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What Is The Gospel Of Jesus Christ Supposed To Transform?

Posted by Job on December 23, 2008

Well, the news breaks from Apprising Ministries that James Dobson and Focus on the Family is promoting  Mormonism. (And that they also denounce people who oppose Roman Catholicism.) Really, this is no surprise. Allow me to explain why by asking a question: what is the purpose of the gospel of Jesus Christ? Is it to transform lives by saving souls? Or is it to transform nations and cultures by spreading values and norms? Many would say that either/or is a false choice when the answer is both. What those people ignore is that so often those two goals find themselves in conflict, and when they do it is much easier and more expedient to “focus on” transforming the nation and the culture than it is getting people saved. Tending to the nation and culture is far less difficult and produces quicker, more broad based results than crawling on your belly and face over the sharp rocks on craggy cliffsides and through the thick briars and brambles trying to find that one lost sheep, and then discipling that sheep so that he doesn’t run off again. It would imagine that it pays a lot better too, even if Focus on the Family has had to resort to layoffs lately. It is easier to focus on the family than to focus on Jesus Christ and Him crucified, so any offense that results from fighting false cultural battles will be far less.

So, when the time comes that the path to salvation is not through the false gospel of Mormonism or through a Roman Catholic Church that is now teaching religious pluralism, Dobson must stand down and count such people as his allies. Why? Because Mormons and Roman Catholics have good values, and are too useful allies in the culture wars over gay marriage and abortion to turn your backs on. So instead of telling Glen Beck that he needs to repent or spend eternity in the lake of fire, Focus on the Family promotes his allegedly Christian testimony

So in times like these, the truth be told: it is not the purpose of the gospel of Jesus Christ to transform the world, which includes cultures and nations. Instead, the purpose of the gospel is to save God’s elect from the world. Evidence of this is found in the very book of Revelation that amillennialists and dominionists love to reject with a “spiritual interpretation.” Even upon His return, Jesus Christ does not transform the world. Instead, He smites it and rules it with a rod of iron. See Revelation 19:15. Why does He do this? Because the world does not submit to His rule. The world is still trying to rebel, still trying to reject the Lordship of Jesus Christ and the Sovereignty of God. That is why when Satan is released, he has no problem finding allies for his final and futile effort as recorded in Revelation 20:7-9

Even after the final rebellion of Satan is crushed and this accuser is cast into the lake of fire, Jesus Christ does not set about transforming the nations and cultures. Instead, Jesus Christ judges them, they are destroyed with fire, and there is a new heaven and a new earth. Revelation 21:1 – “And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.” Now the Roman Catholics have the statement which goes to the effect “world without end amen amen.” But that is not what the Bible says. The Bible clearly states in Revelation and in the other eschatological passages that this world is coming to an end. So why bother trying to transform it? Why polish the brassware of a sinking ship? That would only divert the energies from getting as many people as you can off the ship and into lifeboats. The gospel is the lifeboat. It cannot be meant as both a lifeboat and some attempt to plug the leak in the boat. Why? Because those are two aims at cross purposes. If the gospel was meant to transform the world, there would be no need to save men from it. Also, make no mistake: it was God who put the hole in the boat to begin with. Indeed, it is God Himself that will judge the world for its wickedness. 

Also, if the role of the gospel is to transform the world, then the Bible itself would declare the gospel to be a failure. Why? Because the Bible makes it clear: the world is never transformed. It is never subdued. It remains wicked and rebellious to the very end. So if the gospel fails at the goal of transforming the world and the culture, of say, making the government respect the Ten Commandments and making the culture respect traditional family values, then why should the gospel succeed in saving any Christian from the eternity in the lake of fire? 

This is not some bold new theological innovation here. Instead, it can be found in a simple Frank Peretti novel “The Visitation.” In it, the protagonist, a burned out pastor, is confronted with his new, eager, inexperienced replacement, and the latter states “we are taking this town for Christ.” To which, the protagonist replied “how are you going to take any town for Christ when not even Christ took a town for Christ. Have you ever asked this town if it wants to be taken for Christ?” Taking towns for Christ was never Christ’s job. Thus, transforming the world and culture was never the job of the gospel or of the church. The very Bible itself declares that the world and culture will not be transformed, so if that was ever the goal of the gospel, then the Bible which declares the gospel would declare that gospel to be a failure, making the Word of God a failure, and Jesus Christ’s going to the cross to be in vain. 

The idea that it we should be trying to use the gospel to give life to things that are doomed to die instead of using the gospel so that people could be born again is a great deception. It transforms the unchangeable truth of God into a lie, and takes the all powerful all knowing God and uses His own revelation to declare Him to be weak, a failure, as if Revelation depicts God as destroying the world only after being frustrated by His many attempts to save it; that not even sacrificing His own Son on a cross and sending that Son to Personally rule the world was enough. And what could be more Satanic, more anti – Christ, than that? 

So we are left with the truth that the purpose of the gospel was to transform lives, to save souls, and to spare them the judgment that awaits the nations and their cultures. And we should reject anyone who comes promoting a different aim using a different gospel that represents a different Jesus.


30 Responses to “What Is The Gospel Of Jesus Christ Supposed To Transform?”

  1. […] at Jesus Christology comments on the Focus On The Family/Glenn Beck/Mormonism flap, layoffs at Focus. “Also, if the role of […]

  2. One question: How do you truly know personally that Jesus Christ has not transformed the lives of those who are members of the Latter-day Saint faith?

  3. IWanthetruth said

    A few questions:

    In Mormonism is God a glorified resurrected man?

    Is Jesus the brother of Lucifer?

    Where does the power from on high come from?

  4. IWanthetruth said

    19. Mormons believe God is a man (199:21).
    Actual LDS teaching: God is an exalted, resurrected, glorified man, far more superior than mortal man can conceive.

    25. Jesus and Lucifer were sexually begotten of God in the preexistent world (26:16).

    Actual LDS teaching: LDS doctrine does not include any knowledge of God’s method of procreation. All of us, including Jesus and Lucifer, were God’s premortal children.

    29. The Mormon God is not omnipotent, or omniscient(260:7).
    Actual LDS teaching: Latter-day Saint doctrine teaches that God is all-knowing and has all possible power, but even God cannot save an unrepentant sinner.

    Seems the soveriegnty of God has just been tossed out the window here

    The LDS teach Christ and Lucifer were brothers in the pre-existence (199:21).
    Actual LDS teaching: Yes, but only in the same sense that all beings are related as spirit children of God.

    Answers above taken from

    Answer to my last qusestion:

    I have in print a transcription of a movie from the LDS Vistitors Center which is a portion of the LDS Church History beginnings. The characters are a preacher, a man and Lucifer. The question finally posed in the movie is this: Where does the power (of the church) come from? And the answer is stated, “The power that comes from above, comes from below.”

    Are we talking that in actuality the power comes from below meaning Lucifer (Satan)?

    Now I ask you? Does this sound like the Jesus of the Bible? Truthfully? Is God really a resurrected Man? My Bible says He is Spirit.

    Jesus is not the brother of Lucifer. Lucifer is a fallen angel. Jesus is not an angel.

    In light of these truths from scripture are the Mormons believing in another Gospel, another Jesus? If it is another Jesus then it is not the Jesus of the Bible that truely changes lives.

  5. Why are you refusing to answer the question? How do you know perfectly and authoritatively that any member of the LDS Faith does not, nor has never experienced a true spiritual awakening and realization of who Jesus Christ is and realized and has a testimony of Jesus Christ? By side stepping the question and asking your own is not answering the question.

    Again, how do you personally know beyond a shadow of a doubt that Jesus Christ has not moved in the lives of those who believe in the Latter-day Saint Faith? If you honestly know personally how one could not have a testimony of Christ, then I would like to know how you come to this conclusion. If you do not know then how is it that you can stand and judge and state that someone’s testimony on Jesus Christ and his redemption is false and wrong? You have no authority. That is the heart of the question. because if you answer yes, then you are in a sense claiming to be God and know all things, including the heart of men. By your own logic that is false. You can be no more of a god.

    This is not about doctrine. Hence, the reason you will ask questions of a doctrinal nature rather than answer the question shows you either 1) don’t care to answer the question, 2) Rather discuss doctrinal differences that your only understanding of is not based upon historical context and scriptural context but reflective of modern misrepresentation of such things, 3) or, unable to answer the question because by answering the question, it will show forth that you truly can’t know the heart of men nor what moves them, or the faith of Jesus Christ that they possess. And, if it is the latter, then what authority do you have to stand in judgment on such things pertaining to the heart of man?

  6. Javanut said

    Bravo for a well written article. You have stated your point well and showed a logical fallacy in the thinking of many Christians today. Thank you.

  7. IWanthetruth said

    Mr Berman,

    I am not the moderator of this blog, so I don’t know if you are answering me or the moderator, but I know many Mormons who have walked away from the Mormon Church because they realized that the Jesus that they so passionately followed was not the same Jesus of the Bible. They say that they were changed by following this Jesus of Mormonism, but in the end they were not, and until they discovered who Jesus really is they were bound and not set free.

    I will answer the question that you posed to the moderator. I am not in a position to judge a mans “salvation” as only God has that ability, but He does give us the boundries within the scriptures to test whether a group of people are teaching a proper gospel, the right Jesus. In fact Paul admonishes us that we as believers have that right to judge teaching. And if it is not the same Jesus of the scriptures then they are following a false Christ and my understanding they have no salvation.

    In reality, people who follow after Hinduism, Buddism, and many other religions can say that the one they follow, even a Jesus, of a type, has changed their lives. But further research and study would show that the Jesus they may follow is not the Jesus of the bible, but another, and my bible tells me that they will come before the Lord God Almighty one day and say that they healed the sick and cast out demons and prophesied but He will say AWAY, I know you not.

    Sound doctrine is IMPORTANT as it is spoken of that it must be taught as the Apostles and Jesus taught, we are to watch out for false teachers, false prophets and unsound doctrine.

  8. wayofpeace said

    dear christian bloggers exposing doctrinal error.

    one of JESUS’s admonitions was to “beware of the YEAST of the PHARISEES.”

    there HE cautions us of that spirit that moved the pharisees into thinking that “morality” and “purity of doctrine” are what pleases GOD.

    i submit that that spirit is alive still tempting us into doing likewise.

    here i share this excerpt from a very wise book on this topic:

    Seeing Ourselves in the Pharisees by Tom Hovestol

    “Who were the Pharisees? The Pharisees were good people… They insisted on orthodox theology. Instead of falling headlong into cultural compromise and professional religion, they organized a grassroots movement that return Judaism to ‘traditional values’… they emphasized scriptural study and amplification. In response to creeping paganism, they increased their vigilance to be pure.

    “…The Pharisees were well-meaning people…[but] they rejected Jesus because He did not fit their theological scheme…So, rather than reexamine the Old Testament scriptures in light of the life and instruction of Jesus, the Pharisees stuck with their grids and missed the truths He taught…

    “‘Right doctrine’ sometimes becomes an entrenched theological system that blinds us to the truth. When ideas do not fit our grid, we generally dismiss or distort them. … Perhaps we are not so steeped into our theology that we would kill for it as the Pharisees did, but we seem just as intent on sticking to our system even in the face of truth…Right doctrine does not necessarily make good disciples (though obviously bad doctrine is disastrous for disciple-making)…Good disciples combine truth with grace, faith and obedience. The essential mark of a disciple of Christ’s is not so much right doctrine as rightly motivated love.

    “Though the Pharisees knew the letter of the Word; however, some did not understand or incarnate its spirit. Their foreheads were filled with Scripture (literally), yet they neglected to notice the calcifying process that was taking place in their hearts. They lost sight of the fact that the Word of God is a means, not an end in itself…The Pharisees teach us that Bible study can be dangerous profession. It can blind eyes…

    “…They saw themselves as guardians of tradition and builders of fences. Their goals in these areas was to make certain that God’s law was protected and God’s will communicated. So, it is ironic that Jesus commonly corrected the biblically astute Pharisees by pointing out their insufficient Bible knowledge. Frequently, He asked them, ‘Have you not read?…since in their attempt to vigorously apply the Law to life, the Pharisees missed God’s priorities, for God places compassion above ritual and ‘right doctrine’.”

  9. Job said


    First of all, the primary error of the Pharisees was rejecting Jesus Christ. Everything must be understood in that context. Christian tradition has willfully obscured or misinterpreted that fact because up until very recently one of the primary pasttimes of Christian tradition was Jew bashing in order to compensate for their own false doctrines and wayward living.

    Second, claiming that the Pharisees were doctrinally correct is ridiculous. Jesus Christ charged the Pharisees for 1) hypocrisy and 2) for relying on traditions and interpretations that altered the meaning and intent of the law. By the time that the Pharisees, scribes, doctors of the law etc. got through with all of their rules and regulations and traditions, the resulting religion bore no resemblance to what God actually gave Moses on Sinai. Which, incidentally, describes what also happened to the religion that Jesus Christ gave the church after the Catholics got through adding their own doctrines and traditions.

    Third, why not humble yourself and go actually read the New Testament for a change. You will see that the clear majority of epistles were written in order to combat false doctrines creeping into the church. 1st and 2nd Corinthians, Colossians, Galatians, 1 and 2 John … read them and claim that the apostles had this live and let live mentality. And then there is Revelation. In chapters 2 and 3, Jesus Christ denounces the false Jezebel and Nicolataine doctrines moving through the church, remember? Jesus Christ denounced the synagogues of Satan, remember?

    Sir, what you are doing is bearing false witness against scripture, and furthermore bearing false witness against what Jesus Christ Himself stated in scripture. That is still the case no matter how many fancy and erudite books you can come on here quoting. Those people make convincing sounding arguments, but the Bible tells us to reject the wisdom of the world in favor of the humiliation of the cross.

    If you truly want to know the way of peace, you need to humble yourself, fall on your face and repent, and then commit yourself to reading the Bible with prayer and understanding. Because if you are unable to spot the many polemics and diatribes against false teachings and the people who spread them that are all over the New Testament, then I honestly have no idea what you have been doing all this time up until now.

  10. wayofpeace said

    job, job, wow.

    you don’t know me and yet your judgment of me is so absolute!

    i assume you believe yourself infallible, you know, like the pope:
    right in all things doctrinal. a tall order for a protestant who i am sure condemns such arrogance.

    you may want to take your own advice and give humility a try.

    and so will i as per your admonition.

  11. IWanthetruth said


    Just so I have a better understanding of you and your backround and where you fellowship, what camp do you fall in?


    I am not questioning your salvation, but one of the things that I have found with blogging is that many people have many theological beliefs and while I may fall in a “calvicostal” area you may be in a post-modern experiential semi-pelagia belief or something else. What camp are you in?

  12. wayofpeace said

    i was saved during the JESUS FREAKS days in 1971.

    so, it’s hard to classified myself.

    lets just say that as i’ve grown and matured as a christian,
    i’ve passed thru many camps, settled there for a while, and then the Spirit leads and i’ve moved on.

    all these ventures have made me cautious as to absolute claims–by any one groups or denomination–that they have it ALL and that everyone else is wrong.

    we are all imperfect vessels, seeing thru the glass darkly.

    BTW i was not in any way rebuking those of you here: just offering a cautionary observation.

    no doubt that there’s lots of delusion and plain demonic staff going around, now mainstreamed via GOD TV (what a horrendous name, yes?).

    i just think that HERESY HUNTING can introduce its own kind of perversity/error. it can be seductive. an end instead of a means to TRUTH.

    we can be concerned without becoming obsessed. lets remember that FATHER reigns, HE is control.

    like they say, a small candle can light up the darkest cave.

    it’s about balance, the shalom of GOD is in the confidence/trust/FAITH that it is HE who leads the fight to win, we don’t need to be desperate.

    in my previous post, there’s this advice:

    “Good disciples combine truth with grace, faith and obedience. The essential mark of a disciple of Christ’s is not so much right doctrine as rightly motivated love.”

    by his mercy and through his grace, i am!
    your brother.

  13. IWanthetruth said

    Ah! JESUS FREAKS days

    Yes, yes, I was saved when I was 16, 1967-68. I have a friend who was saved during the Jesus Movement and admits that much of those teachings were based in “Manifested Son of God” theology.

    we are all imperfect vessels, seeing thru the glass darkly.

    I always find this scripture that you quoted interesting in that we are admonished, even by Jesus to be perfect. There must be that ability to walk in this aspect (perfection) with the help of the Holy Spirit. Obviously, with faith, love, truth. I would hope that most people who blog or moderate a site have an extrodinary concern and love for those who have not the truth because there is much false teaching going on in the church today.

    Mat 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

    Rom 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what [is] that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

    Phl 3:15 Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.

    Jam 1:4 But let patience have [her] perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing.

  14. wayofpeace said

    excerpts from THE VOICE:

    The English Term Perfect:
    Biblical and Philosophical Tensions by Dennis Bratcher

    The word “perfect” that we knock around so much in theological and biblical discussions is often misunderstood. We tend to apply an unqualified philosophical meaning to it and have it mean “without flaw” or “without error” or put it into other absolute categories….

    The problem in this thinking is that the Hebrew word (tam or tamim) does not carry the meaning of “without flaw” as does the term “perfect” in English.

    It simply means complete or mature or healthy (for example, Lev 22:21). That meaning of mature dominates most use of the equivalent Greek term in the New Testament (telos). Something, or someone, can be complete or mature yet not be “without flaw.” …

    John Wesley used the term “perfect” frequently and argued that it was a biblical term. But, the term is only “biblical” in English. That is what creates our problems since the word has a different range of meaning in English than the biblical words it translates.

    … In the past 250 years we have come to understand a lot more about the biblical languages, especially the thought world and culture that lay behind Hebrew. It is not that Wesley was wrong. “Perfect” may have been the best choice for 1740. But perhaps if he had the command of Hebrew and knowledge of Hebraic culture that we do today, or if he were communicating in our culture, he would have chosen a different way to express the idea.

    … From the biblical perspective, “perfect” describes something that functions as it was intended to function or of someone who acts appropriately (note that in Romans 12:2, the Greek term “perfect,” teleion, is used with “good” and “acceptable”). And of course for Wesley, perfect was always qualified with the category of love, so that any perfection of which he spoke was in the context of loving God and neighbor. That is why the true Wesleyan concept is perfect love, never perfection as a general category.

    Wesley himself fought against the concept of perfectionism, and the accusation leveled at him by many Calvinists that he promoted it. Wesley did not, but sadly, that strand entered the American Holiness tradition later and we have been struggling with a tendency toward perfectionism ever since.

    We do not, as Wesleyans, believe in a perfectionism that translates into “without error.” But we do believe in being perfected in love in which we are transformed as a result of God’s grace into mature, growing, and healthy Christians governed by love rather than self-interest.

  15. wayofpeace said


    by nicholas didonato

    on page 4 the author sets up what to me is a strong because humble & meek foundation from which to live the CHRISTian life:

    i am sustained by the grace of GOD

    GOD and GOD alone is TRUTH

    GOD alone is ALL and holds ALL, my abilities are limited

    also, ROMANS 14:1-4 offers godly advice on the attitude that should guide our initial view of differences among us believers:

    “As for the one who is weak in faith, welcome him, but not to quarrel over opinions.

    “One person believes he may eat anything, while the weak person eats only vegetables.

    “Let not the one who eats despise the one who abstains, and let not the one who abstains pass judgment on the one who eats, for God has welcomed him.

    “Who are you to pass judgment on the servant of another? It is before his own master that he stands or falls. And he will be upheld, for the Lord is able to make him stand.”

    YES and AMEN!

  16. It appears that no one here wants to answer the question, therefore, they have no authority to say who is going to heaven or who is going to hell because they can’t know the true heart of man – thereby they can’t determine whether or not Christ is moving in the hearts of men. Thus, their statement is false.

  17. nln said

    Only the God the Father, the Lord Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit who know the hearts of all men know for certain if there are true believers in the Mormon religion in spite of abberant doctrine. A person could truly have saving faith in the work of Jesus Christ on the cross for the forgiveness of their sins and still be followng aberrant doctrine.
    I thoroughly understand IWTT arguments above BUT that said, I don’t think anyone can definitely state that no Mormons trust Jesus Christ for salvation.
    There is much to comment on in the above article but I don’t have the time to do it thoroughly. However, Job does not know if Dr. Dobson has shared the Gospel Jesus Christ with Glenn Beck.

    The greater issue I have is with Job’s thinking and reasoning. As disciples of Jesus Christ we are here to fulfill His will for us in our lifetimes. We are to spread the Gospel and diciple others. BUT that is not ALL we are here to do! We are also gifted specifically to so the work our Father has ordained for us. He calls some to government, education, business and other areas of work and influence. We are to bring the truth of the whole counsel of the Word of God into our specific areas of infuence. I think Dr. Dobson had done this for many decades. He is a clinical psychologist who runs a ministry to strengthen the family. He is not a pastor.
    I think Job’s premise that the Gospel is only limited to transforming individuals is short sighted and reveals a sincere lack of understanding of the influence of Christianity upon civilization. The gospel is to transform lives and those trnsformed lives can transform the society around them. If you follow Job’s thinking to it’s logical conclusion, America would not exist.
    I am ending my comment with a quote from history:
    “Without the Gospel and the application of ALL OF GOD’S WORD TO ALL OF LIFE, civilizations turn despotic and crumble.” Charles B. Galloway 1898

  18. wayofpeace said

    knowledge of scripture becomes (in many cases)
    a deceitful substitute for a real relationship with CHRIST/GOD.

    a relationship with God is proven by the new nature,
    not through one’s knowledge of the bible.

    “For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit,

    “because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men.”

    –Romans 14:17,18

  19. Paul said

    Timothy Berman
    I doubt whether anyone commenting is judging you – especially to the degree that you seem to be judging them. It’s not about being omniscient, and knowing the hearts of all men – only God knows that. What is being emphasized is twofold. One: that continuing to follow a false gospel even if one has sincerely committed themselves to Christ as they may understand Him, can only have detrimental effects on spiritual growth. Thus, the reason the one person said Mormons who sincerely sought to follow Jesus, came to a point where they left LDS because they realised it was in error. Thus right knowledge and commitment to the truth go hand in hand in spiritual growth (I am not speaking Gnostically here). Secondly, the bible teaches that true disciples are like watchperson’s on the wall, and God says, if you fail in your duty to warn others of impending judgment (which will happen to all false systems – they together comprised the mystery Babylon), and if you don’t like Jeremiah, Isaiah, Ezekiel, Samuel, Jesus, Paul, Peter, John, James, etc, speak the truth in love, seeking to return lost sheep to the Father and Jesus the Good Shepherd, you will be held accountable – their blood is upon you. What love would anyone be showing if they didn’t want to try to get others off the broad way that leads to destruction and onto the narrow way that leads to eternal life? Note that He said “narrow way” – meaning it’s important to follow His narrow way in love, not seek to broaden it unauthorisedly.
    Two: as stated by others we are to seek to walk in the light and in His love, as He is in the light and as He loves – thus not to be strident and critical. Jesus wept. He still vociferously and forcefully railed against the Pharisees and the societal spirit of the age.He still drove out the moneychangers with a whip. He rebuked, He exposed evil in men’s hearts, and He pointed to Himself as their only hope of redemption, transformation, and salvation.

  20. wayofpeace said

    dear bloggers of this site,

    i thank you for allowing me to share my views.

    i end my visit with this from the same book i’m presently reading.

    BTW the writer believes in the devil and on the need for spiritual warfare:

    there are 3 circumstances in which it is likely that we will wrongly attribute something to the work of the devil:

    1- when we are faced with something we don’t understand;

    2- when we are faced with something we don’t like; or

    3- when we are faced with something that challenges our preconceived ideas.

    GOD’s blessings to you all in the coming year.

  21. And if you believe that Mormonism is a false gospel, preaching a dangerous doctrine, what would you do if you are presented with information that shows your current modern Christian doctrines to be of a Third and Fifth Century blend of Platonic, Neo-platonic and Gnostic teachings and beliefs and not based upon the bible at all? Will you then question the veracity of your own relationship, or would you sit and say “Well, I believe in Jesus and that is enough for me!”

    Because if you look at Valentinus, his ideas and philosophies regarding the nature of God is that of modern Christian thinking and Valentinus was a very prominent Gnostic Christian who was declared a heretic.

    What of Augustine who searched for an answer of Evil and was not baptized until around 33 years of Age, but before that was of a Classic Platonic, Neo-platonic and manichean influence. How much of that thought and thinking did he bring into the picture as he developed his ideas and beliefs?

    Are you not aware of the fact that because of the discovery at Ugarit in 1927 there is much more about the Old Testament than what the Conservative Christian scholars would want you to know about?

    And, who is the God of the Old Testament? YHWH. Who claimed before Abraham was he was? Jesus Christ. Therefore, if Christ is the God of the Old Testament, then how much of CHristian doctrines are based on philosophy and not on true biblical interpretation.

    Yes, we all have the right to judge, but if you want to judge the heart of men, then you are worse than preaching a false doctrine. To say that someone is preaching a false doctrine, then you better be able to back it up with honest truth and scripture.

    Modern Christianity is a mixture of a variety of beliefs that are empirically against scripture. Mormonism is closer to Biblical truth than the modern christians are spoonfed to believe.

  22. John Kaniecki said


    Hi hope you are well.

    You make excellent points. So many ‘Christians’ have transformed Christianity into something that it is not and has never been intended to be. I think a major reason for that is that it is viewed through European eyes. I think that twists and perverts things to a great deal.

    Yet how can you defend Mormonism? They have books which are added in addition to the Bible. For that reason alone their religion should be condemned as false. By your same logic the Moslem religion could be valid as well.

    We are not saved by our works, and certainly not by being good people. What saves us is a covenant relationship with Jesus. The Bible is the Word of God. There is no other divine teaching outside the sixty six books of the Bible.

    Paul says that if anyone preaches another gospel that we should have no part with them.

    Unfortunately many Christians pick and choose what they want to believe. Mathew 5:44 has a command to love our enemies. So many choose to ignore or distort this.

    Finally all those people you have mentioned do not affect me. I have read Augustine but I but him in the context as a fallable human commenting on the Word of God. When we view people as speaking on God’s authority we get in trouble. One such individual was Joseph Smith.

    Mormonism is a false religion and thus people who adhere to it are outside of the faith.



  23. John, Then all forms of Christianity are false and Christ is False because does not Deuteronomy state the same thing, one ought not to add to the laws of God or diminish them?

    This is a very weak argument. Why? Because, for one, the Sixty Six books in our current bible came out of the Council of Laodecia where it was debated as to which books were to be included in the Bible. Out of that there were 80 books total that made up the bible. It was not until the King James translation and other subsequent english versions where the 80 books were stripped down to 66 books.

    Who is to say that God has not moved in the lives and hearts of others of other nations? This presents a serious delimma because the Apostles were not looking to combine their letters into a book but were continually admonishing the Christians in doctrine and in duty. It was man who decided to declare what is to be the word of God and what is not to be the word of God. How false is it for man to declare that there are only 66 books that are to be the sole authority on Gods words?

    you honestly cant say that.

  24. John Kaniecki said


    Hi hope you are well. My understanding of the approval of the sixty six books was not a decision to choose certain books but rather to affirm the ones that were in use and regarded as inspired.

    I think you using a general argument to validate your association with Mormonism.

    Consider this, if you accept the books by Joseph Smith and other so called prophets than any books can be valid. They would have equal authority. Thus there would be no standard instead we would have multitudes of books all inspired.

    Secondly I would ask you to take a long, hard look at the life of your founder and others. I suggest you go out of your own religious territory and look at it objectively. In the same way I categorically dismiss the Puritans because of their treatment of the indiginous peoples I dismiss the Mormons for their treatment of the Utes.

    Finally your books conflict with the Bible. So then which has the authority the Bible or the books that were added.



  25. John, okay, let us use your argument against the life of Joseph Smith and logic conclusions that he could not be inspired by God because of his character.

    King David is attributed to have written much of the Psalms. Yet, he not only had multiple wives, but committed adultry with Bethsheba and then murdered her Husband Uriah. Yet, he is called a Man after God’s heart. How could he be a man after God’s heart if he was wicked and violated the commands of God.

    Abraham committed adultry and pushed out his firstborn son at the bequest of his wife Sarah. Yet, he is the greatest of all the Patriarchs. Not only this, but he lied about Sarah being his wife and said she was his sister and allowing her to be entered into a marriage agreement with Pharaoh, not once but twice. Yet, Abraham was counted to be righteous according to the Apostle Paul.

    Peter denied Christ three times, therefore because of this, peter could not be the greatest apostle.

    Paul severely persecuted the churches, therefore his epistles are not trustworth enough because he even admits on several occasions that he does not speak on the authority of God but the authority of men.

    Shall I continue to bring up the unrighteous deeds of some of the great men in the Bible and use your logic to prove that the Bible and the founders of the Biblical text are just as bad as Joseph Smith? You would, unfortunately, argue that there were reasons why they did what they did and that they were men who succumbed to the natural tendencies of the flesh and therefore should not have any reason to deny their authentic teachings.

    But, it appears you would use the same logical conclusion against Joseph Smith. Guess what. Cultures evolve, societies change. What was practiced 100 years ago is not practiced today.

    Would you dominate your wife and tell her she is to stay in the house, cook, clean and rear the children while you go to work and support the family and be a domineering patriarch? At one time, this was biblically acceptable.

    Would you say that slavery is biblical? Long before Joseph Smith, Christians used the bible to support slavery and stated that God’s condemnation was upon the Negro. Don’t believe me, check the history books.

    Christians put to death heretics, declared war in the name of God. Yet are shocked today at the muslim extremists who are declaring war against the Christians.

    So, should we look at the characteristics of all the Christian believers and denounce them? According to your own logic, that is exactly what you do with Joseph Smith.

    Do you believe that God is a respecter of persons?

  26. nln said

    Sunday, December 28, 2008

    Focus on the Family yanks Glenn Beck interview
    Christian ministry cites its failure to alert readers author is Mormon

    Posted: December 27, 2008
    4:37 pm Eastern

    By Drew Zahn


    Glenn Beck

    Focus on the Family, the evangelical organization founded by Dr. James Dobson, has removed from its website an interview with former CNN host Glenn Beck following complaints over the politically conservative TV personality’s Mormon faith.

    The original article about Beck’s best-selling new book, “The Christmas Sweater,” appeared on the ministry’s CitizenLink website on Dec. 19, but three days later an article published on ChristianNewsWire criticized Focus for promoting a Mormon “as a Christian.”

    “While Glenn’s social views are compatible with many Christian views, his beliefs in Mormonism are not,” writes Steve McConkey of Underground Apologetics on ChristianNewsWire. “The CitizenLink story does not mention Beck’s Mormon faith, however the story makes it look as if Beck is a Christian who believes in the essential doctrines of the faith.”

    The article has since been pulled from the CitizenLink website.

    Joel Campbell of Mormon Times reports he called Focus for an explanation and was read the following prepared statement by a receptionist:

    “You are correct to note that Mr. Beck is a member of the Mormon church, and that we did not make mention of this fact in our interview with him,” the receptionist said. “We do recognize the deep theological difference between evangelical theology and Mormon theology, and it would have been prudent for us at least to have pointed out these differences. Because of the confusion, we have removed the interview from CitizenLink.”

    (Story continues below)

    Beck’s “The Christmas Sweater” is the story of 12-year-old Eddie, who desperately wished for a bicycle for Christmas, but received only “a stupid, handmade, ugly sweater.” Eddie carries his bitterness with him as he grows into an adult, until the day he learns to see the real significance of gift his mother gave him when he was 12.

    “The Christmas sweater is the metaphor for me of the atonement for Christ,” Beck says in the now-nixed interview about the book that he confesses is partially autobiographical. “I realized that the real gift – the one we really need to appreciate – is the one that took so much to give. In my mother’s case, it’s the sweater. But in all our cases, it’s redemption and atonement.”

    Karla Dial, the freelance reporter who did the interview for Focus, even says in the prologue, “These days, Beck is hoping to spread a more eternal sort of gospel through his new book, The Christmas Sweater.”

    Those comments, among others, drew the criticism of several Christian apologists, who argue that Beck’s gospel and the evangelical gospel are not the same.

    The Christian Post reports that Pastor Dustin S. Seger of Shepherd’s Fellowship of Greensboro, N.C., writes in his blog Grace in the Triad, “They use Mr. Beck’s story as a way to show that hope can be found in God, which is true enough; the problem is that Mr. Beck’s god is not the Triune God of the Bible nor is his Jesus the Jesus of the Bible.”

    “Through the years, Focus on the Family has done great things to help the family,” writes McConkey of Underground Apologetics. “However, to promote a Mormon as a Christian is not helpful to the cause of Jesus Christ. For Christians to influence society, Christians should be promoting the central issues of the faith properly without opening the door to false religions.”

    Mormon theology differs from evangelical Christian theology on several major issues, including the understanding of the Trinity, the nature of Jesus Christ and Satan, the process of salvation and which holy books are considered authoritative, among other doctrines.

    The Mormon Times reports that outside of its prepared statement, Focus on the Family directed all other questions about the controversy to a ministry media spokesman who would not be available until Jan. 2, and calls to Beck’s offices yesterday went unanswered.

  27. John Kaniecki said

    Hello Timothy,

    Let me illustrate the major difference between Old Testament figures and Joseph Smith. The OT figures are presented accurately by the church. Is Joseph Smiths’ weaknesses talked about much in the Mormon church so as to learn from his failings, or is he glorified?

    Secondly we live in New Testament times. We have a different covenant. The standard has been raised higher. Yes Paul persecuted the church but then repented. Paul did not die in the same manner of Joseph Smith. Look how Stephen died and see the great contrast.

    I went to your website and it claims the book of mormon was inspired by God. How do you know then that no other books are out there inspired by God. I may claim to have a book inspired by God. There may well be thousands of books making that claim. So tell me why the book of mormon and none others.

    Also there are contradictions in your faith and the faith of the Bible. Your website also claims the Bible to be the Word of God. We know from scripture god cannot lie.

    What are some contradictions that I am aware of. Polygamy. Jesus being the brother of Lucifer. You also have a man who has authority over the whole church. This is Biblically incorrect. It is also Biblically incorrect to have a body governing over the congregations. In this matter you are just like the catholics.

    Finally there is the matter of the Utes. I am not trying to be hard on your religion just trying to show you the high standard of God. I dismiss the catholics for the inquisition, the puritans for the same sins that your group has, Martin Luther for persecuting the Anabaptists and so on. You see God expects us to follow Jesus. It is the way of the cross of suffering and sacrifice.

    Has the Mormon church ever came out and repented for what they did to the Utes?

    And on another matter why do you have young men whom you call elders. I know two in my area. I showed them the scriptures in 1 Timothy and Titus but still they insist on calling themselves elders. The teaching is clear an elder must be married, have children and not be a novice. One in his early twenties is a novice regardless of whatever organization he is in.

    Incidentally the two young men were very respectful and polite and we discussed a number of things as we walked around our town. Unfortunately they cling on to being an elder despite the obvious contradictions.



  28. IWanthetruth said

    I have a friend, a pastor, who one time had two very nice Mormon missionaries come to his door and wanted to share their faith with him. He invited them in and began to discuss with them about their beliefs.

    He said before they started to talk that he asked them if he could pray before they started talking. He told me that he said to the Lord that one of them was right and one of them was wrong in thier belief system. He prayed that if he was wrong please give him a sign and if they were wrong to give them a sign. They agreed with the prayer and then they began to talk.

    My friend said that about 1/2 hour into the discussion these two young men all of a sudden began to feel a heat and began to perspire. He himself was cool and never broke into a sweat. The temprature according to him was about the low 70’s and very comfortable.

    After about another 1/2 hour of talking these to young men left very quickly, almost in a run according to my friend, because they could not stand the heat any longer.

    I don’t know but it seems to me that God gave a sure sign that somebody was srong in their teachings and beliefs and it wasn’t my friend.

  29. John Kaniecki said


    Hi hope you are well.

    I’m still awaiting your respones.

    There was a man on this blog claiming to have revelation from God. You’d better go check it out. Of course I put as much weight into that as I put into the book of mormon. But for somebody like you who believes revelation is still coming from God you had better investigate. I think you will be busy investigating with all people claiming visions.



  30. Iwanthteruth said

    This is a really old post/thread but I would ask one thing… Joseph Smith is considered a prophet in thge LDS Church. Have any of his prophecies come to pass? and what is the biblical crteria for being a true prophet?

    If one prophecy failed is he a false prophet and if so then is the foundation false as well?

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