Jesus Christ Is Lord

That every knee should bow and every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father!

Regarding The Online Discernment Ministries

Posted by Job on March 21, 2009

Hello Fellow Laborers In Jesus Christ:

A lot of you may have noticed that I have gotten extremely slack in making new posts, approving comments, and responding to emails these past months. I am extremely sorry, and wish you to know that there are two reasons for this. The first is that for the past several months, I have been dealing with a number of personal, family, and financial challenges and changes that, while not posing real problems for myself and my family (quite the contrary, God has been very good to my family and I in ways that you cannot imagine!) have placed great demands on my time, so much so that I have actually considered ending this site, or at the very least placing it on long term hiatus, as it does look like these issues are going to persist for the time being. 

Now that is the main reason, but there are others. Even though I have not been actively working on Jesus Christology for some time, it has been often on my mind and in my prayers, as have been the many people that have participated in its discussions. Ironically, the time that I have been forced to spend away from Jesus Christology has given me the opportunity to pray and reflect on precisely what I have been doing since I went online in February 2007 (initially by importing content created for my prior Heal The Land website – which, incidentally, has been unfairly taken offline by the Bravehost people) and have wondered about my actions and their effectiveness. I must be honest, I have always intended to honor and promote Jesus Christ with my work, but good intentions are not enough. God commands to be served the way God desires to be served, not the way that man chooses to serve Him. So when I consider the doctrines that I have promoted that I no longer subscribe to; the pastors and ministries that I promoted that I can no longer in good conscience support, and in particular the angry, confrontational, at times self – flagellating posture that I maintained for the first year or so, my conclusion is that while it probably made for entertaining reading and discussions, but what good did it do, really? How did it uplift Jesus Christ? 

I am going to deal specifically with the fact that a great deal of my content came directly from various online discernment ministries, and that I actually made Jesus Christology (and its predecessor, Heal The Land With Spiritual Warfare) a “part time” online discernment ministry. Now online discernment ministries do great work and have their place. As a matter of fact, I am deeply indebted to a particular online discernment ministry for planting the seed that caused me to abandon the false prosperity doctrine/Word of Faith movements, and Christians do need to be at work warning people and defending the faith against wolves in sheep’s clothing moving about the church.

However, I was very disturbed to find out that the very online discernment ministry that led me to the tip of the iceberg of spiritual corruption with one of their posts had taken up the practice of denouncing Christian pastors that choose to affiliate themselves with Barack HUSSEIN Obama. Now of course, no Christian pastor should have anything to do with this Obama person, this online discernment ministry made an excellent Biblical case why, so that wasn’t the problem. The problem is that in the years that I have frequented this ministry, before I even went up with Jesus Christology/Heal The Land With Spiritual Warfare, I have never ONCE seen them criticize a single of the many pastors for affiliating themselves with and supporting the wickedness of George W. Bush, Ronald Reagan, John McCain and similar. If these people cannot “discern” (or more likely refuse to be honest enough to acknowledge) the wickedness of the bunch on the “conservative” side of the ideological and political aisle merely by viewing their deeds and who they associate with and hold the religious right to the same standards as everybody else, what gives them the right, the spiritual standing and authority, to stand in judgment of anybody else? Is it not far better to serve the Lord ins simple submission and silence?

I am not merely tilting at windmills here, but I am going by the example that was set by who can be considered (my me at least!) the forerunner of the modern discernment minister, one Charles Spurgeon. While Spurgeon was pastoring in England, the Protestant church there was on its rapid and determined path into liberal apostasy, and Spurgeon saw it happening. Yet Spurgeon held his tongue and pen for years, waiting to address the issue at the right time and in the appropriate manner. But when Spurgeon finally did act, it was in a wise, reasoned, measured, prudent, truthful, and Biblical manner by addressing what he called “the Down – Grade controversy” in a series of sermons, and also in his publication The Sword and the Trowel. Now of course, Spurgeon’s actions were very controversial, and he was hit with many of the same accusations that dog the various discernment ministries today. Yet Spurgeon was much less impeachable, much more defensible, than the modern efforts because his manner of dealing with the apostates and heretics of his time was much more reasoned, mature, responsible, and ultimately Biblical. How ironic, then, that Spurgeon is a favorite of the very online discernment ministry that I am speaking of. 

What we can perhaps learn from Spurgeon’s example is how the fight for faith, how the contending for the faith once delivered to the saints, how giving a defense/apology for the faith will be done. In short, it should be done facing the simple reality that most people aren’t going to listen. The words are going to fall on hard hearts and deaf ears because those who possess these hearts and ears are not born again Christians, but sinners. We know from the clear witness of the Bible and of history that from the time of Old Testament Israel in the past until the time that Jesus Christ returns in the future, most of the people that have referred to themselves as the children of YHWH are only so in name only, which means that they are not in truth.

As a result, they have no true interest in spiritual things, in sound doctrine and in obedience to the commandments of Jesus Christ as expressed in the Bible. Instead, their only interest is being considered righteous according to the standards of the Christian mainstream, which is determined by viewing Christianity in the context of what has been deemed acceptable for Christians by the larger culture. Whether you are a predestinarian who believes that the reason for this is that these people have not been elected (which is my current position) or a free will Christian who believe that these people have rejected Jesus Christ (which was my previous position) the end result is the same. 

So no matter how often we talk about Rick Warren, Pat Robertson, Todd Bentley, T.D. Jakes, Paula White, Paul Crouch, Billy Graham, Robert Schuller, Tim LaHaye, James Dobson, ecumenism with Roman Catholics, the emergent church etc. it isn’t going to change hearts. The only thing that will change hearts is the gospel, the message of Jesus Christ and Him crucified and raised from the dead. Of course, heresies and heretics should be discussed, for they certainly are discussed in the Bible, and of course we should use these examples and others to guide people away from the many false gospels to the one true gospel of the hard road that leads to the strait gate. But it should be done as part of the full gospel message, taking its appropriate place in bringing sinners to faith in Jesus Christ and equipping those who already believe to walk in the faith of Jesus Christ. If it is done for any other reason and in any other context, then it is just a tinkling cymbal of 1 Corinthians 13, at best the work of someone sincere but unbalanced and misguided and at worst something that is just as capable of being a source of error.

Above all, we honestly do need to know our place. We need to act in faith; to trust God. We must stop trying to help God out, to do His job for Him. Instead, we must out of faith and submission stand back and allow God the Son and God the Holy Spirit to do the job of building the church and defending it. In the course of doing so, we will not be hindered or distracted from doing our own jobs by trying to do the job that only God can do.

In closing, allow me to mention that one movie that I love is the Jesus Christ movie that I acquired for my kids, “The Miracle Maker.” (I don’t love the fact that this movie’s rights are owned by Mel Gibson’s production company, but as I have not discovered anything ascriptural in it, it remains in my possession, unlike the completely anti-scriptural “The Passion of the Christ”, which I do not own and never will.) In it, the movie contains a simple explanation of Christ’s commandment to “build your house on the rock” by telling us “take the hard way, not the easy way.” Presenting the full, true, gospel through the Christ – centered exegesis, exposition, and application of scripture is extremely hard. Talking about the lies that Kenneth Copeland said last week, is saying this week, and unless he repents will say next week is comparatively easy. I propose that in order to be a true online discernment ministry, it has to be built upon the rock and do the hard work as described in 2 Timothy 4:5

But watch thou in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, make full proof of thy ministry.

Thank you.

67 Responses to “Regarding The Online Discernment Ministries”

  1. Remnant said

    Oh no, please don’t take your site offline. It is such an excellant website. And where else hardly can one go to find likeminded Christians, especially in this day and age? Take some time off if you must, get your rest, then come back to it. This site trumps most other “Christian” sites.

  2. The Prodigal Son said

    Job… ~~~ ~~~ I must agree w/ Remnant. Your site is one of the best mainly because it is obvious that you have no agenda… no ulterior motives… and because you ARE genuinely contending for the faith, not just pretending – in order to to gain approval for yourself. ~~~ ~~~ I also appreciate your policy of free speech and discussion (even when you disagree), as opposed to the policy of instant censorship (which is the norm)… I also think you greatly underestimate the number of people which you have reached, and helped, and whose lives YOUR work has had a positive impact on. I personally very much appreciate all the love & effort you have put into this site… and I hope you continue ! So THANKS, Job, and may Christ guide your search for the true faith that He left us ! ~~~ ~~~ … P.S. – What exactly do you have against Mel Gibson, and ‘The Passion’ ?

    • P.S. – What exactly do you have against Mel Gibson, and ‘The Passion’ ?

      Search this site and you’ll find the answer.

      • The Prodigal Son said

        Thanks, I.C. … ~~~ ~~~ First, I agree w/ John in that I prefer the old comments format better… where’s the new comment ? Could be anywhere ! ~~~ ~~~ Second, I have searched ‘Mel Gibson’, and all I found were more obscure references to ‘anti-semetism’ and un-referenced references to The Passion & it’s ‘abiblical’ nature… (yet, would he sacrifice his career for Christ ? Gibson has !) ~~~ ~~~ Anyhow, I was hoping Job might grace me w/ a response, rather than simply ignore me… I don’t think Job really understands just how manipulated Christianity IS in America… those symbols on the dollar bill, which include the Kaballistic ‘all-seeing eye’ & also – what I believe to be the mark of the beast… the so-called ‘star of David’ [RAIPHAN] – (6 pointed star w/ 6 lines & a hexagram. Almost the entire world has accepted a dollar into their right hand, no ?), these are Jewish symbols ! Is that ‘anti-semetic ? Or is it the truth, which no one cares to face ? ~~~ ~~~ Job ?

        • The statements Job made in this post already should let you understand he’s not trying to “ignore” anyone. Rather he’s lamented not being able to address everyone as much as he might desire. You and plenty of others would like to have Job respond to their question(s), but sorry, he’s got a family to tend to, he’s already made that much clear.

          I’m not going to debate with you in areas others have already addressed with you. But regarding Gibson and his “Passion” movie. It seems you might not have done much research into the Roman Catholic emphasis on showing Christ as only a helpless infant or scourged man. Either way, always showing Jesus as one who is in roles where He appears weak. I know Gibson does not claim to be under modern Roman Catholicism, but his doctrine is a branch of it. The way Roman Catholicism often depicts Christ, no wonder they feel they must pray to Mary and others, they never fully express Christ as present ruling Lord and ONLY means to salvation. The way they depict Christ, He’s a man to pity rather than revere. Keep in mind, in Roman Catholicism, the MASS, where they enact crucifying Christ repeatedly is the pinnacle of their “worship”.

        • Job said

          The Prodigal Son:

          A very reputable Christian site made the case that only 20% of the material in “The Passion of the Christ” was scriptural. The other 80% was either Roman Catholic tradition or the “visions” from the mystic Catherine Emmerich. I was absolutely amazed at all of the sola scriptura Christians who fully and vigorously embraced this movie despite knowing that its content was Roman Catholic tradition. They did so because embracing the movie was a political and cultural statement, the whole “traditional western American family values” thing. Now as for those folks who embraced “The Passion of the Christ” in ignorance, well they did it in ignorance. But the people who knew better and embraced and defended this movie anyway, well they will stand before this same Jesus Christ that this movie defamed and misrepresented, creating a false idol for men to worship that was not Jesus Christ at all, on judgment day. I hope and pray that they repent of their deeds. But read about “Saint Catherine Emmerich” below.

          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anne_Catherine_Emmerich

  3. John Kaniecki said

    Job,

    Hi hope you are well.

    There are many ways to evangelize. Paul became all things to all men. To the Jews he used the Law to prove Christ to the Greeks on Mars Hill he went into philosophy.

    Do not judge where God has led you and what he has led you to do. This site has been a blessing to me and many others. It is a place to exchange ideas adn the gospel. These ideas are seeds. Seeds are what the gospel are. Luke 8:11.

    You see Job the thing about seeds is that they don’t grow into fruit producing plants over night. Instead it may take years to develop.

    Perhaps if it could lift your burden you could have others help write your entries.

    Love,
    Your friend,

    John

  4. Job, I think you know I understand some of what you’re dealing with in some ways others may not. While I’m not facing the exact same situation as you, I do know how it is running a blog that tries to shine light in dark places. For each of our own reasons, you, me and some others have had a bit of a slowdown in posts. In my own case I know Lord willing I’m still going on with more in the future.

    I will say this to you though, because it’s what I’ve considered I would do if I ever faced things to a degree that you’re at right now. If I felt my duties to home and family meant I pretty much had to stop with the blog indefinitely, I’d put the blog into an “archived” type of mode. I’m using “archived” as a term, it’s not an actual setting in our blog software. Basically, I’d turn off the ability for anyone to comment, removing all concerns about any discussions needing administrative involvement. I’d leave all posts, for the benefit of others who may be searching. I don’t remove any of my old posts, I feel, that anyone reading old versus new posts might see a gradual progression, if the Lord wills. Any old posts I strongly disagree with and I’m aware of, I’ve added an update to them, to note my change in position. (Even added links in older posts I disagree with to newer posts, to show exactly where in the scriptures the Lord has led me to see things differently.)

    If you have duties at home that you must tend to, by all means manage your own house FIRST. But I’m sure you’ve posted something good in all that is here and it should remain for the good of others. If there are any issues you might have with keeping things online that you have not disclosed here and being a fellow blogger I know what some other concerns are, please contact me, or even express those here openly because you never know who might be willing to assist.

    • Job said

      Thanks brother in Christ. I am working on managing my own house first, something that I have been terrible at doing for most of my life but am finally making a priority! As we speak, doors are opening and things are happening, but it is going to take time. I do have one testimony though: for the first time since my freshman year at FAMU, I am free of credit card debt!

  5. theoldadam said

    Godspeed to you!

    The great thing about our Lord is that He will use you in whatever you do and wherever you do it.

    His Grace and Peace be with you!

    – Steve M.

  6. pjmiller said

    Hi Job…

    Like many others i consider your blog a blessing: biblically balanced. Sadly the ‘balance’ is left out of many Christian blogs and discernment websites. Its why i don’t link to very many anymore.

    quote…

    However, I was very disturbed to find out that the very online discernment ministry that led me to the tip of the iceberg of spiritual corruption with one of their posts had taken up the practice of denouncing Christian pastors that choose to affiliate themselves with Barack HUSSEIN Obama. Now of course, no Christian pastor should have anything to do with this Obama person, this online discernment ministry made an excellent Biblical case why, so that wasn’t the problem. The problem is that in the years that I have frequented this ministry, before I even went up with Jesus Christology/Heal The Land With Spiritual Warfare, I have never ONCE seen them criticize a single of the many pastors for affiliating themselves with and supporting the wickedness of George W. Bush, Ronald Reagan, John McCain and similar.

    If these people cannot “discern” (or more likely refuse to be honest enough to acknowledge) the wickedness of the bunch on the “conservative” side of the ideological and political aisle merely by viewing their deeds and who they associate with and hold the religious right to the same standards as everybody else, what gives them the right, the spiritual standing and authority, to stand in judgment of anybody else? Is it not far better to serve the Lord ins simple submission and silence?

    end quote..

    Job, i’ve come to believe its not so much a lack of discernment as it is allowing ones personal (political) agenda to override biblical discernment. I may be wrong…perhaps the discernment vanishes when its overridden time and again for personal agendas..

    I’m also beginning to realize its more an American Christianity/Church thing.But you probably know thats how i see it for i harp on it constantly on my own blog. LOL

    I pray you will continue in the work and ministry God first laid upon your heart when starting to blog. God has had to remind me recently that i began blogging to write about my journey with Him. To post the things He was pointing out or bringing to my attention. That includes the good, bad, and sometimes, even controversial. God has always challenged me…and my hope is when im challenged (by any topic) it may challenge someone else.

    Its how we discover truth Job. By looking at subjects/topics and comparing the common Christian consensus today, with what the bible says on the topic.

    You’ve always done that brother–and that IS The Gospel!

    your sister, pj

  7. The Prodigal Son said

    Job…
    Thanks for your reply. It’s good to see you posting again… May God send you the strength you need to deal w/ your issues and carry on w/ God’s issues.
    I went to the page you provided on the Jewish run Wikipedia (propagator and parrot of the ‘official’ story on every topic known to man)… and the first thing I noticed was “The neutrality of this article is in dispute.”. I’m sure you realize that Wikipedia has a definite bias and is obviously subject to administrative editing processes.
    The fact is Gibson’s MAIN sources for his movie were the Gospels. The main points – the important facts are there. But the Gospels leave many chronilogical gaps to be filled in order to make an entire movie in the time frame he was working within.
    Sadly, after the reformation many rejected ALL tradition as Roman Catholic in origin… when in fact the Roman Church had it’s own origins in the one, original Church of the New Testament… the Orthodox Church. When the Roman Church seperated from the creeds of the Bride of Christ, they became no Church at all ! Their ongoing errors, and unilateral changes to a creed which they had no authority to change have proven DISASTROUS for Europe and the West. Almost ALL ‘Christians’ in the West have no idea what it REALLY means to be a true Christian. It has been stolen from them, and no one notices missing what they’ve never had… We never had it, and our parents never had it,and or parents parents likewise were gone astray.
    Mel Gibson calls himself a ‘Traditional’ Catholic, which means he has rejected the Vatican II, which is a good start, but like many – he is SEARCHING for the truth, which clearly we are not recieving through the mainstream channels. Gibson, having been immersed in Hollywood – has realized the ugly truth that is : there is an active, ongoing WAR on Christianity. America is the main frontline in this battle, and THEY are winning !
    Many who have embraced ‘The Passion’ did so because they too see what Gibson sees : a need to make a stand, and choose your side… because you will love one and you will hate the other. Both masters cannot be served. All the ‘sola scriptura’ people whom you are so disappointed in for standing behind Gibson, and The Passion – when the Jews were trying to have it banned as ‘anti-semetic ‘have chosen their side ! Are they too ‘anti-semetic’ or are they PRO-CHRIST ? St. Paul declared the Jews to be “enemies of the Gospel”… this dogma cannot be changed, and the ‘politically correct’ ignorance of the subject actually rejects Christ’s Atonement for ALL MANKIND – Jews included !
    …Please tell me, how does Gibson’s movie ‘defame’ Jesus the Christ ?

    • Mel Gibson calls himself a ‘Traditional’ Catholic, which means he has rejected the Vatican II, which is a good start…

      Or so you assume. Neither Vatican II or Gibson’s so-called “Traditional Catholic” doctrinal stance are good. Both are shades of righteousness by works.

      Any who are without Christ IN TRUTH and trying to save themselves through works is an enemy of the One True God, who is only reached by grace through faith in the Lord Jesus.

      1 Corinthians 5:6 (New American Standard Bible)

      6 Your boasting is not good Do you not know that a little leaven leavens the whole lump of dough?

      You’re defending idolaters, who peddle in the Lord’s Name. They are spreading wayward teachings, to lead many to their heretical Mass. Their repeated efforts to put Christ on the cross again and to an open shame.

      God also had Paul to write:
      Romans 11:28-32 (New American Standard Bible)

      28 From the standpoint of the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but from the standpoint of God’s choice they are beloved for the sake of the fathers;

      29 for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

      30 For just as you once were disobedient to God, but now have been shown mercy because of their disobedience,

      31 so these also now have been disobedient, that because of the mercy shown to you they also may now be shown mercy.

      32 For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all.

      The final remnant of their seed will come to knowledge of the truth, once the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. All have proven themselves enemies of God in need of grace and mercy. And any today who are saved were once enemies of God as well.

  8. The Prodigal Son said

    … “But someone will say, ‘You have faith and I have works.’ Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. You believe in the one true God. You do well. Even the demons believe – and tremble ! But do you want to know, O foolish man that faith without works is dead ?”
    – James 2:18-20.
    I.C, Paul, particularly in Romans 4 DID NOT condemn ALL works, but ‘dead works’ or ‘works of the flesh’ These are works that are good in & of themselves – such as donating to a charity or feeding the poor – BUT are done to call attention and glory to ones self. Selfish motivation for vainglory translates good works into dead works. The answer, of course is not to refrain from good works – giving and helping others in need… but to completely abstain from glorifying ones self through them.
    ‘Living works’, however are both good in nature AND done for the glory of God – not man… Paul said, “For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we walk in them.”
    Ephesians 1:10
    He also said that if we are unified with Christ, and cleansed of our past, we shall become “a vessel for honor, sanctified and useful to the master, prepared for every good work.”
    II Timothy 2:21
    He tells the Corinthians, “Therefore my fellow brethren, be steadfast, immovable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, knowing that your labor is not in vain in the Lord.
    I Cor. 15:58
    Now, re: I Cor. 5:6… In Exodus the Israelites were to remove the leaven from thier houses in anticipation of Passover. Christ is our Passover… our Paschal Lamb. If we have been baptized, we are one with God and our whole life is deliverance from evil, forever. Because a PROPER life in Christ includes keeping the feast (5:8) – Passover fulfilled in the Eucharist, the old leaven of malice & wickedness must be removed from us – in ourselves at home and in the Church.
    Romans 11:28 is Paul reminding the Romans – mostly Gentiles – that they are not superior to the Jews (or vice-versa), in that Jews and Gentiles were/are disobedient, and BOTH groups may be saved from the curse of death ONLY through Jesus Christ – by the mercy of God. Refer to 11:25-27, which tells us how a remnant of Jews are being united to the Gentiles to form the NEW Israel of God, whom St. Paul identified as all those in Christ Jesus in Galatians. The Deliverer out of Zion, of course – is Jesus the Christ ! The Covenant to take away thier sins, of course – is the New Covenant, and that Covenant requires faith in Christ for salvation from the father… for Jesus is the only way now. The ONLY way !

    • Prodigal Son, tell us, what must one do to be saved?

      I feel certainly a Christian will strive to do good as they seek to please the Lord. However, works do not save and so no man has any foundation from which to boast based off works, Ephesians 2:8-9. Please keep something in mind, I’m citing Paul who was speaking to Gentiles, while you’re citing James who was speaking to converted Jews. That’s not to dismiss the words of James, but to provide proper context. The Gospel as delivered to the Gentiles is a message of salvation by grace through faith, that is all that Gentiles were ever told in letters written directly to Gentile churches. Certainly, we will seek to cast out leaven and were instructed to, however our works are not what save us. A true convert will continue to strive to do good, because the Holy Spirit is within them. Works are the by-product, but not what saves a man.

      Now the Roman Catholic, both modern Roman Catholic and “Traditional” claim that there are a certain set of fixed actions that must be performed in order for one to be saved. That it starts from birth and salvation is increased with certain specific actions and that it even has a decrease with certain actions they’ve cited as sin. They teach that this scale of good and bad works in their prescribed set of actions might get the most perfect of individuals into Heaven immediately upon physical death, but more likely because of certain sins end up in a fictitious place they’ve invented called “purgatory”. This leaves Romanism in all its branches, on a foundation of WORKS, not Christ. Seeking salvation in self, not Christ. Seeking to please and repent to men called “Father” not Christ. Seeking repeatedly to bring Christ down and crucify Him as part of ritual, which they deem as a work that literally sucks in more “salvation” if done as they prescribe. A salvation they claim is dispensed not by Christ alone, but by the “Jesus” they bring down to repeatedly crucify and by Mary, who they feel suffered for their sins and they pray to her and also other dead people they’ve made into idols. There is no true Christ in Romanism, just works and idols.

      There are Only Two Religions and Romanism is the wrong one!

  9. theoldadam said

    I.C.,

    What do we do to be saved?

    Nothing. Absolutely nothing.

    If there was just one little thing left for us to do, then that cross would have been in vain.

    Thanks!

    – Steve M.

  10. David L. Williams said

    As long as people do not recognize that “salvation” was spoken of in three tenses in the NT, there will forever be ongoing differences of opinions re; works. The three tenses follow:

    1) Salvation as in, “saved.” This requires only believing, faith that Jesus is who He said He is,(personal Savior,) plus no more. This is being counted as righteous, merely by believing Him.
    2) Salvation as in, “being saved.” This is a process of sanctification, but is not an “earning” of salvation by works. Rather, it is that works will be a by-product of sanctification.
    3) Salvation as in, “will be saved” This one is becoming like Him when we see Him as He is. This one is self-explanitory.

    None of these constitutes a religion, but rather, a relationship. DavWms

  11. One need only go to the prayer request section to see the great work you’ve started. I noticed over the past year many men and women who have come forth to say that were blessed to find this sites section, and daily requests come in for many different reasons.
    I ask you brother to consider this. If not you, then who will stand up for the truth of God’ Word? If not now, then when?
    God has placed this burden upon you to reach these people. You don’t need a church pulpit. The sick are outside the true church. Many of these saints didn’t know where to turn when they found your site, and the proven responses that gave them direction.

    Look at some of them:

    victoria meadows said
    April 14, 2008 at 4:29 pm
    me & my husband r both attacked in our sleep. first its me then its him. totally paralized sometimes hard 2 breathe. he intices them which i told him it was the dumbest thind 2 do. our dog even acknowledges it is there. my husband seen it said it had green eyes. only thing ive seen is a hand coming over the side of my bed @ me .looked like a human hand but very far from it. all i know to is pray like ive never prayed before. sometimes it works sometimes it dosent. do you have any suggestions

    Sally said
    July 8, 2008 at 12:10 pm
    I greet you all in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. I have been having a serious problem and i would like you to pray for me. I have been having problems with all the jobs that i have been having in my life.Anytime i get i job i get fired after about one year. Now i am trying to get a job but it is not forthcoming.

    Debbie said
    July 31, 2008 at 11:05 am
    Pleas pray and stand in agree with me that my son Michael will get the Job in taxes that he is asking for and when he gets it, He will have favor with his boss in the job.

    Daniel said
    July 31, 2008 at 11:34 pm
    Pray for my ex-wife Rhonda to repent of her lies, dishonesty, and
    Adulteries, and for her to Repent and recieve Salvation, and for her
    to return to her marriage vows she made with I, Daniel ; and to
    Honor and keep them. And for our marriage to be healed and restored Today

    These are just a few who’ve come here because of the passion God placed in your heart to reach the lost.
    I’m going to be very up front with this next statement. Job! It ain’t about you. It is not about the hardship you face when attacked from those outside. Eveytime you endure hardship, you bring God glory. Everytime you stand when you have no reason too, other than sheer love for God and a desire to do when all looks hopeless, you bring Him honor; proving His Word is true. This is what it’s all about, and what the enemy is seeking to bring an end to. So the choice is your’s. But I believe God’s desire for you is; having done all to stand, stand therefore.

  12. naturalsystah said

    Job,

    I love this blog, it really is a breath of fresh air. Like yourself, I haven’t been able to blog as often as I’d like recently, and I’ve also been reflecting on the purpose of blogging.

    I’d like to encourage you as you encourage me – keep working on glorifying God, always seeking and trusting in Him.

    Kind regards,
    NS

    PS – I also love “The Miracle Maker”!

    • Job said

      Thanks! By the grace of God I will continue blogging, and I pray that God permits you to do so as well. I am giving much consideration to PJ Miller’s advice that I return to my original purpose for the blog, which was discussing prayer, miracles, evangelism, and spiritual warfare/deliverance.

  13. John Kaniecki said

    Job,

    Hi hope you are well.

    I think the major thing that detracts from the blog is the exposing of the so called ‘pulpit pimps’.

    Let me say I certainly consider them apostate. Yet they have their defenders who come here. It may be best to let them conduct their evil on their own and ignore them. That way we would be more unified. Also if we stick to doctrinal issues we can better help those people.

    My new job is on its second week and I enjoy it very much. God has placed me among good Christian people.

    Love,

    John

  14. Job said

    John K:

    Thank God for your job!

    “I think the major thing that detracts from the blog is the exposing of the so called ‘pulpit pimps’.”

    I see your point. But I strive to create a Biblical site (I even have a couple of poems because the Bible contains them!) and the Bible certainly dedicates its share of time to opposing heresies and heretics. For example: the warning to churches in Revelation wasn’t just about the wealthy lukewarm Laodiceans, but it also mentioned the Nicolataines, the Balaamites, and the followers of Jezebel, and what was going to happen to them. Acts called out Simon Magus by name, and the Pauline epistles called out opponents to the gospel by name as well. The challenge is doing it the right way.

  15. The Prodigal Son said

    … I.C.
    I have already quoted to you the appropriate scriptures to show show you that justification by faith ALONE is not Biblical…
    Why do you believe that one must have EITHER faith – OR have works and be damned ? Again, this is not in my Bible. Salvation has always been granted through the mercy of God to those men and women who were righteous before the Lord… Once we have been baptized in Christ’s name, in the name of the Father & the Son & the Holy Spirit, we are called to believe in Him AND do good works… to bring forth fruits worthy of repentance… this OPPOSISTION of faith versus works in the Church is unprecedented before the seventeenth century… so what is your basis for this ?
    You said that James was talking to the Jews… AND ? So what ? There is no longer any distinction between Jew and Gentile. Either you are following God’s will – or you aren’t. Period. So what is God’s will ? For ALL of us to be saved through the Christ, Jesus, of course !
    Bringing me now to your loaded question : “How are we saved, Prodigal ?”… I was wondering when this can would be opened… let’s open it.
    How are we saved ? That’s an EASY one ! Christ Jesus saves us ! He’s the ONLY way ! The Son became man – FOR our salvation. Christ is the ONE Mediator between God and men. Jesus, the Mediator is the one Who chose Peter to establish the Church, which is His Body… so if you are joined to Christ, you are also joined to the Church – which was built upon the rock that was Peter.
    Our Mediator, our Christ said He would build His Church upon the rock that was Peter, so what did Jesus mean in Matt 16 ? How did Peter build the Church ?… In the Book of Acts, when Peter’s sermon on the day of Pentecost is over, the people ask for guidance toward their salvation (as you just have)… “What shall we do ?”, they ask. And so, following Peter’s words, they are baptized… and join w/ other believers… some 3,000 people !
    Now unified with Christ and His Church – which He built through Peter – these baptized believers began living as the Bride of Christ. What did they do ? They looked after each other, using their personal resources to care for one another, as they continued together in prayer, and in partaking of the Eucharist. Then, from that point, “The Lord added to the Church daily those who were being saved…” Plain and simple ! All through Acts, the Church is being built, as the Gospel spreads. We MUST be born again- a birth from above, realized in the water and the Holy Spirit, for… “Unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the Kingdom of God.”

    • Job said

      Ephesians 2:8-9
      For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
      Not of works, lest any man should boast.

      Please, go read the book of Galatians, then the book of Colossians. Second, like many folks, you are taking the book of James out of context. Faith without works is dead only means that if you are truly saved, you will produce works. James was combating false doctrines in his day and time where Christians who wanted to do good works were being told that they should not.

      There is another side to this also … look at the words of Jesus Christ. Works without faith are dead also. People who do works in the absence of faith are called goats, because a goat by nature is disobedient, stubborn, and will only try to come to Christ on the goat’s own terms instead of on Christ’s terms.

      Works is like maturing in the fruits of the Holy Spirit. Maturing in the Holy Spirit are not requirements for salvation, but rather evidence that the person is saved, and the same goes for works.

      So first you defend venerating icons, now you are promoting the Catholic faith + works formula. Are you Roman Catholic or Eastern Orthodox or emergent church?

      • JOHN KANIECKI said

        Job,

        Hi hope you are well.

        Go to the Greek language in Ephesians 2:8. Works is a repeated work such as taking the Lord’s Supper or praying. We are saved through faith. Baptism is an act of faith.

        Examine all the conversions in Acts and see if you see a patter. Acts 2 three thousand at Pentecost. Acts 8 the Eunich. Acts 9 and 22 Saul. Acts 10 Cornelius. Acts 16 Lydia and her household and the Philipian Jailer. Acts 18 Crispus and his household. Acts 19 Ephesians who were baptized with John’s baptism.

        Love,

        John

        • Job said

          John K:

          ???

          You know that I am sola fide, and that I possess no tension or confusion between faith and works. I have absolutely no idea why Martin Luther called the book of James “pure straw.”

      • The Prodigal Son said

        Job, I’ve been trying to show you I am not defending the Roman “Catholic Church”… Peter’s chair has been overturned…

        I have said before, they are no Church of Christ and they have not been since the year 1054 when they left the one Church in error. The Vatican has been usurped by the anti-Christ money-changers, covertly at first, then overtly w/ the emergence of the Vatican II, now blatantly… with the ‘Jews’ demanding that the Pope refrain from wearing the Cross when he enters the Holy land in his upcoming visit to Jerusalem.

        Now, it seems Job (and others) that you are forgetting that when the Son of Man comes in His glory, He will sit on His judgement seat and divide us all… Sheep go to Heaven, goats go to Hell… So how will he designate the one from the other ?

        He will judge us by our works !

        Works, as in MERCY toward others and GOOD DEEDS in the name of the Lord – which through us – brings glory to God… and NOT us ! If we (selflessly) do good deeds and help those in need (especially the least of these), as Christ has warned us to do – then people will see us, and they will love Christ, through us… which will bring them to Christ – through us; which is the greatest thing we can do !

        Contrast this with the so-called ‘Christians’ in Iraq, Afghanistan and elsewhere, seen by the rest of the world to be madmen… Killing children and innocents, stealing in the name of God !

        Don’t you see – faith and works go absolutely hand in hand, and it’s up to US to make it happen – to bear good fruit in Christ’s name,or be cast into the fire !

        If we fail to put our faith into ACTION – through such works of charity and mercy (as described in Matt 25:31-46), then our ‘faith’ is DEAD… it is nothing more than intellectual lip-service. IF we accept Christ – the Son of Man… as the Son of the LIving God, yet we fail to bring His love in concrete ways to others – then we are LIARS !

        Our very salvation Job, hinges on our willingness to use our FREE WILL to put our faith into action… to bear witness for Christ. Actions do speak louder than words, and we may be discerned by our fruits.

        Thanks

  16. theoldadam said

    Can Jesus save us apart from baptism? Yes.

    Did he command us to baptize? Yes.

    Does He save in baptism? Yes.

    The sacraments of baptism and holy communion keep us off the religious project of works,of feelings, of having faith in faith, instead of having faith in God.

    I believe that is why Christ instituted them. (commanded them)

    • JOHN KANIECKI said

      Old Adam,

      Hi hope you are well.

      1 Peter 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh but the answer of a good consciousnss toward God)by the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

      See Romans 6.

      Love,

      John

  17. David L. Williams said

    I wonder how many tmes I’ll post this: Salvation is mentioned in the NT in 3 tenses. If this is not considered, on and on will go the argument about works. The tenses are, saved, being saved, and will be saved.

    1) Saved, as in being converted by believing (faith) that Jesus is who He says He is and can do what He says He can. Requires no works. Belief counts as righteousness.

    2) Being saved, as in going thru a Holy Spirit guided sanctification process. This is never completed here on earth, but progress will show by the fruit. Works is a by-product.

    3) Will be saved, as in going to Heaven and receiving rewards for the fruit. (works)

  18. theoldadam said

    David L. Williams,

    You sound like some sort of kook that actually trusts in what God does!

    You’d better get with it man, you are missing out on a whole lot of fun and self-occupying holiness projects in the name of Jesus.

  19. David L. Williams said

    Another point P.S. brot up that may need a further look: That Peter (petra, rock) was the foundation the church would be built on. An unprejudiced reading of that verse might bring us closer to the truth. I find it more likely that Jesus meant that the revelation Peter had just received from the Father was the base (rock) for the future church. That would mean that “the revelation of Jesus to us” is the rock, not Peter. Isn’t that how salvation comes to us, by revelation?

    We might also explore the fruit of choosing Peter as that rock. With a couple of exceptions, Peter had little to do with the future of the Church, as he stayed with the other Apostles in trying to convert the Jews. Paul even says he is the Apostle to the gentiles and his writings pretty much show that is true. If we use the choice of Peter as the rock of the church, then what do we do with Paul? After all, the converts of the Catholic church are generally gentiles, aren’t they?

    The history of placing a man as foundation, (other than Jesus) has shown what that can lead to. Idolatry, Mary worship, political infighting for position in the church, wars to forcefully convert others, covering up many lies they had previously taught as truth, and on and on. Has there ever been public repentance for the evil foundations of the Catholic Church? No, they continue to cover up their beginnings, and how they still have to live with the lies. Does that sound like a church Jesus would build?

    • JOHN KANIECKI said

      David,

      Hi hope you are well.

      Baptism is something not done to an infant. Mark 16:16 one must believe to be baptized. Mathew 28:19-20 one must be able to be taught.

      I doubt Prodigal is referring to baptism by immersion to somebody who is old enough to understand what it going on. To believe wetting a baby’s forehead and saying a prayer has any effect on salvation is a myth.

      Love,

      John

      • The Prodigal Son said

        John… ~~~ ~~~ How goes it ? Glad to hear that you are enjoying your new job ! ~~~ ~~~ Re: Child baptism… consider this John (and David) : … Throughout Acts, we see the baptism of whole families and households… we have to assume there were children, don’t we ? It doesn’t say, whole families MINUS the children… ~~~ ~~~ Also recall when Jesus (God Himself) said, “Let the children come to Me, and do not forbid them, for of such is the Kingdom of Heaven.” ~~~ ~~~ Plus – Paul’s repeated likening of circumcision to baptism… circumcision was/is performed on infants, right ? ~~~ ~~~ Peace.

        • John Kaniecki said

          Progigal,

          1 Peter 3 talks about our pledge of good conscious.

          Acts 2 teaches repentence at baptism.

          Mark 16 to believel

          Mathew 28 to be taught.

          None of those things apply to people with no understanding.

          Love,

          John

  20. theoldadam said

    John Kaniecki,

    Since God is the One doing the bapizing (in water baptism) it makes no difference the age of the baptised.

    God is no respector of persons and no respector of age when it comes to the giving of His spirit and His promises.

    I know you don’t agree, and that’s ok.

    But realize that millions of Christians (the majority of Christians) over the millenia agree with us on this one.

    • JOHN KANIECKI said

      OLD ADAM,

      THEN WOULD YOU AGREE THAT BAPTISM IS NOT A WORK AS REGARDING WORK IN EPHESIANS 2:8

      LOVE,

      JOHN

  21. theoldadam said

    John K.,

    Baptism is God’s work. Always. No exception.

    If He told us to do it, (and He did), then He will be there in it.

    He never told us to do anything where he wouldn’t be there, in it, for us.

    That God wills to save using baptism to impart His spirit and forgiveness (Acts 2:38), then that is God’s business.

    Can God save apart from water baptism? Of course!!

    Can God save through water baptism? Of course!!

    Is, or is God not free to save whom He will, how He wills? Of course He is! (Romans 9)

    Thanks, John!

  22. David L. Williams said

    In my above post, I was not referring specifically to baptism, but all works. I do consider baptism a work, but I put it in the “sanctification” slot. It does not either get one into or out of Heaven, which takes only true believing who Jesus is. (Not just believing ABOUT Jesus.) One is not “more” going to Heaven if baptized. It is probably the first act of obedience of a new believer, thus a work of sanctification. A public visible display of what is happening spiritually inside.

    A baby cannot make this decision, for it is a work of the Holy Spirit, AFTER belief. So, no person can make this decision for another, either. Baptizing a baby does not guarantee it has had the revelation of Jesus.. DavWms

  23. theoldadam said

    David L. Williams,

    Well…we see the Christian faith very differently.

    You believe in the Christian’s will and I believe in God’s will.

    Jesus told Niccodemus that he couldn’t make this decision, but rather this new birth had to come from above.

    Jesus also told his disciples that He chose them, they didn’t choose Him.

    The Lord can create faith in infants anytime he wants to. he made John the Baptist leap for joy in the womb when he was near Jesus who was also in the womb.

    The decision that matters is not ours. Our are weak and faithless. His are strong and trustworthy.

    Believers baptism leaves me cold.

    I love letting God be God and letting Him create faith in baptism if he so wills.

    Jesus said, “go, baptize and teach…” Notice the order. Baptisim comes first. To all nations (ponta ethnae) in the Greek…it means all people…not over the age of whatever.

    Babies are born into sin. They need forgiveness too.

    We LOVE to baptise babies because it places things in their prpper order…Grace BEFORE faith. That is how it ought always be.

    So, to wrap it up…baptism is not something WE DO. It is something GOD DOES…to us and for us.

    Thanks!

  24. David L. Williams said

    Oldadam, it is true, we have different beliefs that probably won’t be resolved until we see Jesus as He is. The new birth and being baptized are 2 parts of the same whole. When you first believe, you are then a born-again Christian. If you never have a chance to be baptized, it will not stand in the way of your going to Heaven. We have the thief on the cross as an example of that. Yes, the thief did not go directly to Heaven when he went to Paradise, but he went to the holding place for those headed to Heaven. He did not get baptized. He did not get to do any works of further sanctification, also known as one tense of salvation.

    I see no place in the NT that implies one human can decide to put another in the water, and that God will then complete the baptism with all that it means. This takes away from each of us having a will whether to have a relationship with Jesus, which is after all, what He seeks. (Not all who come to me saying, “Didn’t I cast out demons in your name,….etc;”)

    All too many join an already operating church and find themselves caught up in the excitement of being born-again. Since that is where they got saved, it falls in as a natural thing to go along with all that church teaches, including its mens’ traditions. Few there be that find the Narrow Gate and take the Narrow Path of seeking real truth…instead, they learn to defend mens’ traditions, thinking they are speaking for God.

    If we go on in this discussion, it will mean we have to bring in predestination and argue that. It would also mean differentiating what all the different baptisms spoken of in the NT each means. I don’t care to rehash all that. I simply stand on what I wrote in my post # 17.. DavWms

  25. theoldadam said

    David L. Williams,

    Yes, it’s a lengthy discussion, baptism is.

    I’ll end my side of it by saying that almost all the references of baptism in the New Testament are of water baptism.

    Jesus commanded that we put people into the water (to baptise).

    To think that when Jesus told us to go out and baptise people (in Matthew 28)He was telling us to go and give people the Holy Spirit doesn’t make any sense. He told us to baptise people. All people.

    So we baptise (in water), although it is not the water that saves but God’s Word along with that water (the promise…God’s promise)

    We disagree. That’s ok… it is no barrier to God.

    Take care and God bless you, David!

    – Steve

  26. The Prodigal Son said

    Lots of discussion since I last posted ! That’s good ! Discussion will reveal the truth… ~~~ ~~~ I have to go to work now, but I will clarify for you Job : … I am NOT Roman Catholic ! I think you could probably guess what criminal group I think is running the Vatican now… I think Mel Gibson would tell you the same. ~~~ ~~~ Regarding : Baptizm… I will refer all of you back to post # 14 (15 ?), where I have directly qouted Jesus when He said that we would NOT enter the Kingdom of Heaven if we are not baptized – in water (which was forever changed when John baptized Jesus in the Jordan) – and unless we recieve the Holy Spirit. Seems pretty clear to me !… This is why we baptise children, as TRUE Christians always have. ~~~ ~~~ So HOW does one go about recieving the Holy Spirit ? … Thanks, everyone (especially Job !)

  27. theoldadam said

    Trusting that God does something in baptism (anyone’s baptism) is trusting God to do what He says he will do.

    I find it a little odd that so many Christians believe that God can ACTUALLY be present in their hearts…but say that He cannot be present in a bowl of water accompanied by His Word of promise.

    I don’t quite understand that one.

    • David L. Williams said

      Oldadam, it’s not about whether we can believe God can do something. That’s not even the question. It is that many believe that Baptism is done at the request of an individual prompted by the Holy Spirit. Many do not believe another should make that decision for the other, for example, a baby. Simple. Not worth an argument. And certainly not worth a circle argument. DavWms

  28. lesha said

    Discernment ministries abound,but the focus should be on content,not label. We still ned to be like the Bereans and double-check everythin against the Word of God. We still need the Holy Spirit to show us what is true.

    The Internet is still part of Satan’s domain, and one can be caught up in the web to the point of ignoring personal prayer and devotion and bible study while blogging, watching sermons online etc…….. (I stuggle with this)

    Re: the Obama factor, not all who ‘oppose’ him are politically biased. I’m black and live outside of the U.S. and got the shock of my life the day after the election when I mentioned to some coworkers that Obama is not who or what they think he is.(They were hailing the victory and lauding the man) Four persons (including a known Chrisian) berated me loudly to the point where if we were not in an office I would have feared for my life. And in that moment it confirmed again what I felt in my spirit, there is a powerful spiritual factor to President Obama, and it’s not the Holy Spirit.

    So don’t write it off as politics, for George Bush is pretty boring when compared to Obama. Obama is sexy, trendy, hott!!!
    And he is popular…global popular. To speak against him is to be discounted and vilified even. Nobody took George Bush seriously….they called him Dubya…the media mocked him….
    but they practically worship Obama. Coud they lead others to do likewise?

    Keep up the good work and God bless.

  29. The Prodigal Son said

    David L. W… ~~~ ~~~ “As soon as you believe you are born again.”… What ?!? Hear Paul, speaking to disciples in Ephesus… : ‘ “Did you recieve the Holy Spirit when you believed ?” So they said to him, “We have not so much as heard whether there is a Holy Spirit.” And he said to them, “Into what then were you baptized ?” So they said, “Into John’s baptism.” Then Paul said, “John indeed baptized with a baptism of repentance, saying to the people that they should believe on Him who would come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.” When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. And *when Paul had laid hands on them*, the Holy Spirit came upon them… ‘ – Acts 19:1-6 ~~~ ~~~ David – The New Birth IS baptism ! … “Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we should all walk in newness of life.” (Paul – Rom. 6:4)… In I Peter 3:21, it is clear that indeed, baptism … “now saves us”…

  30. theoldadam said

    David,

    You haven’t heard a word I’ve said.

    It’s about GOD DOING THE BAPTISING.

    You keep talking about this one or that one making the decision for someone else. GOD HAS MADE THE DECISION to love and forgive sinners and give them His spirit in baptism.

    (I just I thought I’d speak up a bit that you might hear something of which I am speaking about) 😀

  31. David L. Williams said

    Luke:19:9

  32. David L. Williams said

    Luke 19:9

    • The Prodigal Son said

      I take it you are using this example (as you have w/ the good thief) to show that we don’t have to be baptized, but remember, David… God can raise up sons of Abraham from stones if He chooses ! But that does not change His instructions to those who wish to be His Bride ! ~~~ ~~~ Go back just a bit in Luke, to the story of the rich young man (18:18-27)… at the end of the account Jesus says, “The things which are impossible with men are possible with God.”… in other words, He is able to bestow His grace unto anyone if He sees fit, but that is not our concern… We are to follow His instructions if we have heard them and we are able. ~~~ ~~~ That covers the example of the good thief… the example of Zacchaeus is really not applicable anyway, because he was joined to the Israel of God by becoming a Christian ! THIS now, is the seed of Abraham – those in Christ Jesus… Early Church records tell us that Zacchaeus went on to become a Bishop of the Church, so we can be sure that he must have been baptized !

  33. theoldadam said

    There are two different lenses to look at baptism and repentance through.

    You can use thr humanistic lense where man’s effort, and man’s faith is central.

    Or you can use the Christ centered lense where God is the One at work in these things for us.

    The former likes decision and acceptance and our faith. The latter prefers God’s acceptance of us, God’s work in baptism and repentance for us.

    The former has a higher view of man. The latter a higher view of God.

    Infant baptism is just too gracious. That is the main objection (when you boil it down).

    I mean, after all, I had to make my decision, I had to repent, I had to show God that I am serious about this Christian life thing…so why in the world shouldn’t an infant have to DO so as well?

    Those who oppose infany baptism hate the graciousness of it.

  34. David L. Williams said

    To me, what this comes down to is just what is our Spiritual relationship? We can have a relationship directly with Jesus with His Holy Spirit residing within us. Or, like the Pharisees, we can have a relationship with the rules and regulations we search out in the Word. This is trying to please God by obedience to the Law.

    To further argue this is futile, and I now leave this discussion to you for the last word… DavWms

  35. Diane said

    Hello Steve.

    Question…

    If I understand you correctly, you believe a person is born again if another person chooses for them to be water baptised, because God is in the ritual of baptism.

    Would your understanding (I know you believe this is the lense of Christ) work for mafia members who get sprinkled and their babies, since God is in a bowl of water?

    If a person can choose for another person to be baptised, then should we just pour holy water on everyone? What of a child that is water baptised and grows up to be a seriel rapist and murderer? Was he saved since there is no repentance and no belief required of God? Did he lose his salvation?

  36. Diane said

    Im sorry Steve

    I did read your comment about people not choosing for another person to be baptised and that it is God that does the baptising.

    But, since the parents didnt choose for their infants to be baptised when they brought their infants to be baptist, there is no need to preach repentance at all, God has done it all.

  37. theoldadam said

    Diane,

    Since one sin is enough to damn us to hell, all of us are in the same boat.

    Can people walk away from their baptisms? Of course they can!

    But make no mistake about it, the promise given there (to the infant, or whomever, is still good and valid…always.

    We (Lutherans) believe that people need to be kept in faith. need to hear the Word and recieve the sacraments.

    Murder and rape are horrible crimes, but for righteousness sake they are no worse than overeating, gossiping, or worrying. All are sin. St. Paul tells us that if we have broken one, then we have broken them all.

    How merciful will the Lord be to sinners who do not appear to be faithful and do not appear to trust in the promises made to them in their baptisms? We cannot say.

    But God loves sinners and we pray that He will be merciful to all. For none of us deserve His grace. Not a one of us.

    That’s my take, Diane.

    Thanks!

    – Steve

  38. Diane said

    Steve,

    So all the kids need is a good bath🙂

    Im one that truly believes that it’s God’s sovereign will that man have free will and there’s evidence of God’s sovereign will and man’s free will throughout the scripture.

    Christ says that a man’s enemies would be they of his own house, and that family members would even be put to death because of Christ, yet you have Paul saying that your whole house will be saved. We have to reconcile those passages or we end up in error. To take the position that children are saved through infant baptism and if they grow up to be rapist and murderers, they are no worse than those who over eat, is to lay aside the sobering Words of Jesus in Matt 7:21-23.

    If a child is saved in infant baptism, how does this child then rise up to put parents to death?

    These are the actions of an unregenerate soul, old things have not passed away, because this person is not born of the Spirit.

    I know it’s your belief that they can walk away from baptisms, where as my belief is that a child has a certain amount of grace upon them due to having believing parents, but they are not born again until they themselves believe on Jesus as Lord.

    Diane

  39. theoldadam said

    Diane,

    Good verse you cited in Matthew, Diane.

    Some believe and some don’t. Those that DID things in Jesus’ name were told to depart. Jesus never knew them. Could some of theose be the ones who thought that Jesus knew them because of some decision that they themselves made?

    Another great verse in Matthew says to be perfect as the Father in Heaven is perfect.

    That ought send chills down the spine of everyone that thinks that what they’ve done (what decisions they’ve made) should be worth something.

    I was speaking to my pastor this morning on the topic and he said that those who oppose infant baptism ought consider that possibility that they are opposing the grace of God.

    It is something to think about.

    Remember, John the Baptist was given the grace and the faith to believe while he was still in the womb. (jumped for joy in the presence of his cousin Jesus while they were both still in the womb)

    Thanks, Diane!

  40. Diane said

    Good consideration for all of us,

    but did you consider Jesus is specifically speaking of those who practice lawlessness, which is in direct opposition of the position, that murder and rape is no different than over eating.

    That verse is not saying that people are going to be saved through baptism, apart from faith, and those who dont believe that people are saved through baptism apart from faith are practicing lawlessness. Steve that is stretching things to say the least.

    John the Baptist received the Holy Spirit apart from water baptism.

  41. theoldadam said

    Diane,

    I extrapolated from that because “all of our righteous deeds are as polluted garments.”

    “There is none that are righteous.”

    Sin has made all that WE DO unacceptable before God.

    So, I would rather fallback on something that God has done for us, and where God has decided to make that )something that he has done – the cross) tangible, for our sakes in in baptism.

    It takes me out of the self. It takes me away from having faith in my faith, and brings me to have faith in God and what He has done for me, on the cross, in His Word, made manifest for me, in my baptism.

    It is something that comes to us from outside of ourselves.

    That’s why I believe it to be true (and also the scriptures say so also – “baptism now saved you also.” (1st Peter)

    Many received the Spirit direct from God (apart from water baptism) and many received it direct from God in water baptism.

    God knows each of us, who are called and chosen, before we were in the womb. But He also told us to baptise…for a reason.

    God would not order us to do something just for fun.

    Diane, you are a pleasure to have a discussion with!

    Thanks very much!

    – Steve

  42. The Prodigal Son said

    … John the Baptist was exceedingly righteous before the Lord (which is the key to all of this)… he was the last prophet of the OLD Covenant – which has passed away… and he foretold the coming of Christ; he was the voice of one crying in the wilderness, whose own coming was also foretold. Since the destruction of the Temple (70 AD), baptism is how we receive the Spirit. This however, is no guarantee of salvation… but it is part of the promise… and a VERY important part, indeed ! ~~~ ~~~ (Those who are not reborn from death out of the water, and those who do not receive, or reject the Holy Spirit – after having received… will not enter the Kingdom of God.)

  43. Diane said

    Faith in Christ is for sure not the same as faith in faith.

    Good night🙂

    Diane

  44. theoldadam said

    Amen, Diane!

    g’night.

  45. Meg said

    I find it very troubling with online ‘discernment ministries’ because It got pretty bad on juding people, gossiping, slandering, and calling everything ‘heresy’ if they don’t agree with their theachings and condanmed you for it. It’s a form of spiritual abuse. I was attacked by these people by not agree with the ministry that I post the link about ‘Christians’ sniping and nikpicking on everyone and I found out that I did all this too and tell my aploplogy for it. Later, I found out that just acting just like them. Now I found that if People are send out to preach the Gospel, not everyone of them are perfect and they are preaching the truth and I there is no need that I have to be so picky on every single teachings they preach and nobody is perfect. Another thing is if the preacher is doing wrong is and they are exposing them, what about Matthew 18:15-17 because we don’t know if this person is repented not? I will never going to these online ‘discernment ministries’ again. Please pray that will be saved and stay away from these so-called ‘ministries’ that dones not show any love nor truth.

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