelling.

  17. Elijah said

    Paul Washer is a heretic who openly attempts to make Jesus a liar. Paul will answer to God and be found a liar. All those who adore Paul Washer and exalt him are anointed by God to test the true body of Christ. In other words, Paul Washer is of Satan, by God’s command. Paul Washer and his flock has been spiritually polluted and they don’t love the truth. They know the word of God but they do not obey it. Paul Washer and his flock’s repentance is false.

    Concerning the following types of so-called “pastors”, “ministers”, “preachers”, “reverends”, “prophets”, “teachers” and “watchmen”:

    -If they wear a suit, they are in the wrong with God (Matthew 6:25 KJV)
    -If they don’t communicate they are in the wrong with God (1 Timothy 6:14-18 KJV)
    -If they complicate the simplicity of the gospel they are in the wrong with God (Acts 13:10)
    -If they condemn those who already believe that they are saved they are in the wrong with God (John 3:17 KJV)
    -If they don’t give to whosoever asks of them they are in the wrong with God (Matthew 5:42-46 KJV)
    -If they are rich enough to have a ministry, outreach, mega-church or travel the world they are in the wrong with God (Matthew 10:25 KJV)
    -If they can’t love their brethren they are in the wrong with God (1 John 3:17 KJV)

    Paul Washer is guilty of all of these, therefore he has no right to be esteemed in anyway. It would be best for Paul Washer and his followers to keep silent until they can understand the truth about Love and that God loved even the foolish of the earth enough to die for their sins. However, according to those who wish to pervert the simplicity of the gospel (but are wise in their own conceit) foolish people cannot enter into heaven.

    Paul Washer is a serious danger to all those who obey not the truth in these last days. He and other rich men are going to have much difficulty entering into heaven.

    I’m not of spurgeon, calvin, paul washer or any other rich man who wears a suit to impress men.

    I AM OF CHRIST NOW AND FOREVERMORE.

    • David Emme said

      First,

      Will have to look at the scriptures given for your standards, but don’t you think it would be better to show how Washer does all this you claim and giving a resource where we can find it? In other words, I could call you a heretic according to the standards you gave and you could do the same with me. Problem is simply lobbing an accusation does not make the accusation correct. Even in the bible, it requires two or three witnbesses to brinbg a valid accusation.

      Of course, I wander if some of this we can apply as James also questioned the faith of some because of their lack of action in James 2, is James the first pastor now a Heretic for violating your standard?

    • Chad said

      I better throw out my 2 suits so I won’t go to hell! I should probably throw out half of my New Testament too, thanks.
      Ok, seriously, what does wearing a suit have to do with Matthew 6.25? I also noticed that every scripture you gave was marked KJV, so it looks like you have another axe to grind.
      Communicate? Now in modern English, that would be ‘share’. As far as I know Paul does share, he also spent 10 years in Peru giving up his life for the lost there, he shares the Gospel and he has shared of his substance. So your accusation is baseless (I know Paul by-the-way)
      Acts 13.10 refers top a sorcerer who was trying to tell Sergius Paulus that the Gospel was not true, not complicating the simplicity of it as you suggest.
      John 3.17 is refering to the fact that the WORLD is ALREADY condemned and Jesus came to save it, not condemn it, it has nothing to do with condemning those who are already saved. Besides, no one but the JUDGE can condemn. If you had read the concise post above, and read your bible prayerfully and carefully, including the scriptures listed and expounded in the post, also the wealth of other scriptures confirming it, you will see that Paul is concerned for the souls of those NOT saved who think they are. What I can see is that you have a lot of single verse scripture, out of context which even as you try to stretch them, still don’t even fit with the accusations you tack onto them. It seems as if you don’t even know the scriptures. But you do an awful lot of condemning of heretics, with nothing to back it up. You seem to have come to a doctinal position on someone else’ promotion, without benfit of reading and understanding the scripture yourself.

  18. debbie said

    what is wrong with paul washer he is a hell fire an brimstone preacher tellin it like it is.

    • Dave Emme said

      That is the whole point why he is a heretic. Only Independent Fundamental Baptists(as I am one of and not afraid to critique my own) are allowed to preach hell fire and brimstone.

      Actually, it is more about repentance when Macarthur put out his first book on Lordship Salvation and Evangelicals started writing in their own nbooks and journals agains Lordship Salvation.

      What I believe happened is when they defined repentance as faith since Macarthur was big on repentance in his teachings, well since Lordship Salvationis wrong, so is repentance. The fallacy is he also believes the Trinity and the diety of Christ fits in better with Lordship Salvationbut will not hear many disagree with the Trinity or deity of Christ.

      Now, us fundamental Baptists copied Evangelcals and started saying the same exac things about repentance is faith or not needed for salvation. Not all of us agree but at times you could say it is a fundamentalist belief as far as Independent Fubdamental Baptism-the ones who taught this would be like the head of the democratic party or someone high in stature to democrats saying tea parties are eacist for disagreeing with President Obama and all of a sudden any liberal blogger/writer/radio show/tv news shows all decide to say the same thing.

      When I first heard Washer and some of his other sermons my viewpoint has always been he was teaching Lordship Salvation w2ithout calling it that and maybe that is what we who agree with that doctrine should follow his lead and just call it salvation!

      • Job said

        Dave Emme:

        The issue is that MacArthur, Washer, Spurgeon, Paul, John the Baptist, and Jesus Christ never taught that repentance is faith. Instead, their position – THE BIBLICAL POSITION – is that repentance is necessary for conversion. It is fascinating. I get one group on this site who insists that Acts 2:38 means that the Trinity doctrine is false. I get another group on this site who pretends Acts 2:38 says “Then Peter said unto them, Be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost” as if “REPENT AND” does not come between “unto them” and “Be baptized.”

        Mark 1:4
        John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.

        Mark 1:15
        And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

        Mark 2:17
        When Jesus heard it, he saith unto them, They that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

        Mark 6:12
        And they went out, and preached that men should repent.

        And so on, and so on, and so on. Are you claiming that Jesus Christ and His apostles claimed that repentance was faith?

        Is it that such people pretend that these verses don’t exist? Or is it that these verses don’t apply for this dispensation? Or that they are too inconvenient to free will decision regeneration because so many people are making decisions for Christ without repenting?

  19. Hey Job

    Ray Comfort and John MacArthur are both heretics who teach damnable heresy concerning salvation! If you always believed that you must “make a life commitment to Christ” and “to stop sinning” to come to Christ, you have believed a works gospel in disguise! </blockquote.

    Oh this sounds like the Emergent way of thinking. If you repent of sin its considered a good work therefore a dead work. If you expose false teaching that too is a good work. In fact if you do anything that you feel you have to do in order to keep your salvation then it becomes a good work.

    You can't come into salvation unless you have climbed off your pedestal and humbled yourself before Jesus Christ and confess yourself to be a sinner, unworthy to live, and in dire need of forgiveness. Hence you believe that Jesus Christ died on the cross for you, that His blood washes you clean and you are born again and now have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

    Does now mean you are now free to do whatever you want? No. Because the Holy Spirit in your life now convicts you even more and you find you are willingly and lovingly humbling yourself lower and lower as you bow before Jesus Christ the Son of God, your King of Kings.

    Anyone who has a problem with repenting before, during or after being saved has a problem.

    The more I read on a daily basis and the more comments I receive from people the more I realise that hardly anyone has a clue as to what being saved is about.

    PS, Job. What's your take on Catholicism?

  20. oh please fix my blockquote at the end put a >

  21. jacob said

    I am confused.So you can keep sinning and go to HEAVEN as long as you believe in JESUS CHRIST.Stopping sinning is works salvation as Dave Stewart on Jesus-is-savior.com says.Then why does he write so many condemning articles about sin like pornography,false religions,homosexuality and abortion and say there all roads to hell.Is he trying to say as long as you accept GOD`S son JESUS CHRIST your ok with GOD And free to sin?I thought if you serve GOD you go to heaven and if you serve SATAN THE DEVIL through SIN you go to hell.

  22. Robert said

    you better wake up infowars.com henrymakow.com ohcanadamovie.com
    jesus-is-savior.com

  23. Winston said

    It is ironic that most lordship advocates are calvinists (washer,mcarthur,white) if they believe in total depravity’ why are they telling unregenerate people they are saved by human effort. As the Calvinist cliche goes “hey dead man, raise yourself!”

  24. keith said

    did everyone forget 1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins ,he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and cleanse from all unrighteousness.
    also that the flesh can not be trusted.Only GOD/JESUS IS 100 PERCENT perfect.Once you get saved your still gonna sin,whether it is willfully knowingly and whether you ask forgiveness is another story.If you admit your guilt and ask for forgiveness from an open sincere hear GOD knows it.He knows your heart.It is heard today to live a pure clean life out in this sin filled world today but we must try and put our Faith in GOD to help us not trust in ourselves but in HIM

  25. Max said

    Although not really agreeing or disagreesing with any of this – we are suppose to use the bible alone, and God is not the author of confusion, I wanted to point out something about Simon the Sorcery – a favorite verse of mine, and you are right, it does say something about being saved.

    Simon the Sorcery was never saved because he never believed. He thought the Holy Spirit was put into people like magic and it had nothing to do with God working on the believer and believing at all. According to the sorcerer, it had to do with magic of what men did with their hands.

    http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%2010:9&version=KJV
    Romans 10:9
    9That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

    http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts+8%3A37&version=KJV
    Acts 8:37
    37And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

  26. Meg said

    I found that I was wrong about judging others,(see
    http://www.unleavenedbreadministries.org/?page=christiansnipers ), and I apologized of that. I learned that judging about others about people’s teaching and I found that all people are not perfect about their teachings but they teaching the true Gospel and I should not have no business judging them. Only God’s words are is perfect. Also I should not have no business judging other false preachers but I hope that the ture Gospel will save them. I should be use discernment, but not judging them. If somebody read some of my previous posts about me judging other people and offened by it, I say I apologized for it I hope that you forgive me for it. This is my last time posting my comments here and I whish you the best. I’m moving on.

  27. yelow48 said

    The reaction to Lordship salvation is understandable. Most of it comes from misunderstanding true conversion. Repentance and then submitting oneself to the Lordship of Jesus Christ. This includes accepting the death on the cross for one’s sin and accepting a life of being obedient to Christ or serving Christ because He is Lord. I live in a society were man is consider his own boss and is able and can do what he wants. God on the other hand sees man as sinful, arrogant and in desperation need of being under the Lordship of Jesus Christ for man can’t get himself out of the mess he is in. The gospel of Christ is this he died and is risen and is seated at the right hand of God. He bought bought us free from sin but that buying means slavery to Christ. Hence Lordship salvation. Both an expression of God’s grace and our responsibility in it.

  28. Destiny said

    jesus-is-savior.com half disgusts me and half makes me laugh. Mr. Stewart has developed a list on his websites of people and bands who are claiming to be Christians and are not (according to him) and therefore they are false prophets and evil. I would say that if I ever got on his “Evil List” I would be doing something right.

  29. Chuck said

    I was at Moody Bible Institute in 1985 when this “Lordship” debate was blowing up. I was incensed that folks were trying to tie anything to faith. Faith alone saves. The reformers knew that. It was what the reformation was all about, right? Not so fast. Faith alone saves, but what KIND of faith? Upon further examination I realized the debate was all about what MAN was doing, not what GOD was doing. After going to a Reformed Baptist church, I started to study the issue further. I started wondering if I was saved since the Calvinist at my church were asking us all to question if we were actually converted. I began to examine scripture and realize that there a bunch of verses that deal with assurance. Those verses are proofs of what GOD has done. Real saving faith produces change. There is no way a person can receive the Holy Spirit and not change. The scripture teaches that we have to change. Period. Jesus came to destroy the works of the Devil. Now the problem is that some overly zealous pastors don’t see the change quick enough and write people off. Or some Calvinist preacher frightens his congregation by getting them to doubt with hopes of motivating them to change. Manipulation doesn’t work. A tree takes a long time to grow. In fact, when it is underground, before it breaks the surface, some would say it isn’t a tree at all. Even though the seed has just a little shoot underground that is trying to break through, it’s still a tree. But if it never comes up after years of watering…no tree is present.

  30. Tom Royal said

    You now when I read all of the “stuff” on your web site it’s no wonder the unsaved world today looks at Christians and wonders why they can’t get along with each other.Actualy Muslims are more united than some Christian groups.We can agree to disagree about certain things but the way you go about is vile and a lot like the heathen who don’t know Christ.Maybe you need to reexamine things!

    • Chad said

      Muslims united? The unsaved look at people who call themselves ‘christian’ but are not and gives them a reason to mock. We can agree to disagree on some things, sure, but there is also this thing called NO COMPROMISE, we can’t just water down the truth so as not to offend. We should try not to offend, but not compromise to attain that.

  31. simon said

    Salvation on our part is a two part act. Acknowledging I am what God says I am a slave of sin and going headlong to do my own thing and accept God’s gift of grace Jesus Christ as both Saviour and Lord. This means not only the need to be cleansed from my sin but also being bought by that same blood. This means I give up the right to myself and the right to how I am to live. Hence the term Lordship salvation. It is the denial that Jesus is my Lord that gets us into so much trouble. Over the years this mindset has been abolished so we could be a Christian and do our own thing, this is unacceptable in God’s sight and detrimental to our spiritual welfare.

  32. God is our power.sprite and love We believe God always with us..

  33. kevin said

    I believe that we over think ourselves to ignorance. What I mean is that if you say this man said this and that man said that and this doctrine is and is not, we get not only ourselves into a state of confusion but also those who read or listen to these things. If a man teaches a lie he will suffer if done so willfully. Every man is a liar and none can escape this fact. Romans 3;4 yet by confession we are in truth in God’s Word 1John 5:10. My point is that spending time tearing apart those who teach Jesus is Lord, tears apart the Church. Is this not an abomination to the Lord, aka, sowing discord? Maybe some teach things that are not clear so there is debate, such as rapture. Salvation is clear in Romans 10:9-10. That cannot be argued it is cornerstone of faith. all other is speculation. Be renewed and grow but be carefull. There are wolves and false prophets to contend with but they are evident by signs and wonders and working of miracles. 2Thes 2:9-12

  34. Toby Cook said

    The site is deadly, discernment a gift of the Holy Spirit never lies. There is deceit all over the home page, you claim demonology against those perusing Christ differently then you? There is no condemnation in Christ, you spew it in every way possible.

    The Lord God loves all music, regardless of what it sounds like to your ears. Our songs are a sweet sound to the Lord God, no matter the beat the tempo or the background!!! If the person presenting the song is singing to uplift themselves and to praise the Lord their songs are favored. Don’t you dare judge brothers like Toby or LeCrae. You don’t know their walk, strife, background or the depth of their faith!

    Next up, my children attend public school and it is preparing them. The secular world is the proving grounds Christ uses to temper his soldiers!!! We as believers can not stick our head in the sand and pretend there is no secular world. This is our battle field I’ll tell you!!! Our commission from the lips of Christ himself is to bring the good news of his love and our joyous freedom from sin thanks to his sacrifice to this Godless world. You cannot fight a battle when you refuse to acknowledge the battlefield. Sheltering your children from the tests they must stand against is injustice to them, you leave them unprepared to face this world which they must.

    As for the original KJV being the only version of scripture not bastardized you seem to have forgotten the first translation of Holy Scripture to English was the birth of perversion to these scriptures. This however doesn’t matter you preach damnation for those reading a different translation??? Who are you to pass judgement on what the Lord God recognizes as Holy? He deems all who seek Jesus as worthy no matter which reference they use to strengthen their walk.

    The truth in short is God loves all, though harsh judgement will be passed for those who lead those seeking faith off track. This site surely does that. Focusing on Catholicism and abortion, music and homosexuality! Who’s walk are you strengthening? Who are you supporting through this difficult path of the mortal world? How do you intend to glorify God by drawing attention from him to such earthly matters? We as a family, as Christ’s bride and body are to be of a higher mind. To show the world the beauty of life through a closer walk with our savior by example is our mission. For those who traffic in such rubbish smear the very basis of faith, the very root of our relationship with Christ!!!

    Be of a higher mind, be supportive of your brethren, above all keep your eyes fixed on the most Holy and HE will not let you stumble. Right now I’m moved to tears for you, for those you have distracted from Christ, for those that you persecute. Perhaps most of all for your children and the others in need that you have been charged to SERVE!!! One last piece for anyone signing to these distractions, FAITH WITHOUT WORKS IS DEAD!!! If you claim to know the truth but don’t show it, if you have the gifts of the spirit and don’t share them, then surely your faith is dead and of no use to anyone…

    I will pray for you all and love you all from the depths of my soul

  35. Keri said

    I do somewhat have to agree about Paul Washer. I listened to his “shocking sermon” and what I found most shocking was his lack of understanding of grace. Paul Washer teaches a works-based doctrine. I do agree that Paul Washer confuses the root of salvation and the fruit of salvation. He is very works driven. We are saved by Jesus’ finished work on the cross…it is only by our faith in Him that our lives are transformed. If we go through life trying to “be good” instead of letting the Holy Spirit lead us and convict us, we are depending on ourselves for salvation. What one person may be convicted of is not the next person’s convictions in all cases. The Holy Spirit may tell me it is not okay for me to wear red lipstick because I may look like a tramp and draw men’s attention to myself, but that may not be your conviction. The Holy Spirit may show you that you cannot watch TV because that is a stumbling block in your walk, but it does not mean it is a conviction for me. Paul Washer gives a seriously long list of things that “one may do” that would be proof they are not a Christian. I cannot agree that he understands grace. Also, I believe he is a Calvanist, which is not Biblical, so I cannot agree with him from a theological point-of-view either.

    I cannot agree with any of the comments he would make about Ray Comfort or John MacArthur, though.

    Jesus-is-savior is now shutdown. Maybe as a result of the owner getting busted in a felony recently? That would be my guess.

    • John Kepler said

      “Also, I believe he is a Calvanist, which is not Biblical, so I cannot agree with him from a theological point-of-view either.”

      It’s not Biblical? Maybe you should do a little bit of research before you make an allegation like that. If you still disagree, then at least you can write, “- an incorrect interpretation of the scripture.” But it’s not:

      Romans 9:11-21

      “…though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God’s purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls— she was told, “The older will serve the younger.” As it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.” What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God’s part? By no means! For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills. You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use?”

      You may read as much ‘context’ as you wish, but I assure you, this verse means what it appears to mean.

      God bless.

  36. Those who do not know the truth fabricate doctrines out of the Holy Scriptures to satisfy and justify themselves what they believe it is true,and people follow them believing that is true.Outside the Orthodox and Catholic Church built by the Lord Jesus of Nazareth and not by men is the tower of Babel.Faith is not a legal or financial account with debit and credit which God imputs entries on the credit side for us.It is not at all an imputation by God,but a real transformation by Him to the real repentant faith,for faith without transformative repentance is the most fake money in the world,and repentance without obedience is the most dirty money in the world.

  37. James Stone said

    I’m new to the Lordship Salvation debate but I do use the Ray Comfort method of street evangelism and so I want to ask a few questions. Just to be clear, I am a simple street evangelist, not a church historian or expert theologian, so I can rely only on those truths I can learn from the bible.

    First, everything I do is only a means to help the Holy Spirit reach the person’s heart, there are no formula’s or gimmicks.

    Second, I use scripture quotes (NKJV) to enforce everything I say to them.

    Third, I trust God’s leading me in these conversations, knowing what to say when, etc.

    When witnessing, I use the Law of God to help the person see their sinfulness, and then I ask them “Knowing this if you died tonight and stood before God do you think He would allow you to enter Heaven or send you to Hell.” If they say hell I proceed, if they say heaven I show them why this is not true. When they see they are condemned, I tell them the good news, that Jesus suffered, died, and rose again so that he could act as their substitute in the judgment of God. The death you deserve he received, the life He deserves you can receive if you turn from trusting in (whatever false world view they trust in) and trust in Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior.

    If they show conviction about this truth (i.e. they are not still arguing in support of their world view or against the gospel). I ask them if they would like to accept Jesus Christ as the Lord and Savior. If they say yes, then I tell them to pray, in their own words, and if they want, I give them some guidance like “tell Jesus about the decision you made…”.

    Finally, I believe if a person, acting under the conviction of the Holy Spirit, puts their trust in Jesus Christ, as Lord and Savior, then the Holy Spirit of God will perform a miracle and create a new heart in them, IOW, they will be born again.

    I do not ask or expect people to turn from their sins, feel sorrow from their sins, or commit to serving Jesus until after they are born again because I do not believe that we can do these things unless we are born again. I believe our new heart leads the mind to these new works as fruit of salvation.

    Please tell me, is this a correct biblical method?

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