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If The Declaration of Independence Is A Deist Document Then Why Do Christians Respect It?

Posted by Job on July 4, 2008

I am not a fan of the author of this, a neo – conservative Jew who uses the time honored tactic of using legitimate issues like affirmative action, political correctness, and hip – hop culture and to cowardly hide his racist attacks on the black community behind them. Still, the information that he provides makes me wonder ever more why Christians who worship the God that commanded us “thou shalt have no other gods besides me” and commands us not to have anything to do with idols, false religions, or anything pertaining to them sit around and deny that our founding fathers were anything other than a bunch of deists, unitarians, and freemasons. It is curious that both of our new world order globalist appointed presidential candidates are doing their part to keep the deception going. John McCain claims that America was founded on Christianity, Barack Obama claims that America was once a Christian nation but is not any more. And this brings us back to Goldblatt, one of the many neocons of various religions (Jews, Roman Catholics, Mormons, evangelicals, agnostics/atheists) lobbying people to come together under the banner of politics, values, philosophy, nationalism, etc. rather than to worship the God who will save or destroy us based on our relationship with His Son Jesus Christ, and to fellowship with like – minded people. I have to say that it is convenient for people like him. During the liberal movements of the early 20th century, Jews found out that the best way to deal with the threat of mainline and liberal Christians’ evangelizing them (especially Presbyterians in Philadelphia, who actually started several Messianic Jewish congregations there) was to encourage them to get their minds off Jesus Christ and onto social action: poverty programs, civil rights, anti – war, environmentalism, regulation, feminism, socialism, etc. That left the conservative evangelicals, however, and decades of using the mainstream and liberal Christians – depicted as “better educated and more tolerant and respectable – to marginalize the proselytizing evangelicals failed. So … a better way came along, which was the creation of the notion of “Judeo – Christian American values” and a political agenda around it. Since defending American culture through politics and propaganda was the primary goal, its members could not afford to drive off any conservative Republican (even if they weren’t conservative like Rudy Giuliani or for that matter like the “Reagan Democrats”) who had their political and cultural agenda by telling them that without Jesus Christ they are going to burn in the lake of fire for an eternity. So, in order to support this movement, an alternative history of America was created, and it was conveniently able to build on the very same propaganda machine that had been put in place for World War II and the Cold War. (Please know that the left uses this very same machine; among other things the United Nations, the federal reserve, and a great many other “reforms” would never have been tolerated without it.) So here is something that you will almost certainly never hear preached at an evangelical church: the actual beliefs expressed by the Declaration of Independence given to you by a Jew who is exposing it only because he wants his conservative evangelical readers to come to the same position that liberal Christians and Roman Catholics have accepted long ago: that so long as we share the same culture and politics there is no reason for you to harass us Jews with accepting your Jesus Christ. This fellow, Mark Goldblatt, makes it explicit at the end.

The Necessary Religion by Mark Goldblatt

The most famous sentence ever set to paper by an American was not conceived in a single instant. In his first draft of the Declaration of Independence, Thomas Jefferson wrote: “We hold these truths to be sacred and undeniable; that all men are created equal and independent, that from that equal creation they derive rights inherent and inalienable, among which are the preservation of life, and liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.”

Benjamin Franklin and John Adams read this draft and suggested minor alterations, which Jefferson incorporated into the version presented to the Second Continental Congress. The sentence became: “We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness.”

Though no one knows who made which edit, it’s safe to assume that all three men gave that sentence a good going over — in all likelihood agonized over its final form. Each change is therefore worth noting. But I’m going to focus here on just two: 1) “sacred and undeniable” became “self-evident,” and 2) “endowed by their Creator” was added.

The second change is perhaps the more intriguing, so let’s begin there. We can rule out the idea that the mention of a “Creator” was meant as a straightforward signal of piety. Franklin and Jefferson were deists — that is, they believed in a higher power that governed the universe, but not a personal deity; indeed, Jefferson once literally cut up a New Testament, excising all the supernatural elements, in order to pare down the text to its moral core. (So Thomas Jefferson was the creator of Judeo – Christian values, and Christian values is an explicit rejection of Christianity itself!) Their Christianity, if it can be called such, was of the most attenuated kind. Adams was a more traditional believer, but his Unitarianism was among the least emotive of Christian denominations. (Goldblatt well knows that Unitarianism is not Christianity but heresy because they reject the Trinity and the deity of Jesus Christ, but naturally since Unitarian beliefs are A. closer to his own and B. do not evangelize Jews – or anyone else for that matter – he prefers it and has an agenda of promoting it as Christianity … as a matter of fact I can imagine some more genteel sorts seeing his description of Unitarianism as a plus, a preferable alternative to the Bible thumping table turning Baptists and charismatics.) So their collective decision to invoke a capital-C “Creator” as the source of men’s equality must be taken as pragmatic, not devotional. But what does invoking the Creator accomplish?

Remember that Jefferson had originally written that “all men are created equal and independent,” and “that from that equal creation they derive rights inherent and inalienable.” The problem is that these words are manifestly false. (Here we have not only a Jew denying Galatians 3:28 and Colossians 3:11, but a race – baiter refusing to admit the fact that “created independent” was obviously dropped because of slavery.) Even if we grant that men are created independent — itself a dubious assertion — they are certainly not created equal in any quantifiable way. Not physically. Not intellectually. Not even if we mean their hidden potentials. No matter how much I practice, I’ll never be as good a basketball player as Michael Jordan is. (Racist conservatives are always quick to bring up Michael Jordan.) No matter how long I study, I’ll never be as good a physicist as Albert Einstein was. (Blacks are good at basketball, but Jews and whites are smart, so everyone know and stay in their place!) Hence men’s equality, if it exists, must consist of an immeasurable quality, an intangible essence, a soul.

This is the signature recognition, the sine qua non, of natural-law theory — the moral system through which Jefferson sought to make his case for American independence. (In other words, through humanistic philosophy, not Christianity, because humanism cannot co – exist with a sovereign personal deity. Either the deity has to no longer be personal – deism – or no longer be sovereign. The Declaration of Independence, then, is not a Christian document but an anti – Christian one representing the views and beliefs of a FALSE RELIGION no different from Islam, Hinduism, or for that matter Judaism. I am aware that plenty of Christians  – including some that I respect – found John Locke’s natural law theory useful in their preaching and theology, as his thoughts on natural law are derived from both Roman Catholic thought and the natural theology of many Protestant denominations. But this is why I agree with Tertullian’s “”what has Athens do to with Jerusalem? what has the academy to do with the church?” statement where he cautions against Christianity as philosophy, as philosophy was invented by PAGANS. ) On a collective level, the theory holds that the written-down laws of any government, including those of the King of England, must conform with, in Jefferson’s words, the “Laws of Nature” – which, while unwritten, flow from “Nature’s God” and are thus binding on all people and governments. (1. God’s laws are written in the same Bible that Jefferson mutilated just as did Marcion. 2. Jefferson’s deity sounds a lot like the eastern deities being worshiped through New Age and environmentalism, not to mention through POLITICS. And curious that Jefferson believes that his deity had the sovereignty to impose a covenant on every person and government on the planet.)

On an individual level, natural law holds that there is a Third Party, beyond the biological mother and father, involved in the act of human creation. Your two parents generated your material substance, the goop and soup of you; that much could be said of any mammal. But according to natural law, God expresses His interest in every human being through the act of ensoulment — the creation of an individual soul — by virtue of which the human being becomes a person. And from that quality of personhood flow the inalienable rights of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. (Certainly sounds a lot like the false prosperity doctrine to me. No mention of carrying the cross, dying to self, warring against the flesh or against the world, sacrifice, or persecution. And why not? Because to have those elements YOU NEED THE INCARNATION, WORK, DEATH, AND RESURRECTION OF JESUS CHRIST! YOU NEED THE CROSS, AND THE DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE CROSS!)

The genesis of this concept of personhood is, well, Genesis. Specifically, Genesis 1:26-27: “So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.” If the biblical passage makes sense, given the peculiarities to which human flesh is subject, the image of God in man must be the soul. (This shows how Thomas Jefferson, just as the modern religious right, is perfectly capable of incorporating the things from the Bible that they agree with while rejecting the things that they do not. By the way, Jewish Mark Goldblatt has yet to mention a single thing from the New Testament. Gee, I wonder why …)

But in what sense is this idea “self-evident”? If you think about it, the proposition that all men are created equal is by no means “self-evident” — at least not in the common sense of the phrase. (Again, look at Romans, Galatians, and Colossians, Goldblatt.) Neither is the idea that they are endowed by their Creator with inalienable rights, nor that those rights include life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. (I agree, this concept comes from Enlightnment humanism and is found nowhere in the Old or New Testaments. Of course, religious right preachers claim that the Bible gives Christians these things SO LONG AS THEY LIVE IN AMERICA, EUROPE, OR ANY OTHER MOSTLY WHITE CAPITALIST DEMOCRATIC NATION! Everyone else … well hey my God sends me the sunshine and the black, red, brown, etc. Christians everywhere else the rain.)

Why then did Jefferson, Franklin, and Adams prefer “self-evident” to “sacred and undeniable”? Maybe because the latter starts an argument, but the former finishes one. If you say “we hold these truth to be sacred and undeniable,” you’re laying the emphasis on the word “we”: We believe these things. On the other hand, if you say “we hold these truths to be self-evident,” you’re shifting the emphasis to the reader’s response, telling him, in effect, that if he doesn’t concur, he’s suffering from a cognitive deficiency. Recall, too, that the Declaration was written at the height of the Enlightenment — when congruence with human reason had begun to eclipse congruence with scripture as the ultimate gauge of truth. What is self-evident must be self-evident to all reasonable people. Those who fail to grasp what is self-evident, therefore, are being unreasonable. (Now you would think that the religious left, people who cast out scripture in favor of alleged “science” and “reason” when it comes to things like homosexuality and abortion would be defending this document and the fallen mindset that produced both it and the Constitution. Nope, it is the religious right that puts one hand on the Bible – and gets mad when Muslims like Barack HUSSEIN Obama and Keith Ellison refuse to do it! – and another on the deist freemason pagan Constitution! It is the religious right that is trying to coerce all children in government schools to pledge allegience to the flag, recite the Declaration of Independence, and wear those stupid flag pins! Go ahead little Christian boy. Put your flag pin on your lapel right beside your Christian cross – or Star of David if you are a Jew or angel Moroni if you are Mormon or … whatever. DO IT OR ELSE!)

The proposition that all men are created equal and endowed with inalienable rights has become, quite simply, the magnetic north of the modern world’s moral compass. (Not the Bible eh? Since he stated THE WORLD and not THE CHURCH, it is appropriate.) Which is not to say that our interpretation of it has remained fixed. The direct line between Genesis 1:26-27 and Jefferson’s “all men are created equal” compels us to take into account the tail end of the biblical passage: “So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.”

Jefferson wrote “all men.” But we now read the phrase to include women, and members of all ethnicities — that is, “all people.” (Being a Jew, Goldblatt knows that the original Hebrew word in Genesis 1:26-27 included women, just as he knows that the word “Adam” means “humankind” or “all humankind.” Of course, since Goldblatt does not honor the New Testament – still no reference to it! – he rejects Ephesians where Paul told us that the covenant was made with man, and that is why the Bible uses masculine language. Goldblatt accepts the ramblings of European Jews in the Middle Ages over the words of a Middle Eastern Jew who lived and wrote before the Romans destroyed the Jewish temple and religion.) The full personhood of human beings Jefferson himself might not have had in mind is apparent to us. (What I care about is the full personhood of Jesus Christ – fully God and fully man – which both Jefferson and Goldblatt have no interest in whatsoever.)

Taken in their totality, Jefferson’s self-evident truths are not actually self-evident truths, but represent a creed. They are unprovable and nondisprovable. You make the leap of faith, or you don’t. All in, or all out. (Maybe Jewish creeds and Jeffersonian enlightenment humanist deist creeds are not self – evident truths that are unprovable and nondisprovable, but Christianity’s creeds were proven by the empty tomb, Goldblatt. Any faith in any other than Jesus Christ is false misplaced faith, and that includes faith in the Constitution, the Bill of Rights, the declaration of independence, and this country that the state has been working hard to whip up ever since Woodrow Wilson forced the pledge of allegiance to THE FLAG – not God but the flag – on us to drag us into World War I Of course, our entering World War I led to World War II, and the rest is historythe United Nations, the federal reserve, the religious right and left, and Zionism going from being a secular socialist political movement preferred by atheists – and deists – to being a religious movement integrated into the theology of conservative Jews AND Christians.)

If you’re an American, you’re all in. For what is the United States Constitution, and the centuries of jurisprudence derived from it, except the laws designed to ensure the natural rights mentioned in the Declaration? (That is not true. I am only into what the Bible requires of me. I refuse to bow to Baal, sacrifice to Molech, burn incense to the queen of heaven, build groves to Diana, Daphne, Ashtoreth, etc. or do anything else that shows allegiance to the natural law doctrines of the false Mother Earth nature religion of the sham deist deity of either Thomas Jefferson or his deist – unitarian – freemason brethren. Goldblatt wants you to think so in order to replace your Christian beliefs with politico – cultural ones, and therefore you will not evangelize his people out of Judaism.)

The foundation of the United States is the article of faith that all men are created equal and endowed by their Creator with natural rights. It is our gospel to the world, the Necessary Religion of America, the creedal core to which all Americans — Jews, Christians, and Muslims; polytheists, monotheists, and atheists — say “Amen” each Fourth of July. (If you ever needed a payoff line proving everything that I just said to you, that was it. I will say “Amen” every Fourth of July and every other day of the year not in worship of the state or to the false demonic deity in whose name and for whose purpose it was founded, but rather to the God of Heaven who in the former times revealed Himself to us through His prophets but in these last days has revealed Himself to us by way of His Son Jesus Christ. No king but Jesus Christ. Every knee shall bow and every tongue shall confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, and all who did not believe in, serve, or live for Him will be cast into the lake of fire to burn for eternity! Please,  follow the Three Step Salvation plan so that you won’t go to the lake of fire!)

Now all of the preachers who get up on Sunday morning or who tape TV shows promoting the lie of the religious right that we can have the false gods of capitalism, nationalism, democracy, etc. beside the God of heaven, and that it somehow makes us better Christians for it … they are going to have to stand before that God of heaven one day and be held accountable for deceiving the masses. But my focus is not on them, my focus is on YOU. Why? Because YOU are going to have to stand before that same God too, and if you believe their deception and act on it you will be just as accountable as they are. It is said that the truth has to come out from a Jew who wants to use the truth to prevent you from converting Jews instead of from all of these prominent evangelical Christians who SHOULD be broadcasting the truth in order to keep you from burning from eternity in the lake of fire. This Jew who rejects Jesus Christ may actually have more love in his heart for you than do any of these apostate religious right (or religious left!) Christian preachers, pastors, scholars, and theologians that are either actively keeping the deception going, or are not speaking out against it.

Now this is not to say that Christians should be AGAINST the Constitution, the Declaration of Independence, America, etc. because doing so would be a violation of Romans 13. God calls subversion a sin and hates it. We are to submit to and respect those who God has placed over us for His own reason to fulfill His own sovereign purposes. However, there is a huge difference from being respectful of this nation and its rulers and laws and getting up in a pulpit claiming that America ever was some reflection of God’s holiness and that its leaders created it to carry out God’s purposes in the world. There is a huge difference between urging people to learn the laws of the land so that they will generally understand and be able to obey them, and vote for political candidates that will also generally support and obey those same laws (by the way, which not a single president, member of the Congressional leadership, or person holding an important mayorality or governorship has done in DECADES no matter which party they represent, and not that any leading preacher ever talks about it, especially when the criminal lawbreaker elected official in question IS A MEMBER OF THEIR PREFERRED PARTY!) and claiming that the Constitution and the Bill of Rights reflect the Bible as much as any George Whitefield, Charles Spurgeon, or John Edwards sermon. At any given time you can hear any number of preachers or Christian activists extolling the alleged Christian virtues in the Constitution, the Bill of Rights, or the Declaration of Independence. How often do these same people talk about “Method of Grace“? “Sinners in the Hand of an Angry God“? Against Baptismal Regeneration? You hear these guys talk about the founding fathers more than they talk about Calvin and Luther. Of course, because if they talked about Calvin and Luther more, they would have to repeat their saying “better to be ruled by a wise Muslim than a foolish Christian!” AND CAN YOU BELIEVE THAT THE ONLY TIME YOU HAVE EVER HEARD ANY OF THESE PEOPLE SAY THIS WAS TO TRY TO GET EVANGELICALS TO VOTE FOR CONGENITAL LIAR MITT ROMNEY?

People, this religious right (and left) nonsense is part and parcel of the strong delusion, the great apostasy, the falling away. Come out of this spiritual Babylon, and put away your idols and false gods of the syncretism of Christianity, political values, and whatever other religion that is willing to take on your values to advance its goal of winning more converts in the United States and thereby more power on the world scene. We have already seen Jews, Mormons, Roman Catholics,  New Agers, ATHEISTS, etc. do this in both parties. It is only a matter of time before Muslims get heavily involved with Republicans (as they already are with Democrats) and Hindus do the same.

The best – or worst – part of all this is how none of this is new or secret information. Mark Goldblatt did not win some award as an eminent scholar of history for uncovering the heretofore unknown secret of the deism (and unitarianism and freemasonry) of the founding fathers, and how their beliefs were reflected in the Constitution (which nowhere mentions God’s Name) or in the Declaration of Independence (which describes a deity and a relationship with his creation that ARE NOT THE SAME AS DEPICTED IN THE BIBLE!) After all, if he had, he wouldn’t be teaching at the Fashion Institute of Technology of the State University of New York. This is not meant to denigrate his academic achievements, which far exceed my own, but merely to point out that Goldblatt is not disseminating groundbreaking information here. The true beliefs of our founding fathers have long been known to history, and the leaders of the religious right and the conservative evangelical movements have been lying about it. Many of them do it directly, but most do it indirectly by remaining silent while the Chri$tian celebritie$ go on television and radio and proclaim their lies. To these people – and we all know who they are, they even include people whose sermons and devotionals I feature on this website, which is one of the reasons why I am getting away from that – 2 Thessalonians 2:10-12 applies. “And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.” Go ahead and read the verses that precede it as well. “Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders.

Does this apply to you? If so, I urge and beseech you on this Fourth of July and to those who read it afterwards, PLEASE COME OUT OF IT MY PEOPLE BEFORE YOU SHARE IN THE PLAGUES OF BABYLON! The people who push this nonsense – or who fail to oppose it! – are working for the anti – Christ. The truth of Jesus Christ is not in them! Evidence of this is that it is THE LEFT that – for their own purposes – is TELLING THE TRUTH about how the founding fathers were deists and unitarians (strangely they never mention freemasons) and that the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution do not represent Christianity in any historical, traditional, biblical, or theological sense. And when they do, the leaders of this apostate religious right movement come down upon them with daggers, swords, bullets, and razor sharp teeth calling them liars trying to deceive the good people of this “Christian nation” and lead them into spiritual darkness. Don’t these people realize that they are talking about themselves? Or is it that they realize it and do not care? These so – called preachers know that George Washington performed a freemason ritual – a libation of corn, oil, and wine – on the cornerstone of America’s capital building. They have read the notes and letters of these people where they express their true religious beliefs. They know that Benjamin Franklin, among many others – mocked not only the virgin birth and resurrection of Jesus Christ but also those who believe in it. (Which makes their willingness to attach themselves to the legacy of Martin Luther King, who also rejected those things, and claim that he led a Christian movement with a libertarian philosophy knowing full well that the guy was a radical leftist subversive much more believable.) Despite knowing the truth, they demand that every Christian under their charge show reverence for our nation’s founding leaders, documents, symbols, and traditions. The lie that George Washington chopped down a cherry tree has been replaced with a bigger one: that Washington and his crew were serving the God of the Bible and that when they fought a violent rebellion against England (in violation of Romans 13!) and founded a new nation they did it to serve God (a concept supported nowhere in the New Testament.)

So now that you know who the deceivers are, the question is … WILL YOU BE DECEIVED?

22 Responses to “If The Declaration of Independence Is A Deist Document Then Why Do Christians Respect It?”

  1. Kyle said

    Ah yes, let us also not forget all the hidden messages in our currency and in our physical infrastructure either. You see it is very easy for the sheeple to get duped into the whole, “God Bless the USA”. Now don’t get me wrong I am thankful for the freedoms, albeit eroding quickly, that this country has provided me. However, I am not easily fooled by the apparent occult history which our country was founded upon either. However to be honest we must look at both sides to fully appreciate the duplicitousness of both parties and their true agenda. They are merely two sides of the same coin playing off one another to divide us. We can claim that the left is correct on many issues including this one but the same could be said for the right. Each side picks its stated policy to A: garner its voting blocks B: Make sure each side has a “modicum” of truth just enough to remain viable and have a steady voting base. C: expound upon the differences of the other party to maintain the facade of us VS them to remain in control. D: Both sides behind closed doors agreeing on their ultimate plans thanks to us being fooled.

    Kyle

  2. John Kaniecki said

    Greetings,

    Three words- “Merciless indian savages”.

    That is enough for me to reject that the Decleration of Independence is a document as being Christian orientated.

    It all depends which side of the fence you sit in. Are you on top of the food chain or the bottom.

    When I buy my wife flowers she is delighted. How about the poor workers that endure long hours with low pay and have no protection from the pestisides that pick them.

    The constitution is a very good document. Yet if you were one of the “three fifths” of a person you would disagree. It all depends on which side of the fence you sit on.

    Love,

    John

  3. Devon said

    Political correctness aside John, a lot of the Natives were brutal and murderous…and that is the fault of their culture which was equally brutal……would you have a problem calling communists and nazis or homosexuals or abortionists savages??? I wouldn’t……and the Indian culture in many bands when the European arrived was cruel and beastiel…Indeed, the natives were happily slaughtering and enslaving one another long before we arrived….Only when we arrived, they changed their target..ever hear of the mayans those happy go lucky human sacrificing nuts?

    Not that all the Euro’s were wonderful, but compared to the natives at that time, we come off as the shining city on the hill….good for the Declaration of Independence calling it correctly!

    Truth is truth….regardless whether it comes from secular sources (DoI) or Sacred sources…

  4. John Kaniecki said

    Devon,

    I won’t make the argument that some faction of the idigenous people did things we would look down upon. Human sacrifice and slavery.

    Yet to call the North American Indians cruel and beastiel is a lie.

    It is a lie to say that the Europeans who came to the New Land were more advanced than the Natives. Furthermore as our civilization exists today the Native way of life is much superior.

    I think you got your history from watching to much John Wayne movies.

    I am of European decent and I can recognize the evil done by my pale brothers. In every continent they came with brutality and seized the land and resources.

    Which nation is the most hostile nation today? Just list the number of wars that have occurred in the past fifty years and see who was involved.

    Also which nation promotes war the most? Just look at the amount of money spent on weapons and the amount of money earned from selling weapons.

    Answer those two questions and then look in the mirror.

    Love,

    John

  5. John Kaniecki said

    Devon,

    Hi hope you are well.

    Now that I have more time let me propose to you the idea that the way Nazi Germany treated people they deemed inferior is very much how the United States treated the ‘indians’.

    The United States first of all murdered. Whether this was done by bullet, or bayonetting babies or by small pox soaked blankets, it was so effective we can call it genocide.

    Secondly the United States accomplished much of its thievery by lying. We know from the Bible the devil is the father of lies. You show me one treaty which the United States government honored. If you could find one I could find a hundred that they had broken. Are the idigenous people savages because they kept their word and trusted others to do so?

    And just so the Independent Conservative does not tune out, this breaking of treaties still goes on. For example when the native Americans stormed the Bureau of Indian Affairs they found documentation that the US government was allowing mineral companies to steal the natives.

    Furthermore there is the mining of the radioactive materials on the native’s lands. Instead of doing the extraction of the metals in a safe way they did it the economoically cheapest way and thus spoiling much land.

    As if genocide and stealing the land and robbing wasn’t enough the government had a campaign to destroy the native’s culture. When indian children were sent far away to boarding school they were forbidden to speak their native language. Of course these schools too didn’t teach them their culture.

    As regarding war it did exist among the inhabitants of North America. Yet it wasn’t war like Europeans waged it. Instead it had low casulties unlike the Europeans ways of mass destruction.

    I could go on and on. Christopher Columbus enslaved the indians to dig gold. He found it cheaper to let them die and enslave new ones so he did so. All the gold by the way went to decorate the churches in Spain.

    What about scalping, it was introduced by the French.

    Please direct me to some books backing your point of view. I’d advise you to start by reading “I Buried My Heart at Wounded Knee.”

    Just as Hitler and the Nazis called other inferior the offenders in the United States labled the indians. Both were full of lies.

    Love,

    John

  6. I have not read the full post or all these comments in this thread, but notice as usual John is crying at how bad he feels America is. Along with some other crying along those lines.

    I will only say this and leave it at that.

    Romans 3:10 (New American Standard Bible)

    10 as it is written,
    “THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE;

    I don’t care if it’s Tonto or Louis and Clark, none are righteous and we who know Christ in truth need to be focused on sharing the message of salvation by Grace through faith on Him alone.

    As for this nation I say Thank God Through Jesus Christ, I Can Proclaim Jesus is Lord Freely in America! And leave it there.

    If this government is an unreasonable master, I remain submissive and respectful towards it just the same.

    1 Peter 2:13-25 (New American Standard Bible)

    13 Submit yourselves for the Lord’s sake to every human institution, whether to a king as the one in authority, 14 or to governors as sent by him for the punishment of evildoers and the praise of those who do right. 15 For such is the will of God that by doing right you may silence the ignorance of foolish men. 16 Act as free men, and do not use your freedom as a covering for evil, but use it as bondslaves of God. 17 Honor all people, love the brotherhood, fear God, honor the king.
    18 Servants, be submissive to your masters with all respect, not only to those who are good and gentle, but also to those who are unreasonable. 19 For this finds favor, if for the sake of conscience toward God a person bears up under sorrows when suffering unjustly. 20 For what credit is there if, when you sin and are harshly treated, you endure it with patience? But if when you do what is right and suffer for it you patiently endure it, this finds favor with God.
    21 For you have been called for this purpose, since Christ also suffered for you, leaving you an example for you to follow in His steps, 22 WHO COMMITTED NO SIN, NOR WAS ANY DECEIT FOUND IN HIS MOUTH; 23 and while being reviled, He did not revile in return; while suffering, He uttered no threats, but kept entrusting Himself to Him who judges righteously; 24 and He Himself bore our sins in His body on the cross, so that we might die to sin and live to righteousness; for by His wounds you were healed. 25 For you were continually straying like sheep, but now you have returned to the Shepherd and Guardian of your souls.

    Not sure if I’ll say anything else on this post, regardless of comments made in response to this comment I’m making now or whatever else might be said in this thread, but may the Lord bless you all.

  7. Devon said

    John, honestly I have never been that big of a duke fan though I admire some of his political positions…lol…

    Secondly, you seem to have a very revised and liberal and dishonest view on American history and European history for that matter..it is easy to see you have been taught well by the left in these matters.

    I too am of Euro descent though born in North America..the home nations….

    Everything America does is bad…everything minorities do is good…Pretty silly and pretty simplistic view of history John…and classic in keeping with your admitted socialist views ….

    What I do recognize is this…What made America and Europe great in their past was there strong Christian roots…this is what made us superior to any Pagan Native culture..or any culture for that matter.

    BUT now…well..all bets are off…the way the West is heading, it won’t be long before we are the beasts…indeed, only a few cultures are more brutal then ours…Communist China and the Islamic world…but if we keep up on our Godlessness and wickedness…well then you will be right…we will be at the nadir of the human experience!

  8. John Kaniecki said

    IC,

    Hi hope you are well.

    I expected something along those lines from your comments. Let me elbaorate.

    First of all I believe in telling the truth and that lies are never benefical. For example the lie that our ship was attacked on the Gulf of Tonkin and so on.

    The truth of the matter is that the natives of America were much more sophisticated and advanced than the Europeans who came here.

    Why should you care. You are a man of darker skin than I. There was a time in this country when the general feeling was that a ‘black’ man couldn’t do the same things as a ‘white’ man. Sure blacks could be good athletes but not engineers or doctors. The ‘blacks’ after all had to learn their place.

    Just as I would defend the culture of Africa or the ability of a man of darker skin I will defend the advanced state of the natives here. To dismiss them as “cruel and bestial” is something I will not tolerate for it is a lie!

    One day all the nations of the world will come to the ‘red’ people and sit at their feet to learn their ways. European science has dominated the world and it is leading us to destruction. The great ungodliness of greed will be civilizations undoing.

    Jesus is the bond that should unite us.

    Love,

    John

  9. John, you know how our conversations go in this regard. I appeal to scripture, while you appeal to secular humanistic tenants. I’ve forgiven the dead I never knew, who never did anything to me and forgiven the living who might not like my skin tone. While you continue to have angst.

    And then you say:

    One day all the nations of the world will come to the ‘red’ people and sit at their feet to learn their ways.

    You know the question I would ask before you made such a statement, provide scripture to support this assertion please?

  10. John Kaniecki said

    IC,

    Hi hope you are well.

    Luke 14:11 “For whosoever exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.”

    I won’t deny my statement is not entirely based on scripture more rather the principles of how God works. I can get into this more later if you like.

    Devon,

    I have no problem with you associating me with the left. When I graduated from college I began an intense study in the Word of God. My study began with Bible alone. Then I started on church history. From there I began to read biographies and then history. I even got into psychology and philosophy but didn’t see much fruit in them.

    I learned that in America many lies are taught and passed as history. Though I cannot say this with one hundred percent surety I would venture to say that every nation in the world does so. That is one thing about the Bible is that it is blatantly honest. Take David for example his sin is there laid bare.

    I once began to read Josephus. He pretty much parralled the Bible in his history except that he twisted or excluded the bad parts. I promptly put the Josephus’ book on the shelf and stop reading it.

    Now you haven’t presented any facts or even books to refer to regarding the native American situation. I would look at them especially if they are in the library.

    And no you over simplify and distorting my views when I say that I criticize everything America does and I embrace everything the minorities do. That statement is not true.

    For the record I love the fact that despite the evil in America I can get up and proclaim the Word of God unmolested. (I said words to those effect in a sermon tonight.) I firmly believe in the Bill of Rights. Freedom of speech, freedom of religion, the right to bear arms, freedom of the press. I love the idea that the government is for the people. I love the idea that government officals should be servants of the people.

    It is when we get away from the American ideals is when I have to criticize and speak out against the evil.

    I could go on and get into many specifics but the blog is long enough. Why were the Black Panthers a threat to America? After all they carried around copies of the constitution. If they were of European descent and lived during the American Revolution they would have been embraced.

    Yet when you make the blanket statement that the first Europeans were superior to the natives I can only view you as very naive. Perhaps it was the way you were educated, I don’t know. I wonder if you actually gave the topic an indepth analysis. I could direct you to a dozen books that would expose the notion that you gave as a life. I ask now where did you get your facts?

    In conclusion one walks into the history section of the book store and which section is the smallest? Why the one dealing with the natives people.

    I wonder what your view of a ‘strong’ Christian nation is? To me I look at the Amish with much admiration though I disagree with their not using technology and non involvement with politics.

    Yes God made America great in many ways but to deny the reality of the history is a great offense.

    Love,

    John

  11. John,

    I won’t deny my statement is not entirely based on scripture more rather the principles of how God works. I can get into this more later if you like.

    Please don’t bother, we’ve been down that road before.

    I have to warn you, some of your views run dangerously close in allegiance with Liberation Theology.

    You don’t have SCRIPTURE to back up this stuff you’re saying well, because it’s not in full agreement with scripture and so you saying it’s how God works has no true foundation. Here is who will have all under their feet.

    1 Corinthians 15:25-28 (New American Standard Bible)

    25 For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet.

    26 The last enemy that will be abolished is death.

    27 For HE HAS PUT ALL THINGS IN SUBJECTION UNDER HIS FEET But when He says, “All things are put in subjection,” it is evident that He is excepted who put all things in subjection to Him.

    28 When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all in all.

    Those who don’t bow willingly in this life to the Lord will burn and be subject under condemnation, it does not matter if they stole somebody’s land while in this life or were the victim of theft. All without Christ, red, brown, black, white and otherwise will BURN. That includes any without Christ that died in the belly of a slave ship along with the enslaver that put them there. Same with anybody without Christ who saw someone else take possession of land they once had along with the one who took it.

    Luke 12:13-15 (New American Standard Bible)

    13 Someone in the crowd said to Him, “Teacher, tell my brother to divide the family inheritance with me.”

    14 But He said to him, “Man, who appointed Me a judge or arbitrator over you?”

    15 Then He said to them, “Beware, and be on your guard against every form of greed; for not even when one has an abundance does his life consist of his possessions.”

    John, you sound like the man who ran to Jesus asking Him to divide a family inheritance, that his brother obviously denied him. Jesus said then and says now, GET YOUR MIND OFF THE AFFAIRS OF THIS WORLD.

    To claim racial reprisal is of Eastern philosophies and pagan teachings such as “Karma”. These are not in scripture and unbiblical heresies. All will be put in subjection to Christ alone, to the glory of the Father. Only those who claim Christ will be granted the gift of eternal life. The only people scripture affirms will receive anything over the wicked are those who believe on Christ, in whom there is no racial distinction at all, Colossians 3:11.

  12. John Kaniecki said

    IC,

    Well thanks for the thoughts. I will meditate on that when I read the scriptures.

    The people talks a lot about oppression and God punishing the wicked. Further I am of the understanding the Christ will rule a thousand years. Revelation 20:6.

    Furthermore what is James 2:16 speaking about. We are to meet the needs of the people.

    Without a doubt God has taught us everything we need to know about salvation but what of the thousand year reign?

    Perhaps I am putting something there that isn’t but then again I may not. I certainly see much more scriptural evidence for my views than any notion that the United States is somehow God’s favored country on the Earth. I believe that God desires a world in which Love is shared and expressed by all it’s inhabitants. Of course one cannot truly know Love without a relationship of Jesus Christ. Today’s world is one in which the masses serve the idol of money and I know without a shadow of a doubt that anyone who puts something in front of God is doing evil and God is not pleased with that.

    Tell me this if you met a man on the street who had nothing to eat and no place to stay what would you do? Surely the command to Love thy neighbour would include feeding him, helping him find shelter, getting him the ability to earn a living. Surely these things are not important as teaching the gospel yet if you do not attempt to meet the man’s physical needs you would be much less successful in teaching him about Jesus.

    As regarding liberation theology I see a lot of talk in the Bible about oppression. I see no difference in helping people politically than as in the example of the homeless man. The unfortunate thing about revolution is that it turns violent and I wouldn’t advocate violence under ANY conditions.

    Like I said I do understand what you are saying to concentrate soley on the message of Jesus as Lord. Yet we must embrace the whole Word of God. Psalm 12:5 “For the oppression of the poor, for the sighing of the needy, now will I arise, saith the Lord, I will set him in safety from him that puffeth at him.” Ezekiel 18:18 “As for his father, because he cruelly oppressed, spoiled his brother by violence, and did that which is not good among his people, lo, even he shall die in iniquity.”

    As for Devon I am still waiting for you to produce the title of some book which validates your claims.

    Love,

    John

  13. John, you’re putting A WHOLE LOT THERE that you’ve never been told will happen during that 1000 year reign. To speak beyond what is written in Revelation 20 is to make your own personal effort to ADD to the book of prophesy. I don’t think I need to explain to you the dangers of such an action.

    Sure we help the poor as we can, primarily those of the faith and of course we’re going to help someone we know has a legitimate need. I never claimed America was God’s favored nation. God’s favored nation is the Israel that believes on His Son. This leaves all the talk about racial reprisal with zero foundation. As Christ said, it does not matter how much or even how little a man has, read Luke 12:13-15 again. It’s not about who has money, but rather who has Christ.

  14. Devon said

    Google the books John..there is a tonne of books that do not toe the dishonest liberal and revisionist history of America….go to National view online……you have been educated largely by the left…I was fortunate…I was able to see through their rubbish a loooonnngggg time ago…….I’m not sure what you are looking for…but pretty much of your anecdotes , many are disputed to this day…the idea of the Armed Forces of America giving blankets full of small pox is to this day very much disputed….that is held by the left but lets face it…since when is the left correct about anything!

    Try this patriotic American Native and Christian and expert on Persia

    http://www.badeagle.com

    Again though, the natives were in many cases an evil culture…and if you do know your Bible as you say you do, the Lord of Hosts had not problem with WIPING out cultures completely…even women and children…that is the Lord’s dealing with evil cultures….I have no problem with this….especially cultures like the Aztecs and Mayans…give them the chance to repent and if they don’t quit ripping hearts out of people for sacrifice, then either imprison them or waste them….

    And as far as looking down on inferior cultures, I am happy to do so….because the good thing about cultures, inferior ones, is that they can BE FIXED….and they can rise above us…

    A racist will just say those gypseys or blacks are useless…the Liberal (perhaps yourself) will just perpetuate their greivences and condescende them and blame what evil whitey’s have done to them …

    A Christian will stand up and say we have the Answer and that is the Cross….not useless trillions into the inner city that have hurt minorities or billions here into Canadian Native Bands and they are worse off then ever….But Christ and Christ alone…and no more useless left libertarian theology that will only serve to divide us and not look ahead…

    The fact is this…EVERY ethnic community on earth since Adam and Eve have been enslaved, abused, murdered by another ethnic community and it stinks…and that is never going to change….

    We either forgive one another or we continue down the drain to inevitable death and despair!

  15. John Kaniecki said

    Devon,

    Hi hope you are well.

    Thank you very much for that website. I will return to investigate it more when I have more time, though I did read three articles.

    Yet the site had nothing to do with history. You say there are tonnes of books. What I would like to know if you have read any? If so which ones? Or are you just a parrot spitting out what you’ve been told?

    I would like to remind you that we are living in the new covenant. Unfortunately a lot of so called Christians just don’t get it. Let’s run through the list of commandments. “Love thy neighbour. Love your enemy. Turn the other cheek. He who lives by the sword dies by the sword. Jesus said My kingdom is not of this world otherwise my followers would fight for me.”

    I think I’ll leave this entry with those thoughts in mind.

    Love,

    John

  16. John, I have a comment that I suspect went into the SPAM filter and Job will have to fish it out. So it will probably turn up here later as an earlier comment number. If it does not show up I’ll make the comment again. It’s short, but you should keep something very important in mind when you speak about what you feel God will do.

    Revelation 22:18-19 (New American Standard Bible)

    18 I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues which are written in this book;

    19 and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his part from the tree of life and from the holy city, which are written in this book.

    If it’s not stated, don’t claim you feel it will be. Revelation 20 is CLEAR about who will reign, Christ and saints, no more, not even if they were unbelievers who “suffered” at the hands of some other unbelievers. No matter how noble your intentions, for your own sake, avoid making claims not in the book of prophesy.

    And here is a write-up I think you really should review: Question: “What is Liberation Theology?”

  17. John Kaniecki said

    IC,

    Hi hope you are well.

    Indeed Christ will reign for a thousand years without a doubt. Furthermore his believers will reign with him.

    But there will be the unsaved on the Earth at that time. (I will show you scripture to prove that if you dispute that when I have more time.) One is Revelation 20:7 where some are deceived. Who is it that will be deceived? Certainly not the believers!!

    Yet Christ’s Kingdom will not appear magically though I believe His rule will be ushered in at a moment.

    Somehow we must prepare for to rule in Christ’s Kingdom. My desire for the Native Americans and all people is that they come to Jesus. Without that everything is meaningless.

    Yet all people’s possess gifts and we should use them for the benefit of mankind. For example technology is a gift from God. In the same way the Native Americans have gifts they can offer.

    Of course the key is that these peoples who are lost come to Jesus. Recall how Paul became all things to all men. He didn’t break God’s commandments but adopted to the habits and culture of the people.

    It is my second day at work and I must run.

    Love,

    John

  18. John, I never said there won’t be unbelievers around, Rev 20 is pretty obvious there will be enemies that will be destroyed, I said be careful not to assert things that are not in the book. I would hope for instruction and guidance on any matter we would go to the Lord and not men, given He is our Head.

    I hope you’re the guy who spends his time near the most fuel efficient cars for sale😉 .

  19. John Kaniecki said

    IC,

    I sell Saturns which have very good gas mileage.8)

    Please pray for a brother in our church Charlie who was diagnosed with cancer.

    Love,

    John

  20. Saturns, yea that’s a pretty good one to be with.

    Given they don’t use as heavy sales pressure tactics, it hopefully means they TELL LESS LIES. I was considering that aspect of your job and I’m sure Christians in car sales have to deal with pressure to be dishonest. Hopefully the folks at Saturn are better.

    Will pray for Charlie.

  21. John Kaniecki said

    IC,

    You are aware of Saturn’s policy of “no haggle – no hassle”. I wouldn’t tell a lie to sell a car. It’s remarkable how I got the job. I saw it advertised on Monster and then showed up. There was nobody else. The manager interviewed me and then the assistant manager and they offered me a job as a sales consultant.

    I started last Monday. On Monday and Tuesday they must have interviewed thirty people for the same job. They narrowed it down to ten and then they are going to narrow it down more. I got hired without the whole ordeal. Praise God!

    The man doing the training today for the ten people told me he was a Christian. I talked to him a little bit about it and will do so more tomorrow.

    Thanks for your prayers.

    Love,

    John

  22. rey said

    Personally I think you are just an absolute nut. If your “interpretation” (i.e. twisting) of Scripture brings you to the conclusion that God has not created men equal and given them inalienable rights, then please, move to Mexico. We don’t need lunatics like you in the U.S. If you don’t agree with the Declaration of Independence, GET OUT! Quit enjoying our freedom! Give us a refund for wasting any time or money on you, and leave.

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