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Regarding Abortion, Jesus Christ, Joseph And Mary: What If Mary Had Chosen Abortion?

Posted by Job on February 23, 2009

This powerful post on the topic of abortion from brother Laz caused me to ponder on the whole anti – abortion political movement and its influence on evangelical Christianity, particularly the fact that a great deal of tolerance is bestowed by evangelical political leaders upon those who profess to be Christian so long as they are sufficiently pro – life no matter what other flaws these “Christian pro – lifers” have in their doctrinal systems and lifestyles. Truthfully, other than perhaps the work of Billy Graham (and before him John Wesley), nothing has been more effective at uniting evangelical Protestants with Roman Catholics and (lately) Mormons and not to mention the wealthy, powerful decadent “Christian in name only” personalities active in politics and politiically driven media than the pro – life movement, which itself is but a part of the “family values theology” which again is part of the “Christian culture/Christian nation theology.”  

So, I recounted during Election 2008 that presidential candidate John Edwards (who despite his support for abortion and homosexuality and – more important – his personally being an adulterer, making him no different from plenty of abortion and gay rights opponents who are also adulterers and fornicators, claims to be a devout Christian of Southern Baptist leanings) hired viciously anti – Christian atheist Amanda Marcotte to publicize his campaign. Among many of the “witty gems” that Marcotte produced was something to the effect of: what if Mary was on Plan B (the abortion pill) when Jesus Christ was conceived. (Actually, Marcotte’s words were much more mocking of God and vulgar.) Yet, this evil woman’s point was a good one: that the agenda of the “religious right” was not religious at all, but a cultural and political agenda. Now it is true that many of these people have indeed integrated culture and politics into their theological worldview, but the result is something that teeters on being a false religion that rejects the reason why Jesus Christ came (to die on the cross for our sins) and before then why Israel and Judaism were formed (so that Jesus Christ could come to die on the cross for our sins) in the first place. 

After all, Marcotte was somewhat correct in her mocking: abortion pills and other modern forms of contraception were not available to Mary at the time that Jesus Christ was conceived and in the nation and culture that Jesus Christ was born into. Now from the perspective of a political (worldly and carnal by definition) Christian, the response would be to imagine if it had been and gasp with horror at what might have been were our abortion pill culture had been in existence in Mary’s Roman Empire, and had Mary availed herself of it. And you know what? That is not only a perspective that rejects faith, but also history.

For the Roman Empire that Jesus Christ was born into was not a “Christian nation” and it was also not a “moral family values” one. Instead, there were multitudes of religions and bizarre abominable practices. For instance, homosexuality was commonly practiced, and if a man did not want his family, not only could he easily receive a divorce, but if he did not want to bother with divorce proceedings provided that he was a Roman citizen he could simply have the entire family –  his wife and children and everyone living in his house – killed. So, the world, the western culture that Jesus Christ was born into was not a family values culture. Furthermore, it was still not a family values culture when He finished His work and ascended into heaven. It was wicked before Jesus Christ came, was wicked when He departed, and will be wicked when He returns. Jesus Christ stated that this world and its cultures would always reject Him and those who truly know and represent Him. The “family values/Christian culture” theologians get around this by claiming “oh, Jesus Christ wasn’t talking about OUR culture and nation when He said that … He was only talking about the Pharisees, Sadduccees, and the rest of those wicked Jews.”

And so, in the decidedly “anti – family” that was the Roman Empire, do you know what else was available? A primitive form of abortion, along with infanticide and primitive contraception. So what if Mary had decided to avail herself of what was available and commonly practiced in the culture and gotten an abortion? After all, though betrothed, she was still technically single. She was also impoverished, belonged to a marginal class even among Jews, and her being pregnant would ruin practically any chance of getting married, which was her only practical hope of financial security and/or social mobility. Oh yes, there was also the fact that under Jewish law, she could have been killed by stoning. So, Mary had every reason to furtively seek out the Romans to receive an abortion, a decision which of our last several presidents Gerald Ford, Jimmy Carter, George H. W. Bush, Bill Clinton, and Barack Obama have stated that they would have fully supported. (Ronald Reagan and George W. Bush made no such statements, but Bush was on record as opposing the overturn of Roe v. Wade and Reagan for his part signed America’s most liberal abortion bill into law as governor of California, and, as he himself was a divorcee, signed a no – fault divorce bill into law as well.) But Mary did not.

Joseph for his part had his options as well. He could have handed Mary over to be stoned. Or he could have divorced and abandoned her and the child. And keep in mind: there is no scriptural evidence that Joseph had the full benefit of knowledge that Mary did. The Bible does not relate Joseph being told that Mary’s child was the Son of God and the Messiah. The Bible only records Joseph being told that the child was of the Holy Spirit. (And keep in mind this context: Judaism taught that ALL conceptions were the work of the Holy Spirit.) Also, Joseph was not given this information in an awesome angelic visitation as was Mary. It came to him in a dream that would have been very easy to later deny and reject as part of justifying his decision to rid himself of responsibility for a child that was not his, and of the woman who became impregnated with such a child while she was engaged to him. After all, consider this fellow’s plight. The fact that Mary was pregnant before they were officially married with a child that was not his … how do you keep something like that secret, and prevent being the subject of gossip, scorn, ridicule and rejection, especially from your own family? But like Mary, Joseph did the right thing. 

And why did Mary and Joseph both do the right thing concerning Jesus Christ, ensuring not only His birth, but that His birth that would fulfill prophecies that would demonstrate to the Jews and to the world His identity? Simple: they were righteous people that obeyed God. Their righteousness was not the product of growing up in a “Christ honoring culture in a Christian nation with Christian values encoded in their system of laws.” In other words, it was not due to abortion being unavailable to Mary, not an option for her legally or practically. Mary had every opportunity to do wrong, but chose to do right.

For Joseph, the opposite was actually true. For him, the right thing to do according to the Torah would have been to take Mary to the priests and other religious and legal authorities to be stoned to death. Even though many who have studied Jewish history during the period state that stonings for adultery and other violations of the Sinai code had become exceedingly rare during that time, by taking Mary to the priests, Joseph would have fulfilled his own responsibility under the law. And further, it can be argued that Joseph’s plans to divorce Mary secretly without exposing her to public shame – or threat of death – qualified as his understanding Jesus Christ’s teachings of the weightier matters of the law, which are judgment, mercy, and faith.

But instead, Joseph and Mary did the right thing, which was to trust and obey God. Mary did not need a “Judeo – Christian set of laws” or a  “values based society” in order to keep her from sinning by abortion or anything else. She merely needed to be righteous, to love God by keeping His commandments. And Joseph would have actually been conforming to his Jewish legal and cultural context, righteous according to the externals of the law, by turning Mary over the authorities. The fact that he was pondering how to exceed the external righteousness of his religious and cultural systems in the first place, that he was trying to do more than what was required of him to be counted as righteous and just in the eyes of man, was evidence of his love for God, and the fact that he heeded the dream and made Mary and the child his responsibility was evidence of his faith. 

Mary and Joseph did not obtain their righteousness and faith from being born into a nation that loved and honored Yahweh and had a system of laws that reflected His nature. This would not have been possible, as the nation and culture that was the Roman Empire was as bad as our own of today, if not worse. Instead, they obtained their righteousness and faith from God. Consider the plight of Elijah, who was running from Jezebel and Ahab, the latter two of whom had led Israel into pagan idolatrous apostasy and killed the prophets. God’s statement to Elijah in 1 Kings 19:18: Yet I have left me seven thousand in Israel, all the knees which have not bowed unto Baal, and every mouth which hath not kissed him.

In the midst of the wickedness of the nation and culture, God preserved for Himself a people for His Name. These people were not righteous because of the world, because they were called out of the world, just as Israel was chosen from among the nations. They were called by God, predestined and elected to righteousness by God, and placed in that particular place and time by God for the purposes of serving Him and bringing glory to His Name.

The same is true of this Mary and Joseph. No matter what sort of culture or nation that they were born in, they would have still fulfilled their duties that came with bringing Jesus Christ into the world. Regardless of whether their external environment was good or evil according to its laws, culture and religion, Mary and Joseph were inevitably going to do the right thing because they were righteous. The reason is that their righteousness was not due to governments and cultures – which are the works of men – because if they were, then men should be able to boast about contributing to their own justification. Instead, their righteousness was due to God’s making them so, and predestining that they would be so. And where man’s nations and systems will inevitably fail, God’s divine sovereign decrees cannot and will not fail. This is with respect to man’s salvation and everything else. That is the meaning of the doctrines of grace.

Make no mistake. Abortion is a great abomination, a great evil, that should be outlawed in any society that considers itself civilized. The same is true of homosexual marriage. However, it was not the absence of legal abortion that prevented Mary from aborting Jesus Christ. (And as stated earlier, Joseph actually opposed the religious and cultural views of the day to obey his dream from God to make Mary his wife and to adopt Jesus Christ as his son.) Instead, it was the fact that Mary – and Joseph – was righteous. Mary and Joseph were not righteous because they were born in a Christian nation. They were not righteous because they were born to a church going family. They were not righteous because they were baptized as infants. They were not righteous because they raised their hands or came forward in response to an altar call (not that I in any way oppose invitations; I support them 100%!), said a prayer, or had their names added to a church roll. Instead, they were righteous because God made them so by virtue of His divine predestination and election. They were righteous because God called them out of this world to be part of His ekklesia. And their righteousness was not demonstrated or proven by their nationality, religious or political affiliation, cultural norms, or even their stated beliefs, but by their behavior, which was unyielding obedience to God and His Word in the face of all obstacles and in spite of all opposition. 

So, despite the evil that goes on in the world (or perhaps because of it) our goal is not to transform the world, to change the culture. In “The Visitation”, the Frank Peretti novel, the protagonist informed a young naive pastor that the job of the church was not to “take the town for Christ” because not even Christ Himself “took a town for Christ!” No, not only did Jerusalem reject Jesus Christ, but the place where Jesus Christ had the least honor, the fewest followers and believers, was His own country, and even His own brothers born in His house did not believe in Him! Instead, our job is to evangelize. To spread the gospel. To preach, teach, minister, disciple, and to baptize. Our job is to be the vessels for the sovereign God to use to call others out of this wicked world just as He called us out of it. And anything that distracts or hinders or redirects us from that task is just that: a barrier erected that opposes the will and righteousness of God. It must, by definition then, be considered sinful, evil, a work of Satan, the adversary, and not of God. 

Christians are not called to transform the world into Christ’s image. Christians are called to reject the world so that we might be fully effective in being used by Jesus Christ to go after His lost sheep. The sad fact that this world is sinful, that people are born in sin, and that people are going to sin. However, the joyful fact that opposes this is that if we would just obey God, He will use us to bring people out of sin and into salvation so that He will transform them, transform His people, transform His church, into righteousness. The issue is not to transform a sinful world, but rather to go after the people that God will conform into the image of His Son. If you profess yourself to be a Christian, please, go about the business of that issue today and every day. Maranantha!

37 Responses to “Regarding Abortion, Jesus Christ, Joseph And Mary: What If Mary Had Chosen Abortion?”

  1. angel said

    we would all be arabs, and worship allah

    so we should be glad that did not happen

  2. angel said

    that is not my icon….I do not have big muscles!!

    where did that come from?

  3. theoldadam said

    We would all be in DEEP DOO-DOO!

  4. The Prodigal Son said

    Anja… ~~~ ~~~ Did the ‘writers of the Bible’ (whom you believe just ‘made up’ Jesus Christ) also author the Muslim Qu’aran ? Because it too mentions (w/ great reverence) both Jesus and His Holy Mother Mary ! ~~~ ~~~ And did the same ‘writers’ also author the Jewish Babylonian Talmud ? Because it too, mentions Jesus and Mary (though it says He was a sorcerer, and She was a whore !)… it even mentions St. Paul (Saul of Tarsus), though it says he was a manic depressive… ~~~ ~~~ Therefore, if these people were not real… then why would the Pharisees (enemies of Jesus) not only affirm His, and their existence, but also the Miracles performed by Christ (even if they did say He did magic with His penis !) ~~~ ~~~ B.T.W… your icon is a pentagram ?!? NOT COOL ! By rejecting Christ, you have chosen the other team… the WRONG team ! Just know that it is never too late for you to repent ! May God bless you w/ the Light of Truth, and deliver you from evil.

  5. The Prodigal Son said

    Wow, that was the fastest reply I’ve seen yet ! ~~~ ~~~ Are you honestly asking why a pentagram for an icon – on a Christian weblog – is not cool ? It is a symbol associated w/ witchcraft, as you WELL know ! ~~~ ~~~ Please inform us : what is this ‘coven’ that you mention so frequently ? Perhaps in answering that, you will answer your one of your own questions.. ~~~ ~~~ Maybe I will respond to your other questions when you have responded to mine… ~~~ ~~~ And lose the pentagram, huh ? Thanks.

  6. theoldadam said

    There are more than one kind of spirit out there.

    Personally, I wouldn’t want to be messing around with any of them if I didn’t know they were of God.

    There is a lot of evil out there that may seem fun or interesting.

    Food for thought.

  7. angelpurplewings said

    Anja

    Ignore Prodigal. He is a Muslim, masquerading as a christian. Clues: he despises Jews, and defames them, and he makes comments like:

    “Muslim Qu’aran ? Because it too mentions (w/ great reverence) both Jesus and His Holy Mother Mary !”

    Notice he defends the heresy of the quran….so who is he to criticize you? it is hypocrisy to pretend to be a christian and come on a blog like this, then turn around and criticize others.

  8. Diane said

    Anja,

    Since you don’t believe Jesus the Son of the Living God, is the Christ, why are you here?

  9. John Kaniecki said

    Diane,

    Hi hope you are well.

    When somebody walks into our church building we are estatic! It is a chance to spread the good news. Anja is certainly welcome and her unique perspective is appreciated by me. I even went to her website.

    She brings valid points that the church has sold out to the dollar bill and that too little about Jesus is taught. Even though she is a non believer she sees better than multitudes of lost who follow men or systems in vain.

    Love,

    John

  10. John Kaniecki said

    Angel,

    Hi hope you are well.

    I do not know why you assume Prodigal is a muslim. I have a friend who talks the same way as he does and is an aganostic. Your allegations are not based on facts.

    There is much wrong with the state of Isreal. One day at a war protest I was talking to a Jewish person. He told me his religion and Zionism are not the same.

    Love,

    John

  11. Diane said

    John,
    Anja openly mocks Christ and rejects His Gospel as fairy tales. If the Holy Spirit was drawing her to Jesus you wouldnt hear these blasphemies against Him. She can answer for herself.

    Anja, what are your motives for coming here since you dont believe Jesus is the Christ?

  12. John Kaniecki said

    Diane,

    Paul openly persecuted the Church before his conversion so there is hope for anyone.

    Love,

    John

  13. John Kaniecki said

    Diane,

    I remember once I brought this man to church. He said another member “I have people who go to church.” Then the member said, “Well we love you.” What an excellent witness.

    Anaja we do indeed Love you and invite you to learn more about Jesus and what He really stands for.

    Love,

    John

  14. Diane said

    John, I didnt say there is no hope for Anja. Using your analogy of Paul, Paul didnt get saved in a gathering of believers tolerating his mockery, but he was saved on the road to Damascus when God knocked him off his horse, blinded him and then later sent Ananias.

    Just as Elymas the sorcerer withstood Barnabas and Paul to turn the proconsul away from the faith in Christ, Anja withstands the testimony of Christ and can cause those seeking Christ to believe a lie.

    If she’s here to mock, then let her answer valid questions asked of her.

  15. Diane said

    John
    people who OPENLY mocked Jesus, werent His Ekklesia. You are confusing seeker sensitive evangelism, with the Gospel and the work of the Holy Spirit. If God is drawing her, He Himself will chastise her, and in His time bring her to repentance.

  16. Job said

    Diane and John:

    It was my fault for allowing Anja to post here. That error has been permanently corrected.

  17. The Prodigal Son said

    John… ~~~ ~~~ I must agree w/ Diane on this one… Firstly, Anja would not be too likely to enter a Church in the first place… but just say she walked into your church with a huge pentagram on her shirt, preaching witchcraft, saying that Jesus was a myth… would you still be ecstatic ? ~~~ ~~~ Anja has already heard the good news… and REJECTED IT ! Do you think it’s a good idea to welcome and appreciate the ‘unique perspective’ of an anti-Christ ? ~~~ ~~~ “If anyone comes to you and does not bring this doctrine (of the Incarnation of Christ), do not recieve him into your house nor greet him; for he who greets him shares in his evil deeds.” – II John :10, 11… also see Titus 3:10, 11 ~~~ ~~~ Any problems any ‘church’ may have is not a legitimate reason to reject Christ ! Why allow the actions of corrupt usurpers to come between you and the Lord ?… To Anja I would say, “The fool says in his heart, ‘there is no God.’ ” – Psalm 13:1…

  18. John Kaniecki said

    Job,

    Hi hope you are well.

    I really don’t know why Anja was banished unless I missed something.

    You tolerate people arguing all sorts anti christian people to come here and speak their mind. Remember Karl, the way he carried on and on. Not only was he rude and offensive but he was beligerent and posted long obnoxious posts.

    Regardless it is your blog and I respect and support your decision.

    Love,

    John

  19. Diane said

    John
    Karl didnt deny the existence of Christ, he argued against the faithfulness of protestants.

  20. angelpurplewings said

    Wow, I am so sad.

    I have the heart of an evangelist. I want to reach the lost.

    Removing Anja means I cannot communicate with her, and help her.

    Job, please consider giving her my email so she can contact me, if she needs to talk.

    Thank you.
    angel

  21. John Kaniecki said

    Diane,

    Hi hope you are well.

    Karl is just one among many that have appeared here. It is obvious to me that he argued a false gospel and thus he served another God.

    1 Timothy 1:3-4 “As I besought the to abide still at Ephesus, when I went to Macedonia, that thou mightest charge some that they teach no other doctrine. Neither give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which minister questions, rather than godly edifying which is in faith: so do.”

    This scripture teaches that

    1. There is a correct and incorrect doctrine.
    2. Christians are responsible to tell others to teach no other doctrine.

    Now there is a difference to people who are Christians and people who are not.

    Christians adhere to the teachings of God as recorded in the Bible. Those who do not profess Christ obviously do not.

    1 Corinthians 5:9-11 “I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators: yet not altogether the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolators, for then must ye needs go out of the world. But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.”

    How does this apply to Anja and Karl in our discussion. Karl claims to be a brother and follower of Christ. Yet he keeps not the Word of God but pursues falsehood. Karl needs to be rebuked.

    Anja makes no such claim at all. She is an unbeliever and she acts like a person of the world. How could we evangelize such an individual if we kept not there company. Is she wrong? Yes, without a doubt. Yet she should not be rebuked but instructed instead.

    You see there are two standards. One for those in Christ and one for those out of Christ. Therefore when Karl comes with his nonsense, he does harm because he claims to be a Christian.

    Let me emphasize that I believe that we would all take different positions on different subjects the Bible teaches on. Baptism for salvation, speaking in tongues and the oneness of God are three things that I know have been disputed by Christians on this blog.

    Love,

    John

  22. Diane said

    John
    concerning Karl, God knows you do not know all there is to know about Him, and never will this side of heaven. You have made some heretical statements about ‘knowing the pain that Christ suffered because you were there when He died…’. That doesnt mean youre not born again, it means youre wrong. Your doctrine is not heresy free.

    Where did I say we’re not to keep company with the world? You know very well that I have reached out to many different people coming here, who were sandblasted and bullied by others.

    My concern with Anja was stated clearly in comment #14. It is wrong, in my opinion, to ignore continuously, points I make to you in our discussions. Ive had these discussions with you in the past where you completely ignore scriptural principals Ive made simply because my comments didnt have a chp# in front of it.
    Jesus didnt go around saying ‘Isaiah chp 60 verse two’, He simply said ‘it is written’. Either it is the truth and needs to be addressed or it is not.

    Do you care to address the comments I made in 14 & 15?

  23. The Prodigal Son said

    John… ~~~ ~~~ You have a good heart, my man… sadly you are of the minority. I wish there were more like you. ~~~ ~~~ The passage fr. I Cor. you quoted addresses primarily sexual immorality… in and out of the Church. We of course, from time to time must go out of the Church and into the world… God will judge the world, not us… but in the Church – we are to measure and hold each other accountable for our actions, and if necessary excommunicate offenders… ~~~ ~~~ Do you consider this place to be a Church, or a part of the world ? Your earlier comments made me think you do… so you ought to have continued w/ verses 5:12, 13 – “For what have I with judging those who are outside ? Do you not judge those who are inside ? But those who are outside God judges. Therefore put away from yourselves the evil person.”… ~~~ ~~~ If you are called to do so, go OUTSIDE to *her* website… here – she is subject to our judgement.

  24. John Kaniecki said

    Diane,

    Regarding comments 14 and 15 I really didn’t see where her mockery was. Unfortunately I can’t refer to her comments as they were taken away. I do recall her calling the story of Jesus a fable. But her comments were no more or less anti Christ than others here.

    Galatians 2:20 “I am crucified with Christ..”
    Also read Romans 6 especially verse 3.

    In Ephesians Paul refers to the mystery of the faith. Man (especially European man) likes to compartmentalize and lable things. Some things are beyond our comprehension and always will be. God won’t be fit in a box no more than the physical temple couldn’t contain him.

    As far as my heresy I’ll let Jesus decide upon that, he is my Judge after all. And what a comforting thought that is!!

    I am glad you are paying careful attention to my statements. They are not made without thought on the matter. In fact this is an excellent forum where I can present my opinions and ideas on almost any matter. I use my full name because I am not ashamed of having Jesus as Lord or what I believe in. I must give Job many many thanks for his tolerence on the blog because I am certain that he doesn’t agree with all that I say.

    As regarding ignoring your principles if I have I am sorry and it was not intentional. Sometimes we say things that we think are clear and they aren’t to other. I respect scripture above all because it is by God’s Word that we will be judged. In fact I respect scripture even when I think the other person is wrong in their application of that scripture. For example in the long extended debate people had with the oneness of God. Why both sides presented many scriptures both way. But there is one Truth they both couldn’t be right could they? Yet I could appreciate both sides.

    Jesus many times said “It is written,” Ephesians 6 tells us that our weapon is the Word of the Spirit. We all need to sharpen our weapons! Knowing what the Word of God says is good. Being able to show your exact conclusions proven by Scripture is excellent.

    Now regarding the Catholic Church and Karl it is a simple thing to prove that that organization puts tradition above the Word of God. There is no salvation in lies!

    Finally there is a Grateful Dead song which asks “What will be the answer to the answer man?”

    We are snowed in here in New Jersey.

    Love,

    John

  25. The Prodigal Son said

    P.S. … ~~~ ~~~And what of… the PENTAGRAM… would you have this place slathered with such a symbol ? Would an inverted Cross bother you ? How about an image of Satan ? ~~~ ~~~ The pentagram (an ancient symbol) is SYMBOLIC of EVIL and DARKNESS… and I think Anja knows that (she chose it). I wouldn’t be too shocked if she is a ‘Wiccan’… ~~~ ~~~ [Pentagram] + [Coven] = Witch.

  26. John Kaniecki said

    Prodigal,

    Hi hope you are well.

    The church is not a building it is the called out. If someone professes to be a Christian I must hold them to the standard of the Word. If they do not profess that I cannot hold them to something they don’t accept as true.

    I did go to her her website by the way.

    I Corinthians 5:13 talks about an evil person inside the church.

    Love,

    John

  27. Diane said

    John
    you weren’t physically there experiencing the sufferings of Christ when Christ was crucified, nor did you use figurative language referring to all born again believers. You clearly stated YOU knew how much He suffered because YOU were there. So Karl can also rest assured it is Christ and not you that will judge him as well. Disagree with him all day, but one thing is certain, he did not flippantly mock our Lord.
    ____________________

    The truth of God, rightly understood is our weapon, not taking passages out of context, and misapplying them while congratulating yourself because you said chp & vs; the devil can do as much and merely quoting without the help of the Holy Spirit can blind us.

    If youre going to ask me a question, it is only fair that you respond to what Ive actually said (which you havent done yet). I believe you know those passages are not made up, and you can find them easily with a concordance.

    I have a son in New Jersey coming home in a couple of days, so hopefully he wont be snowed in.

    Diane

  28. John Kaniecki said

    Diane,

    Hope you are well.

    I don’t see any questions I missed so help me out.

    Romans 2:4 “Or despiseth thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance.”

    Love,

    John

  29. Diane said

    I should have said your original comments directed to me implied youve judged my question to another person to be wrong, and though I state my concerns and beliefs, backing it with reasonable examples from scripture, you continue to refuse to acknowledge any validity in what Ive said.

    Jesus has this to say …
    “No one can come to Me unless the Father Who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day. It is written in the prophets, ‘And they shall all be taught by God.’ Therefore everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me.”

    I do believe in the work of the Holy Spirit for genuine repentance and salvation. There are those who read here that we dont know of, that satan would love to keep blinded and confused with people who have made the choice to purposely attack the very existence of Christ. Satan would love to snatch the Word as soon as it is sown.

    I believe the example I gave of Elymas, Barnabas and Paul explains my motivation quite clearly. Also Paul’s conversion is also an example of what I believe about how God goes about bringing people to a knowledge of Him.

  30. John Kaniecki said

    Diane,

    Hi hope you are well.

    I reread Paul’s encounter with Elymas and I can accept your not willing to discuss matters with Anja based on that. We are clearly told not to cast our pearls before swine.

    However from personal experience I have twice encountered people who wanted to make a mockery of myself and the gospel and wound up listening to me for a long while.

    Elymas in particular was trying to persuade someone whom Paul was teaching not to obey the gospel.

    I find this is a place where I can learn others points of views. For example I was totally clueless about Oneness until it was hotly debated here.

    Finally from Anjas own blog it seems she desired interaction. As for her motives I cannot tell.

    Love,

    John

  31. Diane said

    John
    I agree, Ive been in discussions where a person wanted to literally curse me, but the Holy Spirit would move in such a way that the person would end up in tears, broken over some sin in their past.

    I have experienced hardened unbelievers who still have a certain level of respect for God and Christ.

    If she wanted to genuinely interact she had the opportunity to do so, but she made the choice to attack.

  32. Diane said

    Just to let you know, I pray the Lord bless your discussions with her…

    Diane

  33. The Prodigal Son said

    John… ~~~ ~~~ What/where is the Church ?… How does one find it ? You said you brought a person to Church… how can you tell (re: I Cor. 5:12, 13) who is inside of the Church and who is outside of the Church ? What if they are lying to you ? ~~~ ~~~ What of Baptism, John ?… What of the Eucharist ? ~~~ ~~~

  34. The Prodigal Son said

    I referenced I Cor. 5:12, 13 earlier, and you replied, that it “talks of an evil person inside the Church.”… now let’s go back to I Cor. 5:2-5, which is written to the CHURCH of Corinth re: that evil person… “And you are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he who has done this dee might be taken away from among you. For I indeed, as absent in body but present in spirit, have already judged (as though I were present) him who has so done this deed. In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when you are gathered together, along with my spirit, withd the power of the Lord Jesus Christ, deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.” ~~~ ~~~ Now how could he be delivered to Satan if there was nowhere to be delivered from ? Say you wanted to deliver me to Satan… could you ?

  35. John Kaniecki said

    Prodigal,

    Hi hope you are well.

    The word church in the Bible means the called out. Sometimes I use it to refer to the building as I was brought up in the Catholic faith.

    To begin to understand how one enters the Church one must examine the conversions of non believers. These occur in the book of Acts.

    Acts 2 Penetcost Day
    Acts 8 The eunich
    Acts 9 + 22 Paul
    Acts 10 Cornelius
    Acts 16 Lydia and her household
    Acts 16 The Philipian Jailer
    Acts 18 Crispus and Corinthians
    Acts 19 Ephesians who had only John’s baptism

    Some people claim that one accepts Christ.
    Some people claim that one says a sinner’s prayer.
    Others say one must do nothing.

    I would contend a person needs to be baptized. This enters one into the Chruch see First Corinthians 12:13

    As regarding the exact nature of baptism and all that it entails we can discuss at a later date.

    I would ask that any one discussing this matter read the scriptures in Acts before.

    Love,

    John

  36. I thought Job was right. There has to be limits. Anyone coming in mocking us all with pentagrams and such should be shown the door as any good usher would in church. You wouldn’t throw out a seeker. If someone called your pastor an idiot then the ushers should help that person out of the building.
    When gays come into churches to vandalize and desecrate then they should be thrown out. If one comes in to listen and get saved then we all would celebrate. You can be uncompromising with the scripture yet patient with those who are unbelievers. It doesn’t mean we have to make ourselves playmats.
    I’ve seen war protesters come to military bases and denied entry. That is logical and appropriate.
    If I were to make posts on a pro-choice website being as strong a pro-lifer as I am I would expect to be barred.

  37. The Prodigal Son said

    John… ~~~ ~~~ Sounds like you’re one of the ones who believe in ‘Church-less’ Christianity, or ‘solara scriptura’… understand that these are relatively new ideas… and lead people into error… ~~~ ~~~ The Church is the body of TRUE believers TOGETHER in fellowship… A group of believers who – together – make up the body of Christ. Ekklesia also means, ‘the assembly’, and in Acts 9:31, we see the first use of the word in the plural form, showing that the Church is not invisible… but consists of visible local communities united in faith, doctrine, worship, and authority… these faithful are called out of the world to be the Bride of Christ, the New Israel, the ark of Salvation… Through the Church, Christians are united to Christ and to each other. In this community, the believer recieves the Grace of God through the sacraments and hears the TRUTH of the Gospel. This mystical transformation of people into one body in Christ takes place in the Eucharist, John !

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