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Illegal Immigration: Romans 13 Says Churches Have No Right To Break The Law

Posted by Job on July 12, 2008

Romans 13:1-7 reads “Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God. Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation. For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same: For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil. Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake. For for this cause pay ye tribute also: for they are God’s ministers, attending continually upon this very thing. Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour.” Adalberto United Methodist Church is clearly apostate.,2933,381281,00.html


54 Responses to “Illegal Immigration: Romans 13 Says Churches Have No Right To Break The Law”

  1. fritz klein said

    Before we start judging christians, we need to judge rulers. Those who are set by God to rule are to be obeyed, for as the Bible says, ‘For he is the minister of God to thee for good’. Now, what about a ruler or government that is wrong? Are we expected to obey facists, communists? I think the G-d who also said, come let us reason together,’ wants us to use our intelligent, to read Scripture intelligently and obey it. Where a ruler is not the minister of good I see no command in Scripture to obey. The verses you quote are conditional on the ruler being good, in which case he is G-d’s minister and to obeyed. If he isnt God, then he isn’t G-d’s minister and there is no compulsion to obey. Ofcourse, if we’re selective in applying Scripture or if you elevate a particular government or culture or the status quo above Scripture then you’ll ignore what I’ve said and be ‘pleasers of men’ and not ‘pleasers of God’. Maybe, if we read the Bible with an open heart rather than a rule book to beat people over the head, we would be better followers of the carpenter from Nazareth, who himself was an illegal alien, was conceived out of wedlock and fratentised with wine-bibbers. How shocking for some, especially the pharisees and those that thought they new Scripture (but missed the mark)….but it pleased God!!!!

  2. Job said

    Fritz Klein:

    “who himself was an illegal alien”

    Wrong. Neither Jesus Christ nor His parents ever set foot out of the Roman Empire. His parents were from Judea. They went to Bethlehem for tax purposes. They left the state of Palestine to go to Egypt to get away from Herod. When they returned to Palestine, they went to Nazareth. That was the equivalent of your parents being from the American state of Colorado, going to their grandparents’ birthplace in Nevada to have a child, going to Texas after the child was born, and then later moving from Texas to Nebraska. Either you are a liar or misinformed. In either case, you need to read the Bible.

    “The verses you quote are conditional on the ruler being good”

    In what context could the fascist Roman Empire have been considered good? The writer of that verse was later murdered by that same Roman Empire. Again, you are either a liar or misinformed.

    “was conceived out of wedlock”

    Being conceived or born out of wedlock is not a sin. And since Jesus Christ did not have a human father, He was not illegitimate, and neither Mary or Joseph sinned in having Him. Since the birth of Jesus Christ broke no civil law or religious statute, your raising it in this context is superfluous. Once again, you are either a liar or are misinformed and need to go about reading the Bible.

    “and fratentised with wine-bibbers”

    Nowhere in the Bible does it say hanging out with wine-bibbers is a sin. Since Jesus Christ broke no civil law or religious statute, your raising it in this context is superfluous. Once again, you are either a liar or are misinformed and need to go about reading the Bible.

    Fritz Klein, what you are advocating is that it is perfectly fine to break laws that you do not agree with and defy leaders that you do not support. Not only is that position sinful, but it is hypocritical. If everyone disobeyed laws and defied rulers on a continuous basis, our society would descend into chaos. But it is because most people obey the law and respect rulers most of the time, it allows people in situations like this to take advantage of the morality and honesty of others by being scofflaws. Fritz Klein, what if I went out and broke a law that you agree with? What if I went out and defied a ruler that you support? What if my scofflaw behavior harmed you personally by causing you money or severe injury? Then you would feel differently. The laws that you support and the rulers that you feel are moral, those you want obeyed.

    And as far as illegal immigration goes, what if a bunch of white violent neo – Nazis were to start flooding the borders of your country. You would advocate fenced and fully militarized borders to keep people whose politics you disagree with and whom you regard as a threat to your personal security and your society and culture OUT. So please, Fritz Klein, stop misrepresenting the Bible and stop being a hypocrite. That “church” would NEVER be a sanctuary for a Nazi war criminal trying to hole up there in order to prevent being deported to Germany or Israel to be tried and executed. That “church” would NEVER be a sanctuary for someone discovered to have been a member of the secret police for the Pinochet, Franco, Duvalier, or one of the other right wing totalitarian regimes trying to prevent being hauled before a U.N. tribunal. If it were someone like that seeking refuge, mercy, and forgiveness THEY WOULD BAR THE DOOR AND CALL THE FEDS!

    This has nothing to do with Jesus Christ and EVERYTHING to do with worldly politics. The only way that we can tell the people who have honest – but misguided – motives from people just selfishly seeking to impose their own agenda on everyone else is to demand strict adherence to the Bible.
    Jesus Christ submitted to those who had rule over Him when He went to the cross. He told Pilate “you would have no power over Me unless it was given to you from above.” When Jesus Christ said “from above”, it was not only a reference to the Roman imperial government (Caesar, et. al.) but GOD. Jesus Christ obeyed Romans 13, and we are to go and do likewise.

  3. Devon said

    This is a good topic and I agree as Christians we shouldn’t be helping people to break the law as in illegal immigration….

    But what do we do with Romans 13 if we live under a Hitler or Stalin??? That’s kind of tough isn’t it??? One of those tough scriptures to be sure…..

  4. John Kaniecki said


    Hi hope you are all well.

    “Render therefore unto Caeser the things which are Caesar’s and unto God the things that are God’s.” Mathew 22:21. These are the Words of Jesus.

    The early Christians perished because they failed to say “Caesar is Lord.” To do so would be to deny the faith. Anything we are asked to do that would deny the faith we are to refuse to do! Furthermore we should be willing to accept the penalty that comes with disobeying the Earthly government. That is part of bearing our cross. “Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.” 2 Timothy 3:12.

    Look at Jesus as our example. He carried his cross and accepted wrong doing.

    I always like to be practical about these things. We could come up with a billion hypothetical possibilities but let as look at real ones that may occur.

    The government may ask Christians to be soldiers. I firmly believe the Bible calls Christians to be pacifists. I realize others do not accept that so let me go on. The government may ask Christians to turn their guns on our own citizens or in an another aggressive, unjustified war.

    Also the government may ask us to bow down and conform to a state religion. Read Daniel 3 it has happened before. “But if not be it known unto thee, O king, that we will not serve they gods, nor worship the golden image which thou hast set up.” “Daniel 3:18

    Christians may face jail or death for their infractions. Remember we are fighting powers on high not flesh and blood.

    Devon about our other conversations you owe me some answers from some questions. Also I contacted ‘badeagle’to get his opinion on Jefferson’s statements but he has of yet not responed.

    I just heard my brother in law Jimmy had a heart attack. Please pray for him.



  5. sadly even some christians tend to go overboard and preach the letter of the law over the spirit of the law..

  6. Devon said

    Sorry John but I work out of town quite a bit and I havn’t gotten back to you on those other threads yet…I have to find them….

    Badeagle may not get back to you personally so you might want to post on his forum….

    I don’t really have a problem with what your saying here but are you suggesting that you wouldn’t have helped in the 40’s to fight Hitler or contain a Stalin??? That is pacifism gone to far….and again, I hardly see where you are getting that in the Bible? The Lord never condemned the profession of being a soldier…indeed, the Lord at times used great violence in dealing with evil….granted, I am not saying it is normative but their is a time to use a Hammer and a time to use a feather so to speak….

    Granted….again…these are in house debates ….. I have feeling on some of these issues that we are going to have to wait until we cross the River Jordan and the Lord will teach us all things…..

    I will of course be praying for your bro in law…is he Saved?


  7. John Kaniecki said


    Hi hope you are well.

    If I had been around in WWII or even if drafted at any other time and I was as I was today I would drive an ambulance or be a paramedic or something of that nature.

    The question is it proper for a Christian to fight in a war of man. I have many scriptures and I will thrown out about half a dozen now. My wife and I are preparing to go to church services. I won’t include the scripture references but I will if you can’t find them.

    Love they neighbour.(The second greatest commandment). Love thy enemy. Turn the other cheek. Jesus’ Words “He who lives by the sword shall die by the sword.” Jesus’ Words “My kingdom is not of this world if it were my subjects would fight for me.” Ephesians six, We struggle not against flesh and blood, also our weapon is the sword of the spirit. (This is the only warfare sanctioned.) Blessed are the peacemakers for they shall be called the children of God (While this does not prove pacifism it would instruct you to talk to you enemies something Bush has said he won’t do. Note if you love you enemy you would talk to him any way.) They shall beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks. (Again not proving pacifism but that peace is coming). Jesus is known as the prince of peace. All Christians are to bear the cross.
    All Christians will suffer persecution 2Timothy 3:12. Be ye not conformed to this world but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind. (This last one preceeds Romans 13 and puts Romans 13 into it’s context.)

    There Devon are twelve scriptures for you to look up. I’d be glad to give you their book and chapter if you need it. Examine them in their context.



  8. John Kaniecki said


    Hi hope you are well.

    As the Lord would have it there was a very good scripture discussed pertaining pacifism.

    2 Corinthians 10:3-5 “For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war in the flesh: (for the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God, to the pulling down of strong holds;) casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every though to the obedience of Christ:”

    I think this is a plain statement that perfectly states my position. I am all one for warfare but spiritual warfare. I can take the conversation deeper really getting into what it means to be a Christian and to bear one’s cross.

    One quick example Hebrews 10:34 “You sympathized with those in prison those in prison and joyfully accepted the confiscation of your property , because you knew that you yourselves had better and lasting possessions.”

    And I see another scripture supporting pacifism that I have missed. “Vengance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord.” Hebrews 10:30

    You see we are to live as pilgrims and strangers in this world our hope is in the next world.

    Perhaps this examination has revealed to me a little bit about the social changes I would like to bring into affect. I must contimplate on that deeper.



  9. Job, I don’t see anywhere in Paul’s letter to the saints in Rome or any other scripture, where members of the church were ever instructed to violate Roman law by breaching any gates the Roman government deemed to be closed. Never were they instructed to illegally harbor people who were considered outsiders not allowed within Roman gates.

    But today many want to say of Romans 13, “no it didn’t mean that”, yes it did, the Adalberto United Methodist Church is apostate.

  10. Devon said

    John, I see nothing in any of those verses you quoted that would be exclusive from being a soldier or fighting in your countries army!??

    There is a time for war and a time for peace…the Lord explains that through out the Bible….

    Again, our Holy God would use tremendous violence at times in the Bible….and in secular history, sometimes tremendous violence is necessary…ie Worldwide Marxism and Nazism and the U.S. Civil war to end slavery….these are just wars….

    The Lord simply does not just teach to be passive all the time…it is a complicated subject to be sure but it is not Black and White…

  11. Devon, regarding our brother John. I’ve had lengthy discussions with him on the matter of saints being in the military and so on. Here’s the interesting thing. John will debate you at length for days about how he endorses “pacifism”, but if somebody breaks into his house, will he get on his knees and pray believing this is the proper response? NO! John will call the police, who will come with their guns and possibly kill the intruder. Or if John has a bat nearby, he might pummel the intruder himself.

    This is nothing but the “I washed my hands” approach, which is not pacifist at all. (Really just about all “pacifists” are total hypocrites when it comes down to how they defend their own households.) It’s just like David having a man killed, but not having the sword in his hand himself. David didn’t tell anybody to kill the man, he just put the man in a position he knew would likely have a negative outcome.

    A Christian CAN be part of the military and fight in war for defense of their nation, just as one can pull out a gun to defend their household and just as one can call the cops to defend their household. If any one of those actions is wrong, they all are wrong! God made it clear to David, it does not matter if you do the strong arm work via proxy or of your own hands, the outcome is on YOUR HEAD.

    Acts 18:17 (New American Standard Bible)

    17 And they all took hold of Sosthenes, the leader of the synagogue, and began beating him in front of the judgment seat. But Gallio was not concerned about any of these things.

    Devon, not only where those Greek saints doing the beating, Jesus Himself told Paul those saints would be there to look out for his well being.

    John will dance with this for days, weeks, months on end with you in debate, but the bottom line is, when the thugs come to his house, they won’t find John praying.

  12. Job said


    I am not a pacifist because I believe that violence is necessary to restrain evil. The threat of violent reprisal is one of the main deterring forces against evil. However, our Holy God using tremendous violence in the Bible … well God is sovereign holy and righteous and has a right to do such things as kill all of the firstborn males in Egypt. We are not and do not. The fact is that most wars are fought to advance the political and economic interests of the state, not to restrain evil. As a matter of fact, some people with more radical political views can make a convincing case that in many instances modern law enforcement is more about keeping politicians in office and protecting the private property of the rich and of businesses than it is about actually stopping crimes from being committed. I am not going to go that far, but such people have to arguments on their side. 1. It is a known fact that many police departments make no effort to solve, let alone prevent, even heinous crimes in low – income areas. The fact that some low income residents do not cooperate with the police is part of the reason for this, but nowhere near half of it. 2. Most police departments oppose doing anything about illegal immigration! They claim “it’s the feds’ job” but that is a lie. “The war on drugs” is the fed’s job too, but even small town podunk Barney Fife sheriff’s offices have their little narcotics task forces. They don’t want to go after illegal immigrants because A) the local businesses rely on the cheap labor and B) in many areas there are LOTS of Hispanic voters. But in virtually every city in America, the police KNOW the companies that hire illegal workers, and they know the spots where day laborers are picked up. Why they don’t go after them? Well, the same reason why “the war on drugs” only focuses on inner city crackhouses while completely ignoring the college parties and upscale clubs where drug use is out in the open. Before George W. Bush told the news media to stop writing stories about his daughters, it was commonly reported that his daughters would attend those parties WITH SECRET SERVICE DETAILS IN TOW and there would be cocaine, ecstasy, you name it, everywhere. Now keep in mind: Secret Service agents ARE MEMBERS OF THE FBI, THE AGENCY THAT IS SUPPOSEDLY FIGHTING THE DRUG WAR. Even if arresting someone might have interfered with their primary responsibility of protecting the president’s daughter, you would have thought that they would have been able to call in a tip so the feds could storm the place, arrest everyone in sight, and shut it down next Friday night, right? As much as I loathe Newt Gingrich, he told the truth on why something like that will never happen: a good percentage of high ranking federal employees are recreational drug users, and this was back in the early 90s when he made that statement (which he was later forced to apologize for and recant because unlike everything else offensive that Gingrich says, this one was, well, you know, true.). Who knows how many of them are now.

    So I am sorry, any Christian who refuses to be a soldier or even a policeman in this country because of real doubts that the violence that he may be called upon will have anything to do with restraining evil and promoting civil justice … even though I personally disagree with them (FOR NOW!) I would DEFINITELY stand up for their beliefs. I am sick and tired of cops blowing away innocent people on botched drug raids in low income areas because they know that politics won’t allow them to lay a finger on high income drug users except for the ones that are unlucky enough to get caught by the cops while they are going to the low income areas to buy their drugs (and even when that happens guess what, the criminal justice system gives them probation). And yes, we have been in Iraq 5 years and no one has produced a shred of evidence that Saddam ever intended to attack us OR how after 10 years of crushing sanctions and weapons inspections how we would have actually pulled an attack off even if he wanted to. Sure, Saddam may have had some sarin and anthrax that he could have given Al Qaeda to put in a suitcase and smuggle across the same Mexican border that the U.S. Chamber of Commerce wants to remain open so they can get their low income workers. BUT SADDAM WAS FAR FROM THE ONLY PERSON WITH THE ABILITY AND DESIRE TO DO SO, AND THAT IS THE MAIN REASON WHY THIS 1 TRILLION DOLLAR “WAR” THAT HAS KILLED HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE, MOST OF THEM INNOCENT CIVILIANS, HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH PROMOTING JUSTICE OR RESTRAINING EVIL. If anything, Iraq is more wicked than it was before, because virtually all of the Christians have had to leave the country.

    So no, I do not agree with John Kaniecki, but I am fully capable of defending his point of view.

  13. Job said

    Independent Conservative:

    Yes, a Christian can be in the military and fight for the defense of our nation. However, you have to be honest and acknowledge that the vast majority of our military actions have NOTHING to do with national defense. You had Pearl Harbor in 1941 and September 11th in 2001. Fine. What about all the other wars that this country has fought?

    It is interesting, before World War II and also before the influence of all of those war movies that Hollywood put out at the request and with the collaboration of the Department of Defense (not only is it true, but neither Hollywood or the government denies it!) our country was isolationist militarily (and pretty chauvinist economically too … most of our economic activity employed Americans and made products that were consumed by Americans). That was why Woodrow Wilson, great “Birth of A Nation” fan that he was, needed a fascist crackdown in order to pull the nation into World War I. It took the World War II propaganda movies (and you KNOW who ran Hollywood in the early days), the crusading “journalism” of the Hearst family and other groups that ran the major newspapers and media outlets (the same folks that made a star out of Billy Graham) and the United Nations being placed in New York City to turn a population that was largely anti – government and anti – interventionist into a population that was pro – New Deal, pro – farm subsidies, and pro – sending our military wherever whenever and for whatever. You and I can disagree on the current Iraq War and I exempt World War II from debate (except to relay the fact that a lot of very responsible people alive back then felt that the attack on Pearl Harbor was very preventable) but even apart from there, I challenge you to point to a “war”, military operation, or deployment of our troops that had a thing to do with our security. And yes, I do say “war” because ever since World War II – and ever since the UN took root in New York – we haven’t had a single formal declaration of war. We bend over backwards to make our “wars” legal under U.N. international law while not even bothering to make them legal according to our own laws.

    So if our military was ACTUALLY defending our country from invaders, fine. A fat lot of good our huge military and spy network did preventing September 11th. But so far, rather than having to use violence to stop someone from breaking into our homes and shooting us in the head, our military has been the ones going into other folks’ countries and going into their houses and shooting THEM in the head. I repeat … in World War I, Korea, Viet Nam, in Panama, in Lebanon, and in at minimum the first Iraq War (again for the purposes of our debate I am leaving World War II and the current Iraq War off the table) we killed innocent civilians – lots of them – for reasons that had NOTHING to do with our own national defense and security. And again, the only reason why our government is able to get away with it is 1) all of those “patriotic” war movies that Hollywood and the Pentagon have teamed up to make over the years and 2) how the Rockefeller/Rothschild new world order types have been able to infiltrate evangelicalism with their planted and propped up leaders.

    I have to tell you … killing someone that breaks into your house is justified. But killing someone because he is invading your country is just as justified. The Iraqis are killing our soldiers BECAUSE WE INVADED THEIR COUNTRY. That was the same reason why the Viet Namese killed our soldiers, the Koreans killed our soldiers, and the Somalians killed our soldiers, and so on. Where did this notion come from that we have the right to send our soldiers wherever we want, and if the people in that country doesn’t want us there that makes them enemies of peace, justice, freedom, and righteousness? I am sorry, but I do not want to be in a position where I have to kill someone because they don’t want me in their country. There isn’t a single person who dismisses the whole lot of Iraqis as “terrorists” because many of them are fighting our troops for being over there who would accept an Iraqi army in our country for five seconds. You just let the Iraqi Army or the Mexican Army or the Pakistani army start rolling through Nebraska and South Carolina. Those folks would get out their assault weapons and Civil War re – enactment weapons and start picking them off right and left. And the second that one of those foreign soldiers kills or rapes one of our civilians, especially if it is a child (you know, the type of thing that happens with our troops in other countries ALL THE TIME!) a full scale war would break out, and our army would have to take military action against our own citizens to protect their army! So why do we expect the Iraqis, Afghanis, Somalians, Viet Namese, or anyone else to put up with treatment that we ourselves wouldn’t put up with in a million years?

    I am sorry, but while I do not endorse John K.’s pacifist beliefs, I also do not endorse anyone’s deciding to join our military at this particular time, or for that matter when any new world order globalist militarist is in the White House.

  14. I lived in El Paso Texas for a number of years, first with the military and later after I retired from the service. I know first hand this is an attempt to take back what was taken from them by force, without firing a shot. I use to hear them talk about this amongst themselves, saying this is their land.
    When I went for job interviews I was told I didn’t speak spanish (this is on American soil), so I couldn’t have the job. Many spanish speakers with no education or manager skills were given jobs over myself and many others who are america born citizens. I was refuses a foremans position with 2 years of college at the time, and 7 years supervising, while the hispanic male, was given the job with no education and no supervisory. But he spoke spanish.

    They are people crossing the border and refusing to speak english on American soil.
    In 1992 when my last child was born, I watched groups of women walk back and forth in front of the American hospital to help induce labor. This was because the U.S. government would not refuse a women in labor, and once her child is born on U.S. soil, it becomes an America citizen and she and the baby can get food stamps, W.I.C. and federal aid. But we citizens have to qualifiy, they don’t. Then I’ve seen with my own eyes hundreds move their mom, grandmom, uncles and everyone other relative to America, living ten in a house all getting asisstance from the money taken out of our weekly pay checks. We are being overran purposely for monetary reasons.
    I worked around mexican men, some of which said they were Christian. Many of them told me they hate America yet the flock here for the chance to make a living. I’m not saying they all feel the same, just some of the ones I met.
    The American born Hispanic males I knew would tell me how their relatives living across the border hated them for being born on this side of the Roi Grande. They would often pick fights with them and say to them you think you’re something don’t you gre-go.
    We have to stop the border crossing at all costs to include imprisoning those who give them protection. We have a right too protect our borders against people who hate us as much as the Islamic terroist….. though not all of them hate us.
    I pray we will protect ourselves and not become weak like Israel did, allowing those they once conquered coming into the promise land, to return and take it back. It was for this very reason God installed Judges, because the people were weak, and every man did those things that were right in his own eyes, including the priests. Ministers stop protecting them, you are breaking a God given law meant to establish order.

  15. Devon said

    Oh I definately agree about illegal immigration…we must do all we can to stop it but our leaders are letting us down!

    IC…I thought the exact same thing about a potential burglar ………. I am sure John like any other person would use tremendous violence on anyone that tries to break into his home and hurt his family…..and that would be right and the correct thing to do from a Biblical POV….

    And again, on a larger scale, there is nothing wrong in fighting in just wars….and I do not think you will get many people arguing that fighting people like Hitler and Stalin or Mao were not just wars…

    But I do understand where John is coming from…up here in Canada, we have Mennonite groups that think the same way…..very pacifist….I certainly do not agree with them but there have always been in the Body of Christ, beleivers that have felt that way…

  16. Let’s keep in mind, the territory out West was once part of the Mexican territory, because the Mexican Indians had been overrun by the Spanish and the Spanish firepower is what enabled them to overrun territory into what is now the western United States. So if today’s Mexicans and South Americans are “taking back” anything that was “once theirs”, it’s because their ancestors were once part of the Spanish armada that took the land from other Indians. So to feel there is some level of “righteousness” in a Spanish overrun of America is only to claim the former invader has some level of nobility over the current occupier of the land. The old Indians of the past are GONE. The culture is GONE. Their language is GONE and everybody in Mexico speaks SPANISH. They wear Western styled clothing and hats, so it’s one Western culture running in on another. In Mexico, darker skinned people have a much harder life in terms of being forsaken because of skin tone than any dark skinned person in America and the racial bias is far worse. So where’s the racial “justice” in Mexicans overrunning America? It’s nothing but Spain, Spanish speaking and Roman Catholic running in all over again.

    The bottom line is, that the western US is no longer Mexican territory and Mexico gave it up in a legal and binding contract, called the Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo.

    Reconquista Debunked!

  17. John Kaniecki said


    Hi hope you are well. I have presented my scriptures and if they do not speak to your heart as they speak to my heart then so be it.


    How you know what I would do amazes me! Anyway there is the promise that God won’t let you be tested beyond what you can handle.

    Today was a twelve hour work day. But it is not hard work by any means. I may make my first sale tomorrow so please pray for me and also that I may be a good Christian example.



  18. John, I am certain the Holy Spirit will keep you from being a flim flam man at the sale tomorrow 🙂 .

    I hope God never puts you or I in the position to have to use force, but many Christians are put in that position and I think if you’ve got a bat near by if the time should come for you, that you’ll be batting 1000! (And we’ve discussed this before, so I base my statements off some of your prior responses when I’ve talked with you in the past about this.)

    You know I see nothing wrong with a Christian working as a police office. Badge and gun, out fighting crime. You know, those guys you would call if your house were being broken into. So they could clean up what you don’t catch with the bat. And likewise I see nothing wrong with a Christian serving in the armed forces.

  19. Devon said

    That is interesting IC about the History of Mexico and how the darker people down there are more discriminated against!! Very sad….You know, I really have not studied the history of North and South America all that much…mostly Ancient Rome and Greece and Biblical and Islamic History…and Military History…

    John…I think those verses are wonderful….but on this in house debate, we are going to have to disagree….I do not see evidence of pacifism in the Bible…I see it partially….but I also see the times of violence that sometimes our Lord used and ordered some of his children to use….

    I hope, obviously, that I never have to use the latter…

  20. Devon – I’ve not only researched how there is much racial discrimination in Mexico and South America, way more than is in America, with far less means to counter it. I’ve seen it in my visits to Mexico and South American countries. Of course me being an American tourist, I was not really seen as a Black person they treat like natives of their area with darker skin. I was an American and like other tourists, they were bending over backwards for the dollars in my pocket. And back when I used to visit Mexican and South American places, the dollar was mighty strong.

    I saw how they can more openly discriminate against people with darker skin. Things that would result in a lawsuit fast (victorious and very lucrative) if it occurred in America. And once you see the shacks in the hills and the slums where it just so happens people have darker skin, you never forget it.

    I Told You Latinos Bring in a Negative View of Blacks With Them From South of the Border!

  21. John Kaniecki said


    Hi hope you are well.

    I certainly respect the your right to believe as you choose. I’d like specific scriptures though that prove your point please.

    In concluding remarks the Old Testament God definitely sanctioned His people to go to war and destroy other nations. Indeed they slew every indiviual and their live stalk. Also God used Assyria and Babylon to do His will in destroying Isreal and Judah.

    It is however a New Covenant we live under. There is a Kingdom of Heaven but it is a spiritual one and has no physical borders. America is NOT God’s kingdom.

    Furthermore though Assyria and Babylon were used by God to do His work they were not moral nor Godly people. Each nation eventually met their demise as well.

    The only acts of violence that I read about in the New Testament, outside of Revelation is Jesus clearing out the temple. While some claim that this was a gentle act I strongly disagree. He over turned tables of the money chambers and whipped others. The Bible talks about his zeal consuming Him for the temple. Nobody would allow a man to casually overturn their table and chase them away under passive conditions. No I believe Jesus acted with an anger and a fury and everyone feared him and perhaps thought Him to be mad.

    But what is the Temple but God’s special place on Earth. Jesus’ words as I quoted before were that “My kingdom is not of this world.” Yet the temple I believe was God’s place on this Earth.

    In Revelation it talks about much blood shed and I am not prepared to discuss it at any length now. I’d just like to acknowledge the fact that it is different.

    Finally read a book by Dee Snyder called, “I Buried My Heart At Wounded Knee.” In our discussions we apparently have a big rift between us on some issues. That is okay! If nothing less acquainting yourself with the literature or books I read will prepare you in the future to deal with others who think like me. For example if you read the Watch Tower magazine of the JW’s you know where to begin your discussions about the truth.

    My brother in law Jim needed a second surgery.

    Also I’d like some sources from outside the Bible to prove the Bible is the Word of God. I read books that explained the early dates of the manuscripts but I have given those books away. A web site that I could print out facts would be ideal.



  22. Well what if it’s true?

    First Humans To Settle Americas Came From Europe, Not From Asia Over Bering Strait Land-ice Bridge, New Research Suggests

  23. Job said


    Yeah, first saw this on one of the “we hates black people” racist – excuse me paleoconservative – sites that I like to monitor from time to time. Incidentally, this is no different from what the “British Israel” folks have always claimed if I am correct.

  24. Job, it’s not impossible that the first to settle were from Europe and that they might have been killed off by some new comers from Asia.

    Every group on this planet has a claim of some sort that they were first to the Americas. For all we know, they all got here, commingled and what we call “Indians” were the result.

    Really, I just posted the article to see if anyone really cared about the matter at all, because it has no bearing on my salvation. So I think it should not be a matter we worry about. Whoever God allowed to be here was here and I’m here now, because He determined and appointed it to be so 😀 .

    But I’m curious if you read the article in full?

  25. Devon said

    John, I would point out how Saul was ordered to wipe out the Amalikites…even the women and children…the Lord does wipe out evil cultures….we do have precedent for that in the Bible….

    Also Gideon and his little army…I do not think God’s morality has changed from the Old to New Covenant….

    I simply see no contradiction here…if I was a soldier fighting Nazis or Marxists or Islamic terrorists or whatever…if the whole culture is evil, then do away with it….obviously I would prefer if people around the world would give their lives to Christ and change their evil ways……but that isn’t always going to happen…

    Again…if a man invades your house to kill you and your family, will you simply stand aside or take the necessary precautions…even if you have to kill the criminal? I think you would agree right!?

    And on a larger scale, if evil cultures or countries are out to get us, as Christians I see no problem with us fighting them…

    I really am not sure how you get Pacifism from the Bible? None of those verses you quote point to that….

    Granted, this is a in house debate between Christians and certainly not an essential issue like Abortion or Homosexuality or turning our back on the poor etc etc…

    IC….fascinating stuff about Latin America…I have only been to Mexico once and never desire to go back unless the Lord tells me so…really amazing how people look down on other people just because of the tone of one’s skin…all around the world…

    I was reading about Brazil recently and how African Brazilians are treated really badly by the Euro White Brazilians…wow…I always assumed racism was only a North American thing…being raised by the Liberal media, that is what one is focused on….Now as I grow older, I have learned it is everywhere…real racism…from Rwanda to Rhode Island….

    Take care…

  26. John Kaniecki said


    Okay since you persist let me ask you to explain what these scriptures mean to you.

    Turn the other cheek.

    Love your enemy.

    If someone strikes you do you strike them back?
    Would you kill and hurt somebody you love?

    Answer these questions. I think that you are putting too much into this world. As Christians we are pilgrims and strangers here.

    I dismiss your Old Testament examples because we are in the New Testament. It’s not that I don’t believe in warfare I do it is just that I know from Ephesians 6 that it is spiritual warfare that we fight, “Not against flesh and blood.” And 2 Corinthians 10 tells us we do not war in the flesh.

    Gotta run. See my other comment on the other blog.



  27. pertaining pacifism…

    By all rights now I had every right to defend myself, from the home, personal invasion by a confirmed drug addict, who had forced into, broken into my home, had thus threathened my life, my space too, invaded my privacy.. and Yes I next was ready to kill this intruder..

    but upon my further real personal reflection now was it worth killing anyone over a piece of bread now? No it was not.. never..

  28. Devon – I’ve been to Brazil too and yea, the Black folks there don’t have it easy at all. Lots of stories I could tell about what I saw and treatment of Blacks in ways that very much shocked me. But I’ll just say, when it comes to “racism”. America is in my opinion the absolutely best place to be and no matter how much any Black man cries, he’s never going to find a better moment and place for personal opportunity than he’ll find in America right now.

  29. Devon said


    Turning the other cheek has nothing to do with defending your family against a murderous intruder…would you agree with that at least?

    That is a verse that is very much debated to exactly what it means and no doubt in our lives, their is a time to turn the other cheek…however, that is not an open call to militant pacifism.

    Loving your enemy …well that is easy..I can still love someone like Bin Ladin or Charles Manson yet I would still want to see them brought to the full justice of the law..Loving your enemy is not ignoring their evil! And NEVER mistake forgiveness of sins to mean that we do not suffer from our consquences…ie. The thief on the cross…forgiven yet justly accused…

    If someone strikes me, would I strike them back? Again, depending on the context…as a Christian witness I give up my right to strike back…BUT,lets say someone breaks into your home, they are not coming there to listen to the Good News but to do you harm…so again, yes I would do all that is necessary to eliminate the threat…

    You have to see all these verses in their context…they are not carte blanche for a Christian to stand by and let evil happen

    Again…I ASK you..if you see someone attacking your family, will you stand by and do nothing or will you do the right thing and take action?

    I agree ultimately that are battle is not against the flesh..but against principalities and the like…

    I believe these verses have a element of subjectivity to them and for each Christian, the time will come when we KNOW when we are to lay down our lives and not strike back…for some of us, that will mean martyrdom …but I seriously doubt that our Lord..the Lord from Genesis to Revelation expects us in every situation that presents itself in the form of various assaults , means for us to never defend ourselves or our countries…

    This is not a Black and White issue John…it is quite complicated…The Bible has use for Warriors and Peace makers…they are not mutually exclusive.

    To Nonconformist….Yeah, I think we can agree that if someone breaks into my house and I am the only one there, I am pretty sure I will not risk my life over the thief stealing some of my goods or food…I was referring to if the criminal was going to rape my wife or kill my loved ones…in that case, you have every God Given right to do what is necessary to defend your family…to do nothing, would likely be immoral.

    IC…good points…and interesting…and I do agree…of all the Western Nations, America is farthest advanced when it comes to race relations…..I read about things that are done in places like Spain and Russia amongst others and how they ridicule blacks and others and you would NEVER see that kind of attitude in America…and don’t even get me started on the Japanese and how they view Blacks….its absurd…..

  30. >>To Nonconformist….Yeah, I think we can agree that if someone breaks into my house and I am the only one there, I am pretty sure I will not risk my life over the thief stealing some of my goods or food…

    that reponse was slanted by you.. I was not risking my life at all.. I was about to kill the intruder…

  31. Devon said

    Well, either way Nonconformer, I am not going to kill someone over my goods or foodstuffs as long as I am the only one home and the said burglar is not going to try and kill me…

    OTOH….if said criminal threaten’s my person or my family, then I will shoot to kill if needs must…the blood is on the criminal’s hands…not those who are defending themselves…

  32. Devon, speaking of the Japanese, nobody ever talks about how they treated the Chinese. If you let most Blacks tell the story of world history, you’d never know what happened to so many Chinese!

  33. Devon said

    True enough…I see horrific hatred between the Chinese and Japanese from past hurts during ww 2 and the rape of nanking…My Dear Lord…such hatred and unforgivenss…same goes for Koreans and how the view the Japanese…

    Also, I recently learned that the Vietnamese lived underthe harsh rule of the Chinese for over a thousand years until the last century…wow…go and check out how much hatred exists between the Chinese and Viets…its shocking and sad…

    We sometimes in North America only think of the Black/White/Native divide and here in Canada it is the French/English/Native divide…

    BUT all around the world, man hates his fellow man based on color, culture or class….

    Satan is always sowing his evil and the only solution remains the Savior!

  34. God still opposess all human rigths abudes, and the best way to deal with it is to shout it from the housetops, call the police.. expose it to all.. I do.

  35. Devon said

    Can’t really argue with that Nonconformer though its kinda hard to help on the overseas problems but their is alway’s prayer to be sure…

  36. One way to help overseas,

    And there are lots of other charities that help saints overseas. Groups like the Salvation Army have a presence in many nations.

  37. And that’s not to say those groups are going to end the persecution, but they certainly can bring some relief to those who need it.

  38. Devon said

    Those are good groups and also I already give to VOM (Voice of the Martyrs) and SIM and Intercede International….all really good groups to help our persecuted brethren in Islamic, Marxist or various Dictatorships…..

    If our Savior tarries, the day will come when oversea nations will have to be sending us aid if things continue as they are for the Body of Christ in the Western World!

  39. >>And there are lots of other charities that help saints overseas. Groups like the Salvation Army have a presence in many nations.Dream on.. I had personaly wittnessed Salvation army personel stealing for themselves what the citizens had donated to the poor, and a secretary of the organization next even confirmed it to me.. as I had detailed to major news editors in Canada.

    we can also know that over 70 percent of the donations tends not to reach the intended persons in most organizations, cause the overheads, corruptions, even for the empire buiding as well are much too high..

  40. Well Nonconformer, once you setup a means to grant relief in those areas, let me know.

    Judas robbed from the treasury, but was it wrong for people to give Jesus and His disciples a donation? Should we all stop giving to groups that are making some effort to help because the targets of the donations only receive 30%?

    Keep working to expose the corruption, we certainly want the crooks in those groups tossed out. But once you have a better group in place, be sure to let us know.

  41. As far as a good system to give to the poor.. it is already there in the book of acts.. it is giving to the poor through your local church.. even the old testament tithe insisted that 1/7 of the tithe be given to the local poor people.

    We all do have a responsibility to give firstly to the poor in our own church, neighborhood through the local church, and that is why the Deacons were set to do this. If the deacons are not doing this.. that is another issue..

    and yes still we have a responsibly always still to insure the moneys is not being stolen, even in churches now too.

    (Acts 6:1 KJV) And in those days, when the number of the disciples was multiplied, there arose a murmuring of the Grecians against the Hebrews, because their widows were neglected in the daily ministration.

    (Acts 6:2 KJV) Then the twelve called the multitude of the disciples unto them, and said, It is not reason that we should leave the word of God, and serve tables.

    (Acts 6:3 KJV) Wherefore, brethren, look ye out among you seven men of honest report, full of the Holy Ghost and wisdom, whom we may appoint over this business.

    (Acts 2:45 KJV) And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need.

    (Acts 4:35 KJV) And laid them down at the apostles’ feet: and distribution was made unto every man according as he had need.

  42. Nonconformer, I think it’s safe to affirm that all here give to some local church. Still those local churches don’t have the infrastructure to reach some that a Christian charity group may reach and if they had the infrastructure I’m sure the same levels of corruption would take root in time. As I’ve noted Judas was with Christ robbing the treasury before pointing out the Lord for 30 pieces of silver. You’ll never find and you’ll never make the perfect charity, but of course we keep trying to remove any leaven.

    We all should give to help those near us, but can you name a single saint in the Americas who is suffering like our brothers and sisters overseas? Does the Lord not know of their pain and desire we comfort them if able? Can you claim it’s better to give your brother in Canada money for a better bed when he’s got a bed or give to a brother overseas with no bed?

    Do you feel brothers overseas are to be shown less?

    Galatians 6:10 (New American Standard Bible)

    10 So then, while we have opportunity, let us do good to all people, and especially to those who are of the household of the faith.

    Was Paul not collecting from poor saints in Corinth and taking the money from Rome ALL THE WAY to Jerusalem to help the starving there, 1 Corinthians 16?

    In scripture, aid went to the saints according to their need, not location. I assert, the saints in the greatest need should get the most assistance, regardless of their location.

  43. Apostle Paul beyond a shadow of doubt a real Christian, who took all precautions not to give any offence, was honest, trustworthy too.. was definitely also working in helping the poor people in Rome, elsewhere, as part as his Christian Duties too now, so should all Pastors thus now too!

    Rev George Mueller is a classical example of a faith ministry helping poor persons., and this pastor did not live high on the hog in the process too, he was not empire building, or helping himself. Mother Theresa and many others now as well.

    In fact the whole New testament Christian church was helping the Poor Christian persons firstly not just apostle Paul, for they will know we are Christians by how we love one another, not our mere words still too– he Paul was just a delivery boy on behalf of the Christian Church, And all pastors need to help the poor people in their church, all churches too.. Jesus Christ cared for the poor people! yes he fed them, healed them, delivered them too.

    and all very much unlike these days where the evangelical leaders live high on the hog, and their churches especially seems to be too self centered, have falsely abdicated their duties, roles falsely in helping the poor people.. but seem too readily even these days to steal the tithe..

    Undeniably 1/7 of the tithe was to be given directly to the local poor people, can any local evangelical, catholic church , even the cult Mormon prove in fact that they do this? The tithe itself also could not be used for paying of mortgages, nor can any person owning any tangible property- real estate , even supposedly poor person or a Christian worker received any portion of the tithe now as well… just as these same principles are applied to persons receiving social welfare from the governments too.

    The priests themselves in the book of Malachi themselves now by God were rightfully accused of abusing, or stealing God’s tithes , and that happens too often theses days now still in the churches. I had many an evangelical pastor tell me they would kick me out of their church if I preached any of this above in their church too. I have even seen evangelical pastors often steal directly myself and reported it too.

    Yes my main point was the Godly, Biblical pattern for giving to the poor people set forth for giving to the poor people was definitely through the church still, if the LOCAL church is not doing it, it is time to get the LOCAL church in order.

    and I for certainly and now on many, many occasions I do not trust rightfully the Salvation Army to do this, especially since they too often clearly have departed from the faith, and employed ungodly believers to do their work too often too. Nor even the Christian Missionary Alliance church and rightfully as well and I have detailed on my sites why too.

    I had also noted in the past from a study of events band history that the most lasting efforts, contributions were those that involved the Church directly… which now includes shelters, hospital and university too and worldwide. Famous university, hospitals were originally started by Christian organizations, churches, in Canada and the US now too, both Catholic and protestant ones too.

  44. where local churches who don’t have the infrastructure to help oor people in their church should estsblish one.. and yes they can send money to another church they can really trust to do this too in another country to help the poor peopel there.. it is an still unacceptable sin how much too oftne now the donations are too often abused. We as Christians have to be diligent to see next also how the money is obeing spent, not just in donating it.

    >> In scripture, aid went to the saints according to their need, not location.
    this is a distortion of the truth to me.. all poor peopel need to be helped, locally firstly.

    (1 Tim 5:8 KJV) But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel.

    (1 Tim 5:9 KJV) Let not a widow be taken into the number under threescore years old, having been the wife of one man,

    (1 Tim 5:10 KJV) Well reported of for good works; if she have brought up children, if she have lodged strangers, if she have washed the saints’ feet, if she have relieved the afflicted, if she have diligently followed every good work.

  45. (Acts 6:3 KJV) Wherefore, brethren, look ye out among you seven men of honest report, full of the Holy Ghost and wisdom, whom we may appoint over this business.

    and where are these honest men in the local churches today? they are not all to be like the Apostle Judas. to be unlike most of the TV evangelsists, big Ministries too, who live high on the hog, drive nice cars, live in espensive mansions and this is never acceptable still to God for sure, I know! for he told me so too!!

  46. Devon said

    I’m not really sure what you are trying to say Nonconformer?

    When I need to give to the needs of the local saints here in Southern Alberta, I give through my local church or directly to the person in need…When I need to help the suffering persecuted brethren overseas, I give to various ministries as I have posted above ie VOM, SIM, Christian Aid etc etc…

  47. hey it was in Alberta that I saw, met, witnessed the most crooked pastors, evangelicals, even the Baptist, Alliance, Salvation Army, and i never saw so many crooked bad pastors in one place too.. but next saw them in other cities in Canada now too.. I saw pastors steal directly in Calgary too, and often.

  48. I was shocked when I became a real Christian, not a pretend one, how my version of Christianity now differed from so many loudly professing Christians on many issues now as well such as spiritual gifts, helping poor people, and I had to really rightfully conclude that the others were not real Christians, were persons who did not read the while bible, were not practicing the truth faith according to the new testament, the whole Bible too but wrongfully these others they now were preaching practicing the overly false, simplified Gospel according to them, for they were hirelings, false , false teachers false prophets, false pastors, false elders, false evangelists, false deacons, a false Christian.

  49. Devon said

    Well certainly there are false ‘christians’ everywhere I’m sure….but I’m not sure what that has to do with giving to oversea’s missions to help our suffering brethren?

  50. Devon, I think Nonconformer is trying to say that he feels you should not give to any but your local church and if your local church is not doing it (something overseas) than you are supposed to press them to do it.

    That is for him and I say for him alone.

    I give as the Lord leads and not just to the local church. And my local church works with other churches and church groups, to give to saints in need and I give personally to other groups helping saints in need.

  51. Devon said

    Ahhh…OK…that helps IC…I guess if Noncomformer feels that way that’s fine…I give as I am led to…funny thing..just today I had about 500 Dollars set aside here to distrubute amongst some of my ministries and then me and my wife got word that a Sister’s Daughter in Oregon is in dire straits this month trying to raise a family on her own and make the rent pmt so me and my wife thought we should give her the Lord’s money….I don’t even think she is a Christian but I wanted her to know that this is the Lord’s doing and I want this to be a witness for her…

    Regardless, it was the right thing to do for us today….

    I think that we are to take care of the Brethren first and then also help the unsaved also…

  52. I make no excuses, as a Christian I read the Bible, and I try to follow it, the teachings and the valid patterns in it.

    Thus I think we all should start giving through the local Christian church as per the pattern undeiably set in the new Testament, unles you are reading and following a different Bible? and we all should also give at the local Home, the local Church too, firstly, even to the local poor people and yes even if you live in Alberta too.. for that is what the Bible says we should clearly regualrly do… but that does not stop you from giving more to someone else next too…

    I started to give in my Church. I had helped with a weekly service for the poor, neglected people in my local Calgary church, and fed them freely at the services too….

    so what are the Calgary churches excuses for not helping also to deal with this Calgary poor, Homeless problem? Or are they again wrongfully waiting for someone else to do it? Is it or is it not the church’s Ministry to help poor people like Jesus and the Appostles did? or have the churches in Calgary now rewritten the Gospel, their exlusion of helping all the poor people in Calgary to their own liking? Note Calgary even has the highest rate of homelessness in Canada.

    Canada, Alberta, Calgary’s Homeless population jumps beyond 4,000 More families also do now need help: July 16, 2008 In the city that was supposedly the home of rich people, millionaires now too Calgary’s homeless numbers are growing significantly faster than the city’s general population, leaping 18 per cent since 2006 according to this year’s count. As of May 14 there were 4,060 homeless Calgarians, up from 3,436 in 2006. Local Officials say the cannot. or refuse cannot explain it, but the rate of homeless families jumped dramatically, rising to 197 from 145 in 2006 — a 36 per cent increase. These figures are just the tip of the massive iceberg of the high cost of living in Calgary, and the actual low paying jobs mostly available in Alberta for the average persons, excluding the executives, city hall and governmental . There are many other problems in this city not advertised, such as the extremely high rate of divorce too, all even as a result of past Conservative policies, denials too.. too many poor, homeless, suffering people have already left the province so now they are no longer included in the figures of the prior poor and needy, suffering people.. It has been known for decades in Alberta that their free food banks are one of the busiest places in Canada too.”Low-wage jobs are plentiful, but Alberta does not have rent controls. . Many of Calgary’s homeless are employed — as many as 60 per cent staying at the Mustard Seed Street Ministry, said operations manager Floyd Perras.” But this spring, Metro Vancouver — which has at least twice Calgary’s population — released a preliminary number of 2,600 homeless, a 20 per cent increase from the count done in 2005. Vancouver even has a lower Homeless rate..

    What Alberta’s Conservatives, evangelicals still do tend to still bash the poor people? for they tend to live and practice in the law of the jungle, survival of the fittest, everyman for himself.. all done yes in the home town of Canada’s professing Christian Missionary Alliance Prime Minister Stephen Harper now too.. the richest province in Canada cannot, or refuses to look adequately after it’s own poor people.. shame on them all.

  53. I think that we are to take care of the local poor Christian Brethren in our own church first and even also help the unsaved elsewhere next also does not mean we do stop giving firstly to our own family members..but just giving to our own family is not enough..Job also helped everyone he could starting locally

    A person’s attiude to the poor and to money shows in reality a lot of what their Christianity is really like too

  54. (Mark 3:33 KJV) And he answered them, saying, Who is my mother, or my brethren? 34 And he looked round about on them which sat about him, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren! 35 For whosoever shall do the will of God, the same is my brother, and my sister, and mother.

    (Mat 25:31 KJV) When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: 32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: 33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35 For I was an hungered, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: 36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. 37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungered, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? 38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? 39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? 40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me. 41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: 42 For I was an hungered, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: 43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. 44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungered, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? 45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. 46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

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