Jesus Christ Is Lord

That every knee should bow and every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father!

On Needing That Anointing Christianity

Posted by Job on April 14, 2008

Three years ago, I was in dire straits. My family, my health (mental and physical) and my career were all very much at risk. Divorce and unemployment were tangible possibilities. My medication no longer controlled my asthma, but I had a strong emotional and physical dependency on it so I was consuming large quantities of it anyway. I was not addicted to the medication, but I was headed that way. But I WAS, however, addicted to pornography. Further, my kidneys were failing (drug overuse tends to cause that). And I was being continually tormented by terrifying dreams at night as well as fears and mental images during the day that I could not control. I was literally on the road to being one of the many poor homeless fellows with worsening mental and physical problems. And the worst part of it all was that I had no answers!

One of my coping mechanisms during this time: the music of one Anthony Williams Jr., also known as Tonex (among various other aliases). It was not so much that he was an extremely talented singer, musician, producer, and preacher, or that I personally identified with his lyrics and biography, though that was certainly true. It was that I was convinced that this fellow had a powerful anointing about him. I was certain that when I played his music, the power of the Holy Spirit was filling me and whatever space the music was playing in. Whenever the anger, rage, fear, hopelessness, depression, stress, etc. began to overcome me, I would pop in either “Out Tha Box” (disc 1 or 2) or “O2”. (Pronounced Toe – Nay was for “praise and worship time.”) I would contemplate the lyrics – although honestly not nearly so much as the music, ESPECIALLY the beats! – and pretty soon I would be speaking in tongues (then again maybe not), receiving all sorts of prophetic words from the Lord on how to take control of my situation (which were actually rather hit or miss) and pretty soon as a result of the powerful anointing felt recharged, renewed, rededicated pressed down shaken together running overflow ye are gods children of the most high. For a few hours, that is. But no matter, I had plenty of other similar CDs, as well as my array of pastors and teachers on TBN, the Word Network, and similar, to pick me up again. But Tonex’s music was “the heavy artillery” which I resorted to when things got really bad, in times of crisis and emergency. Why? Didn’t want to cheapen, degrade, or devalue “the anointing.” Let me just say that the Yolanda Adams intro of “Out Tha Box” where she introduces the fellow as “the most anointed man in this city, in this country, in this world!” did not offend me in the least. After all, it wasn’t THAT FAR OFF, so why quibble? And the fact that he had a woman whose lifestyle and career choices did not reflect Tonex’s holiness or hell doctrines to begin with? Hey, Tonex had a powerful anointing, so that didn’t matter.

And neither did the scandals, doctrinal errors, failed prophecies, etc. of any of the other people that I was following (or at least defending their works and their anointing): the Crouch family, TD Jakes (never a favorite of mine but I supported him because of so many of my fellow travelers did, so it was important to have UNITY), Paula White, Eddie Long, Creflo Dollar (who professes an anointing so great that regular folks are no allowed to touch him), Kenneth Copeland, Paul Morton, Juanita Bynum, Jesse DuPlantis (whose anointing stopped Hurricane Katrina from flooding his part of the city and redirected it to Paul Morton’s instead), Charles Capps (whose anointed reading of scripture revealed to him the fact that there were not one but TWO creations!), Shepherd’s Chapel, Pat Robertson (whose anointing predicted that such a hurricane would strike America because of abortion and gay rights), John Hagee (who predicted a war with Iran by 2007 with Jesus Christ coming back a few months after), Kenneth Hagin, Angie Ray, John Eckhardt, Keith Butler, Dr. Shine, Rod Parsley, Fred Price, Jamal Harrison – Bryant (I cheered the day that Harrison – Bryant announced that his Empowerment Temple was the first African Methodist Episcopal church to be prominently featured on TBN!) and so on. And other preachers that did not appear to me to have much anointing like Joel Osteen and Joyce Meyer I found encouraging and reassuring. So yes, I was exposed to constant anointings and reassurings during this troubled time.

Now the problems that I was going through were so severe that I missed quite a bit of work. Which was a good thing, because it gave me a chance to see two particularly anointed preachers around lunchtime on The Church Channel (although to tell you the truth I watched them plenty at work because I had downloaded the TBN viewer applet onto my desktop, and also watched them on The Word Network’s website, and there was also StreamingFaith.com!) Word of Faith preacher Andrew Wommack and Benny Hinn trainee Zachery Tims (the latter for entertainment, the former for doctrine). It so happened that on Wommack’s show, he made the case that what Jesus Christ did on the cross was finished and could not be added to by man. I did not believe it, because it contradicted my “faith plus works to justify you and maintain your salvation” holiness or hell doctrine that I had been brought up in and seemed perfectly logical to my human intellect, but HE HAD SCRIPTURES! Also, I had a lot of time and trust invested in this fellow (not to mention money, having bought several of his books). So, I believed, and that was the beginning of the end of my financial, family, emotional, and health problems. (The tithing, fasting, hit or miss prophesying, frequent church attendance followed by watching Christian television and listening to Christian radio, sowing seeds into anointed ministries, the emergency calls to the Pat Robertson and Paul Crouch prayer lines, the frequent emails to Jesse DuPlantis, the books, DVDs, tapes … well they did not actually work.)

Now not long before this, I had found out that T.D. Jakes was a oneness pentecostal. Again, though never a huge T.D. Jakes fan, it gave me pause, because LOTS of people were affiliated with the guy, including George W. and Jeb Bush, of whom I was HUGE FANS! Hey, the guy had an anointing and had done some mighty things, so God would straighten him out. But after believing in sola fide, faith alone, instead of faith plus works, well hey, doctrinal error now seemed to MATTER, and so did people who hung around them. So, that reduced my huge array of pastors and teachers that I was following, because LOTS of them were connected to Jakes by few degrees of separation! And yes, LOTS of folks were preaching the same thing that he did. But they had such powerful anointing and had done so many great things! Yes, but I had to follow my Trinitarian God rather than men, so that meant also rejecting the pastors who lacked the scruples required to reject the false doctrine purveyors, or to warn people against them. I knew that not all these pastors had been blessed with a great anointing, but the lack of a great anointing was no excuse for having a little principle and courage and doing what was right.

The result: this left me with a lot of spare time on my hands. Had to seek out other ministries. One was Bill Keller, whom I initially persecuted with frequent emails defending the prosperity doctrine that I still believed in. Prosperity, after all, was the sign of having an anointing! Keller failed to dissuade me, but radio preacher Bob George – who runs a call in show – did. Now I had read 1 Timothy 6 many a time, but never understood that IT SPECIFICALLY REJECTS THE PROSPERITY DOCTRINE until he explained it to me. Why did I listen to George and not Keller? Maybe it had something to do with George and the caller catching my attention just prior by pointing out that Fred Price claimed that Jesus Christ had to be born again. The caller wanted to know if it was OK to still listen to Price anyway on the account of the other great truths that Price gave. George acknowledged Price’s great oratorical skills, but stated that people who preach his doctrines had reprobate minds. Any truth that you can get from those that had reprobate minds can be gained elsewhere. So, crossing off the reprobate mind prosperity/Word of Faith folk – and those who would not separate from them – left still more time on my hands, and left me conflicted and confused about the legitimacy of my salvation. After all, I had learned of Christ by virtue of having been raised Pentecostal Holiness, and had believed on Christ’s work because a Word of Faith preacher had told me about it.

Result? TONEX TIME! If I ever needed a pick – me – up, it was now! After all, it had been awhile since I had spoken in tongues or heard a prophecy or revelation from God, so I needed to “get tightened up.” It had been a very long time, so long that I had actually misplaced the “Out Tha Box” concert DVD, so I put in “O2”, and started waiting for the anointing so that I could do the old “goose myself spiritually” thing and start speaking in tongues. (The ability to initiate speaking in tongues was a special gift that I had, a product of my anointing, that I had found quite useful many a time.) But something wasn’t right. I didn’t really FEEL it. And whereas before, my unknown tongues gift flowed freely and purely, even at times producing words that I was CERTAIN was Hebrew, this time it was choppy, broken, intermittent, and sounded rather like a clucking chicken. Also, I couldn’t really get into Tonex’s lyrics. Didn’t line up with what I was reading in the Bible at the time. Now my inability to speak in tongues anymore was really frightening me. It was my secret internal proof that I was actually saved! I guess I had no choice left other than to just believe Romans 10 and let it go.

And no more revelation, no more words from the Lord? Now I had actually been hearing so many revelations – it was a gift what can I say – that I had come to the conclusion that I didn’t really NEED to read my Bible anymore. I mean, the Bible was OK. So long as it was the King James Version. But it was for other, lesser, weaker Christians that lacked by strong faith and great anointing. I could go straight to God Himself and receive direct instructions. Whenever I needed to make a personal, family/marital, financial, spiritual decision, I would just pray, hear my revelation, and go with it. I also was up on future events and what was REALLY going on in the spirit realm, so that was great. But now, goodness, how was I going to make a decision? No choice but to trust God. If good happened? Thank you God. If bad happened, thank you for that too God. The Psalms and Proverbs said to have that attitude anyway. There are more Psalms than ones that promised old covenant Israelites health and wealth after all.

So, I began to throw away the books, CDs, DVDs, etc. that I had, shocked at all the money that I had spent on people that paid complete and total disregard to the basic information that could be found in any beginner’s theology book (which I found can be had very cheaply in the Christian bookstores, very often on clearance in the section obscured by all the best sellers) or even on some theology and apologetics websites. With those gone and plenty of time on my hands (I hate secular television because of the low quality of the writing), that created time for more books: church histories, Bible commentaries, novels, you name it. Not all of them were good. Unless, that is, they were being compared to the stuff that I had been throwing away. But there were a few things that I saved. I have not yet seen fit to get rid of my Derek Prince or Frank Hammond materials, probably because of my bias towards books and because they do not call themselves prophets or apostles. And I also kept my 3 Tonex CDs, even though I no longer felt motivated to buy his subsequent releases or replace the mysteriously vanished concert DVD.

That is, until the other day. I was not angry, depressed, fearful, or tormented by uncontrolled thoughts and images. Those problems are long gone. Following a tip in a devotional sent to me by Word of Faith preacher Keith Butler (whose prophecy that he would win a U.S. Senate seat fell far short) put the Book of Revelation on my Ipod and would listen to it through my headphones all night. (I wasn’t getting any sleep due to the nightmares anyway!) A few weeks later, I canceled my daily devotional from Butler upon reading him assert in it that all Christians should be able to speak in tongues. That idea that he passed on to me ended years of sleepless nights and torment, but hey, I have to follow God rather than man! Besides, Keith Butler is down with Kenneth Copeland anyway.

I just wanted to hear some uptempo music with a beat while driving around. So I got my long – neglected copy of “O2.” Man, I used to LOVE that album, the music was GENIUS! Intro … who cares. First track … boring. Second track … boring. Third track … well, I never really liked it to begin with. I know … I will just go straight to my favorite … track 15, the one that I would go to when I absolutely positively NEEDED to start speaking in tongues … TUMBLIN’! It was not as good as I remembered, but it was getting the job done. UNTIL I got to the point where Tonex states “Want the anointing gotta go through something.” This was after “Name it claim it.”

By this time, I was aware that the “anointing” that I had been so zealously seeking and pledging my loyalty to ministers based on their possessing it? Well first of all, “to anoint” means (roughly) “to choose.” Jesus Christ? Christ comes from “Christos” in Greek (though some transliterate it differently) which means “the Anointed One.” Or “the Chosen One.” So … the way that this Christian scene had been trading around this term, as if it was some special spiritual quality whose possession was so powerful and rare that it compensated for their false doctrines and practices, extramarital affairs, criminal acts, FAILED PROPHECIES, etc. was clearly exploiting people who were unaware of how the Bible actually generally used the word (there is only one usage that can justify how it is commonly used today), and such exploited people generally did not check the concordance that appears helpfully appended to the back of many Bibles to find out for themselves (as I did not).

Also, “anointing” was being used as a shorthand for “gifts and fruits of the Holy Spirit.” So why not just say “gifts and fruits of the Holy Spirit?” Because

1. the Bible makes it clear that gifts and fruits of the Holy Spirit cannot be bought with money, as Peter told Simon the magician in Acts. Which also means that it cannot be EARNED through works, which includes tithing, “sowing seed offerings”, etc.

2. gifts and fruits of the Holy Spirit are given to all believers according to the Holy Spirit’s discretion. So no Christian has special status based on which gifts he has. To the limited extent to which a Christian has over which gift he receives, he is to “earnestly seek the best gifts”, which are NOT the ones that the current Christian environment esteems.

3. Fruits of the Holy Spirit (i.e. charity) are more important than the gifts of the Holy Spirit. One of the things that I threw away was a DVD by Jesse DuPlantis on fruits of the Holy Spirit that CONTAINED NO ACTUAL INFORMATION AT ALL. Maturity, power, and effectiveness of service in a Christian come by virtue of the fruits, not the gifts, and particularly not the sign gifts.

4. There are no “special anointings”, “double and triple portions”, or special “spirits” (i.e. a warrior spirit or an Esther anointing or a Mary spirit). There is only the Holy Spirit. One Lord. One Faith. One Baptism. At the very most, you can claim to have similar gifts and fruits of the Holy Spirit as another believer, and even there one must have sound consistent Biblical and doctrinal basis – and exhibit evidence that can be confirmed by the witness of two or more believers in good standing – before claiming such.

5. The Holy Spirit is a permanent indwelling of every single believer. There are no “temporary anointings” which the people that dance out of their clothes, overturn chairs and pews, steamroll small children, and kick and elbow people trying to restrain them purport to need in order to receive their healing, their deliverance, their breakthrough, their blessing, or (as I was taught in the church that I grew up in) to provide evidence that your saying the sinner’s prayer “actually worked.” Yes, some people had to go to the altar call several times on successive weeks, say the sinner’s prayer each time, shout and dance each time, speak in tongues each time, etc. before the pastor declared their salvation experience to be legitimate.

6. the Bible declares that those who purport to possess the Holy Spirit must show evidence by continuously living a Godly lifestyle of humility and obedience, including preachers (and hip/hop gospel singers) whose sermon lyrics are reflected in their character and lives. Obviously possessing “anointings” is not encumbered with this same requirement.

7. The Holy Spirit is God, which brings discipline and order. Pastors with “great anointings”, however, tend to have great confusion not only in their church services, but also in their financial dealings and personal lives.

8. Related to 6. and the most important, it is LOVE that covers a multitude of transgressions (not to be mistaken for a continuous sinful lifestyle or willful rejection of Bible doctrines), not an “anointing.” Please note that what is often taken for “anointing” are things like skillful preaching ability, amazing church growth, tongues, casting out devils, healing, etc. are associated with the gifts of the Holy Spirit (and not the edifying gifts, or “the best gifts” that we should earnestly seek at that … people with the gift of giving or the gift of helps are rarely considered to have a powerful anointing and call on their lives!). Love, meanwhile, is a fruit of the Holy Spirit.

So, I removed Anthony “Tonex” Williams’ from my radio, and will probably throw it out in the garbage when I get home. Speaking of Tonex, for your viewing pleasure, he will illustrate what I have just told you – including information about my past that is 100% true – in the video clip below where he discusses the nature of “the anointing.” He states that one does not have to be a believer in Jesus Christ to understand it or benefit from it, and compares the anointing of Michael Jackson (for whom he is a paid music producer) to the anointing of Benny Hinn.

In closing, notice all of the things related to spiritual warfare, casting out demons, that I feature prominently. One of the reasons why I was so loyal to Tonex was that it was very effective to play his music while casting out evil spirits. Nevertheless, his music must be cast aside by me, because the video below makes explicit why we have to follow God rather than men.

Update from AndyB: He identified for me the source of all of this charismatic “anointing” confusion. It is a sole passage: 1 John 2:20-27, which employs the Greek word “chrisma”, which is sometimes translated as “unction.” (I suppose that when I would “goose myself” to speak in tongues, I was providing my own “unction”?) Here is the link to what the word ACTUALLY MEANS in the online BlueLetterBible Concordance. And here is AndyB’s context of the word: “And here I thought the anointing (”unction”) we received in the form of the Holy Spirit was the ability to discern God’s truth from the world’s cheap imitations. 1 John 2:20-21

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43 Responses to “On Needing That Anointing Christianity”

  1. Anyone who has not read all that is above should.

    Job, this is an awesome testimony of the work of God all through His Son, working in your life via the Holy Spirit.

    I must say, we have our similarities in background, but this (your content in this particular post) is one you experienced way more than me. While I rolled with people like Eddie Long, I can’t say I ever got into the full set of acts and products as much. I mean you had the stuff going literally around the clock in your waking hours, while I had it to a lesser frequency. Probably because most of my time with Eddie Long and others I was single and not settled. Really once I got married and was settled down, the Lord helped me see what was inside the Bible I used to hold old church bulletins. Yea I used to read it, but back then with the blinders of false doctrine guiding me rather than honestly reading the words on the pages. And thank God I didn’t marry any of the lady-friends I met at Club New Birth, because they all were way more into the false doctrines than my wife. Not that I split with them over doctrinal issues, because back then we all were running in the same delusion, but thank God it didn’t happen and the Lord allowed the woman who is my wife to be my wife and I met her after all of them, because it helped in getting beyond some things.

    By the time I got to Club New Birth, I was not doing what I felt was tongue talking any more. I was feeling I could hit the same “high” from the music and “high praise”.

    And while I personally was not into every name you mentioned as you were, I can say I know people who are and were. I know people who not only used to be on, but are still on that emotional roller coaster you road with that assembly of false teachers. Reading your story, I only pray that one day they find their way from those false doctrines as the Lord showed you out of them.

    And I know what you mean about now having a great shortage of gospel music you can listen to. I mean, even if Ellen Degeneres had a show where she only talked about things I might be OK with, while she remains a promoter of abomination I just can’t watch her. And likewise with the music, these songbirds for the pimps, I can try and play an old CD, but I have to pull it shortly after starting it up.

    Fred Hammond used to roll really tight with Eddie Long, so I can’t tell you the last time I listened to anything by him. Knowing he works in concert with that pulpit pimp and others and I used to watch Long spew a false doctrine and Hammond turn it into a song on the fly. So just from what I’ve witnessed I can’t easily listen to him.

    You know, for a little while Tonex had a blog post on his MySpace page that didn’t leave any doubt he “bats from both sides of the plate”, but he didn’t leave it up long once people started talking. His fans will always deny it, but I don’t think he had to actually tell anyone when you take a good look at some of his actions and associates.

  2. […] Comments Independent Conserva… on On Needing That Anointing Chri…Devon on Two Reasons Why Hillary Clinto…Marianne on Sex Sells Especially In The Ch…Independent […]

  3. AndyB said

    Thank you for this, Job! The pastor of the church I’m currently attending uses the “special anointing” jargon a LOT. It’s usually along the lines of “You need a ‘fresh’ touch! Yesterday’s anointing won’t help you with today’s adversaries”. The pastor’s “inner circle” claims that he has an “apostolic anointing”. Everyone talks about having an anointing for this, and an anointing for that. Tt’s enough to make my head spin, and makes me wonder if I missed the Charismatic equivalent of a Sharper Image catalog somewhere along the line!

    And here I thought the anointing (“unction”) we received in the form of the Holy Spirit was the ability to discern God’s truth from the world’s cheap imitations. 1 John 2:20-21

  4. Job said

    IC:

    Will get to your response in detail later. In the meantime, it was Frank Hammond, the Southern Baptist writer of Pigs In The Parlor, not Fred Hammond, the gospel singer and former member of Commissioned that is now a member of TD Jakes’ church.

  5. Job said

    AndyB:

    You know, I used several concordances on anointing, and the only verse that came ANYWHERE IN THE BALLPARK of what these people speak of is the one that you gave, 1 John 2:20-21. I did note that some Bibles do in fact translate that word as “anointing.” The Greek word appears to be “chrisma.” But you are right, the CONTEXT of chrisma isn’t a bunch of spiritual parlor tricks, but rather knowledge of the Word and Commandments of God! AndyB, I think you gotta start looking for another church! Here is a “church locator” for you 🙂 http://reformedchurches.info/

  6. Job, thanks for clarify which Fred Hammond. He’s a member of Jakes club now… (still wishing there was a shaking my head smiley…)

  7. gcmwatch said

    Wow, I am amending my bio to take out the Issachaar anointing line.

    Brother, truth is truly freeing.

  8. Job said

    gcmwatch:

    You are welcome. And your site has warned me against a lot of gospel music artists that I used to follow. As a matter of fact, I think that I am going to head over to your site to ask a question or two …

  9. Godlysoldier1 said

    All I can say is WOW…It was true revelation of 1 John 2:20 by the Holy Ghost that started me on my DELIVERANCE from the WOF, prosperity mess! For “me” that’s the “theme” scripture for deliverance from that movement!
    Every day more and more truth is being revealed as I see more of my friends and others coming from under the “strong delusion” and beginning to see this “other gospel” for exactly what it is…a gospel of “greed” and “self” that’s keeps one on the broad road leading to destruction!
    I thank God for the remnant that He’s pulling out of “religion” and back into “relationship” with Him through Christ Jesus, the truly “Anointed One.” Stay Blessed all!

  10. Marianne said

    the only real anointed one is Jesus….the rest… are guys on a paycheck.

    marianne
    http://heavenawaits.wordpress.com/

  11. Job said

    Marianne:

    That was a strong statement (as usual!) but I have no quarrel with it. Jesus is the one and only Christ (which means anointed) who gives His life for the sheep, all others are false shepherds that do not love the sheep, are leading them astray, and will run away rather than lay down their lives for them at the first sign of trouble.

  12. Marianne said

    I admit some “guys on a paycheck” seem to be sincere, and do some good, but they still get paid for it, when Jesus never charged anyone. Neither did the apostles. Many get paid too much, while their sheep struggle to pay bills. It is very disillusioning. We are in the last days, and we are pushing unbelievers away, instead of drawing them.

  13. There is plenty of scripture to support them getting a paycheck, that is not the issue. Although Paul advised his example be imitated and never wanted to burden saints, still even Paul wrote plenty to support the church meeting the needs of church elders with money. God had Paul to communicate that elders laboring in the gospel are worthy of a wage, yet the elder has to conduct themselves in a fashion that they are not being a burden and not getting into greed for money.

    The issue is when it gets into greed and bad doctrine. The greed and bad doctrine go hand in hand and even some who never take money offer bad doctrine.

  14. Marianne said

    the offering was for the entire church during a time of need…..NOT just for the elders…..everyone was expected to work for a living and support himself.

  15. Marianne, can you do me a big favor? Can you read 1 Corinthians 9 and tell me what you think of it?

    Also have a look at 1 Timothy 5 please.

    And give Galatians 6 a read too.

    Let’s speak about this based on scripture.

  16. Marianne said

    didn’t say he was demanding a salary…to preach the gospel is to reap the fruit….that is saved souls…that is the payment.:

    1Cr 9:7Who goeth a warfare any time at his own charges? who planteth a vineyard, and eateth not of the fruit thereof? or who feedeth a flock, and eateth not of the milk of the flock?
    1Cr 9:18What is my reward then? [Verily] that, when I preach the gospel, I may make the gospel of Christ without charge, that I abuse not my power in the gospel.

    Honor yes…it does not say double money…or take the tithes as salary…what is the reward for the preacher? money or lost souls?:
    1Ti 5:17¶Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine.
    1Ti 5:18For the scripture saith, Thou shalt not muzzle the ox that treadeth out the corn. And, The labourer [is] worthy of his reward.

    unlrelated to salaries…..you sow the word of god…you reap souls…..:
    Gal 6:7Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.

  17. Marianne said

    didn’t say he was demanding a salary…to preach the gospel is to reap the fruit….that is saved souls…that is the payment.:

    1Cr 9:7Who goeth a warfare any time at his own charges? who planteth a vineyard, and eateth not of the fruit thereof? or who feedeth a flock, and eateth not of the milk of the flock?
    1Cr 9:18What is my reward then? [Verily] that, when I preach the gospel, I may make the gospel of Christ without charge, that I abuse not my power in the gospel.

    Honor yes…it does not say double money…or take the tithes as salary…what is the reward for the preacher? money or lost souls?:
    1Ti 5:17¶Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine.
    1Ti 5:18For the scripture saith, Thou shalt not muzzle the ox that treadeth out the corn. And, The labourer [is] worthy of his reward.

    unrelated to salaries…..you sow the word of god…you reap souls…..:
    Gal 6:7Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.

  18. Marianne – We agree nobody should be greedy for money, pastors included. However, the scriptures are clear that the good elders are worthy of DOUBLE HONOR. So they can collect a salary. The saints should be more than happy and willing to ensure the good laborers in the gospel in church leadership are taken care of if that person is full time (that’s day and night) in the gospel and not working in any other line of work.

    There is no such thing as “tithes” in the church. But that’s another topic.

  19. Marianne said

    I respect your opinion. I just do not agree with the interpretation.

    how is honor translated as money? another meaning for honor is reverence and respect…..were the early apostles paid? most of them worked for a living….paul made tents…the others fished, and said that everyone had to work, and support himself, or they had to leave…

    even now, there are many who work as volunteers and no one offers to pay them, yet they still work…..salary is reserved for a select few….who do not necessarily work full time – 24-7, sowing the word on new grounds.

    this could also be written:
    1Ti 5:18For the scripture saith, Thou shalt not silence the ox that treadeth out the corn. (ie let the man preach) And, The labourer [is] worthy of his fruit, naturally resulting from toils and endeavours, rewards which God bestows, or will bestow, upon good deeds and endeavours

    since what he sows is the word, which is spirit, and not physical seed, what he reaps is to be spirit also…..not materialistic/physical in nature….money is physical….

    to be busy 24/7, someone must be sowing the spirit seed of the Word all that time….no one does that..

    a farmer does not stand in one spot all day and sow all his seed into a one foot square area….he goes out into the entire field and sows……

    most ministers do not do this…they stay in one spot, and sow the same seed..over and over, to people who already have the seed…..

    once someone is saved, and has read the bible once, studying it,they should no longer need a pastor….they are mature and ready, and equipped to go out and sow their own spiritual seed, to reap their rewards (souls of their own). this is how the early church grew so quickly….

    remember the apostles were most likely only in their 20s…they were ready after a few years of training….

    nowadays….church members vegetate in the pews for 30 years in one spot…..as one pastor tells them the same thing over and over.

    this would more appropriately apply to an evangelist….who is supposed to go out to new fields constantly, and sow the word..to bring in souls…..his reward is spiritual, not physical….

    no one follows the spirit of the bible ……everyone wants to get paid for what they do….so since they have their reward on earth, they forfeit a reward in heaven……

  20. Marianne, it is not a point of whether an apostle took a salary, but rather the question is, did God have them advise that church elders should be provided a salary? The answer is a clear and unequivocal YES.

    How can honor mean money? What does it mean in 1 Timothy 5 for widows? Then immediately following the recommendation to take care of widows is the instruction for elders noting double honor. So you claiming scripture does not provide an elder a salary has zero foundation. You’re dancing around clear scripture for your own interpretation. Are you bitter about someone abusing your financially in the past? Bitter to the point you don’t want to respect the Word of God in how to care for good church elders?

    once someone is saved, and has read the bible once, studying it,they should no longer need a pastor….they are mature and ready, and equipped to go out and sow their own spiritual seed, to reap their rewards (souls of their own). this is how the early church grew so quickly….

    I don’t see in scripture or church history people forsaking an elder after they read the Bible once, for those who had a full canon.

    1 Thessalonians 5:12-13 (King James Version)

    12 And we beseech you, brethren, to know them which labour among you, and are over you in the Lord, and admonish you;

    13 And to esteem them very highly in love for their work’s sake. And be at peace among yourselves.

    Now please show us where God had Paul to admonish saints that they needed to forsake church elders after getting some scripture under their belt?

    Also regarding salary and how clear scripture is regarding elders being allowed one.

    NASB used for translational clarity and emphasis added to one verse in particular:
    1 Corinthians 9:14-18 (New American Standard Bible)

    14 So also the Lord directed those who proclaim the gospel to get their living from the gospel.

    15 But I have used none of these things And I am not writing these things so that it will be done so in my case; for it would be better for me to die than have any man make my boast an empty one.

    16 For if I preach the gospel, I have nothing to boast of, for I am under compulsion; for woe is me if I do not preach the gospel.

    17 For if I do this voluntarily, I have a reward; but if against my will, I have a stewardship entrusted to me.

    18 What then is my reward? That, when I preach the gospel, I may offer the gospel without charge, so as not to make full use of my right in the gospel.

    Paul makes it clear the THE LORD ORDAINED that laborers in the gospel are able to make a living from it. It was a liberty he did not exercise himself and he boasted how he never charged to preach and never wanted that boasting made empty by taking a salary. He says clearly “so as not to make full use of my right in the gospel”. He has every right to accept money, but he refuses. A pastor today has every right to accept a salary and the Lord ordained it so.

    When Jesus sent the 70 He said to them:

    Luke 10:7 (New American Standard Bible)

    7 “Stay in that house, eating and drinking what they give you; for the laborer is worthy of his wages. Do not keep moving from house to house.

    This is not to say that a pastor is to have a cover charge for entry to hear them preach, but that those who labor as pastors are to be allowed care by the saints. If someone is preaching for the sake of making money, that is wrong, however someone preaching is worthy of wages and allowed to make a living off labor in the ministry. Also, I’m not saying they have a right to fix fees for the sake of personal profit on CDs, tapes and other materials to try and continually make income off a sermon with a fixed fee for access to it, but scripture does make clear that some form of support is to be provided to those who labor in the gospel. It’s not a right to be abused in efforts to become wealthy, however they do have the right to a wage.

    What translation of scripture did you use for your citation of 1 Timothy 5:18 in your prior comment? Most every translation says “wages” or “hire” or “pay”, but you’ve stated “fruit” and attempted to separate the fact that pastors are worthy to receive wages.

    If I didn’t know any better, I’d think you were deliberately trying to take away from the Word of God.

    1 Timothy 5:18 uses the Greek term misthos. .

    And now I see what you’ve gone and done Marianne. You don’t like the translation, so you attempted to avoid the truth and insert a translation for the term that suits your opinion, but here’s the full definition from Strong’s Lexicon.

    1) dues paid for work

    a) wages, hire

    2) reward: used of the fruit naturally resulting from toils and endeavours

    a) in both senses, rewards and punishments

    b) of the rewards which God bestows, or will bestow, upon good deeds and endeavours

    c) of punishments

    Now the context of the term is clearly wages, given the prior statements regarding care for widows. But Marianne, what bitterness causes you to try and avoid the truth of the Word of God in caring for good elders? Why do you deny they are worthy of their wages?

  21. Marianne, I see you did preface your own translation by saying

    this could also be written:…

    No, it could not also have been written with any use of the term that might personally suit you. While many terms in Greek have multiple functions, the context of the term leads to a specific translation for English. In the case of 1 Timothy 5:18 it is clear.

    1 Timothy 5:18 (New American Standard Bible)

    18 For the Scripture says, “YOU SHALL NOT MUZZLE THE OX WHILE HE IS THRESHING,” and “The laborer is worthy of his wages.”

    So, do we go with the scholarly translation or one Marianne has attempted to craft herself? I’ll stick with the scholars on this one.

    The laborer is worthy of his wages.

  22. Marianne said

    short answer first.

    muzzle means silence or control the mouth.

    the translation “wages” is the least used translation for this word……general rewards is the most used.

    remember the scholars were on salaries…they were biased.

    in farming, you do not pay the ox.

  23. Marianne said

    nope

    Jesus and the apostles accepted free will offerings at times, but there is no indication that they required a salary.

    “How can honor mean money? What does it mean in 1 Timothy 5 for widows? Then immediately following the recommendation to take care of widows is the instruction for elders noting double honor.”

    ****It also says that the church should not be burdened with the widows of others, and that widows should not be let into the church before the age of 60. I am sure any money was for the widows, not the elders.

    ****however, for those widows that are “acceptable” it says to honor them….that means respect them…..and to help them….
    you act like only certain people should be elders. All mature believers are elders.

    “I don’t see in scripture or church history people forsaking an elder after they read the Bible once, for those who had a full canon.”

    ****elders need to grow up and take care of themselves, and set a good example….they deserve honor…not paychecks.

    “1 Thessalonians 5:12-13 (King James Version)
    12 And we beseech you, brethren, to know them which labour among you, and are over you in the Lord, and admonish you;”

    ****this was written to new converts….once a person is mature and ministering themselves….they are an elder too.

    “1 Corinthians 9:14-18 (New American Standard Bible)14 So also the Lord directed those who proclaim the gospel to get their living from the gospel.”

    ****this means that you should practice what you preach…..live what you say.

    “18 What then is my reward? That, when I preach the gospel, I may offer the gospel without charge, so as not to make full use of my right in the gospel.”

    ***Paul did not require a salary himself. He admits it. He most likely accepted offerings only. But todays’ ministers think themselves more worthy than Paul, I guess.

    “What translation of scripture did you use for your citation of 1 Timothy 5:18 in your prior comment? Most every translation says “wages” or “hire” or “pay”, but you’ve stated “fruit” and attempted to separate the fact that pastors are worthy to receive wages.”

    1) dues paid for work
    a) wages, hire
    2) reward: used of the fruit naturally resulting from toils and endeavours
    a) in both senses, rewards and punishments
    b) of the rewards which God bestows, or will bestow, upon good deeds and endeavours
    c) of punishments

    ***you forgot this part:

    Authorized Version (KJV) Translation Count — Total: 29
    AV — reward 24, hire 3, wages 2

    “If I didn’t know any better, I’d think you were deliberately trying to take away from the Word of God.”

    *****no, you are using the least used interpretation for the word misthos. not me. wages is the least used translation and use for this word..it usually means general rewards….as above.

    “Now the context of the term is clearly wages, given the prior statements regarding care for widows.”

    ****you know very well that ministers do not spend all their money on widows. Instead, they expect them to pay tithes, like everyone else…. to honor a widow does not mean to pay them a salary.

    ***I am not bitter. I am tired of people making merchandise out of the gospel. Fine, if you get paid, then you have your “reward,” translated “wages.”

    ****Your interpretation of the rewards for ministry is physical, not spiritual.

  24. Charles D. said

    IC this is probably the first time that we were in “word for word” agreement! Most times, theres going to be at least a few words or maybe a sentence (that’s what keeps us fresh for spicy for debate) however, this time you are dead on, mister!

    What’s amazing to me is your versatility with the ox parable, and parable is exactly what it is with ox being symbolic. You and I have broched this subject way back when and I would have stood silent had you done then what you’ve done now. Keep it up.

    Chaz

  25. Marianne said

    1Cr 9:14 Even so hath the Lord ordained that they which preach the gospel should live of (ek) the gospel.

    ****it does not say “make a living”….it says “they should live of the gospel”

    AV — of 366, from 181, out of 162, by 55, on 34, with 25, misc 98

    ek = greek = a primary preposition denoting origin (the point whence action or motion proceeds), from, out (of place, time, or cause; literal or figurative

    it means the origin of his life should be the gospel.

  26. Marianne,

    remember the scholars were on salaries…they were biased.

    You are totally using eisegesis. Your view requires we toss out the translation of anything you feel should be changed. And you’ve got no grounds at all in scripture, so you seek to change what is in scripture.

    As with your view of women assuming roles in church leadership over men. Scripture says no, you say OK. Because you have your own biases and that’s all we are seeing displayed. Because you again refuse to accept what is written in the Word of God.

    Jesus and the apostles accepted free will offerings at times, but there is no indication that they required a salary.

    Correct and they also said a laborer is worthy of his wages. Meaning you should happily be willing to support good elders receiving a wage. It’s not something they should seek out of demand, but something you should already have established for them. They should not have to request it, it should already be there at their discretion to accept or refuse, based on their need.

    You game on 1 Timothy 5 and you deny the full truth of 1 Timothy 3.

    1 Thessalonians 5:12-13 is written to the church of the Thessalonians. No where in that letter does it say to new converts only.

    1 Corinthians 9:14-18 totally supports an elder making a living from their labor in ministry.

    Marianne, you continually deny truth written in the Word of God and discussion with you is becoming rather ridiculous. I will leave you to your ungodly eisegesis and your horrific translations of Biblical Greek. You’re even claiming elders had widows and everyone paying “tithes”. Again displaying your lack of knowledge of church history and your wrongful dividing of scripture. You’re a hypocrite at best, attempting to exercise liberties for women that are NOT in scripture, while seeking to deny liberties to elders that were ordained to them by the Lord.

    I will waste no more keystrokes with you. May the Lord help you.

    Charles, there are a lot of stiff necked people in this world, some of them happen to be women and Marianne happens to be one of them. Yet another trying to slap the secular Womens Liberation Movement on the Word of God. I can’t spend my time continually on them. I’ve got to share the Word of God and move on. If they want to deny the truth that women are not to be elders in the church over men and they want to deny that good elders are worthy of wages, they are now accountable for the truth they’ve been informed of and my work is done.

    God had Peter tell us the truth about Marianne and those like her.

    2 Peter 3:14-16 (New American Standard Bible)

    14 Therefore, beloved, since you look for these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, spotless and blameless,

    15 and regard the patience of our Lord as salvation; just as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given him, wrote to you,

    16 as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which the untaught and unstable distort, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction.

    Lord willing, she will come to know the whole truth one day.

  27. For those desiring the truth of 1 Timothy 5:18’s translation to English, please see this full in context word for word Lexicon entry for 1 Timothy 5:18.

    While I and others sound an alarm against abuse and bad doctrine, we certainly do not desire to take wages from good elders. God has ordained it and we are good with it.

    Beware those who cause dissension and divisions over what is clearly written in the word of God, Romans 16:17.

  28. Marianne said

    you say
    “As with your view of women assuming roles in church leadership over men. Scripture says no, you say OK”

    ????????.this discussion does not concern women leadership over men….I did not mention it. You did.

    I said the interpretation is that people should live as they preach. That is legitimate, and that the “reward,” that you call wages, is meant to be spiritual, not physical, as evidenced by the lives of the first apostles and Jesus himself.

    I also said that neither Jesus nor the apostles took a salary. That is also true, so they are the best example of what the scripture means. That does not make me a hypocrite, because I would want leadership to live like they did.

    you say
    “If they want to deny the truth that women are not to be elders in the church over men..”

    Now we are getting to the real issue…..you do not feel my point is worthwhile because I said ALL mature believers are elders…..that includes women.

    To me, an elder is a mature believer. To you, it is someone who deserves to get paid, and only men deserve to get paid…..women are free.. they do not deserve anything…they have to work for nothing in menial tasks.

    I am not a women’s libber….but I AM for fairness…..you are discriminating against women, and think I have no business having a brain, or expressing a legitimate opinion because I am female……I am saying both Men and Women mature believers are elders and deserve honor (ie respect)..you do not like that……

    the money is a sensitive issue with you…..so I guess you must make a lot of money doing something in the church.

    also
    modern preachers do expect tithes out of widows and the poor…….they are even told they are poor because they do not tithe enough…that is a fact…

  29. Charles said

    Regarding: ““reward,” that you call wages, is meant to be spiritual, not physical, as evidenced by the lives of the first apostles and Jesus himself.”

    I seem to recall scripture speaking of Christ getting a coin from the mouth of a fish to pay for among other things, taxes. That is physical and Chrsit recognized that the expectation of he/them who received the coin was physical and not spiritual.

    Christ also said “render unto Ceasar the things that are Ceasars’ and to God what is God. Christ did not run the moneychangers away from the porch of the temple because of the money, but, because they were cheating those who had traveled a great distance and could not do any better than to be gauged.

    *Judas kept the purse for the apostles working capital
    *Christ asked first how much money was there before the fish/bread feeding mircle.
    *Paul said if a man didn’t work neither should he eat
    *Money was recognized as a necessity in both the old and new testament for everything from buying burial plots to food to staples.

    Again, IC you are so on the mark.

    Charles

  30. Marianne said

    charles,

    you are ignorant. Just let IC and I discuss this.

    getting one coin out of a fish’s mouth does not equal full time salaries for Jesus and the apostles. They only took free will offerings.

    no salaries are discussed.

  31. Charles D. said

    Marianne

    Pardonome Monsur! From where I sit, it is IC whose doing all of the discussion and you’re just taking an awful nasty butt beating! Just look at his response to your sophomoric gibberish. Seems you know as much about the Bible as you do brain surgery. In fact, IC is better at that than you are; because he literally scanned your “bird brain” and he didn’t stop there. He said he would no longer waste his time, unless and until you at least read your Bible and get someone to explain what has been read.

    Far be it from me to butt in on an on-going discussion, however, that is not the case here. Your problem is that you lead with your spiritual chin, then, IC commence to whip you every place except under your over-sized Nikes. Recognizing that you’re a big girl, I will just butt out, (a mighty big girl at that). \

    I sincerely apologize for mistakenly thinking that you needed relief from the shallacking that you were enduring. I’m making a note to myself now; to shut-up when you have a “DISCUSSION” on-going, especially, if it appear that you’re getting your spiritual clock clean! There, that should do it!

    Charles of the firm of
    IChum Dewitt and Howell

    TeeHeeHee 😉 you’re funny (oh yeah, and Big

  32. Charles D. said

    Oh! BTW it is not the fact that Christ took a coin from the mouth of the fish – it is the why! Again, you’ve spoken with your mouth before engaging your brain. 8)

  33. Marianne said

    charles

    thank you for shutting up.
    sarcasm is not a sign of intelligence.

    your French is bad. a woman is not a monsieur.

    my case is justified and backed up by scripture and logic as well. perhaps you do not know scripture when you see it.

    have a good evening

  34. Charles I’m done, but you know, since we’re all supposed to be elders and all without a pastor after we clear through the Bible once, I’m trying to rip Ephesians 4:11 and Hebrews 13:17 from my Bible but the pages just won’t come out. I’ll need you to come by and help me yank them out.

    And you know, since we’re elders and all, I guess to be like Jesus and the apostles, I’ll be selling all I have tonight and living homeless like Jesus and the apostles. Sorry Charles, no more snacks 😦 .

    I’m sure she who made the suggestion that church elders not take a salary and live like Christ and the Apostles and reinterpreted 1 Timothy 5:18, to claim it has nothing to do with wages, I’m sure she speaks on this blog from a public Internet connection. I’m sure she’s not a hypocrite in a home of her own while claiming others should live just like Jesus and the Apostles.

    😀

    (Yea Charles, when I say I’m done with dialog with someone, it means done.)

  35. Marianne said

    Jesus and the apostles were mainly self supporting. So am I.

    I also did give up everything to follow Christ, and He has been my source for 35 years. He provides.

    I have never charged anyone for ministering to them…and churches, homeless shelters, and other ministries have many, many hours of my free time.

    I see no salary here….
    Eph 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

    It says obey, not pay…….
    Hbr 13:17 Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that [is] unprofitable for you.

    maybe someday you will understand that life in the spirit is reward (wages) enough

  36. Well Charles we know 2 things:

    1) Jesus and the Apostles were in a perpetual state of homelessness (Matthew 8:20 and 1 Corinthians 4:11) and those claiming they gave up all these days are not.

    2) Neither I or the hypocrite are pastors.

  37. Marianne said

    I do not collect tithes to pay for my house. I had to go to work in the secular world to pay for it, just like Peter and James had to fish, and Paul had to make tents.

    They did not collect a salary from those they ministered to.

    So you criticize Jesus for being homeless?

    if you fleece the flock for your own gain, what would you call it?

  38. Charles D. said

    “a woman is not a monsieur.” Does that mean that you get my point?
    AND! As far as intelligence goes, it is only you that trys to sell thid Bio-chem is it? From Devry. Come now. You are extraordinarily “mentally sheltered”

    TeeHeeHee

  39. Charles D. said

    “[I have never charged anyone for ministering to them…] and churches, homeless shelters, and other ministries have many, many hours of my free time.”

    Only because they have consumer protection laws and you’d be jailed. Exactly what do you think you have to offer some seeker of the word? Because you sure don’t know any!

    IC I am a slow learner but I have two glimers of hope. 1) you always back up what you say with scripture. and 2) I’m slow but not nearly as slow as the biochemicalnurses’aide from Devry Theological Institute for the Insane.

    I bet the fact that you no longer dialogue with this person, I bet that will not stop her/him. I further bet that within one hour, there will be further comments from you know who; a la Steffelynn.

    Have a blessed one brother.

    Charles

  40. […] Posted by Job on July 11, 2008 This is very similar to my On Needing That Anointing Christianity […]

  41. Jon said

    What is all this talk of Dr.Shine and DeeDee being false teacher’s?? can someone please fill me in,

  42. If a man claims to represent God you should be able to ask any question, what brought you to jesus, how much do you have in the bank?, i would rather not say, or non of your buisness means they are snake oil salesmen.

  43. Why not put yourself to the test? empty you bank account and just give it or throw it away, most establishment priests live in palaces, it will be the hardest thing you have ever experienced as your ego makes all kind of excuses for having and keeping all that money or gold.

    I expect a man claiming to represent God to be able to answer any question no matter how personal, nothing hidden in any part of there life, if they cannot do that then they cant teach me anything.

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