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Do Evangelical Christians Consider The Plight Of The Palestinians?

Posted by Job on January 4, 2009

Please note: several updates and edits have been made.

Israel is well into their mini – invasion of the very same Gaza Strip that they abandoned just a few years ago. Now when the Gaza Strip was abandoned, critics claimed that militants would take control of the area and use it to plan and launch attacks on Israel. After years of the critics being proven right, Israel is yet again taking military action against the Gaza area to stop rockets from being fired on its population.

Israel has every right to defend itself. However, one of the conservative – leaning Jerusalem Post’s better columnists claims that the invasion has less to do with self defense than with politically positioning Israel’s current corrupt ruling coalition in advance of the February elections. Now one does not have to be as cynical as that columnist to question Israel’s motivations. And one certainly does not have to endorse the unabashedly Zionist views of this columnist – and of the Jerusalem Post that she represents – to wonder exactly what this military campaign will accomplish other than killing lots of people.

The best reason why one should ask themselves this question is to view this conflict from the side of the Palestinian people. Most Americans have been reared to view only the Israeli side. The first reason is that quite simply Israel is a very important American and western ally in that critical region. That alone will mean that our government and our mainstream media will inevitably side with Israel. The second reason is that many American Christians have been indoctrinated into regarding Israel as a natural ally for religious reasons which range from the premillennial dispensational movement (that I myself until recently belonged to) which considers Israel as belonging to the Jews alone and its rebirth as a fulfillment of endtimes prophecies to other Christians who simply prefer Judaism to Islam, and in particular conservatives who subscribe to the “Judeo – Christian western culture” ideology which conveniently casts aside inconvenient facts of religion and history.

So, the western – and evangelical Christian – line has been that the sole source of the Palestinian – Israel problem is Palestinian terror, and that were the Palestinians to renounce violence, all of the problems would end. And for 50% of the equation that is correct. It would end all of the problems for the Israelis. But for the Palestinians, I am not so certain.

Let us start, of course, with the premillennial dispensational position, which just happens to be the position of the majority of evangelical Christians, and furthermore heavily influences evangelicals that hold other endtimes beliefs. (Consider, for instance, that even amillennial evangelicals often subscribe to the “Judeo – Christian western culture” ideology and have made it a very important part of their dominionist thought.) Such people take the position that Palestinians have no basis for being in Israel in the first place, and should accept being dealt with however Israel chooses to. As these people oppose even a two state solution on terms as favorable to Israel as possible – as for them it would be a sin and an attempt to rebel against prophecy – if pressed they would ultimately admit that it would be best if the Palestinians simply left Israel. Best for who? Israel? Of course. Christians who hold these beliefs? Certainly. Palestinians? Of course not.

You see, there are MILLIONS of Palestinians, and they are FLAT BROKE. So … where would they go? Many float the “there is no such thing as a Palestinian” notion and proclaim the idea that the Palestinians are actually Jordanians. So, such people claim, the Palestinians could return to Jordan. Of the many problems with this thinking, the most pressing and relevant one is that the sovereign nation of Jordan disagrees with it. Or should I say that even if Jordan did agree that the Palestinians were in fact Jordanians, they are not going to accept being flooded with millions of impoverished “Jordanian” refugees – thereby adding to their own set of not insignificant problems – based on it. Incidentally, neither is Iran. Neither is Iraq, Neither is Syria. Neither is Lebanon. Neither is Egypt. Neither are any of the other places where the people who adhere to the “Israel belongs to the Jews and if the Palestinians don’t like it they can just leave!” mindset suggest as potential homes for the Palestinians. And why should they?

Now keep in mind that the dispensational evangelicals in question who wish to push the Palestinians off on the Egyptians, Jordanians, Syrians and Lebanese feel the same way. How many American evangelicals want to bring the Palestinians over here? To put them in South Dakota, Wyoming, or even Alaska? That’s what I thought. They could care less about where the Palestinians go. They just don’t want them in Israel and don’t want them over here. And the Judeo – Christian westerners don’t even want them in Europe. As a matter of fact, they want Europe to expel the Muslims and Arabs that they have already.

So the people suggesting that everything would be better if the Palestinians simply left en masse – or were Israel be bold and courageous enough to stand up for themselves by driving them out – either know full well that they are not proposing a workable solution or have not studied the situation enough to know that what they propose is not viable. Either way, they are no help to the situation, which means that they are no help to Israel or to the Jews. The truth is, though, that the people who believe that a solution for the Palestinians involves them remaining in Israel are not being much more realistic.

For instance, start with the common Israeli position that they offered to come together with the Palestinians to form a single state decades ago, and that the response of the Palestinians was to join the Arab/Muslim world in declaring war. So, the Palestinians are just a bunch of anti – Semite war mongerers, right? Well, that assumes that the Palestinians were ever obliged to accept forming a state with this huge influx of EUROPEANS and AMERICANS to begin with. Certain conservative Jews and their advocates would have you believe that Israel was basically barren, and that virtually all of the Palestinians are squatters from Jordan (and Syria, Lebanon, Egypt, and wherever) who barged into area simply to keep and drive the Jews out. Even were that version of history true, one of the many variants of the “there is no such thing as a Palestinian” idea, all that it means is that the Palestinians and Jews have an equal claim on the land, which is ZERO based on modern history.

Even if we accept the Old Testament version of events as history (which of course the Palestinians, being neither Jews or Christians, are not obliged to), that version tells us that the nation of Israel ceased to exist in 586 BC. Which means that for people who tend to reject Judaism and dispensational Christianity (which again would include Muslims by definition) even according to their own history and literature, the Jewish claim on the land ended in 586 BC.

Sure, some Jews did remain in Israel, and more repatriated from elsewhere to Israel, but only because the Babylonians, Medo – Persians, Greeks and Romans allowed them. What is also true is that after the Jewish – Roman War in 132 AD, the Roman Empire burned Jerusalem to the ground, renamed it, and made it a capital crime for any Jew to attempt to re – enter. The Roman Empire then fell and control of the land of Israel and Jerusalem went back and forth over the centuries to various entities – including but not limited to Arabs and Muslims – that weren’t very much more accommodating to the desires of any large number of Jews wishing to resettle Israel than the Roman Empire was.

And incidentally, after the Jewish – Roman War, there actually was no large organized international effort of Jews to resettle Israel in the first place. Until, that is, the Zionist movement, which was originally led by socialist – and largely atheist – Jews with nationalist and secular aims. A big motivating factor of the original Zionists: getting away from religious people. The original Zionists were trying to get away from both the Christians who were oppressing and discriminating against them and the religious Jews who were making the atheist and secular Jews outsiders in their own communities, and create a secular socialist state where there would be religious freedom and a commitment to equal rights and peace.

This is, of course, in direct contrast to modern Zionism, which is heavily religious in nature (both Jewish and Christian), militaristic, and hyper – capitalist. I am not afraid to say that the original Zionists would call the modern Zionists fascists, religious zealots (and hypocrites), and insist that they pick another name for themselves.

In any event, the original Zionist movement did get some Jews into Israel, but not that many. So the result was that immediately after World War II, Israel was just one of many colonies in the British Empire, and had a small Jewish population (that the Palestinians were not above targeting for murderous violence I should add). Also, the British liberated Israel after World War II not because of any special considerations for Israel, but because of the general consensus shortly after the great war that western colonial powers should grant self – rule and self – determination to its colonies.

Further, Israel was not chosen as the homeland for the Jews because of the Old Testament. Instead, after World War II, there was the thorny issue of what to do with the many Jewish refugees, and for that matter the Jewish diaspora in general. There was a huge number of displaced Jews, and there was also the general agreement that Jews needed a place to go to in case of persecution. Many Jews tried to flee Hitler’s Holocaust, but they had nowhere to go: no nation would accept them. The sad truth is that no one wanted them. No nation wanted the Jewish refugees, and in particular no nation wanted to be the place that would accept large numbers of Jews fleeing persecution or some other distress in another nation or nations.

Only a single nation, an African nation, offered to accept any appreciable number of Jews, and even that was almost certainly because they were promised international aid for doing so: basically accepting being paid off by people who preferred giving up large sums of money in exchange for not having to host current and future Jewish refugees. However, the Jewish community quite understandably did not find that destination to their liking.

So only then did the international community see Israel as the answer to the immediate problem of the Jewish refugees and the long term issue of a place where members of the international Jewish diaspora could flee persecution, as everyone agreed was needed after the Holocaust. (It is generally agreed that upon seeing that no nation was willing to take on a large number of Jewish refugees, Hitler saw that there would be no repercussions for fully pursuing his final solution. So no matter what history books claim, whatever motivations that various countries had for entering World War II, saving the Jews was not one of them.) Everyone agreed that the Jews needed a place to go if they had to, but no one wanted their country to be that place!

So the intent never was to recreate Biblical Israel to satisfy the religious aims of Jews or of dispensational Christians. (Quite the contrary, the Christian bodies with the most political influence at the time, Roman Catholics and mainline Protestants, were amillennial, and believe that the church has replaced Old Testament Israel. Church of England = amillennial.) Being a colony that England was about ready to wash its hands of anyway, Israel was merely the most convenient – and very likely the only practical – place to put them. 

So, this was fine for the international community, who got to rid themselves of their responsibility to the Jewish people plus not a few actual Jews. And it was fine for the Jewish people. Secular Jews saw it as Zionism achieved (and the Israeli nation was indeed secular and socialist initially), religious Jews saw it as being returned to their land of promise to await the Moshiach (Messiah). But no one can pretend that Israel being flooded by European Jews was good for the Palestinians living there in any way, shape or form. The Palestinians saw it for what it was from their perspective … an invasion. So the Israeli argument “we offered the Palestinians the opportunity to join us in a state and they chose war over peace” … well imagine if a flood of Mexicans, Kenyans or Soviets came to America offering to create a nation with us and had the United Nations backing them. What would we say? No, right?

Of course, it isn’t that simple, because the Palestinians did not have a sovereign state at that time. But it is equally true that the Palestinians were never obliged to accept what the British, the international community, and the flood of European Jews were attempting to impose on them.

There is still more. When Israel advocates mention the refusal of the Palestinians to join them in a state, they leave out some key details. Namely, that the state would have been Jewish. Any other way would have been unacceptable to the Jews, because it would have been impossible to ensure that Jewish citizens of that state would have religious freedom and be otherwise well treated, and it certainly would have been impossible to allow such a state to allow an open – ended stream of Jewish refugees from primarily Europe and America. Now it would have been technically possible to make such guarantees had Jews remained a numerical majority (allow me to point out that the number of Palestinians when added to the number of Arab/Muslim Israeli citizens far exceeds the number of Jews, and has for quite some time now!), but there was no way to ensure that it would happen. So, the Palestinians would have had to consent to living in a state that while technically secular and socialist would be by constitutionally mandated as Jewish and western, and would allow for Jews all over the world to come automatically be citizens with other Arabs and Muslims not having that same right. Thus, the Palestinians would have actually been better off by remaining a British colony than by joining this state.

And what of the two – state solution? Well, for starters, that presumes that a Palestinian accepts the right of a bunch of Europeans to grab half the land which they consider theirs. (Even if the land isn’t theirs, from their perspective it certainly does not belong to the Jews. Again, not only are Muslims not obliged to respect the Old Testament, but even according to the Old Testament Israel ceased to exist in 586 BC, and history records Jews being driven from a Jerusalem that they didn’t even control in 132 AD.) Just like no Frenchman, German, Irishman, or American would agree to those terms willingly, it is something that very few Palestinians would naturally be obliged to accept. Rather, it is something that they would acquiesce to over time after finally realizing that nothing better is forthcoming. So yes, a majority of Palestinians will accept a two – state solution even though they don’t really want one, because they prefer it to perpetual poverty and warfare.

The problem: what Israel has been offering is not a two state solution. Israel proposals include A) Israel getting more land and B) Israel getting the better land, including most of Jerusalem. Also, because of their very real and understandable security needs, this Palestinian “state” would have no real military, strict limitations on trade, and a lack of control over its ports and airspace. Those things would either be monitored by Israel or by “the international community.”  Now you can call such an entity a lot of things, but an actual sovereign state is not one of them. In truth, it is not much different than being a territory ultimately under the jurisdiction of another nation (or the U.N.) or for that matter being a colony allowed limited self – rule. And to keep on being redundant, the Palestinians could have had that with the British and without having to surrender the better part of the land to what they quite understandably view as European interlopers.

Israel and its many advocates keep trying to claim that the Palestinians would go from being poor people in refugee tents to being extremely wealthy and carefree with virtually unlimited international aid and also international military protection from any nation that tried to attack them (i.e. an irate Syria or Egypt that considered them traitors to the Arab/Muslim cause, or failing that simply wanting their land) but few Palestinians have been so easy to buy off with promises of becoming a permanent welfare state.

Now am I leaving out a lot, including things concerning anti – Semitism and radical Islam, and the pernicious influence of other Muslim/Arab states who truthfully could care less about the Palestinians and simply hate Jews and westerners? Of course. But if you think that even absent those influences the Palestinians would be happy to accept second class status within a Jewish state, or living in a phony Palestinian state that cannot so much as operate its own airport, then you are expecting the Palestinians to accept terms that no westerner, and especially no American, would accept for himself. After all, why did America fight the revolutionary war again? And why did the American south fight the Civil War? Enlarging that a little bit, the French, British, and Russians didn’t just roll over and accept being dominated by the Germans and Italians did they? And America and its allies didn’t just sit back and allow the Soviet Union to win the Cold War either.

But the Palestinians aren’t westerners. They aren’t western Europeans, and they certainly aren’t Americans. So, most Americans believe that the Palestinians should just accept whatever conditions that America and Israel impose upon them, and are shocked – SHOCKED – when Palestinians reject terms that no American (and no modern day Israeli Zionist) would accept. To go ahead and spell it out, the Palestinians refuse to accept that they are an inferior people with an inferior culture, and that they should just sit back and allow people who consider themselves to be a superior people with a superior culture (and religion) to dictate their fates as they please. And of course, Americans and Israelis get very upset when the Palestinians refuse to accept their inferiority or our superiority; that everything would be SO MUCH BETTER if they and everyone else in the world were to just obediently do everything that America (and Israel) tells it to do. You have one side seeking its best interests at the expense of the other side, and the other side pushing back just as certainly as the first side would were they in their position, indeed as the first side has in the past. After all, colonial America had a much better lot than the Palestinians currently do, and do not forget that their relative comfort in many cases came at the expense of slaves and native Americans (a fact that the British that the Americans rebelled against never ceased to point out).

So that is why this current military action by Israel, indeed any military or political action by Israel, is ultimately doomed to fail. It does not change the fact that there are millions of Palestinians in land that Israel ultimately controls. It does not change the fact that there is no place for these Palestinians to go even if they wanted to. They cannot become Israeli citizens because if they did Israel would no longer be a Jewish state but an Arab/Muslim state (with all that it entails, including at minimum but certainly not limited to no longer unconditionally accepting Jews), and “the Arab/Muslim world” will not take them in, nor should they be expected to. (They didn’t create this problem, they don’t support the current policy, so why should they solve it? Let the British, who created the problem, or the Americans, who so proudly unconditionally backs Israel, accept the Palestinians. Of course, none of those people who thinks that the Palestinians should just go to Jordan or Egypt thinks that sounds like such a good idea!) And they are unwilling to accept living in a phony “Palestinian state” that wouldn’t even be able to defend itself from attack from another Arab nation, Israel, or anyone else, let alone truly control its own economy.

So, there is really only one solution. That is to make Palestinian existence so miserable that whoever survives will agree to Israel’s terms. That actually is the position of Binyamin (Benjamin) Netanyahu and those to the right of him. However, even that has problems. First, it will mean an all out war with the Palestinians that will mean a very high number of Jewish casualties, especially if other Arab nations get involved. Most of the “crush the Palestinians” contingent delude themselves of the actual cost of this policy in Jewish lives – and I include Netanyahu himself in this delusional group – and the rest see it as a price that they are willing to pay. Second, a great many Jews, including some that are quite conservative and/or religious, really truly do not want to be cruel and oppressive to the Palestinians; or to slaughter large numbers of them and to crush the spirits of the survivors. Most of them are willing to fight a war, but only a defensive one.

Now please do not misunderstand the intent of this, which is not to be anti – Israel or pro – Palestinian. Rather, it is to point out that the Israeli – Palestinian situation really is intractable. There honestly is no solution. The Palestinians can’t leave because no one will take them. The Palestinians can’t join Israel because that would destroy the Jewish state and homeland. Israel can’t give the Palestinians a legitimate state because Muslim extremists would use that state to launch devastating attacks against Israel’s population. And the Palestinians cannot agree to a phony state because such a state would be unable to defend itself and have no one truly willing to defend the state for them.

So, it comes down to the Christians who repeat the common slogan of Israel supporters: “why can’t the Palestinians just give up terror” is really “why can’t the Palestinians accept foreigners taking over half their land and being relegated to living in an economically unviable ‘state’ that cannot defend itself.” I say that American Christians who root for Palestinians to accept such terms – or any other terms that they would never themselves accept – in the interests of  “peace” violate Matthew 22:39 and especially Matthew 5:43-44.

Before you go claiming an “out” based on the notion that Muslims do not qualify as our neighbors because they aren’t Christians, please remember that save for the tiny percentage of Messianic Jews, the Israelis aren’t Christians either. So really, in this dispute, I would have a hard time proposing that Christians have a Biblical basis for choosing any one side over the other. (The liberal Christians who side with the Palestinians ignore that the Palestinians are not exactly innocent oppressed victims here.) Who I really want to hear from are the premillennial dispensationalists who stand with Israel because of Abraham’s covenant and believe that the recreation of Israel in 1948 was a mighty act of God that sets the stage for the endtimes including the rapture, and that Israel belongs to the Jews and the Jews alone based on it. Seriously, what is the solution according to your doctrines? What is the Biblical solution to this intractable problem that Christians should hope and pray to occur?

I freely admit that from where I sit there is no solution other than to wait for Jesus Christ to return. To choose the Israeli side is to be unjust to the Palestinians, most of whom have not engaged in a single act of violence against anyone and are living in a dire situation that they did not create and have no power to resolve. To choose the Palestinian side is to be unjust to the Israelis, who despite their superior wealth and military might are also stuck in a bad situation. They can’t give in to the Palestinians, and they can’t leave Israel because no one wants them, not even the United States.

Now I 100% believe Paul when he wrote in Romans that God has not cast off His chosen people the Jews. I also believe 100% when this same Paul wrote that God created all people and loves all people, including Palestinians. I do not advocate picking sides in this intractable situation that will only be resolved by God on the basis of doctrines that present an unbalanced view of scripture, and I rise up in direct opposition to those who pick sides based on worldly concerns (i.e. which one is “pro – western”, which one is “our ally”, which one’s culture and religion we find more appealing, etc.).

So Christians are left with the fact that with regard to the Israeli – Palestinian situation, we are to be on no one’s side but God’s, and therefore we are to pray for the speedy return of Jesus Christ and that God’s Will be done on earth as it is in heaven. And yes, it is God’s Will in heaven that Jews and Palestinians come to know Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior. So we are to pray for that to happen to. We are also to work for that to happen with our evangelism. And we are also to cast off everything, including unbalanced doctrines and worldly political situations, that would hinder us from being as effective as we possibly can in evangelizing both Jews and Palestinians. I have to say that the current way that many contemporary evangelical Christians view and paint the Israeli – Palestinian conflict often results in a form of false or negative witness to both groups that leave Jews feeling that they do not need to accept Jesus Christ because they are already inherently righteous without Him and Palestinians feeling that they don’t want a Jesus Christ that based on our own doctrines and political positions doesn’t love or care about them.

(I realize that my last statement may seem to conflict with my Reformed/Calvinist leanings, but it is still a true statement. Believing in a predestined elect and believing that God commanded us to show love to all without partiality and certainly without worldly considerations are ideas that are not in tension or conflict, because the same Bible that speaks of the former also incontrovertibly commands the latter. So if anything, the Bible is clearer and more direct on the compulsion to evangelize both Jew and Palestinian, not be partial to either, and to cast off anything that hinders it – if an eye or hand offends then pluck it out or chop it off! – than it is on predestination, so that should be doctrinally and spiritually prior. So yes, I disagree with Calvin’s successor Theodore Beza who called predestination the head of all doctrines. I also disagree with Beza – and Augustine – on the issue of hunting down and killing Anabaptists and Donatists, but that is a topic for another day.)

172 Responses to “Do Evangelical Christians Consider The Plight Of The Palestinians?”

  1. […] Excellent Post, Thought Provoking Questions… Posted on January 4, 2009 by pjmiller Excellent! post by Job at Jesus Christology:  Do Evangelical Christians Consider The Plight Of The Palestinians? […]

  2. […] at Jesus Christology offers a long discussion of whether evangelical Christians, in their zeal for Israel, especially as part of its […]

  3. Earl said

    Excellent article. What books influenced your views regarding eschatology? Oswald Allis Prophecy and the Church impacted me a few years ago and some others since.

  4. Timothy said

    Many conservative Christians do consider the plight of Palestinians just like the plight of the Sudanese people, just like the plight of the Jewish people in Syria, and just like the plight of Indian Christians being oppressed in India.

  5. This is a very thoughtful artical. I am a pré-dis. And would enjoy talking more later.

  6. Job said

    Earl:

    Thank you. I will not mention the eschatological book because it is from a liberal and ecumenical perspective (I did not even read past the initial chapter!) but it did mention that the earliest church fathers were millennialists, and that amillennialism did not come along until later. That book confirmed what I had been reading on various Christian websites that states that the clear majority position of the early church fathers was historic postmillennialism. Of course, a problem that I have been having is that most of the writers of church history and history of doctrines (and the institutions that determine which writers have their works publicized) are either premillennial or amillennial. So, I have had a bit of difficulty finding a good source on the topic.

  7. Job said

    Timothy:

    I agree with you. I should say that the final form of my essay did not have the shape that I intended when I began.

    Andy Armstrong:

    Thank you, and you are welcome to participate on this or any other discussion thread!

  8. BatZion said

    I believe that Israel belongs to the Jews and the Jews alone. So I guess you wanted to hear from me! However, I think that little has changed in Israel since the days of Paul, when the Jewish elders were persecuting believers in Yeshua, throwing them out of synagogues and stoning them. Do a little research into the situation of Messianics in Israel and you’ll see what I mean. So, I don’t believe they are fighting God’s battle at this time, the battle is theirs and they trust in their own strength. I expect there will be great Israeli loss of life and I cry and mourn for this as well as for for the Palestinian believers. May God protect his own and keep them in his perfect peace.

  9. The Precursor said

    Well, the Evangelical Christians DID NOT vote in Obama, so you better take up this all with HIM, the Obamamessiah now.
    The Evangelical Christian as a whole was not represented in this last election so it’s the Leftist Liberals and their ‘seed planting’ of upstarting and trying to cause trouble within the Evangelical Christian community.
    You need to go bother and poke Obama and his legions of hypnotized loonies that will be running everything now.
    Obama has as much power now as a King if this England.
    I see this article as a trouble maker, trouble starter, nit picking at people that did not vote in your new leader.
    We don’t as Evangelical Christians want to hear your controversies.
    Go bug and write about the non-Evangelical Christians, we have been BOOTED OUT now by the new Obamanation.
    I’m not going to give your article a single moment of “Oh, that’s a possible and interesting point of view”, Nope, your a trouble maker.
    Leave the Evangelical Christians to their Prophesicies that will be fulfilled and you go and enjoy those Locust horse sized demons from out of tha abyss that will sting you for 5 months with their Scorpion stingers.

  10. The Precursor said

    Will the Palestianians feel sorry for the Believers that will be getting Martyered left and right for Jesus?
    Nope, they are NOT believers of the Christian Bible or OUR Evangelical Christian beliefs that we hold within our hearts and in our minds ~ Seal of God.
    This a clear case of yet another ‘Guilt’ trip that got Obama to win his Obamanation.
    I’m not fooled!

  11. Job said

    The Precursor:

    Did you even read the post? Of course you didn’t.

  12. The Precursor said

    Do you realize that by Googleing this topic the same person on the TOP comments is posting the very same BOT comment on all the sites this article is on!
    This is an article with an attempt to ‘GUILT’ Evangelical Christians!
    Saw this time and again in the election, and it worked than, but people will Awaken to this scam game.

  13. John Kaniecki said

    Precursor,

    Hi hope you are well.

    So call evangelical Christians have blood on their hands. Read Mathew 5:44 and 2Corinthians 10:4 for starters.

    When you support a war of man you have abandonned spiritual warfare. Christians only have one weapon sacntioned by God.Ephesians 6:17. Our weapon is the Sword of the Spirit which is the Word of God.

    Love,

    John

  14. The Prodigal Son said

    Boy, are you ever indoctrinated with Jewish propaganda ! ~~~ 1) The majority of those you call Jews have stolen that title, and are, in fact caucasians whose ancestors in the kingdom of Khazaria converted en masse to Judaism in the seventh century A.D… Therefore they have no ancestral right to the Holy Land. ~~~ Consequently, 2) These caucasian criminals have STOLEN the name ‘Israel’ and are using that brazen theft to dupe the majority of so-called ‘Christians’ into supporting their genocidal land grab in Palestine. ~~~ As a result – 3) a once Christian Nation has been tricked into supporting the dastardly agenda of Anti-Christ Jews, even though they burn New Testaments in the streets in Israel, and many Palestinians are actually Christians !

  15. The Prodigal Son said

    Revelation 2:9 – “I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.”

  16. The Prodigal Son said

    John 8:44 – “Ye are of your father, the devil and the deeds of your father you will do.”

  17. The Prodigal Son said

    “We Jews – we are the destroyers, and will remain the destroyers. Nothing you can do will meet our demands and needs. We will forever destroy, because we want a world of our own.” ~~~~~ Maurice Samuel – in his book ‘You Gentiles’… pg. 155 ~~~~~~~~~~ “One million arabs are not worth a Jewish fingernail.” ~~~~~ Rabbi Yaacov Perrin – New York Times… Feb. 28/’94 ~~~~~~~~~~ “The difference between a Jewish soul, and the souls of non-Jews… is greater and deeper than the difference between a human soul and the souls of cattle.” ~~~~~ Israel Shahak – 1999

  18. The Prodigal Son said

    “Our race is the master race. We are divine gods on this planet. We are as different to the inferior races as they are from insects. In fact – compared to our race, other races are beasts and animals, cattle at best. Other races are considered as human excrement. Our destiny is to rule over the inferior races. Our earthly kingdom will be ruled by our leader with a rod of iron. The masses will lick our feet and serve us as slaves.” ~~~~~ Menachem Begin – Former Prime Minister of Israel

  19. sidefall said

    I don’t have time to write a long comment, but one bit struck me:

    Even if we accept the Old Testament version of events as history (which of course the Palestinians, being neither Jews or Christians, are not obliged to), that version tells us that the nation of Israel ceased to exist in 586 BC.

    Contrast this to Jeremiah 31:35-36:

    This is what the Lord says, he who appoints the sun to shine by day, who decrees the moon and stars to shine by night, who stirs up the sea so that its waves roar– the Lord Almighty is his name: “Only if these decrees vanish from my sight,” declares the Lord, “will the descendants of Israel ever cease to be a nation before me.”

    Are these two statement compatible?

  20. pjmiller said

    Hi Job…

    I wanted to express my gratitude for such a well thought out essay on what is a very serious topic. Though i have expressed similar sentiments at Soli when linking to your post, i saw another ‘pjmiller’ had posted here so, wanted to be sure you knew how much i appreciated your essay…

    signed, the ‘original’ pjmiller🙂

    From Job: The poseur’s posts will be deleted and his email and IP blocked … thanks and God bless you!

  21. Victoria said

    Yes, yes!!! Thank you for this article. Great concise history of the situation, which is little known in the US.

    There is no solution OUTSIDE OF OBEDIENCE TO CHRIST. You must read/ listen to Art Katz’s teachings about the Church and Isreal and the end times. Yes the Jews are promised by God to have the land, but ONLY in keeping the Covenant which they are not. They are to be the priests ( evangelists) to all the nations of the one true God, but they are not corporately or nationally obedient to the Gospel of Jesus Christ at this point, and as a result there is much suffering in the region. There is no special salvation for them or for anyone of any ethnicity by any other means than obeying the Gospel. Current “evangelical” sentimental Christian Zionism is misguided in that it supports modern Israel without calling for its obedience to Christ. Humanistic “solutions” will all fail; only in acknowledging God in repentance has the Promise of the Land ever been or will be enjoyed. We must love all peoples and evangelize all with impartiality. Terror, demonically inspired ant-Semitism, is surely to be condemned, but likewise is modern humanistic secular jewishness.

    Real love for the Jewish people is to uphold the call to obedience to Christ in repentance, which is condemned by many as anti-semitism. Only judgment awaits any people who arrogantly try to Make it on their own.

  22. Job said

    Sidefall:

    Well, statement two is incompatible with history. Israel lost control of their land in 586 BC, not long after its writer Jeremiah urged the southern kingdom to submit to Babylon. And about 700 years later Jerusalem was burned to the ground and the Jews were scattered into a diaspora. So, statement two would have to be “never except for a huge gap between 586 BC and 1948 AD, and especially between 132 AD and 1948 AD.”

    So the only way to reconcile Jeremiah 31:35-36 with the rest of Biblical revelation and of history is to conclude that it did not refer to the physical nation or land of Israel, but the people of Israel. And to confirm that, go to Exodus. The Exodus account is clear: Israel became a nation when God brought them out of Egypt. Yet they did not possess the land of Israel until after 40 years in the wilderness. Again, they were a nation, but wandering in the wilderness and not in Israel.

    So Jeremiah 31:35-36 was a promise that the natural seed of Abraham would always exist as a people. That promise is true, and evidence of that is the discovery of Jews who can trace their bloodline in such exotic places as Ethiopia and India. But making the claim that it refers to Jews always living in and controlling the land of Israel would be hard to reconcile with the facts of history.

    This is more so when you consider the nature of the Sinai covenant, especially as spelled out in Deuteronomy. The Sinai covenant was not unconditional as was the covenant that God made with Abraham or the Davidic Messianic covenant. The Sinai covenant was conditional. Which meant that for the nation of Israel to remain in the land of Israel (for the people of Shem to dwell in the tents of Canaan, remember Noah’s famous curse against the son of Ham, as the land of Israel is actually the land of Canaan, the Jebusites built Jerusalem if I am correct) and to continue to control Israel, it had to keep the Sinai covenant.

    We know that Israel did not keep the terms of the covenant, and that is why 586 BC happened. Make no mistake, and the Old Testament prophets declared, that the falling of the northern kingdom to the Assyrians and the southern kingdom to the Babylonians was the result of Israel’s breaking of the old covenant. And this same Jeremiah that you quote spoke of a new covenant.

    Israel’s living in and controlling the land of Israel was tied to the Sinai covenant. Again, the book that best spells this out is Deuteronomy, written by the leader of the nation of Israel at the time, Moses, who himself never set foot in the land of Israel.

    Premillennial dispensationalism tries to get around the fact that Israel broke the terms of the conditionial Sinai covenant by claiming that it was the unconditional covenant with Abraham that gave Abraham’s descendants eternal control of the land of Israel. However, http://www.gotquestions.org/Abrahamic-covenant.html does an outstanding job of exposing this false belief. It is based on inappropriately joining Genesis 15:18-21 and Genesis 12:1-3 together. Genesis 15:18-21 simply promises land to Abraham and his descendants. We know that this promise was fulfilled, as Abraham’s descendants were given the land of Israel. That was not what Jeremiah 31:35-36 was referencing.

    Genesis 12:1-3 is the unconditional covenant that makes promises to make Israel into a nation. That was what Jeremiah 31:35-36 was speaking of. And why did Jeremiah write Jeremiah 31:35-36? To address people who claimed that the fall of Judah to Babylon meant that God was breaking the Abrahamic covenant. Jeremiah was reminding Israel that the Abrahamic covenant meant that the natural children of Israel through Isaac would always exist as a people, not that they would always live in and have control of the nation of Israel. Again, continued living in and controlling the nation of Israel was conditioned on keeping the Sinai covenant.

    Now interpreting scripture with scripture is a legitimate way to interpret the Bible, so adding Genesis 15:18-21 to Genesis 12:1-3 or even using one to interpret the other would appear, in isoloation, to be valid. The problem is that Genesis 12:1-3 and Genesis 15:18-21 do not appear in isolation. We have to consider those two statements in the context of the rest of the Bible. The issue with modern premillennialism (which, yes, does differ from historic premillennialism) is not so much that people add those two promises to Abraham together, but rather that in doing so they reinterpret or outright ignore/reject other parts of the Bible, especially the Sinai covenant, its conditional nature, and basically everything that happened after 721 BC when the northern kingdom destroyed Assyria. Interesting thing about the northern kingdom’s tribe of Dan … they never at any time kept the Sinai covenant. The book of Judges reveals that the tribe of Dan fell into apostasy immediately after Israel possessed the land. Do you know the result of that? The tribe of Dan is not listed among the 144,400 in Revelation. They are replaced by elevating the half tribes of Joseph to two full tribes. If that doesn’t prove that God was serious about the Sinai covenant, I do not know what does.

    But dispensational premillennialism teaches that 721 BC was the start of Israel merely being punished for breaking the Sinai covenant, and in 1948 the punishment was over. As a matter of fact, Paul Meier, who wrote “The Millennium” series of books that – among other things – promotes Bible codes, claimed that the punishment for breaking the Sinai covenant was only the 60 year captivity in Babylon, and what happened to Israel thereafter was actually Israel being punished because most of them refused to return to Israel but stayed in Babylon. Well, Meier’s argument breaks down when you consider that A) not all of Israel was sent to Babylon, but that the poor was left behind and B) it completely ignores the northern kingdom.

    And that is yet another problem. Dispensationalism starts by referring to all of Israel, then it shrinks to just the two tribes that made up Judah, then it enlarges to include all of Israel again. Why? Because if you don’t shrink it to include Judah, then you will have to deal with the fact that the 10 northern tribes were not restored to all of Israel, only the two southern tribes were. The land formerly occupied by the 10 northern tribes basically went to the SAMARITANS. (Of course, the later books of the Old Testament reveal that the Samaritans included natural descendants of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, and that is why they figured so prominently in the gospels and Acts, to the point of Jesus Christ making the special effort to reveal Himself to the Samaritan woman at the well. But they were not Jews or considered to be part of the nation of Israel in any sense.) But now, it has to be expanded to all of Israel so that the descendants of those who returned from Babylon can stake a modern claim to the land given to all 12 tribes.

    So we have to points of contention that are critical to premillennial dispensationalism. First is the combination of Genesis 12:1-3 and Genesis 15:18-21 when later Biblical revelation (not to mention historical events) doesn’t support it. Second is willfully misusing the term “nation” in Genesis 12:1-3 and in other relevant places to be the modern meaning of “nation – state”, a combination of a land and a government. Genesis 12:1-3, Jeremiah 31:35-36, Exodus, etc. do not use that definition, which is western. When the relevant Bible passages say “nation”, they are referring to a PEOPLE, such as a tribe (or confederation of tribes) or ethnic group, people united by common lineage. Now the epitome of the modern definition of “nation” is America, which is not defined by a single ethnic group, people group, or lineage but is an amalgamation, and indeed the people who are actually indigenous to our nation – state are a tiny part of the population and have very little – if any – power in it. So, the “nation” of America (out of many, one, e pluribus unum, tons of different races, nationalities, ethnic groups etc. combining to make one entity that is defined by a political entity and a land mass) and the “nation” of Israel (which literally means the natural genetic descendants of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob/Israel and exists no matter which political entity they reside under or where they live whether it be in Egypt/Alexandria, Canaan, Babylon, the Greek Empire, New York City/Miami, Mumbai) are direct contrasts with each other. It is one of the classic divergences between what the Bible meant to its original hearers when it was written and what it means to contemporary audiences (especially those in the west, who are completely influenced by the western – Roman! – notions of nation – state and city – state and empire – state that often contain many races and ethnic groups as opposed to the east and other parts of the world where tribes and such still very much exist and influence thinking, even in the cases of tribes that are in the same basic ethnic or racial group … if you doubt that do an Internet search on “Rwanda genocide”).

    Now I should point out that I disagree with some of the older fashioned amillennialist sorts, the line of thinking in a lot of conservative Roman Catholic and mainline Protestant circles that opposes the existence of the state of Israel. I have no problem with Israel’s existence, especially when you consider that Jews do in fact need a place of last resort that they can flee to because of persecution and other crises, and no other country on the world want that place to be their own country. (I personally wouldn’t mind that country being America, but I am not a democratic majority.) And if you look at current events in Europe, its allowing itself to be Islamized and assent to sharia law, it does appear that many Jews may have to leave that continent for Israel in the near future. So yes, I can say in a very real way that I do support Israel and the Jews. I am merely pointing out that the existence of Israel is a very bad deal for the Palestinians, who are in a tough spot that cannot be resolved with either politics or military force. People who use questionable premillennial dispensational assumptions to support Israel’s simply crushing the Palestinians beyond doing what is necessary to defend themselves (and I do agree by the way that Israel’s bombing and invading Gaza is a legitimate and perhaps necessary measure to stop being pelted with rockets) are ignoring that fact.

    Bottom line: it was the Sinai covenant that allowed Israel to live in Canaan under God’s protection, not the Abrahamic or Davidic covenants. And the Sinai covenant was broken by Israel. If it hadn’t been, then Israel wouldn’t have fallen to Assyria and Judah wouldn’t have fallen to Babylon. That was precisely what the Old Testament prophets and the Chronicler addressed … people who were claiming that God had forsaken His promise to Israel. They replied “God didn’t forsake us, but we forsook God” and then took them right back to Exodus, Leviticus, and especially Deuteronomy (which is precisely why liberal scholarship denies that Deuteronomy was written by Moses, but was instead written during the exile, and the rest of the Old Testament edited to reflect it as a way of Judaism’s “covering its bases” to account for its defeat by Babylon).

  23. Devon said

    Mmmm…do we Christians consider the plight of the Palestinians?

    Well, I suppose we could have asked the same question during WW 2..do we Christians consider the plight of the Germans and Japanese?

    Well yes, to a certain degree….to the innocent civilians of any conflict we should be concerned…but the larger issue is that Israel is dealing with a death cult of a society..a sick society that actually elected Hamas murderers to govern them…

    Most of the palis have blood on their hands in electing murderers…

    Just as we had to deal ruthlessly with Nazi Germany, so Israel has to do what she has to do…

    Job, one thing you badly need to understand is that Islam is a brutal retrograde ideology….that even if an Israel or America never existed, she would be on the march to enslave all of us…

    This is not a debate about eschatology….this is about a people that is defending itself against a barbarous people…

    Islam is the problem…you divorce Islam from the Arab or Persian mind, and then you can see that person become a whole lot more rational and healthly…I have met many ex muslims that have become Christians…they have been rescued from hatred and brought into the truth….

    Granted, their are different levels of blindness….Islam makes a person believe and do the most awful things…it has been so for 1400 years…

    I support Israel fully and America fully against the Islamic menace….even with all of our faults in the West, we are still miles above anything islamic…

    The only ideologies that can rival islam in terms of evil are Marxist and Nazism…and perhaps liberalism…

  24. […] Patrick Wil… on Expel The EnemyBEN on Expelling Demonssidefall on Do Evangelical Christians Cons…The Prodigal Son on Replacement TheologyThe Prodigal Son on Replacement TheologyKyle on […]

  25. Wout said

    I agree completely with Devon. You cannot discuss Palestinians and ignore islam which is what drives them. Islam is the only belief system that is determined to have everyone adhere to its blasphemy, or die. Children from infancy are taught to hate and kill Jews. Unless their ideology changes, there is no solution except what Israel is now forced to do. Islam is not only non-Christian, but is the only anti-Christian religion wherein the worst sin is to believe God has a Son. Not only did God not have a Son, but Jesus did not die on the cross. It is clear that this religion is inspired by Satan as it specifically denies the absolute basics of Christianity.

  26. pjmiller said

    “Most of the palis have blood on their hands in electing murderers…”

    Devon, we could apply that to any nation, land, etc…including America. Our government has sent billions of dollars to nations we politically support along with weapons which were [and are being] used against other nations, etc. This has resulted in millions being murdered. We, as a nation, have blood on our collective hands too…

  27. Devon said

    Not explicitly so PJmiller..not explicitly so…that is moral relativism there my friend and it cannot stand!

    In the context of the cold war, we had to support some pretty awful regimes to be sure….and the West has not been perfect…

    But never in the history of modern mature democracy, have we EVER elected known murderers to our Govt…in the Islamic world, if given the right to democracy, they will gladly elect known murderers like hamas, hizballah or in the Case of Algeria in 1990 where the GIA was elected but the Generals wisely overruled the results knowing that the Islamists meant horror for that nation..

    Even our poorest leaders in the democratic world come off as shining knights in armour compared to the Nazis of Hamas…

    Israel has the moral right to do what she has to do…if that means wiping out tens of thousands of murderers, then she should do it..

    The blood lies on the hands of hamas…

    I would seriously suggest to people that they study Islam like i have studied it…then they might learn to not fall into moral and cultural relativism…

    What is the difference between Mein Kampf and the Quran and Sahih Hadiths? Just the language….

  28. pjmiller said

    “..that is moral relativism there my friend and it cannot stand! ”

    Devon, i don’t believe it is. There is absolute right and wrong, which the word of God spells out explicitly and which is not relative or variable depending on the reasons, causes or end results. America or any other nation is not exempt.

    What disturbs me as a Christian is when other Christians apply a broad brush stroke, in the case of Palestinians when using ‘most’…as in:

    “Most of the palis have blood on their hands in electing murderers…”

    When we as followers of Christ begin to do that we no longer see people as individuals: which has led us to view ‘all’ within certain nations, etc as enemies.God sees all as individuals: either abiding in his Son or lost & in need of him–shouldn’t we do the same?

    Isn’t this what the world [at large] has done to ‘all’ Americans in recent years….judged all by the actions of a relative few who were elected?

    The same can be said in the Christian world–we Christians in America are seen by Christians in the middle east as not interested in them or their plight. Mainly because of how the ‘few’ have represented us to the Christian world at large.

    I recently read a comment from an Egyptian brother in Christ who wrote that Christians through out the middle east believe American Christians have all but forgotten about them. That our only concern in the region was our political stand with Israel. This was not an accusation from this dear brother but a plea for understanding…

    Our concern in this recent war should first be for our brothers and sisters in both regions: Messianic Jews and Palestinian Christians. Secondly, we should grieve at the loss of life on both sides, knowing the likelihood (there are only relative small numbers of believers in both areas)they have left this world lost. Lastly, we as Christians need to get out of the political arena in the middle east and concentrate on winning the lost. As long as we continue to be politically active vocally, our ‘voices’ when telling the good news of the Gospel, will be ignored by those in the middle east.

    Job said it best:

    “So Christians are left with the fact that with regard to the Israeli – Palestinian situation, we are to be on no one’s side but God’s, and therefore we are to pray for the speedy return of Jesus Christ and that God’s Will be done on earth as it is in heaven. And yes, it is God’s Will in heaven that Jews and Palestinians come to know Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior. So we are to pray for that to happen to.

    We are also to work for that to happen with our evangelism. And we are also to cast off everything, including unbalanced doctrines and worldly political situations, that would hinder us from being as effective as we possibly can in evangelizing both Jews and Palestinians.

    I have to say that the current way that many contemporary evangelical Christians view and paint the Israeli – Palestinian conflict often results in a form of false or negative witness to both groups that leave Jews feeling that they do not need to accept Jesus Christ because they are already inherently righteous without Him and Palestinians feeling that they don’t want a Jesus Christ that based on our own doctrines and political positions doesn’t love or care about them”

  29. Beautiful Post was wondering when I would see this view on a Christian blog

    Godbless

  30. The Prodigal Son said

    All of you people need to stop watching t.v. ! I’M SERIOUS ! You literally have no concept of reality ! There are also those on here from ADL/Mossad… SO OBVIOUS (shalom, Palis…) ~~~ ~~~ Here’s a little dose of TRUTH for all of you lovers of the Anti-Christ Talmudic state of Israel… ~~~ ~~~ Palestinians did NOT break the ceasefire – Israel did !! … Israel has fighter jets, tanks, un-manned drones, etc. and a neverending supply of money (from U.S. “loans”, holoaust(tm) reparations and the Rothschilds)… Palestinians in their land which has been occupied since the 40s have rocks to throw and pathetic homemade rockets… ~~~ ~~~ And most telling is the deathtoll… since Dec. 27, there have been over 500 Palistinians KILLED… BUT ONLY 4 (FOUR) ISRAELIS !! This is not a war – this is a Talmudic SLAUGHTER of Gentiles (Christian & Muslim) just like it’s always been since 1947, and earlier ! ~~~ Google ‘Talmud’ ! Google ‘Seven Noachide Laws’ ! Awake !

  31. Devon said

    PJ, since I am a student of Islam, this conflict is much much bigger then just the Israel versus Palis….talk to the Phillipines, Thailand, NW China, India, North Nigeria, Europa, Iran, Caucases, Southern Russia, and so many many more conflicts that have Islam at its core..

    I brook no sympathy for evil ideologies and no Christian should…Islam is evil…it causes people who take it literally to do evil things…whilst there are decent law abiding kind muslims, there is no such thing as peaceful literal islam….

    Israel is up against a juggernaut of evil…for all her faults and for all of our faults in the west, we come off a thousand times better then any nation run by Islam….and that is appalling considering how bad our nations have sunk in the last 50 years or so…

    Until the Palis and other assorted tribes that hold to brutal islam grow up, then our response will have to be harsh…

    That is sad but reality…Jesus Christ never taught to ignore evil and nor are we….I feel the exact same way about Marxism or Nazism…

    Yes, would it not be wonderful if every Pali and Muslim the world over dropped to their knees and came to our Savior…of course that is what we all prefer…Sadly that isn’t going to happen en masse…in the meantime, we need to contain the evil that is islamic culture…or it will rule us one day…if the Lord Tarries of course…

  32. The Prodigal Son said

    Dear Devon, ~~~ You said, “I am a student of Islam”… +PLUS+ “Islam is evil”… =EQUALS= ~BULLS**T~ !! ~~~ ~~~ How’s Abe doing, anyway ?

  33. The Prodigal Son said

    Anybody that wants a good dose of REAL TRUTH should check out a website called REAL JEW NEWS… ~~~ I know it sounds terrible, but trust me it’s not. The Brave man who runs the site was born as, grew up as a Jew, but after a trip to the Holy Land he was disillusioned… after a time he became a Christian. Now he has devoted his life (even to martyrdom) to the TRUTH (which is, of course – the WAY), and to exposing the agenda of these REAL Anti-Christ Jews (who are NOT really Jews… see Revelation 2:9). ~~~ This guy is the real deal ! He does what he calls ‘street evangelism’ and carries a large Cross to thrust in the faces of these Anti-Christs ! The POWER of the Cross is amazing ! When’s the last time you saw a Cross in public ? ~~~ I invite you… come out of the darkness, and into the LIGHT ! Blessings in Christ to everyone !

  34. Devon said

    Prodigal Son, I do visit that site but I fully disagree with what Nathan is doing…the problem with what sites like Real Jew News or Jew Watch is that they are making this a racial issue…

    Whatever is wrong with various ethnic groups, it has nothing to do with them being born Jewish, Irish, Hausa, Ibo or Russian or whatever…

    Whatever issues a ethnic group has is because of their culture…the good news is that cultures can be fixed…

    Whatever problems are in the Arab or Persian or Turkish world has nothing to do with these peoples ethnicity but with their islamic culture…

    You must learn that a dichotomy exists here…

  35. The Prodigal Son said

    Devon, ~~~ If you really visited Br. Nathanael’s site – you would know that it’s not about their ‘Jewish’ ethnicity (because they are NOT ethnic semetic Jews… see Revelation 2:9), it is actually about the (Judeo-supremecist) religion these so-called ‘Jews’ have adopted… Namely Talmudic Judaism, which is actually the very same religion of the Pharisees of Jesus’ time (traditions of men). Don’t take my word for it – the Soncino Talmud and the Jewish Encyclopedia will both confirm this for anyone who wants to look. ~~~ ~~~ And if the Arab peoples problems are derived from Islam… then how do you explain all the (real) Jews who have lived in peace for centuries with Muslims AND Christians in places like Iraq (before Desert Storm) & Iran, AND the Holy Land (before 1920). ? Hmmm ?

  36. The Prodigal Son said

    To Wout, ~~~ You said, “Islam is the only beleif that is determined to have everyone adhere to it’s blasphemy or die.” ~~~ WRONG ! The Jewish Talmud teaches that ALL Gentiles (non-Jews) are sub-human (like cattle) and that ALL MANKIND must adhere to their Seven Noachide Laws – or DIE ! (AND these laws have passed through U.S. Congress and are law ! They have also been endorsed by the Pope ! – kind of strange considering the second law is against idolatry, which – according to the Talmud – Christianity IS idolatry. Punishable by decapitation !)

  37. The Prodigal Son said

    The Talmud also says specifically that it is the duty of Jews to kill Christians and destroy our Books… I think we can figure out why… (+) ~~~ Please visit : Come-and-Hear.com to learn the TRUTH about the Jewish Babylonian Talmud – from which the Seven Noachide Laws were invented through exegesis… ~~~ p.s. – You are a LIAR – the Qu’aran venerates Jesus and His Blessed Mother Mary, which is more than we can say for the Talmud which clearly states that Jesus was a sorcerer and performed magic with his membrum… and that Mary was a whore – impregnated by a Roman soldier ! That only scratches the surface of the filth !… (Other than the above blasphemy) – The WORST thing it says is that it’s O.K. to have sex with a girl UNDER THREE (! 3 !) years old !

  38. Hope said

    Dear Job,
    You wrote:

    “The second reason is that many American Christians have been indoctrinated into regarding Israel as a natural ally for religious reasons which range from the premillennial dispensational movement (that I myself until recently belonged to) which considers Israel as belonging to the Jews alone and its rebirth as a fulfillment of endtimes prophecies to other Christians who simply prefer Judaism to Islam, and in particular conservatives who subscribe to the “Judeo – Christian western culture” ideology which conveniently casts aside inconvenient facts of religion and history.”

    I am curious, what books and or material did you read that brought you to these conclusions?

    Thanks
    Hope

  39. The salvationist/redeemer complex is used by the competing Abrahamic monotheist religious followers to justify the perpetual spilling of blood in the name of their faith. Thou shalt persecute in the name of past persecution. The modern day followers of the barbaric, schizohrenic, tribal deity Jehovah are reenacting their favorite scenes from the OT. Until Christ’s message is liberated from the blood-thirsty patriarchal social-engineers, and love for one’s earthly brothers is of paramount concern to humanity, bloodshed will continually be waged in the name of religion.

  40. Sherri said

    A very well written article. Interesting, eduated responses. Then came “Devons” responses. What a sick-soul, I hope if anyone knows them personally, they will help them receive some help. May Peace Be Upon You.

  41. Devon said

    Job, long before I was ever a Christian, I was a supporter of Israel…going back to 78….my support of Israel has absolutely nothing to do with any eschatology views of which mine are quite fluid in between pre mill and a mill….

    No, my support of Israel is simply because she is correct…that is all…a tiny nation trying to live surrounded by murderous cultures…

    Remember this Job..in the Islamic Arab world they have a saying…’First we will deal with the saturday people, then we will deal with the Sunday people’….such is Islam and its evil ways.

    To Prodigal Son

    Yes I visit Nathan’s site daily but more for humourous reasons…I do not take what he says very seriously..

    ie Modern Day Jews are from the Khazars etc etc…

    Nathan makes a few valid points but he crosses over and indulges his followers to hate the Jews proper…

    And absurdly claims that everything is a Jewish conspiracy…that is nonsense…no race of people have a corner on sin…we are all tainted..

    He broadbrushes a whole race of people…rubbish…

  42. Diane said

    Devon,
    You would think with all the wealth and vast land of the Arab nations that there would be no Palestinian plight.

  43. nan said

    Go head prodigal son tell it like it is. I am a Christian and I know what you are saying is true. Whatever you hear on the news believe the reverse, because all they do is lie.. Those Yahoud are not the true people Israel they are liars and God at his appointed time will deal with them as He sees fit. Those people in Gaza are being murdered just like they were in Iraq and raped. I wonder how many little mixed children are in Iraq now. Genocide is what is happening, but it makes a lot of christians here happy to see this happen. They like being deceived. They thrive on being deceived, they love it, because they are NOT true worshipers of God. True worshipers can see and accept the truth. They had better wake up before it’s too late, because TIME IS RUNNING OUT. Keep speaking the truth Prodigal son, because someone’s eyes here will eventually be opened to the REAL TRUTH.

  44. nan said

    There is a plight because a lot of Arab countries are in the bed with and doing business with Satan. Years ago Arabs would not sit back and let their brothers and sisters be slaughtered like this and not do nothing. This is ridiculous.

  45. Diane said

    Nan,
    Israel’s right to defend themselves is not Genocide. I have never met a Christian who is happy about any war even when it is necessary, nor have I met a Christian happy when someone wilfully slanders while professing to be a true believer.

    How do you know who are the true people of Israel?
    Are you considering supporters of Israel deceived and not true worshippers?

  46. Devon said

    I concur fully with you Diane…i have never met a Christian that was joyous about any war..we simply recognize that in this fallen world, it sadly has to be used against murderoud ideologies and cultures!

    Thank goodness for the brave men and women that fought nazism, marxism and islamism and other evil ideologies that want to enslave us all…

    Israel is a patient humane country that has put up with death threats since its inception…she has the moral right to do whatever it takes to secure her borders and peace..

    If the muslims of Arabia and the Islamic world at large would lay down their weapons and hatred, they would have peace overnight with Israel..

    If Israel were to lay down her arms unconditionally, she and her people would be slaughtered reminiscent of the Holocaust..

    Again, the blood lies fully at the feet of murderous Islam….remember folks, radical islam is butchering people from the Phillipines to Nigeria and all points in between…

  47. […] Comments Does Israel Have The… on Whither The Promise of God Tha…Devon on Do Evangelical Christians Cons…Caleb & Sol on Concerning Saints Who Were Res…Bella on Identify The EnemyDiane on Do […]

  48. Hope said

    Dear Devon and Diane, thank you for your true, well reasoned comments on this thread. I think you are clear thinkers and are speaking the truth. Though PJ Miller makes a couple of valid points, overall there seems to be an inability or an unwillingness to face this world as it is, see evil as it is and realize that it is not as simple as she makes it to sound by her comments. She seems like a pacifist to me from her comments. She also seems to be influencing others by her comments and her posts not to be involved in politics or stand on the side of people who are resisting and fighting evil militarily. It seems to be a lack of making distinctions and reasoning from the whole counsel of the Word of God and the reality of life and history.
    Devon, you clearly explain in your comments the right and necessity for Christians to stand against evil regimes. Where would civilization be if Hitler had not been resisted and stopped?
    I wonder how she and others who believe like her would respond if their neighborhoods were being pummeled for years by missiles by an evil terrorist group? I believe indivduals and nations have a God given right to defend themselves. Jihadists have clearly let their intentions be known toward Israel and America. To ignore or reject their stated intentions is a DENIAL of REALITY! It is dangerous and that level of naivete could get you killed! Jihadists are THAT deceived in their ideology and intentions.
    God is concerned with individuals AND nations…….they are both His idea and He has much to say about both in His word. Do a study on nations thoughout Scripture and you will understand what I mean. A good book on the subject is “God and the Nations What the Bible Has To Say About Civilizations-Past and Present” by Henry M. Morris of the Institute for Creation Research.
    It is sad that our Christian brethren are caught in the crosshairs of this battle. I do pray for them.

  49. The Prodigal Son said

    Nan… thank you… it’s good to know there’s at least one person out there who loves Truth ! When will American & Canadian ‘Christians’ realize that Truth is the Way ? ~~~ Most are lost in darkness… WITHOUT the Light. Can I be a mirror for Christ’s Light ?… I can try ! ~~~ I know that THEY comprise the majority of commentors on here, but where are His soldiers ? The silence is deafening ! ~~~

  50. Diane said

    Hi Hope,
    I think if someone is shooting rockets into a person’s home, their criticism of Israel self defense would come to an immediate halt! It’s real easy to criticize when it’s someone else.

    Prodigal son,
    Do you condemn the North and ALL the Christian Abolitionists for fighting in the Civil War? Does that make them false Christians and the war wrong? Were the slaves wrong for fighting for their freedom?

  51. Diane said

    Devon,
    The Arabs have made great contributions in science and math, until islam. The good news is that there are quite a few escaping that ideology and are courageously lifting their voices against it. Walid Shobat, Nonie Darwish, Gabriel Brigette, Wafa Sultan just to name a few.

    Since the Arabs created this Palestinian crises, you would think they would take responsibility. It would be too easy for them to take a portion of unused land and a fraction of their wealth to create jobs and homes for these people. If they continue attacking Israel they can expect greater problems than the ones theyre facing now.

    Hope,
    youre a voice of truth and reason as well, Thank you.

  52. Hope said

    When we can read these Jihadists intentions in their own words and see what they DO it makes the situation clear in my estimation.

    “Al-Qaeda’s second in command, Dr. Ayman al-Zawahiri, articulated a global vision in the summer of 2006: “War with Israel is not subject to a treaty, cease-fire, Sykes-Picot Treaty agreements, patriotism or disputed borders, but it is jihad for the cause of God until the entire religion is for him only. Jihad seeks the liberation of Palestine, the entire country of Palestine and to liberate every land that used to be a territory of Islam, from Spain to Iraq. The entire world is an open field for us…With the grace of God, we have now returned to the field….Dear Muslim brothers everywhere, today we must target the Jewish and the American interests everywhere.”[1]

    http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/Printable.aspx?GUID={FC2726D1-5BD2-4EA8-B54D-626B7BE10A10}

    As Christians we are to pray for the salvation of the lost and for our Christian brethren who are suffering. But we must not allow these Jihadists to take over civilization as they intend and are trying to do all around the world.

  53. Diane said

    Hope, there might be a temporary problem with the link.

    Here in FL there was a rally and things got pretty ugly. Even here in America the Arabs dont believe Jews have the right to exist or live in peace. They were told to “go back in the oven” “we need a bigger oven”. Then in the minds of these Arabs, they believed Jews didnt have the right to have a differing opinion, and went over to intimidate them. These people shouldve been arrested for hate crimes.

    With a new administration coming in, its likely, merely criticizing islam will become a crime, so as concerned Americans, we definitely have our work cut out for us.

  54. Devon said

    Yes Diane, the Lord has not forgotten about the Arab peoples…there are more and more of them being rescued by our Savior..even a small remnant of Jewish believers also…

    We must continue praying for both peoples, Jew and Arab, to know the Savior…in the meantime, the nation of Israel must do all she has to do to protect itself from its brutal neighbors!!

  55. pjmiller said

    “I wonder how she and others who believe like her would respond if their neighborhoods were being pummeled for years by missiles by an evil terrorist group?”

    Hope,

    I would like to believe as a Christian, i would respond biblically, according to the word of God. I’d like to also believe all those who follow Christ would do the same.

    “…Do not repay anyone evil for evil. Be careful to do what is right in the eyes of everybody. If it is possible, as far as it depends on you, live at peace with everyone. Do not take revenge, my friends, but leave room for God’s wrath, for it is written: “It is mine to avenge; I will repay,” says the Lord. On the contrary: “If your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink. In doing this, you will heap burning coals on his head” Romans 12:16-20

    “love your enemies, pray for those who persecute you” Matt.6:44

    If following the admonitions written in the word of God is being a ‘pacifist’, then i can accept that title Hope.

    I do not expect governments to follow suit–people, individuals, are Christians, not governments or nations.

    “It seems to be a lack of making distinctions and reasoning from the whole counsel of the Word of God and the reality of life and history.”

    I would be glad to read any scriptures you can share which tells us we are to react differently as followers of Christ, living under the new covenant…

  56. Diane said

    Devon,

    I know you were addressing your comments to Hope, but I hope you dont mind my response as well.

    Was Samuel opposing Christ and not responding biblically when He dealt with Agag?

    Was Christ in disagreement with the Will of the Father in telling Barack to deploy troops? Israel enemies didnt just lay down their weapons in response to Israel’s prayers and contrition. God could have easily wiped Sisera’s Army without a war, so unless you believe Christ was opposed to this war, you have to at least concede the realization of God’s people being involved in war.

    Joshua who spent time in the Presence of God, was he not responding biblically?

    A nations defense against the killing of their citizens is not “repaying evil with evil”. They have fed, clothed, and cared for their enemies… they have repaid good for the evil theyve received.

    Christians and anyone truly concerned need to add their voices to the situation in the Middle East. A part of the Gospel message is “repentance” which all concerned need to hear.

    You are correct when speaking about broadbrushes, which applies to our brothers in Egypt as well, but Im speaking about the continued attacks on Israel, just for being Israel.
    God Bless

  57. Diane said

    Forgive me Devon,

    the message above is for PJ Miller. Perhaps the moderator could change the name in my above post. Sorry again to Devon

  58. John Kaniecki said

    PJMiller,

    Hi hope you are well.

    Amen to you brother. I have been staying out of the conversation until now. I am proud that you have stood up for the commands of Christ.

    Devon,

    You have to understand that this is a new covenant. If it were the old covenant Israel would not only have a mandate to take the lands promised to them by God but also a mandate to destroy all the inhabitants of the land.

    So to answer your question God was with Israel when they did those things. But things have changed, we have a new convenant. God’s people is no longer Israela it is the kingdom of heaven, it is a spiritual kingdom. Things have changed. You no longer sacrifice animals because Christ came as a better sacrifice. Many things have changed.

    Sidefall,

    Jeremiah 31:35-36 reads in the King James. “Thus saith the Lord, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar, The Lord of hosts is his name. If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the Lord, then the seed of Isreal shall cease from being a nation before me.”

    Notice it says the seed of Isreal. The seed is of course Christ, read Galatians 3:16. Go back to verse 32 and 33 in Jeremiah,it becomes clear then that God is talking about a new covenant. This is the convenat of the new testament. Thus what God is saying refers not to physical Israel but to spiritual to the seed of Isreal which is Christ. The church is in Christ. Thus the statement is about the Church of Christ.

    Saying all this the Bible teaches there will be wars and rumors of wars until the end. While I believe the Bible PJMiller teaches Christians not to get involved in these wars (see also 2 Corinthians 10:4 where the command is specific) they will occur.

    I do not think it is wrong for a Christian to favor one side over the others. Hopefully everyone here would have rooted for the defeat of the Nazis. In this situation the parties are more complex. As Job has pointed out the Palestinians got a raw deal. Yet as Devon has pointed out the Jews also feel pressured that they are fighting for their very existance. Job did not mention the opressive treatment that the inhabitants of Gaza were under as well. But at best estimation the situation is an ugly mess where I feel no clear side having moral superiority.

    What to do? Blessed are the peacemakers for they shall be called the children of God. It is best to go back to Jesus’ words whenever we can.

    War is a useless and vain tool. War has never really solved any problems. It has only put the problems away until the next war is to come. Even after the United States succeeded in the Revolutionary War they still had to fight the war of Eighteen Twelve.

    “And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war anymore.” Isaiah 2:4

    I long for that time to come.

    Love,

    John

  59. Hope said

    Dear PJ,

    This is a complex important issue and not an easy one to address. As I stated in my above comments I think distinctions need to be made and the entire Bible needs to be sought to get the whole counsel of the Word of God. Also we need to take into account history and facing the reality of evil in this world.
    We are dealing with individuals and nations in caring about the plight of the Palestinian Christians. As another commenter said we are not suggesting aggression but self-defense as individuals and nations.
    Please read the following as it explains what I believe very clearly.

    “Christians and non Christians should not disarm, allowing despots, totalitarian governments to take over and enslave millions. This becomes an issue of self defense, and not sitting by idly while others are slaughtered or enslaved, it is not an issue of faith. Certain individuals, religious groups, countries are intent on domination and abusing others. Maintaining peace is sometimes impossible without having a strong defense. A nation as a whole cannot turn the other cheek, as Romans 13 says the government does not bear the sword in vain to those who do evil”

    http://www.letusreason.org/Doct40.htm

    Sincerely in the love of Jesus,
    Hope

  60. The Prodigal Son said

    Devon, Diane, Hope… ~~~ No matter how much you talk around in circles and tell each other how much you agree with each other… you’re not fooling anyone ! ~~~ Do you think that if you repeat your LIES often enough and always get the last word (using megaphone)… that you become more believable ? ~~~ You give yourselves away by : 1) showing great predjudice towards Palestinians… who have killed FOUR ( 4 ) Israelis since ISRAEL broke the French brokered ceasefired on Nov. 7 (by KILLING SIX ( 6 ) Palestinians – UN-PROVOKED… Only then did the ELECTED OFFICIALS – Hamas begin to fire back !) ~~~ ~~~ 2) Showing TOO MUCH support for the criminal state of Israel… Who, since Dec. 27th – have SLAUGHTERED OVER SIX HUNDRED ( 600 ) PEOPLE !! Over 80 of those CHILDREN ! Israel is also using cluster bombs, and white phosphorous incendiaries – BOTH OF WHICH ARE ILLEGAL, and banned under the Geneva Convention…

  61. nan said

    I did not expect any of you to agree with me on what I said. True believers of God know and accept the truth.Diane, they are not Israelites. You only believe what you believe because that is what this government and world has been telling you for years. You have been deceived and are being deceived. The trouble with Americans is that when truth stares you in the face you still reject it, because you are comfortable with the deception. That way you don’t have to accept change. If one thing I know is true and that is, Americans hate to admit that they could be wrong about something. If the world agrees with something, then you should know as a follower of Christ that it is wrong.

  62. nan said

    Hope, America is enslaved, you just don’t realize it yet.

  63. nan said

    Slaves didn’t have guns and weapons they only had God ok. So exactly what fight are you talking about

  64. The Prodigal Son said

    Now I will tell you that there are MANY, MANY people who KNOW what’s going on… and who agree w/ me… but they’re scared to speak up because they also know that Israel/Mossad has backdoor access to every phone call, fax, text message and e-mail in North America (thru a company called ‘Comverse’ and another called ‘Amdocs Infosys’). ~~~ They also know that the ADL (domestic branch of the Mossad) and their ‘Sayanim’ are monitoring the Net and cataloging I.P. addresses (wonder what for ?)… ~~~ People are scared to say what they really think… so (other than you lot) nobody says much ! ~~~ I’ve decided I really don’t want to live in a world like this… so I will spread the TRUTH until they kill me ! If I could personally go to Palestine… I would let them kill me there, If I could SAVE THE LIFE of just one poor, innocent child ! ~~ Were those 80 Palestinian children also ‘terrorists’ ?… WERE THEY ?!? ~~ Israel is a SICK, PHSYCHOTIC SERIAL KILLER of a ‘nation’, and God’s Wrath on them WILL BE SEVERE !

  65. Don’t forget to mention the 2000 missiles tosssed into Israel before she fought back. As a retired military man when someone shoots at you, you don’t always see who shot, but you target the direction it came from in order to save your own life and those of fellow soliders. Hamas has set up their missles in the heart of schools, and in public areas, they are the real enemy to the people, throwing rocks and hiding their hand, daring Israel to strike because these are poor helpless people.
    The world didn’t commend Hamas once for her 2000 strikes at Israel. Not once did anyone cover it, until after Israel struck back. Can you not see the enemy using the media, and yourself falling victims to the devils lie, that Israel should be destroyed. God’s word clearly tells us this will not happen. Throughout the bible God has commanded Israel to destroy both women and children, animals and cattle and all who were not his friend. Though I hate that children are being harmed it is not the main issue.
    The main issue is the word of God, it reads these things must happen, (wars and rumors of war), for all nations to turn their back all Israel, and the Son of God to return. We must not allow our hearts to be so intuned to human suffering that we forget what God’s will is. And these things are part of His will to bring about the return of His son. The heart can deceive us into believing we are behaving correctly, serving the right God. But there is nothing worse then serving the right God, the wrong way. Do his will and pray for peace, by doing so will are praying for the return of Jesus.

  66. David L. Williams said

    Well said, Patrick. One problem I see in all this, is that people forget Israel still has a purpose in God’s will. That purpose did not go away when the seed, Jesus, did His wonderful part in forming the Spiritual Kingdom of God. (Jesus said He had other sheep to tend, meaning the gentiles, some of whom would believe Him.) When Jesus next sets His feet on the earth, where will that take place? On the Mount of Olives, in Israel.

    People tend to not see that there are TWO Kingdoms of God. One is Spiritual, and the other earthly. The Spiritual one is growing, as if in a perenthises as the dispersion and regathering of the Jews take place. When the Spiritual one is completed, (the Bride) then emphasis on the earthly Kingdom rises to the fore.

    When we come back to rule and reign with Jesus in the millenium, we will have bodies like Jesus’ body, not subject to death. But those who survive the wrath, (all Israel will be saved,) will still have bodies that die. Granted, longer living ones, for if one dies before a hundred, it will be as dying as a baby. So there will be two Kingdoms of God, even then.

    So many believe parts of the message, and do not see the whole. This world is as evil as God said it would be until Jesus comes to rule. So what evil we see going on on both sides is according to His Word. We can feel concerned for victims on both sides by watching it all come about, yet know that Israel is having the whole world’s attention focused on it, and it will choke us all, and it all falls in with what God’s plan is. We may not like seeing so much cruel warfare, yet can we accuse God?

    So as Patrick said above, that leaves us only to pray for the peace of Jerusalem as Jesus told us to. That is praying for His soon return, for there will be no peace in Jerusalem until He returns.

    If we do not see that Jews and the Bride have separate destinies, then all our arguments with Bible verses are off target. Love, DavWms

  67. John Kaniecki said

    David L Williams,

    Hi hope you are well.

    Regarding Isael as still being God’s physical kingdom I would like some scriptures. This is a very complex issue to me as prophecy could be talking about the return from exile, the coming of Jesus as a child, the return of Jesus or what will occur during the thousand year reign.

    Whether or not Israel is God’s physical kingdom on Earth I don’t know. I know scripture mentions Israel.

    I hope you agree that there is no salvation outside of Jesus Christ. Therefore these people claiming to be Israel have no salvation.

    Further consider this. These people who occupy the lands of Israel for the majority cannot trace their blood back to the original occupants nor do they follow the same standard of teaching. Some of them to their shame have taken up the talmud as their guide to life. Thus the only thing the majority of the people who live in Israel have in common with the old Israel is the name and location.

    Also even if they were God’s people as you assert they would only flourish in as far as they remain faithful to God. This tenant is clearly seen in scripture.

    So please give me your scriptures that you think teaches God has two kingdoms.

    As regarding to the scripture in Romans that says all Israel will be saved I believe Paul is talking about the spiritual Israel and not a physical kingdom.

    To the other Williams please give me a website for your claim of 2000 missles shot into Israel.

    Love,

    John

  68. Diane said

    Nan,

    Over 180,000 African Americans free and slave joined the Union Army and many more joined the Union Navy. They along with White Americans, Christian and non-Christian together fought (with guns) in the Civil War.

    Were the slaves wrong for fighting in the Civil War?
    ++++

    Have you done DNA testing to trace the bloodline of these people all the way back to Jacob? No, you havent. You are professing to be in truth, so either stop slandering the people of Israel, whom you know little about or explain how these people are not the descendants of Israel.

    How do you know who are the true people of Israel?

  69. David L. Williams said

    John, I refuse to get into a “Verse vs verse” argument with anyone. You read what I wrote, and can recall the verses it referred to in each place needed. If I joined in that, neither of us would ever see the point of the other, but would be like the Pharisees who only saw the Law, but never the love of God.

    It is only neccesary for God to know who is still considered a Jew. Yet thru Paul, He claimed “All Israel will be saved,” didn’t He? And I was talking about when Jesus comes to rule in the Millenium. I am aware the same salvation is available to the Jews right now, but when He comes and shows the Jews the wounds in His hands, they will mourn. And then receive Him for Who He is. I did not say the Israelies are now the Kingdom of God. I said they will be. Can God fail in His quest?

    I ask you to reread what I wrote about different destinies for Jews and the Bride. It proves the point to any who know their Bible in the large picture, not just in tiny context. Yes, contextual reading is correct, but if only that is used, we can fail to see the big picture. The mistake of the Pharisees.

    Reread all that Paul spoke about. Note he said he brot the Gospel as Jesus showed him. See that he had revelation that had not been revealed before. Note also that he kept telling us, he was the Apostle for the Gentiles. While he mourned for the Jews, he did as God told him and took the Gospel to us. And that some day, God would save the Jews, too.

    I did not see anything in what I wrote that indicates i might believe there is any other salvation than that thru Jesus, so I wonder why you would ask that? Now, the Bride is being saved thru Jesus into a Spiritual Kingdom. When He returns to Israel, Israel will be saved thru seeing Who He really is. Ergo, either way is thru Jesus, and the Jews will live in the earthly Kingdom. Love, Dave

  70. John Kaniecki said

    David,

    Hi hope you are well.

    Your concept of a spiritual and physical kingdom is very new to me.

    If you care not to debate the scriptures that is fine, I really didn’t have that in mind. You can just list the scriptures and I will examine them without comment.

    There are many different ideas on what the Bible teaches as long time bloggers here know. I wouldn’t want to condemn or approve anything without hearing another’s side. Like I said, provide the scriptures for my edification and I will not comment.

    Love,

    John

  71. David L. Williams said

    Hi, John… We all have different make-ups. I have had ADD all my life, and struggle to remember just where an exact verse is. But I have read the Bible thru more than many preachers. So as i read, I know the next few words. I could use my concordance, but I won’t. I see you know the words in the Word, yourself.

    For a long time, I have been trying to show others to not only know the verses the best they can, but to also see what God is telling us by the whole Bible. Let me tell you how that came about:

    I, like so many, memorized verses to be prepared. One day in my shop, I had just finished watching a docu. on the Egyptian pyramids. I wondered to myself whether that pyramid without its cornerstone was the last pyramid the Israelis worked on before they left. And if that was a sign of them leaving without their Cornerstone, Jesus. As I walked back to my work, I heard, “Watch this!”

    In an open vision before me, I saw a pyramid made of many perfectly carved stones. I “understood” that each stone represented a verse in the Bible. Then I saw a red line go from one stone clear across the structure to another. There, it turned and went to yet another stone, etc; Soon, the whole pyramid was red. Then I heard the words, “Consider each verse in the light of every other verse.”

    I stopped reading only in context and let an overall picture develop on each subject I considered. I have never regretted that. I also saw many do what the Pharisees were doing. They memorized the Torah, and used it not to help others, but to gain power and glory for themselves. When Jesus came, they disliked Him because He did not approve of their knowledge without love. Their pride was stronger than their wisdom, and even tho they saw Him do what the Messiah was to do, they let the pride win in them.

    We should not think it strange that we have not solved all the mysteries written into the Bible. When Jesus read from Isaiah at the Temple, He only read the first part of a sentence which spoke of His purpose at His first coming. The rest of the sentence spoke of Who He will be when He comes again, this time to rule. God is in full charge of when and how revelation is to come to us.

    And no matter how many verses we memorize, we will not know more than He wants us to know at any given time. Little revelation can come from dwelling on proving a verse tops someone else’s verse. Many do this and do not realize they are trying to glorify themselves, as if this was a competition to win. Many also are blind and don’t know they are trying to rule over others by showing them the verse they should follow. There is NO love in those ways.

    So, I believe it is only now time for the revelation of different destinies for the Bride and the Jews. Is it not true that the Jews in the Millenium can die? Is it not true that when the Bride sees Jesus as He is, She will become like Him, with bodies that cannot die? You can read those stories and see this for yourself, if you look at the whole pictures He shows us. Love, Dave

  72. The Prodigal Son said

    … Then He began to tell the people this parable: “A certain man planted a vineyard, leased it to vinedressers, and went away for a long time. Now at vintage-time he sent a servant to the vinedressers, that they might give him some of the fruit of the vineyard. But the vinedressers beat him and sent him away empty-handed. Again he sent another servant; and they beat him also, treated him shamefully, and sent him away empty-handed. And again he sent a third; and they wounded him also and cast him out…

  73. The Prodigal Son said

    Then the owner of the vineyard said, ‘What shall I do ? I will send my beloved son. Probably they will respect him when they see him.’ But when the vinedressers saw him, they reasoned among themselves, saying, ‘This is the heir. Come, let us kill him, that the inheritance may be ours.’ So they cast him out of the vineyard and killed him. Therefore what will the owner of the vineyard do to them ? He will come and destroy those vinedressers and give the vineyard to others. “

  74. The Prodigal Son said

    … And when they heard it they said, “Certainly not !” Then He looked at them and said, “What then is this that is written: ‘The stone which the builders rejected Has become the chief cornerstone’ ? Whoever falls on that stone will be broken; but on whoever it falls, it will grind him to powder.” And the chief priests and the scribes that very hour sought to lay hands on Him, but they feared the people – for they knew He had spoken this parable against them. ~~~ ~~~ ~~~ Luke 20:9-19…

  75. John Kaniecki said

    David,

    Hi hope you are well.

    I can understand what you are saying. In paticular with prophecy but with all teachings in the Bible we hear a lot. In my own walk I have been taught things that do not stand up to scripture.

    If you can not site specific scripture for the things you believe then I suggest you get to work. This would be benefical for yourself and for teaching others.

    Love,

    John

  76. The Prodigal Son said

    Dear John K., ~~~ I wouldn’t hold your breath waiting for evidentiary scriptures from D. Williams… just as the other Williams (Reverend Liar) cannot provide evidence of the ‘2000 missiles’… (as if the Jew owned Media would not have SHOUTED IT from the mountaintops !…) ~~~ It’s hard to back up bullsh**t !

  77. Diane said

    Matt 21:43-44
    “Therefore I say to you, the KINGDOM OF GOD will be taken from you and given to a nation bearing the fruits of it”

    Jesus explains the “vineyard” is the “Kingdom Of God”, and that is what was taken away (or the stewardship of presenting the message of salvation would not be solely the Jews, but would be done through both Jews and Gentiles). He doesnt say the people of Israel would never have land or a home.
    ———–

    Mark 9:1
    And He said to the, “Assuredly, I say to you that there are some standing here who will not taste death tell they see the Kingdom of God present with power.”

    The Kingdom of God is not the “land of Israel” but God’s presence in the hearts of His people.

  78. David L. Williams said

    John, if you read my posts, you will see I said I will not enter a verse vs verse argument. I did not say I cannot. I have tried to show that this way is more often a way to show status of who knows the Bible best, and that is not profitable. I also tried to show that people who do this do not even know their own inner motives.

    Very often this comes from still having an inner need to show people we are significant. If you think back to your childhood, perhaps you remember when things got traumatic to us and we did not know why, we vowed that “someday i will show those authorities I am important.” Even tho that vow is forgotten by the next day, it has power and remains an expectancy within us. When we grow up, we find ways to show we are significant, after all, and do not know this is our inner motive. This is why it is futile to argue Scriptures with many. Often when some find they cannot use their wiles with verses on another, they resort to name calling, as we see above. That also harkens back to their childhood frustrations.

    As i saw on another site today where an incessant argument was taking place, one of them quoted a verse from Jesus; “Ye think by searching the scriptures ye can find eternal life.” In that case, using that verse was quite proper. Jesus was not telling us He did not want us to read the Scriptures. He was showing how they had made the Bible an idol, rather than knowing God in a personal relationship. Love, Dave

  79. Diane said

    I think in any discussion things can get heated.

    John, I understand your belief that people shouldnt use the word reverend before their name, but I believe Patrick has added information to this discussion, that youve wanted support for, but to address him as “the other” is completely inappropriate.

    Prodigal, Why the profanity? Astericks dont cover your real intent. Is your foul language representing satan or Christ? You have opinions, then lets discuss them honestly…our brother Patrick has things to say that we can benefit from.

    Your belief that people who dont see things the way you do are not “real born again believers” is also something that needs to be addressed. If you are genuine in your desire to discuss this issue, please address the questions above with an attempt to dialogue not divide.

  80. John Kaniecki said

    Prodigal Son,

    Hi hope you are well.

    Indeed there are many lies out there. I believe the 2000 missles launched into Israel is one. But in defence of Williams he may believe that to be true. Many people have been lied to. For example in the Gulf of Tonkin are ship was never attacked by the North Vietnamese. The US government has said this themselves. Also the German Reichstag was burnt down by the Nazis but blamed on the communists. Many were greatly influenced by those lies.

    So I have questioned Williams as to the origin of his statement. I would like to see some evidence even if from a pro Israeli group. For the moment give him the benefit of the doubt.

    As far to David Williams I do not want a debate just some basic scriptures that teach what you believe. Psalm one “But his delight is in the law of the Lord, and in his law doth he meditate day and night.”

    Diane,

    I am working to get that web site about the Jewish ancestry. I need to consult a friend. But use some simple reasoning. Ishmael was Issac’s brother. What skin color was Ishamel’s decendents? What color are all the people who live in the Middle East?

    Love,

    John

  81. Diane said

    John,

    ????. Youve never talked to me about a website about Jewish ancestry, nor I to you. My comment was directed specifically to Nan, though I dont mind you answering that question for her as long as we dont go out on a never ending tangent, trying to prove things we cant.

    My father is mixed with black and mexican. He married my mother, who is black, indian and probably somewhere in my ancestry, someone is white because the complexion of my mother’s skin is very light. Now, because my father looks like a mexican, as well as one of my brothers, does that mean Im not his descendent because I look African American? I dont think we should try this reasoning on such a serious accusation concerning Israel.

    Ishmael is not a son of Israel, but his uncle, and Sarah wasnt an Egyptian.

  82. Solar said

    David W.
    Your argument for lacking scripture does not hold up in this day and age. Far too often preachers preach, and prophets say “thus saith the Lord” with words of nonsense and total misapplied scriptural foundations that only tickle the ears of the hearers. I don’t think a verse by verse debate was suggested only some scripture backing up your thoughts on Israel still being God’s physical kingdom. You said “So, I believe it is only now time for the revelation of different destinies for the Bride and the Jews”. What does that mean and what scriptures do you back that statement up with? I am in no way trying to attack you, so don’t even come back with that angle. I am interested in how you got to where you are in your thinking on this. I read an article a while back that really got me going down a different trail in regards to the nation of Israel. You can read it at http://www.searchingtogether.org/articles/zens/israel.htm

  83. David L. Williams said

    Jesus spent a lot of His time exposing that the religious leaders of His day were blind to Spiritual meanings. They only saw the Law, and since they were in charge, they enjoyed putting the Law on others. They loved stroking their own status by doing this. They did not have the concern of those under them in mind.

    Since this was from the devil, as Jesus exposed, do we think the devil would not use the same method on today’s NT Christians? To teach people to follow the Law today is common in Christianity, all the while saying we are free from the Law and now are under grace. Doubletalk.

    We get born again and go to church, just as traditions tell us to. Since we are new to the Christian beliefs, we think this is the proper way, as we see the other people sitting in church agreeing with all they are taught. We learn to blend in what we learn with our personality, and lean one way or another in how strongly we believe and fight for from what we have learned. We find what feels best, and try to convert others to follow what WE FEEL is right. That includes quoting Scriptures AT people to persuade them.

    We need to understand spiritual things, but concentrate on giving out the Law, instead. And again, we do not know that is what we do. Remember Jesus’ words on the cross? “Father, forgive them for they know not what they do.” A fool does not let the Holy Spirit search our hearts to see if we also need that same forgiveness for not knowing what we do. Love, Dave

  84. Hope said

    Dear PJ,

    You wrote:
    “I would like to believe as a Christian, i would respond biblically, according to the word of God.”
    You limit “respond biblically” to a few Scriptures from the NT. The Bible consists of the Old and New Testaments. As believers in and followers of Jesus Christ we live under a New Covenant but that does not mean that we exclude the entire Old Testament when seeking to understand the whole truth in complex and important issues. The Old Testament is written for our learning as the scriptures state. There is much for us to learn about God, ourselves, life the future and history from it. We reduce our knowledge of truth to our peril if we reject the entire OT.

    In Luke 22:36 the Lord Jesus said, “let him who has no sword sell his robe and buy one.” Our Lord is telling his disciples to get a sword for self-defence.

    Our Lord Jesus used a whip to drive the money changers out of the temple. This is not to incite others to do the same! It’s to illustrate a fuller picture of our Lord.

    PJ, if I take your thinking to it’s logical conclusion evil people with violent intentions would not be resisted by force to protect others. Would you not protect your own children from a person who wanted to rape or hurt them? I think we are given every right by the Scriptures to do so.

    Romans 13:3-4 tells us government is ordained by the Lord to be a punisher of evil doers, a minister of God, an avenger who brings wrath upon the one who practices evil. My point being there is more to this issue than the few Scriptures you responded with or the reasons you stated to Devon regarding absolute right and wrong. I do not think governments are Christian BUT some governments are morally superior than others. Again, distinction need to be made. The points made above about the nature of Islamic Jihadists and their intentions are irrefutable. Failing to believe them and fight them if necessary puts civilization as we know it in jeoprady.

    Dear John, you commended PJ for standing up for the commands of Christ. I think you too are failing to take counsel of the entire Bible on these issues. War is horrible. It did stop Hitler so your comment about it not solving anything is not true. It was necessary to stop a evil man and regime. With totalitarian evil it is usually the only option. Again, I hate War and wish other options worked.

    Christians do look forward to the coming of Jesus Christ and the time of no more wars or sickness or suffering. We don’t know when He is coming, until then we occupy until He comes.

    PJ and John, both of you enjoy the FREEDOM of faith and speech to post your ideas safely because other Americans were willing to shed their blood and fight to give you that freedom.

    May our Lord Jesus by His Holy Sprit guide us into ALL truth in all things.

    http://www.freeminds.org/doctrine/war.htm

  85. Diane said

    Brother Williams

    I appreciate your insights and believe your contribution to be healthy for believers as a whole. Disagreements will always be, but “hatred” for Israel in the hearts of those professing to be born again, is from the enemy of God, and bondage for those embracing it.

    Differing viewpoints can be discussed, then individuals can either disregard or consider what’s been spoken. But a “hatred” toward Israel is not from our Saviour, and for the sake of those embracing this spirit, I pray that you would consider rejoining this conversation.

    Sincerely, Diane

  86. David L. Williams said

    Diane, I agree with you. I wouldn’t even continue in this conversation with John, but I see reason to hope for him. He really wants truth, but so far he limits his base of information to the Law. In this, he misses the undergirding Spiritual meanings in the Bible. Just as the Pharisees did. Same blindness, and I admit to once doing that to others in my past. PTL, I finally saw what the Lord wants us to see. Love, Dave

  87. Diane said

    Dave,
    I hope Patrick Williams returns.

    I can get pretty upset myself in these conversations, especially when we start talking past each other, no one is really listening anymore, truth is no longer the target… and then there’s the casualties that come from making sport out of very important issues. We do have to step back, and keep in mind what is important, without disengaging from issues that demand our voice.

  88. David L. Williams said

    yes, Diane. People’s souls are at stake, and I am desperate to not leave any stone unturned to keep people out of eternal punishment. It is easy to see from where Jesus tells some at judgment, those thot they were right in God’s will but were sent away because He never knew them. I fear that includes people who search the Scriptures but with an unknown inner reason that attacks people with verses, rather than seeing the love of God in them. They only see the letters, but do not see God’s intent in them.

    Granted, it is not easy to see these truths. Jesus told us that He calls many, but few are chosen. He said few would find the Narrow Gate, and few would take the hard path it opens to.

    I don’t think Rev. Patrick will leave us.

    Love, Dave

  89. Hi all:

    Brother Williams has not gone anywhere. I read this and smiled;

    just as the other Williams (Reverend Liar) cannot provide evidence of the ‘2000 missiles’…

    I love him anyhow. Even when I knw it will cause someone to hate me. Hate that is not from God but it an evil spirit at work in this persons hearts. In this is how all men shall know who is God’s servant; that he love all men. That is what seperates us from them. We go beyond having a form of godliness. Jesus also was called lair and he loved all the way to the cross. I am not upset and truly reach out in love for all of the people God has sent across my path. Love your enemies. Do good to those that harm you. Amen Dave!!! He knows what I mean. Thanks Diana for your uplifting words..

  90. Search the Web on Snap.com said

    David,

    God is Love – 1 John 4:16
    Mathew 22:37-40 “Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt Love the God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love they neighbour as thyself.. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.”
    All the law and the prophets.
    Galatians 5:14 “For all the Law is fulfilled in one word, even this; thou Shalt Love they neighbour as thyself.”
    As to who is our neighbour read the parable of the Good Samaritan.
    So when you say we don’t understand the Old Testament read what the Bible actually says about it. It is summed up in Love.
    Mathew 5:44 Love our enemies.
    Romans 13:10 “Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.” Again Love is the fulfilling of the law.
    Try turning the other cheek.
    Praying for those that despitefully use you.
    Allow vengeance to be taken by the Lord and not yourself.
    Feed your enemy when he is hungry.

    Regarding Romans 13 Read it in context of Romans 12:2 “And be not conformed to this world, but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is the good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.”

    2 Corinthians 10:3 “For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war in the flesh.”
    See Ephesians. The only weapon we are sanctioned is the Sword of the Spirit which is the Word of God.

    Now many people will fight in a war of man. “Wide and broad is the way to salvation and many walk down it, but straight and narrow is the path to life and few find it.”

    If we don’t have Love we don’t have anything. I Corinthians 13.

    You see Dave, I can back up what I say by scripture. It isn’t hard. I agree we should be led by the Spirit of God but some things are obvious.

    PJMiller I still commend you. You are on the right path. You humble yourself and allow scripture to teach you. Unfortunately so many go to scripture and try to twist it to make it say what they want to say. When they say we aren’t considering the whole text I say this. Look at Galatians 5:14 and Mathew 22:37-40. The Bible explicitly sums up the Old Testament in Loving your neighbour. I think it is the others who are blinded.

    Love,

    John

  91. John Kaniecki said

    John Kaniecki

    David and Hope

    God is Love – 1 John 4:16
    Mathew 22:37-40 “Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt Love the God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love they neighbour as thyself.. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.”
    All the law and the prophets.
    Galatians 5:14 “For all the Law is fulfilled in one word, even this; thou Shalt Love they neighbour as thyself.” The Law if fulfilled.
    As to who is our neighbour read the parable of the Good Samaritan.
    So when you say we don’t understand the Old Testament read what the Bible actually says about it. It is summed up in Love. It is you who are not rightly dividing the Word of God. The Word of God says the Old Testament is summed in Loving one’s neighbour not in justifying a physical war of men.

    Mathew 5:44 Love our enemies. Let’s see Love our neighbours and our enemies, why that includes everyone doesn’t it!

    Romans 13:10 “Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.” Again Love is the fulfilling of the law. Is dropping a bomb on somebody’s head working ill. You had better believe it.

    Try turning the other cheek it is a commandment not an option.

    Praying for those that despitefully use you.

    Allow vengeance to be given by the Lord and not yourself. Taking vengeance for yourself is not trusting in God.

    Feed your enemy when he is hungry.

    Regarding Romans 13 Read it in context of Romans 12:2 “And be not conformed to this world, but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is the good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.” So be in the world and not of it. A peculiar people.

    2 Corinthians 10:3 “For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war in the flesh.”
    See Ephesians. The only weapon we are sanctioned is the Sword of the Spirit which is the Word of God.

    Now many people will fight in a war of man. “Wide and broad is the way to salvation and many walk down it, but straight and narrow is the path to life and few find it.”

    If we don’t have Love we don’t have anything. I Corinthians 13.

    You see Dave, I can back up what I say by scripture. It isn’t hard. I agree we should be led by the Spirit of God but some things are obvious.

    PJMiller I still commend you. You are on the right path. You humble yourself and allow scripture to teach you. Unfortunately so many go to scripture and try to twist it to make it say what they want to say. When they say we aren’t considering the whole text I say this. Look at Galatians 5:14 and Mathew 22:37-40. The Bible explicitly sums up the Old Testament in Loving your neighbour. I think it is the others who are blinded.

    Love,

    John

    Job, I entered this comment on another name by accident, please delete it as it is reptition.

  92. Diane said

    Hi Patrick.
    Youre welcome. Thanks for your service for our country BTW. Is there a link of some sort that you may be able to post in response to John’s question about the missles?

  93. Diane said

    Hi John,

    If a sexual pervert wants to rape a woman, should she turn the other cheek or should she fight back?

    If a person enters your home to harm your children, do you turn the other cheek or do you fight to protect your children?

  94. Hope said

    Dear John,

    Love protects and stands for what is right in the face of evil. I did not twist scriptures to justtify war, I don’t have to, it’s in the scriptures. I was debating the issues.
    John, things are just not as simple as you seem to want to make them.
    God bless you.

    Hope

  95. Only Christian media reported on the missles falling on Israel.

    http://www.cbn.com/cbnnews/515466.aspx

  96. Devon said

    Actually the amount of missiles that have been thrown onto Israel by Hamas and Hizballah is much more then 2000 over the years…some accounts say upto 10000 missiles..

    And remember this folks, Hamas and Hizballah PURPOSELY attack civilians…the Israelies go to absurd lengths to avoid pali civilians…

    DO NOT try and morally equivicate this issue…Islam is a murderous ideology that has to be combatted with prayers and force…

    If there ever was a righteous war, this is it…just as when we fought hitlerism and marxism….

  97. I just wanted to post a link because so many of our brothers think Israel started this. But its been ongoing.

    http://www.cbn.com/media/?WT.svl=PgmMedCenButton#

  98. David L. Williams said

    I knew you would not leave us, Patrick. LOL. BTW, a day or 2 before I read Patrick’s 2,000 missile post, I had seen a report that 1,800+ missiles AND mortar shells had been fired into Israel from Gaza. When I saw Patrick’s post, I just assumed he had rounded off the number, and also had not heard or remembered that many of those were mortar shells.

    Since this is the way we normally go about life, I did not see fit to correct him. But a Pharisee would jump on anything, as long as it could make a point his opponent is wrong, and he is right. A Pharisee would also avoid that if it had only been ONE missile fired from Gaza, that was one too many. But they will not even talk about that, as it might dampen the truth they think they have.

    I think Jesus’ saying fits here, “You strain at a gnat and swallow a camel.” Love, Dave

  99. Diane said

    Thanks for the link Patrick!
    And God bless Doron Spielman and have mercy on Israel and all people truly seeking peace.

    Hey Devon.

  100. Diane said

    Dave,

    I think John at least tries to communicate in discussions, and we can all be pretty convinced of our position until the Holy Spirit gives us more understanding. I have had some pretty intense discussions though with hardcore people, who immediately came off attacking, but I dont think John is that way.

    You are very correct in your emphasis that we desperately need the aid of the Holy Spirit in understanding His Word.

  101. David L. Williams said

    Yes, Diane. So many think that becoming a Christian automatically makes us Spiritual. Well, it adds the Holy Spirit to us, but unfortunately, not all of us know the difference between hearing the Holy Spirit, the devil, and our flesh. Of course, it is the devil’s priority to make sure our flesh is listened to more than the Spirit. After all, the devil spent many years preparing our selfish flesh to speak loudest in us.

    Then when we read the Scriptures, we see how we can fit them to our selfish already-formed prejudices. If another comes with disagreement, they will demand Scripture to prove it. We can find verses to fit taking just about any stand on anything, right or wrong.

    The Holy Spirit was sent to bring all truth, but so many are unwilling to listen to truth, favoring their angry demeanor instead, and thinking they are zealous for the truth. So sad. Love, Dave

  102. I agree with your statement Dave. I flesh is great at pretending to be spiritual. It gives us everything we need to resist God while thinking we are correct in our thinking. I would like to post this last link and concerning missles strikes in Israel because I don’t want anyone to thnik I made it up.

    http://www.cbn.com/media/?WT.svl=PgmMedCenButton#

  103. Well that didn’t come out right, so I copied and paste. God bless.

    Jerusalem Dateline

    Chris Mitchell
    CBN News Middle East Bureau Chief

    Read Chris’s bio

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    JERUSALEM DATELINE
    Main Page >>>
    Israel Responds
    December 27, 2008

    “It’s bloody and messy.”

    That’s how one Middle East analyst described the situation in Gaza.

    As you’ve probably heard, Israeli planes began attacking Hamas targets in the Gaza Strip around 11:30 Saturday morning. The targets included weapons factories, training camps and Hamas headquarters.

    Israel stated the goal of its air campaign was to reduce the number of rockets being fired by Hamas and other Islamic groups into southern Israel. On Hamas’s Web site, they claimed more than 150 Palestinians have been killed, some of them civilians.

    Why the Israeli attacks?

    During the six-month cease-fire between Israel and Hamas from June 19 to December 18, Hamas and other Islamic groups fired more than 300 rockets into southern Israel.

    Since the end of the cease fire eight days ago, Hamas fired more than 200 rockets into Israel.

    In the three years since Israel completely pulled out of the Gaza Strip in September 2005, Hamas has fired thousands of rockets into Israeli towns like Sderot.

    Israel says there’s not a country in the world that would tolerate this as a sustainable situation.

    More than a quarter of a million Israelis now live within Hamas rocket range, under a state of high alert. In the past, some of them have asked rhetorical questions like, “What would the U.S. do if Canada started firing rockets from Windsor, Ontario, into Detroit?

    Israel’s military operation might last for several days. Tragically, civilians have been killed already and others might be caught in the crossfire in the coming days. It’s gut wrenching to see families, women and children suffer and die. In the midst of this situation though, it’s important to keep a few things in mind:

    Hamas purposely establishes its military bases, missile factories and headquarters within civilian areas. This makes it extremely hard for Israel to target legitimate military targets and avoid civilian casualties. Many of these Palestinian civilians then become human shields for Hamas’s military. If they die, Hamas considers them “shahids” or martyrs.
    Israel used a variety of means to warn civilians in Gaza of an impending attack.
    For years, Hamas has indiscriminately fired rockets, missiles and mortars into civilian areas in southern Israel. The range of Hamas’s rockets has increased significantly and, as noted, more than a quarter of a million Israelis are now in range. Israel says it felt it had to respond to defend its own citizens.
    Hamas is engaged in jihad or “holy” war. They are trying to eliminate Israel and take control of lands once controlled by Islam.
    One of the points in their charter states: “The day that enemies usurp part of Moslem land, jihad becomes the individual duty of every Moslem. In face of the Jews’ usurpation of Palestine, it is compulsory that the banner of jihad be raised.” (Article 15) This explains their incessant rocket attacks against Israel. Their goal, however, does not end with eliminating Israel but with establishing an Islamic caliphate in the Middle East on its way to the worldwide domination by Islam.
    Iran is providing funding, training and equipment to Hamas.
    Ironically, Israel provides 70 percent of Gaza’s electricity, while Hamas targets the power plant providing that electricity into Gaza for its own people. Israel also allows tons of humanitarian aid and food on days when the crossings are not being fired upon by Hamas.
    One Middle East analyst I spoke with believes this will be a limited Israeli action and not a comprehensive drive to topple the Hamas regime in Gaza.

    However, he said it’s important to note the Hamas of 2000 is not the Hamas of today. Although it does not match Israel’s army, it’s now better trained, organized and equipped than ever. If Israel does go in on the ground, he warns, it will be a bloody campaign for both sides.

    In the meantime, Hamas has called on its military wing to do “whatever is necessary” in retaliation. That could include suicide bombers within Israel itself. A source in Israel’s border police told me “the streets are lighting up” in neighborhoods throughout Jerusalem as Palestinian Arabs express solidarity for the Palestinians in Gaza. Leaves for the Border Police have been cancelled and the nation is on high alert.

    In the midst of the Christmas season, it looks anything like “peace on earth.” It’s a time to pray particularly for innocent lives on both sides to be spared. It’s a time to pray for wisdom for the leaders in this region and around the world and if there ever was a time to pray for the peace of Jerusalem, now is the time.

  104. Diane said

    May God have mercy on Israel and all those who seek peace.

  105. pjmiller said

    Hi Job and all

    I dropped back in today just to see if the original question posed: “Do Evangelical Christians Consider The Plight Of The Palestinians?” had been given further thought or comment. It doesn’t appear to have really been addressed.

    Perhaps it impossible for Christians in the West to consider the plight of the Palestinian people, or any people in the middle east, other then Israel. I don’t know–but it appears, sadly, to be the case.

    Hope you stated:

    “This is a complex important issue and not an easy one to address”

    I guess i just don’t see the complexity of it if we’re to look to the word’s of Christ as an example of how Christians are to respond to all people.

    Its only when we as followers of Christ begin to look at this or any issue and how we are to respond, outside of the commands of Christ, that the issue becomes complex.

    The wonderful new covenant is very simple to understand…even for the ‘simpliest’ of the simple, like me.🙂

    I like Spurgeon’s thoughts on war:

    “The Church of Christ is continually represented under the figure of an army; yet its Captain is the Prince of Peace; its object is the establishment of peace, and its soldiers are men of a peaceful disposition. The spirit of war is at the extremely opposite point to the spirit of the gospel.”

    “The Lord’s battles, what are they? Not the garment rolled in blood, not the noise, and smoke, and din of human slaughter. These may be the devil’s battles, if you please, but not the Lord’s. They may be days of God’s vengeance but in their strife the servant of Jesus may not mingle. We stand aloof. Our kingdom is not of this world; else would God’s servants fight with sword and spear. Ours is a spiritual kingdom, and the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but spiritual, and mighty through God, to the pulling down of strongholds.”

    “Far be it from us to lay the blood of men at God’s door. Let us not for one moment be guilty of any thought that the sin and the iniquity which have brought war into the world is of God.”

    God bless you all in your quest for truth and in seeking the heart of Jesus concerning this issue.

    pj

  106. I couldn’t help but show this to some Christian friends and we had a good laugh.

    I wouldn’t hold your breath waiting for evidentiary scriptures from D. Williams… just as the other Williams (Reverend Liar) cannot provide evidence of the ‘2000 missiles’… (as if the Jew owned Media would not have SHOUTED IT from the mountaintops !…) ~~~ It’s hard to back up bullsh**t !

    Is this man a Christian? He swears quit well in his flesh. LOL

  107. Hope said

    Thank you, those who are for standing with Israel in prayer and discourse in her hour of need. May you be rewarded for your righteous and loving position. The Palistinian Christians and their plight were addressed by most in previous comments that we were praying for them and for the lost as well. The subject led to these other issues.
    I believe now more than ever all anti-Semitism must be resisted, especially by the followers of the Lord Jesus Christ. It is no different than hating someone for the color of their skin. It is evil.
    God Bless,
    Hope

  108. Diane said

    Hi PJ.

    I believe the Palestinians are in a very very difficult situation, but if their solution is to blame Israel, their situation will not improve. They should, if they can (it could possibly cost them their very lives) try to work with Israel, seeing the Arabs have only lied to and used Palestinians in the past, which is why they were displaced to begin with. I agree with you, this is a heartbreaking time, they, and all the world need our prayers, and real solutions.

    ^^^^^

    Question:

    If a homosexual attempts to rape a young individual, would you tell that person to turn the other cheek, and submit to those who have authority over him, or should he fight back?

    If a sexual pervert wants to violate a woman, should she turn the other cheek, or should she fight back?

    I also believe Hope answered your questions above.

  109. Diane said

    PJ and John

    I think hearing people from both sides of this discussion is important, especially for Christians and I thank you guys for giving your points of view, however our comments and questions have gone unanswered.

    prayerfully
    Diane

  110. Devon said

    PJ Miller, you are asking if we consider the plight of Palis?? Well, considering that most Palis support murderous people like Hamas, the only consideration I give them is my prayers for their salvation and those that refuse to repent, need to be eliminated or imprisoned…

    The Lord never tolerated murder and sin in general…nor are we…

    Sadly, the Palis and the Islamic world have chosen evil and hatred..unless we protect ourselves with force, we will become their slaves..it is that simple..

    I feel little compassion for murderers…and Islam produces that when taken to the logical conclusion….thankfully, even Hamas members can be saved…as we have seen…outside of salvation, we need to destroy them…

    Again..this is simple..the blood lies at the feet of the Islamic terrorists…whether in Phillipines, Thailand, India, Bangledesh, NW China, North Nigeria, Yemen, KSA, Algeria, Iraq, Iran, West Bank and Gaza, Egypt, England, America, Sudan…..whew..quite a list…and what do they all have in common?

    Radical brutal islam…either they are wiped out or we are….

    Obviously the best solution is to see them all saved…outside of that, force must be used ….and rightfully so…

    No PJ, I have no compassion for murderers…only that they get saved….since I support Capitial Punishment, I have no problem with wiping out hamas or hizballah or any other islamic terrorists groups…

    I would suggest opening your eyes and study what Islam entails….it is no different then Nazism or marxism…

  111. The Prodigal Son said

    David, ~~~ You said, “Jesus spent a lot of his time exposing that the religious leaders were blind to spiritual meaning. They only saw the Law…” ~~~ You are correct… but why not tell us – WHAT LAW ?… Never mind – you love the Synagogue of Satan (centered in ‘israel’, preparing to rebuild the Temple…), so I’ll tell YOU and any others with delusional logic… ~~~ Jesus railed against the Pharisees, chased them from the Temple with a steel-tipped scourge (not a whip !). Why ? Because they followed the Pentateuch – The WRITTEN LAWS ?… NO ! ~~~ That, dear David is what you would have people believe… but people who love TRUTH will know that Jesus railed against the Pharisees because they followed the so-called * ORAL LAWS * (traditions of men) which made the commandments of God OF NO EFFECT ! ~~~ So please don’t be misleading, while refusing to back up your nonsense w/ scriptural references… Christians are supposed to love TRUTH, to which the Word of God can ALWAYS be reconciled !

  112. The Prodigal Son said

    Now these ‘Oral Laws’ which God hated so much that He Himself came to battle these Jews (and their father – the Devil), and to bring Salvation to those who would follow Him… ~~~ to follow Him meant REJECTING the Oral Laws, and returning to obeying God’s Will, through Christ – WHO * IS * GOD ! ~~~ If one rejects Christ – are they not Anti-Christ ? Of COURSE THEY ARE ! Pharisees were the ORIGINAL Anti-Christs !…

  113. Diane said

    Prodigal

    True Jesus did address the Pharisees teaching as commandments of God, the teachings of men AND not understanding what was written.

  114. The Prodigal Son said

    So is there anyone on earth today who adheres to these ‘Oral Laws’ that God hated – today ? Why YES, there IS ! ~~~ Who are they ? They are the FAKE Jews of today (hint : you will know them by their fruits) who run the criminal, murderous state of ‘israel’ (Black Israel)… The Human Genome Project proved CONSISIVELY, through DNA analysis that the MAJORITY of those who call themselves ‘jews’ (Revelation 2:9) are, in fact NOT SEMETIC ! This is why they are Hellbent on destroying the scientifically proven REAL semetic people (ARABS & PALESTINIANS) ~~~ So, Can we now be privy to these ‘Oral Laws’ ? Yes, we can ! They are recorded for all to see in the Jewish/Babylonian Talmud, of which Encyclopedia Judaica says – they are the ‘Oral Laws’ of Jesus’ time – regrettably put to paper sometime after the Crucifixion… ~~~ Encyclopedia Jdaica (and the Soncino Talmud) also tells us that the Judaism of today is the direct, unchanged descendant of the Pharisaism of Jesus’ time ! ~~~ Amazing ! They’re STILL HERE !

  115. Diane said

    !!Wow!! Lol, Prodigal!!

    You believe the descendents of Jacob/Israel are Arabs!! Wow, so what happened to or who are Ishmael descendents???

    Some of the Pharisees became Christians….

  116. The Prodigal Son said

    For anyone who was offended by an ‘s’ & a ‘t’ and a couple of asterisks, I do apologize. (FYI : It’s an acronym for ‘ship high in transit’ for cargo of fertilizer on an ocean bound vessel… to disperse methane… You definitely wont like ‘fellatious use of carnal knowledge’ then ! ~~~ If anyone wishes to learn more about the ‘Oral Laws’ recorded in the Jewish Babylonian Talmud – Which is the ULTIMATE AUTHORITY in Judaism today, and supersedes the Five Books of Moses in the Pentateuch… please visit : Come-and-Hear.com to view the Soncino Talmud in it’s entirety… ~ For just a taste, I’ll post a few direct quotes over on the article entitled ‘Does Israel have the right to exist ?’ on this blog… ~~~ See you there !

  117. Diane said

    Prodigal

    Whether it is the Talmud, Koran, James Cone etc., it makes no difference and is not relative to this discussion.

    Why have you ignored the questions we’ve asked?

  118. John Kaniecki said

    Greetings,

    Hope you are well.

    As a rule I don’t answer hypothetical questions. Let me pose one to you. “You are on the corner and see a baby in the middle of the road. You see a car coming and know that you are the only hope for the child. But you know that if you save the child you will die. What will you do?”

    I think like me you would say that you would rush into the road and save the child. That is the answer I would like to give. But I know from experience that when things such as this happens it is a bang bang moment. That is you have to respond so fast you have no time to think but only to react.

    So with regards to your hypothetical questions I can only speculate. But I know this that God promises us that we will not be tempted beyond our means. I think that the Amish gave a great example in how they will not participate in war and are non violent.

    As regarding Biblical examples of turning the other cheek I can give you Paul, Peter, John Stephen and of course our Lord Jesus. In fact Peter and John praised God after they were beaten.Acts 5:40-41.

    Now if you don’t believe turning the other cheek is restraining from doing physical violence then please explain the words of Jesus in Mathew 5:29 and Luke 6:29.

    Note turning the other cheek is not doing nothing. It is taking the blow and offering to take another blow.

    Love,

    John

  119. The Prodigal Son taught a very important lesson today. The effects of smoking crack. I’m sure he believes the descendents of Jacob/Israel are Arabs. Wow!
    People teach your children not to do drugs.

  120. The Prodigal Son said

    Diane, I don’t ‘believe’ that Palestinians have Semetic Blood… I KNOW they do… as I have said it has been scientifically PROVEN – thru DNA ! ~~~ Even concientious Jews know and have written about this… just Google ‘Human Genome Project’… VERY REVEALING & totally supports Revelation 2:9… ~~~ Yes, some Pharisees became Christians… St. Paul himself was a Pharisee. The key word being ‘WAS’… by becoming Christian, Paul and ‘a remnant’ were grafted on to the tree (Israel) which was STRIPPED OF IT’S BRANCHES… this is of course how Jews and Gentiles alike will become part of the Israel of God… and NO OTHER WAY !

  121. DianeR said

    John,

    Those are questions that you must answer. You need to test your understanding of God’s will in those matters and explain what Jesus meant by taking up your sword. You cannot refuse to address all that has been mentioned from the Word of God and from real situations, and then condemn war, though you see clearly that Jesus used war to deal with Israel enemies and wicked nations.

  122. Diane said

    John,

    Those are questions you must answer. You need to test your understanding of God’s will in those matters and explain what Jesus meant by taking up your sword. You cannot refuse to address all that has been mentioned from the Word of God and from real situations (not hypothetical), and then condemn war, though you see clearly that Jesus used war and His people in these wars to deal with Israel’s enemies and wicked nations.

  123. The Prodigal Son said

    Thank you,’ Reverend’… there’s a glimpse of the REAL you ! Please sir… come out of that darkness ! The Light travels along with TRUTH – NOT PROPAGANDA. ~~~ Regardless, the article you provided DOES NOT say that ‘2000 missiles’ were fired at Israel (during the ceasefire) BEFORE the current slaughter began, rockets were fired after ISRAEL broke the ceasefire on NOV. 5th ! ~~~ And what of it ? There have only been FIVE Israelis killed and FOUR of those were victims of ‘friendly fire’… so perhaps ONE Israeli has been killed in an act of self defence AFTER Israel broke the ceasefire – during which Hamas had fired no rockets… How many Palestinians have been slaughtered, weakly fighting back ? OVER SEVEN HUNDRED… ~~~ ONE HUNDRED OF THEM CHILDREN !

  124. John Kaniecki said

    Diane,

    The Bible teaches that a Christian should not participate in carnal war. See my post 89. We are only to conduct spiritual war.

    If I was called to go to war such as in a draft, which is highly unlikely in my circumstances I would only serve in a non violent capacity such as a medic. Or as the Amish do I would be a conscientous objector.

    When Jesus was born the angels proclaimed this to the shepards, “Glory to God in the highest, and on Earth peace, good will toward men.” One of the Lord’s titles is Prince of Peace.

    I can testify that I was struck and then turned the other cheek. At the time I was physically fit as my friend was. The man who struck me was drunk and wanted money to go drinking. When I refused to give him any money he struck me. What should I have done? Beaten him up. Would that have taken away my pain? No it would have accomplished nothing.

    Recall these words of Jesus, “He who lives by the sword shall die by the sword.”

    There are an infinite hypothetical questions that could be asked.

    You have not however answered my questions as I have yours.

    What did Jesus mean then by turning the other cheek?

    If you Love your enemy how can you kill him?

    Furthermore concerning war there are many ways to stop it. Do you know about Dietrich Boenhoeffer and his opposition to the Nazis? He was a pacifist and refused to go along with fascism. I see this country getting closer and closer to fascism. We are occupying two sovereign nations that haven’t even attacked us.

    No it you that must face the scriptures and understand what Jesus was really about. You can’t have Jesus without a cross.

    Luke 9:23-24 “If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall loose it: but whosoever shall loose his life for my sake, the same shall save it.”

    Notice I give plenty of scriptures.

    Oh here’s a hypothetical question to you.
    “What if you were going to be killed but could be saved by deny Christ? Or What if someone was going to kill your relative unless you denied Christ?”

    Unlike your questions this is a practical one that has faced Christians through the ages.

    Love,

    John

  125. Diane said

    Prodigal,
    if your so concerned about the loss of life, then why arent you opposing the attacks on Israel. There are reports of 10,000 missiles being launched on Israel from a report at wnd.com from Burt Prelutsky.

  126. Diane said

    John,

    I have done both, turned the other cheek, and used self defense in such a way that restrained the evil of the other person.

    You are not using righteous judgement if you believe that that applies to EVERY situation. Jesus was not teaching ‘women allow men to rape you’, ‘young men allow an elder pervert to…’, ‘allow people to come into your home and ..’ because I command you to >turn the other cheek<. Luke 9:23-24 are grotesquely out of context for the examples I gave you.

    God forbid I pray the day would ever come that someone would do something to a loved one to get me to deny Christ, but I believe if that day ever came, that the Lord would give me the grace to remain faithful.

    Those are 2 different scenarios.

    No you havent answered all of my questions, you are not being honest with God, yourself, and others when you say that. I think it’s better to admit our need to not place a judgement on things beyond our understanding, than to place a blanket judgement on every situation.

  127. The Prodigal Son wrote:

    Regardless, the article you provided DOES NOT say that ‘2000 missiles’ were fired at Israel (during the ceasefire) BEFORE the current slaughter began

    That is over the years sir. How much is enough. Does Israel have the right to stop the attacks of Hamas? I have a friend who is a missionary in Israel. These same people danced in the streets on 9/11 shouting god is great. Their god, allah. They were Muslims. These same Muslims who side with Hamas and against all Christians (yourself included) and Jews.
    They would kill you for preaching Christ in Palestine. Yet you’d rather not defend yourself against them?

    John: I believe is turning the cheek but;

    The Bible describes two elements of human nature and is helpful in judging government systems. Because humans are created in the image of God Gen. 1:26-27, they are able to exercise judgment and rationality. However, humans are also fallen creatures Gen. 3. This human sinfulness Rom. 3:23, has therefore created a need to control evil and sinful human behavior through civil government.

    I Peter 2:13-15… Submit yourselves for the Lord’s sake to every authority instituted among men: whether to the king, as the supreme authority, or to governors, who are sent by him to punish those who do wrong and to commend those who do right. For it is God’s will that by doing good you should silence the ignorant talk of foolish men.

    God’s response to a government in rebellion is judgment and removal, until such time as the government submits itself to God. Only then is its sense of reason and God’s blessing restored.

    Another result of man rejecting God’s authority is that he takes on the mind of, and becomes as an animal. A person with out conscience or a sense of right and wrong…with only a sense of passion and wrath, uncleanness, vile affections,a reprobate mind.

    Romans 1:17-32 describes the process, whereby, God gives a man up to this position of reprobate.

  128. The Prodigal Son said

    ‘Reverend’… Thank you for admitting that the article you provided does NOT prove your assertion that Israel attacked only after Palestinians had launched 2000 missiles into Black Israel… ~~~ You said, “They would kill you for preaching Christ in Palestine, yet you’d rather not defend yourself from them ?” ~~~ They are NO THREAT to any North American… how would they get here ? They can’t even leave Palestine ! Again, they have killed ONE ISRAELI ! *! ONE !* What would they do to me ? I would DEFEND them (the least of God’s Children)… and there are more Christians in Palestine than there are in Black Israel (where they burn New Testaments in the street, on orders from the mayor..) ~~~ The Qu’araan reveres Jesus and His Blessed Mother, the Virgin Mary… Tell me one Jewish religious text which says anything reverent about Jesus or Mary… You cannot because there aren’t any ! Jews HATE Jesus !

  129. The Prodigal Son said

    Diane… IF – as your Jewish source indicates – the Palestinians have fired 10,000 missiles… they must have really bad aim, since ONY ONE Israeli has been killed by them !

  130. Hope said

    This is a great article written by a Jewish man. If interested, be sure and read the comments, especially Michael Eden’s, a follower of the Lord Jesus Christ.

    http://theamericansentinel.com/2009/01/07/and-the-world-turns-a-blind-eye/comment-page-1/#comment-11645

  131. Hope said

    I implore all my true brethren in Jesus Christ, face the reality of what is happening! This hatred of the Jewish people simply because they exist must be resisted. It is of the evil one.

    “So once again, America stands alone beside its vital Mideast partner, and once again, the ensuing floodgates of Jew-hatred crash wide open, spewing the seeds of anti-Semitism even among those to whom the jihadists pose the greatest threat. And each time the world by-and-large falls for this remarkably transparent ruse, the peace-at-any-cost crowd become more mobilized while the hate-mongers grow all the more emboldened.”

    http://www.americanthinker.com/printpage/?url=http://www.americanthinker.com/2009/01/gaza_another_jihadist_ploy_to.html

  132. The Prodigal Son said:

    The Qu’araan reveres Jesus. They see him as a good prophet not the son of God. Because to them God has no son. I have studied the koran in bible college. Have you?

    Hope, that is so true. The entire fight is about Islam. Once Muslims possess a land for their allah, for it to be lost is an act of war. Even if they lost during battle jihad must be declared to reclaim the land. So if it weren’t Palestines it would Syria. And if not Syria then another muslim nation, to drive them out for the land that was once claimed by Mohammed.

  133. The Prodigal Son said

    Hope, ~~~ You said, ” … hatred of the Jewish people simply because they exist must be resisted. It is of the evil one…” ~~~ Who here hates anyone – except the enemies of God ? ~~~ I hate the racist, Judeo-supremecist, GENOCIDAL *ACTIONS* ! ~~~ Get it ? I hate what they DO ! I know them by their deeds ! They hate me, and unless you’re a Jew – they hate you too, Gentile ! ~~~ “Reverend” Williams…, you said, “… they see him as a good prophet, not the Son of God…” ~~~ Well then we can add them to EVERY OTHER RELIGION on the face of the earth… shall we KILL all of them, and steal their land too, ye false man of God ? ~~~ And AGAIN, your quote is more than what we can say for Judaism (Pharisaism)… they say Jesus was a sorcerer, and His Holy Mother was a whore ! Not to mention they served Him up to be crucified – because he reproved their Talmudic BLASPHEMY AGAINST THE COMMANDMENTS OF GOD ! ~~~ So who ya foolin’ ?

  134. The Prodigal Son said

    Deathtoll Update : 13 Israeli dead … VS. … 821 Palestinians. ~~~ This is not a war ! This is a slaughter ! May God, Our Lord Jesus save their souls ! I pray that the Innocent Palestinians are the Israel known only to God…

  135. Diane said

    Hope
    I read your link, and the video in the article was the one I referenced earlier. Im going to start looking for Christian ministries on the web that are proactive in this worldwide attack not only against Israel, Christians, US, Britian, but the whole world.

    I believe it may have been Burt Prelutsky that brought up the truth about the fact that the US didnt need the world’s permission to attack when suicide bombers attacked us at Pearl Harbor.

    Thanks for the article Hope.

    God bless Israel and all who truly seek peace

  136. Diane said

    Goodmorning Prodigal

    Jesus the Christ, Son of the Living God, loves the Jewish people.
    You cannot look at recent history from 1947-present without seeing the blessing and love of God for Israel.

    Jews and Gentiles crucified our Lord.

  137. David L. Williams said

    Diane and Patrick, they do not know they are fulfilling the prophesied end of days hatred for Israel. They have not even recognized that Israel was to be regathered from all the world and in one day, become a nation again. They do not look at the constant warfare sent by the devil against Israel in the Bible and recognize what is going on today is just a continuation. No, it seems they think God hates the Jews and has abandoned them. So they help God by hating them too. I’m sure God will thank them at judgment. Love, Dave

  138. John Kaniecki said

    Diane,

    Hi hope you are well.

    As regarding turning the other cheek is not appropriate in all situations I will contemplate that matter and keep it in mind as I read the scriptures.

    Despite Prodigal Son’s abrasive manner he makes a good point about the Talmud. You should investigate what the Talmud actually says. It really perverts the true teachings of God.

    If God has a physical kingdom on Earth as Willaim’s asserts they would follow the Torah or Old Testament and not the Talmud. Prophecy is very hard to understand.

    God Loves people of all nations. Israel was blessed in particular because from them came the messiah.

    I hate all war, it is the worst evil that man can do, in my opinion. I firmly believe the Bible teaches Christians should not participate in war. What if Christians went to war and then one Child of God slew another on the battlefield. No we are to fight a spiritual war.

    Let us all remember the our Father controls all things. That should give us comfort and confidence to do the work the Lord has put before us.

    Love,

    John

  139. Diane said

    Goodmorning Dave

    When a Jew (Peter) tried to prevent the crucifixion, Jesus rebuked him.

    But Jews dont seem to get credit for that one.

    The Torah, the prophets, the first Christians and Christ Himself came through the Jewish race.

  140. Diane said

    Good morning John and Patrick.

    John,
    Ive read passages from the Talmud and some of it is just as disturbing as the Koran, but that does not surprise me. In the days of Christ, these teachings had not been written, but the beliefs were passed down orally. Jesus warned us to beware of the teachings of men, and reproved the Pharisees for teaching those as the commandments of God. I am not aware of the extent of it’s influence in modern day Israel. Im sure they have a large secular population as well as orthodox believers who reject it’s authority, but as it relates to this discussion, I still believe Israel should be able to exist without being attacked on a daily basis.

  141. David L. Williams said

    John, if you misread the Bible as much as you misread what i say, you have a real problem. I DID NOT say the Jews are the present Kingdom of God. I said that one day, God will save all Israel, and that the millenium will be the Jews’ Kingdom of God. And that meanwhile, the Spiritual Kingdom of God (Christians) will also return to earth to rule and reign. Howbeit, we do not know if we will even be visible to the people of the millenium. That is still a mystery to me.

    God indicated that when he began dealing with Israel again after the age of the gentiles, that the Israelites would not recognize God is with them until they see how miraculously they survived the attack from the North. Yet this will not completely convert them, as they will listen to the anti-christ, thinking he is their messiah.

    When they see the anti-christ’s desolation of the Temple, they will know he is not their savior, and will flee. I don’t see the Israelis really having their blindness removed until Jesus has to explain to them what His wound scars mean. Love, Dave

  142. John Kaniecki said

    Diane,

    Hi hope you are well.

    My references to the Torah/Talmud is in regards to whether these people who claim to be Israel are faithful to God in Old Testament understanding. Recall what happened in the wilderness where they wandered forty years because of unbelief. Also Israel was exiled for their sins. The Bible is clear that Israel only receives God’s blessings when they are faithful.

    As regarding peace I believe every nation should have the right to live as they choose unmolested. Or as you put it on a daily basis.

    My problem with the invasion with Gaza are these.

    1 Nobody is addressing the primary problem which is the oppression of the Palestinian people who lost their homeland and are forced to live in terrible conditions. Angry, desperate people do violent things.

    2 I feel the response by Israel in not proportionate with the problem. That may be easy for me to say while I am not getting missles shot at me. But just look at the estimates of casualties and compare the numbers.

    3 And probably most important what problems will this invasion solve? The Bible teaches you reap what you sow. My heritage is from Poland. Do you know how some Polish people hate Russians and Germans with such a deep passion. Why? Because of a history of war.

    Picture this. A young man returns from work and comes home to see his wife and children blown up. Unless that man is very spiritual you have created an enemy or even a terrorist for life.

    What will the bombings solve? What will the killing solve? Man has been trying to solve problems with war for a long long long time and it has never worked.

    Only by breaking the circle of violence and hatred can one heal and thus pursue peace.

    The answer is of course Jesus.

    Let me leave you with this thought. Jesus who had done no sin has been arrested. He has been mocked, flogged and a crown of thorns is placed on his head. Then he is forced to carry his cross to Calvary to be crucified. There between two thieves he faces physical agony and pays the price of our sins. He could have called legions of angels down to save Him, after all He is God Himself. Instead He utters these words, “Father forgive them for they know not what they do.”

    Jesus gave a lot. He accepted pain, suffering and sacrafice. He asks us to follow his example. I could never picture Jesus dropping bombs on peoples head.

    Love,

    John

  143. David L. Williams said

    LOL, it does not seem to penetrate that we are not on the side of the evil Israel does. I have seen none of us say Israel is without sin. Israel has been suffering the effects of rejecting Jesus, and has not repented yet.

    Seems to me there are two arguments here. One, some think we blindly back Israel without seeing her evil. I think it is more like we see what the Bible says about Israel’s future, and all the prophesy regarding that coming Kingdom. We root for the Kingdom to come, but we don’t root for the present evil.

    Two, who cannot also see the evil in the enemies of Israel? Israel gave back the Gaza strip in hopes of peace. But the first day they left, rockets were fired into Israel from Gaza. They put up with this for a long time before responding with force.

    Proportional casualty counts? LOL. What a thoughtless accusation. If you do not understand what has been said in that regard above, you will never open your eyes to truth. LOL, I could demand you show me the verse that says retaliation should be proportional, but you would bring up an eye for an eye etc; as if that fit this situation. Why is is so hard to see that they are trying to hide among women and children so Israel has no choice but to shoot there where the shots are coming from? Can you not see they care for no life, but only to make Israel a thorn in everyone’s side world wide?

    Will you concede that the Palis put women and children out as a shield because they know the world will frown on Israel, rather than them?

    And oh how successful they have been. Look how the UN and media blame Israel for the whole thing, blinding their eyes to the Palis’ part in it all. Oh well. Love, Dave

  144. Diane said

    John

    in your earlier comment you didnt reference the Torah which contains the Prophets and are not in connection with the oral laws (as Jesus would caution against), but you stated Prodigals mentioning of the written Talmud. Israel and the Church has experienced periods of revival and apostasy and periods in between.

    I dont know how well Israel was obeying God, when God raised up Jephthah and Gideon to deal with the people of Ammon and Midian, but when you read the spiritual conditions of those times, it is pretty shocking.
    ============
    1 I have mentioned on this thread, and Devon addressed it as well, that it has been the lies of the Arabs, as well as, their own willingness to harbor people attacking Israel. John you know that God Himself avenges attacks on people who want peace.

    2 Do you think 60yrs of asking for peace is in proportion for how they have been treated? There were Jews that never left that land, there were also Jews that returned before 1947 and purchased land. You cannot justify the attack on these people.

    3 What problems did wwii solve? I hope you dont think diplomacy and appeasement worked with him? People were also praying during that time, and it is my belief, in response to those prayers God initiated war.

    -I believe Israel has been an excellent example of breaking the cycle of violence

    -Can you picture Jesus telling men of God to kill the Amalekites etc?

  145. The Prodigal Son said

    All Israel WILL be saved… but WHO are ISRAEL ? Are ‘Jews’ Israel ? Israel wars AGAINST Jews in the Bible ! ~~~ There were 12 tribes of Israel ! Are ‘Jews’ of the tribe of Judah ? That would make them Judahites, wouldn’t it ? ~~~ Or are ‘Jews’ of the Biblical region known as Judea – which was just south of Samaria and Galilee? ~~~ Please, people ! The problem is that you must divorce the word ‘Jews’ and ‘Israel’ because they are NOT, AND NEVER HAVE BEEN ONE AND THE SAME ! It is a LIE, from the father of all lies… their god – the god of this age !

  146. Diane said

    Prodigal,

    Israel and Syria went to war against Judah (yes Jews are descendents of Judah-ALL Jews are sons of Israel).

    Are you possibly a new convert to Christ, from the Nation of Islam? This sounds like Farakan indoctrination.

  147. The Prodigal Son said:

    I know them by their deeds ! They hate me, and unless you’re a Jew – they hate you too, Gentile !

    I don’t see how they hate you. Can you explain?

  148. Diane said

    Hi Patrick.

    I was just reading “History of Israel and Palestine in VERY Easy To Understand Maps” at masada2000.org/historical.html, and was amazed at the fact that no one had ever claimed that land as their National Homeland since the Jews had 2000 years ago.

    “Jews had already begun mass immigration into Palestine in the 1880s in an effort to rid the land of swamps and malaria and prepare for the rebirth of Israel.”

    The name “Palestine” was designated to them in reference to “land” not “the name of a people” in 1923, by Britain, which included Jewish Palestinians, and Arab Palestinians.

    The land given to the Jews kept getting smaller and smaller and this is before the UN resolutions.

    But it makes me praise the Lord as I read that report of how the Jews will take a swamp and desert and turn it into a garden!!

  149. The Prodigal Son said

    Diane… you’re either very gullible… or you’re one of THEM ! Either way, you and Patrick need to check out my quotations from the Jewish Babylonian Talmud… in the ‘comments’ section of the article entitled ‘Does Israel have the right to exist’ – the latest posting on the main page of this ‘blog.~~~ ~~~ I’m VERY interested to hear what you’ll have to say about THAT !

  150. Diane said

    Prodigal,
    You cannot read the Gospels and the passages in 2 Kings and come to the conclusions you have about Jews and Israel. My comments about the Talmud is comment 137.

    Your opinion about the Jews not being Israel, didnt come from the Bible, so where did it come from?

  151. The Prodigal Son said

    The truth about WHO Israel are most certainly is found in the Bible… As I have stated… There were 12 tribes of the Original Children of Israel… The ‘Jews’ (translated either from Judahite or Judean… seemingly interchangably) were only 1 tribe – NOT ALL of Israel. ~~~ Regardless, as St. Paul himself said, with the coming of the Christ, that Christians had become the New Israel of God… Born in ONE DAY !

  152. Diane said

    Prodigal,

    Yes we agree, there are 12 tribes of Israel.

    After King Solomon’s slide into idolatry, God sent a prophet named Ahijah to Jeroboam an Ephraimite to tell him God was taking 10 Kingdoms away from Solomon and giving them to Jeroboam, because Israel had forsaken Him.

    The 10 Kingdoms given to Jeroboam became the Northern Kingdom “Israel” and the 2 remaining Kingdoms are the Southern Kingdom “Judah”.

    The Northern Kingdom “Israel” went into apostasy and into captivity to Assyria, leaving only the Southern Kingdom of “Judah”.

    Approximately 250 years later the Southern Kingdom of Judah also strayed from God which led to their captivity and exile to Babylon.

    After 70 years of captivity, as prophesied a remnant (the descendents of Judah “Jews”)returned to Israel to rebuild, and Praise be to God, they did, inspite of their enemies.

    All Israel in the flesh are Israel, but we are the spiritual Israel who are in Christ, both Jew and Gentile.

  153. Diane said

    John, I appologize. I just reread your comment and realized your comment about the Torah was in the second paragraph.

    Love
    Diane

  154. The Prodigal Son said

    Where in the Bible do you reference a distinction between Israel and a “spiritual” Israel ? Israel has always been spiritual – God’s divine will… when Israel obeyed God… they prospered… when they didn’t obey God they were punished, exiled by the hand of God… when Christ came, Israel was stripped of it’s branches – stripped ! Then, through Christ… the Gentiles were grafted onto the existing, branchless tree… a tree without brances can bear NO FRUIT ! along w/ a remnant of the Jews of the day (Paul, others), but the remnant too, must join Israel through Christ, and Christ ALONE !

  155. Diane said

    Romans 9:3-5
    “For I could wish that I myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my countrymen according to the flesh, WHO ARE ISRAELITES,…”

    They are Israel through physical lineage.

    “…to whom pertain the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the service of God and the promises; of whom are the fathers and from whom, according to the flesh, Christ came, Who is over all, the eternally blessed God. Amen”

    But those, who are born of God through faith in Jesus Christ, are called the children of promise.

    Rom 10:1
    “Brethren, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for Israel is that they may be saved.”

    They will never cease to be Israel…

  156. Hope said

    Amen to comment #155, Diane. You are to be commended for your patience, graciousness and persistence!

  157. The Prodigal Son said

    Again, you are absolutely right on w/ the scripture, but it is WHO you are applying it to today that is in error… ~~~ Today’s state of ‘Israel’ has NO CONNECTION to the Israelites in the Bible ! They are NOT EVEN JEWS – THESE ASHKE-NAZI IMPOSTERS HAVE STOLEN THE TITLE OF ‘JEW’ AND ‘ISRAEL’ !! ~~~ What you must ask yourself is – WHO are the REAL ISRAELITES according to physical lineage ? They are certainly NOT a bunch of RACIST, MURDEROUS CAUCASIAN WHITES (Ashke-nazis), who say they are Jews, and are NOT… BUT DO LIE ! (Revelation 2:9) ~~~ The REAL Israelites are the oppressed Palestinians, many REAL JEWS , the Sephardics which for centuries have lived and dwelt IN PEACE in the Holy Land, well as Iraq And Iran, Ethiopia… virtually everywhere… (diaspora) but I assure you they are NOT CAUCASIAN KHAZARS !! ~~~ [ I know you understand, you’re just talking around in circles… ]

  158. Hope said

    If the world thinks that forcing Israel into a truce with Hamas will stop the rockets, they are very wrong. It will only embolden Hamas and lead to the destruction of Israel.

    FIRST GAZA, THEN THE WORLD
    Some of Israel’s most blatant critics have written that for every Israeli killed, about a hundred Palestinians were killed. A half-truth is worse than a lie, but this is not even a half truth. This is deception. Because months and years of rockets fired at a civilian population are not a matter for bloody accounts. It is a nuisance that no country, neither Syria nor Sweden, would tolerate. It is a provocation that requires a tough response. And if we are already going for bloody accounts, we should do the overall math. We can suffice with just the accounting in the Arab-Muslim world.

    So, since the establishment of the State of Israel, close to 12 million Arabs and Muslims have been butchered, most of them by Arabs and Muslims. Israel’s “contribution,” since its establishment, is 60,000, and that includes all the wars and the two Intifadas. In other words, half a percent.

    And more importantly, the confrontation is not between Hamas with its rockets and Israel. The confrontation is between Hamas, as one of the entities that compose radical Islam, and the free world. Its declared goal is to establish a world Islamic caliphate as part of an anti Semitic ideology that also calls for the annihilation of the Jews. Explanations will follow. And since political Islam has already annihilated millions without any announcement, we should take it seriously when there is an announcement about annihilation.

    http://theamericansentinel.com/2009/01/10/news-from-sderot/

  159. Hope said

    Dear Diane,
    You mentioned in one of your above comments of looking into those who were standing with Israel in prayer and her right to defend herself against evil with force.
    There is a site mentioned in this article I thought might interest you.
    May our Lord Jesus bless you greatly.
    Hope

    “She represents the outpouring of evil against which Christians and Jews now fight, have fought and will fight against until time’s end.

    What she doesn’t know, though, is that evil is killing her and will kill her and even those with whom she allies herself.

    Just as it will kill Jews and others who refuse to bow to her evil, the world’s evil.

    That said, if you wish to show your support for Israel against the moral monsters she represents, those called Hamas and other terrorists, then go here, to Maggie’s Notebook, to sign a petition to be sent to President Bush, Vice President Cheney, Secretary of State Rice and President-elect Obama.

    Further, go here, to “The Oldest Hatred,” by Mark Steyn, to gain more insight to the assault against Jews and Israel that occurs now worldwide. Rightly so, he speaks of the pathologies of Europe that drive hatred there, even with school children, against the Jews.

    And if you are a Christian, please, as Psalm 122:6 says, “Pray for the peace of Jerusalem. . .”

    We all must stand against this evil, the stench of which fills not just the Middle East and Europe, but also, regrettably, our own country.

    We must stand against what appears to be the Second Holocaust against the Jews.”

    http://theamericansentinel.com/2009/01/10/you-need-a-big-oven-that%e2%80%99s-what-you-need%e2%80%9d/

  160. Hi Hope.

    I like your comments because they are true. You have; in a few statements, summed up the entire topic. Yes, thank you. Well said!!

    And if you are a Christian, please, as Psalm 122:6 says, “Pray for the peace of Jerusalem. . .”

    This is the greatest of all, by doing so,we are praying for the prince of peace to come and restore peace to a dying world. God bless.

  161. Diane said

    Hello Prodigal, Patrick, and Hope.

    Hope,
    I went to the link you posted, Thanks. I will also check out Maggie’s Notebook and The Oldest Hatred. I almost feel like America is in between denial and the initial shock stages that something like this can be happening here. But I still believe it’s not too late, not even for the Brits. . .

    Prodigal, Patrick & Hope
    The website that I posted about the “History of Israel and Palestine” is pretty informative, without alot of reading; they even have a 4 min animated presentation that gives you a pretty good synopsis of that current situation. It’s perfect for those who dont have a lot of time to read voluminous info on the subject.

  162. The Prodigal Son said

    … And I’ve got a site for you… that will give you a healthy dose of the TRUTH – which you poor, misguided people so DESPERATELY need ! ~~~ The website is called – What Really Happened.com – there you can find some reality, instead of the CLAPTRAP you’re presently spewing ! ~ Once you get there you’ll see they not only have realtime news headlines from around the world, but they also have a special editorial section. Many, TRUTHFUL, evidence-based articles on topics such as : 9/11 (perpetrated BY Israel), The War on Terror/Afghanistan, etc., as well as a sub-section dedicated entirely to Israel… In THAT section, click on “The Maps Tell the True Story”… goes WAY back to prove conclusively that Palestine DID EXIST, and was NOT the swampy, undeveloped, barren empty land that these fake ‘Jews’ claim it was when they invaded the area. ~~~ VERY informative, and irrefutable – provided with LOVE for those that LOVE the TRUTH, as I do… for it is the WAY…

  163. Diane said

    Prodigal,
    Your views about Israel do not come from Christ, Who should be your foundational source of truth. The warnings about bearing false witness should at least produce in your actions a “caution” about the accusations you are bringing forth concerning Israel. No circles here, you know that, and youre being insincere.

    How do you know who are the true people of Israel?

  164. Diane said

    Prodigal,
    I pray for you spiritually that you come into a better understanding of Christ. May the Holy Spirit be with you and guide you.

  165. The Prodigal Son said

    I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt, and tell you ONE MORE TIME ! ~~~ I KNOW because of the *Human Genome Project* (GOOGLE IT) that these Ashkenazi/Khazarian so-called ‘Jews’ have NO SEMETIC BLOOD IN THEM ! ~~~ Many so-called ‘Arabs’ DO HAVE SEMETIC BLOOD ! DNA testing does not lie, that’s why it is one of the main tools of forensic investigators and law enforcement. ~~ The real origin of these criminal, murderous Talmudic fake ‘Jews’ is the 7th century kingdom of Khazaria… which was in the areas currently known as Georgia and Khazakstan. It was here centuries after Christ that the king of Khazaria – concerned about the phallic worship of the people – decreed that the whole kingdom adopt the religion of Judaism. ~~~ It was these same NON-ETHNIC ‘Jews’ who would later finance/perpetrate the Bolshevik Revolution, and were responsible for bringing America/Canada into the First AND Second World Wars… with WWII beginning with a London newspaper headline in 1933 proclaiming, “Judea Declares War on Germany !”

  166. JesusChristisLord said

    Dear Rev Pat Williams,
    Thank you and yes, I am a follower of the Lord Jesus Christ and praying for Israel.
    Diane, I agree, keep praying and speaking the truth.
    Hope

  167. Hope said

    The best option for the Palestinian Christians would be for Hamas to be stopped. May the Lord Jesus have mercy on us all and deliver us from this evil!

    Hamas Reinstates Crucifixions of Christians
    Friday, January 9, 2009 5:05 PM

    By: Nicole Jansezian

    While the world focused on Hamas militants launching rockets from Gaza at southern Israel, the terrorist organization also voted quietly to implement Islamic law in the Gaza Strip, including crucifixion of Christians, according to reports in the Arabic press.

    The traditional Muslim criminal code, known as Sharia law, includes penalties such as amputation of limbs for stealing and the death penalty, including crucifixion, for actions Hamas deems detrimental to “Palestinian interests,” including collaborating with Israel.

    The new law was reported on the Al-Arabiya Web site and in the London-based Saudi-owned newspaper Al-Hayat, which wrote that the implementation of Sharia law has “brought criticism and concern from human rights organizations in the Gaza Strip.”

    But the media scarcely took notice when the decision was reported during the Christian holidays as fighting between Hamas and Israel escalated in late December.

    “Hamas’ endorsement of nailing enemies of Islam to crosses came at the same time it renewed its jihad,” Jerusalem Post columnist Caroline Glick wrote on Dec. 26. “Here, too, Hamas wanted to make sure that Christians didn’t feel neglected as its fighters launched missiles at Jewish day care centers and schools.”

    Christians are a minority in Gaza, numbering fewer than 2,000 residents among 1.6 million in the Strip. After Hamas came to power, the Islamic group began enforcing sharia law more strictly, though not officially. Christians were the first to feel the squeeze. Some Christian men felt compelled to grow beards and women donned head scarves to downplay their identities as non-Muslims.

    Sharia law is implemented fully in some nations, including Iran and Saudi Arabia. When Palestinian voters elected Hamas in 2006, organization spokesman Hamed Bitawi declared: “The Quran is our constitution, Muhammad is our prophet, jihad is our path, and dying as martyrs for the sake of Allah is our biggest wish.”

    Palestinian officials in Gaza denied the adoption of Islamic law. However, Palestinian Media Watch, an organization that monitors the Arab press, says the group is lying.

    “Contrary to today’s denials, official Hamas leaders have proudly announced in the Hamas-run media in the last two months that this Islamic penal code was being prepared,” the media watchdog said. “Indeed, senior Hamas leaders went so far as to say that when these laws are implemented, they will have force not only in Gaza but also in the West Bank.”

    Media Watch also noted that Hamas newspaper Al-Rissala reported, “The Bureau of Islamic Law is preparing a penal code in order to implement Sharia-Islamic Law.”

    Hamas has financial backing from Iran, which supplies the group with rockets and weapons used to attack Israel. Despite espousing separate branches of Islam — Hamas is Sunni; Iran is Shiite — the organization shares the expressed wish of Iran President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad to wipe out Israel. The Hamas charter states: “Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it.”

    Israel withdrew unilaterally, both residents and soldiers, from the Gaza Strip in 2005, leaving the territory entirely under Palestinian jurisdiction. Then, in a coup in 2007, Hamas took over the Gaza Strip, ousting its rival party Fatah and assassinating Fatah loyalists. Since then, rocket fire launched at Israel’s southern communities increased. In December, a six-month period of calm collapsed and led to Israel’s Operation Cast Lead, the bombings and attacks against Hamas militants in Gaza in retaliation for bombings of Israel.

    © 2009 Newsmax. All rights reserved.

  168. The Prodigal Son said

    Hope…, ~~~ In an exclusive interview with himself, Joshua asked The Prodigal Son what he thought of your latest post… The Prodigal Son in a breif statement this afternoon said, “Hope’s latest post – the WHOLE POST is the biggest, heaping, steaming pile of bovine excrement (that better, Patty ?) that I have ever seen ! It reeks of Zionist propaganda ! FOR SHAME, Hope… for shame !” ~~~ (C) 2009, TRUTH SHINING NEWS INC… A Division of The Christ’s Age.

  169. Hope

    Great piece. I’m going to forward it to other ministries that support Israel as well. Thanks.

  170. David L. Williams said

    Hope, Diane, Patrick, you’re telling the truth as it is, while under fire. But there may come a time to consider Mat. 7:6 as applicable. Love, Dave

  171. The Prodigal Son said

    Dear Jesus Christ is Lord… ~~~ I really like your name ! You must be getting a little flustered though… since you signed your post as “Hope” ! ~~~ These posts are so ridiculous, they probably ALL (except John K. & nan) come from the same computer… somewhere deep within the bowels of the ADL ! ~~~ (The same ADL that tried to prevent Mel Gibson from releasing his film ”The Passion of the Christ, AND called for a ban of the New Testament, with ADL director Abraham Foxman calling it ‘anti-semetic’) ~~~ Notice how I haven’t posted under 6 different names ? I stand alone… and still – TRUTH SHINES BRIGHTLY !

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