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Tim LaHaye And James Dobson Associates Bob DeMoss and Mark Whitlock: Race Baiting For McCain (And For Money) With Obama Waffles!

Posted by Job on September 17, 2008

Now PJ Miller was outraged by this. Personally, I find it funny!Barack Obama, John McCain, Sarah Palin, Values Voters, conservative, waffles, Aunt Jemima, campaign 2008, politics, presidential election

Check out THE VERY FIRST COMMENT on an LA Times weblog:

What is truly horrifying to me is that the Waffle creators, Bob DeMoss and Mark Whitlock, once worked at Focus on the Family; DeMoss:has co-authored a book with Tim LaHaye. See Whitlock’s own website:

http://whitlockportfolio.blogspot.com/2007/09/letter-of-reference-from-bob-demoss.html

People, if you wanted more evidence that the religious right is not led by Christians, here it is. In our current social location, there is no excuse for race baiting, especially when you consider that in our own very country, blacks and Hispanics are overrepresented in the very same evangelical, fundamentalist, and traditionalist churches that these “values voters” people are supposed to represent. If they were Christians, they would know that casting stumblingblocks that their black and Hispanic brothers and sisters (as well as the not a few Christians that converted to our religion from Islam, often at great personal cost!) is more important than some ridiculous election. That’s right, getting JOHN MCCAIN, the guy that all of these same people wanted to win LEAST less than a year ago (many actually preferred the cross dressing pro – gay pro – abortion Rudy Giuliani over McCain) into office is so important that they will do this? 

If you wanted more evidence that people like this lack the love of God in them, then here you go. This is not New England in the 1600s, when Christians like Cotton Mather were debating over the proper manner to treat their black slaves. These people know better. They just don’t care about Christians that aren’t white Republicans, which means that they themselves are just as anti – Christian as Jeremiah Wright.

53 Responses to “Tim LaHaye And James Dobson Associates Bob DeMoss and Mark Whitlock: Race Baiting For McCain (And For Money) With Obama Waffles!”

  1. barryweber said

    Search in the crevices of these so-called Christian organizations; look in the files, under the carpet, and in the medicine cabinets. You will not find Jesus anywhere. You will find reams of position papers, doctrinal missals, and bank statements.

    These are the people who have turned Jesus into a ventriloquist’s dummy, dressed in red, white, and blue bunting. He sits on their laps and moves his lips when the want those lips to move and never, ever utters a syllable from the Sermon on the Mount, the real Jesus’ central and defining statement. God forbid such uppitiness! No, their Jesus’ main ministry is not about love of the Father, or the forgiveness of others, or the nearness of the kingdom of heaven; it is about the horrors of gay marriage and the evils of Islam!

    This brand of Christianity is about superficial word-spitting, and that’s all. Just say the right words, and no equivalent action is necessary. And whatever it takes- even it’s wink,wink,nudge,nudge racism, well.. that’s ok. It pleases the hollow dummy sitting there waiting for more invective to spew.

  2. Job said

    Barryweber:

    Gay marriage is indeed a horror, and Islam is indeed evil. But their false gospel is an even greater horror and evil! Homosexuals who wish to get married or people who are practicing Islam know perfectly well that they are rejecting the Bible. But people who follow these movements, a lot of them truly and honestly do not know. I guess it is a difference between people who are not deceived on one hand, and people that are on the other.

  3. Job, Dennis Baxley’s statement is the voice of the doctrine of decisional regeneration and thinking he can make a Christian if they prescribe them certain things from birth. His error expresses a reliance on conversion by power of men, rather than realizing the Lord chooses of His sovereign will and the SBC can’t make a baby Christian no matter how hard they try. There are former Muslims who have a better understanding of the Word of God in a few years than Dennis Baxley has expressed his whole lifetime.

    I won’t dwell on the Lynn Westmoreland matter.

    But you’ve mentioned statements by Dick Armey. And frankly, your statement

    Dick Armey basically stated that it was OK for people not to vote for Obama because he was black

    Fails to accurately reflect the words that came out of the man’s mouth as quoted in the article. He’s saying there are racist voters out there and he does not support them, but you’re saying he said it’s OK. He does coddle them too much with the “bless their heart” comment that we know he’d never claim for Islamists, he should not be partial with sinners, but he’s never claiming it’s “OK”. He’s explaining what is going on. Is it WRONG for a man to say there are racist out there that will not vote for Obama because he’s Black? Come on Job, you’re jumping the gun. I can’t get that link you posted about the “waffles” to come up (I did get the details by looking around obamawaffles.com). That certainly plays off partiality big time. Dick Armey simply mentioned there’s partiality out there and he and his political organization does not support it. What is gained by you putting words in Dick Armey’s mouth?

    You’ve got your warning about racist claiming the Lord’s name in the waffles exposure, but you’re tossing in additional stuff that is unfounded.

    Ephesians 4:29 (New American Standard Bible)

    29 Let no unwholesome word proceed from your mouth, but only such a word as is good for edification according to the need of the moment, so that it will give grace to those who hear.

    In the post, you tossed in a little extra, when the matter of the waffles makes its own case alone.

    I found a contact phone number on the obamawaffles.com web site and left them a voice mail since nobody answered. Telling them that they need to stop this nonsense if they truly fear the Lord Jesus.

  4. Job said

    IC:

    “Job, Dennis Baxley’s statement is the voice of the doctrine of decisional regeneration …”

    Brother, I considered dealing with that, because it fit right into what I am reading in a Christian history book, and I had about three paragraphs in my head where I was going to take it. But I withheld it out of a desire not to offend my Arminian brothers and sisters.

    As far as Dick Armey, I knew that you would object when I was typing it, and for some reason I seem to be less afraid of offending you🙂 When I read Armey’s statements, I perceived him to be “sending a message to the base.” This is part of the long “we can vote for a black guy, just not THIS black guy” narrative that these fellows have been constructing ever since it was clear that Obama would be the nominee. Armey said “bless their hearts”, and “it is deplorable but it is real” … the purpose was “look, a lot of people feel this way, so don’t be ashamed or feel pressured, just use the guy’s funny name as an excuse to wait for a black Republican to vote for.”

    I gotta tell you, the Democrats are doing the reverse. They are not so subtly hinting around that Obama’s losing might lead to civil unrest or at the very least intense racial tensions and resentment. There was this article in the Washington Post to that effect the other day, I may do a piece on it if I can find it, and Donna Brazile and I think Roy Wilkins said the same during the Hillary – Obama ugliness.

    You were primarily going by the meaning of Armey’s words, I was interpreting the intent behind Armey’s words. I readily acknowledge that you are on much more solid ground theologically and factually. I actually am not predisposed to disfavor Armey, as I do not recall his being involved in as much nonsense as other GOPers. If I recall, he was one of the ones that tried to stand up to Newt Gingrich back in the day, and paid dearly for it. I just have a conviction that it is true, as all.

    Now what “obamawaffles” link would you be referring to?

  5. Oh Job, here we go again…

    I perceived him to be “sending a message to the base.”

    Making things out of statements that are never actually said. If Obama was White, Armey would still not endorse him, so if all things were the same except his race, Armey would still say he’s not fit for the job. And without the worry of being called “racist” if Obama was White Armey probably say some things in a more harsh way. Because they didn’t give John Kerry this KID GLOVE TREATMENT. Armey never endorses voting based on race and openly denounced it. He said what is going on, some people vote based on race.

    When Ed Rendell said it, he was pulling for Hillary and didn’t even denounce the practice as “deplorable”, but Armey said:

    “It’s deplorable, but it is real,” said Armey

    You said:

    I was interpreting the intent behind Armey’s words.

    Well how to you interpret the term “deplorable”?

    Now if you had addressed the decisional regeneration matter, we’d be talking scripture, but instead you’re tossing words in Amrey’s mouth and we’re talking about what you think he said rather than what he really said😉 .

  6. http://obamawaffles.com/

    They’ve got a working phone number on their “contact” page, where I left them a nice brotherly message, that they need to stop this if they really claim to follow the Lord Jesus.

  7. Job said

    IC:

    Fair enough. I removed the speculation paragraph.

  8. Elizabeth white said

    These peoples hearts are filled with hate. once again the state of Tennessee is shamed by stupid people like Mark Whitlock and Bob DeMoss.

  9. James said

    If they go against Palin’s family and church like they did then this is on the same level.
    All is fair in politics just ask the guy who released Palin’s personal email.

  10. James,

    All is fair in politics just ask the guy who released Palin’s personal email.

    Are you a Christian? If so, do you think being a Christian involves turning off the responsibilities that come with following Jesus based on whether it’s politics, personal or in a building on Sunday called “the church”? If you’re not a Christian, let’s talk about that instead.

  11. James said

    I am a Christian and firmly believe that politics is brutal. When the other side is vicious then you can’t be a softy. I see what’s happening to Gov. Palin and am enraged. She is a Christian but Christians on both side don’t acknowledge that. Joe Biden can be a Catholic but nobody cares because he is not living his faith. The scriptures do say to be doers of the word not just hearers and Biden is a hearer when it comes to human rights for the unborn. His church clearly teaches that the human rights should extend to the unborn.
    If you draw Obama as a clown or a funny picture then it is political satire. Look at the editorial comics of the past 8 years and you will see the president drawn in every demeaning way. Obama should expect the same treatment that President Bush gets because politics is rough and tumble. He and his followers need a thick skin and take what they dish out to President Bush.

  12. Job said

    James:

    Show me in the Bible where it says Christians should be brutal. I can show you verses that say that Christians should not be conformed to this world or to its ways, and that Christians are not to emulate the wickedness of sinners. “I see what’s happening to Gov. Palin and am enraged.” Precisely why the Bible says that the wrath of man does not work the righteousness of God. And wow, I have to tell you that if you are more bothered by attacks on the character and competence of a powerful relatively affluent governor and not the broken dead bodies of children, women, and impoverished civilians due to our bombs in Iraq (700,000 civilians dead and counting), then I would like to know which Bible version you are reading.

  13. James, in addition to wanting to see where you find support in scripture for your stance, that Christians should engage in “brutal” politics and dish just like others dish it, because my Bible says:
    Romans 12:17-21 (New American Standard Bible)

    17 Never pay back evil for evil to anyone Respect what is right in the sight of all men.

    18 If possible, so far as it depends on you, be at peace with all men.

    19 Never take your own revenge, beloved, but leave room for the wrath of God, for it is written, “VENGEANCE IS MINE, I WILL REPAY,” says the Lord.

    20 “BUT IF YOUR ENEMY IS HUNGRY, FEED HIM, AND IF HE IS THIRSTY, GIVE HIM A DRINK; FOR IN SO DOING YOU WILL HEAP BURNING COALS ON HIS HEAD.”

    21 Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

    So I really would like to see what you’re reading and using as support for your claims. I’m not seeing where what I’ve found in scripture mentions an exception if engaged in political affairs.

    But I also need to know something else. You have openly declared that Joe Biden does not follow the teachings Roman Catholicism, while he claims to be Roman Catholic. But you claims Sarah Palin is following the teachings of the Bible, while she claims to be a Christian. (Roman Catholicism is not the teachings of the Bible, but that’s another topic in its self.) James, ARE YOU MISSING THE PART WHERE SHE DUCKED A DIRECT QUESTION ABOUT SOMETHING GOD HAS EXPLICITLY DECLARED AN ABOMINATION? If she’s living the faith she claims to uphold, how can she duck a direct question about abominable behavior?

  14. James, here it is in case you missed it.

  15. James said

    Politics is rough and tumble. It is a war of opinion and ideas. It is spiritual warfare at times.Period. In some cases honesty is brutal. John 3:18 is harsh to many people. This Obama waffle thing is in my opinion over the limit because it invokes his ethnicity or disparages him as a Muslim. The promotion of abortion and same sex marraige ignites a righteous indignation that I believe is a correct response to blasphemy. I don’t advocate careless harm to anyone. I do believe we are in a war of ideas. We are in a culture war.
    I am in the military. I was a soldier-medic now I am in the Coast Guard. I believe the generals because I’ve followed the war very carefully. I think that we are winning and because the war is so unpopular we will leave soon. I was the protestant lay leader for years. I’m in a unit where there are no services on base so I attend a local church. I love our armed forces and wish I had another 20 years I could give it. In a war zone I felt safer near Iran than some parts of Detroit.🙂
    I am not a fan of war and death. If someone must die in battle I prefer it be the enemy. I know that is cold for a Christian but that’s my view.

  16. James said

    Joe Biden was rebuked by his elders for his stance on abortion. The Catholic church has sent open letters to Pelosi and Biden for misrepresenting the Catholic view on abortion. The Catholic church has a very strong stance on human rights for the unborn but are often unwilling to sanction their incorrigibles by denying communion or excommunication. There is no neutral ground or “we won’t push our views” wishywashyness the Catholic church is a staunch advocate for the unborn.
    I don’t think Palin is out of order with her spiritual elders. She is more like a real Christian that you would meet more than any politician I’ve seen. In my church it is often said that you must catch the fish before you can clean them. I feel that way about homosexuals. I believe it is sin that should be handled in a bible study or a private prayer meeting. If people convert it is on an individual basis. One soul at a time. Women’s groups hate her for her views on abortion just like Clarence Thomas is hated for his views on affirmative action. As a Christian we know that her Pro-Life views are biblically sound.

  17. Job, do you see how James is himself waffling with when to speak out against abomination, now that her highness Palin has?

    And James, here’s something you need to review in full: Roman Catholicism Versus The Bible. As Always, Bible Wins! (*Updated*)

  18. Job said

    IC:

    More evidence that the religious right provokes abomination, heresy, and outright apostasy among its followers just like the religious left. Worldliness is as worldliness does.

  19. wbmoore said

    I’m half Mexican and knew prejudice from both whites and Mexicans when growing up. I was shocked at the racism I saw in the Navy in the early 80s – it was almost all from blacks. When I moved to Memphis in the late 90s, I met a few white people who were prejudiced. In Miami, in the early 00’s, I found a few prejudiced against whites, but rarely did I see whites prejudiced against others – and this was living for 2 years in a middle class neighborhood, and 2 years next to the ghetto (for ministry purposed). I’ve worked with, ministered with, and worshipped with people from all over the world. I’ve travelled much of Latin America, some for work and some for ministry. Some of the least racist I have met were from Africa and Haiti. I’ve had people from Mexico, Peru, and New Jersey live with our family for extended periods of time (a year or more at a time). The most prejudiced (with interesting ideas of morality) was the person I’ve met was from NJ, who was half Puerto Rican and half Dominican and had grown up in Atlantic City NJ and had two kids with a black man. She was the most prejudiced person (against whites and “rich” people) I have ever met. She saw racism where none existed and hated whites (of course, I was didn’t count because I was half Mexican). By the time she left our home, she had accepted Christ and God had worked in her heart and she was able to look at people more individually, rather than be automatically blinded by color. When we come to Christ, we often have beliefs, feelings, thoughts that we must leave behind, and others we have to take on. Its a matter of spiritual growth, reading the word, prayer, discipleship/mentoring. It has been my experience that few white people are prejudiced (although there ARE a few I have met). However, also in my experience in evangelizing and discipling and teaching people, its been my experience that liars think all people lie, and racists think all people are racist – neither of these beliefs are true.

    Having said all this, I saw the Obama Waffles and did not think it racist. I thought it appropriate because he waffles.Christ called the hypocrites exactly that. This is what the Obama Waffles do. Obama unfortunately does not reflect Christ in his anti-life stance. He is the most liberal Senator in office. Biden is the third most liberal. When Christ spoke about murder, it included the idea of murder of the unborn. Yet, Obama voted against the Born Alive Infant Protection Act in Illinois – he would rather not bother the woman who wanted the now failed abortion and doctors than protect a child. Yet, he pretends that was not his position. He says one thing and then when it seems unpopular, he changes his position. He flip-flops as much as Kerry did, if not more.

  20. James said

    I didn’t waffle about sin. I said that it should be handled in private like a prayer meeting or bible study. The pastor could counsel or assign a mentor. I believe Jesus saves one soul at a time not by orientation groups, drunkards or thief guilds.
    She should have outright said that homosexuality is sin as a direct answer.
    I am not a Catholic but I respect their commitment to the unborn that seems more solid than many denominations. They are not swayed by the race of the candidate on their doctrines.

  21. James said

    From my viewpoint the religious right wants more morality and the ability to teach their children like abstinence and home schooling. Homosexuality should be kept private and abortion denies human rights to babies.

    The left churches want social justice between the races and help for the poor.

    The right seems more in favor of judgment in some cases whereas the leftist gods are graceful and merciful so everyone feels good when they sin. There is acceptance and tolerance for everyone except judgmental Christians. Women want to walk away from the abortion clinic with no guilt that they’ve ended someone’s life.Once they realize they’ve killed a child then they may need therapy. If they cannot concieve in later years due to complications when they want to they will regret this choice as well.
    These debates are good and healthy if walk away without anger or hate. To put the scriptures out there to many people equals hate.
    Palin is in the crosshairs by leftist Christians as well as secularists. Why do Christians behave this way against other Christians? This goes for Obama waffles or anti-religious bigotry from the left.
    If she can adopt the Joe Biden position and put the light under the lampstand then it would be politically expedient. Maybe she will break away from her church leadership for political reasons like Obama and Biden.

  22. James,

    She should have outright said that homosexuality is sin as a direct answer.

    OK James, YOU understand that. YOU know what she should have said and now you affirm she should have said it, if she’s a Christian. However James, we have absolutely no evidence that she sees homosexuality as sin. Don’t give me a list of her claimed policy stances, that does not mean she honestly affirms homosexuality as SIN. So Biden won’t stand against abortion, well Palin won’t stand against homosexuality, not where it really counts, in realizing it is sin. And if she can’t speak openly from the surest foundation (Christ), to affirm that sin is sin, than I suspect even in policy she’s not as dedicated as she claims to be.

    When Sarah Palin became governor of Alaska, what did she press for to outlaw abortions in her state in her first week in office? First month in office? When? Well how much does she stand against abortion if mass slaughters are taking place in her home state and she didn’t even show an attempt to address it as such the moment she assumed her post as governor of Alaska? How come South Dakota could seek to ban baby killing with their governor leading the charge and how come Mississippi has made it very difficult to run abortion mills in their state, but Palin never led a charge to outlaw all abortions in Alaska.

    James, the Republicans are playing you. And they do cause you to “waffle”, because look how long it’s taken for you to outright say Palin was wrong. I first asked you in that other thread and you never responded directly that she was wrong. (But you sure were able to call out Joe Biden fast.) You may not notice, but James your support for her is causing you to show partiality.

    And speaking of “bible churches” (since you mentioned it in one of your comments), nowhere in the Bible did a church or the Apostles ever assert that they were going to “cast all the demons out of town”. In the Bible, the Apostles went to towns full of sin and evil and demonic activity, they preached the gospel, but they did not claim they prayed for every demon to be removed and the town became some sort of paradise. But Sarah Palin runs with people who do make such unbiblical claims and assertions. But her “bible church” keeps having back the false teacher who claimed he prayed and and entire area was purged of demons. Palin even let the man lay hands on her. He claimed the place was no longer crime ridden and he was totally lying. Also the unbiblical claims of “slaying in the spirit”. And Palin’s spot went a step further in their unbiblical activity and claimed they can even have it happen by cell phone! Now Motorola phones, Sprint and AT&T cell towers are conduits for the Holy Spirit, to do things we don’t even seen recorded in the book of Acts, such as Christians falling backwards in a holy trance?

  23. Wbmoore – If you agree with the “Obama waffles” mess, what was the point of putting a Muslim-like headpiece on a picture of him on the box?

    And why won’t the makers of that waffle product, do the same regarding John McCain?
    John McCain Flip Flops on Gay Marriage

    John McCain on gay marriage

    John McCain on whether homosexuality is a ‘sin’

    McCain Flip Flops on Abortion

  24. Devon said

    Wbmoore, that is a fascinating account!! Let me just say as a Christian that is white, one thing that is unique to the White experience in North America (I am in Canada) is that from day one we are taught how evil we were and are…the guilt that is put on all white people for the sins of the past is appalling and idiotic to say the least..

    Do you know up to the late 80’s, I never really knew that anyone other then white folk could be racist?? That is what we are taught about ourselves and it is from the liberal left ad nauseum..

    When my eyes started to be open was soon after I became a Christian….then I learned that racists are just as predominant if not worse in other countries and tribes….

    And meeting people like Job, IC and others who have pointed out to me how much racism is in countries like Cuba and Brazil…it is mind blowing to me, a white person who has been taught all his educated life that ‘whitey’ is the the most racist person on earth…

    Its ironic isn’t it that Satan himself doesn’t discriminate…he hates everyone equally and he always trying to get us to divide along color, class, gender, cultural lines…

    Thanks

  25. James said

    I want to vote for a ticket that most likely will represent my views. I am a pro-Life Christian. Palin is just like any other Christian woman who gets into public office. She is full of flaws and has not spoken out against homosexuality.
    I still want the hope and change that would come through a McCain presidency. I hope he will put in Pro-Life judges. I would love to see a Pro-Life woman as vice president. I hope he will bring guys home from Iraq.
    I have a Christian Pro-Life bias without question. I would like to see Obama as the Secretary of State. He would be a good replacement for Rice.

  26. John Kaniecki said

    James,

    Hi hope you are well.

    I heard the speakers of both conventions and I was impressed. Then I realized that these people have been in power for a long time and have come up with nothing new.

    I’m with you brother about the pro life thing. Yet Bush, the Senate, and the Congress were all Republican for the first four years and they failed to do anything about illegalizing abortion.

    Then I hear ads by both Obama and McCain saying how we shouldn’t bail out Wall Street. Why because it is the popular thing to say. Both of these men are US senators. Why don’t they put their money where there mouth is and co sponsor a bill stopping the Wall Street bail out the oppose.

    These people are adept at lying and doing whatever they think it takes to keep power. Change in this country will only come when there is a movement by the people to cause change.

    Love,

    John

  27. James, you’re not going to find hope in the government of man, hope is only in Christ Jesus.

    You’ve been shown these guys are playing you like a fiddle, yet you claim they agree with you.

    Well you can keep hoping on them all you like.

    Regarding bringing troops home from Iraq. Come on James, you know once our troops go in, they never leave. So troops will be in Iraq so long as the empire known as America is at enough strength to keep troops everywhere they are. There’s better chance of all US troops leaving Korea than Iraq. Bill Clinton told troops in Bosnia when he sent them that it would be a short trip, last figures I’ve seen show we’ve still got thousands of troops there. Sure in time they’ll be some reduction in Iraq, but they’ll always be US troops there, so long as the empire has the means to keep them there. And hey, I love America man, I only use the term empire because it’s a fact. If America is not an empire than no nation ever was.

    Obama might be in a McCain cabinet and McCain has already said he’s looking to do it. Because McCain and Obama are more the same than you would like to admit. McCain loves (as in is fond of and in much agreement with) Joe Biden too.

  28. Devon said

    I think James realizes that whoever wins our elections that they are not a final hope…I think, like myself, he simply see’s the best alternative down here on this depraved planet and we go with that…

    We as Christians are under no illusions….pandora’s box has been open and nothing can cure this evil in this world save the second coming…and we know that even if we elect a Godly person into office, that will not save our nations….

    We simply take the best choice and go with that ……at least Palin is a Christian…I cannot say that about Obama, McCain or Biden…

    I do not share the idea that we do nothing…Obama is clearly the far more dangerous choice in almost every area whether the gay agenda or abortion or radical islam…

    Regardless…Revelation is being played out an no politician can stop that…

  29. How do you know Palin (or McCain) is a Christian? Because she (or he) was the “member of a church”? Or because she (or he) has affirmed openly that Jesus is the only hope and all other roads lead to eternal damnation? And if it’s the latter, please show me that evidence because I’ve really been waiting to see it.

    We thought Bush was a Christian too you know…

  30. Coram Deo said

    How do you know Palin (or McCain) is a Christian? Because she (or he) was the “member of a church”? Or because she (or he) has affirmed openly that Jesus is the only hope and all other roads lead to eternal damnation? And if it’s the latter, please show me that evidence because I’ve really been waiting to see it.

    Demons can claim both of these proofs.

  31. Devon said

    I would point out her Church, either her old one or current one, hold to essential Christian doctrine…they are Bible Believing Churches…..you can argue against some of the excess in the Pentacostal movement but they are brethren.

    Also what has been reported about her upbringing and past….the family converted from Catholism back when she was a little girl..

    We have her own words….we have a context of a Bible believing Church that she has attended for years unlike the other 3 candidates…

    Can I say that she is dogmatically regenerate? Of course not…I would have to know her as a friend before one could be sure of that….and even then one cannot always be sure.

    In a spiritual sense, I see the absolute hatred directed to this woman as more then mere politics but almost demonic…she is taking tremendous heat for her stand on Abortion and her church is facing ridicule because they try to help gays to escape their lifestyle…

    I was never sure about President Bush….in fact…..I’m not sure who was the last President that was truly regenerate? Carter or Reagan I suppose….not sure about that even….

  32. James said

    I don’t put my hope in McCain but God. I do hope McCain will win and Obama would get more experience as a senator. I would rather him be in a cabinet position where he won’t put in pro-choice judges.
    Palin has been attacked so much for her faith I don’t see why anyone now is saying she isn’t a Christian. When she prayed for our troops it wasn’t a generic prayer but one that most Christians give for our troops. Charles Gibson and others are still attacking her for praying. I think there is blatant Christian persecution here that we don’t want to admit here in the United States.

  33. wbmoore said

    Independent Conservative Says:
    “Wbmoore – If you agree with the “Obama waffles” mess, what was the point of putting a Muslim-like headpiece on a picture of him on the box?”

    Because of statements he has made and the fact he attended a muslim school in Indonesia and can quote the call to prayers make whether he is a Christian suspect. the whole box was political satire.

    “And why won’t the makers of that waffle product, do the same regarding John McCain?”
    Because they are not independent, they’re republican. There’s more than enough satire against conservatives. Its about time there’s a little about the liberals.

    Both presidential candidates characters are flawed. Both vice-pres candidates are flawed. Its a matter of pick your poison.

    I happen to think while McCain is way too centrist for my liking. He is more conservative than Obama. I prefer McCain of the choices that would have an chance of being elected (I see no reason to throw my vote away).

    Reading what I can find on Obama, he seems to have extreme left inclinations and I would rather not have this country destroyed that way.
    http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/30/us/politics/30obama.html?pagewanted=all
    http://www.socialpolicy.org/index.php?id=838
    http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=NDZiMjkwMDczZWI5ODdjOWYxZTIzZGIyNzEyMjE0ODI=&w=Mw== http://online.wsj.com/article/SB120943129695651437.html
    http://www.nytimes.com/2008/05/11/us/politics/11chicago.html?_r=1&pagewanted=all

  34. Job said

    Wbmoore:

    “he attended a muslim school in Indonesia and can quote the call to prayers make whether he is a Christian suspect”

    Oh please. As if people who grow up Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist, atheist, whatever can’t convert to Christianity. You don’t question Obama’s faith because of his background. You question his faith because he is a Democrat. By the way, I state that Obama is not a Christian because of his doctrinal beliefs. But then again, I do the same regarding a ton of members of the Republican religious right whose beliefs and actions are just as blasphemous, heretical or apostate. Do you do the same?

    Here is the test: had Barack Obama been raised an Orthodox Jew, attended a Jewish school, and talked about how he still remembered Jewish prayers and all of the Jewish rituals, would you doubt his Christianity? Of course you wouldn’t. Because the religious right has come up with this “Judeo – Christianity” nonsense and has basically conferred upon Orthodox and Conservative Judaism “honorary Christianity” status. Why? Because of politics and culture. This despite knowing full well what Jews say about Jesus Christ when Christians aren’t around.

    Religious right Christians weren’t passing around this nonsense about Joe Lieberman when he was Al Gore’s running mate. I didn’t see any illustrations of Lieberman kneeling to pray wearing the Jewish prayer girdles, or even any tough questions from the religious right on how he would handle a national crisis that fell on the Sabbath. Instead, it was the left that went after Lieberman on those issues, and the response from the religious right was to call it anti – Semitic. And yes, back then before his suppport for the Iraq war made him an honorary Republican, he was considered just as liberal as Obama. The guy was going around telling people that supporting Social Security was “obeying the Bible’s command to honor your father and mother.” Where was James Dobson and all of the other religious right people who have a fit whenever Obama quotes scripture on that one?

    The fact that people like you weren’t doing any of this stuff when it was Lieberman, a white Jew, in 2000 proves that this stuff with Obama is 100% racial, and you just use other stuff to justify it. And if you people don’t ask God for forgiveness and change your ways, you are going to have to answer to God for your bigotry and hypocrisy on judgment day, because God, who certainly knows that Judaism is every bit as much a false religion that denies Jesus Christ as is Islam, is no respecter of persons.

    You didn’t see Lieberman as part of some threat to destroy your country in 2000, and that is only because you think that one false religion is better than another, and you think that some people who look a certain way are bigger threats than others.

  35. James said

    Obama should never be referred to as a Muslim unless he says he is. I know that his brother in the hut says he is Muslim, he wore funny clothes years ago etc… He says now that he is a Christian so be it. Let’s go back to his voting record and the positions he supports. Those should be enough to make your decision.
    He supports a position on abortion that most Christians reject because he is now sophisticated and high society. He can get the support of Matt Damon who thinks creationists are idiots.
    He can nuance his position or say its above his pay grade because he has no firm foundation. He says he is a Christian now but has not attended a church that had a sound doctrinal base. When he signed is name adopting black theology then to me that is sufficient evidence that he isn’t rooted in sound doctrine. He will believe whatever Hollywood preaches.

  36. wbmoore said

    “You question his faith because he is a Democrat. ”

    I’m glad you know what I think. I was confused. I thought I thought I said the headscarf was a reference to the fact that what he has said and done makes his faith suspect. Since you know what I think better than I do, I have nothing further to add to this discussion.

    I will leave you with this: One of the most godly, Christian, men I know is deeply liberal democrat. I disagree with his ideas. It does not mean I question his faith, and I do not worry that he will destroy this country. On the other hand, I DO worry that people with long standing ties to criminals, people who hate America, communists, marxists, spcialists, spokes people for people who support terrorism, and fundraisers for terrorists.

  37. Wbmoore, you approve of a tactic that even John McCain himself won’t utilize, because of how underhanded it is. Trying to continue asserting Obama is a Muslim when he’s not. I even had to walk away from that line of attack myself, once it was clear the man used to be a Muslim but is no longer claiming Islam at all. He’s literally been in most everything except Islam since. Obama not a Christian and he’s not Muslim either.

    I guess you feel Abdul Rahman’s claim to not being Muslims is suspect too? He was claiming it way longer than Obama!

    And you realize they won’t do this to McCain, despite McCain being well deserving for his own brand of “waffles”. And you say “we’ll they are Republican”. Well they are also hypocrites and like you they also claim to be Christians.

    You claim to travel all over proclaiming the gospel, then you get home and fall into the same trap many others have fallen into. And you’re even approving of things the flip-flopper you endorse won’t do himself, because it’s so dirty at tactic.

    Presidential Candidate John Sidney McCain III Wishes Homosexual “Every Happiness” on Announcement of Her Gay “Marriage”.

  38. Devon, you’ve got not solid proof Palin is a Christian. You’ve never even heard her affirm the simplest proof of all, that she beleives in the Lord Jesus as her only hope for salvation.

    CD:

    Demons can claim both of these proofs.

    But we have not even witnessed Palin affirm both, yet she’s being paraded as someone who upholds Christianity, while she can’t even affirm homosexuality is a sin. She calls it “diversity”.

  39. wbmoore said

    The question was asked, “what was the point of putting a Muslim-like headpiece on a picture of him on the box?” I responded by saying it was because his faith is in question.

    The question was asked, “why won’t the makers of that waffle product, do the same regarding John McCain?” I responded with an explanation that the creators of the obama waffle mix do not do the same to McCain because they support McCain.

    I said it is about time that someone offered satire of the liberals. I think both candidates are bad choices. The media is obviously in favor of Obama. I think McCain is too liberal and I have no idea if he’s a Christian. However, I think McCain is the lesser of two evils.

    It would be hypocrisy if McCain, who has flip-flopped on some things, called Obama on his flip-flopping without recognizing his own. But this is not the case. Its not being hypocritical to call people you oppose on their waffling while not calling those you support on their waffling. You misuse the word. I believe you mean to say they are not balanced, or perhaps impartial, in their criticism. This is not the same as hypocrisy.

    I DO approve of calling someone on their flip-flops. McCain has had his share as well. However, he has a record of supporting what I think is most important, so I will vote for him.

  40. James, stop playing games. You know Palin was not attacked for simply “praying for the troops”, she was attacked for implying that God feels action in Iraq was righteous.

  41. Wbmoore, evil is evil, you defend hypocrites and that’s pretty sad.

    I guess you find open borders to be most important. You must find embryonic stem cell research important to keep legalized. Also preventing a constitutional amendment against homosexuals claiming they are “married”. All things McCain supports.

    McCain Flip Flops on Abortion

  42. Devon said

    This debate is interesting…..we have some of us, like me, that believe in voting for the best alternative and we have others like Job and IC that believe voting for the lessor of 2 evils is still evil…

    Interesting to be sure….and I can respect both views though I agree that voting for the best alternative is the wise move and in this case, McCain is easily the best alternative…not because McCain is so great…lets face it…he is probably to the left of center or a centrist at best….he only looks good because Obama is so dreadfully hard left…

    I think the problem is that we are succumbing to moral relativism…their is right and wrong in all areas whether they be social concerns, foreign affairs, economic matters…and on all these issues Obama is hard left and simply doesn’t have a clue…

    At least McCain has a fairly solid record on being against Abortion….that is something…..I cannot think of anything positive in Obama’s platform…well mayby his idea about fighting Pakistan….though it isn’t wise to mess with a nuclear power…

    IC, as for Palin, I will give her the benefit of the doubt…..I havn’t seen anything remotely from the other 3 candidates that would suggest they were born again regenerate Christians….the way she is being savaged for being a Christian in the Liberal press should indicate something to you….

  43. wbmoore said

    Let me spell it out for you. “hypocrite – a person who professes beliefs and opinions that he or she does not hold in order to conceal his or her real feelings or motives” (http://www.thefreedictionary.com/hypocrite).

    Again, the creators of the Obama Waffles are not hypocrites, they are not balanced satyrical cartoonists. These are two different things entirely.

    Compare the voting records and vote for the one who most closely agrees with your views:
    McCain http://www.votesmart.org/voting_category.php?can_id=53270
    Obama http://www.votesmart.org/voting_category.php?can_id=9490

  44. wbmoore said

    BTW, if you want to complain about Obama Waffles, here’s the website for it:
    http://obamawaffles.typepad.com/

  45. Devon,

    the way she is being savaged for being a Christian in the Liberal press should indicate something to you….

    They did Bush the same way and he’s not.

    McCain Flip Flops on Abortion

    Wbmoore, not only do I know where the web site is, I know exactly where the town is in which the creators of the web site live, lived in the neighboring town for a time myself, have family who live in their town and called the creators of the web site directly, to tell them they are acting in an ungodly manner while claiming to follow Christ.

    You came here defending that rubbish, rubbish not even McCain would be found dead near and then you tried to claim you were just explaining their actions. You can’t have it both ways. If one is Christian before being a “Republican”, you can’t go screaming about one man flip-flopping and ignore the candidate you endorse is doing the same, but they won’t do the same for McCain, because they’re hypocrites and you defend them. They call out flip flopping on one man, while saying nothing of their/your man saying from his own mouth he wants to keep Roe V Wade as is.

    S.2611 Obama and McCain were twins in promoting illegal entry.

    Obama didn’t start the Gang of 14, who abandoned the effort for real conservative judge promotion? John McCain did! Yet you think he’ll appoint a Conservative justice to the Supreme Court. He’s come up lame on lower level appointments and you think he’ll do better for the highest. That the best definition of FAILING UP I’ve ever seen! He fails, you push him up.

    Devon, my position against McCain is not simply some new found position. I’ve been warning against him for years, way before he decided to run for President again.

    You know all know the Bible says these nations will back the Antichrist, yet you seek benefit from people who have already proven to you they do nothing but seek to win elections.

  46. wbmoore said

    Independent Conservative, you and Job must go to the same loving church that teaches you to read minds. Thanks for telling me what I think. I’ve had enough of both of you telling me what I think It seems you simply want to argue instead of be constructive. good luck with that.

  47. Devon said

    IC, I know both you and Job have been very consistent in your opposition to both McCain and Obama as long as I have been here and on your website….and Lord knows I am no big fan of McCain as he is a RINO and even was rumoured to be considered John Kerry’s running mate in the 2004 election…

    McCain only looks good in comparison to the socialist Obama…I look forward to the day I can vote for someone that is truly conservative!??

    I don’t know if that is going to ever happen? For now, I say vote for the best alternative….Here in Canada, we have Stephen Harper of the Conservative Party who is a Christian that attends the Alliance church with his family…but sadly because of radical left wing secularism, he has to keep his beliefs pretty well under wraps…

    Sickening…..that’s how secular my country of Canada has become and all thanks to the Left……I’m afriad America is heading in the same direction…

  48. In America, we have more free speech rights than it appears than Canada because I hear that many religious folks in Canada are fined plus jailed for just peacefully presenting religious literature in some areas. We in America are last on the list since we still have many patriotic people here that doesn’t respect the globalist agenda.

  49. Devon said

    I agree with you Truthseeker though we are not yet fined for handing tracts and stuff but the left up here through hate crime laws has been able to prosecute some born again brethren for them preaching against homosexuality ….if you google Steve Boissen you will find his story here in the province of Alberta….Very dangerous times we live in.

  50. James said

    Gibson really didn’t care what she meant when she prayed or the whole prayer would’ve been in the interview. The prayer was edited to the words that seemed scary to anyone who doesn’t pray in public. I’ve had the chance to pray in public and sometimes on the fly your wording can get a little mixed up. People in the audience often know what you mean. Most public officials won’t even pray in public but have someone appointed to do it.
    I’m glad she prayed even though that is what Gibson wants to use to scare unbelievers.
    This was a prayer most chaplains would have prayed.

  51. James, she was not praying, she was addressing the audience. She also mentioned how she was happy a nut case prayed for her and she feels his prayer got her where she is. The man is a lying false prophet.
    Palin’s Churches, Thomas Muthee, Witchcraft and The Third Wave

    The man lied, after all he claimed to do, the place was riddled with crime as always.

    Really you talking about Gibson’s question does not change anyone’s thoughts on it, not even my own. I heard the whole tape and felt the same way before Gibson asked her anything. Her statements were consistent with her pastor’s false teaching.

  52. James said

    Palin’s Churches, Thomas Muthee, Witchcraft and The Third Wave
    I am for prayer and exhuberance but not lies. I attended an Assembly of God church years ago that never got like this. I even have a Morningstar Cd from years ago. I remember the Revival in Brownsville and such. I was an Usher/catcher who caught people slain in the spirit.
    I am no longer in a church like that. Although I would like to see the Kingdom of God through signs and wonders I do not want phoneyness. If God heals you then give a true testimony of His grace.
    I don’t want to limit anyone from being spiritual but maybe she has matured in her faith. Billy Graham had some issues but he was still one of the greatest evangelists of our time. I’m not saying she is a faith hero just that maybe she has grown since then.
    Many readers on these forums come from Pentecostal churches. If someone says something wacked out then we often come back the next week. If there is a pattern then we go somewhere we can be fed spiritually.

  53. James, there is solid evidence that Palin even has been running with the Third Wave types THIS YEAR.

    But let’s move beyond Palin, because we each have communicated our feelings regarding her well enough already.

    You mentioned Billy Graham. James, not only has he had issues in the past, he’s teaching heresy right now. He denies the most fundamental piece of the Christian faith, that Jesus is the ONLY means to salvation. Just because a man is well known, don’t assume he’s the Lord’s.

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