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My Questions On Many Contemporary Practices Of Spiritual Warfare And Deliverance

Posted by Job on May 15, 2009

When I first began this site – as well as its now defunct predecessor – it was primarily one devoted to spiritual warfare and deliverance based on what I had learned from reading works by such people as Frank Hammond, John Eckhart, and to a lesser degree Rebecca Brown, Frank Peretti and Derek Prince. (Now where this field is considered to be dominated by Pentecostals and charismatics, please know that Frank Hammond, considered to be one of the most influential teachers in this area, had a Baptist background, having been trained at Baylor University and Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary.)

Now when doing research – inasmuch as web searches can be considered research! – for teachings and material to include, quite naturally I would encounter many statements by Christians opposed to spiritual warfare and deliverance ministries and ignored them, chalking it up to faithlessness and false doctrines. However, one of them did capture my attention. It did not dismiss the possibility of Christians conducting legitimate deliverance ministries out of hand, which forced me to pay attention to it.

However, this article stated that the methods  to cast out demons popularized by Hammond and fellow travelers not New Testament doctrine and did not conform to the example by which Jesus Christ and Paul cast out demons. Instead, the “Pigs In The Parlor” and “He Came To Set The Captives Free” spiritual deliverance techniques far more closely resembled accounts of how rabbis used to cast out demons as recorded in the Talmud and other rabbinical writings. This document further stated that there was a line of Messianic prophecies among the rabbis that when the Messiah came, He would not have to rely on the laborious techniques of the old covenant rabbis, but instead would be able to cast out demons with power and authority, the spoken command. See, for example, Luke 4:33-37. Also note that Paul’s example of casting out a demon was much more after the manner of Jesus Christ in Acts 16:18. And the clincher, as far as I was concerned, was the assertion that the Frank Hammond method was also very similar to Roman Catholic exorcisms! (How ironic that J.P. Moreland, upset over a friend of his having to leave a prominent evangelical post upon this friend of his converting to Roman Catholicism, stated that evangelical Christians should abandon sola scriptura, calling it “Bible idolatry“, and suggested that among other things Roman Catholic traditions on exorcisms was an area where evangelicals should learn from Catholics!)

Now having rejected all of the other arguments against contemporary spiritual warfare and deliverance ministries, this one – that it did  not conform to the example of scripture and that it was an imitation of practices of intertestamental Judaism and of Roman Catholicism – I did not have an adequate answer for. So, I decided that while I would leave the existing spiritual warfare material on the site – reasoning that they are, at the very least, better than nothing and certainly preferable to the modern evangelical trend of relying more and more on psychology and psychotherapy, fields that were largely invented by New Agers, occultists, atheists, and sexual perverts (do a little research, it’s true!) – while refraining from adding new ones until I came across more Bible based doctrines of conducting spiritual warfare and deliverance.

Sadly, I have not encountered such doctrines as of yet, and in the past year or so have focused less on this area and more on “Christianity 101”, things having to do with the basics of the Christian faith and Christian living. Perhaps when I am done with grounding myself in the basics of the faith – matters of which I was very presumptuous and prideful while being wholly ignorant and immature – it will be a good time to investigate the doctrines of casting devils out of people anew.

Still, I have continued to discover more things about the teachings of Frank Hammond in particular that trouble me. First, Hammond takes a vast array of sinful habits and behaviors and attributes them to demons. (I actually had the goal of reproducing Hammond’s “demon groupings” chart on this site and never completed it because it was so large, now I am rather glad that I failed in that undertaking.) But the more that I ponder his teachings in this area, I perceive this as not considering Romans 7. This is not to say that Frank Hammond rejects Romans 7, but I have not seen him incorporate Romans 7 in his doctrines or applications in any careful way. This is very serious, because a study of Romans 7 is vital in discerning whether activity is demonic or simply due to what Romans 7 calls “the body of sin.” Instead, Frank Hammond advocates relying on a Holy Spirit gift for discerning demons. Now how does the Holy Spirit gift for discerning demons operate, and how are we to use it in a church or ministry context? The Bible does not say, so we have to rely on the teachings of Frank Hammond to tell us. Also, where Romans 7 makes it clear that there are some battles with our old natures that Christians are going to have to deal with until we get to heaven, Hammond’s teachings claim that such merely represents failed or incomplete spiritual deliverances, so we have to return to the deliverance ministers to do still more confessions of past sins in counseling sessions and then have still more nested interlocking demon groups buried and hiding deep inside of us, demons and demon groupings that the Holy Spirit gift of discernment failed to identify in previous sessions, out. That does appear to contradict this passage of Romans 7.

Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful. For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin. For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I. If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good. Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

Claiming that this passage does not refer to the striving of Christians against the flesh and the need of grace to overcome ignores scriptures that can be used to interpret this scripture such as Galatians 5:24-25 and 1 Peter 2:11. This doctrine makes it appear that Christian living should, save an intermittent battle or three with a demon or temptation, basically be strife and trouble free, and that any Christian who is not experiencing Hammond’s definition of “life more abundantly” is either demonized or still engaged in sin habits that need to be broken, is living under some “generational curse”, has some “demon of inheritance” or that needs to be discerned and broken, and so on.

These doctrines deny the fact that Christian life is supposed to be inherently trying and difficult … one of persecution, chastening and affliction, dying to self daily, carrying the cross or cross-life. It makes me wonder if Hammond or any of the others in his school has ever read Pilgrim’s Progress or anything similar. It also, in a style that anticipated the current Oprahesque style of modern Christianity, which allows a person to reject accountability. Where today a professed Christian who follows the New Agey Dr. Phil psychobabbleanalytical doctrines can simply blame parents, teachers, classmates, spouses, pastors, or any number of emotional or mental problems for their unBiblical behavior, the Hammond school allows a person to simply say “the devil made me do it” and profess a need for spiritual deliverance. Either way, you get to blame someone else rather than yourself, and in this way you deny your need for a Savior and for grace, because you avoid coming to grips with your true nature. Rather than seeing yourself as a wretched sinner badly in need of grace and the work of the cross to impute righteousness to you that you do not deserve and never will, you see yourself as this basically good and decent person against whom there is this grand conspiracy of evil spirits and rotten circumstances to keep the real you, an inherently good and virtuous person, from coming out.  

Either way, it encourages you to hold onto an unBiblically inflated image of yourself and blame other entities – whether human, spiritual or institutional (as Hammond does speak of “prince demons” that control institutions, and claim that Christians should go into directed warfare against them to reclaim these institutions … there goes dominionism gospel of Eusebius and Constantine again!) – for your inability to live up to your own self image, which is an unBiblical delusion to begin with. Legitimate spiritual warfare and deliverance, indeed legitimate Christianity, is concerned with casting off this self – image delusion, which is part and parcel of the old man that needs to be cast off so that we may put on the new man (Colossians 3:10Ephesians 4:24). These doctrines make it appear that the difficult process of discipleship and Christian growth and maturity, as well as coming to grips with the nature of sin and meaning of grace, are unnecessary and unproductive, as it is far better to simply declare yourself and everyone else to be demonized. 

Most seriously, the Hammond doctrines seem to reject or distort the doctrines of original sin, the effects of the fall. They seem to create a picture where man is basically good, and all he needs to do to recover his inherent goodness and virtue is choose Jesus Christ as his Savior. Having done that, any problems or defects are not due to the exceedingly true and vile cosmic and metaphysical nature of the fall and original sin, but instead an evil spirit that is soiling what should by nature be perfect. At the very least, it in effect claims that the result of Jesus Christ’s work on the cross should have been to make us practically sinless with no need to battle and struggle in this life. Either way, Hammond’s doctrines distort or misunderstand either what the Bible says about original sin or the workings of the grace. Thus, Frank Hammond would claim that Paul was a liar when he stated in scripture that God told Paul that His grace was sufficient for Paul to deal with his thorn in the flesh (2 Corinthians 12:6-9). Instead, Hammond’s doctrine would have us believe that Paul was simply demonized and that confessing his sins and being rid of the root of bitterness due to issues from his childhood that left all these doors open was the solution, nothing about this “for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me” doctrine that does not fit into Hammond’s view of victorious abundant Christian living!

Another thing: it is amazing how legalistic and guilt inducing the Hammond method is. It would have you believing that your mind, spiritual makeup, etc. contains this innumerable vortex of labyrinths and doors. The labyrinths are these hidden chambers that can contain a demon or three that must be entered into – with the guide of the Holy Spirit gift of discernment and aided by detailed confessions in counseling sessions – to draw the demons out. The doors are sinful thoughts and actions by which a born again Blood of Jesus Christ washed Holy Spirit indwelt believer can allow a demon or demons in at any time. So, the pruning and chastening process, the battles and temptations with sin, and the need to overcome that the Bible states that all Christians must endure are attributed to some sin (often in the past) that a Christian failed to confess, someone that the Christian failed to forgive, some “spiritual door” that is allowing demons in that needs to be closed, etc.

And this is probably the worst practical part of it. The most powerful weapon that Christians have in overcoming temptation and battling the flesh is prayer. Well, Hammond explicitly tells us not to use it, and does so in the very opening pages of Pigs In The Parlor. Hammond states that spiritual warfare and deliverance is not prayer, that praying for God to help us and to overcome in our lives issues that Hammond alleges is due to demons is at best redundant and possibly ineffective. Hammond counsels us that when we pray for things, it is our asking God to grant us something that we do not have already. But, according to Hammond, as authority over evil spirits is something that we have already through Jesus Christ, why pray regarding these matters? Praying when confronted with these issues is a way of ignoring, rejecting, even DENYING the power and authority that Jesus Christ has given you! So … when dealing with what Hammond asserts is demonic activity – which again is either discerned with the appropriate Holy Spirit gifts, or discerned through other means by those lacking this gift using methods that Hammond provides – BY ALL MEANS DO NOT PRAY! (Unless, that is, a prayer for forgiveness of sin,  a prayer to forgive someone that you are holding a grudge against, a prayer to close a spiritual door that allowed the demon in, etc.) Instead, immediately go into spiritual warfare, start binding, loosing, rebuking, and casting out! (By the way, the actual meaning of “binding and loosing” given in the Matthew 16:19 and  Matthew 18:18 that spiritual deliverance ministers often refer to should be investigated … a great many Bible interpreters state that when looking at the context of the passages in which those verses appear, they refer to doctrines, particularly the authority of apostles to establish doctrines for the church, spiritual warfare and deliverance techniques.) 

This I recall, for I was personally practicing it myself for several years. I related in  My Thorn In The Flesh how my mind is frequently assaulted by many manners of evil thoughts. I presumed this to be the work of evil spirits within and without myself, and for years applied the Hammond doctrines. I now realize that these are merely things that I have allowed to enter into my MIND as a result of all of the “entertainment” (movies, TV, music, novels etc.) in my life. Also, for years I refused to do precisely what I needed to about the problem – take it before throne of grace and cast it there in prayer – because these teachings told me not to! After all, praying, according to these doctrines, was weak, defeated Christian living … stuff for babies. (Well, maybe it is according to Matthew 18:3!) If I was to be a bold, strong, powerful spiritual warrior, a world changer on the front lines making a difference for Jesus Christ, I needed to just step out on faith and take dominion and authority over these evil spirits!

And so I did. It reached the point where it was practically automatic. Evil thought enters mind. Say “demon in the Name and by the power and Blood of Jesus Christ I bind and rebuke you and command me to leave and never return.” And so on, so on, so on … if you want to talk about “vain repetitions” then boy I was doing it. Also, so long as I was “binding, rebuking, and casting out” I had no need to humble myself, feel contrition or repentance, and beg God for help. Why? I was a spirit warrior world changer taking dominion, a spiritual He – man!

Now upon trying to discover and build “Christianity 101” these past months, I decided that just maybe I wasn’t as spiritually strong or powerful as I thought. So, I would leave the taking authority warfare to the stronger brothers and sisters, and I would resort to the milk of the weak babes, which was to PRAY. So, I battled and stopped the very many months – years in fact – of automatic “I rebuke and bind you in the …” conditioning … I really had gotten to the point where I did it on autopilot without thinking! … I would refrain myself from the “self – spiritual warfare and deliverance” and simply began to tell God that I was sorry for having or entertaining those evil thoughts and asked Him to forgive me and to shield me from those thoughts in the future. Now even before I received the response that I detailed in My Thorn In The Flesh, the results were much better … cleansing, strengthening, love, joy and PEACE where the “warfare” left me with guilt and conflict.

Now is this to say that I have never benefitted from spiritual warfare and deliverance? No. That is the main reason why I have not removed the materials from the site … my testimony is my testimony and it stands. However, though my testimony is part of my faith, it is the substance or entirety of my faith. My faith is Biblical, not experiental, and it is based on God, not on what happens to me. Had I never existed, God would still exist and His Word would still be true. So, when the time is right, I pray that God will lead me to doctrines on spiritual warfare and deliverance that are faithful to His Word and thereby honor and glorify Him

Sola Scriptura. Soli Deo Gloria. Solo Christo. Sola Gratia. Sola Fide. Any spiritual warfare and deliverance that does not conform to those is but doctrines of devils! Even so, come Lord Jesus!

100 Responses to “My Questions On Many Contemporary Practices Of Spiritual Warfare And Deliverance”

  1. Diane said

    In my early Christian walk, I experienced more bondage trying to bind and loose EVERYTHING. Goodness gracious, I wanted to make sure everything was covered😀. It took a few months before I realized I had more of God’s presence, peace and strength when I prayed directly to Him, trusting and resting in Christ, & giving Him praise. The heavy foreboding dark presence that came when reading Rebecca Brown, left, and I realized that her methods were not the ones that I would be following.

    Unfortunately, friends who continued obsessively binding and loosing became paranoid as they didn’t seek a balance.

    • Job said

      Diane:

      Well, what took you only months to realize took me YEARS! Praise God sister for your growing in grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

      “The heavy foreboding dark presence that came when reading Rebecca Brown, left, and I realized that her methods were not the ones that I would be following.”

      Care to elaborate, sister in Christ Jesus?

      • Diane said

        Years!! You had to be exhausted :p

        I do want to be cautious without swinging to the other extreme though. My explanation about Brown’s book is below.

  2. Diane said

    I know Jesus cast out a deaf and dumb spirit, but now people are trying to call sin a ‘spirit’ that you can cast out, which is something that Jesus called people to repent of. People are casting the spirit of religion out of people (the sin of pride. all hard skeptics religious or not are blinded by pride), the spirit of Jezebel (the sin of seducing others to worship a false god, conniving, murderous etc. this has to be the most ridiculous exercise in man-made spiritual warfare yet. that sin has existed from the beginning of time and has absolutely nothing to do with gender). Those are at least 2 of the nonsensical weapons to the very serious topic of deliverance.

  3. Job,

    I do not know but I am concerned that you are placing too much emphasis on 1)seminaries and the distinction on the layity versus the clergy, also known as the doctrine of Nicolades which Jesus says he hates.

    2) I can only speak for Pentecostal. Well I have withdrawn my services to the charismatics because they have no discrenment. Look what you are saying is very dangerous. if you go to Africa or even deal with people out of masonry, will you not cast out demons.

    3) Many people who are tormented by devils will go to witchdoctors if the church cannot help them, you see that all the time in Africa with Anglican and Methodist ministers, protecting themselves by going to medicine men.

    3) Look at G Craige Lewis- he prays for all sort of demonised people via hip hop, people get free.

    4)We know that there were times when Jesus disciples could not cast oout devils, and Jesus said these kind only come out by prayer and fasting. So it must have been a struggle

    5) Casting out devils is a command and not an option.

    6) Liberals and their friends the dispensationalists were busy practising yoga and contemplative prayer while they were telling their congregation that the Holy Spirit is not operational today.

    7) you can cast out a demon by saying peace. Try this it works.

    8)Job do you ever think that you have become too influeanced by cessationist? The problem with them is that they bury the Holy Spirit and have close to no results in mystery.

    9) Job do you know that fifty per cent of Southern Baptists are Frremasons? so that is how materialism and deism has crept into the church.

    10 on the internet you get props if you say you do not belive in miracles and casting out devils.

    • Job said

      “I do not know but I am concerned that you are placing too much emphasis on seminaries and the distinction on the layity versus the clergy, also known as the doctrine of Nicolades which Jesus says he hates.”

      That is a curious charge to make against someone who regularly denounces what is being taught in evangelical seminaries. In this very post, I mentioned that Frank Hammond was a product of Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary, and I stated that I preferred even Biblically questionable spiritual warfare to the growing trend of merging evangelical Christianity with psychology, to the point where many of the leading seminaries and Bible colleges have full blown psychology departments.

      Further, the distinction between the laity and clergy is 100% biblical. The five fold office – Apostle, Prophet, Evangelist, Pastor, and Teacher – is the clergy. The people holding those offices are in positions of spiritual authority and are to lead and guide the church through humble service (not using their positions of authority to lord over people as the Gentiles do, or to use it to seek personal acclaim, riches, and other temporal benefits, but to serve). Claiming otherwise is a recipe for all manners of confusion in belief and practice. I will point out that attacking the doctrines of the clergy has always been a major point of Mormons, Jehovah’s Witnesses, and other cults. Now of course, I do acknowledge that the Biblical model of the clergy was replaced with the priesthood when the Roman state took control of Christianity within its borders, and that Protestants have basically retained the Roman model – including that where the pastor is a feudal lord as opposed to a servant – instead of trying to go back to the Biblical one. But make no mistake, the Biblical model did command not only ordained clergy, but also ordained deacons.

      Second, where did I ever deny the existence of demons or the need to cast them out? Were I to say such a thing, I would be speaking against what I know to be established both in scripture and by the virtue of my own personal testimony. Were I to do such a thing, it would be blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, the unforgivable sin, and my plight would be the same as the Pharisees who claimed that Jesus Christ was casting out devils because He was in league with the accuser and an agent of darkness, or that described by the writer of Hebrews to apostates. Maybe the people who get acclaim on the Internet for denying miracles and spiritual warfare have never before understood and professed these doctrines to be true and have never seen them in operation, and as such can deny them in ignorance without lying on the Holy Spirit’s works, but as being one who has known and personally experienced the truth when God healed my asthma and kidney disease and broke my pornography addiction that were I to ever claim that miracles and spiritual warfare are untrue, that I would become an unrecoverable apostate and be damned to the lake of fire for an eternity. I would become a proverb and a byword, and all I would be capable of doing is warning others to avoid my own eternal fate!

      Nay, good sister, my only interest is being true to the Bible and the doctrines therein. If it is not in the Bible, it is tradition, which makes them doctrines of man, works of the flesh. Those are the abominations of the Roman Catholic Church and of the Pharisees. I have no interest in partaking in or peddling Protestant or Pentecostal/charismatic forms of man – made tradition, for the counsel of God, the revelation to mankind that was completed in Jesus Christ and is available in the canon of scripture, is all that is necessary and sufficient. The problem has never been scripture. It has always been those who are not content with scripture and as a result either add to it or remove from it.

      And what I am speaking of above is clearly removing from scripture. Telling people not to go to the throne of grace when the torment of sin and the affliction of temptation is weighing on them? That is not scripture. Denying over half of the contents of the epistles so that you can blame your own nature, your own weakness, your own choices, and everything else that is supposed to show you how you need to lean ever more and hold ever tighter to the cross and the grace of Jesus Christ? That is taking from scripture. Also, talking about all of these “open doors” and how a Christian can acquire a demon with the same manner or ease that they can catch a cold, all of these things about counseling sessions where you continually bring to remembrance old sins and failings that the book of Hebrews states died with Christ on the cross and were buried with Him in your baptism, and have no part of the new life of the resurrection … that is adding to scripture. So are all of those “discernment techniques” that he teaches.

      “Many people who are tormented by devils will go to witchdoctors if the church cannot help them, you see that all the time in Africa with Anglican and Methodist ministers, protecting themselves by going to medicine men.”

      If people lack faith and obedience, that is not the fault of scripture. Our job is not to accommodate faithlessness and disobedience by removing from and adding to scripture. By doing so, we bring judgment upon our own heads, and make the people that we peddle these false doctrines to twice the sons of hell that they were before rather than helping them. These folks going to the medicine men are no different from the Jews that had their feet in both camps. They professed that Jesus Christ was the Messiah, but they continued in the works of the law in case He in fact was not the Messiah, so that on judgment day they would either be saved by the Messiah or by the law! These folks need to take their stand: Christ or the medicine men, and stop halting between two opinions. So long as they are allowed to halt between two opinions, they give a false witness and testimony on the Truth of Jesus Christ and cause people to stumble. It is because of their hypocrisy, which was no different from that of Peter when he stopped table fellowship with the Gentiles for fear of the accusations of the Jews, that syncretism and other evil abominations are openly practiced and accepted in Africa, and the theologians and seminarians of which you correctly warn me against are fashionably liberal, politically correct, and multicultural in calling it “contextualization.” However, we are not to replace one abomination with another, because they both stink in the eyes of a righteous Lord who demands holiness, obedience, and to be worshiped in spirit and in truth with the rule, the final authority, being His infallible word (where most evangelicals have abandoned infallibility and the vital doctrine of the verbal inspiration of scripture on which it is based for the more compromised, squishy, and acceptable to atheist and heathen “scholars” and philosophers term of “inerrancy”).

      Also, the “this kind comes out only by fasting and prayer” … two things. 1) This was BEFORE the indwelling Holy Spirit, the power and presence of God Himself, that took place in the followers of Jesus Christ after Christ’s death, resurrection, ascension, and glorification. 2) Fast and pray? Of course! But do so before you try to cast out the demon. After you have fasted and prayed, you should be able to “straitway command the demon to come out, and the demon should leave that very hour.” There is nothing in scripture that describes the knockdown drag out battles and open – ended deliverance sessions that Frank Hammond, Rebecca Brown, and others describe.

      Do you know why these demon battles are necessary? No Holy Spirit. You see, the Holy Spirit is God. God has complete, total rule and authority and mastery over the Holy Spirit. Casting out devils is not the work of man, but the work of the Holy Spirit. So, when a Christian casts out a demon the Bible’s way, it is not a work of the Christian, it is a work of the Holy Spirit. It is the Holy Spirit indwelling the Christian that tells the demon to leave. When that happens, the demon has no choice but to leave just as the demons had no choice to leave when Jesus Christ told them to. And we know that the Holy Spirit has the same power and authority over demons and everything else that Jesus Christ did, because Jesus Christ told His disciples in the gospel of John that He was sending the Holy Spirit as His replacement, in essence actually stating that He was coming back as the Holy Spirit. Read John chapters 14-16.

      And you know what? When you cast a demon out of a Christian, THE DEMON STAYS GONE. Why? Because of the indwelling Holy Spirit. When Jesus Christ stated that a demon going out of the man would return and bring seven more demons with him, that was an empty man, so there would be space for the demon to dwell. But a person with the Holy Spirit is not empty but FILLED. So when an evil spirit is cast out of a Christian, IT CANNOT COME BACK.

      Yet these deliverance ministers preach legalism, having people think that they can let more demons in through sin. Instead of admitting that their deliverance sessions were failures, that they never actually succeeded casting the demon out in the first place, or telling the people coming for deliverance that their real problem is that they are not born again and have no indwelling Holy Spirit and need to be saved, they fill them with guilt and self – condemnation, making them think that the failure of THE MINISTER is their own failure.

      And again, why do these deliverance ministers fail to cast out demons? Simple: because they are not operating in the power of the Holy Spirit. Many of them are not saved themselves. We know this, because it is a commonly reported thing that a great many of the folks who practice these deliverance doctrines steal from the church treasury, live in sexual immorality, preach devil’s doctrines (i.e. prosperity/Word of Faith) etc. One of the very people that I mentioned above, John Eckhardt, actually had Jeremiah Cummings come on his TV show and claim that we shouldn’t use the Bible to evangelize Muslims, that we only needed to use the Koran. And the woman that this Eckhardt is married to is not even his first wife. He holds several conferences a year where people have to spend small fortunes to attend, and invites people who have all sorts of strange doctrines to them, people that he is in league with. And this guy calls himself an apostle!

      Even those who are saved, because they are following these doctrines rather than faithfully applying Biblical example, like the rabbis of intertestamental times (meaning after their time in Babylon but before the time of Christ) and the Roman Catholics, they are using their own strength, their own power to battle against these demons. Look, even praying and asking God to drive the demons out would be far superior, because at least that is relying on the power of God. But these folks are clearly using their own strength, and demons do not have to respect the power and authority of a person acting in his own name and using his own strength, even if that person is a Christian. If it is the power of the Holy Spirit, that demon and all of his nested grouped buddies have to move. But if it is the power of a person, then the demon can stay and fight. That is why all of the counseling and spiritual deliverance sessions are necessary. That is why the calling the demon out by name over and over again to weaken the demon is necessary. (According to the document that I accessed, rabbis did the same.) That is why singing songs, reading scripture, etc. is necessary, and that is why praying (probably the only thing that actually works) is necessary. Yes, demons hate hearing gospel music, they hate the Name of Jesus, they hate truth and will eventually leave when confronted with those things. But the fact still remains that those things are only necessary in the absence of the presence and power of the Holy Spirit, because when confronted with the presence and power of the Holy Spirit, who is God, demons have no choice but to flee!

      So how ironic that you state that I am losing faith in the Holy Spirit when my doctrine on the Holy Spirit, my pneumatology, is more robust than yours! The Holy Spirit is no less than the Spirit of God, and before the Spirit of God demons have no choice but to run! But this is the rub: the Holy Spirit is SOVEREIGN. This Holy Spirit, He is not a manservant. He is not an ox, a donkey, a dog, or a trained pet that operates the way that man believes that He should according to man’s time, place, whims, and convictions. The Holy Spirit does not serve us. We serve the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit does not glorify us. The Holy Spirit glorifies God the Father and God the Son. (Again, oneness pentecostal cultics have no concept of these doctrines, yet a great many of them use Frank Hammond’s techniques to cast out demons.)

      So in all legitimate spiritual warfare, all legitimate casting out of devils, is the work of the sovereign Holy Spirit. But instead of talking about the sovereign Holy Spirit, many of these folks peddling deliverance ministry doctrines would rather talk about ANGELS. Why? Because they do not want to deal with a sovereign God. Why? Because they do not want to submit to Him. Instead of letting God be God, they claim that God has given man all of this power and authority, all of this dominion, to rule in God’s place. These folks don’t want to be like Jesus Christ, who despite being God emptied Himself, made Himself of such low estate, and did the Will of the Father. They do not want to be like the Holy Spirit, who does the Will of both the Son and the Father. No, they want to be like ADAM. They want to be like SATAN who said “I can be like the Most High.” (I reject the opinion of modern learned seminarians, who claim that the verses describing Satan in Isaiah and Ezekiel were merely directed towards the king of Tyre using stereotypical speech … the king of Tyre was never in the Garden of God, nor at any time was he God’s cherub.)

      So gentle Christian woman, all legitimate Christian activity is to the worship and glorification of God. Therefore, it must be done according to God’s sovereignty, and it must be God obedient and God honoring, which means that it must conform to scripture. All other activity is of the flesh. It is man – pleasing, God dishonoring and rebellious. It is that which is described and forbidden in 1 Corinthians 15 as well as in the latter chapters of Ephesians. Spiritual warfare and deliverance is no different. For it is a small thing to drive off a demon. What is a demon but a creature, something created by God? And as man is the only thing of creation that is created in God’s own image, then by nature he will have power and authority over the rest of creation, including angels. Did not God give Adam dominion over creation before the fall? That included angels. And do you not know that you will judge angels? So indeed, casting out demons is but a small thing. Submitting yourself to God’s sovereignty and letting His grace and His Spirit make a marvelous work in you, to transform your humble creation tainted by original sin into something beautiful and conform it into the image of His own glorified and incorruptible Son, now THAT is a great thing indeed, and THAT is what we need to tell to our brothers and sisters in the bondage of syncretism in Africa (as well as Asia and Latin America) as well as those in bondage to New Age psychology nonsense and freemasonry in America and the west. Minoring in the majors, that is the problem. The majors are the doctrines of grace and learning how to walk in them. A person who learns to major in the doctrines of grace can simply pray in faith for God to drive off a demon, and believe according to scripture that everything that we ask in the Name of Jesus Christ (again, see John 14!) shall be done.

  4. Diane said

    Hello Dawkins or Stuffgirlslike?

    This is a very serious topic and one that has baffled many Christians. You have groups deny the validity in casting out demons, then the opposite extreme where everything is a demon and needs casting out, and then groups in between the two extremes.

    The verse you referenced about prayer and fasting I believe is at the core of why we are not addressing this particular command of Christ. There is a marked difference in my prayers for others when I myself am prayerful, and when I’m not as prayerful.

  5. Diane said

    Also, I know you were addressing Job in your comment, but I hope you don’t mind me commenting on a couple of your points.

    2)To me, this is very sad outcome to a denomination that seemed to be a bridge between hard core Pentacostals and non-Pentacostals.

    6)???. Is it your opinion that people who believe in the rapture are now practicing yoga and contemplative prayer? I missed the point you were trying to make, could you clarify?

  6. dawkinswatch said

    Sorry Diane, My point was, in seminaries, the ministers of the big time dispesational denominations were being introduced to Eastern Mystery. The Emerging church practises have long been standard affairs in seminaries.

    So we had the rejection of the Holy Spirit accompanied by New Age infiltration of seminaries

  7. dawkinswatch said

    Diane Try to find someone called John Todd, His tapes are on youtube , he testifies that when he was In the World Druid Council, they were paying to start charismatic churces and he names the leaders of that movement.

  8. Diane said

    This is new to me, as it seems maybe liberal seminaries would be into yoga, could you give the names of these seminaries?
    Do you know if these seminaries are known for being conservative or liberal?

    Ok… Im off to check out youtube

    Thanks

    • Job said

      Diane:

      He is right about liberal seminaries doing yoga and other eastern religion stuff. One of them in particular would be Union Theological Seminary, but it is far from the only one. Also, it is not just the liberal seminaries anymore. Moderate seminaries are also getting into it, which means that conservative seminaries will be doing it 10-20 years from now. Also, a lot of these practices are getting into the evangelical church under the field of “spiritual development”, which is a course taught at many leading conservative and evangelical and even some fundamentalist seminaries. The ideas of people like George Foster, Dallas Willard, etc. are promoted there. Dallas Willard in particular is a prominent theologian and pastor in the Southern Baptist Convention and has been for some time. The people at http://sliceoflaodicea.com and http://apprising.org have been talking about it for years. In a lot of even the moderate and conservative evangelical seminaries, they teach yoga practice without actually calling it yoga. If you call it yoga, then folks won’t do it. But if you teach the same thing without calling it yoga or by the other names that evangelicals know to avoid, then folks are a lot more open to it.

      But the yoga and other mystical/meditative stuff isn’t the real problem, at least not in western evangelical Christianity. The real problem is the blending of evangelical Christianity and psychology. They started dabbling into psychology to strengthen their family/marital counseling and also their work with people that have addictions and things like that, but now it has gotten to the point where more and more seminaries are actually offering degrees in psychology, where the counseling curriculum is 80% psychology and the 20% Bible content is only used to support the 80% psychology, and it is becoming increasingly common for pastors to have degrees in both theology or divinity and either psychology or a counseling degree that is mostly psychology. Some people planning to go into ministry actually major in psychology for their undergraduate preparation and then get their master’s degree in divinity or theology.

      I was really upset when one of my favorite televangelists – I won’t give his name – teamed up with a psychologist to produce his latest book. I was like “why why why is yet another Bible believing Christian preacher going to the lies of secular humanism? If the persecuted saints of the early church and of the Reformation didn’t need psychology, why do we wealthy educated western Christians need it today?” Ah well … we have to watch, pray, and intercede for the church that they would be given the power and wisdom to resist these doctrines of devils, whether eastern mysticism or western psychology. If you want spiritual warfare, that is it

  9. Diane said

    Job,
    I grew up in an atheistic home and was taught that supernatural phenomenon was just a figment of our imagination. Before giving my life to the Lord, a few things happened to me that convinced me that God was real and I wanted Him in my life.
    One of the incidents that was a major turning point before becoming saved, was a very sincere prayer to God that if He was real then the things I was seeing when I woke up at night, had to stop.

    Before coming to Christ, I didn’t know what it meant to have peaceful sleep. My sleep was always filled with nightmares.

    Also prior to my salvation, a loving but careless Christian family exposed me to the ouija board, however it did not work on me, but having it in my home increased the problems I was having at night to actually seeing a dark figure of a man or a cloud. A Jehovah Witness warned me to get that thing out of my house, which I promptly did. Though I was relieved it was gone, the manifestations at night continued. One night I woke up to see a black cloud in the corner of the room, I spoke to it and said “you are just a figment of my imagination, I’m tired and I’m going back to sleep”. At that moment a black snake came out of the cloud. I said “you’re not real so goodnight”. When it actually touched me, I ran to turn on the lights and it was gone.
    My mother hearing the screaming, came to me and said she had had a similar dream the other night, my response to her was ” there was a snake in this room, there was evil in this room, this was not a dream, this is real”. I got down on my knees and prayed to God, and that night was the first night that I had ever experienced a peaceful sleep. Those nightmares INSTANTLY came to a halt and never returned. In the excitement of my newfound peace and thankfulness to God, I encouraged my Mom to get rid of her Steven King books and pray.

    Six months later, I surrendered my life to Jesus Christ. I preached to practically everything that moved and was seeing a lot of answers to prayer and it was during this time that I started to desire to help those who were demonically possessed.

    I saw that the disciples had difficulties so I thought I would read up on the topic and ran into Rebecca Brown’s book ‘Set The Captives Free’. When reading her book, I didn’t sense the presence of the Holy Spirit but keenly sensed the presence of evil. I believe this was happening because she goes into a lot of details of her testimony, details that brought a heavy presence. I definitely don’t recommend this book. Maybe she has other books that have been more helpful.

    Jesus’ Words to fast and pray is where I believe myself and others fall short.

  10. Remnant said

    Yes, it’s true: FREUD was a cocaine addict and sex pervert, as well as an athetist. All his pathetic theories revolved around his own obsession with sex. He finally died of cancer at the end of his wasteed and sinful life.

  11. Remnant said

    Truly Born-again Christians cannot be possessed.

    Show me even one instance in the HOLY BIBLE where the disciples or Jesus Christ Himself ever once had to due a deliverance on a BORN AGAIN & SAVED HOLY SPIRIT FILLED BELIEVER? The Legion of demons was cast out of the man with the Legion before he became born again. THEN he was clothed and in his right mind and professed Christ. Mary Magdalene had 7 devils cast out of her BEFORE she got saved. Nowhere did Paul or Peter or Jesus have to concern themselves with casting devils out of an already saved person/Believer! The Holy Ghost will not reside within the same body as a devil! Show me one instance in either the OT or NT where the two CO-EXISTED. You will not find such an example unless you create it with your imagination.

  12. Remnant said

    Job, thank you for your honest testimony here! I too wound up in the same “warfare” trap, as a new Believer! And found that none of it worked, life never got any better. And when the author of Bondage Breaker wrote that a demon supposedly came up to him in the bathroom one morning and bit him in the hand, this pathetic teaching exposed itself to me as a bunch of reverse-witchcraft (a person ends up spouting things which closely mirror incantations!) Eventually it began to dawn on me what was rrrrrreally happening as a result of all this “spiritual warfare” crap: IT TAKES ONE’S FOCUS OFF OF JESUS CHRIST. That is what it is DESIGNED to do!! All your focus is suddenly on demons!

    When i realized that, i tossed out all the spiritual warfare books and stopped rebuking every possible demon when bad things happened, and basically stopped chasing my tail. Yes, let us all get back to Christianity 101: CHRIST and the CROSS. To the WORD and to the testimony.

  13. Remnant said

    P.S. Nowhere even in OT did the Holy Spirit and an evil spirit ever possess the same person at the same time. Learn from King Saul: it was after the Holy Spirit left him that an evil spirit came and tormented him. Learn from Elijah: he was filled with the Holy Spirit; he did not have to be delivered from any evil spirits tormenting him. Same with Paul, Peter, James, John, Barnabas, and multittudes of new believers added to the church DAILY. Did they spend their time in deliverance ministries with new BELIEVERS? NO. Their focus remained on preaching Christ.

    Even after King David sinned (lust, adultery, murder) he did NOT become “possessed” with demons which had to supposedly be “cast out”. The Holy Spirit remained with him.

  14. David L. Williams said

    The devil and his cohorts have only been slowly revealed. As little as was mentioned in the OT, still the religious leaders of Jesus’ days knew much about them, as shown in the NT. And we need to rethink using the word, “Possessed,” and call it, “demonized.” Even the demoniac with a legion of demons was able to make his way to Jesus, so he was obviously not possessed in the sense of the word.

    Our generation also has its expanded revelation of the devil and his demons, and this knowledge goes right along with the Word, if one cares to see it. The problem is, few care to search out this truth and instead hang on to men’s traditions and remain blind. Many of us have seen obviously Spirit filled Christians, and have helped deliver them. No, I am not talking about those “show ministries” here. I’m talking about what goes on quietly behind the scenes in many churches. (But not enough churches.)

    I have been in on many deliverances, and all of them were for Spirit filled Christians who had long ongoing problems. Anyone with any sense observing these would never again say a Christian cannot have a demon. Again, I offer my free download book on this subject to any who genuinely want to search this out. It can be requested at: DavWms777@AOL.com

  15. Diane said

    Thanks David for sharing here. I have only experienced those who have either written in such a way that was very off balanced with obsessive focus on binding and loosing, or the equally off balanced and dogmatic attitude that “these signs will follow those who believe….” do not apply to us today.

    I’ve heard of testimonies of demons being cast out with child like faith, and others that required many days of prayer and fasting. I certainly appreciate your input.

  16. Remnant said

    Dave, you would first have to prove to me those “Spirit-filled Christians” were truly HOLY Spirit filled, and not just PROFESSING churchgoers. There are plenty of those. And they are always “nice” people who talk the talk and look and sound “holy”. I do not believe personal experiences, I believe what I read in the Word of God.

    Why do you say that a possessed person could not have made it to Jesus? Where is this law written? Mark 5 clearly states that the man had been “possessed”. The word is used repeatedly.
    The best comparison i have ever heard on possession is that it is like drunkenness: there are varying degrees of inebriation; some are so controlled by alcohol to the point of fall down drunk, some may be intoxicated only enough for the speach to be slightly slurred, and some may be chronic whinos with liver disease and generalized daily stupor. It is all about how controlled by the unclean spirit the man was at the time. I’m sure Jesus did not come to the country of Geresenes by accident; it was God’s will to deliver him who had been in torment for so long and was READY to fall down before Him and worship Him and READY to be delivered.

    I do not “hang on to men’s traditions” or believe in “expanded revelation” which add to the Word of God (a practice forbidden in Revelations). I believe in the Word of God–which is pure and perfect, and never changes.

    • Patty said

      Remnant,
      “I do not believe personal experiences, I believe what I read in the Word of God.”
      I have never posted on this blog, but this statement caught my eye. I feel very bad for someone who does not believe in personal experiences. No one can take your experiences with God away from you, and I pray you have an experience some day. I doubt you will, since you dont believe in them.

      “The best comparison i have ever heard on possession is that it is like drunkenness: there are varying degrees of inebriation; some are so controlled by alcohol to the point of fall down drunk, some may be intoxicated only enough for the speach to be slightly slurred, and some may be chronic whinos with liver disease and generalized daily stupor.”

      Where did you get this comparison of possession? Is it in the Word of God?
      You said you only believe what is in the Word of God.
      I have seen Christians who knew they were possessed, and they never looked like a drunk person. They sought deliverance.

      • Remnant said

        I believe in “experiences” only insofar as they line up with the Word of God. If they contradict it then they are NOT to be believed. How is this so hard to understand? If you believe every “experience” story every person tells you then you leave yourself open to grand deception. Where does your standard of measurement or discernment lie, if not in the scriptures? You see, this is why there is so little discernment in the churches today, because they do not use the Word as their absolute standard. And so you have wicked people like the BTK Killer allowed to become a deacon on the church board of a Lutheran church in Kansas–all the while warming the church pew on Sundays while torturing and murdering people the rest of the time. Pathetic.

        As to my statement about drunkeness, it was an analogy (on how to understand degrees of demonic control over one’s faculties). You have taken it and twisted it into an “experience”. The only time it would apply in that manner is when a drunken person is indeed himself possessed. Clearly a person of understanding can see that i was NOT saying that possessed people ARE drunk or LOOK drunk, although there may be some that do start out or become so. THE FOCUS OF THE DISCUSSION AT HAND WAS POSSESSION AND THE ERROR OF USING **EXPERIENCES* TO DETERMINE ONE’S THEOLOGY, RATHER THAN THE RULE OF SCRIPTURE. DO NOT TWIST AN ANALOGY INTO AN **EXPERIENCE**; THEY ARE NOT EVEN REMOTELY THE SAME.

  17. Diane said

    Remnant,
    can you explain how a person can be saved and yet Satan can speak through them?

    Peter wasn’t possessed but Jesus didn’t rebuke and tell Peter to repent, he rebuked and commanded the devil to “get behind Me”.

    That particular situation certainly doesn’t cover the depths of how far a person can go, but it clearly shows that it does happen, and the possible depths of depravity under that influence can be frightening to say the least.

    • Remnant said

      Diane, there is no reason for us to think that satan was bodily in-dwelling or possessing Peter during that incident. Jesus turned to Peter and rebuked him because the advice from Peter was contrary to God’s plan and whatever is contrary to God’s plan is in league with darkness/satan. I believe Jesus was speaking figuratively hear to point out of Peter that his advice/thinking was not of God but was aligned with the Enemy. The Enemy may even have been standing near, whispering to Peter’s mind and listening, but there is no reason to think Peter had suddenly become possessed. The text does not give us enough reason to assume that, and nowhere is Peter said to have been in need of having anything cast out later.

      Christians say nasty or selfish or well-meaning things regularly to family and others, that doesnt mean they are all possessed, it means they just need to repent!

  18. David L. Williams said

    Remnant, come. Let us reason together. This is not about who knows the Bible best. It is about all of us learning more than the obvious statements in the Bible. Daniel was given revelation about the end of days, yet the angel told him to seal it up, so it could not be understood til its time to be revealed. This is one place of many we are shown to let the “Spirit of Revelation,” Jesus, bring us truth needed in our day. He sent the Holy Spirit to bring all truth. Are we open to see more truth, or are we locked in to what we think is all the truth?

    The Pharisees knew the Torah down to the last jot and tittle. Yet they were not open to see the truth revealed before their eyes as Jesus revealed Himself before them. They looked for specific statements in the Bible to prove everything, not knowing to look at the spiritual view, as well. So Jesus spoke to them in parables, (which reveal the spiritual meanings) and they were unable to understand them. Solomon wrote that it is for a king to search out the deep things of God, so there must be more to learn than the letter of the Law.

    All of us bring our life experiences into our understanding of the Bible. Experiences are the foundation of our knowledge. Those foundations must be renewed by the renewing of our mind. Not all of us allow this completely. For example, you read into my post above that I said a “possessed man” cannot make it to Jesus. Please reread that and see I did not say that.

    If you misread what I wrote, then is it possible you can misread the intent of the Word, as well? Look at all the different ways people interpret the Bible, and you can see someone has to be wrong. Are you open to being found wrong or will you, like the Pharisees, insist you have it all together with no possible error?

    You demanded I show you proof, a statement in the Bible that says demons can inhabit Christians. May I please turn this on you, and demand you show me a Scripture showing otherwise? Diane showed you a verse about Jesus speaking to Peter, but addressing him as satan. Is that not informative? How about Paul, writing to people whom he knew were saved brethren (2Cor 11:3-4) warning them about receiving another spirit, brot to them by a false prophet. This spirit, in addition to the Spirit they had received from Jesus.

    How about when Jesus and His disciples were refused entrance into a town? (Luke 9:55…note, this verse is not in all translations.) Some of His disciples wanted to call fire down on that town. But Jesus rebuked them saying, ” You know not what manner of spirit you are of.” Did not Jesus say over and over there is wickedness in every man’s heart? Just what did that mean? Wouldn’t the word, “every” man’s heart include the disciples? Wouldn’t that include you and me?

    The Bible is not a rule book to follow to the letter to gain Heaven. That would be working for our salvation. The Bible is full of mysteries to be revealed so we can see God’s heart toward man and respond to His love for us.

    Bible translations have been changed hundreds of times over the years, as scholars see the earlier ones did not convey the original intent in places. Likewise, the word, “Possessed” has been changed to “demonized,” in some. They realized that word was too strong, implying people were completely controlled by demons. My comment above takes that into consideration, that the demoniac was still able to make his way to Jesus, in spite of the demons within him.

    Like I said, I have been in on many deliverance sessions, and none of the victims were completely controlled by the demons within them. They knew they had an ongoing problem, and came to us for ministry. Most of them were quite surprised when we nailed the demon in them, and cast it out. We never went into a session aiming at casting a demon out. It is that they manifested in the presence of the Holy Spirit in our prayer sessions, and the demons revealed their presence, and then we cast them out. None of them acted anything like the demoniac in the Bible. The sessions were always calm and under the control of the Holy Spirit.

    So you can continue demanding I show you a specific verse in the Bible confirming what I say, or you can pray to God to show you truth, even truth you don’t want to know. DavWms

  19. Diane said

    Remnant,

    I clearly stated “Peter wasn’t possessed”. My point is that a Christian CAN come under demonic influence, and if the Christian remains in that condition, they may possibly need the type of ministry that Christ demonstrated above.

    Jesus did not rebuke Peter, but spoke directly to Satan.

    There are too many Christians that have given their testimony of being delivered after Christians have prayed over them for hours.

    • Job said

      Diane:

      “There are too many Christians that have given their testimony of being delivered after Christians have prayed over them for hours.”

      I am not one of those Christians, for denying that testimony would be – in my opinion – blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. The most that I have done is question whether I was actually regenerated – that actually a saved born again Christian – at the time that I was physically and spiritually healed and delivered. You know, whether I was still unsaved and not yet born again at the time of my deliverance. But I have never denied having demons cast out of me in 2006, and I never will, for I know that if I do, I will be as the rich man in great torment watching the beggar Lazarus and the other saints in heaven for eternity for the unpardonable sin of denying the work of the Holy Spirit within me.

    • Diane said

      Yes, I would have to agree with you that when a person is truly regenerated is definitely a major factor to be considered, but what of a person that is truly born again and has backslidden to a point of demonic oppression?

      I’ve have witnessed Christians fall into sin in such a way that they start hearing voices. So, in some of these cases repentance and deliverance may be needed.

      • Job said

        Diane:

        “Yes, I would have to agree with you that when a person is truly regenerated is definitely a major factor to be considered, but what of a person that is truly born again and has backslidden to a point of demonic oppression?”

        I believe that it is possible. However, regrettably, I have no scriptures with which to justify my belief. Therefore, I must admit that had I been reared in a Christian tradition other than Pentecostalism, I may well also have the position that it is impossible for a Christian to be oppressed by a demon. It really is difficult to assert this doctrine in the absence of explicit scripture; that is a real problem. If I am going to oppose the cessationists who claim that certain Holy Spirit gifts and offices are not present in the church because of the conspicuous lack of scriptures that say so, I am going to have to be consistent and apply that same standard to other areas, including spiritual warfare and deliverance, also. Sola scriptura is indeed sola scriptura. Now this is not to say that I deny the experiences of many Christians that have practiced spiritual deliverance, but rather I wish to place their experiences and practice within the context of Biblical revelation than endorse Pentecostals’ creating their own competing tradition alongside the Roman and Orthodox Catholics. (Please do not mistake me for saying that having doctrines of spiritual deliverance is anything akin to being Catholic, that is not what I am saying at all.)

        That is why I have been looking for someone who treats the subject of casting out demons from Christians in a more theological way, whether that theology is systematic or biblical. (I prefer biblical theology, but a systematic theology approach would do.) If anyone is a candidate for having done such a thing, it is Derek Prince, who among other things produced the “systematic theology – lite” work Foundational Truths for Christian Living.

        • Remnant said

          I WANT TO MAKE IT CLEAR (SIGH) THAT I HAVE NEVER SAID THAT CHRISTIANS CANNOT BE **OPPRESSED** BY DEMONS. DEMONIC **OPPRESSION** AND DEMONIC **POSSESSION** ARE TWO DIFFERENT THINGS; YOU **CAN** BE **OPPRESSED** EVEN IF YOU ARE A CHRISTIAN. OPPRESSION OFTEN TAKES THE FORM OF DEPRESSION, FALSE OR OBSESSIVE GUILT, MORBID, UNRELENTING GRIEF, OPPRESSIVE OR BLASPHEMOUS THOUGHTS, SUICIDAL THOUGHTS, SPIRITUAL HEAVINESS,AND YES, POSSIBLY EVEN VOICES. AND OTHER WAYS. PLEASE LET US BE CLEAR ON WHERE I STAND:

          1. CHRISTIANS **CAN** BE **OPPRESSED**
          2. HOLY-SPIRIT FILLED CHRISTIANS **CANNOT** BE **POSSESSED**
          3. POSSESSION AND OPPRESSION ARE NOT THE SAME THING
          4. AN UNSAVED PERSON CAN EXPERIENCE BOTH, A CHRISTIAN CAN ONLY SUFFER THE LATTER.

          THIS IS MY STANCE, IN CASE ANYONE HERE STILL IS TOTALLY MISUNDERSTANDING ME. IT JUST SEEMS TO ME THAT SOME ARE STILL MIXING THE TWO UP OR NOT UNDERSTANDING THE DIFF. THAT’ ALL.

      • Diane said

        I think I might have an old Derek Prince workbook in the garage. I might try to dig it out this summer after school let’s out.

        • Job said

          Diane:

          Well, I think that I have found something. It is on “The Bible Answer Man” Hank Hanegraf’s page, which means that their views on the topic are not mine and that it contains many distortions and errors, but it does contain some authors that have written on the topic as well as their books.

          http://www.equip.org/articles/deliverance-ministry-in-historical-perspective

          This blurb in particular is interesting:

          “A pointedly noncharismatic approach arose in the circles around Dallas Theological Seminary and Moody Bible College and Institute. Authors of well-known books include Mark Bubeck (The Adversary, 1975), Merrill Unger (What Demons Can Do to Saints, 1977), and C. Fred Dickason (Demon Possession and the Christian, 1987). This variety has a more restrained feel, operating more through private pastoral counseling and prayer than via extraordinary encounters with demons. They articulate their theology more clearly than the charismatics, in a style that makes heavy use of biblical proof texts. Bubeck is particularly well-known for his “warfare praying” formulas to keep would-be demonic invaders at bay.” So, I will investigate some of the books listed by this fellow, who incidentally lies by claiming that deliverance ministries didn’t start until the 1960s!

  20. David L. Williams said

    I would like to say that great changes came over the lives of all those we helped in their deliverance. But in a church of thousands, we hardly ever came in contact with them again, and many were from other churches, as well. The trouble was, we did not know then there should be follow up help. Very little of what went on in those back rooms was ever taught from the pulpit. And a new pastor changed the scene, and this deliverance died out before we could learn more.

    So I can only tell of my own experience, having been delivered of demons myself. I know for a fact it changed my life, and many who know me told me so. It is too long a story to tell here, and that is why I keep reminding that I wrote a book that does tell of these things. And I show it is in the Bible, from Genesis on. But it is not visible to people not willing to accept the possibility of demons being in them. Just as the truth was not evident to the Scribes and Pharisees of Jesus’ days, even tho it was before their eyes. DavWms

    • Job said

      David Williams:

      Well, there are two tracks here. On one hand, there does not seem to be scripture that states or provides an example of a Christian being demonized. On the other hand, I am not aware of any scripture that precludes the possibility of a Christian from being demonized. I only state that those who claim that it is possible have more evidence on their side than do those who claim that it is not possible. People who claim that it is not possible have primarily logic on their side: that no evil spirit can coexist with the presence of the Holy Spirit. But it is logic, not scripture. However, I must admit that it is a powerful piece of logic indeed, and had I not been reared in the Pentecostal tradition, I would claim that logic as my own. (Of course, my own current Reformed tradition would have me assert that my Pentecostal rearing was part of God’s providence, and no mere chance or accident of my background.) I will also say that non – Pentecostal denominations, especially Baptists, used to deal with spiritual warfare and deliverance a lot more so than they do now. It is just that in the recent decades evangelical Christianity has gotten less into spiritual deliverance and more into psychology.

  21. David L. Williams said

    Yes, Job, I agree that we are not told all we want to know about deliverance in the Bible. And I see both sides of the argument, having been on both sides myself. In these days that much is being made over “experience” over what the Bible says, the battle becomes that much harder.

    I agree that many are seeking experiences more than they are seeking the Lord. And perhaps those who see this and are fighting it, have gone past center and miss the mark. It’s like a pendulum that swings too far to one side, then it swings past center too far to the other side. In this, like the old saying, they throw out the baby with the bathwater.

    In any case, we all have experiences and use them to gain wisdom about possible future experiences we might have. That includes our serving the Lord, for He puts us in many of those experiences to teach us. When I mentioned above that I went thru deliverances, no one cast demons from me. God put me in trials that showed me my evil traits, and one at a time, demons left me when I saw and confessed them before Him and another human. One time, I even felt two of them burst thru my lower chest in a hurry to leave. As I saw my evil traits, I also knew the name of the demon involved and rebuked it.

    That took a period of 3-1/2 years of both the best and worst time of my life. I knew that I knew that Jesus was right with me thru those trials. He made sure of that, so I would not turn and run, for the trials were very emotionally painful to go thru.

    In all this, we need to consider the words in two verses. Jesus prayed for forgiveness while He was on the cross, for those who were crucifying Him “knew not what they were doing.” There is a revelation there. The other verse is in Rev 19:7, where we are told the Bride will prepare herself. I take that to mean She will find a way to get rid of her spots and wrinkles. There is also revelation there.

    • Job said

      David Williams:

      Well, I can find fault with neither your doctrine or your experience. It would also be very difficult to simply claim that you were unsaved during your 3 1/2 year period of deliverance.

      God put me in trials that showed me my evil traits, and one at a time, demons left me when I saw and confessed them before Him and another human. One time, I even felt two of them burst thru my lower chest in a hurry to leave. As I saw my evil traits, I also knew the name of the demon involved and rebuked it.

      Well now, that is a testimony! How can I possibly argue with that?

      • David L. Williams said

        LOL, let’s be sure we all know I am not a pastor. Maybe here, I am being confused with Rev. Patrick Williams. I am a layman, no more, gifted in the prophetic. God had me write letters to all the pastors of my church, telling them what He was showing me that was going on behind the scenes there.

        That brot much persecution, and I thot it was all about them, not me. But as time went on, I saw God was economical in dealing with me at the same time, as my feelings during those times showed me my own evil. It was an awesome experience. VERY painful!

        Having found i had demons in me without knowing it caused me to forgive the pastors from my heart, for I saw they knew not what they were doing in crucifying me, too.

        Jesus said we would experience what He had gone thru, for if they hated Him, they will hate us, too. Below is the conclusion on this subject in a chapter in my book. To understand it, know that they interfered with the relationship between a lady in the church and me. And also, about a young man I had taken into my home to disciple. He fell in love with a Jezebel who hated me.

        [I had paid little attention to Jesus’ words that we would experience what he experienced on this earth. Now I saw that; I had come for my own, and she had rejected me because of religious leaders; I had been betrayed by my disciple for a price. I had been put on trial on lies; I was found guilty of those lies; My ministry was cut off; I had been spiritually crucified. Sadly, even after I had forgiven him, the young man went out and hung himself.] DavWms

  22. Remnant said

    Diane, keep in mind OPPRESSION and POSSESSION are two different things. You can be oppressed but not possessed.

    Also it is written, Resist the devil and he will flee from you. YOU!! Clearly, here, Christians CAN EXPECT some demonic OPPRESSION. But all he/she has to do is RESIST the devil and keep his/her mind stayed on CHRIST.

    • lesha said

      And ye shall know the truth and the truth shall make you free. “Oppression and possession are two different things.
      You can be oppressed but no possessed.” Truth.

      Sadly the next part is a lie. ” Also it is written, Resist the devil and he will flee from you. YOU!! Clearly, here, Christians CAN EXPECT some demonic OPPRESSION. But all he/she has to do is RESIST the devil and keep his/her mind stayed on CHRIST.” This is a lie. A lie that seems so much like the truth, becasue it contains elements of truth, but it is still a lie.

      God’s written truth is ” SUBMIT YOURSELVES TO GOD. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.” James 4 vs. 7

      Let us all note God’s order. Submit yourself to God, first. Submit – humble yourself as a creature his Creator.
      Obey God always. Obey God only. Then resist the devil, and he will flee, not merely because you resist him, but because you are submitted to God. And it is God through His Holy Spirit that empowers us to resist the devil. Consider too that obedience to God is the way of resisting the devil.

      This is clearly seen in the record of the temptation of Jesus Christ by the devil. How much more then do mortal men need to submit overselves and obey God?

      God bless. Please note that I am NOT calling you a liar.
      I am just exposing this lie that has kept God’s people busy focusing on resisting the creature (the devil) instead of submitting themselves to the Creator.

      • Remnant said

        Lesha, your use of the word “lie” is a little strong, dont you think? I’m glad you clarified that you are not calling ME a liar, but you actually did worse by calling GOD a liar, as it is HIS Word i was quoting. OUCH.
        Just because I did not quote the next verse in the Bible after that does not make the first verse (or even me) a liar. You ARE accurate in saying we are to submit ourselves to God, yes, but resisting the devil is PART of submitting to God, for when we resist the devil we resist sin and temptations. The use of the term “lie” in this instance is just too strong is all.

  23. Remnant said

    David, I never said this was some kind of competition as to “who knows the bible best”. You have now falsely accused me. What i am trying to tell you people is that if you base your theology on Experience as the final authority rather than on the HOLY BIBLE as the final authority, you really set yourself up for all sort of follery, nonsense, and deception. I dont see how any true, Godly, BIble-believing Holy-Spirit filled person could argue with that. To do so is rebellion, no matter how convincing your “experience”; God’s Word is always final authority on all spiritual matters.

    Also, I NEVER said that there are NOT cases in which spiritual deliverance is appopriate, i only stated that True HOLY GHOST FILLED CHRISTIANS cannot be possessed (and this is NOT the same as being OPPRESSED: Christians CAN be oppressed). I also shun the overemphasis and preoccupation with “spiritual warfare” because it distracts a person from CHRIST. It is also written, “Thou wilt keep him in perfect peace, whose mind is stayed on thee: because he trusteth in thee. “–Is. 26:3

  24. Remnant said

    David, You are now playing word games with me in some of your replies and splitting hairs, suggesting there is a difference, for example in “possessed” vz “demonized” and in suggesting to me that your statement that the demoniac came to Jesus is not the same as saying the man who came to him was “possessed”. The scripture about the demoniac clearly states repeatedly that he was POSSESSED, as I pointed out earlier. As for Jesus rebuking Peter as Satan, I once again say to you that he was not possessed, as was the Son of Perdition, but was rebuked by the Lord for advocating for satan’s ends. Jesus addressed him as Satan in order to communicate to him from where his thoughts originated. He did not cast anything out of Peter. Later, Peter was “sifted as wheat” by Satan; Peter was given over to be tried and tested, and would later convert to Christ, according to Jesus. (How many “Christians” think they are converted!!)

    And now this whole topic has gone on long enough, intending no doubt to get a person’s focus more and more off Christ and onto silly little semantic games which lead no where. This is the last i will comment on this subject as it is a waste of time when people place more value on their opinions and experiences than on what scripture has to say. It would almost be easier to have this duscussion over the phone or Skype than to go back n forth over misunderstandings.
    I would suggest anyone interested would check out http://www.illbehonest.com and listen to what Paul Washer has to say on true conversion and salvation. In any case, God bless and take care.

  25. David L. Williams said

    Remnant, I did not accuse you of competing about who knows the Bible best. I mentioned that to make sure you knew where I stand. I have already made my points on each of the things you mention. If you are still unable to see I do not base my opinions on experiences only, I cannot see reason to continue this discussion between us. My Maker knows I study the Bible to show myself approved unto God. DavWms

  26. David L. Williams said

    Job, I’m glad you discerned Hanegraf. Even so, I probably read those books you mentioned back when I saw God was aiming me at deliverance. I was interested in any info I could find on it. It was a good starting place, along with actually participating in deliverance.

    I can look back on my life and see that God was preparing me for it. For years, I was employed by a boss that demanded we know the “why” of everything we did in his shop. It was high pressure to learn more than we needed to know to do our jobs. “Why” became paramount in my thinking. When God came solidly into my life, I questioned everything, wanting to know the why of it all. He made sure i quit asking Him why, and to just obey Him. Tough lesson for me.

    Once that was well settled, He began showing me the “whys.” This included the why of people, even Christians, have demons without knowing it. Life has never been the same, since. DavWms

  27. David L. Williams said

    Patty made some good points in her post above. We are all concious of the recent “experience” revivals, where anything and everything is accepted as from God. But we must also know that walking with God is filled with experiences. This means we must discern accurately which is from Him and which is not, so we are not deceived. But to throw out all experiences as bad is to deny that the Lord will pour out His Spirit on all flesh. That would be an experience, wouldn’t it?

    When we were told about the Holy Spirit coming to bring all truth, wouldn’t that be an experience? When Jesus said we would suffer what He suffered, that too would be experiences. We could write hundreds of things dealing with the things of God, that we could experience and gain from.

    But nothing compares with what Patty pointed out. That when we get saved, we begin having experiences with God. DavWms

  28. The Prodigal Son said

    Hello Job & Everyone,

    Job, I see you are making great progress in your search for that faith once delivered… perhaps you wont ignore me any longer when I present you with my Orthodox Christian views, and ask of you the tough questions ?

    Now all of this comes back to your enthusiastic endorsement of ‘sola scriptura’, (which I must admit you practice better than most)… However one key area in which you are glaringly errant is your identification of WHO exactly constitutes ‘Israel’ PRESENTLY… because my Bible is clear that – to God Himself – Israel designates ALL THOSE WHO FOLLOW HIS WILL – INCLUDING those you have incorrectly labelled ‘Gentiles’ and ‘Jews’ !

    There are 3 classes of folk in the New Testament, under the New, EVERLASTING Covenant… they are :

    1). The Israel of God – Inheritants and heirs to the promise made by God unto Abraham… Who are CHRISTIANS ! Consists of FORMER Gentiles and Jews… (the remnant of the faithful out of OLD Israel has already been fulfilled).

    2). Gentiles – All those in the world who are ignorant of the one true God, and of their own Saviour.

    3). Jews – REJECTORS of God, and of His Deliverer – who was first sent to them, whose coming their own prophets had foretold – they knew Who He was, and received Him AS the Messiah when He rode in on an ass & they laid down garments and palm branches to welcome Him, crying, “Hosannah !”… But then they rejected Him (Blaspheming the Holy Spirit ?), and handed Him up to be crucified. These are NOT of Israel !! This should be self-evident, Job (… and others )!

    ~~~ ~~~ ~~~

    RE : Your stance on ‘sola scriptura’, what do you say to these passages… where Philip is sent by the Spirit to overtake an Ethiopian reading Scripture in His chariot…

    “So Philip ran to him, and heard him reading the prophet Isaiah, and said, ‘Do you understand what you are reading ?’. And he said, ‘How can I, unless someone guides me ?’. And he asked Philip to come and sit with him…”
    (Acts 8:30, 31)

    OR… : “… Knowing first that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation…”
    (I Peter 1:20)

    Know this Job : there IS a TANGIBLE Church here on earth which IS that Church founde by the Apostles. The Church of Rome, and ALL of the RESULTING Protestant denominations (abominations) ARE NOT of this ONE TRUE Church, because the things they are teaching are CLEAR inventions which were not known at all for the first 1000 years of united Christianity. The true Church founded by the Apostles is the deposit of the proper interpretations of scripture – NOT you ! You must join that body which has always TANGIBLY existed, for therein lies the guidance of the Holy Spirit…

    “For the Apostles, like a rich man in a bank, deposited with her (the Church) most copiously everything that pertains to the truth. And everyone who wishes, draws from her the drink of life. For she is the entrance to life, while all the rest are thieves and robbers. That is why it is surely necessary to avoid them, while cherishing with the utmost diligence the things pertaining to the Church, and to lay hold of the tradition of the truth.”
    – (Iren)

    But you wrote in one of your posts above that your “only interest is being true to the Bible and the doctrines therein. If it is not in the Bible, it is tradition, which makes them doctrines of man, works of the flesh. Those are abominations of the Roman Catholic (sic) church and of the Pharisees.”… So I must inform you Job that not ALL tradition is R.C. or Pharisaic in origin, NOR is all tradition recorded in Scripture !

    “Therefore brethren, stand fast and hold the traditions which you were taught, whether by word, or our epistle.”
    (II Thess. 2:15)

    “And there are also many other things that Jesus did, which if they were written one by one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that would be written. Amen.”
    (John 21:25)

    ~~~ ~~~ ~~~

    I wold also like to say that I (again) agree with ‘Remnant’, in that a TRUE Christian can have no demons in him, but onlt the Spirit of Truth, from which the demons flee in trembling and fear. If a ‘Christian’ has discernable demons, then the Holy Spirit is NOT in him, for we cannot serve two masters.

    This makes me bold enough to ask of you, Remnant; You call yourself ‘Remnant’ Are you of Old Israel ?… Does this mean that you also call yourself ‘Jew’ ?… You DO know that ‘Jew’ is a made-up word, don’t you ? Are you a Judean ? Are you a Judahite ? You seem very intelligent and clear minded… So, dou you really think that the Ashkenazi/Khazars and their murderous state of BLACK Israel in occupied Palestine can trace their origins back to the Hebrews of the Old Testament ? Can these who call themselves Jews (and ARE NOT, but DO lie !)even be reconciled with those identified as ‘Jews’ in the New Testament… as they claim ?

    Please don’t take this wrong or become offended… I am really interested to fnow your thoughts on these matters…

    Thanks everyone,
    Joshua

    • Remnant said

      Hi Joshua,
      and thanks for stepping in with some very good commentary! In regards to the subject of whether true Christians can be possessed by demons you said it better than I did! Your statement that a Christian cannot serve two masters hits it right on the nail.

      For too long people have been listening to silly books like “Pigs in the Parlor” and books by Rebecca Brown (who was, btw, proven to be a dishonest person & fraud, for those who do their research), etc., rather than correctly dividing the Word of Truth. As i also once did, out of ignorance. For just another example, where in the NT do we ever once see Paul or Peter or Jesus walking around “tearing down demonic strongholds” with what amounts to incantations? Yet silly Christians walk around neighborhoods spouting what amounts to reverse witchcraft where there is no biblical precedent. And when did Paul and Peter or Jesus walk around blaming demons for every sin or shouting at demons under every bush?

      As to your question put to me regarding whether I consider myself a “Jew”, no, i consider myself a Christian. Yes, I am aware of the story revolving around Ashkenazi Jews and FreeMasonry, and have read much on the Rothschild family. Very creepy stuff and while reading it i often wondered if they were some of the people Jesus was referring to when he spoke those words (about those who call themselves Jews but are not), as it is often said that the Jewish banking industry rules the world and hence the world governments. Certainly the Pharisees also fit the billing on “those who claim to be Jews but do lie”. There are also plenty of “Jews” like Madonna who practice the Kaballah (witchcraft).

      In the meantime Joshua, be careful not to judge Christians too harshly who DO consider themselves Jews, for many are on a learning journey and we dont all arrive on at the same understanding at once. For instance, i grew up with the RSV and thought THAT was the only true, unperverted Bible. When i got older and sat in church hearing all the different versions read and none of them saying the same thing i then began to ask God, “Lord, which is the REAL Holy Bible/Word of God?” In not so many days He answered me with an answer that shocked me and which i did not like: The King James. I had always hated the King James. But as i researched into it, i could not deny the Truth, revealed in the core doctrinal scriptures themselves (and well-laid out in the book, “NEW AGE BIBLE VERSIONS: AN EXHAUSTIVE DOCUMENTATION EXPOSING THE MESSAGE, MEN, AND MANUSCRIPTS MOVING MANKIND TO THE ANTICHRIST’S ONE WORLD RELIGION.” By G.A. RIPLINGER (1993 & 2000). But at one time I loved and read my RSV, all the while loving Jesus Christ with sincerity. We must only judge people according to the CORE doctrines of the faith, not according to trivial doctrines. If some people here on this forum still believe at this time that Christians can be possessed, I may consider them deceived or confused but it is not my place to judge them. I do have a problem with people who lie, falsely accuse me, split hairs, play word games, or otherwise contradict themselves however, as i noted in another post. That person needs to get honest.

  29. Remnant said

    FOR ALL, I REPEAT:

    I believe in “experiences” only insofar as they line up with the Word of God. If they contradict it then they are NOT to be believed. How is this so hard to understand? If you believe every “experience” story every person tells you then you leave yourself open to grand deception. Where does your standard of measurement or discernment lie, if not in the scriptures?

    I’ve had numerous spiritual “experiences”. If they don’t line up with scripture, i know who they are from (and Who they are not!).

  30. Diane said

    Remnant,

    1. Do you believe a Christian can backslide?

    2. Do you believe a Christian can become apostate?

    3. Since a person cannot serve 2 masters, when a Christian sins, are they serving the devil or God? (Answer: he is obviously serving the devil, but he is still a Christian)

    4. Is it unscriptural to believe that a backslidden Christian can serve the devil and become oppressed?

    5. Is it POSSIBLE that demonic oppression can lead to that individual having demons?

    Also, and more importantly, can you tell me why, in a conversation with people who are not trying to be combative, you insist on being divisive and rude? Are you at least willing to share your beliefs respectfully? You believe you have been misunderstood, but on the other hand you have misunderstood others and haven’t shown a willingness to acknowledge that, not even for the sake of Christ. David, you, myself and Job should be able to share what scripture says as well as our experience with this becoming an opportunity to belittle another believer.

    • Patty said

      Thank you, Diane

      I have one more question to add to yours.

      When someone is saved and accept Jesus, are they immediately delivered of all demons? It takes a long time to be delivered from them all, and sometimes, many never get delivered of them all. But they are still saved.
      Also, they do not act drunk.

      • Diane said

        Patty,
        I just heard a testimony of a man coming out of witchcraft needing that type of deliverance. Fortunately for him about 6 hours of Christians praying over him was enough to set him completely free.

    • Remnant said

      Diane, I have not belittled anyone. You EITHER falsely accuse me or misunderstand/misread me. It certainly was not my intention to belittle anyone here, although I have certainly felt that coming from you. You have also wrongly stated (and given the impression to another reader) that I said possessed people act drunk, which is NOT what i said at all
      So round and round it goes. This is why i said yesterday that this is a discussion better had over the phone or Skype, where tone of voice can be helpful in undertstanding one’s intent. Unfortunately that is not possible however.

      On to your questions: At this time i would say that I think (based on what i have both read in scripture and what i have heard preached) a Christian CAN backslide, even to the point of falling away (apostasy). But once apostasy happens the person is no longer a Christian. There are some who would disgree with me and say the apostate was never truly born-again or saved to begin with.

      Yes, it is possible that demonic oppression can lead to A PERSON eventually becoming possessed, it just cannot lead to a HOLY SPIRIT FILLED CHRISTIAN becoming possessed.

      Also, if a man continues to serve two masters, he will love the one or hate the other. Eventually the Holy Spirit CAN be grieved, and even depart (apostasy). THEN, a man IS open to another spirit.

      I hope this answers all your questions. I am finding this endless discussion tiresome (NO OFFENSE!!!). This is not doctrinally important enough to be a cause for division, but false accusations (or at least impressions of) managed to enter in early on. I assure you I am not angry nor do i practive a “mean” tone. If you knew me you would know I am simply a plain-speaking matter of fact person. And I dont see how you could have twisted my posts into something “mean” or “rude” or “belittling” and i find it quite strange to hear. Once again, this is not an area of doctrine that is so important that it should cause division. But what it is now again succeeding in doing (as the topic of demons always eventually does, I have learned) is to take the focus off CHRIST. I think i have now said all i can possibly say on this subject. (NO OFFENSE!!!!)

  31. David L. Williams said

    I agree, Diane. When it comes to a point that beligerance enters a conversation, I believe it is time for me to back off. I try to make my points, and if another cannot agree, that is fine. I refuse to argue in the mean sense of the word, and I refuse to call others names even if they imply I am a fool and don’t know what I’m talking about. I have only God to answer to, and I want Him to approve my love for my brethren. DavWms

  32. Diane said

    Dave
    Is everything ok with Patrick Williams? I haven’t seen his name on recent comments lately

  33. David L. Williams said

    Diane, I saw a post from him a couple of days ago on another place on this site. It was good to see he is still around. DavWms

  34. Diane said

    Remnant
    we should be able to discuss this topic. There are some areas of agreement between us and though we disagree, there are some things we can learn from those who have experience on that subject. There is only One expert in the ministry of healing and deliverance, and all of us here know Him to be our Lord Jesus, but sometimes a person’s partial understanding can help me, and my little understanding may be a help to someone else to strengthen their understanding.

    There is a difference between misunderstanding a person and intentionally using scripture to insult others that disagree with you, instead of using it to respectfully help others see your point of view. May the Holy Spirit reveal the intents and motives of our conduct.

    Remnant you wrote: “It certainly was not my intention to belittle anyone here, although I have certainly felt that coming from you.”

    – When you are in a conversation and your attitude is consistently condescending, you can expect people to be very frank with you. However, how have I belittled you?

    Remnant you wrote: “You have also wrongly stated (and given the impression to another reader) that I said possessed people act drunk, which is NOT what i said at all”

    – I have not stated nor have I implied anything about drunkenness. In a response to Patty’s comment that a person may need further deliverance after becoming a Christian, I gave an example of a man (who’s family had been involved with witchcraft for generations) who was still experiencing problems after giving his life to Jesus. Please show me where you’ve read me saying anything about drunkenness to another reader.

    I agree with you that a Christian can backslide into apostasy and become a branch broken off to be burned, so, others will also disagree with me there as well. I disagree, however with your belief that a truly born again Christian cannot be demonized. I would hesitate to say at what point a person is not truly saved after genuinely accepting Christ as Lord. That is not what I believe the Lord wants my focus to be, if that individual is in need of deliverance. I originally responded to you with my hopes being that you would see a different perspective, because your comments seemed to attack the legitimacy of spiritual warfare altogether.

    Remnant you wrote: “And I dont see how you could have twisted my posts into something ‘mean’ or ‘rude’ or belittling’ and i find it quite strange to hear.”

    #11 “You will not find such an example unless you create it with your imagination”

    Unless you mistakenly believe your choice of words reflects a respect for others, you would have to admit this statement is insulting to those sincerely involved in the work of this particular ministry.

    Remnant you wrote: “I do have a problem with people who lie, falsely accuse me, split hairs, play word games or otherwise contradict themselves however, as i noted in another post. That person needs to get honest”

    I understand David to be saying translators said the word “possessed” was to strong, so demonized is a better translation. He is not playing word games. There are times where in the King James the word possessed is used, when the meaning is “brought forth” or “gave birth”. I believe you misunderstood David’s desire to clarify that word.

    I myself, can respond to a topic because it has been abused by others in a negative way, and I think that’s what’s happening here. David, you, I, Job and a host of others have experienced the kookyness of bad spiritual warfare, so that can cause us to be so repulsed that we despise genuine ministry. Perhaps in your zeal and desire for the Church to be faithful to God, your attitude towards us was that we are teaching something false and harmful. I don’t know. But I would definitely like to end our discussion on a better note, whether we disagree or not.

    God bless

  35. The Prodigal Son said

    Remnant,

    Thanks for your kind reply… I must admit I was a little nervous asking those things; these are touchy subjects to many people and there is a lot of money involved. For certain folk, in this age – money is power – which said folk seek ruthlessly. It always leads back to money, and from money to lies… lies to death…

    Anyhow, it seems that any time I mention the word ‘Jew’, or point out the VERY REAL Talmudic DEEDS and predjudices that are currently held against us as Christians, I will invariably be branded as ‘anti-Semetic’ or hate-filled, when in fact I am neither ! I hate lies and I love the truth… Jesus is the truth, so that’s all there is to it for me ! It is true that God will judge the Talmudists, but that does not mean that my fellow Christians and I do not need to be aware of their works – surely the works of darkness – and also to REPROVE THEM AND TO HAVE NO FELLOWSHIP WITH THEM IN THEIR UN-FRUITFUL WAYS !

    I can see that you Remnant also have a love for the truth, and I commend you for that… I am proud to be able to call you my brother/sister in Christ, mostly because Christians – be they ‘Jewish’ in origin or African or Palestinian – wherever they are from need to try to help each other in the REAL fight against REAL evil, through Mammon, which is of the Devil himself and made manifest here on earth for all to see. I don’t suppose that anyone will call you anti-semetic now, will they ?

    As far as judging anyone ? – No… but I will try to lead them pointedly, perhaps bluntly into the truth. Leading someone into truth proves – by your actions (sometimes met with hostility) – that your actual, initial motive was LOVE for them ! If the greatest love is to lay down your life for your brother… perhaps a close second would be leading someone to find Christ… I wonder if leading someone into truth might be third, because the Spirit of Truth is the Spirit of God ?

    On to the King James… which version ? Because it has been quietly revised and updated, over & over since it’s inception as well. I also have a problem with it because it continues to mis-translate the word ‘Judean’ into the new, made-up word ‘Jew’… The repercussions of this are nearly endless, once one begins to fully grasp the connotations in the beliefs of almost ALL of the ‘Christians’ in America, Canada, Australia, the E.U., etc., etc. – it’s bewildering to me Remnant !

    Just allow me to demonstrate:

    “Jesus of Nazareth – King of the Jews”
    OR
    “Jesus of Nazareth – Ruler of the Judeans”

    Can you spot the subtle (hah) difference there my new friend ? THIS has allowed the creation of the Frankenstein monster that is ‘Judeo-Christianity’ (which is an oxymoron), it has enabled fake ‘Jews’ to hijack the word ‘Jew’ and the word ‘Israel’ – thusly promoting the ridiculous fallacy that Jesus was a ‘Jew’ – therefore implying some sort of kinship – when in fact the only connection the ‘Judaism’ of today has with the New Testament is that they are the direct descendants of Pharisaism, which God Himself completely abhorred ! All of this non-sense has also led to the creation, recognition, and continued support of the criminal, murderous ‘Jewish State’ of Israel.

    Tell me Remnant, do you read Hebrew ? Also – are you familiar with the Greek Old Testament – the Septuagint (LXX)in the Greek to English ? I think if you check it out you will see that things are brought forth more clearly, especially in the prophecies regarding the coming of the Messiah, Our Lord.

    Peace !

    • Remnant said

      Joshua (aka Prodigal Son),

      Hi again. No, i do not speak or read Hebrew. I wish! As to “what version of the King James”, it would be the Authorized version. I have a friend who went and bought the “New” King James, which apparently has some flaws in it, but am not going to nit pick or disuade him, as he is a new Believer and at least he has that. Better that than the NIV (aka Jehovah Witness’s protection team, lol. Most people don’t know that the NIV says some of the same things the JW’s “bible” does–and no, folks, dont ask me what they are, research it yourself, i dont want to get into it).

      On the other stuff you mention, I guess i am not following you quite so well. Some of it, but not all of it. I agree on the Ashkenazi “Jews” but I dont think that ALL Jews in Israel today are “murderous” and “criminal”. I also like Benjamin Netanyahu (so far), what little i know about him; i like the fact that he has so far possessed a backbone and not been a total sellout on Jewish land, like Sharon and those before him. I hope he can continue to stand up to America, Obama(nation), and the UN.

      A real good website to help keep our minds on Christ in this day and age is http://www.illbehonest.com. I will leave concerns over the Jews to the Lord. God bless you Joshua.

  36. David L. Williams said

    We can all see that we read into the Bible differently and come up with different conclusions on many subjects. I picture this in my mind as a wide scale with a centerline representing accuracy. On one side the scale is divided into 10 parts, with Charismania as the extreme, # 10. They prefer living by experiences, even when those experiences do not line up with the Bible.

    Going back toward the centerline are different levels of seeking experience for experience’ sake, all the way to discerning experiences to see whether they are of God or not, rightly dividing the Word.

    On the other side of the scale are varying levels of seeking the Word only, with the extreme being those who will only look for laws to obey, and who close their eyes to anything not directly shown in the Bible. # 10.(Emphasis on “directly shown.”) This extreme also believes that the Bible covers every subject completely. Going from that extreme back toward the centerline are varying levels of acceptance of what people on the other side of the centerline take from their Bibles. Closer to rightly dividing the Word, the centerline.

    This leaves a lot of room for us to differ on Bible subjects. Also involved in our opinions are our set personalities, causing us to lean one way or another. We also must consider where our foundational teaching came from. Not all of us are willing to relook at this, and change our minds as we see Biblical truth revealed. DavWms

  37. David L. Williams said

    P.S. To my above post: An example of our needing to use our minds to read between the lines in the Bible, as well as the lines themselves. In John 3, Nicodemius came to Jesus with questions. The need to be born again was explained to him. Nicodemus, a Pharisee, was confused, asking how one can go back again into the womb? Jesus chided him saying,” Are you a teacher of Israel, and yet you do not understand this?”

    How could Nicodemus know about this, when it had not even been close to revealed in the Torah, the Word they had? It is likely Nicodemus might have more easily understood this when Jesus presented it to him, had he been able to see past the Law in the Bible to see the heart of God as did David. I was also in this category until I had an experience with God, as follows:

    I had just watched a documentary on Egypt where they showed the pyramid we have all seen pictures of, the one without the capstone. I wondered if this was the last project Israel worked on, incomplete, a parable to Israel leaving Egypt without their Capstone, Jesus.

    Suddenly, I heard, “Watch this!” An open vision appeared before me. It was a pyramid made of many perfectly shaped stones. I “knew” each stone represented a verse in the Bible. Then a red line appeared, going from one stone to another, all the way across the pyramid. And from there, to another and another, until the whole pyramid was red. Then I heard, “Every verse in the Bible should be considered in the light of every other verse.”

    This opened me to see that if we look at ONLY in context, we will be looking for a rule to follow to please God. I knew that yes, we need sometimes to read in context to learn specific meanings, but we need to be careful in this, not seeing the whole picture. I think of it like this: If you were given a small tube to look thru at a fine work of art, you would only see a small part of the picture and miss the overall beauty.

    So to me, I see one extreme looking at experiences as their guide, but missing the overall picture. They have a relationship with experiences, but not necessarily with Jesus. On the other end of the scale, I see some looking only at the strict laws, and their relationship is with the Bible, but not necessarily Jesus.DavWms

  38. The Prodigal Son said

    Remnant,

    Thank you, and may God also bless you and keep you in a clear state of mind, so you may see clearly the deception of which I speak…

    You said that you “will leave concerns over the Jews to the Lord.”

    Ah, Remnant you have not fully understood me yet… replace the word ‘Jews’ in your statement above with the word ‘Pharisees’.

    Shall we leave concerns over the Pharisees to the Lord ? Did not Christ admonish us to beware the leaven of the Pharisees ? Because the ‘Jews’ and the Talmudic Judaism (Pharisaism) of today IS that leaven of the Pharisees – perpetuated BY the Talmud – known in Jesus’ time as the ‘traditions of men’ or the traditions of the elders… Are we as Christians not to EXPOSE and REPROVE the works of darkness ?

    I did not say that ALL Jews in Israel today are murderous and criminal – but the ‘Jewish’ state itself – created and controlled directly by the Rothschilds, certainly has been just that ! I do not hesitate to declare that Satan himself is clearly behind their nefarious deeds. Their mark (which was the Rothschilds mark BEFORE it was Israel’s) – the hexagram – I am persuaded to believe may be the Biblical mark of the beast…

    The Rothschilds/Israeli hexagram (so-called ‘star of David’) has 6 points and is formed from 6 lines, consisting of 6 triangles within… it is the mark of a man (NOT King David… but Solomon) who also has Scriptural connections with that number… In addition to that, because this mark is hidden in plain sight on every U.S. dollar bill – most of the world has ALREADY received this mark into their right hands. And if they haven’t yet received it into their right hands, they may very well already have it on their minds (foreheads?)… I hope and pray that I am wrong about this, but it all fits rather well doesn’t it ?

    Where exactly in the world do you think the anti-Christ will rise, Remnant ?

    ~~~ ~~~ ~~~

    You also betray a certain affinity for the ‘Jewish’ state of Israel in your writing – although you yourself claim to be Christian… Do you feel the same affinity for Palestinian Christians ? You like Benjamin Netanyahu ? Seriously ? He is a notorious Judeo-supremecist ! You hope he can stand up to Obama and the U.N ? Surely you jest ! Israel (Rothschilds) controls the U.S. almost completely now ! They don’t even try to hide it anymore, yet some people (usually Judeo-Christians) still will argue the fact ! The U.N. ? Israel COMPLETELY IGNORES the U.N. and all of that institutions resolutions AGAINST the state of Israel ! Israelis seem to think nothing of killing U.N. Staff, including Peacekeepers. Just yesterday the Israelis shot and killed the driver of a U.N. supply truck, critically wounding the passenger !

    You think Ariel Sharon had no backbone ? Here are a few qoutes from ‘Akin the Prince’…

    “Maybe they will start to tremble, to fear my madness instead of admiring my nobility. Thank God for that. Let them tremble, let them call us a mad state. Let them understand that we are a wild country, dangerous to our surroundings, not normal… That we might go crazy if one of our children is murdered – just one ! That we might go wild and burn all the oil fields in the Middle East ! Let them be aware in Washington, Moscow, Damascus and China that if one of our ambassadors is shot, or even a consul, or the most junior embassy official, we might start World War Three JUST LIKE THAT !”…

    “Even today I am willing to volunteer to do the dirty work for Israel, to kill as many Arabs as necessary, to deport them, to expel and burn them, to have everyone hate us. To pull the rug from underneath the feet of the diaspora Jews, so that they will be forced to run to us crying. Even if it means blowing up one or two synagogues here and there, I don’t care. And I don’t mind if after the job is done you put me in front of a Nuremburg trial and then jail me for life. Hang me if you want as a war criminal… What you lot don’t understand is that the dirty work of Zionism is not finished yet – FAR FROM IT !”
    – Ariel Sharon in an interview with Israeli journalist Amos Os, in the Israeli daily ‘Davar’ in 1982

    “Every time we do something you tell me America will do this and will do that… I want to tell you something very clear : Don’t worry about American pressure on Israel. We, the Jewish people control America and the Americans know it.”
    – Ariel Sharon to Simon Peres, Oct 3/2001 on Kol Yisrael Radio

    As for Benjamin Netanyahu, when asked about the ‘attacks’ of 9/11, he said, “It’s very good – well – not very good, but it will generate immediate sympathy (for Israel).”
    and…
    “We are benefitting from one thing, and that is the attack on the twin towers and the Pentagon, and the American struggle in Iraq. These events swung American public opinion in our (Israel’s) favor.”

    Sounds like a great guy to me !

    • Remnant said

      Hello Joshua/Prodigal Son,

      That is some interesting commentary on the Mark/Hexagram. I never heard before that it was in any way connected to Solomon but assumed it was connected way back to early pagan worship by the Jews, during the days when they worshipped the host of heaven (Raphim? or something similar?). So I did some research and found this at http://www.cephas-library.com:

      “The word holocaust means burnt offering, and the six-pointed star was used in the past when burnt human sacrifices were offered to Moloch and Ashtoreth in Baal worship. The few Jews who had anything to do with the Six-Pointed star (hexagram) were those who were involved in occult practices. Back to Hitler, would he put anything good on a Jew? Hitler meant to insult and destroy the Jews, and being wrapped up in the occult (read the book, The Nazis and the Occult ), he may have meant the Jews to be his burnt offering for power.”

      And this:

      “The first mention of the six-pointed star in Israelite literature was in Amos 5:6, when YAWEH angrily tells His people that ” I hate and despise your feast days…. You shall take up Siccuth, your king and Chiun your images, the star of your God….” Siccuth (Sakkuth) and Chiun (Kaiwan) means “star” and refers to Saturn as a star, and was objects of idolatrous worship, as they were considered to be Assyrian gods. The mixed multitude that went out of Egypt with the children of Israel took the star with them. Like the obelisk, the six-pointed star was an Egyptian idol used in idolatrous worship. In 922 B.C. when Solomon married the daughter of Pharoah, he became involved in Egyptian idol worship and went into magic, and witchcraft. Solomon built an altar to Ashtoreth and Moloch, and the six-pointed star, the chief symbol of human sacrifices in magic and witchcraft circles, came to be called the Seal of Solomon.”

      However, i found no such verse in Amos 5:6. I do know there is such a verse somewhere in the scripture and have read it before; i think the author of this article got confused and wrote the wrong verse by mistake.

      Joshua, there is also another symbol used by Jews in Israel, and it is the Menorrah/Seven Candlesticks. There are probably true Jews in Israel who do not like the use of the Star and would like to see it eliminated. But “good” people are always in the minority.

      Where do i think the AntiChrist will arise FROM? I do not know. Possibly in Israel, possibly Rome. Or possibly a half-Arab, half Jew Roman from elsewhere in the Revived Roman Empire (EU). Many a good argument has been made for each.

      I think we should not label ALL Jews as “evil”. I understand what you are saying now about Judaism being the same Phariseeism from Jesus’ day, but I also know that in Jesus’ day many Jews were saved out of that religious system and there are yet still more who will be saved out of it. And remember, Jesus loved them enough to die on the cross for them (and us).

      As for Netanyhu’s comments, I dont have a problem with them; he was simply stating a fact. Or at least, what one would EXPECT would result from the 911 attacks. I have listened to Netanyahu speak publically before and I dont think he was really applauding the tragedy, but simply stating what he thought some of the repercussions would be. You have to understand, Israel is really tired of being at war and constantly attacked by suicide bombers. You would be too. And yes, i do think that Israel is continually being victimized, by the UN, by Muslims, and the world at large.

      As for the comments you posted by Sharon, for all that hot air he was totally spineless and threw out hundreds of his own people from their own homes & land, schools, and even cemetaries! He caused great suffering to the citizens who rightly owned and lived on the land and allowed Muslims to come in and steal it and desecrate it all. After that he had a stroke and perished. Sounds like judgement to me.

      Here is the difference in thinking between you and me: you view all Jews as powerful and controlling nations, Israel and world events. I view only the Ashkenazi Jews/Pharisees/Kabbalists (or whatever you would call them) as being deviously involved and I view them as rogue members and TRAITORS to Israel at large. They may hold seats of power in many places (including the Mossad), but I also think there are a few decent people in power in the Israeli government who prevent them from yet COMPLETELY taking over, just as there is the occasional half-way decent person in our own government (albeit i cant think of one right now!).

      God has made the Jews spiritually blind until the time of the Gentiles be fulfilled. When one day they suddenly realize their error they will mourn and weep. Remember Joshua, there are yet many who WILL be saved out of Judaism. And the land of Israel DOES belong to the Jews, not to the Arabs. So i will continue to support Israel’S right to their land. Does that make sense? I dont suppose I have done a very good job of explaining what i am trying to say but this is the best i can do right now.

  39. David L. Williams said

    I would like to see praise to God for what He is going to do in Israel. This, to balance the railing against the present Jews. I see no one claiming the present Jews are holy, and to be revered as so. But we are sharing in God’s love toward them while not condoning all they do. Doing this does not mean we are against the Palestinian Christians. We are taking God’s words seriously, that those who bless Israel will be blessed, and those who curse Israel will be cursed.

    I see none of us denying there are groups, including some Jews, that are trying to gain power over the whole world. All this is an attempt to thwart God’s plans for future Israel, as has ever been the plan of the devil. If he can cause God’s promise to Israel to fail, it will show God is not sovereign and the devil wins.

    God promised Israel He would never abandon them. He shows in the Bible, that the 70th week of Daniel (Jacob’s trouble) is yet to come, when His focus returns to Israel. Before He departed, Jesus told us that he has other flocks to attend. That word, “other” did not mean that Israel was no longer one of His flocks. It was another of them.

    So it is presently like a perenthesis in time, where God’s focus is on raising up other sons of Abraham. That is us, Christians, from gentiles grafted in. We are shown that this time of the gentiles will end, and again God will deal with the Israelites for 7 years.

    This period of time is known as the Tribulation Period, and it will be very harsh. But it will cause the surviving Jews to cry out to ” He who comes in the name of the Lord.” They will then meet the criteria of coming to Jesus, their Savior, and only then will all Israel be saved.

    So where is the balance, the rest of the story? Why the constant railing against God’s chosen people without also praising God for what He is going to do with them? DavWms

  40. Remnant said

    Oh wow, i also found this shocking historical info on the Megan Star (“Star of David”)and 666
    at http://www.cephas-library.com (!!):

    Solomon did not heed the subsequent warnings from God to cease from these abominable practices, even after God threatened to rend the Kingdom of Israel from his son’s hand. And indeed, the split occurred after Solomon’s death. Solomon’s idolatry caused the Kingdom of Israel to be split in two. The practices he introduced to the children of Israel eventually caused the House of Israel to go into exile into the Caucasus, and the House of Judah to go into captivity. It was Josiah who later destroyed this forbidden altar. Did you know that the number 666 was connected to Solomon? (1 Kings 10:14) Yes, 666 talents of gold was sent to Solomon each month by none other than the King of Tyrus. After you have read this account in the book of 1 Kings, turn to Ezekiel Chapter 28. Oh, what a tangled web was weaved, when Solomon practised to deceive. King Solomon left many articles which proved his blatant idolatry, such as King Solomon’s Mirror, King Solomon’s Comb, and the six-pointed star, which became known as the Seal of Solomon in the witchcraft and occult world. Solomon also laid down the foundations of the Craft (Daniel 8:25) which later became known as Freemasonry., and the six-pointed star features prominently in Masonic rituals.

    King David was Solomon’s father, but he was never an idolater. He made it absolutely clear that God Himself was his shield, not only in Psalm 3:3 but in Psalm 28:7, Psalm 119:114, and Psalm 144:2.

    The book, The Six-Pointed Star, is the first and only academic work which documents the origin and historical usage of this symbol. From Egypt to Solomon, to Arab magic, and witchcraft, to Druid uses, to freemasonry, to Mayer Amschel Bauer, who in the 17th century changes his name to depict the red six-pointed star which hung on his door in Germany, and thus began the family of “Rothschild” (meaning red shield). The Rothschild family incorporated this symbol in their Court of Arms. The research traced the six-pointed star through the Cabala, to astrology, to Hitler and his putting a yellow six-pointed star on Jews during the holocaust, to the Zionist symbol, and finally to the flag of the State of Israel and beyond.

    Because this symbol is comprised of a six within a six within a six (i.e. 6 points, 6 triangles, 6 sides of the inner hexagon) the research also includes a look at the 666 prophecies in the Book of Daniel etc., regarding the “willful king” (anti-Christ) and the “mark of the Beast.” Included too, is the Scriptural significance of the number seven, and the Biblical description of the real Messiah, and the seven-branched Candlestick (Menorah), which God gave to the children of Israel as an everlasting Covenant, which is also mentioned in the New Testament and the Book of the Revelation. All sources are written at the bottom of each page making it easy for readers to see and check for themselves. It is the first and only book published on the origin and history of the six-pointed star. The book contains shocking information regarding the usage of the six-pointed star and its intimidating link with mankind. Have a good read. Click here to order.
    http://members.attcanada.ca/~vrai/SixPointedStar.htm (obsolete)
    http://www.amazon.com/Six-Pointed-Star-Its-Origin-Usage/dp/0968938302

    Fascinating stuff!

    • David L. Williams said

      Good posts, Remnant. Very interesting study. DavWms

      • Remnant said

        Yes. I dont know about you but i have always been shocked and frightened by Solomon’s apostasy; i think to myself, if someone once called the wisest man on earth could fall into apostasy, what chance does a poor schmuck like me have?! It is astonishing that a man whom God Himself spoke to and manifested Himself to and gave such great wisdom to could later become engaged in the occult (worship of Moloch involved child sacrifices!). Solomon experienced God’s presence and love in a way that i never have, so what on earth happened?! It is shocking and sad and makes me almost cry. Other thoughts: does this mean that all of David’s sons are in Hell? (rebel Absolom, apostate Solomon, rapist Amnon, and traitous Adonijah) Or were they given a chance to accept Christ after his crucifixion (i forget which NT book says that Christ descended and appeared onto the OT saints in prison/Hell–anyone got that verse?) And if they ARE, how is it that God will “wipe away every tear” of David’s or every tear of any of us who have lost loved ones in Hell? Oh how David mourned the loss of his son Absolom; he would have preferred to die in his place. Just some thoughts.

  41. David L. Williams said

    The only thing I see in Solomon’s fall was that his wisdom was a gift, and not learned personal wisdom as we have to go thru. In fact, he never asked God for wisdom, but he dreamed he did. Since the wisdom was a gift, it seems he had wisdom for others, but not for himself. He proved that over and over. What he had going for him was God’s promise not to visit David’s sins on him, and so he knew he would reign in peace. Yet he disobeyed God and bought horses and chariots from Egypt, whom no Israelite was to do business with. He also established fortresses on his borders. He was preparing for a war God promised would never come upon him.

    He also married too many women, after writing that a man should have no more than one wife. Some of those women were foreigners and idol worshipers, and he bowed to them and allowed high places of idol worship to be built right there in Jerusalem.

    Solomon is not the only leader that had God’s grace all over them, and still exhibited evil. Many overlook these others and wish they were like them. This includes Joseph, Moses, and David, beyond his adultery with Bathsheeba. DavWms

    • Remnant said

      Dave, I’m not sure what you are trying to say here, or what your ultimate point is (NO OFFENSE; PLEASE DO NOT IMAGINE A TONE THAT IS *NOT* PRESENT IN THE LAST HALF OF THAT SENTENCE!). I appreciate you pointing out something i had never noticed before, however, and that is Solomon’s building of fortresses along his borders despite the promise of national peace from God. Or could he have decided that a time of peace was a good time to build for a day when there would no longer be peace, such as after his own reign ended? Then again, given his OTHER disobediences it is much more likely the case as you have stated.

      Everyone sins. David’s sins and those of others mentioned do not shock me. What shocks & frightens me is the utter apostasy/turning away of a man so close to God. Anyone who is not scared by this really should be.

  42. Remnant said

    Prodigal Son/Joshua,

    Here is an article on tonight’s news (CNN.COM). Just one more example of persecution of Jews. Tell me, what do you think of this? And what is your opinion on the Holocaust? Here is the story from today:

    May 20th, 2009
    4 ARRESTED IN ALLEGED SYNAGOGUE BOMB PLOT
    Posted: 10:09 PM ET
    NEW YORK (CNN) — Four men were arrested Wednesday for an alleged plot to bomb a New York synagogue and Jewish community center, according to the U.S. Attorney’s office.

    The men also wanted to use surface-to-air missiles to fire at U.S. military planes, according to a criminal complaint filed in White Plains, New York.

    James Cromitie, David Williams, Onta Williams and Laguerre Payen are accused of plotting to detonate explosives near a synagogue in the Riverdale section of Bronx, New York.

    Each man had at least one alias, according to the office.ew York.

    The charges are based on information from an FBI informant, the attorney’s office said in a written statement.

  43. mj said

    Great discussion guys, its good to debate. When thinking of good and bad spirits read CS Lewis Screwtape letters. Its a great book, been made into a play about the devil or negative spirit.

    Yes there is a “negative” SPIRIT but Jesus has overcome the world. When you become a mature Christian, you learn to bat it off like fly. New Christians don’t be scared…Jesus is Lord, Jesus reigns. Just pray, seek God, hang out with nice people that are compassionate. Any negative thoughts may be your own stuff but if it’s too much to handle get good sound counselling and pray and be with Christians you cant trust or get advice from

    God Bless

  44. David L. Williams said

    Remnant, I too am sad at our apostacy, our turning away from the foundations our Lord and the Apostles laid out for us. When I mentioned the names of some of our past Bible heroes, I wasn’t necessarily talking about their sins. I was talking about iniquity. In several places in the OT, the two words, sin, and iniquity, have the word “and” between them. This indicates they are two different things. Connected, yes, but nevertheless different. This, even tho Webster’s Dictionary does not point this out.

    Sin, from what I can determine from reading the Bible, is an action that can be seen with eyes. Iniquity is hidden within us, and is the reason we sin. It is the spiritual root that cannot be seen by eyes. Example follows:

    David asked in the Psalms, for God to search his heart and find any iniquity there. God answered that prayer by sending David some trials to expose the iniquity. So David let himself be talked out of going to the front lines of a war along with his troops. (As kings were to do.) Meanwhile, he saw Bathsheeba bathing and sent for her. He sinned. Then he arranged for her husband to be murdered to cover up his sin.

    When the prophet confronted him, he repented. But he only repented of what others could see. So God arranged another trial to expose his iniquity. David was tempted to count the fighting men under him, even tho warned not to do this. The resulting plague caused David to repent again, but again, only to what people could see.

    David loved Absalom more than Solomon, his brother. This, even knowing God had chosen Solomon as the next king. He admired the warrior in Absolom. God arranged another trial, and David’s general called him to the front lines to take credit for winning the war. David went and took glory for what he had no part in. It seems here, that God gave up on trying to show David his iniquity, as it is shown Bathsheeba had to do the arranging for Solomon’s coronation. David had become rather useless in his old age.

    So what was the iniquity, the hidden roots of David’s sin? It was an arrogance (hidden unknown pride) of high position that allowed him to use and manipulate people under him, sinning against them. He remained unaware of this, but God saw it and tried to expose it in the trials sent to David.

    As humble as David was openly, there was hidden iniquity in him. This is a spiritual matter. And like I said before, the same was in Joseph, Moses, and other leaders. It can be seen if looked for, but it is hard to see because of our teaching that these were heroes to be looked up to. This causes us to miss other truths God put in the Word.

    To be sure, God showed His approval of those leaders in many ways. This is because He reveals some things slowly in the Bible, but keeps us blind to other truths until He is ready to show them. David did not have our advantage of time. Each era gets revelation FROM THE BIBLE in its own time.

    It is nearing the end, and if the Bride is to prepare herself, (Rev 19:7) She must get rid of her spots and wrinkles. This can only come about when She finds and rids herself of her hidden iniquity. DavWms

    • Remnant said

      Dave,

      Good distinction you give her between sin and iniquity! Very well spoken! Not sure what to make of your assertions that God sent those “trials”; i do not think them trials but temptations, and scripture says that God tempts no one. I do not see the temptation of Bathsheba as a “trial”; it was a temptation. Same goes for the numbering of Israel; the national census David took; it was a temptation to his pride. But God Himself tempts no man.
      To me a “trial” is a hardship like what Job went through, and Paul, etc. and is not necessarily the result of personal sin. And yet, it is certainly the case that God may allow trials not just to test us but to refine us and expose our iniquities to us just as you say. So overall, an excellant expose’ on the topic!

  45. The Prodigal Son said

    Remnant,
    You said, “as to what version of the King James, it would be the authorized version.”… I say again to you that the ‘authorized version’ has, since it’s inception – been quietly revised and updated. These progressive changes are undeniable… though the title ‘authorized’ never changed.
    You said that I view all Jews as powerful and controlling nations… I never said that – but the fact is that the majority of those who call themselves ‘Jews’ are NOT of Hebrew ancestry. (Not) suprisingly, Palestinians are shown to be the descendants of the Israelites, who were then later forcibly converted to Islam. THIS is the main point that the ‘Judeo-Christians’ are missing when they blindly support anti-Christ Israel. They are happily paying for the weapons that are killing the descendants of the Israelites, and of the Apostles and of Christ Himself !
    Do yo really honestly believe that the Rothschilds don’t control everything in the state of Israel ? I have told you – they CREATED Israel ! Search the net and look at images of the Israeli supreme court building ! Look at the huge masonic pyramid (like the one on the dollar) on the road into Israel ! LOOK AT THEIR FLAG !
    You have shown that the ‘Seal of Solomon’ has brought nothing but the wrath of God unto Israel in the past, more than once – yet the Rothschilds choose this clearly satanic symbol for their own… then Israel puts it on their flag ? How much more blatant…

    Of course there are good people in Israel ! I am sure of it – for THEY are the ONLY reason we ever hear ANY truth from inside of Talmudic, apartheid Israel ! But – as it is here in North America – these types of people generally have limited power… mostly because they do not SEEK power ruthlessly the way evil people do. The almighty dollar is what they seek, and dollars and evil go hand – in – hand.

    Tell me Remnant; out of ALL the Jews in the world – percentage-wise – how many do you think adhere to the doctrines of the Talmud ? Doctrines which state that all non-Jews are not really human… but are actually animals in a human form, put here on earth by God to serve the Jews as slaves ? Are there any Jews that reject the Talmud ? (I don’t mean secular Jews or Messianic Jews… but every day religious Jews. Do they or do they not all study and adhere to the ‘wisdom’ of the Talmud ? Those that DO – are NOT of Israel… they are of the synagogue of Satan !

    The story you provided from CNN is suspect to me… Mostly because it’s from CNN, and I don’t believe ONE WORD they tell me !… Why ? Because on 9/11 – I watched the second plane hit one of the towers LIVE on t.v…. I watched people jumping out the windows to certain death… I watched BOTH of the towers fall – IMPOSSIBLY !

    And then – on CNN – I watched Paula Zahn, Wolf Blitzer, and Larry King (all Jews) telling me that ‘Muslims’ did it ! They said Bin Laden had set it all up from a cave in Afghanistan ! They said 4,000 Israelis were at ground zero when the towers went down… They said a passenger plane hit the pentagon (impossible) !

    So I don’t believe a word they say, because they DIDN’T tell me about all of the Israeli spies – some 200 of them – which were arrested, then quietly deported by the (Jewish) Attornay General. They DIDN’T tell me of the five ‘dancing Israelis’, arrested after they were seen celebrating, laughing and cheering as the twin towers burned… They had a camera set up on a tripod trained ON the towers BEFORE the first plane hit. They too were quietly deported back to Israel, where they went on t.v. and said that they had been there “to document the event”. They DIDN’T tell me that the twin towers were FULL of asbestos and had to be demolished… a demolition that would have been ridiculously expensive – because it had to be done one floor at a time, from the top to the bottom ! They never told me that a Jew, Larry Silverstein had taken over the lease on the twin towers (held for decades by the port authority), and then taken out a huge new insurance policy just 6 weeks previous to 9/11 – with a specific clause pertaining to terrorist attacks. They never told me how Larry himself had orderd the demolition of WTC #7 whwn he told them to “pull it”… or that the BBC reported that building 7 had collapsed almost a half-hour before it actually did. And they never did explain how – even though there were supposed to be 4,000 Israelis at ground zero – in the end there was ONLY ONE… or how the Israeli based internet messaging company ‘Odigo’ had received a warning to vacate their offices in proximity to ground zero… I could go on (and on), but I wont. Suffice to say – I think CNN does nothing but LIE, and spew propaganda all day !

    If anyone really did have a plot to blow up a synagogue (which I doubt – what would it accomplish ?)… then of course I would condemn such a plan which perpetrates violence on innocent people ! However, my own digging has shown me that these men were set up by, financed by, and encouraged by the F.B.I.! They even sold them a fake bomb… clearly entrapment, no ?

    I would also again refer you to the quote by Ariel Sharon where he clearly states that he would have no qualms in blowing uo a synagogue (or two!) to advance the Zionist objective. There have been many, many Jewish hate-hoaxes, as I’m sure you know. These things are part of their agenda, so we must be aware that they WILL do them to further something like internet censorship.

    What is my opinion on the Holocaust ! I think that the ‘Jews’ should never have declared war on Germany in 1933 ! I know that many – TOO many Jews died during the war which they started, and many, many other Christians as well… In fact – More Christians lost their lives in those years than Jews.

    I do not believe there were ever any homicidal gas-chambers ANYWHERE in which Jews were murdered. According to the International Red Cross records from ALL the camps, throughout the WHOLE WAR, there were less than 300,000 Jews which lost their lives, from TYPHUS and STARVATION. So I will say that no more than 500,000 Jews died in the war which they started.

    • Remnant said

      Prodigal/Joshua,

      The correct Authorized version, i am told, would be the 1611. They can still be purchased online, but the grammar is rather odd at times. As to the changes you mentioned, I am not too concerned about small changes; it is changes to core doctrinal verses and the diety of Christ, the Trinity, etc that I would be concerned about. I think a site called av1611.org sold the 1611.

      I cant comment on most of what you state about 9-11, etc. Yes, I know that the Rothschilds are very powerful and satanic. But God has more control over what happens in or with Israel than they do, so i’m not worried. No, i dont know how many Jews read/practice the Talmud but i agree it’s probably a lot, and yes religious Jews have been a murderous people since Jesus’ day (spending all their time trying to murder Jesus and Paul, etc)–but not all of them; many converted and will convert.

      I respectfully disagree with you about the Holocaust. No offense, but you are consumed with conspiracy theories; you are seeing conspiracy in everything now. Yes, there is surely some conspiracy involved here and there, and maybe even 9-11 for all i know, but to carry it as far as the Holocaust is quite unrealistic. Do you also deny the mass murders of Jewish children under both Herod and Pharoah?

  46. The Prodigal Son said

    P.S…. In 1933, when international ‘Jewry’ declared war on Germany… they did so because Germany began to print her OWN monies, INSTEAD of borrowing them from the USURIOUS Rothchilds banks. As a result, they went from having the WORST economy in Europe to becoming the STRONGEST nation in Europe – in less than 5 years ! Imagine if this freedom (a freedom the U.S. was FOUNDED on) had spread ?!?… – Hitler had to be stopped ! If the new German monetary model had not been crushed… there would be NO Federal Reserve today ! No Rothschild Banks – Imagine the PROSPERITY of not having to pay interest to print our own money ! ~~~ ~~~ Also in 1933, when international ‘Jewry’ declared war on Germany, at that time they called themselves ‘Judea’, NOT ‘Israel’ ! … Perhaps that will bring you closer to understanding the deception at work here; … are ‘Israel’ and ‘Judea’ synonymous – in your opinion, dear Remnant ?

  47. David L. Williams said

    Whew, Remnant. LOL, I didn’t expect to rewrite the concepts of my book here. But here we go. In my above post about David, I only mentioned he asked God to show any iniquity in him. But he also asked God to show him His ways. God also showed His ways. His ways were about sending trials to expose iniquity. While David did not see this, it is important for our day to see this.

    Yes, it is true God does not tempt us…but can we prove He sends the temptor to tempt us, bringing a trial into our lives to expose our iniquity? Let’s first see that God does this. Look in your King James Strong’s Concordance under, “Evil,” and you will see that God sent evil to His own people more than 80 times. This was not always wrath, but often to correct His people. Correcting people is from His love.

    While the devil is our enemy, he is also used as a tool by God for our correction. This is best seen by putting 2Sam 24:1 and 1Chron 21:1 together. Here, we see God sending a deceiving evil spirit to deceive prophets, because they were not speaking His will. So we cannot call God a deceiver, but we can see He sends the deceiver.

    Now, let’s look at Job to see if we can see the same thing there. First, we have to know God knows already how things will work out when He sends a trial. He knew when He brot up Job’s righteousness to the devil’s attention, that the devil would ask Him to take down Job’s hedge of protection, and that this would put Job in a major trial. God did take down the hedge, but with limits of what the devil could do to Job.

    Job’s trial was not about his patience, nor so much about him not cursing God to His face, as many Bible teachers teach. If we have read that book, we can eleminate rereading Job’s friends’ comments, and focus on Job’s words alone. There, we see Job’s emotions bouncing from highs to lows. In one place, he is praising God in the highest, (I know my redeemer lives, etc;) and then we see him challenging God to come and answer why He is doing all this to him. Over and over.

    Job’s words show both self-pity and bitterness at his situation. After all, he had sacrificed lambs for protection of his children, and now God lets them be slain. He was telling God how unfair all those disasters were. This showed bitterness in his heart, tho he never spoke that outright. His complaint’s showed self-pity. God had offended Job, and it had exposed Job’s heart. That even the most righteous man on earth still had iniquity in himself.

    Later, we see Elihu speak truth to Job, convicting him. Then God came to face Job Himself, and put him in his place. This ended up with Job repenting, which God was after in the first place. Thus, God made Job even more righteous than he had before been. And he used the devil and a great trial to accomplish it.

    So the lesson we can learn from this for our day, is that trials are not necessarily for us to pray away the devil’s attack on us, but to go thru to see what God wants to show is in our hearts. And that like Jesus said, “offenses must come.” But if we look closely at them, we will see what those offenses exposed in us, and repent as Job did. Then we too, can become more righteous than before. DavWms

    • Remnant said

      Hi Dave,

      Well, you make a good case here, well explained. I see what you are saying. It is certainly something to chew on and ponder.

      I cannot judge Job (or Jonah–he is another one that comes to mind); under the right circumstances, any one of us would have reacted exactly the same (or worse).

      P.S. I once heard it said that the reason Jonah was so upset about God wanting him to preach repentance to Ninevah is because (being a prophet) he knew that in the future generation the Ninevites would masacre his own descendants. Apparently it is documented somewhere that this in fact did happen, that they later attacked the Jewish people and Jonah’s relatives were among those butchered. I dont know any more details on this, or sources.

  48. David L. Williams said

    Interesting thot, Remnant, that Jonah saw into the future that Ninevah, the major city of Babylon in that day, would one day masacre Israel. I also heard something I cannot back up, that the Ninevites worshiped a fish god. And that Jonah washed ashore in a fish made a special impression on them.

    I guess we all want to talk to someone in Heaven some day. I want to talk to Jonah and see how he turned out. Here he was, enjoying that God had miraculously quickly grown a vine over the booth he had made, to sit under in comfort to watch what would happen to Ninevah. Then God sent a worm to kill that vine and caused the weather to worsen to make him uncomfortable. God talked to Jonah as he stewed in anger. We are left without seeing whether Jonah repented. DavWms

    • Remnant said

      Yes, i have always wondered why God just left the story hanging, without a conclusion; it is one of the strangest portions of the Bible. In almost every other book we are given at least some sort of ending. Odd too how little we are given about Jonah’s beginning/origin. And how i would love to know more about Elijah’s early years; his youth, parents, etc.

  49. The Prodigal Son said

    Dear Remnant,
    Sorry I’ve taken so long to reply… There is never enough time to say ALL the things I would like to say !

    These things are hard to understand, I know… and even harder to believe ! We – as Christians, have a hard time in fathoming the wide extent and unbelievable breadth of the MOUNTAIN of lies we – as a whole – have been subjected to… We were born into this tangled web of lies… born slaves, yet we think we are free ! We have not been free since the ‘Jewish’ controlled, privately owned Federal Reserve & associated central banks in the E.U., Canada, Australia & New Zealand USURPED the dominion over the printing of the nation’s currency, and subjected our entire nation to the USURY condemned by God… but condoned in the Talmud – for Jews to practice upon the Gentiles (as they consider us, even though – according to the Word, it is Christians who are now the Israel of God)…

    You say that you are not too concerned about small changes to the Holy Bible… but I can assure you that the changes which I am speaking of are HUGE in that the repercussions of this are felt by the WHOLE WORLD ! Christians have been tricked into supporting the anti-Christ, all the while feeling good inside because they THINK they are supporting God’s chosen people !

    You said that you are “told” that the 1611 version is the “correct” Bible… First I would ask – told by whom ? Now I will tell you that I am almost positive that you do not have an authentic 1611 translation… It may be called that, but I assure you it has been revised from the ORIGINAL, original ! A reproduction with the ORIGINAL, original text – including the apocrypha, which were sandwiched between the Old & New Testaments, will cost you $2,000… while a TRUE original 1611 FROM 1611 will cost around $200,000… IF you can find one for sale !

    In the ORIGINAL 1611 KJV, you will not find the word ‘Jew’ ! In fact, even to this day – in ANY version – you will not find the word ‘Jew’ in the first 11 (eleven !) books in the Bible ! The first time that ‘Jews’
    are mentioned in the KJV of YOUR version (I am betting) is in 16:6 of II Kings… and this only in versions REVISED in the 18th century… in these verses
    we find that Israel was at war with the ‘Jews’ and the King of Syriah, drove those ‘Jews’ from the place of Elath… then (we are told) the Syrians went to Elath where (supposedly) they continued to dwell… (keep that in mind). Isn’t it strange that we can read over 400 pages of the Bible before we find a ‘Jew’ anywhere, yet those who today call themselves ‘Jews’ claim the first five books of the Bible as part of their ‘torah’ (which INCLUDES the Zohar and the Talmud) ?!?

    What 16:6 actually says (in the version I use… the Septuagint – in the 4th book of Kingdoms) is : “At that time, Rezin king of Syria returned Elath to Syria and drove the men of Judah from Elath. Then the EDOMITES went to Elath, where they continue to dwell to this day.”…

    Part of the problem here is that at the time of Jesus the word ‘Edom’ or ‘Edomite’ had been translated into Greek and Latin, becoming ‘Ioudaios’ and ‘Iudaeus’… meaning Judean or person living in Judea (Idumea was absorbed into Judea in approx. 130 B.C.). All versions after the VERY original 1611 translated Idumean – Judean into ‘Iewes’, then later ‘Jews’. The word ‘Jew’ does not mean Israel or Israelite !

    It is important to remember that the Children of Israel, Judahites and Judeans were not the same people as the Idumeans who were a mongrel Canaanite people descended from Cain and Esau/Edom (the dispossessed brother of Jacob/Israel) who were given over to the worship of Baal and Baphomet. The Pharisees admitted this when they told Jesus, ‘we were never in bondage’…

    In the original Masoretic texts and the VERY first edition of the KJV – a very clear distinction was made between these imposters – the despised and hated Idumeans (which spawned the Herod dynasty) – and Judeans AND Judahites. All later editions have simply merged the terms !
    (… to be cont.)

  50. The Prodigal Son said

    Great confusion has been caused by the word ‘Jew’, which did not appear in Scripture in any language until it was introduced into the KJV when it was revised (again) in approx. 1790. The Greek translation ‘Ioudaia’ became ‘Judea’ in English, while ‘Ioudaios’ could mean either ‘Judahite’ (one born of the tribe of Judah as in Rom 1;16, 2;9) OR ‘Judean’ (a residnt of Judea – regardless of race or religion as in Acts 13;6) depending on the context, became simply ‘Jew’.

    There is no Scriptural authority to regard the word ‘Jew’ as a synonymous term for ALL twelve tribes of Israel… Jesus,John, Luke and Paul ALWAYS make a sharp distinction between Israel and the Judean (Idumean) scribes and Pharisees, who killed the Lord Jesus.

    In Acts 10;22 of the KJV, the phrase “among all the nation of Jews.” should instead be “all the nations (races) among the Judeans.”, and demonstrates that there were many different races of people living in Judea. There were three different nationalities living in Cornelius’ house.

    In Acts 21:39, Paul describes himself as a ‘Jew’ (Judahite) of Tarsus, yet in Romans 11:1 he calls himself an Israelite of the tribe of Benjamin… then in Corinthians 9:20, he states that “to the Jews I became a Jew; that I might win Jews”… Does that make any sense ? Wanna know what it should say ? … “and to the JUDEANS I became as a JUDAHITE that I might win JUDAHITES”.

    Members of all twelve tribes lived in Judea, and a remnant of the ten northern tribes remained in Samaria. It is only because Jesus preached to these “lost sheep of Israel” in Galillee (of the Gentiles), in Samaria AND in Judea – that the ten tribes of Israel and the Judeans were called ‘Jew’ – in the sense that they were JUDEANS, that is dwellers in Judea. In no other sense is the word ‘Jew’ synonymous with the word ‘Israelite’. Isrealites are not ‘Jews’, and very, very few ‘Jews’ are either blood Israelites OR Judahites. Do not confuse ‘Jews’ with Israelites, or ‘Judaism’ with the Law and the Prophets ! HOW can it be that the majority of ‘Christians’ think that Jesus was a ‘Jew’ – when in fact, He was an Israelite of the tribe of Judah, who was persecuted to death by ‘Jews’ ? Jesus lived outside Judea in Nazareth, in Galillee of the Gentiles, he travelled to Judea incognito and had to tread warily BECAUSE of the ‘Jews’ !
    (…)

    • The Prodigal Son said

      Look :

      In John 8:33 these ‘Jews’ (Judeans) admit that they are NOT of Israel by stating that they “have never been in bondage to anyone”. They were Pharisees _ but they were of EDOMITE descent – NOT Israelite ! Jesus called them the children of the devil (8:44), and further declares that they are unbelievers because “you are not my sheep” (10:26). This in reference to the Edomites (Idumeans) or the children of Edom.

      According to I Maccabees 5:3-8, the nation of Edom ceased to be in 126 B.C. when John Hyrcanus of Judah completed the conquest began in 163 B.C. by Judas Maccabeus, at which point he forcibly converted the mongrelized Edomites to Judaism (Pharisaism). However, this was not the end of their story…

      In his ‘Antiquities of the Jews’, Josephus reports that the Edomites submitted to the Judahite’s way of living and were thereafter considered to be nothing other than ‘Jews’ (Judeans). Edom was absorbed into Judah; therefore an imposter branch of the tree of Judah became the only people remaining to fulfill the prophecies of Edom.

      The key to understanding the ‘who’s who?’ regarding Judah at the time of Christ on earth lies within the wisdom of Jerimiah 24. Also, here in John 8:31 is another example of what I am talking about… see the contrast between these translations. One is the truth… but the other is become a lie, because of what is inferred…

      “Then Jesus said to those Jews who believed Him…”

      OR

      “Then Jesus said to those JUDEANS who believed Him…”

      Judeans were composed of people from the tribe of Judah, AS WELL as ALL 11 other tribes of Israel. Judea also had a GENTILE population, which means that not all Judeans (‘Jews’) referenced in Scripture are actually ‘Jews’ as you (and many others) define them. NOR are any of the other 11 tribes Ever referred to as ‘Jews’, except in the context that they are residents of Judea (a place). How many times in contemporary editions of the Bible does it occur that when they use the word ‘Jew’ or ‘Jews’ – are they ACTUALLY referring to a ‘Judean’ or ‘Judeans’ ? (Who were NOT all ‘Jews’ as you define them.)

      In the verse above the Lord was distinguishing between the good and the bad figs of Jerimiah 24, and within the geographic context; I.E. – the bad figs would include NON-Judahites/NON-Israelites, as well as un-believing Judahites/Israelites… In other words, one could be a Judean (‘Jew’) WITHOUT being either a Judahite OR an Israelite.

      • Remnant said

        Interesting stuff Prodigal. Dont know anything to add or say here. Just wondering where Netanyahu would fall. I searched online to find out if he has any religious beliefs at all, after i heard he is not a PRACTICING Jew, but found nothing. Am wondering because i have read (though it hasnt been proven)that Netanyahu MIGHT try to have the Temple rebuilt. Probably just rumor at this point but it gave me pause.

  51. Remnant said

    Dear Prodigal,

    Ho hum. You really do seem to be getting yer undies in a bundle over trivial semantics.
    Have you read the book of Romans?

    Let me take you back to what matters: Jesus Christ shed His blood for our sins, was buried, and rose again the 3rd day, having been seen by more than 500 (or was it 5000? Then again, that doesnt matter either; fact is He WAS seen by multitudes). He is returning again soon, and will judge the living and the dead.

    Take care.

  52. The Prodigal Son said

    Ho Hum ? I spent over 3 hours typing to try to help you understand that this is MUCH more than merely semantics ! YOU have stated (erroneously) that you think the land (Palestine) belongs to the ‘Jews’. So tell me now – according to your ‘1611’, does the land belong to the ‘Jews’ ~ Judeans ? Or does it belong to the ‘Jews’ ~ Judahites ? Or perhaps to the Edomite Pharisee ‘Jews’ ? ~~~ ~~~ You’re right Remnant ! He will return to judge the living and the dead – judge them BASED ON THEIR FRUITS, NOT whether or not they bless or curse FALSE, BLACK Israel ! ~~~ ~~~ I think He will want to know why – some (many) did not care about (Him) the Palestinian children being murdered, because by not caring about them (the least)… they are not caring about Him, and aiding His killers… by happily paying for the white phosphorous munitions which took their lives… ~~~ ~~~ Anyhow, since you got nothing from my labours… I can only hope that perhaps somebody else who may read this will care for the truth. ~~~ Peace

    • Remnant said

      Sorry Prodigal, I dont mean to hurt your feelings or anything but I just cant go along with your line of thinking. You also have not answered 2 questions i asked you in the last two replies i made:
      1. Have you read Romans.
      2. Do you also deny the mass murders of “Jewish” children under both Herod and Pharoah?

      My King James refers to the people of Israel as Israelites. But Romans does say that not all who are of Israel are of Israel (Romans 9:6).

      It also says: BOAST NOT AGAINST THE BRANCHES. BUT IF THOU BOAST, THOU BEAREST NOT THE ROOT, BUT THE ROOT THEE. THOU WILT SAY THEN, THE BRANCHES WERE BROKEN OFF, THAT I MIGHT BE GRAFTED IN. 20 WELL; BECAUSE OF UNBELIEF THEY WERE BROKEN OFF, AND THOU STANDEST BY FAITH. BE NOT HIGHMINDED BUT FEAR:
      FOR IF GOD SPARED NOT THE NATURAL BRANCHES, TAKE HEED LEST HE ALSO SPARE NOT THEE.
      ROMANS 11: 18-21

      It also states:

      23 AND THEY ALSO, IF THEY ABIDE NOT STILL IN UNBELIEF, SHALL BE GRAFTED IN: FOR GOD IS ABLE TO GRAFF THEM IN AGAIN. –ROMANS 11: 23

      I would suggest reading ALL of Romans.

  53. The Prodigal Son said

    Remnant,

    Hi again – Spent some time at the lake enjoying the sun, again I am tardy with a reply to you… Better late than never though, right ?

    Hurt my feelings ? No… perhaps I get a little discouraged at the lack of comprehension, but I try not to take anything too personally. You say you can’t go along with my thinking, but this is not MY thinking. These things are verifiable for anyone with the inclination to take an honest look. That no one (Job?) has stepped in to validate what I have stated is puzzling to me at best. Perhaps NONE of you have cared to endeavor to investigate these matters on their own ? B.T.W. Remnant, if the Greek Old Testament (Septuagint LXX) was good enouph for Christ Himself… then why do you prefer your ‘1611’ (that isn’t a 1611) ?

    ~~~ ~~~ ~~~

    Responses :

    1. Yes I have read Romans – I have also understood it, and so have you ! I wonder if perhaps that is why you have quoted from chapter 11 of Romans… including verses 18 to 21 – then SKIPPING verse 22 – then resuming by quoting verse 23 ? Let’s place these verses in context then, INCLUDING verse 22…

    “Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God : on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off.”

    Now surely it has not escaped you dear Remnant that the key word here is ‘IF’ ! IF we continue in His goodness (‘Jews’ included) – we are good and receive God’s grace through our faith… but if we don’t _ we do NOT have the Father – We are cut off ! Stricken from the book !

    What these verses also tell us is that someone who was born into Old Israel was not AUTOMATICALLY stricken from the book (Exodus 32:33) – Rather, they have the very same opprotunity now afforded to ALL mankind. God has NOT cast off His children, He has adopted more children – ALL the children of the earth (IF they will have Him), and ALL are subject to the NEW everlasting Covenant, which fulfills ans supercedes the Old Covenant. In this understanding that there is no more Jew or Greek, ALL Israel will be saved, because we are become Israel… To us is given the gift of the New Birth, through the mystery of Baptism. Christ IS Abraham’s Seed to whom the promises were made !

    I would also like to include from the epistle to the Church of Rome, for grounding and contrast to what you are implying in your last post, Chapter 12 – verses 9-11, as well as verse 21…

    “Let love be without hypocrisy. Abhor what is evil. Cling to what is good. Be kindly affectionate to one another with brotherly love, in honor giving preference to one another… (vs. 21) – Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.”

    Love without hypocrisy ? This means if you claim to walk in love with Christ, then you must abhor what is evil and cling to what is good ! (Hint : Lies = BAD… Truth = GOOD) We also see Paul telling us to give preference to one another – meaning Christians (NOT to black ‘Israel’ !), and NOT to be overcome by evil… Yet America, Canada, Australia and the E.U. HAVE been overcome by evil ! Past tense ! If our governments are not TRULY Christian run, then why do so many today instead cling to the EVIL, and abhor the GOOD ?

    Now RE : verse 21… HOW are we supposed to overcome the evil with good ? Simple :

    “Do not be partakers with them, for you were once in darkness but now you are light in the Lord. Walk as children of light (for the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness, righteousness and truth), finding out what is acceptable to the Lord.
    And have no fellowship with the un-fruitful works of darkness, but rather expose them. For it is shameful even to speak of those things which are done by them in secret, but all things that are exposed are made manifest by the light, therfore He says, ‘Awake you who sleep, arise from the dead and Christ will give you light.’
    See then that you walk circumspectly, not as fools but as wise, redeeming the time, because the days are evil.”
    (Eph. 5:6-16)

    Now this is clear… telling us to be smart – and figure out the truth of matters, and whether or not that truth is acceptable to the Lord in our walk toward GOODNESS. If we see lies, evil, darkness – we must EXPOSE them with our light, which is the TRUTH in righteousness ! In this way, good overcomes evil – through the proper use of our Christ given light !

    • Remnant said

      Prodigal,

      I do not own a 1611 per se. I just have a KJ. About the Greek OT, KJ, etc. The King James IS the real Greek. There are just a few Bibles, true Bibles like the KJ, that were translated from the Greek Textus Receptus (also called Majority Text) manuscripts. All other “bibles” (i.e modern day so-called bibles), such as the NIV, NASB, NKJV, NRSV, NAB, REB, CEV, TEV, GNB, LIVING, PHILLIPS, NEW JERUSALEM BIBLE, & NEW CENTURY are all false/perverted “bibles’ translated from the Vaticanus 1% (also called Minority manuscripts). Two of these perverted manuscripts are known as the Aleph & B manuscripts. Linguistic scholars assert that B is comparative to the classical and Platonic Greek, NOT the Koine Grek of the New Testament. One “modern” translator named Nestle admitted he had to change his Greek text when using Aleph & B, to make it appear like Koine.
      (see “NEW AGE BIBLE VERSIONS, by G.A. RIPLINGER.)

      So, there is the true Greek and the fraud Greek. Which do you want? According to Riplinger, the “bible” translators Westcott and Hort (who translated from the Minority/Vaticanus were deeply involved in the occult, renounced Christ (!!!!!), and had close ties with one Madame Blavatsky (practicing witch/medium), Charles Darwin, the Ghost Club, Automatic Writing, Crystal Gazing, Carl Jung, cocaine addict, humanist & atheist Sigmund Freud, Levitation, Society for Psychic Research, Mesmerism, Mediumship, Hypnotism, Telepathy, Trance Medium, J.B. Lightfoot, Swedenborne Society, and more. The “modern bible” translators are all part of the New Age agenda moving the world towards a One World Religion. I strongly suggest you read Riplinger’s book, if you havent already. It is VERY researched, very methodical, very organized and objective. Riplinger shows the reader the truth from the scriptures themselves, how badly the “bibles” have been altered and perverted over time, with the goal of changing the meaning of CORE DOCTRINES of the faith (!!) This is NOT trivial stuff! Get your copy and you will be shocked as I was, for you will see it laid out right in front of your eyes, undeniable.

  54. The Prodigal Son said

    Response :

    2. Yes I do deny mass murders of ‘Jewish’ children !

    Under King Herod, the children were from the tribe of Judah…

    Under Pharoah, the children were Israelites/Hebrews…

    From now on I will try not to use the word ‘Jew’ or any of it’s variants. For the group today that now call themselves ‘Jews’ (who are not), I will use the term ‘Modern day Pharisees’, because the ‘Jews’ do NOT represent a race of people, but a RELIGION ! (Which was soundly denounced by Christ)

    • Remnant said

      Ok Prodigal, yea it would be easier to follow you perhaps if you use the term Modern Day Pharisee from now on. But what would you say about the “Jews” who read only the Torah, as opposed to the Talmud, and who will/may one day convert to Christ?

  55. The Prodigal Son said

    Remnant… ~~~ ~~~ Thanks for the reply again… I hope we can understand each other in the end, and be friends… Regardless, if we love Christ then we love each other… right ? ~~~ ~~~ Regarding those who you say study only ‘Torah’, I would ask you first how do you define ‘Torah’ ? Because even those who claim to be ‘Torah true’ are beholden to a different definition of ‘Torah’ than that which you apparently adhere to… (I am guessing you think that the ‘Torah’ consists of only the first five books of the Christian Bible – or what is known as the Pentateuch, the books of Moses…) ~~~ ~~~ Truth is, in the Judaism of today the word ‘Torah’ holds a similar meaning to that of ‘Catechism’, in that it encompasses ALL ‘religious’ studies… INCLUDING the Pentateuch, Talmud, Kaballah and Zohar, etc… ~~~ ~~~ The Judaism (Pharisaism) of today makes frequent reference to the study of ‘Torah’ – but what is kept quieter is that they adhere to the ‘written Torah’, AS WELL AS the ‘oral Torah’… (the Talmud)…

    • Remnant said

      Prodigal, I must confess that surprises me (if it is true; i dont know where you got the information and i dont know very much about Jews today). The Kaballah is very occult, and i would find it hard to believe that every Orthodox Jew practices it. But then again, i know not either way. I am no expert on Judaism as it is practiced today and i also have never been to Israel. I understand the Torah to be only the Law or OT books.

      Have you been to Israel? I think your knowledge would be useful and you could engage the people in discussions while giving them the Gospel.

  56. The Prodigal Son said

    If you visit a site called http://jewsagainstzionism.com , you will see that they are totally against Zionism, and the state of Israel… ~~~ ~~~ But why ? The answer lies in the ‘six million’… it is Kaballistic in origin, and deems that God requires a sacrifice by way of a burnt offering – Literally – a ‘holocaust’, of precisely SIX MILLION ‘Jews’ – before the ‘Jews’ can again safely gather and govern in the Holy Land WITHOUT incurring the wrath of God, Who has exiled them to the four corners of the earth… ~~~ ~~~ These ‘Torah True’ Jews KNOW that the ‘six million’ is a LIE, and therefore refuse to go anywhere mear present-day Palestine because of that fact ! ~~~ ~~~ The ONLY ‘Jews’ that I have ever heard of which do not adhere to (and in fact, had never heard of) the Talmud, Kaballah, Zohar… are the Ethiopian ‘Jews’ ! Now they are black, NOT white ! So if there are any REAL Israelites left today… they are at least the most believable candidates for sure, BUT the Law of Moses is impossible to keep !

  57. The Prodigal Son said

    Do you know of any ‘Jews’ (other than the Karaites and Samaritans, whose numbers are so small as to be negligible, with rdgard to any discussion of ‘Israel’ and worldwide political ‘Jewry’) – that do NOT adhere to the Traditions of Men (the Talmud) ? ~~~ ~~~ Because I do not… They are virtually non-existent.

    • Remnant said

      I dont know. I dont know any Jews, period. I have never KNOWINGLY met one. I may have worked for one when i was around 19, without knowing. He was a rich man whose last name ended in —-stein. He did not practice any religion at all though, far as i could tell.

      What are Karaites?

  58. The Prodigal Son said

    Remnant,

    How goes it ? I must tell you, from your screen handle ‘Remnant’… I had assumed that you were of ‘Jewish’ background. My apologies for the mis-understanding; I had been hoping I could glean some insight from you !

    Anyhow, to answer some of your queries… I have never been to ‘Israel’, and F.Y.I. prosyletizing to ‘Jews’ in ‘Israel’ is absolutelty illegal – punishable w/ up to 5 years jail time ! If I went to ‘Israel’, I would end up getting myself killed for sure… I would follow in the footsteps of Rachael Corrie, who was squashed by a Caterpillar dozer trying to stop the destruction of Palestinian homes… and die. Period.

    I AM saying that the ‘6 million’ has been around for a long time… WELL before WWII, and it has it’s origin in the Kabbalistic Zohar. The Zohar is the main collection of Kabbalistic works, with 23 books “expounding” on the ‘Torah’ (written AND oral…). The rabbis predicted a return to Israel – MINUS the ‘six million’ in 1948… and whaddyaknow – IT HAPPENED !

    “To determine the sacred relationship between the 600,000 Jewish souls and the six million, it is only neccessary to remember that six is the number of truth and represents completion (North, South, East, West, Up & Down…). It is “The power that links together the souls of Israel” – of which there are 600,000. When multiplied by ten, we arrive at six million.

    The number ten in the Jewish religion relates to Sefiroi (enumerations), by which Jews believe God manifests Himself in the physical and metaphysical planes. Ten is believed to be the number of divine projection… therefore, the 600,000 souls of Israel, which are pieces of the divine, when multiplied by the number of divine perfection – comes to SIX MILLION.”

    Believe it or not – the pioneering Kabbalists came up with ‘the six million’, the ‘prediction’ that ‘Israel’ would be restored to their land (MINUS six million) in 1948… even the ‘Big Bang’ theory has it’s origins in the Kabbalistic Zohar !

    Karaites are the ones you asked of : ‘Jews’ which do not study, or recognize the authority of the Rabbinical works of the Talmud, the Midrashim or the Zohar, etc. There are only 30,000 Karaite Jews WORLDWIDE, out of the approx. 16 million ‘Jews’ in existence today… Interestingly, the Karaites and the Ethiopians (and Samaritans ?), have got to be close to 144,000 in number ! ALL the rest of worlwide ‘Jewry’ today subscribe to the Talmud, which are the ‘Traditions of Men’… which make the commandments of God of no effect !

    ~~~ ~~~

    Modern Day Pharisaism is based upon :

    1) Tanakh – WRITTEN Torah

    2) Mishnah – ORAL Torah

    3) Gemara – Rabbinical commentaries on the Mishnah (Mishnah + Gemara = the Talmud)

    4) Midrashim – Anecdotal stories which expand on written OR oral Torah

    5) Kaballah – Babylonian mysticism, the primary body of which is known as the Zohar

    … B.T.W., did you know the Talmud says that the Romans murdered 40 BILLION ‘Jews’ ? That there was so much blood,that it created a tidal wave (of blood), which carried along boulders and stained the ocean four miles out… Then it says the Romans took 64 million Jewish childern, rolled them up in Torah scrolls and BURNED THEM ALIVE !

  59. The Prodigal Son said

    (correction…) ~~~ ~~~ ~~~ After rereading the verse in question, w/ a proper understanding of the units which are called ‘multitudes’ – and re-crunching the math myself, I believe the correct # is 40 MILLION – not billion… ~~~ ~~~ ~~~ Regardless, the point is that either figure is a ridiculous, impossible lie, just like the figure of 6 million put forth by the ‘Jews’ in WWI… – AND WWII !

  60. Remnant said

    Hi Prodigal.

    Greetings. I hope all is well with you. I wish we could simply share email addresses and make our discussion easier but then it would be public.

    Lol, no, i am not Jewish (least as far as i know). When it comes to the word “Remnant” i think of the fact that not everyone who calls themselves “Christian” is really Christian, anymore than all “Jews” are Jews. Only a very small portion of what calls itself “Christian” in this country is actually saved. Most of the pastors of mainline denominations are going to Hell, just for starters.

    I dont know if that is true that it is a crime to proselytize in Israel. There are many Christian ministries and missionaries over there. Zvi (of foi.org ministries) lives there and has witnessed the gospel valiantly for years. He has never been arrested, although he has peeved a lot of rabbis, neighbors, and such. Also, i believe that 7 is actually the number the Jews regard as the number of perfection or completion. But who am i to know what the Talmud says. You are far more educated on that topic than I am. I have only read about the Rothschild family and related articles (fascinating reading, and not to be done before bed).

    Without significant proof from you, I still believe that 6 Million Jews were murdered during the Holocaust. Knowing that Hitler and the Nazis were demon-possessed madmen deeply involved in the occult, I dont find that hard to believe at all, and am unsure why you do. I don’t know how many the Romans murdered during their attack in 70 A.D. and other events, so i cant comment. The fact is, they remain the most hated group of people on the face of the earth. I don’t feel sorry for Palestinians as you do; the choose their leadership.

  61. Pete said

    Hi folks. Interesting discussion here. I for a time focused on demons way too much and got caught up in some unscriptual practices of deliverance, most of which did not work. Some did though and I was shown the power of God working on this earth to rid people of devils. But I had not yet learned the link between obedience and the power of God working in our lives. THe fervent prayer of a man practicing righteousness avails itself much. I myself have been freed of very many demons and they really are nothing to worry about if we operate with a true faith in God. Take every thought captive that exalts itself against the Word (demons are those thoughts). James said it best. Submit to God (love him with your whole heart, surrender), resist the devil (demons will always be there to tempt us into sin if we have an impure heart) and the devil will then flee. This works. We do not need to go to some deliverance minister, if we truly love God and turn fully towards him in repentance, the Holy Spirit will come and the demon or weakness in our flesh or both will be exposed by the light of the truth. I have found it is impossible to stay clean of demons if the person does not love God with a pure heart. The idols in their hearts, create the strongholds that allow demons to come right back or never leave in the first place. The Holy Spirit does not come if there is no repentance and if there is true repentance, you will be submitted to the Lord and you will resist the devil out of love for Christ, the demons will then leave you and the peace that transcends all understanding will flow from your heart. THose willfully practicing sin separate themselves from God, and the Lord removes His hedge of protection and sends the demons in as part of his rebuke and chastisement. That is right, God uses demons to accomplish His good purposes, which is to call us to repentance and be led by His Spirit 100%. Anyone sharing their heart with Jesus and idols is ripe for the demonic and the God sent delusion. This is a complicated topic, beyond a comment box to address, but that is my two cents and my own personal experience. I tell demons to go in Jesus name and if they do not go, I know there is some work to be done to first tear down idols and bring the person to repentance that will always stand in the way of true deliverance. The Lord will deliver his people but we must be his people in truth not just from our lips.

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