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Does Israel Have The Right To Exist?

Posted by Job on January 7, 2009

That was the question posed to the Jerusalem Post columnist and Jewish intellectual David Forman by a liberal Christian group. As Forman is also liberal, they were expecting the usual apologies, defensive postures, and equivocations that the modern left makes regarding Israel. This is in contrast with, say, 60 years ago, when the position of the left was to defend a much more liberal – indeed socialist – Israel government from amillennial conservative mainline Protestants and Roman Catholics (this was before the rise of the religious right and its alliance with the conservatives that now in large part control Israel, even when the Labor Party is in power … the modern Israeli Labor Party is not the Labor Party of Golda Meir).

Well these liberal Christians were shocked when Forman launched into a vigorous stance on Israel that could have just as easily come from the conservative Jews (and Christians) that these liberal Christians obviously do not dialogue with. Forman’s strongest argument was that modern Israel has as much right to exist as any other nation, including the United States, and furthermore that Israel was created by the United Nations (the only nation that I am aware of that has that designation). Unfortunately, Forman went on to use some much weaker arguments, including some that amount to little more than Jewish propaganda.

This is my personal answer to the question that was posed to Forman and is often asked, especially in times such as this when Israel finds itself using military action. Iin a true or absolute sense, what we mean when we use the term “rights” is something that only comes from God. In that context, the only nation (and by that I mean nation – state, a sovereign political entity  associated with a general area of land) that ever had the right to exist was Old Testament Israel.

As for other nations in other places and times, well we know from Romans 13 and 14 that they are good things, gifts to humankind from God’s common place. We also know that other nations have been used by God to accomplish His purposes. God used Egypt, for instance, to make Israel into a people. He used Babylon and Assyria to judge Judah and Israel. The Roman Empire’s vast network of roads, political stability, and common Greek language facilitated the speedy spread of the gospel and the preservation of the New Testament. (God also used the Roman Empire to judge the Jewish people for their rejection of Jesus Christ: read Matthew 24 and then consider the destruction of the temple in 70 AD and the destruction of Jerusalem and scattering of the Jews in 132 AD). And our current nation, America, has been very important in A) strengthening the vital free church tradition, B) global missions, and C) protecting Jews, including but not limited to taking in refugees and supporting the modern state of Israel.

But the much good that many nations have done before the eyes of the Lord throughout history does not mean that any particular one had or a right to exist. That would imply that A) such a nation was created by an act of God as was Old Testament Israel and B) that God mediated either through prophets or His Son Jesus Christ a covenant with that nation. In other words, such a nation would have been a function of special grace and not common grace. It is my contention that only Old Testament Israel met either the conditions A) or B), let alone both of them. As such, no other nation has had a “right'” to exist.

As I have stated earlier, it is my proposal that Old Testament Israel’s right to exist as a unique sovereign political entity tied to the land that was formerly Canaan ended by virtue of their breaking the Sinai covenant, and such happened just as the book of Deuteronomy and the classical prophets that warned Israel’s kings and people largely based on Deuteronomy said that it would, first in 721 BC and then in 586 BC. For this nation – state to be re – established with a similar right to exist, whether in Canaan or anywhere else, would have required A) another miraculous act of God, B) another covenant of God, C) another prophet to mediate this covenant, and D) another purpose. Those who assert that this is the case, well the burden is on them to provide evidence of A, B, C, and D. Or failing that, Biblical evidence predicting that such a thing would happen.

I am aware of the many Bible passages that predict that the Jews would return to Israel. But none of those passages to my knowledge predicted that Israel would be re – established to the position that it held before, as a special nation with a special status by virtue of God’s special grace, and in particular with a specific role in human redemption or salvation history. As a matter of fact, the idea that Israel would be re – established in something closely resembling the form or character of the Sinai covenant nation – state caused the Jews much confusion and consternation, and was the cause of the belief that the Messiah would set up an earthly kingdom. Jesus Christ’s refusal to even aspire to such a thing was a key reason why He was rejected, and is still rejected by all but Messianic Jews to this day. But my reading of the Bible, especially Hebrews 1:1-4, would seem to preclude the idea that God would have created or had a use for a covenant nation in the last days, a period or dispensation that the New Testament made clear began with the ending of Jesus Christ’s earthly ministry, His crucifixion, resurrection, and ascension to the right Hand of the Father.

That said, as I mentioned earlier, nations are clearly intended by God as a good thing. It is not a bad thing when nations are created, and it is a very bad thing when nations that are basically decent and moral fall. As all nations are certainly imperfect, claiming that Israel is anything but an orderly, decent and moral nation is a lie. So, Israel’s existence is a good thing that restrains evil. And yes, I do consider Israel’s existence as a work of God’s providence – if not an act of God’s special creation like Old Testament Israel and the church – because Bible passages speak of a gathering of Jews in the land of Israel having great endtimes significance. (Keep in mind, I am a millennialist, even if it is postmillennial.) I merely reject the notion that those prophecies require a sovereign Israel – especially one run by a constitutional democratic republic form of government that is the product of human paganism and philosophy – to be carried out. After all, when Jews returned to Israel the first time – a precondition for the birth of Jesus Christ – they were under Medo – Persian domination, and Jesus Christ Himself was born to an Israeli people under Roman domination. So, the fulfillment of the revelant eschatological passages, including the famous ones in Ezekiel that are so popular with dispensational premillennialists, do not require that Jews have a sovereign state in Israel. It merely requires that a large number of Jews live in Israel.

Still, this does not make Israel’s formation or existence illegitimate. Realize that nations do not have a “legitimate” way of forming in the first place. They simply exist. The idea that Israel was formed on stolen land … well name the nation that exists today on land that did not belong to some other people group or political entity in times past. Also, Israel’s existence in some form has been endorsed by the United Nations, which let us face it is the highest human authority on the planet today, and likely will be until the beast, the anti – Christ takes power. (Being millennialist, I reject amillennial notions that the anti – Christ will be an institution or body like the Roman Catholic Church, but rather that the beast will be as Daniel, Revelation, and 2 Thessalonians states: a literal human being.)

What makes a nation’s continued existence legitimate? The ability and willingness to govern and defend itself. A nation that cannot or will not govern or defend itself … well that nation will fall and either be dominated by another nation or just descend into general anarchy and with it end any question of its legitimacy. So Israel must govern and defend itself even if it means defying the international community. Governing itself means capturing, imprisoning, and killing the Palestinian criminals that are murdering its citizens. Defending itself means taking definite action against Syria, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Lebanon and other nations that are funding and arming the Palestinian criminals. Is there such a thing as being excessive, cruel, or unwise in governing and defending itself? Of course, and Israel has been at times. In my opinion, the primary cause of this is relying on air strikes, knowing full well that it will both endanger innocent civilians while accomplishing relatively little, rather than ground troops and soldiers. Do not be deceived: Israel does this only because of politics and public relations. But Israel’s mistakes and unwise policies in the couse of governing and defending itself does not remove the fact that Israel has the responsibility to do so. Israel is not committing a sin against God’s common grace by governing and defending itself. Rather, it is doing so if they refuse.

So, should Christians support the state of Israel? Of course. Romans 13:1-4a reads “Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God. Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation. For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same. For he is the minister of God to thee for good.” So Christians should support every stable, functional, basically moral government, and also support the establishment of the same where it does not exist. (Please note: this does not mean that we should be in the business of going to war with sovereign nations and occupying them in the interests of establishing a government that is more to our liking, or support such endeavors.) Israel is a stable, functional, basically decent government, and we should support it in being so and support its continuing to be so. However, this is not necessarily special with regards to Israel (the Biblical imperative to pray for the peace of Jerusalem notwithstanding) but with all nations, including our own. Which means that we should resist our own nation’s slide into corruption and lawlessness.

So in absolute terms with respect to a special position before God, Israel has no special right to exist that any Christian need respect as was the case with Old Testament Israel. But in relative terms with respect to every other nation that has ever existed, Israel does have rights that Christians should respect, and rights that Christians have an interest in seeing Israel stand up and defend. The fact that I have declared their conflict with the Palestinian population that resides within their borders to be intractable based on very legitimate considerations on the part of both the Palestinians and Israelis does not in any way alter this. Quite the contrary, living in this creation that has fallen into sin due to the sin of Adam means that just these sorts of issues will occur whether they are within nations, within families and marriages, or within an individual (please see Romans 7:7-25 for the individual conflict). I only hope and pray that Palestinians and Israelis handle this inevitable and intractable conflict with justice and dignity, and that more and more individual members of those respective populations accept salvation through Jesus Christ to aid them through their trials.

44 Responses to “Does Israel Have The Right To Exist?”

  1. theoldadam said

    …”I only hope and pray that Palestinians and Israelis handle this inevitable and intractable conflict with justice and dignity, and that more and more individual members of those respective populations accept salvation through Jesus Christ to aid them through their trials.”

    That is a good hope and prayer.

    I have a feeling that the situation over there will not be resolved peaceably and that the whole thing could literally blow up.

    Thanks be to God for Christ Jesus! He’s the only one that will be able to strighten that whole mess out (and the rest of this whole mess…the fallen world).

    Thanks!

  2. […] at Jesus Christology asks whether Israel has a right to exist as a nation. “it is my proposal that Old Testament Israel’s right to exist as a unique sovereign […]

  3. nan said

    they need to give those people their land back and stop lying

  4. eric said

    Anyone that blesses israel will be blessed and anyone that curse Israel will be cursed by God. — sounds familiar anyone?

    The rest of the world ought to just leave Israel alone to sort themselves. We do not know Gods plan but if we try to take away parts of the reborn Israel (Gaza as an example), then God will have something to say about it.

  5. The Prodigal Son said

    Dear Job…, ~~~ You said, “(Israel) governing itself means capturing, imprisoning and killing the Palestinian criminals that are murdering it’s citizens.” ~~~ O.k. fine… so tell me -were 80 odd children and 600 other men & women ALL responsible for the four (4 !) Israeli dead ? ~~~ But you also say that all Nations have the right to defend themselves… is not Palestine a Nation ? All of the supporters of the synagogue of satan (Rev. 2:9) will be quick to point out that the state of Israel was created by the U.N. in 1947 (but who created the U.N. ?), but therefore at the same time PALESTINE was designated & granted rights … maps were drawn – which can be veiwed by anyone on Wikipedia…

  6. The Prodigal Son said

    Look at the map of today… it is nothing less than unapologetic ethnic cleansing of REAL SEMITES (so who is anti-semetic ? another stolen term like ‘Israel’ & ‘Jew’) ~~~ So if Palestinians have the right to defend themselves (they do), and they act in self-defense (they do) then they are NOT murderers ! THEY ARE BEING MURDERED ! ~~~ Which they have been for more than 70 years… murdered and their houses, orchards and land stolen… does so-called ‘Israel’ have this right ? ~~~ Imagine your (Arab Semetic) family lived on the same land for centuries… now imagine that a group of caucasian whites (NOT SEMETIC) funded by the Rothschilds invade your land and immediately start killing and chasing people from their homes & property (which were promptly stolen)… Now – even though you are innocent, they’re coming for YOU, YOUR FAMILY & YOUR LAND… would you defend your family ?

  7. What about Romans 11, that the remnant shall be saved? Or, are you contending the covenant theology position that the Church is Israel’s remnant?

  8. The Prodigal Son said

    Job, I apologize… I thought you were the author of the article, now I realize you merely posted it ! Oops ! ~~~ Thank you for your patience with me… I do appreciate it. Anyhow, I thought I would post a few direct quotes from the Jewish Talmud… maybe these will wake someone the way they woke me ! ~~~ To view the Anti-Christ Talmud in it’s disgusting entirety, please visit : Come-and-Hear.com… ~~~ Please understand I am not racist… I do not hate anyone EXCEPT THE ENEMIES OF GOD… which He Himself revealed to us… those enemies of God – I hate with a perfect hatred ! ~~~ “If there come any unto you, and bring NOT this doctrine (that Jesus is the Christ) – recieve him NOT into your house, neither bid him Godspeed: for he that biddeth him Godspeed is partaker of his evil deeds.” … II John 10-11

  9. The Prodigal Son said

    “Who is a liar, but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ ? He is Anti-Christ, that denieth the Father, and the Son. Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath NOT the Father, but he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also” … I John 2:22-23 ~~~ ~~~ “Thus, ye have made the commandments of God of none effect by your tradition.” … “… teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.” … Matthew 15:6, 9 ~~~

  10. The Prodigal Son said

    Now, from the Talmud… ~~~ “Jews should rejoice, dress in white, and eat, drink and be merry at the death of a Christian. They should hate a Christian with utmost hatred, and consider him an enemy.” … Semahot Ch. 2, pg. 35 ~~~ ~~~ “Jews must destroy the books of the Christians, especially the New Testament.” … Shabbat 116a ~~~ ~~~ “It is the law to kill anyone who denies the Torah. The Christians belong to the denying ones of the Torah.” … 425 Hagah 425.5 Coschen Hamischphat ~~~ ~~~ “A Jew who kills a Christian commits no sin, but offers an acceptable sacrifice to God.” … Abhodah Zarah 26b Tosephoth ~~~ ~~~ “Extermination of a Christian is a necesary sacrifice to God.” … Zohar – II 43a

  11. The Prodigal Son said

    (cont.) … “When a Jew murders a Gentile, there will be no death penalty. What a Jew steals from a Gentile he may keep.” … Sanhedrin 57a ~~~ ~~~ “The Gentiles are outside the protection of the law, and God has exposed their money to Israel.” … Baba Kamma 37b ~~~ ~~~ “Jews may use subterfuges to circumvent a gentile.” … Baba Kamma 113a ~~~ ~~~ “All Gentile children are animals.” … Yebamoth 98a ~~~ ~~~ “Gentiles prefer sex with cows” … Abodah Zarah 22a, b ~~~ “Gentile girls are in a state of niddah (filth) from birth.” … Abodah Zarah 36b

  12. The Prodigal Son said

    … It also says such things like Jesus was a sorcerer who performed magic with His penis… and that He was the bastard son of a Roman Soldier… that Mother Mary was a hairdresser and a whore. ~~~ It also says it’s o.k. for a Rabbi to have sexual intercourse w/ a boy less than eight years old, or with a girl less than three (! 3 !) years… and if one has sex w/ a girl less than 3, she will still be a virgin because, “It’s like poking the eye with the finger, and the tears come again and again..” ~~~ and that women are in a state of niddah (filth) for the whole duration of their menstrual period, and a week after… during this time they defile everything that they touch… also says Rabbis, when performing ritual circumcision must suck the blood from the baby boy’s penis – with their MOUTHS ! (I kid you not !) ~~~ ~~~ That only barely scratches the surface of this nullification of the commandments of God which Jesus railed against !

  13. theoldadam said

    Nan,

    Wherever you are living right now…someone else lived before you,, and was conquered or had to leave or sold out , or whatever.

    How would you like it if someone told you to get out and stop lying?

    – Steve

  14. The Prodigal Son said

    Dear Eric, you said, “Anyone that blesses Israel will be blessed, and anyone that curses Israel will be cursed by God.” ~~~ You are 100% correct ! But you are mistaken regarding WHO Israel is… God Himself came to bring a New Covenant… a new deal if you will. The new deal is through Christ ONLY ! Therefore since then Christians are Israel, whether Jew or Gentile… the remnant refers to Paul and a few others who abandoned the Talmudic Judaism of that time, in order to follow Christ… thereby setting an example for all other ‘jews’ to follow, but of the ‘old’ Israel, the remnant has already been fulfilled… The New Israel consists of the followers of Christ, of course, and was born in one day !

  15. The Prodigal Son said

    Dear Job, everyone… ~~~ I would like to ask you if you have ever heard of ‘Naturei Karta’ ? They are a group of Jews in New York… They run a website called ‘Jews Against Zionism’… VERY informative site – everyone should check it out ! Especially the WWII Holocaust material (because what most think is reality is actually a carefully constructed information matrix, that is a mountain of lies going back to the 1800s.) ~~~ Anyhow, Naturei Karta say that they do NOT want to go to Israel… They say Israel should not exist ! They say that Jews are specifically forbidden by God to return & govern in the Holy Land – and ESPECIALLY FORBIDDEN to rebuild the Temple. ~~~ This is the reason for the ‘diaspora’ ! They say that Jews are supposed to subject themselves to the Gentile Governments and WAIT for God to return… Many REAL God-fearing Jews are doing just that, and wont go anywhere near ‘Israel’ because they believe that the present day state of ‘Israel’ will once again bring the wrath of God upon them !

  16. […] Does Israel Have The Right To Exist? […]

  17. Devon said

    The talmud is completely irrelevant?? Who cares what some Jews said centuries ago??

    The talmud means about as much to me as Das Kapital or the Quran or Mein Kampf…its not binding on me…if people want to believe lies out our Lord and Savior, that is their own depraved right..

    Muslims every day in the billions blaspheme Christ by denying his deity and calling ‘shirk’ the worst of sins…I can point out countless items in the Quran and Hadiths that are just as bad as the Talmud…

    What matters is that we are praying for those that are lost….Jesus said that before they would hate us , they would hate him..and so it goes…

    The problem is Prodigal is that you are blatant anti semite…you have an obscene focus and hatred on Jews…you see every evil on earth as a Jewish Conspiracy..whether it is Mumbai or the Russian invasion of Georgia, your ilk (Brother Nathan) blame the Jews for everything…

    Take a step back and give your head a shake and learn this….Satan doesn’t discriminate….he hates everyone equally and he uses all tribes and colors and ethnic communities to work his evil…get that through your head…Ethnic Jews are no worse or better then any other people…we are all tainted by the fall in the garden!

  18. John Kaniecki said

    Devon,

    Hi hope you are well.

    A very good entry.

    Prodigal Son,

    I have looked into conspiracy theories. Catholics, Masons, Jews, Illumanati, etc, they are all blamed. Prodigal Son what position do you hold that you know these things for certainty? It is my humble perception there is truth and lies in most if not all but a handful of conspiracy theories.

    Also a Christian is to be gentle and kind. Why do you attack? That just diminishes what you are saying.

    The bottom line is either you are with God or you are not with God. John 14:6 “I am the way, the truth and the life. No one comes to the father except by me.” Those are not my words those are Jesus’ words.

    I pray for peace in this world. But I know the Bible teaches there will be war until the return of Christ. Devon is right to concentrate on the spiritual battle. That is where ultimately the victory will be won.

    I pray for the Isreali’s and Palestinians to get along peacefully. I pray more fervently that some will come to Christ. I think my second prayer is the only one that is going to be answered in the sin cursed world.

    Love,

    John

  19. The Prodigal Son said

    Devon… ~~~ The Talmud is irrelevant ?!? Not to be insulting, but you obviously don’t have a clue ! ~~~ Das Kapital, Meim Kampf, and yes the Qu’aran ARE largely irrelevant to North Americans… Do NAZIS run America ? Do Muslims make laws that we need fear ?… * NO ! * ~~~ These fake ‘Jews’ however, control EVERYTHING in America… T.V., newspapers, radio, magazines, Hollywood, school textbooks… and our very Governments ! ~~~ That is the significance of the Talmud in our lives – they are among us, and they hate us ! I don’t hate anyone… but I hate LIES, AND LIARS, and MURDERERS, and CHILD MOLESTERS ! I hate them with a PERFECT HATE – for they are the enemies of God ! ~~~ Did Jesus not warn us to beware the leaven of the Pharisees ?… The leaven is the Talmud ! The Talmud is HERE !

  20. The Prodigal Son said

    Now, this is a discussion about ‘Israel’… Israel is a self-proclaimed ‘Jewish’ state… these ‘Jewish’ people hold as the ultimate religious authority – THE TALMUD. ~~~ The Talmud teaches ‘Jews’ that all of us Gentiles are subhuman, and that before their false god they may kill us Gentiles with impunity, so this CLEARLY RELATES to how they treat other human-beings (whom they do not consider to BE human-beings !)

  21. The Prodigal Son said

    … “Our race is the master race. We are divine gods on this planet. We are as different to the inferior races as they are from insects. In fact – compared to our race, other races are beasts and animals – cattle at best. Other races are considered as human excrement. Our destiny is to rule over the inferior races. Our earthly kingdom will be ruled over by our leader with a rod of iron. The masses will lick our feet and serve us as slaves.” …. ~~~ ~~~ Menachem Begin – Former Israeli Prime Minister… ~~~ ~~~

  22. The Prodigal Son said

    … “We Jews – we are the destroyers, and will remain the destroyers. Nothing you can do will meet our demands and needs. We will forever destroy, because we want a world of our own.” … Maurice Samuel – in his book entitled : ‘You Gentiles’… pg. 155… ~~~ ~~~ … “Maybe they will start to tremble, to fear our madness instead of admiring our nobility. Let them tremble, let them call us a mad state. Let them understand that we are a savage country, dangerous to our surroundings, not normal, that we might go wild, that we might start WWIII – JUST LIKE THAT, or that we might one day go crazy.” … & … “We, the Jewish people control America, and the Americans know it.” … – Ariel Sharon… Israeli Prime Minister…A.K.A. ‘Akin the Prince’ … ~~~ ~~~ … “Give me control over a nation’s money… and I care not who makes the laws.” – Lord (Jacob) Rothschild

  23. The Prodigal Son said

    … “Surely thou wilt slay the wicked, O God: Depart from me therefore, ye bloody men. For they speak against thee wickedly, and take thy name in vain.” ~~~ ~~~ … “Do I not hate them, O Lord that hate thee ? And am I not grieved with those that rise up against thee ? I hate them with a perfect hatred: I count them mine enemies.” …~~~ ~~~ … “Search me, O God, and know my heart: Try me, and know my thoughts: and see if there be any wicked way in me, and lead me in the way everlasting.” … ~~~ ~~~ Psalm 139:19-24 ~~~ ~~~ “Hope has two children… The first is anger at the way things are. The second is the courage to do something about it.” … – St. Augustine… ~~~ ~~~ … “Strictly speaking, it is incorrect to call an ancient Israelite a Jew – or to call a contemporary Jew an Israelite or Hebrew.”… – The Jewish Almanac (1980 edition…)

  24. Devon said

    Prodigal Son, again you are generalizing..Yes, the Jewish people for their small size certainly do occupy many important positions…but so what? I don’t care about what a person’s ethnicity is…i care about what they believe….I am well aware of what some Jews feel about us the Body of Christ and our Lord and Savior…again, it isn’t a question of their jewishness but a question of their ideology..

    Their are a tonne of gentiles that hate us too…and who have tremendous power…

    If your going to hate anybody, hate Satan…he is the one that perverts Jews and Gentiles to do awful things…

    Your going down a trail that isn’t healthly….it would be like me blaming and hating the Russians, Germans and Arabs and Persians for Marxism, Nazism, Sunnism and Shiaism….I don’t and a Christian should never do so…I do not hate people…I hate the various lies that lead them to hell…

    Even if every Jew on earth was evil and a radical secularist who hated Christ, I would still not hate them…i would hate the blindness on their eyes…..you need to be careful here Prodigal.

    If you feel so strongly about the Jewish People and their misdeeds, then I would suggest you spend a good deal of your time on your knees interceding for them….that will change your heart for them and help them….

  25. The Prodigal Son said

    Devon, ~~~ Please, then -let’s stop using the word ‘Jew’… It’s a made up word anyway (applied to JUDEANS – the Biblical people of Judea [a place] AND the JUDAHITES – the tribe of Judah [a race]), and it really isn’t fair to the REAL Children of Judah (who no one seems to care about !) ~~~ So let’s call them our poor, lost, anti-semetic, ‘Turkic/Khazar’, caucasian, GENTILE neighbors – who must get really freaked-out when they read Revelation 2:8-9… ~~~

  26. Devon said

    Prodigal son, conspiracy theories aside, whatever it is that you have against an ethnic group, the Hebrews, you need to pray about your attitude towards them and pray for their salvation..for the ones that need their Messiah…

  27. The Prodigal Son said

    DEVON ! ~~~ WIPE OFF YOUR GLASSES ! … I SAID, ~~~ THEY ARE *NOT* HEBREWS… ~~~ THEY ARE *NOT* ISRAEL… ~~~ THEY ARE *NOT* ‘JEWS’ !! ~~~ You can drop the act already… EVERYBODY KNOWS ! ~~~ So take your cries of ‘anti-semetism’, and ‘conspiracy theories’ and shove ’em, you schill ! (do you guys really think you’re fooling anybody ?)

  28. Devon said

    Who am I fooling? Am I part of some group that I am not aware of???

  29. The Prodigal Son said

    Devon, ~~~ Yes, as a matter of fact you ARE !… If you are an American, you are a member of a Noachide Nation… which is what America has become… ~~~ What is a Noachide Nation ? It is a country comprised mostly of Gentiles (Non-Jews) who are subject to the Jewish Seven Noachide Laws… These Seven Laws are *KINDA* like the Ten Commandments… Except they have their origin in the Jewish Babylonian Talmud from whence they were invented out of no-where via exegesis (see quotes above) ~~~ ~~~ They sound reasonable – at first !… They are 1) Do not commit blasphemy… 2) Do not worship idols… 3) Do not commit theft… 4) Do not commit murder… 5) Do not commit sexual immorality… 6) Establish Courts of Justice… 7) Do not eat the flesh of a living animal (? – who does that, anyway?)

  30. Devon said

    Nope…Canadian…Western Canadian..Albertan to be exact…and seriously, I havn’t a clue what you are on about?

  31. The Prodigal Son said

    Now I will break it down for you… The 1st Law… against blasphemy MEANS : Blasphemy against JUDAISM ONLY ! … The 2nd Law : against Idolatry MEANS : ALL RELIGION OTHER THAN JUDAISM IS CONSIDERED ‘IDOLATRY’ – ESPECIALLY CHRISTIANITY ! ~~~ ~~~ The punishment for breach of one of these laws is DEATH by beheading! So are you a Christian ? You are an idolater according to the Talmud…

  32. The Prodigal Son said

    Well, Koo roo koo koo, koo koo to you then ! ~~~ Have you heard of the Security and Prosperity Partnership of North America ?… the coming North American Union will subject Canadians & Mexicans to the ‘Terrorism’ Laws of the U.S. ~~~ They ALREADY have the power to arrest ANYONE in North America SANS Habeus Corpus, as well as detain that individual indefinitely – with NO JUDICIAL REVIEW… POOF ! – You’re gone, Goyim !

  33. The Prodigal Son said

    … “One additional element of greater severity is that violation of any one of the seven laws subjects the Noachide to capital punishment by decapitation.” … – Sanhedrin 57a, – Talmud ~~~ ~~~ … “The Torah maintains that the righteous of all nations have a place in the world to come… But not all religious Gentiles earn eternal life by virtue of observing their religion… and while the Christians do generally accept the Hebrew Bible as truly from God, many of them (those who accept the so-called divinity of Jesus) are idolaters according to the Torah, punishable by death, and certainly will NOT enjoy the world to come.”…. – Israeli Mechon-Mamre website… based in Jerusalem, June 26/2000…

  34. The Prodigal Son said

    … “A cultist is one who has a strong belief in the Bible, and the second-coming of Christ; who frequently attends Bible-studies; who has a high level of financial giving to a Christian cause; who home schools for their children; who has accumulated survival foods and has a strong belief in the 2nd amendment; and who distrusts big Government… … … Any of these might qualify a person as a cultist, but certainly more than one of these would cause us to look at this person as a threat, and his family as being in a risk-situation that qualifies for Government interference.” … – U.S. Attorney General Janet Reno…. on ’60 Minutes’, 1999

  35. John said

    Israel had a right to exist because it was legally voted into existance!

    People always forget history. there is no Arab Palestinian nationality. Palestine before the establishment of the modern state of Israel was part of the British Mandate. The British inherited Palestine when the Turks were defeated in WWI. And under the Turks it was part of the Ottoman Turkish empire and since the end of the Jewish Maccabean time, Palestine has been part of many empires but never an independent Arab State. It has always had a mixture of Arabs and Jews lving there as part of a larger empire.

    Gaza was part of Egypt and those Arabs who live in Gaza are Egyptian.

    The West Bank was part of Jordan, and those Arab’s who live in Jordan are of Jordanian Nationality.

    the creation of a specific Arab Palestinian Identity was the creation of the PLO and other Arab states for the express purposes of Propaganda in the International Press to give legitimacy to the claims of the PLO for all of Palestine.

    It is always disgusting when those people who call themselves Christians display their prejudical Bigotry and ignorance of history and the Rule of Law when it comes to Israel.

    They are quick to cloak their unbalanced hatred behind a cloak of saying well the modern State of Israel is not a fulfilment of Biblical Prophecy so that means they have no right to exist at all!

    They have a right to exist because the worlds nations agreed that they did. And that is what should be concentrated on!

    Also as a Christian you are obligated to support that party that attempts to abide by the rule of law and do what is right.

    Israel has always strived to do that. It has attempted to live in peace with its neighbors, but sadly its neighbors do not live by the rule of Law or attempt to do what is right.

    The express intent of HAMAS is the complete desctruction of Israel. Its part of their constitution! And while the casualties in Gaza are sad, when a people choose willingly to live in darkness then they reap from that darkness.

    You might want to listen to the son of the Hamas Leader who became a Christian and see what he has said about HAMAS.

    Stop cloaking your prejudice against Israel caused by your mis-handling of Scripture as a True Christian viewpoint!

    As it is not!

  36. John said

    also you might want to consider this:

    You do not want to be the person putting forward the idea that the State of Israel should not exist. or do anything to encourage the movement to destroy Israel!

    The hand of Judgment that God has always used against Israel or any other people who walk away from him for that matter is always a judgment from an evil source and then that evil source is also then judged.

    When you decide to become an active judge against National Israel you will also be judged for your persecution of them!

    You cannot claim to be of God and then promote judgment against Israel.

  37. The Prodigal Son said

    John… ~~~ Israel DOES have a right to exist – therefore SO DOES PALESTINE ! Israel was ‘created’ in 1947 by the U.N…. and at the same time maps were drawn outlining the borders of Israel… AS WERE PALESTINE’S BORDERS SO DESIGNATED ! These borders were NEVER respected by Israel. ~~~ Jerusalem was NOT part of Israel… it was designated as international territory… to be shared equally and peacefully by Christians, Muslims & Jews… so why have the Jews claimed it for their ‘capital city’ ? ~~~ You mention the “British mandate”, but strangely you did not mention the Balfour Declaration through which ‘Judea’ (which international Jewry called themselves before usurping the title of ‘Israel’ from God’s obvious ‘chosen ones’ – Christians !) was given Palestine in exchange for bringing America into WWI… which was written BEFORE the close of that war…

  38. The Prodigal Son said

    … The very first Prime Minister of ‘Israel’ – David Ben Gurion had this to say : … “The U.N. partition of a Jewish state being offered to us is NOT the Zionist objective. Within this area it is not possible to reach our historic goal (Protocols of the Elders of Zion). But it CAN serve as a decisive stage along the path to a greater Zionist implementation.”… he also revealed that : … “It’s NOT a matter of maintaining the status quo. We have to create adynamic state – oriented towards expansion.” ~~~ The Zionist goal was, is and always has been since the late 1800’s… the forced return of the lands of the middle east to the Biblical ‘promised land’ which the Jews term Eretz Yisrael… and which they forsee (just like in the Bible) will encompass the land from the Nile to the Euphrates… ~~~ ‘Greater Israel’ – indeed ! They’re not even real Jews… let alone the Biblical Children of Israel !

  39. The Prodigal Son said

    … and this from the Israeli newspaper Ha’aretz – which still exists today… ~~~ “We came to this country which was already populated by arabs, and we are establishing a Hebrew – that is – a Jewish state here. Jewish villages were built in the place of arab villages. You do not even know the names of these villages, and I do not blame you, because those geography books no longer exist. Not only do the books no longer exist, the arab villages are not there either. Nahalal arose in the place of Malalul; Givat in the place of Jibta; Sarid in the place of Haneifa and Kfar Yehoshua in the place of Tell Shamon. There is NOT ONE PLACE built in this country that did not have an arab population.”… – Moshe Dayan… addressing the Technion – April 4th/’69

  40. […] Does Israel Have The Right To Exist? […]

  41. […] Does Israel Have The Right To Exist? […]

  42. […] Does Israel Have The Right To Exist? […]

  43. […] Does Israel Have The Right To Exist? […]

  44. […] Does Israel Have The Right To Exist? Is Israel’s Heavy Handed Military Tactics In Gaza Justified? Whither The Promise of God That Israel Would Always Be A Nation? […]

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