Jesus Christ Is Lord

That every knee should bow and every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father!

Can Women Serve As Pastors?

Posted by Job on March 15, 2008

Why Women Cannot Be Preachers

Juanita Bynum, Paula White, Medina Pullings, etc. fans take note.

76 Responses to “Can Women Serve As Pastors?”

  1. I AM REALLY CONVINCED THAT PEOPLE NO LONGER FEAR GOD. JUST BECAUSE JUANITA BYNUM AND OTHER MEN’S AND WOMEN OF GOD HAVE WENT THROUGH SATANIC ATTACK DOES NOT MAKE THEM FALSE PROPHETS AND PROPHTESS. PEOPLE NEED TO BE MINDFUL OF WHAT THE SAY, PUBLISH, AND WRITE ABOUT GOD’S CHOSEN VESSELS. SURE WE ALL MAKE MISTAKES BUT TO WHO’S ELECT DO WE CHARGE OUR MISTAKES (GOD). WHO ARE WE TO BE JUDGEMENTAL AND CRITICAL. THERE ARE NO LITTLE I’S AND BIG U’S IN THE KINGDOM OF GOD SIN IS SIN. PEOPLE NEED TO BE CAREFUL OF HOW THEY VIEW GOD’S ELECT. WE ARE GOING BACK TO THE DAYS TO WHERE GOD’S JUDGEMENT IS GOING TO BEGIN TO HIT AS IN THE OLD TESTIMENT. SWIFTLY. I’M REMINDED OF THE SCRIPTURE THAT SAYS TOUCH NOT MINE ANNOINTED AND DO MY PROPHETS (PROPHTESS) NO HARM. AND I AM ALSO REMINDED OF THE SCRIPTURE TOUCH NOT, TASTE NOT, HANDLE NOT. SO BEFORE YOU DIFFERENT INDIVIDULES ON THE OUTSIDE LOOKING IN BEGIN TO DEVELOPE A CRITICAL JUDGEMENTAL SPIRIT ABOUT GOD’S CHOSEN, CALLED, ELECTED, QUALIFIED, AND JUSTIFIED OFFICIALS I WOULD PICK UP HIS WORD AND SEE WHAT IT SAYS ABOUT HIS CHOSEN PEOPLE. GOD SAID THAT HE WOULD KILL FOR US HIS ANNOINTED MALE OR FEMALE. SO YES WOMEN AND MEN OF GOD ARE TAKING THEIR STAND IN THE KINGDOM OF GOD AND AINT YES I SAID AINT. AINT NOBODY MAD BUT THE DEVIL. CAUSE EVERY ROUND GOES HIGHER AND HIGHER.

    • Servant of the Lord said

      “Touch Not My Anointed”?…..One first has to be ANOINTED, CALLED or CHOSEN, in order for
      (1 Chronicles 16:22), to apply! According to (1 John 4:1), the Word says, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world. You yourself, may want to seek the Word of God further regarding the matter, that you may come to a more clear revelation and understanding pertaining to the knowledge of God….In Christ, Amen!

  2. DAWN WOOTEN – You are untrained in scripture and being misled by false teaching.

    See:
    “Touch Not My Anointed”..The command of God or the cries of the misled??

    You quote statements you’ve heard repeated, but your mishandling of scripture reflects you are under bad teaching.

    You should read 1 Corinthians 5 and learn that the people you are defending are worthy of excommunication by saints.

    Satan is not “mad” about your comment, he’s pretty happy, because he’s the one acting like an angle of light and who false teachers really serve in their lust for money and spewing of heresies, 2 Corinthians 11:13-15.

  3. Marianne said

    The “touch not my anointed” verse, if you look at it in context, was referring to the entire nation of Israel, and directed a warning to its enemies to leave Israel alone.

    It had nothing to do with protecting self appointed prophets who think they deserve our money.

    today, it could be interpreted “touch not the sheep, and leave their money alone.”

    marianne
    http://heavenawaits.wordpress.com/

  4. Hi Marianne –

    The “touch not my anointed” verse, if you look at it in context, was referring to the entire nation of Israel, and directed a warning to its enemies to leave Israel alone.

    We agree it’s not about these fakes trying to take saints money and now all saints are anointed. Now that warning pertains to all saints as the “anointed”.

    However, the warning in Hebrew scripture (1 Chronicles 16:22 and noted again in Psalm 105:15), I used to think was pertaining to all of Israel under the old covenant, but after more study I had to agree with GaryV. It was Kings and Prophets. Only Kings were “anointed”, there is not a single place in Hebrew scripture where Israel as a whole was “anointed” it was a rite reserved for kings. So the scripture was about Kings as the “anointed” and not harming Prophets.

    Other verses around those 2 verses speak about Israel as a whole, but those 2 specific verses are about the Kings and Prophets.

    But if you can tell me where all of Israel was anointed as a whole I’ll be contacting GaryV and telling him I was right before😀 .

  5. nan said

    medina pullings husband i would think is the head pastor at the church they reside over. I would hope that she is not the head pastor, because that would be out of order. If a woman is pastoring a church she needs to have a husband pastoring over her and the congregation first and she being his other half qualifies her as assistant if that is what they have been called to do. As far a a woman heading a congregation without a husband with men in it NOTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTT. the bible says that men and women would prophesy, and that does not mean that women can pastor a church. That scripture is talking about prophesing only, and some people have taken it to mean that women can rule over men as pastor in church without having a husband over them. Now if you have a church full of women only, well that’s another thing entirely, but you better make sure there are not young underage men in that congregation because then you have another problem there, because young men need men to guide them regardless of what anyone says. You don’t want them in there acting like women. So really to stay in order men need to pastor churches and not women. Women can evangelize in different places, but not head a congregation of people alone. I really don’t see why people have a problem with letting men head the church because that is the way God is going to have His Church when Jesus returns
    s’s

  6. Marianne said

    Independent conservative

    You are right in that only kings and priests got the anointing oil….

    since the scripture I mentioned is describing the whole nation, I would just interpret it as a “corporate anointing” for a particular purpose. no oil used.

    marianne
    http://heavenawaits.wordpress.com/

  7. Nan, we’re near agreement, but not all the way there.

    medina pullings husband i would think is the head pastor at the church they reside over. I would hope that she is not the head pastor, because that would be out of order.

    This is a common misteaching. Medina IS NOT SUPPOSED TO BE HOLDING TEACHING SESSIONS OVER ANY GROUP THAT HAS ANY MEN. It’s not about who her husband is and his position in the church.

    1 Timothy 3 applies to ALL ELDERS/PASTORS. Those holding offices of teaching authority of any sort are to be men if the people they are instructing in a group setting includes men, 1 Timothy 2:11-14.

    she being his other half qualifies her as assistant if that is what they have been called to do.

    Name 1 Apostle of the Lord Jesus who’s wife held a position of authority where they instructed a group that included men? It never happened. Women are not to be holding positions of instruction in a an assembly of saints over men. Not over any man.

    People who say things like “his wife can lead with him” kind of talk is Americana and not scripture. It’s not about a woman having a husband and teaching over a church group, it’s about a woman trying to teach over a group that has ANY MEN, never mind her husband. A woman should not, that is what is in scripture.

    Private council is different. (That’s how Priscilla and her husband Aquila broke things down to Apollos, Acts 18:26.) If a woman wants to speak with a man in private because his doctrine is off, that’s fine, but she’s not to be teaching over a group of saints that has any men.

    You won’t find in scripture a husband and wife called to head a church, because a group of ELDERS are to run a church and elders are to be certain men.

    That scripture is talking about prophesing only

    Correct, anyone can prophesy, any lay member can. But women are not to have leadership spots over men. The “over men” part does not mean her having a husband that is over her, but she’s not to hold leadership over any man. No lay member man should have any women in leadership positions over him, none.

    Women can teach a group of women, women can teach children, women can share the gospel with unbelievers, women can offer a word of prophesy, but scripture does not have any women in the office of “evangelist” going around preaching to assemblies that have men.

    Men are to rule their household and it’s similar in God’s House. And scripture has no post of “head pastor”. There are to be a group of elders on equal weight with one speaking elder. That speaking elder while being the one giving sermons is NOT “head” over any of the other elders, they are all to run the church and make decisions as equals. Which should very much include the non-speaking elders admonishing the speaking elder if he says something that is out of line and even sitting him down or removing him if needed and another elder becoming the speaking elder. That is how church leadership is outlined in the whole of scripture and ensures no elder can get out of line without the church having a means for correction and if needed replacement.

    • Servant of the Lord said

      Independent, I would accompany you in battle on any given day, as it is evident that you spend quality time with our “Father in Heaven”. Your knowledge of the Word of God and ability to articulate scriptures, as well as the bold confidence and assurance, imputed unto you by the Holy Ghost, is FIRE unto my bones! In Christ…Amen!

      • LRC said

        I truly think both of your lust for power is evident in the way you neglect the Gospel of Christ in His leadership alone. People of this day have greatly lusted for and obtained & abused power that was never intended for a human being. It was intended for God alone. Men are no less sinful than women. Men also make mistakes and are sinful- all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. And no person can be brought to Christ except through Jesus’s blood. Jesus SPOKE with women in public – that was a heresy to the law. I see that all around me argue that our acceptance of females in leadership is a cultural phenomenon, however, most of those who argue are fighting for a law and lust of power that goes back millenia. Since Jesus came as a man, and WILLINGLY GAVE UP HIS AUTHORITY – doesn’t that set the precident for all MEN?

  8. Marianne, I don’t think Hebrew scripture has any concept of a “corporate anointing”🙂 . In Hebrew scripture the term “anointing” was always very specific in its use.

    We priests of a new royal priesthood (1 Peter 2:9) and we Christians are all anointed (2 Corinthians 1:21), all saints have the Holy Spirit indwelling. The “corporate anointing” concept better fits us than Israel. Israel has national claim to a corporate covenant though. The entire world has claim to a covenant like the Noahic Covenant, Genesis 8:20-22Genesis 9. But that’s not anointing🙂 .

  9. Marianne said

    Independent conservative.

    I guess it just comes down to terminology. For some reason, corporate, covenant, or something else, God expressed a certain command not to touch Israel. They were priests too. etc. they were chosen …etc.

    Isaiah 61:6
    But you will be called the (A)priests of the LORD;
    You will be spoken of as (B)ministers of our God
    You will eat the (C)wealth of nations,
    And in their riches you will boast.

  10. Marianne, Isaiah 61:6 speaks in future tense, it was prophesy, not their state then. Or can you tell me when Isaiah 61 was fulfilled? Because there is a lot more there than verse 6. It appears to me that was prophesy of things to come, but perhaps you can show me where that already occurred? It seems to me that was prophesy for the elect of God, Revelation 5:10. If it was for Israel the physical nation then, than Luke 19:43-44 would not have been spoken and occurred before fulfillment of Isaiah 61.

    No, they were not priests, they were (and are) Israel the physical nation. Hebrew scripture is clear about who their priests were. And only the priest could enter beyond the veil. In Christ we all have access beyond the veil. The book of Hebrews details this. To explain to Hebrews (and all saints) how they have access to God in Christ.

  11. Marianne said

    I do not see the wealth of nations going to anyone except Israel…the christians are not that wealthy..

    1 peter was written to hebrew believers.

    oil is not poured on our heads either as a group

  12. I do not see the wealth of nations going to anyone except Israel…the christians are not that wealthy..

    I’m not seeing wealth going to Israel at the moment. Right now it’s going to the Arabs and China at a very fast rate. I don’t think that prophesy was for Muslims and godless communists. I cited Revelation 5:10 in correlation with Isaiah 61, because it is apparent there are future events still yet to be fulfilled.

    If all the wealth was going to Israel, the USA would not have started paying subsidies to Israel once they gave up oil rich land in the peace deal with Egypt.

    List of countries by GDP Israel ranks #42. Now do you care to show some factual data that supports your claim? And if you want to cite US money moguls, Bill Gates is not a Jew. Warren Buffet who just surpassed Gates’ wealth recently is not a Jew either. So I’m not finding honest factual data to support your claim. You have not shown Isaiah 61:6 is taking place for the nation of Israel right now.

    I’m sorry, but you’ve not proven with scripture how anointing in Hebrew scripture was for anyone other than Kings. Israel as a nation has a covenant with God, that does not equate to anointing.

    There is a future of fulfillment coming with Christ’s return and earthly reign that is being missed here.

  13. Ross said

    Independent Conservative,

    with all due respect and with the understanding that I will not, most likely, change your hermeneutics or doctrine concerning women in ministry and their ability to teach in the men and women in the church, I must at least comment.

    The book of Acts gives indication of the importance of Pricilla (Acts 18:2,18,26). She, along with her husband Aquila, instructed Apollos who became a noted teacher in the church (Acts 18:26). There has always been a debate over the significance of the fact that Priscilla taught Apollos at home rather than in the church. but it must be recognized that she did teach Apollos (1 Timothy 2:12).

  14. Job said

    Ross:

    Since you introduced hermeneutics to the discussion, I presume that you are aware of the basic evangelical systematic approach to hermeneutics? That is, to construct doctrines, we use the following order of priority:

    1. Direct statements of scripture
    2. Direct implications of scripture
    3. Probable implications of scripture
    4. Inductive conclusions
    5. Insights from general revelation
    6. Outright speculation

    The notion that women cannot serve as pastors comes in the form of 1, 2, 3, and 4. It is directly stated in the epistles. It is directly implied in the epistles. It is probably implied in the epistles. And it is an inductive conclusion from the entirety of Biblical doctrines, teachings, and events. Meanwhile, no consistent, contextual example of 1, 2, 3, and 4 exists that supports the claim that women can serve as pastors. Women can be deacons and prophets? I fully agree from Miriam to the daughters of Philip in terms of prophets, and the host of female deacons in Romans 16 among other places. Pastors? Deborah in Judges is all you have.

    Priscilla taught Apollos? More accurately, she EVANGELIZED Apollos. Read the context. Apollos only knew of the baptism of John. He had not heard the gospel of Jesus Christ. I certainly agree that the great commission, the commandment of Jesus Christ to tell all people of His resurrection, applies to women. Priscilla’s doing so with Apollos (as well as the women being the first to discover the risen Christ and being commanded by Christ to go tell the male APOSTLES) serves as a perfect counterweight to any satanic knucklehead that wants to come along and claim that “women should be in subjection and learn in silence” means that women cannot go tell people about Jesus Christ. But I am certain that you would agree that one does not have to be a pastor, elder, etc. to go tell it on the mountain that Jesus Christ is born (and died for your sins and is risen and is coming again).

  15. Marianne said

    I do not care who is pastor, as long as they are honest, pure, non-materialistic, humble, smart, and are truly called (not self called or called by man).

  16. Ross, you’re just wrong, but until you submit to the authority of scripture, you’re going to remain with clouded judgment on the matter.

    Pricilla in private spoke with Apollos. This in no way means she assumed the role of teacher. You folks who abuse Acts 18 act as if Aquila (her husband) was not even in the room! You have no proof Pricilla carried out most of the speaking to Apollos, the scripture says Priscilla and Aquila heard him, they took him aside and explained to him the way of God more accurately.

    1. It was a private discussion, not Aquila assuming the role of pastor/elder/bishop.
    2. It was a private discussion, not Aquila assuming the role of teacher in an assembly with men. You’ve got zero scripture showing any woman ever played the role of teacher over an assembly OF CHRISTIAN SAINTS WITH MEN IN THE BUNCH. Bottom line, you’re thrusting women into teaching roles or even accepting it is unbiblical.
    3. As Job points out, they were telling Apollos who Jesus is, because he had not fully come to salvation. We all agree any lay member woman or man or even child can go tell someone who is not yet saved with the Holy Spirit indwelling them about Jesus.

    Regarding Deborah, she was not a pastor, but a prophet offering judgment. And here’s the real kicker about Deborah, that people who abuse scripture about her ignore. SHE JUDGED THOSE WHO CAME TO HER. She did not go out making public open proclamations to entire cities like Jonah or some other male prophets. Her method was totally different and more in line with a woman offering private council.

    Ross, there is a mountain of scripture speaking against you. You’ve read material here that speaks against you. Well at least I hope you read the link at the top of this post before speaking.

    Are you the head of your household given you are a man Ross? I’m sure you’d say yes, you understand Ephesians 5, but when it comes to relating that to God’s house you read 1 Timothy 2 and 1 Timothy 3 (where GOD HAS PAUL relate it to His House) and come up with a BLANK. Well Ross, it’s right there as Paul spoke to Timothy, men lead and men teach male saints. Your efforts to bring up a woman speaking to someone in private WITH HER HUSBAND WITH HER holds no weight as a claim women should be over men in teaching regarding already redeemed saints.

    GOD, not me told Paul to write the following words to Timothy. Words THE LORD preserved for us.
    1 Timothy 2:12-14 (King James Version)

    12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

    13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve.

    14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

    And any woman teaching over men in a church assembly is self called or called out of order by someone else by default.

    To claim otherwise, you have to go all the way back to Adam and Eve and change the course of events there, which is the FOUNDATION for women never teaching over male saints. It’s not some “cultural” junk, it’s a foundation you can’t move, no more than a human can avoid the fact they were born into sin.

    The scripture is clear, but you who want to harbor bias against God’s Word because of all the Women’s Liberation Movement has taught are on empty foundation.

    • LRC said

      This response truly helps me regret ever being born, let alone as a woman. Congratulations for successfully condemning another human being into slavery, mundaneness, and unequal existence. If that is the kind of God you serve, I want NO part in it.

  17. Terrance said

    Show me where the spirit of the Lord has gender

    • Servant of the Lord said

      Terrrance, Terrance….Ooooh my brother Terrance…. As it is evidence, your maturity in Gods Word is absent. Continue to seek the Holy Scriptures, regarding His Truth, and He will reveal all to you. In Christ…Amen!

  18. Terrance said

    The Lord will and can use whomever He wants in any position He wants. He said i give pastors after mine own heart who says a woman cant be….If i was a sinner things such as these debts would make me want to stay in the world

  19. Terrance said

    lol…i meant debates

  20. Terrance said

    My thing is leave people alone…if someone feels that the spirit of the Lord is leading them in a certain area then thats them nobody can ever know wat the Lord put in a person but God and that person…It’s not our job to judge or give our opinions its wat God says it is and thats finally so just shut up and leave people alone…how many souls are won by this debate? please tell me

  21. Job said

    Terrance:

    “how many souls are won by this debate?”

    The same number of souls that are won by your coming on here telling me to shut up. You have revealed the true nature of your spiritual maturity, character, and knowledge of the Bible – or should I say lack thereof in all of those areas – by your own words, and by doing so cause your own scripturally unsupported views more harm than good. And it is very heartening that you feel that when the anti – Christ comes, your response to people taking the mark and going to hell will be “if someone feels that the spirit of the Lord is leading them in a certain area then thats them nobody can ever know wat the Lord put in a person but God and that person…It’s not our job to judge or give our opinions its wat God says it is and thats finally so just shut up and leave people alone”

    According to your logic, it is impossible to say that any preacher is false, or for that matter that any religion is false. Like there aren’t billions of Hindus and Muslims plus millions of Mormons, Jehovah’s Witnesses, and whatever else on this planet claiming that their god did not call them. Who are you to judge them and say that they are wrong, Terrance? Based on what authority do you do so? The Bible? The very same Bible that you are saying should not have authority over Christians in this matter? In what matter do you believe the Bible has authority, Terrance? If you don’t listen to what the Bible says about women preachers, why should I listen to what the Bible says about “judge not”? They are both in the New Testament, Terrance, so that route isn’t available to you. If you don’t listen to what the Bible says about women preachers, then why do you listen to what the Bible says about Jesus Christ being God’s Son? They are both in the New Testament, Terrance.

    The Bible is not some buffet that you can pick and choose from as it conveniences your lifestyle. The Bible is to be believed and obeyed. Either start doing it or quit lying to people – including yourself – about being a Christian. I am sorry, was that judging you? Well, again, since you reject what the Bible says about women preachers, I have the right to reject what the Bible says about not judging. Except the difference between you and me is that I can – and have – come up with sound doctrine based on a clear reading of the Bible that explains why I have the authority to judge, whereas you cannot come up with ANYTHING to justify women preaching save the hardness of your rebellious heart. Which is precisely why you proved the hardness of your rebellious heart by telling me to shut up. People who have no facts to back them up have no choice but to resort to such juvenile tactics. Well, Terrance, I want you to know that it is not me that your words caused any harm, but rather yourself, because you are the one that has to answer for those words on judgment day, not I.

    • Servant of the Lord said

      Well stated my brother….well stated. You are to commended for your direct, but heart felt godly knowledge and wisdom, reply to Terrance. God bless you. In Christ…Amen!

    • LRC said

      In your spiritual immaturity and lack of HOW to apply hermeneutics & exegetical Biblical research. You speak of a “buffet” style gospel, when in reality you’ve taken a select 3 passages, from a patriarchial dominated history, and chosen to apply them as YOU see fit. I agree — you tell me how many souls are won by your power trip

  22. lily said

    Dear Job
    I have several important questions to ask you. Who are you? what is your correct name? To which particular group or denomination do you belong? And in particular what or who gave you permission to speak with such arrogant “authority”?

    It is a matter of concern to me that your website is so secret, no names or backgrounds. What have you to hide?

    I shall be very interested to see if you reply, no reply will confirm what I suspect and that is that you are a lone, lonely man.

    • Servant of the Lord said

      Lilly:

      Why are you so offended with the subject matter?
      I think you are more concern with being right, than you are about the church and body of christ bring glory to God.

      First one must humble himself that he may receive revelation from the Lord,
      concerning the matter.

      Until then, one will only hear his own voice and and that of satan, while continuing in pride which is a primary sin that blocks any interpretation from the Holy Spirit.

      In Christ…Amen!

    • Servant of the Lord said

      than you are about the church and body of christ bring glory to God.

  23. lily said

    cont/

    that non child-bearing women are damned!

    I feel that your antagonism to women in ministry is blinding your judgements on the subject. It is quite easy to bend the meaning of Scripture to fit any preconcieved doctrine if we are selective enough with the chapter and verses that we use.

  24. Lily, the reasoning for women not holding leadership over men is clear.

    1 Timothy 2:13-14 (New American Standard Bible)

    13 For it was Adam who was first created, and then Eve.

    14 And it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression.

    And since you are so desiring of knowing details about a person, why don’t you tell Job who you are? Isn’t it a bit hypocritical, to claim Job (that is his “correct” name) is somehow “hiding” when you’ve revealed nothing about yourself?

    How about you stop your ad hominem, read Job’s write-up and the scripture he’s cited in full, then if you still have issues speak about it from scripture?

  25. Some how even amongst the Bible worshippers, Churches, most of the basic doctrines in Christianity too seem to be too often still contradicted, and that is why we have so many Christian sects, denominations now too, now even the whole issue of a women preacher seems to be still distorted when we have Junia, a women being noteworthy amongst the apostles in the book of acts, and since any reasonable persons will admit apostles or missionaries, all elders continue to function today, we thus have women missionaries who still do teach and preach.. but not in an American Church? and we had women in the book of Acts woemen being able to prophesy as well.. but we cannot have women preachers in America, even a women preacher who has her husband’s permission to do so now too?

    Also a Christian was also not allowed to cut her hair short as well but some how they today all can do that in the churches as well? even to wear clearly men’s clothing, pants? even men and women now wearing jewelry, make up in the church still too.. dressed more like pagans..contrary to the Bible too.

    but sadly churches, Christianity today are full of lies, distortions, absurdities.. when even many the supposedly Holy spirit filled fundamentals rather do believe that only the devil lives today, causes miracles to happen, but also wrongfully believe it seems that that God the Holy Sprit is dead, he the Holy Spirit of Jesus Christ does not heal today cannot, and cannot distribute any spiritual gifts he wants still to whom he wants, nor does he speak in or through tongues to or by anyone, or speak at all outside of the Bible now too.. all still also clearly contradicting what the the Bible here said too.

    Better to read the Bible for yourself, to let the Holy Spirit teach you over mere men again, who still too often put their trust into and worship falsely other men and what other men have said cause they it really seems have not really yet gotten to the point it seems the Holy Spirit himself can teach them, speak to them.. http://pbulow.tripod.com/

    • Servant of the Lord said

      Listen if you will, Thenonconformer.

      Wisdom and understanding of scripture can only be discerned by the indwelling of Gods Holy Spirit, in us. In fact, the Word of God states, “The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned….(1 Corithians 2:14).

      In order to receive revelation regarding the living Word of God, one must first, be born again, having a regenerated heart, consumed by the Holy Spirit.

      Even as a born again christian, one must study to show himself approved, that he may not be ashamed, correctly explaining the Word of Truth, according to scripture…(2 Timothy 2:15).

      So you see, a novice who has not studied to show himself approved, or one without the Holy Spirit is incapable of understanding or explaining the Word of God.

      Without a mature understanding of Gods Word and the consuming fire of the Holy Ghost, we only speak from our flesh, having minimum to no ability to correctly interpret scripture.

      In Christ…Amen!

  26. Reminds me where in the Bible does it say that the Pastor is the head of the local church? and we are limited to one pastor elder in every church now too?

    Here is the irony to me for I think that God is raising women preachers in the Anglican churches too, like he did in the old testament too, when the men themselves had now stopped functioning as decent elders, had stopped doing a good job.. when 70 percent of the pastors are ungodly, adulterous or gays it seems, and many of whom live lavishly, high on the hog, do lies, slander, gossip, cheat, lie, steal and commit tax evasions too often too..

    why not? why cannot God bnow raise anyone he wants, after all he God did even speak through a donkey or whathever..

    http://anyonecare.wordpress.com/2008/07/16/just-by-me-merely-observing/

  27. Thenonconformer, as I mentioned to Lily. First, please take the time to read Job’s write-up in full. Then if you have issues, please return to discuss them from scripture.

  28. The common claim some are using, is that a certain woman said a word in the Bible, well so did a donkey! Can we put some donkeys into pulpits and claim they are church leaders? It would only suit that bad logic. Junia is never shown to have leadership over men, no more than other women mentioned. There are women spoken of who were with Jesus, they were not leaders over men and not Apostles, just as Junia was not an apostle. Junia is never spoken of as being an Elder leading a church assembly of women and men. Scripture does not say Junia was a church elder, so nobody should be trying to claim she was something there is no statement of in scripture. “Kinsmen and my fellow prisoners” and known to the Apostles, being saved before Paul, does NOT equate to someone being part of church leadership over women and men, but simply a fellow saint known of. The capacity of Junia’s work is not given and nobody should try adding to scripture, to claim she was something scripture never says she was. Scripture’s advice on church leadership is clear. A man is the head of his household and certain men lead the House of God.

    1 Timothy 3:5 (New American Standard Bible)

    5 (but if a man does not know how to manage his own household, how will he take care of the church of God?),

    It does not matter what her “husband” permits. Does her husband permit her to be the head of the house too? She can’t have leadership over other men regardless of what her husband says, because you can’t make an Eve into an Adam.

    If God wanted women to lead as Elders over women and men, the Holy Spirit would have had Paul tell evangelists such as Timothy and Titus so in instructions to them. Jesus and the Apostles had NO PROBLEM breaking various social taboos, so them not placing women in leadership is NOT some facet of cultural concerns. It is the true command of God.

    • LRC said

      If you are following the Bible, especially the example Jesus gave – He was a man, He laid down ALL authority (by which He is the only ‘he’ who has rightful claim to the title “Head of” or “Head over”) given to Him — the key point – He laid it down willingly. It seems to me that there are plenty of men & women who vye for earthly men seeking power and authority that was never granted to them. All have sinned, and fallen short of the glory of God. If you are given authority what is the purpose? To claim it as your own “I am male, therefore I can be a pastor. You are a woman, and you cannot…” Look at Jesus, He laid it down, and MADE HIMSELF NOTHING. I do not think women are scratching to usurp men – or to lord authority over them as many in the church fear. I believe we are all to lay down our rights, our proclaimation of what we think about secondary issues, and pull our heads out of this debate and serve & win souls for Christ. I dare you to preach your woman cannot be a pastor sermon to Africa, India, Asia, even Europe and tell me that you are setting the captives free. You offer them nothing more than the bondage they already were in – especially the women.

  29. To Independent Conservative.. did I really believe in a different reply from you now.. of course not..

    so why cannot God now use, raise anyone he wants, after all he God did even speak through a donkey or whatever

    I stand by my all of posted comments even that most men do these days act as bad pastors undeniably especially the one man ministries.. undeniably too

    and you can interpret the Bible anyway you want and call it Biblical too it is still your own interpretations.. not the Holy Spirit’s and too often as well.

    it should by now even be clearly to you who wants to respect the Biblical pecking, hierarchy order that firstly the Apostles, and Prophets are still the rulers over pastors, for they are their superior elders… as per (Eph 4:11 KJV) And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

    and no one to me can deny that women prophets had existed too.. do exist today..

    and I do not bully, abuse, insult, downgrade, degrade, bash, attack the women..

    I admit also in reality men and women are equally bad sinners too often now too… and both need to be really saved from themselves too by Jesus Christ..

    It is a sad note as well that both religious persons of all the minor, major religions too, and non religious persons, at least 90 percent of them, have been, or are still unacceptably guilty of false the discriminations of others. There is still a serious, real need in changing the Muslim countries’ laws, agendas, in order to fill the gap between the supposed women’s rights afforded by Islam, and women’s rights afforded in reality by many of the Muslim societies, and most Muslim males have to accept some serious religious even re-education.. http://postedat.wordpress.com/2008/08/01/sikhism-is-an-independent-religion-and-it-is-not-a-sect-of-islam-or-hinduism/

    It is amazing to me that Christian Muslims have the same power trip over women as Muslim men, and do they beat them now as well? http://thefocusonthefamily.wordpress.com/2008/08/12/more-about-control-freaks/

    here it is also very interesting to note that of the main issue in many person’s comparative religion reviews on the net on the major religions it boiled down as to how they treat women rather still.. and how they do allow divorce too.. male female relationships aspects

  30. Thenonconformer – Your ad hominem continues.

    and you can interpret the Bible anyway you want and call it Biblical too it is still your own interpretations.. not the Holy Spirit’s and too often as well.

    Oh yea, but Thenonconformer’s views expressed are all 100% in agreement with the Holy Spirit🙄 . Well Thenonconformer, if you want to think of yourself as in any way greater than myself, I will in no way challenge your claim. Although I didn’t write:

    1 Timothy 2:12 (New American Standard Bible)

    12 But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet.

    And if I’m out of order for standing in agreement with Paul’s stance, than that’s a fault I’m willing to maintain till I see Jesus and have Him test if my stance is good.

    But for the one Bible verse you did cite, Ephesians 4:11, I don’t see anyone in the office of Prophet today, male or female and no the women who were Prophetesses, such as Philip’s daughters did NOT hold leadership over Elders. They as Prophetesses certainly didn’t hold leadership over their father who was an Evangelist! Using your logic of Ephesians 4:11 each title in your view outranks another by order and so an evangelists would lead over pastors. But Timothy started as an evangelist, but later became a pastor/bishop, which also totally defies your attempt to place order rank based on which title was stated before another.

    Thenonconformer, have you read Job’s write-up yet? Will you read it in full?

    • LRC said

      That is the point, Independent C. – it was PAUL’s answer to the church due to the fact that a majority of their women had turned to pagan gods (gee, I wonder if it had to do with the male population lording their male authoritarianism over them…) and were not allowed to write or read… If I had a teacher who had not been allowed to write or read & then came to ‘teach’ me, I think I’d leave the class too. The fact of the matter is that Paul owned up the fact that it was he himself (rather than him saying, “as from Christ these words I tell you” as he did in other epistles) answering a specific church’s question & instructing them in how to deal with some difficult issues. Point? Jesus came to abolish the law, He spoke with women, appeared in His resurrection to them first, told them to go tell the others (the men, who doubted them until Jesus showed up – learn a lesson from that one), who broke the lines of oppression and misguided authoritarianism which is now resurfacing like a vast posion througout our churches – it divides. I do not follow the Gospel of Paul, John, Luke, etc… I follow Christ and the redemptive life of Jesus Christ that God gave through Himself – that God would even send Jesus for us – would even have Him come down & redeem us .. why are you so adherent to the American Christian Culture ? Jesus came for a great reverse. I am not for any one lording authority over another- humans cannot handle power given to them lest they lay it down – even the mere claim of it gives gateway to: murder, slander, adultery, lies, the list goes on and on. What the Garden of Eden showed was that humans needed help. They couldn’t manage authority on their own – not even simple commands given, nor the ability to stand up for what was right and say “no, I’m not doing that, it’s not right” (for those who claim Adam’s irresponsibility as well for sin). Zoom out of your hormones, physical, mental, and limited spiritual lense and take a bigger picture.

  31. Golda said

    Women can do any ministry, if called by God.

    http://endtimespropheticwords.wordpress.com/2007/09/30/women-in-ministry-and-female-spiritual-authority/

    • Servant of the Lord said

      It’s clear my sister, that you have chosen to trust your fleshly opinion regarding the subject matter, without searching the scriptures of Truth.

      This is what God saids: “Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a workman who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly explains the word of truth”. (2 Timothy 2:15).

      In doing this, you will be amazed with the revelation that God would reveal unto you.

      In Christ….Amen!

  32. Jane Holt said

    I clicked on this site because I am a Pentecostal Christian, and there are so MANY women pastors in the Pentecostal independent churches. I’ve become very discouraged at times that there is no understanding of this subject of women preachers from scripture. I have friends that I would love to go to church with, but I refuse to accept a woman Pastor. It’s hard to maintain what is truly in the Word of God when seemingly the whole world doesn’t care what the truth is!
    From what I find in scripture, it is absolutely wrong for a woman to hold ANY office in the church. The position of Pastor in a church is an office AND a calling AND requires the spiritual gift of preaching and/or teaching the Word of God. So now we come to spiritual gifts. These gifts, which include preaching and teaching, are given to men AND women, as noted in scripture that there is neither male nor female in the spirit. I know that women are gifted in the spirit as well as men in order that the Word of God is spread and that the Body is edified. However, the requirements for the offices of Pastor, Bishop, and Elders are clearly defined to include men ONLY.

  33. lily said

    Hi Job
    Several months ago I asked you to answer a few questions, not least who are you actually? Which denomination or Fellowship do you belong to? Who gives you the authority to speak with such arrogance? You have declined to respond, other than to throw the questions back at me. However YOU are the one using the net to broadcast your opinions, not me, YOU claim to speak for the Lord, You are boastful and puffed up in your own conceits, and YOU WILL NOT identify yourself. You cannot discuss intelligently the issues but simply quote the scriptures that you can twist to support your view point. (I have read your article by the way) I know my Bible as well as you, I suspect, having been a Christian for over 60 years,- and studied it. I wonder why you are so puffed up as a male? Does this superior attitude perhaps come from a deep insecurity? Do women threaten you and are you jealous of your position? Or more to the point do you really have a position in any church or fellowship.

    Your whole attitude oozes male chauvinism, not the best place from which to address the issue of women in ministry or to conduct a balanced discussion. Men like you have used the matter of Eve being the first decieved as a basis for keeping women in “submission – chatels” for generations, what you men choose to forget is, that Adam too sinned through disobedience, he ate the forbidden fruit, he was thrown out of the garden, and if he, Adam, was the superior how much greater was his sin. Firstly his eating of the fruit, and secondly his failure to protect Eve from the Serpent.
    I await your response
    Lily

  34. John Kaniecki said

    Lily,

    Hi hope you are well.

    How many of the apostle were woman?
    Were the preists female?

    Love,

    John

    • LRC said

      Hey there Mr.John K. There were women “apostles” of Christ. Please study the Hebrew & Greek of your Bible Mary, Mary, and Martha were among some of Christ’s apostles/ followers. Priests – in a patriarchal culture there were no women allowed – again. Please do your research before posting such questions. Thanks. :O)

  35. lily said

    Hi John
    I am surprised at your ignorance! Do you really need me to answer your questions? No I didn’t think so! But you and others like you refuse a reasoned discussion and hide behide asking retorical questions. Your unwillingness to address the issue speaks volumes. You cannot come up with an intelligent augument.
    Lily

  36. John Kaniecki said

    Hi Lily,

    Hope you are well.

    I’m not hiding behind anything I’m just starting a discussion.

    Let me ask you in Timothy and Titus what are the qualifications for Elders, Bishops, Overseers? The words all mean the same thing.

    The Bible explicitly says that these offices are to be held by men.

    I’m just using scriputre to state why I believe that women have different roles than men. Anytime you bring me some scripture I’d be glad to examine it and discuss it in a civil manner.

    Love,

    John

  37. Diane said

    Hi John,

    Jesus commissioned (sent-apostle) all believers. All believers are “sent”… this is not a “title” but a natural outcome of being born again.

    Priests:
    My understanding of the main responsibilities of priests were to:

    *High Priest
    -offer up daily meal offerings
    -do ceremonial sprinklings
    -enter the Holy of Holies on the Day of Atonement, sprinkling the mercy seat with blood

    *Priest
    -offer up sacrifices
    -collect the blood, & sprinkle the altar
    -make decisions & perform rituals concerning leprosy, mould etc.
    -blow the trumpets at ceremonies and war times

    You and I can only speculate as to “why” only certain men (not ALL men, which would exclude you as well) were permitted to enter the Holy of Holies, offer sacrifices etc. One belief is the monthly menstration period of women (which is old blood), would only make her ceremonially unclean to enter and offer sin offerings and sacrifices for sin to God on behalf of the people.

    So using “priests were male” disqualifies every Gentile male from being pastor (a pastor is not a priest). And in this dispensation, no one male or female qualifies.

    As you know, Christ is our only Mediator and High Priest and He alone has offered up Himself a sacrifice for sin and it is through Him that we enter the Holy of Holies.

    Prophet and Priest have different functions. One generally speaks the Will and Word of God to the people, the other offers up sacrifices. On rare occassion, a person functioned as Prophet, Judge, & Priest.

    Prophets, were also known as seers (spiritual vision). When the Spirit of God came upon a person, He would give them utterance and they spoke comfort or correction. These Prophets were and are male and female.

  38. Diane said

    Do you believe that only married men with children are to be “elders, bishops, and overseers”? Hopefully, you see the intent in these verses being that an individual’s life must be that of integrity and faithfulness.

    Please show where Jesus set up “offices to be held”. The word “Office” was inserted there by translators.

    1 Tim 3:8-11
    “Likewise, deacons (ministers, teachers) must be…
    :11 Women likewise must be….”

    ————————————————–

    Polygamy is a result of sin, not God’s will. There were laws written that stated how these women were to be treated to keep society from sliding further into depravity, NOT as a sign that polygamy is God’s will and command. When reading the Bible, you have to pray and ask God “is this Your will for this particular situation and time, or, is this Your will for ALL men and All time”.

    • Servant of the Lord said

      Hi Diane:

      It is evident that you have not studied the Word of God thoroughly as He commands us to do so in…(2 timothy 2:15).
      God has appointed offices in His Word, through the Apostle Paul as he declares in…(Ephesian 4:11).
      Though the world system has infiltrated the church in many ways, this serious matter has nothing to do with women liberation birthed in the 90″s, protesting equal rights for women. As a result of this rebellious disorder in the church,…strife, confusion and division has contributed greatly to the disfunction of healthy church growth and the well being in the Body of Christ!

      In Christ…Amen!

      • LRC said

        Rebellious disorder in the Church? Would that include the adultery cover-ups by pastors time & time again? Or the molestation cases that have been found rampant? You’re trying to diverge that a secular movement is what gave birth to the women’s rights movement, however, if you looks at the Baptist clasues from 1890 – 1970, you will find MANY women held pastoral positions, eldership position and deaconness positions in all parts of the church. You look at the fact there were plenty of women’s movements that were not deemed as such as far back as the 1600’s. Please study your theological history reference as well as your world history to get your facts straight. Also, the very fact that these same two PARTS of these passages are quoted – please show me where else in the Bible these things are stated? There is fact and reason to why these two commands are stated in only two portions of scripture. Also – please look at the exegetical hermeneutical Greek references (you can Google the passage if you’d like) and the translation history of these books & passages. You cannot negate that words, punctuation, and several other logisical linguistical elements have been altered. This is not MY observation, but one of many Biblical scholars’ results of centuries of research.

  39. John Kaniecki said

    Hi Diane,

    Hope you are well.

    I am just showing you the scripturally where men occupy positions the women cannot hold.

    You can replace office with ‘position of authority’. Remember that the teachings of the apostles are part of the Bible and divinely inspired. Thus Paul’s writings to Timothy and Titus are considered scripture and for our learning and understanding.

    Yes I think part of the intent was to prove that the men were full of integrity and faithful. Part of the proof of this would be an examination of their wife and childrens lives. A candidate with children who were unfaithful would disqualify a man from being an elder. Yet it only mentions men. The Bible is very exact in the language it uses.

    Timothy 3:11 in my King James uses the word wives from the greek word gune. I will research that later.

    You have yet to show scripture where a woman can be a minister where she has authority over men.

    Love,

    John

  40. Diane said

    John,
    I hope youre doing well yourself.

    No, John, you are giving your opinion of God’s will for women and your interpretations of certain passages.

    You cannot replace “office” with “position of authority”, because neither of those terms are there, and because Christ has not given anyone male or female “authority” over His people. Jesus specifically says “it shall not be so among you” Matt 20:26

    John you didnt address several important points I raised dealing with “why” things are written and what’s being addressed. Perhaps the way I wrote didnt bring out the point I am trying to make, so let me restate it:

    Christ had many disciples (male, female, single, married).
    Are you stating that an UNMARRIED male disciple with no children is unqualified to teach and lead?

    If you say “no” he is not unqualified to teach, pray over, serve and lead by example a gathering of believers, then you agree with me that this passage speaks of character and not gender. If you say “yes” he is unqualified to teach, pray over, serve and lead by example because an overseer MUST be married according to this passage, you then set yourself against the fact that Christ qualified his single disciples to teach and make disciples.

    If you believe women are unqualified to lead, then by your interpretation so are single men….

    Judge: pronounce sentence (for or against), to vindicate or punish, litigate, contend, defend, execute judgment, plead, reason, rule.

    shophetims (judges) were chosen and annointed by God to deliver His people from oppression and to govern them.

    Judges 2:18
    And when the Lord raised up judges for them, the LORD WAS WITH THE JUDGE and delivered them out of the hand of their enemies all the days of the judge…

    2:19 And it came to pass, when the judge was dead, that they reverted and behaved more corruptly…

    4:4 now Deborah, a prophetess, the woman/wife of torches/Lapidoth was judging Israel at that time…

    Psalm 68:11
    The Lord gave the word; the women who proclaim the good tidings are a great host..

    Please address the points Ive made about single men, and laws concerning polygamy… do you interpret that to be God’s will?

  41. John Kaniecki said

    Diane,

    Titus 1:5 “For this cause left I thee in Crete, that thou shouldest set in order the things that are wanting, and ordain elders in every city, as I had appointed thee.”

    What is going on here? Paul is instructing Titus to go to Crete and ordain elders. The Greek word could be translated appoint. Notice that elders is plural.

    Elders as far as I understand the Bible are people who have the spiritual rule in a congregation. Titus has intimate knowledge of the people in Crete as having evangelized and helped Paul in their conversion. Titus is sent to ordain elders at a later time. Why? Because one qualification of an Elder is that he must not be a novice in the faith (1 Timothy 3:6) Titus 1:9 says a qualification is “Holding fast the faithful word as he hath been taught.” So when Titus or Timothy was with these people nobody was qualified to be an elder because they were all new converts and novices.

    Acts 15:4 show elders having authority as they meet Paul. Also Acts 20:17 and 21:18 shows elders in positions of authority.

    I Timothy 3:5 explains Elders rule the house of God.

    Each congregation in the New Testament was autonomous. Of course the Apostles had authority but they died. Elders then were in charge of the congregations. Note it is a plural title meaning more than one. As the Church strayed from the faith there was usually one elder or bishop who assumed authority he shouldn’t. That is how things developed.

    As far as I understand it elders have the rule over the spiritual sight of the congregation. They are helped by deacons. Some say the men appointed in Acts 6 are deacons but the Bible doesn’t call them that. Deacons also are required to be married men.

    So yes if a man was unmarried he would not be qualified to be an elder. Also if he had no children he would not be qualified as well. Part of the spiritual oversight would be to council those in the flock and a man not married or without children could not give advice on these issues.

    Now the ‘church’ today has many different titles given to men. Some men call themselves incorrectly reverends. That is a name reserved for God see Psalm 111:9. Other people claim themselves to be Popes or Cardinals though the Bible never speaks about these positions at all. Also some today claim to be apostles. There are no living apostles today because nobody can fill the qualifications of that office.

    Now a single man could be a preacher or an evangelist. Paul was a single man as far as we know. Note the Bible never mentions Paul to be an elder. Peter who was married however speaks of himself as an elder.

    Yes God intended man to have only one wife.

    I will let you respond as I have gone over quite a bit.

    Love,

    John

  42. Diane said

    John,
    true faithful believers who carry their cross and follow Him are true leaders in any gathering. Yes appoint those who have been tested and tried, but they are to teach and be examples, they are not “lords” with dominion. Jeremiah, Jesus, Paul, & some of the 12 do not fit your definition of overseer. The scriptures you gave as the basis of your belief that christians have “authority over other christians” dont say that at all.

    Jesus said to “feed My sheep”. Youre not going to muscle anyone into the Kingdom of God. People come to Christ and grow in Christ through the Holy Spirit and God’s Word which men and women are to preach.

    I agree with you, a marriage is between one man and one woman. Now do we attribute those other verses to the hardness of man’s heart, or, do we say those verses are God inspired and God’s will for man?

    My point is learn to distinguish whether a passage is addressing a certain situation for a certain time and the true Will of God.

  43. John Kaniecki said

    Diane,

    Hi hope you are well.

    Anyone can be a leader but the Bible specifies certain ministries. See Ephesians 4:11 “And he gave some, apostles, and some, prophets; and some evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers.

    An elder is a different position in the church. The duties and qualifications are laid out in 1 Timothy and Titus. If you disagree than please tell me what you think those two passages are talking about.

    Love,

    John

  44. Diane said

    John,
    I have 4 sons who have varying responsibilities according to their maturity. The ones who demonstrate faithfulness and obedience receive greater trust and greater responsibility. These are not offices, but something they do according to ability and obedience.

    Little boys and girls are not given the responsibility of raising children (pastoring, discipling); irresponsible young men and women are not given the responsibility of teaching their peers (apostle, prophet, evangelist, teacher). But in each male and female there is the ability and potential to grow and mature to their full stature and fulfill their calling.

    When one is born again they are inherently endowed with gifts and abilities from the Father. Yes God is still “sending/apostello,evangelizing” believers, yes God is still empowering men and women to “speak under Divine inspiration/prophets,pastors,teachers”. These have not been done away with.

    Love Diane

  45. John Kaniecki said

    Diane,

    Hi hope you are well. Wisdom and reasoning is great but do so in accordance with the scriptures.

    I contend the Bible teaches that there are various ministries. Some of these ministries like elder or bishop are exclusive to men.

    Love,

    John

  46. Diane said

    John,

    man, not God, elevated elder to an office. You believe some christians have “authority over other christians”, that belief is not rooted in Christ either.

    The fact of there being various ministries has never been a point of contention, some ministries being exclusive to men is your opinion…. that is not God’s opinion of women He raises up.

    My beliefs about women are solidly grounded in the Will of God, you are being dismissive if you disregard the examples of women leading and proclaiming the Word of God to men and women.

    Love Diane

  47. God and His Word are in agreement. Never is a woman approved to be elder or teaching assemblies with both women and men.

    If you have not already Diane, please read the earlier comments in this tread. You’re turning from the truth to suit your own emotions.

  48. Hey John, you do know that people who approve of homosexuals as “bishops” use the same angles, methods and tactics we often see from those who approve of women as elders.

  49. John Kaniecki said

    IC,

    Hi hope you are well.

    I think you agree that scripture has elders that have authority in the church. Perhaps the exact nature of their authority can be debated but to deny that people are ordained to be elders in conflicting with the clear teachings of scripture.

    You see the TBM on the other thread is arguing that an elder or bishop does not need to be married.

    Diane,

    I am still waiting for what you think those scriptures in 1 Timothy and Titus are referring to.

    As far as having the office of an apostle nobody today meets those qualifications. If you disagree I will show you the scriptures.

    Love,

    John

  50. Diane said

    John,

    I have stated my belief that those verses are emphasizing the importance of godly character in leaders not the restriction of gender or single males. I have also stated the importance of understanding “why”, and understanding things that apply to certain situations.

    And again, 1 of many examples being:
    Jesus attributed what was written about divorce to Moses… not God, and explained “why” that was written. The Will of God was not found in THAT particular law, but was declared and emphasized in the Words and Life of Christ. Are you sincerely hungering after truth, or are you purposely ignoring the Word of God presented here?

    Please show where Christ teaches the “office” of anything. He “sent”… are you claiming that to be an “office” done away with? He told us to teach, but we are not to be called “teacher”, are you claiming that to be an “office”?

    John, you havent given a response to the truth that women and men are called to lead.

    I havent even spoken about the liberty that women have in Christ yet, because you havent been able to harmonize carnal opinions with Deborah.

    Please respond with eternal truth rooted and grounded in Christ… not from unregenerate sinful oppressive societal norms.

    ————-

    IC,

    God has never raised up a homosexual to lead His people out of apostasy and bondage, and He does not consider Deborah, Phoebe, and a great host of women an abomination. May the Lord reprove your implications here.

  51. angie said

    The bottom line is we have to accept the fact that the pulpit is NOT our domain. The pulpit is NOT anyone’s domain if it’s not your calling.

  52. Diane said

    Deborah annointed and raised up by God was Prophet and Judge.

  53. John, we are in full agreement on this brother. Including the fact the office of Apostle is closed. Just as the “office” of Prophet is. We have the sure word of scripture today, 2 Peter 1:19. As far as TBM/TTM, send Job an e-mail when you’re done with them, so they can be sent their walking papers🙂 .

    Diane, Deborah was not a church elder and was an old covenant prophetess who judged people who came to see her. She did not even go into the streets making public judgments as male prophets such as Jonah. Phoebe was not a church elder and it’s a sad hack that people such as you and groups such as some members of PCUSA have done in claiming she was something she was not. Phoebe never taught assemblies with men and scripture never says she did. She carried a letter for Paul and helped him in some ways as is in Romans 16, but she was not an elder. She was not an evangelist like Timothy or Titus either and never called one. She helped Paul and the apostle made it clear he did NOT allow women teaching and holding authority over men and that ONLY certain married men are to be elders. 1 Timothy 2 and 1 Timothy 3 instruct on this and go together, but some such as you deny the truth that is written and attempt to taint the meaning of the written Word of God. Jesus picked 12 men to give his most in depth instructions to teach others and they followed His example in who should be church elders and passed that teaching to other apostles such as Paul. (We also know the betrayer was replaced with ANOTHER MAN and even the one who was not selected but considered for selection was A MAN.)

    Your claims are a promotion of out of order behavior, so it’s not far fetched to tie it with other incorrect efforts. The groups that now have homosexuals in the pulpit put women there first. Debating either group involves the exact same methods.

    • LRC said

      What about Priscilla? Lydia?Eunice? Churhes were in peoples’ homes.. .Paul sent letters mentioning these women. If they were not the ones teaching / preaching in the home churches of the NT, wouldn’t Paul be rude in neglecting to send greetings to the actual “Pastors” of those flocks? The very fact is, Paul DOES acknowledge women of these churches as leaders.

  54. Diane said

    Ic, there are homosexuals in gatherings led by christian men, Arab fundamentalist, cults etc.

    Deborah was a leader of God’s people.
    Deborah was a Prophet of God
    (before or after the coming of Christ makes no difference).
    you have no idea how she went about judging; your attempts to reduce Deborah’s role are purposely misleading… but what do you care about that.

    Phoebe was presiding over the church at Cenchrea.

    You properly fit the category that Jesus calls “blind guides” and “hypocrits”

    ————–

    Comments disregarding truths in the Gospel of Jesus Christ and the Promise of the Father, and comments distorting or ignoring the Work of God in His female servants will be ultimately responded to by Christ Himself. End of discussion for me

  55. Diane,

    (before or after the coming of Christ makes no difference).

    Oh but it does. Because I’m talking about church leaders and you’re trying to slap in any name you can find.

    you have no idea how she went about judging; your attempts to reduce Deborah’s role are purposely misleading… but what do you care about that.

    I said regarding Deborah:

    She did not even go into the streets making public judgments as male prophets such as Jonah.

    And I suggest you read Judges 4:4-5. She would judge people who came to her and visit others at times, but never would she do things as someone like Jonah would do. Her passing judgment was done in a far more reserved manner. There was a difference, however as I said she was not a church elder. And scripture explicitly notes church elders are to be men and women are not to teach and hold authority over men in the CHURCH. So your whole effort to claim Deborah as a church elder is moot. The office of prophet is already closed and we have scripture, so there is no more Deborah. Scripture says no women over men in teaching or authority.

    Phoebe was presiding over the church at Cenchrea.

    Well if she was presiding over the church at Cenchrea it’s interesting that she would be the one doing running for Paul. Elders were not the ones who would do that. But even rather secular sources note she was a deaconess, not an elder. The Bible says she was a servant of the church at Cenchrea, not an elder. She was doing something not carried out by an elder in carrying a letter for Paul. She was very much what may be called a deaconess, that is all.

    I think all I’ve provided proves you to be the blind one and you’ve not shown any example of hypocrisy on my part.

    You’ve got nothing but ego and name calling. No real Bible proof, because you can’t reference 1 Timothy 2 and 1 Timothy 3 in truth. A stiff necked woman, refusing to embrace the authority of scripture.

    I leave you rejected.

    • LRC said

      I have yet to see a man “lay down his life” in the context and setting of authority, power, headship, etc. Why does it continuously say that , “Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy is the person who takes part (shares) in the first resurrection! Over them the second death exerts no power or authority, but they shall be ministers of God and of Christ (the Messiah), and they shall rule along with Him a thousand years.” Apparently, according to scripture, if I partake in the resurrection, I will rule WITH Him in Heaven. There is no order of man in Heaven, we are one in His Spirit. I would much rather be “under the authority” of a person who can lead with humility and grace than a self righteous, self proclaimed minister of God’s Word. The headship patriarchial rule also nullifies the fact that women ARE responsible for their deeds & actions. There is a reason why Christ made Adam & Eve to rule over all creation TOGETHER. It was marred by the fall. Why, if you are saved & brought out of the old law (remember, God, through sending Jesus as His only Son abolished the old law), would you seek to go back to it & out of Christ’s life which He offered freely? Is it because Paul had two different churches that were running amok that he gave specific order for a specific time & circumstance? Do we not also make rules for certain times and certain circumstances that are not universal principles that are based on an extreme circumstance? God even told His people in the OT that He would not punish them forever or hold them under His strict law, but that He would send His Son to save all. Are Gentiles unfit for leadership in the Church because there were only Rabbitical Jewish ministers at that time?
      Consider whether this is a man-made order versus a God-made order, and who you are placing under bondage. This is not an ew issue by any means.

  56. John Kaniecki said

    IC,

    Hi hope you are well.

    It is amazing how people just can’t read a sentence and come to an understanding. First TBM and then Diane. TBM says the bishop doesn’t need to be married though it says he does and also has to have children. Now Diane refuses to recognize the position of elder despite it says that they are to be ordained.

    What do these two have in common?
    They are both promoting an agenda instead of humbley going to the Word of God. It is the same with the JW’s, Mormons and many many others. All of Diane’s argument is that Deborah was a judge. There is no dispute about that but that has nothing to do with the position of elder.

    TBM quotes so called ‘church’ fathers.

    Want to get an honest answer on how to read the scripture. Have a ten year old child read it and ask them if that means you have to be a married man to be an elder. Children are honest and can understand without bias.

    Love,

    John

  57. Vernon R. said

    I never cease to be amazed at the disregard for scriptural authority on this and many other issues concerning believers. Is it chauvinistic to simply agree with God? Jesus? Paul? I’ve seen an ungodly hunger for pulpit authority by women (and some men) who do not submit to total scriptural authority. Question: Would this be such a controversial issue if there weren’t so many false, unfaithful male church leaders?

  58. Hi John,

    They are both promoting an agenda instead of humbley going to the Word of God.

    Well you’ve said it best there brother. I must admit I was once on that road myself. Making the verses into whatever agenda was fitting for the circle I was in at a given moment. But once I read the words instead of trying to apply a viewpoint somebody else told me before I read, I realized not only was there an issue with women claiming to be elders, but many many (I meant to say “many” twice) men claiming it do so wrongly also. Such as places that claim to have a “young pastor who is looking for a wife”. Never married, never showed he could even run a household well, we don’t know if he can handle a child under his own roof, never mind an adult trouble, yet allowed to claim they will manage the affairs of the House of God. And then there is the “one wife” matter, that many don’t want to accept, given many popular people claiming to be pastors have had several wives after the time they said they believed in Jesus. (Anybody know what number wife Donnie Swaggart is on currently?) And even if someone does not feel the “one wife” statement applies rightly, there is the “blameless” (above reproach) statement that still applies. If a man’s marriage falls apart, it’s a reproach on him because the man is the head of the house, even if the woman did wrong, the man as the head must assume the blame that his house fell apart on his watch. Just as the head of any venture must assume blame if things fail, even when it was somebody else with them who did the really bad things. The church is not supposed to have elders with “baby mama drama”. I had to change my position on a whole lot of things once I stopped accepting the popular opinion and opted to believe the Word of God has it right as is written. It certainly made me less popular with a lot of “church” folks, but I quickly learned many are using “church” for personal entertainment and other self serving purposes.

    Hi Vernon R.

    Question: Would this be such a controversial issue if there weren’t so many false, unfaithful male church leaders?

    Well it’s not like the false unfaithful males can tell anybody else they’re unfit to be an elder. And those false unfaithful guys are the ones with the crowds.

Leave a Reply

Fill in your details below or click an icon to log in:

WordPress.com Logo

You are commenting using your WordPress.com account. Log Out / Change )

Twitter picture

You are commenting using your Twitter account. Log Out / Change )

Facebook photo

You are commenting using your Facebook account. Log Out / Change )

Google+ photo

You are commenting using your Google+ account. Log Out / Change )

Connecting to %s

 
%d bloggers like this: