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Homosexuality: A Medical And Biblical View By Chip Ingram

Posted by Job on August 28, 2008

35 Responses to “Homosexuality: A Medical And Biblical View By Chip Ingram”

  1. […] Homosexuality: A Medical And Biblical View By Chip Ingram […]

    • Jacquie Johnson said

      I do not see any problem with this census taking. Homosexual “unions” should be accepted and acknowledged.
      God is love.

      • John said

        If my child is playing on the railroad tracks because she simply just loves it! Maybe it’s the wood, the metal…I don’t know. For whatever reason, she loves it. If she gets upset when I tell her no for several reasons; it’s dangerous, it’s illegal, and I love her and don’t wish her any harm because I love her, does that mean I shouldn’t correct her when she is wrong, regardless of how much she kicks and screams to have her own way? “There is a way that seems right unto man, but the end is death” Heck, if my neighbors child was playing on the tracks I’d say something. Warning does not equal hatred. God loves us enough to warn of dangers that lie ahead. A true loving parent will always protect their children, and correct them when they are wrong.

  2. Jacquie,

    Hi hope you are well.

    I agree God is Love. Yet God defines Himself by the Words he gave us which is the Bible. It is clear that the Bible condemns a homosexual relationship where men lie with men.

    Using the same argument that God is Love one could codone multiple partners (free love?), marriages where a man or woman has multiple spouses and so forth.

    If you want a relationship with Jesus you need to be faithful in every aspect. Of course we fail and sin. Yet when one accepts what is against clear teachings of the Bible then one rejects it and all it’s messages.

    Love,

    John Kaniecki

    • Rebecca said

      Hi Jacquie and John,

      You both make valid points. Biblically, might I point you toward Christ’s conversation in Mark 7:8 where He speaks with the Pharisees? They’re making a fuss over Him not observing the customary hand washing ritual; He replies that they may follow the customs and traditions of Moses but neglect the true laws of God (in this case, referencing the ten commandments). It has become customary for Christians to reject homosexuals; it is not Biblical. The commandment we are given specifically by Christ is to love.

      Paul mentions “homosexual offenders”. A modern translation might better render it “pederasts” or “paedophiles”. It indicates a sex act performed upon an unwilling partner–rape. This is a far cry from a consensual relationship between equals.

      A side note: marriage is NOT Christian. Cultures all over the world have their own customs and traditions of what a correct union between two or more people should look like. A marriage becomes Christian when there are Christians within it. Homosexual people have the same right as people everywhere to declare themselves married.

      All this aside, would you rather be faulted for loving and accepting or shunning a child of God? I don’t recall Jesus recoiling from the tax collectors and prostitutes. . .

      Rebecca

      • Rebecca,

        Hi hope you are well. Marriage may not be defined by the Bible in a general sense. However the Bible gives
        a very narrow definition of marriage. It is symbolic of Christ and the church. Thus it is between’
        a man and a woman and one which there is a sexual or intimate relationship restricted to the
        husband and wife. Any other definition is not Biblical.

        Love,

        John Kaniecki

        • Rebecca said

          John,

          I have a mild allergy to passive aggressive Churchian behaviour but am otherwise well; wishing you the same.

          The Bible does not offer a definition of marriage, whether specific or general. Moreover, it demonstrates many different forms of marriage (several of which are culturally taboo for Western society as it currently stands):
          Abraham and Sarah: half-siblings
          Tamar and Er, Onan, and Judah: marriage to two brothers, then the father of those brothers (while posing as a temple prostitute)
          King David et al. : marriage to many women, including widows

          Any of those situations are not currently legal/socially accepted. Yet, the Bible accepts them. . .does this mean that God intends for us to live as polygamists or in incestuous unions? Think of the other Levitical rules that are not followed by Christians:
          no shellfish
          no touching dead animals (ritual impurity)
          no Menstruating women allowed in church
          no clothing made of two different kinds of fibre

          Seriously, do you check to make sure that your t-shirt isn’t a cotton/poly blend so that you don’t offend God??

          The relationship between Christ and the Church is indeed sacred. Christ was male while on earth and the church has consistently been referred to in Scripture as feminine (along with the Holy Spirit). However, Christ is also in union with the Father God (gender neutral) and in union with us. Every possible gender union is encompassed in the person of the Trinity and their relationship with humanity and the Church.

          Don’t let your personal issues about homosexuality masquerade as “God’s problem with homosexuality”. There is far too much sorrow and loneliness in this world for anyone to be turned away from the church by sneering so-called Christians.

          Rebecca

          • Devon said

            Ah yes….here we go….watering down the Biblical Truth to mesh with the evil times we are in….let me guess…you don’t believe in Hell either right Rebecca??? I love how you bring OT redundant laws into the equation to try and justify the evil of homosexuality……Posterity is going to be very very ugly to your kind…..

            • Rebecca said

              Devon,

              Why are you unable to refute me with Biblical truth (or even “Biblical Truth”)?

              I most certainly do believe in Hell. It is discussed, however briefly, in the Bible in both the Old and New Testaments. Current homosexual practices are not.

              Rebecca

  3. Rebecca,

    Hi hope you are well. Actually God intended man or mankind to live a certain way. That way would be in harmony with the Creator without sin. If you look at the qualifications of an elder in Titus and Timothy you will see it is between one man and one woman. It is true there has been polygamy. But never in the Word of God did God approve of a homosexual union.

    As far as my personal thoughts. I think the issue of homosexuality has been blown out of proportion. People will rant and rave about homsosexuals but perhaps a sin God hates more like divorce does not receive the condemnation it should.

    Love,

    John Kaniecki

    • Rebecca said

      John,

      I’m glad to see we have some views in common; I was beginning to worry. Remember the issue that Christianity had with alcohol around the 1920’s? Prohibition? I hope that this crazed all or nothing era will soon go the way of “Lips that Touch Liquor Shall Never Touch Mine!”. Divorce was the topic of choice in the 80’s and 90’s–something I was well aware of as the child of a divorce. Even worse, I was the child of a divorce between a pastor and his wife. My mother’s grounds for the divorce? He not only abused her but his own two children, threatening to kill them if they told anyone or left. As a child I well remember him storming around the house, lunging at my little sister who was only a toddler at the time, kicking the dog, etc. I agree with Moses and Christ on divorce: it is an evil, but sometimes necessary. It should be saved for dire cases where someone’s safety is at risk, not merely because two people cannot agree on what car to buy or whether the vacation should be in Vegas or NYC.

      God does intent for mankind to live a certain way, hence the Bible to guide us. We strive for no sin in our lives. However, no where in the Bible does it classify a homosexual relationship or behavior as a sin.

      In Titus and Timothy we see the young Church setting up. I agree that rather than a single young man (typically in Greece, the most likely figure to engage in homosexual activity), I would pick a stable family man to help run things at the church. We have to also remember that the young church had Jewish and Greek converts–two very different cultures with radically different views on homosexuality. As you remember from the OT, the Jews had been warned off of homosexual unions. Greek men, on the other hand, underwent a ritualized passage of manhood where they would be mentored by an older man who they would engage in intimacies with. It stands to reason that the converts would be asked to find common ground with each other and go out of their way to avoid offending each other. In First Corinthians, you recall, some of the converts were aghast at the thought of eating “meat sacrificed to idols” while others had no problem with it. Paul asks those who were untroubled to remember their weaker brethren and to not eat this meat (in front of them). Eating the meat was not the issue; tormenting their fellow believers was.

      I have heard some fairly convincing arguments for David and Jonathan’s relationship as the Bible’s homosexual couple. I’m not entirely convinced; my Hebrew is terrible. Paul’s relationship to the young men who traveled with him is more ambiguous–the expectation of that sort of relationship is inherent in the Greek language and one can’t really say whether whether Paul and his travel companions were lovers or not.

      To me, that’s irrelevant. I doubt that we could find a homosexual union in the Bible that resembled a modern one because (along with computers, penicillin, cell phones, cappuccinos, etc.) there weren’t any. The ancient world just didn’t function like that. However, like those aforementioned items, they are perfectly legitimate parts of modern life.

      Rebecca

      • Rebecca,

        Hi hope you are well. Still looking at what the Bible teaches about homosexuality please explain Romans 1:26-28. Regarding the law please understand that it is summed up in Love the neighbor as thyself. The basics of the law still are in effect. In fact things were made stricter. Adultery was wrong but now Jesus said “If we look at a woman with lust then we have committed adultery.” Regarding Homosexuality again it is forbidden in the covenant of grace under the category of sexual immorality and lasciviousness.

        If you want to make the argument that homosexuality is not a sin because it is not forbidden in the new testament then I can make the same argument for people having sex with animals. Both of those crimes in the law were punishable by death. Still please address the very specific condemnation in Romans 1:26-28.

        Love,

        John Kaniecki

        • Rebecca said

          John,

          Good Bible reference! Romans 1:26-32 is at first glance a very strong point for your side. May I ask what Bible translation you are using? I have a parallel edition from Zondervan that sets 4 different translations (KJV, NIV, NLT, NASB) next to each other for comparison and I find it particularly useful in cases like this where the language gets tricky.

          First of all, look at the verse in context. From 1:18 onward, we see people who go from their natural impulse to a dark and confused one. Instead of worshiping God, they worshiped idols. Past the sexual reference we see them committing other contrary behaviour like gossip and disobedience to their parents. Contrariness is the point that Paul emphasizes.

          When you look at verse 26 (NIV), it says that “the men also abandoned natural relations with women”, meaning that before this, their natural impulse was to be attracted to women. It is indeed contrary behavior to suddenly switch one’s natural sexual preferences, whether hetero or homosexual. I don’t believe this applies to homosexuals who “come out of the closet”; if an entire society was prejudiced against me, I’d be pretty reluctant to disclose my preferences too!

          This theme is reiterated with women, saying that they exchanged their natural tendency for the opposite. “Pervert” refers to a twisting of something, and in both cases, these natural impulses were perverted. I expect that any homosexuals in this Bible reference would have suddenly found themselves longing for the opposite sex, to the detriment of their current relationships!

          John, homosexuality and lasciviousness do not necessarily go hand in hand. Just as heterosexuals can be sluttish and brazen, homosexuals can be modest and faithful to their loved ones. Humans are humans.

          You cite loving your neighbor as yourself. Are you under the impression that in a homosexual relationship one of the partners is a tormented captive? I don’t want to unman you by being graphic, but I can assure you that anal sex can be quite comfortable for everyone concerned. Conversely, “regular” vaginal sex can be very painful, regardless of whether it is “natural” for those involved or not. Loving thy neighbor is about treating the other person as they want to be treated, allowing them autonomy. In a consensual gay couple, both are there because they want to be.

          To follow this point, bestiality is not specifically condemned by name in the Bible (as far as I know—that’s one I’ve thankfully never had to research) but based on “Loving thy neighbor as thyself” it is wrong because it is not a relationship of equals. The animal does not have free will to choose whether to have the relationship or not; furthermore, depending on the type of animal, the interaction can be dangerous for all concerned.

          Please feel free to collaborate on this; bring in your pastor if you like. I only ask that you can specific Bible verses to examine–not any church dogma or propaganda that has been developed by man and not by God.

          Rebecca

          • Rebecca,

            Hi hope you are well. I use the King James but have have the parralell Bible as well. I think you read into things I bring up incorrectly making inferences that are not correct. I believe that marriage or even a monogamous relationship between two people is one of the most difficult things to handle correctly.

            Love,

            John Kaniecki

            • Rebecca said

              Hi John,
              I’m sorry you feel that your views are being misrepresented. Please cite specific examples and we’ll clarify.

              Rebecca
              p.s. I agree; marriage is tricky! I’m about to be married for the first time and I’ve been reading intently for all the advice that I can get!

    • Rebecca,

      Hi hope you are well.

      Exodus 20:12-16 Leviticus 20:12 And if a man lie with his daughter in law, both of them shall surely be put to death: they have wrought confusion; their blood shall be upon them.
      Leviticus 20:13 If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.
      Leviticus 20:14 And if a man take a wife and her mother, it is wickedness: they shall be burnt with fire, both he and they; that there be no wickedness among you.
      Leviticus 20:15 And if a man lie with a beast, he shall surely be put to death: and ye shall slay the beast.
      Leviticus 20:16 And if a woman approach unto any beast, and lie down thereto, thou shalt kill the woman, and the beast: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

      These scriptures determine sexuality pleasing to God! You are arguing that homosexuality is fine. However I do not think you would argue in favor of any of the other sexual practice condemned in these verses. God dictates to us not us to God.

      Love,

      John Kaniecki

      • Rebecca said

        Hi John,

        I’m sorry, but we’ve already dealt with these verses. These prohibitions are part of the Pentateuch–the Law given to the Jewish people so that they might be pleasing to God. No matter how hard they tried to follow these rules, they were never able to achieve perfect oneness with God (thus the need for sacrifices and keeping God at arm’s length). The Law was fulfilled in the person of Jesus Christ, who taught us that it is not what goes into our mouths that makes us unclean, but what comes out of us–like the hate-laced words that Chip Ingram has addressed to homosexuals.

        The list of scriptures you’ve assembled describe the boundaries of sexual expression open to the Jewish people in their history before the coming of Christ. They are no longer relevant to us as Gentile Christians–or even if we were Jewish! All has been made new.

        I’m not saying you have to personally feel comfortable with homosexuality; that is your own business and let God convict you as He may. But you cannot misrepresent Him by claiming that homosexuals sin through their mere existence or that they are all hell-bound.

        Rebecca

        • Rebecca said

          Though I’m giving Chip a pretty hard time compared to some of insanely malicious organizations that exist: Ever heard of God hates (rhymes with “bags” starts with an “f”)? I’m not sure which approach I get more angry with–the blatantly crazy bigotry of Westporo or the soft-sell “God loves you but you can’t ever have sex” approach. Very frustrating.

      • Hi John.

        Well said. “God dictates to us not us to God.’

        • Rebecca said

          Patrick,

          It IS a nice piece of rhetoric, if only it were being applied to actual Biblical theology. Remember, as a minister that people may blindly follow your lead, to the point of neglecting to read the Bible and simply going on whatever you say. Do you remember a certain teaching about a millstone?

          Rebecca

  4. Rebecca,

    Hi hope you are well. Jesus came not to abolish the law but to fufill it. You have not dealt adequately with these verses you have merely brushed them aside!

    What Biblical evidence can you give that God wouuld be pleased with a homosexual relationship?

    Love,

    John Kaniecki

    • Rebecca said

      John,

      What was the purpose of the Law? And yes, that is a rhetorical question.

      The Law was to bring us as close to God as possible. When Christ came, He removed the need for sacrifices by making the ultimate sacrifice. Our salvation is found in Christ, not in a code of behaviour. Furthermore, the code of behaviour that is presented in the OT is for the Jewish people pre-Incarnation—are you under the impression that Christ has not yet come to die for our sins?

      Christ gives us two rules: Love the Lord your God with all your heart, mind, soul, and strength. Love your neighbor as yourself. Now explain to me which one of those gives you the right to treat homosexuals as anything other than blessed children of God.

      Rebecca

      • nobodyimportant said

        Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
        Matt. 5:17

        “For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.”

        Matt 5:18

    • Rebecca,

      Hi hope you are well.

      Galatians 3:24 “Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.” The law also was only for Jews. However the law has not been abolished but fulfilled. Mathew 5:17 and 5:18.

      Now you would like us to believe that something God called and abomination is now permissible. Yes the law is not in effect but we are not to forget it! Look at how the Old Testament ends. Malachi 4:4 “Remember ye the law of Moses my servant, which I commanded unto him in Horeb for all Israel, with the statutes and judgments.”

      We are not under the Law but still the principles of the Law apply. Adultery, stealing, murder and all those things God condemned in the Law are still wrong. The same applies to homosexuality. Reread the scripture I presented from Leviticus 20. It says it is an abomination for a man to lie with a man as he lies with a woman. Why would I want to do something God calls an abomination?

      So if the Law was to bring us closer to Christ why do you want to annul what it says? The same chapter calls sex with animals a sin as well as incest. If we used your standard then those things too would be okay. The new testament specifically condemns a form of incest in 1 Corinthians; but nothing about bestiality. The NT is silent on it. Homosexuality is condemned in Romans. It is a very plain and obvious statement. If you have doubts about that read it to an unbiased eight year old child and have them tell you what it means.

      Love,

      John Kaniecki

      • Rebecca said

        John,

        Your fixation on bestiality is rather disturbing, so say the least. Bestiality is wrong because it cannot be a relationship of equals, not because the OT says so.

        I have explained in minute detail why your argument is invalid (go back and actually read through my responses to your posts). Rather than responding to the new information, you have simply raised your voice—and sadly not the tone of your rhetoric. Get a new argument, one that is Biblically sound.

        As for that eight year old child, perhaps you’ll enjoy the wisdom from this one. God have mercy on you.

  5. Rebecca,

    Hi hope you are well. I think what has been presented here speaks clearly of the view points we hold. Seems to me you reject what the Word of God says and wish to attack me personally. Regardless I will turn the other cheek, thank you for presenting your view point and leave it in the Lord’s hands.

    I have had people tell me they can Love their enemies and kill them. I have had people tell me elders or bishops did not need to be married. Now I can add to the list somebody who would practice what is clearly stated as an abomination to the God.

    Love,

    john Kaniecki

    • Rebecca said

      John,

      If I hated you, and not merely what you represent, I would have gone after you in a vicious and personally humiliating attack. You forget that we are both Christians, regardless of what opinion we have of the others’ righteousness. As a Christian, I don’t want other Christians representing a culture of bigotry and hatred–it’s bad enough having to explain to people why “Christians” want to kill Muslims, Jews, divorcees, wiccan followers without explaining homophobia. I care enough to get on a blog where I SHOULD be getting my behind handed to me—if the theology behind homophobia was not completely groundless. I’m an educated, well-read person but if the “Law” and Christ was on your side, your side should be winning.

      Christ taught us love and gave it to peoples of all nations. God’s people are the ones that love Him and love each other, gay, straight or somewhere in the middle. For all the “love” you keep passive-aggressively sending in my position, you don’t know the first thing about love.

      My gay friends have been following this blog. They’ve enjoyed the debate and are glad to learn the real truth about the Bible and what God says about them. Despite all the things you’ve said, I think they forgive you.

      Rebecca

    • Hi John. I have been watching this for awhile now and the Bible correctly tells us It is an abomination for a man to desire a man, and a woman another woman.

      Ezk. 3:18-19.

      “When I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die; and thou givest him not warning, nor speakest to warn the wicked from his wicked way, to save his life; the same wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at thine hand.

      Yet if thou warn the wicked, and he turn not from his wickedness, nor from his wicked way, he shall die in his iniquity; but thou hast delivered thy soul.

      It is never popular to tell the truth. But I’d rather obey God than man because I don’t want their blood on my hands. We should love them enough to warn them, even if they call it hate or homophobia. We know it is not hate, because hate would be silent and say everything is fine, go on doing whatever you feel. Love warns without hate, it is a desire to not see anyone bypass the cross for the horrors of hell.

  6. Devon said

    Rebecca, the question really is…are you of the Christian Faith or a faith that you have created because you do not seem to have even a basic understanding of simple truths….homosexuality is a sin…it is evil…just like adultery or stealing….it is black and white…their is no obscurity with the Bible on this issue…the problem is you and your problem is you disagree with the Living and Holy God….you sway with the times….it 20 years, when pedaphilia or Animal sex is highly regarded, you will make an excuse with that….

    I say with deepest earnest, you need to make yourself right with the Living Savior….because you are far from Him!

  7. Adam said

    I wish christian influence over laws and customs would die out. Not everyone in the world is a christian, so why should we non-christians have to suffer under your obscene tyranny. I think Rebecca is probably the only true christian here-she follows the commandment to love, not matter what, than any other christian I have seen on here yet. I really hope you evangelical aberrations would realize that the world is not yours to control, and neither are peoples’ lives.

  8. Devon said

    Adam, why should we live under the godless influence of you radical hedonistic secularists…..see how we can both play that game! Rebecca denies essentials of the Christian Faith….she is no more a Christian then yourself…which is tragic….hopefully Rebecca and yourself are still young and are teachable and one day you will find the truth…..that is my hope and pray for all of lost humanity!

  9. Mary Toso said

    I believe Jesus Christ didn’t mention homosexuality specifically because it is something shameful for someone to even say what they are doing in secret. Jesus Christ, the Holy God incarnate wouldn’t bring up the concept of such temptation so as not to be party to it. However, it is clear in many scriptures that God defined the union of marriage for a man and woman and even that He has made it more clear in the New Testament. It is shameful to even mention what the disobedient do in secret.

  10. Mary Toso said

    It is an abomination to twist righteous biblical bonds of godly care into wicked relationships. Jesus is coming soon. It is absolutely clear that there was no homosexual implications of the bond between Namomi and Ruth or David and Jonathan.

  11. Mary Toso said

    Naomi mother care for Ruth.

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