Jesus Christ Is Lord

That every knee should bow and every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father!


Posted by Job on February 14, 2008

(2 Peter 2:1, Lamentations 2:14, Jeremiah 14:14, Matthew 24:24)

“For false Christs and false prophets will arise and show great signs and
wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect.” JESUS CHRIST

NO WE CAN’T! The cult of B. Hussein Obama. Remember I told you there would
be a revival in this nation this year. Well, before we see a true spiritual
revival that will bring millions to faith in Christ and help lead this
nation back to God and Biblical values, there is going to be a “faux
revival” led by the latest preacher of false hope, B. Hussein Obama. Obama
is running for the Democratic Party’s nomination to try and become the next
President of the United States. He is preaching a gospel of change and
hope. Thousands are flocking to his campaign rallies and becoming
emotionally charged as this “political evangelist” preaches about hope and
change. The problem is he is a false prophet and no true follower of Christ
can follow or support this “false messiah of hope and change!”

Very troubling to me has been watching the “revival-like” atmosphere
surrounding B. Hussein Obama’s campaign for the Presidency. Like all false
prophets, it is a false gospel with lots of smoke and mirrors. I think
people would be troubled to know that the flowery rhetoric flowing from
Obama isn’t coming from his heart, but from a 26-year-old white man named
Jon Favreau. Favreau is the author of those flowery and dynamic hope and
change messages you hear, not B. Hussein Obama. Obama has even had some
input from legendary JFK speechwriter Ted Sorensen who is now 79.

Want another interesting fact about B. Hussein Obama. As someone who has
done live TV every night for 5 yrs, if you watch Obama, he only gives those
stirring hope and change speeches when he has a teleprompter so he can READ
HIS LINES! This man is a complete fraud! When he is without a
teleprompter, he resorts back to his typical stump speech on the issues.
This “false messiah” of hope so many are clinging to, isn’t even the author
of his message of false hope and is incapable of delivering those passionate
speeches without a teleprompter!

Before I get any further into this Devotional today, sadly I have to stop
and address something I have already been accused of just by announcing I
would be dealing with Obama today. Anyone who has ready my Devotionals
knows that I am not in any way shape or form a racist. You need to go my
Devotional archives on the website and search for the
Devotionals I have written on racism. The fact is, half of the Board of my
Ministry are African-American men. Of the 2.4 million subscribers to the
Daily Devotional, there are Whites, Blacks, Asians, Hispanics, people of
every race in all parts of the world.

In the first 3 years of my ministry when I preached in over 500 churches
around the country, I mainly started out preaching in black churches in
Chicago where I was based, through doors opened by the men on my Board. One
of my dearest friends is the legendary civil rights leader Dr. Clay Evans of
Fellowship Baptist Church in Chicago. Dr. Evans has always referred to me
as his “white son.” He honored me by letting me preach his broadcast
service from the “Ship” as it is known on several occasions, one of the only
white preachers to have done so.

What I am sharing about Obama today has NOTHING to do with the color of his
skin. It has everything to do with his stand on the spiritual issues of our
day and the fact he takes stands in complete opposition to the Bible and
God! That is why a true follower of Christ can’t support B. Hussein Obama.
You don’t need to look any further than his stand on abortion. Forget his
weasel rhetoric. The FACT is, B. Hussein Obama supports a woman’s right to
kill her baby. Obama supports the legalized slaughter of babies. There is
really nothing more a true follower of Christ needs to know about this man.
But that is not all. B. Hussein Obama also supports redefining God’s Holy
Institution of Marriage to include people who choose to engage in deviant
sexual acts with others of the same sex. How can a true follower of Christ
support a man who wants to change God’s definition of this most holy union
of marriage?

What is most troubling to me is that B. Hussein Obama claims to be a
Christian. Only God knows his heart, but Jesus said, “If you love me, you
will obey me,” not live in rebellion to me. If B. Hussein Obama is truly a
follower of Christ, how can he vote to support the legalized slaughter of
babies and the redefining of God’s Holy Institution of Marriage? Let me
dispel an Internet rumor. Obama is NOT a Muslim. However, he did grow up
in Muslim culture. Your life experiences shape who you are, so while not
being a Muslim, he is no doubt sympathetic to the issues Muslims face.

Let me be blunt. Islam is a false religion of hate and death, a 1400 year
old lie dreamed up by a murdering pedophile named Mohammed. They have a
very real goal of destroying this nation and all who live here who refuse to
convert to their false religion. While those who seek to make Islam more
acceptable and mainstream talk about peace, the fact is, ALL Muslims are
guided by the same book of fantasies Mohammed inspired, the Qu’ran. Their
book clearly calls for the DEATH of all infidels, and that means all
Christians and anyone else who won’t convert. They routinely execute
Christians in other parts of the world, and would do so here in a heartbeat
if they could get away with it. While B. Hussein Obama is NOT a Muslim, due
to his life experiences, he is clearly sympathetic to Muslims, the ones who
want to see this nation destroyed and all who live here who won’t convert to
their false religion dead!

B. Hussein Obama is part of this new movement I have warned you about, the
Religious Left. In case you have been sleeping, there is a new group of
people in our nation who call themselves the “religious left.” This is a
relatively new term so you may not be familiar with it. That is why I felt
it was so critical to take the time today to insure you not only understood
what it means, but who actually makes up this new group of people. Forty
years ago, this group didn’t even exist. They have actually evolved and
grown tremendously over the past decade.

The “religious left” is made up of people who identify themselves as
Christians and hold strong religious beliefs as well as sharing left-wing
ideals. Obviously, this group has risen up in opposition to those who have
been tagged the “religious right” or the “Christian right.” The “Christian
right” is that group of Bible-believing Christians who are politically
active and seek to elect to office those candidates who hold to Biblical
values on the key spiritual issues of our day that are also political

These would be issues like abortion and life related matters, gay marriage,
family issues, the proliferation of the pornography industry, and the drive
to remove God from the public square. Those in the “religious left” actually
take an anti-Biblical position on these issues and are also heavily involved
in the ecumenical movement, environmental issues, opposing war for any
reason, world hunger, and social issues like healthcare, welfare, and

Interesting that B. Hussein Obama’s first bill as a United States Senator
was a world hunger relief bill that they are trying to ramrod through as we
speak. This would force the United States to pay apx. $900 billion MORE
than we already spend on world hunger. While we have to do our best to feed
the hungry, I guess Obama never read where Jesus said, “The poor you will
have with you always.”

There is nothing wrong with pursuing these noble social issues, Believers
should be more involved on those fronts. The problem with this group is
their anti-Biblical position on the key spiritual issues of our day and
their involvement in these ecumenical movements that require you to set
aside the Absolute Truths of the Bible. However, they support the legalized
slaughter of babies, redefining marriage to include men with men and women
with women, perverting the family by brining children into homes with
homosexual parents, and embrace ecumenical fellowships with all of the cults
and false religions of the world. They deny the inspiration and inerrancy of
the Bible, have rejected God’s Word for the Absolute Truth it represents,
and have bought into the lie of the world that there are “many roads that
lead to God.” These are the people who make up the “religious left!”

B. Hussein Obama’s church is the liberal Trinity United Church of Christ in
Chicago, pastored by the racist Dr. Jeremiah Wright. Wright preaches a
message of black separatism and is a racist in every sense of the word. The
UCC is one of the most liberal denominations there is. They ordain
practicing homosexuals, support slaughtering babies, and preach the social
Gospel of the religious left, having abandoned the inspiration of the Word
and preaching the true Gospel of Jesus Christ. The queen of the New Age
witches, Oprah, also calls Trinity UCC her church.

A modern day foe of God, Barry Lynn of Americans United for Separation of
Church and State is ordained thru this liberal and ungodly denomination.
Lynn has made it his life’s work to try and silence and destroy true works
of God, and last year came after Liveprayer for my stand on satanic cult
member Mitt Romney, by trying to get the IRS to take away our tax-exempt
status. His efforts failed because we did nothing wrong. The fact is, Lynn
has tried to get the IRS to revoke the tax-exempt status of over 70 churches
and ministries over the years, and has failed to be successful even once!

I love you and care about you so much. Revival is currently sweeping the
land, however, it is not the spiritual revival that will be coming very
soon. This current revival is a political one that has transcended into an
emotional charged movement of false hope and promises. The leader of this
cult-like movement is B. Hussein Obama. He is no more the next savior of
this nation than I am the next great heart surgeon, and I hate blood! I am
not even going to talk about his inexperience and the great peril all
Americans will be in with this “child” at the helm in today’s complex and
dangerous world of terror and global economics. I’m not even going to talk
about the fact he is the most liberal of the 50 United States Senators and
what his Presidency would do to this nation. I am most concerned with
people who know the Lord getting caught up in and becoming part of this
movement of hype and false hope.

My friend, the only true hope is Jesus. The only true answers are found in
the Word of God. God gave us in black and white in the Bible, specifically
how to deal with all of the issues in our lives and in this world. More
troubling than anything is that Obama won’t even speak in specifics, only
flowery platitudes. Once you tear away the hype, the smoke and mirrors, all
you are left with is empty rhetoric that inspires people and makes them feel
good, but leads them nowhere. However, it is empty since it doesn’t give
them any real direction. Hope is the greatest gift one person can give to
another, however, if that hope is in anything else but the Lord and His Word
it is false hope.

What we do know about B. Hussein Obama is that he supports the slaughtering
of innocent babies and trying to redefine God’s Holy Institution of Marriage
to include those who choose to engage in deviant forms of sex. Both
positions clearly in rebellion to the Lord and to the Bible. Obama, like
each follower of Christ has to heed the words of Jesus and decide which
master he is going to serve. You can only serve one. I am challenging you
today to decide who YOU are going to follow, B. Hussein Obama, the most
recent false messiah, or Jesus Christ, the true Messiah!!!

In His love and service,
Your friend and brother in Christ,
Bill Keller

die one day.  At that moment, you will either spend eternity with the Lord or
be cast into everlasting darkness forever separated from God your creator.
To know for certain you will be forever with Jesus, go to:

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  1. Leonard Canton said

    You’re about five kinds of @#$%^&$, Keller.

  2. volney said

    Canton’s got it right.

  3. Tracy said

    “You’re about five kinds of @#$%^&$, Keller.”

    Just five?

  4. Junior said

    As the late Rick James was quick to remind us, “Cocaine’s a @#$% of a drug.”

  5. Job, it looks like the Obama fans are worse than the Romney fans. Proving Obama is a false christ, that many see as their hope.

    Hope only comes in the Lord Jesus Christ, not a politician and not a government of man.

  6. Job said

    Independent Conservative:

    Oh, most of these fellows are being sent here by this anti – Christian blog that linked to my site:
    They are having real fun with my spiritual warfare content in particular as you might guess. Ah well, at least they are being exposed to the gospel of Jesus Christ crucified and raised from the dead.

  7. Charles D. said

    My Brothers? Job and IC?

    Okay, we are well beyond the point of mutual respect, though, we disagree on a few things here and there. AND, this is coming without the benefit of having read the entire post which I simply will not do and is nothing new for me as I have explained on occassion.

    I think the assertion of “false chirst,” is totally absent of credibility does’t matter where it comes from. It is strictly a matter of trying to state idolatry in a simplistic form. Why not “false dollar,” “false gold,” or any other than that replaces God in one’s system of belief and servitude.

    Okay, fellas, I think you knew perfectly well that such comments would certainly draw my eyre, and I will stand on my unadultrated faith in the Living Savior, and Him crucified with any manjack that has EVER graced these pages, or, ever will. More importantly, I think my Savior, were He in the habit of injecting Himself into the affairs of mankind everytime, we in our fallen state continued to engage our mouth, before engaging the good brain He so graciously endowed most of us with (current and previous Paul supporters excluded by me, maybe not by God…), would bare out the fact that no one and nothing have a higher place in either my faith in or allegiance to than Him, and Him crucified!

    I am a Obama supporter of the highest order, has been since day one. He doe not replace my Savior, nor are they in the same category and never will be. Okay, I can attack man, especially, sinful man in ways that maybe, neither Christ or Obama WOULD (didn’t say COULD, said WOULD), but know this one thing, try and mix politics and religion, for whatever reason and I will throw down with ya. And by “ya” I mean Keller, and any other manjack, who not unlike me, put on one leg at a time, scratches his head, and have oxidation releases the same as any other man on earth.

    Quit it now…it’s a slippery slope folks – you won’t enjot the ride.


  8. Well you convinced me that I should support Obama. Anyone who can get your panties into such a twist has got to be good. But the ‘m a atheist, bi-sexual Trans-women who considers both the bible and the koran indifferent works of fiction at best.

  9. Luke said

    I see you are trying to win the award for most repetition of the phrase “B. Hussein Obama” on a single webpage, an extremely cynical and transparent move for a political hack playing the role of a religious leader. How hard is it to use the man’s first name, if only as a sign of the basic respect accorded a fellow human?

    Your open contempt for your fellow Christians on the liberal side is disgusting, and notably un-christian.

    You write that the religious left is “heavily involved in the ecumenical movement, environmental issues, opposing war for any reason, world hunger, and social issues like healthcare, welfare, and education”–as if those are bad things! I seem to have missed the parts of the Bible where Jesus preaches the virtues of preemptive warfare, or the economic benefits of colonialism, or the sin of public financing, or the importance of destroying each other based on religious beliefs. I do seem to recall the parts explicitly against war and killing, and in favor of assistance to the poor, the needy, etc. What exactly is your objection to support for “environmental issues”? Do you not think we have an obligation to pass on to our children and descendants a world that is as good or better than when we received it? Or is there something in the Bible I missed where Jesus exhorts us to put financial gains of corporations and their shareholders over good stewardship of the gifts we have received?

    You rip into Obama for supporting abortion, but then you deride him for “trying to ramrod through” a bill that “would force the United States to pay apx. $900 billion MORE
    than we already spend on world hunger.” How exactly do YOU decide which of Jesus’s commands must be obeyed, and which you can safely ignore? You take the all-too-predictable anti-christian move of hiding behind Jesus’ words as an excuse for miserliness, pretending that feeding the hungry and taking care of the least of your brethren were not his most heavily-emphasized directives. And you forget the context where Jesus said, “The poor you will have with you always”: He was talking about appreciating an act of kindness before his own imminent death rather than making a poor woman feel guilty for not donating her funds to the poor! That is hardly a rule that we must never make people less poor, or that the poor should not be supported, or that we should just give up because the situation is hopeless, or that the government has no role to play in improving conditions around the world.

    Your statement that “There is nothing wrong with pursuing these noble social issues, Believers
    should be more involved on those fronts,” is meaningless when right-wing christians NEVER TAKE A STAND ON THESE ISSUES! Instead, I see so-called christians pretending that God enshrined America with special status in the world without any duties to the rest of the world, and that capitalism and the free market are somehow religious ideals.

    How many new wars and how much further destruction of our world’s environment can you justify to yourself while self-assured that it is OK because at least you don’t support the “legalized slaughter of babies” or “redefining marriage,” or “embrac[ing] ecumenical fellowships”?

    I just don’t get your calculus, brother.

  10. Brother Charles D, I have an extensive collection of posts that detail why you might want to reconsider your embracing of Barack Hussein Obama.

    We Don’t Have to Wonder What Barack Hussein Obama Would Do as President.

    Barack Hussein Obama and the Art of Looking Good! And Let’s Look at Hillary Clinton’s Donors.

    How Barack Hussein Obama Plans to Spread Pro-Homosexual Heresy to Prodomently Black Churches and Related Items to Beware of.

    Barack Hussein Obama and the False Apostles Ron and Hope Carpenter. Political Kingdom Building.

    Al Sharpton Again Fronts Like He is Against Trash Hip Hop and Democratic Presidential Candidates Line up to Join Him.

    Barack Hussein Obama’s Black Supremacist Idolater Pastor, Rev. Dr. Jeremiah A. Wright Jr.

    Stumbling Out of the Gate. Barack Hussein Obama Says Troops Lives Were “Wasted” in Iraq.

    Barack Hussein Obama, Claims Christianity, but Prefers a Secular Political Party.

    Barack Hussein Obama versus Jesus Christ

    Barack Hussein Obama Pays Homage to Jesse Jackson’s Anti-Semitic 1984 Presidential Campaign.

    The Source of Problems That Plague America Today.

    Barack Hussein Obama Jr. and the Shady Land Deal (*UPDATED*)

    More on Barack Hussein Obama Jr. and the Shady Land Deal. Plus Other Ties to Tony Rezko and More.

    More on the Fraud Named Obama

    Barack Hussein Obama and Anti-Semitism

    Barack Hussein Obama, a Muslim Trained Advocate of Child Murder, Gay Adoption, Porn and Thugs!

    Over Hyped Barack Obama. Another Liberal Posing Pseudo-Conservative.

    Well I’ve got others, but I’ll leave it at that.

  11. Charles D. said

    Hey Brother

    What I meant by my earlier comment is the fact that you Job and myself have reached a level of understanding that we can disagree and still respect each of the other’s opinion, ideas, or operating philosophies. Then, accept without resorting to donnybrooks which we each have engaged mightily without profit or advancing in any meaningful way. With that in mind, I say as follows:

    By the time I lend my support, both, financial, moral, and sweat, I will have already done sufficient due diligences to clearly recognize the precise degree and cost which my support might exact were I too be mistaken. In my book, those are fundamental to mature manhood.

    Without hesitation I cannot be more clear, I am so much an Barack Obama (as a presidential candidate) supporter, and will remain one, assuming that God grant me the years, for at least, through January 21, 2009. After that, as President for so long as he serves, then as a man for such a time as he earn and deserve my support. I seem to recall, when those on the Huckabee, Romney, and Paul bandwagon, dropped their support for reasons that were abundantly clear to me for quite a while and I teased them unmercifully on these pages and elsewhere. Then their were those who chose candidates and for whatever reason, their candidacies lasted about as long as a 100mm cigarette would last (without inhaling I might add), results: another one bite the dust. Had I walked lock-step with any of the other ones….., well I’ve never been much of a follower without ideas, so those were never options because “I don’t book losers!”

    Now! If my vast drum beating and chest thumping weren’t apparent before: LET THE WORD GO FORTH: Anything, evidence or otherwise, either written, drawn, signed, or depicted proclaiming anything other than the fact that not only is Barack Hussein Obama, the best of all candidates in the race for President of the United States of America; not only that, but also that he is a remarkable role model, has done more for young people and old alike, to restore a modicum of hope and inspiration in what we have as remnants of a political system in a (supposedly) democratic society, then there is NOTHING short of a word from on high, that have a fraction of a chance of me changing my mind or support or respect. And any and all efforts to change that, would be better spent reading an extra verse of scripture, helping a less fortunate brother/sister, loving his/her neighbor, or really putting in some sweat-equity towards the Great Commandant.

    By these words, I consider my position on the matter of Mr. Obma candidacy crystal clear. I do not expect continued threads on Barack to decrease in the slightest, in fact, as he goes forth (even at his current pace) (Barack is bringing smoke yall), I expect both, supporters, haters, and jealousy merchants to appear here, it’s just a matter of separating the wheat.

    Hey! It is what it is! If he could be stopped by you or me, heck, I don’t want to and I won‘t speak for you; but I will say this one thing: if he could be stopped, call Hillary FAST, there is no limit to what she would pay and I mean no limit. You might recall Vince Foster don‘t you? And she never served a day. So, which lucky candidate is getting your vote? Hope you don’t say “I’m not voting because that will open you up to all kinds of abuse from the left as well as the right.


  12. Coram Deo said

    In my opinion the self-proclaimed “Evangelical Christian Conservative” political activists are an even sorrier lot – and a worse spiritual den of thieves – than those currently committing Obama-nation within B. Hussein’s cult of personality.

    At least the political cultists have the excuse of Biblical ignorance on their side whereas, on the other hand, the Evangelical Christian Conservative political activists ought to know better!

    “The idea that the Christian gospel can mix with or blend with any other religious system in any way is absolutely wrong. You cannot mix the gospel with Roman Catholic or orthodox sacramentalism. You cannot mix the gospel with liberalism. You can’t mix the gospel with Mormonism, or the religion of the Jehovah’s Witness, or Christian Science or any other religion. You cannot mix the gospel even with the religion of Judaism. The gospel is absolutely exclusive. It mingles with no other religion. It accommodates no other religion. In fact, it replaces all other religion. The gospel is absolutely exclusive. Now this needs to be emphatically understood in a time which exalts diversity of belief, tolerance of religion, pluralism, inclusivism and even universalism which essentially says we’re all headed the same direction. Now we know there is one God, there is one authoritative book, the Bible. There is one Redeemer of souls, the Lord Jesus Christ. There is one gospel, the gospel of grace and faith. And that singularity of the Christian gospel means that any intrusion that mixes or alters the singularity of the gospel renders it void, nullifies it. It stands alone“. —John MacArthur

    “It pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe” (1 Corinthians 1:21)

    Christians are not called to compromise the Word of God by adulterating it with the hodge podge spirituality and so-called wisdom of this fallen world. In fact to compromise the infallible, immutable, eternal, and plenary counsel of the One True and Living God as contained uniquely within the Holy Bible is the very pinnacle of satanic hubris and wickedness!

    And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book. (Revelation 22:19)

    It’s not humble, or noble, or reflective to question God Almighty!

    It’s downright sinful.

    It’s wicked.

    It’s an abomination.

    The stern and crystal clear warning above from Revelation 22:19 ought to cause those who would proclaim the Word of God to fall on our faces in holy reverence, awe, and terror before the Infinite Creator and Judge of the universe. Those who preach, teach, and reach with the Eternal Gospel ought to do so with fear and trembling fully realizing that they are directly accountable to King Jesus alone for each and every word they utter. Christians are responsible for properly handling God’s truth, defending His Holy Name, and declaring His divine judgment upon this sin sick and dying world.

    My brethren, be not many masters, knowing that we shall receive the greater condemnation. (James 3:1)

    So why is it that so many within today’s broader professing church willfully choose to corrupt God’s unchanging Word by perverting it into a man-centered, feel-good, message of self-esteem?

    Or why is the whole counsel of God defiled by preaching promises of health, wealth, and material prosperity as though God’s primary concern is the kind of clothes one wears, the type of car one drives and the number of bedrooms in one’s new upscale suburban home?

    Again why is the eternal gospel of grace reviled by enshrining the highest post-modern ideal – UNCERTAINTY – above the ancient Biblical truth that not only can God be known, but that He has personally endeavored to clearly reveal Himself to mankind by His Holy Word?

    And last – but not least – why are so many self-professed evangelical Christians utterly preoccupied with the soteriology of Gnostic governance and completely given over to busily sacrificing their energy, finances, lives, and even ministries to the service of the Baal of political expediency?

    Shouldn’t Christians go to God’s Word alone to discover His solution to the problems of our day and the solution to the culture? For in God’s Word we find that the Eternal Gospel is the solution to the culture! There’s nothing new or fancy here! God’s plan, His strategy hasn’t changed one bit and not one jot or one tittle of His Word needs modification to make it “relevant” or to make it “work” neither yesterday, today, nor tomorrow. This is because it is the ETERNAL GOSPEL! It changes not!!

    In point of fact it is ONLY the Eternal Gospel that changes men; GOD FORBID IT SHOULD EVER BE THOUGHT TO BE THE OTHER WAY AROUND!!

    Oh! How far modern Christianity has fallen from the Lord Jesus Christ! Surely men have made gods of themselves and perverted the ETERNAL GOSPEL in favor of a watered down, man-centered, cotton candy, sinless, bloodless, compromised, Nerf theology that’s fit for nothing! The modern non-gospel embraced by vast swaths of professing Christianity is no gospel at all!

    It’s a tool of political expediency!

    It’s wide tent of paganized spirituality!

    It’s an idolatrous abomination and offense to the One True and Living God!

    So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth. (Revelation 3:16)

    Look, the Holy Bible contains God’s strategy for changing the culture – preaching the gospel!

    The Holy Bible contains God’s strategy for changing men’s hearts – preaching the gospel!

    The Holy Bible contains God’s strategy for making foolish the wisdom of this world – preaching the gospel!

    The Holy Bible contains the cure for the culture – preaching the gospel!

    So why is it that so many within the broader professing church itself insist on corrupting the simplicity of the gospel by blending it, marginalizing it, ignoring it, assimilating it, being ashamed of it, hiding it, twisting it, perverting it, allegorizing it, spiritualizing it, and thereby outright denying it?

    And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie; That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness. (2 Thess. 2:11-12)

    Now the Spirit speaks expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils (1 Timothy 4:1)

    They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate (Titus 1:16)

    “God has chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God has chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty” (1 Corinthians 1:27)

    According to the Holy Bible the preaching of the gospel is God’s chosen strategy to change men’s sinful hearts and the church is not permitted to modify it. Men are not permitted by God to substitute their own strategies in place of His own holy counsel!

    But clearly many today have modified it greatly and as previously mentioned many professing Christians seem to believe the solution to the culture is to be found in the realm of politics instead of the Word of God. These poor, misguided souls think it’s possible to redeem society through political action and legislation. This is sheer folly and represents the Eternal Gospel being co-opted for political expediency. This is a totally unacceptable compromise on the part of those who would claim Christ.

    Human government is NOT your friend.

    Human government is NOT the church’s friend.

    Human government is NOT the friend of God.


    The sooner professing Christians as individuals and the broader church in general realize this fact the sooner they can begin extricating themselves from the back of the beast.

    Now this is not to say that the Christian political activists are necessarily wrongheaded in their moral affirmations, but they are misguided. In fact all Christians ought to be unified in full agreement with our mutual, corporate loathing of the sinful wickedness of our nation and our world which openly and brazenly manifests its utter depravity by rejecting God’s Holy Word in so many unspeakable ways.

    The problem with the Christian political activists is that they apparently remain unconvinced that God’s chosen strategy of preaching the gospel is a more effective remedy to the culture than a temporal political solution.

    Why have so many professing evangelical Christians been duped by this Satanic lie?

    Why are so many within the broader professing church seemingly convinced that the solution to America’s continued slide into moral decay is a political solution?

    Why after more than three decades of concerted political activism has the church still not realized that they’re LOSING GROUND in this fight?

    For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. (Ephesians 6:12)

    Yet in spite of the clear Biblical solution offered by God – which is preaching the gospel – many, many ministries continue to pour their human and financial capital into political lobbying. When did playing politics replace preaching the gospel as the effectual socio-cultural change agent? When was the church co-opted by this superstition?

    Politics is built on compromise. ANY politician, political science teacher, and in fact anyone who’s involved in politics whatsoever will and must affirm this undeniable fact. And there are certain things that are off limits within the political arena and genteel political discourse – and among those things are the exclusive claims of the Eternal Gospel! One isn’t going to be very successful in gaining sufficient political allies by stubbornly holding fast to the annoying habit of preaching Christ crucified and the narrow way. The complete exclusivity of the Christian truth claims makes it stand alone over against and apart from all other competing philosophies, ideologies, and worldviews!

    Is the true Body of Christ really so desperate for recognition by and identification with the vain imaginings, deceitful philosophies, and demonic powers of this fallen world that we’re willing to sell out Christ Himself in order to gain the praise of men? Are we so ashamed of the foolishness of preaching and the offense of the cross that we’re willing to abandon Christ’s absolutely authoritative and unique truth claims in order that we might borrow from and adorn ourselves with the worthless, so-called “wisdom” of the secular culture? Why is the broader professing church so willing – nay eager! – to bend the knee to the Baal of cultural relevance and grovel for the attention and affection of those who wield the temporal power of human government? When did the spirit of the age come to possess the professing church at large?

    In truth MANY IF NOT MOST of the political “co-belligerents” with whom the broader professing church shamefully plays the harlot do not have any love for or interest in the Eternal Gospel of the new covenant whatsoever. They utterly reject the exclusive claims of Christ. They deny the gospel. They are unregenerate unbelievers who are all too happy to use the money and resources of professing Christians and make merchandise of the church in order to further their own carnal, worldly ambitions.

    “…he who believes not is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.” (John 3:18)

    Listen, when your politics gets in the way of the exclusive truth claims of God Himself you have a problem. When the success or failure of one’s political agenda depends on holding together tepid alliances with all sorts of unbelievers then one finds that COMPROMISE on the uniqueness and exclusivity of Christ’s truth claims is required. And when a Christian finds himself willing to hide, stifle, or otherwise suppress God’s truth in unrighteousness for any reason then he finds that he is at enmity with Almighty Himself for that soul is found guilty of undermining the gospel!

    Friends, when a Christian is forced to offer up the Lord Jesus Christ Himself on the altar of political expediency then that is too high a price to pay! In this case for the true born-again Christian THERE ARE SIMPLY NO ENDS THAT CAN JUSTIFY THESE MEANS!!

  13. Charles D. said

    Hey Coram Deo:

    Haven’t seen many of your comments lately; I trust that you have been well and continually blessed. Nice read and interesting prospective.

    Do you participate in the political process at all? I guess the question I’m most interested in is: Do you intend to vote in the presidential elections and if so, which candidate will you vote, if that is something that you are willing to share?


  14. Devon said

    I have to say I am shocked at the lack of discernment here amongst alledged Christians?? Shocked….

    First….Liberal and Christian are the antithesis of one another …completely…it is like saying Jewish Nazi or Marxist Landlord….it simply is an impossibility…

    That being said…their are certain people that are more centrist and moderate liberals that I could perhaps believe are Christians!!

    HOWEVER…Obama is radically left…he is essentially a socialist/marxist…

    Is he a Muslim?? No..of course not…nor is he a Christian…His faith is radical liberalism…

    ALL you need to know about Obama from a Christ centered pov is that the man supports partial birth abortion!! Holy cow…that is like someone claiming to be a Christian 150 years ago and supporting Slavery (which some did) but you simply cannot have a Holy God within you and support such evil……it is impossible….

    That one issue alone makes Obama evil….it wouldn’t matter that he is radical left wing on every other issue…that he supports queer marriage…that he is completely ignorant on Islamic terrorism and what it means for America and the still Free West….

    He is the most radical left wing potential President you will ever have…so much so that he makes Hillary look attractive…

    And Shame on you folks that are voting for him just because he is Black…whatever happend to content of character?

    Are the other alternatives all that great? Hillary or McCain? Hardly…but they are better….and quite often in Democracy, as a Christian, you have to vote for the lessor of the evils…

    I am shocked at the lack of insight by the body of Christ vis a vis Obama….i expect the unregenerate and lost not to know any better..

    But for the redeemed, I expect much much more….

    The only positive if this naive ignorant man gets elected, well…I guess we can look forward to the Book of Revelations being all that more quickly fulfilled…

    God Help us all if Obama is elected…Thankfully…even when wicked men or women are elected, God is still in control…

    And for those that claim to be Christians….and actually see nothing wrong with Obama’s agenda, I would suggest getting down on your knees and repenting to Christ and making sure you are saved….

  15. Charles D. said

    Brother Devon:

    Most readers, at least those in my age group, would read your contribution intently, until we got to the part that says: “Liberal and Christian are the antithesis” then, we who actually remember when the term “liberal” became a descriptive term in the political arena, (and for your information, it was first employed by republicans and then coined into a “new” word by the media, the same as the “surge” is used now – as if the word did not exist before Iraq and does not mean the same now. Okay, so maybe this was before you were born); again, we would read at least that far, then, we would summarily dismiss you as a young upstart whose true intent is nothing more, than to push a vote Hillary’s way while demonstrating “mental jocularity while so doing. You have not failed. But drastically failed at both.

    You would do well to invest in a remedial political science book to go along with the book that you got these gems: “centrist” “Marxist” and “Obama is radically left…he is [essentially] a socialist/marxist…” why this accusation alone removes the covers from your psuedo-“i’mma christian” facade. You should be ashamed of yourself and repent. Hey, listen up; this is too darn easy, so, I’m going to respond to your next 2 comments in combination fashion and be through with you:

    “I am shocked at the lack of insight by the body of Christ vis a vis Obama….i expect the unregenerate and lost not to know any better..and “But for the redeemed, I expect much much more….”

    The only thing that is shocking to you, or, that would shock you are about 10 or 15 points to your IQ.; then, you might prove dangerous. Right now, you’re just plain pathetic in a funny sort of way. The result of What you expect and what you are actually working for are entirely different things. I assume heaven is within your expectation, when what you work towards might result in awakening opening your eyes in the pits of hell.

    So, Devon, who are you voting for? 🙂


  16. Charles D. said

    Devon? Can you see that

    Asking for God’s help [God Help us all if Obama is elected]
    then expressing a knowledge that God is in control “tankfully…even when wicked men or women are elected, [God is still in control…]”

    borders on vanity and faithlessness? I’m not asking if you meant to I’m asking if you can see this.

  17. Hey Charles,

    Then their were those who chose candidates and for whatever reason, their candidacies lasted about as long as a 100mm cigarette would last (without inhaling I might add), results: another one bite the dust.


    Yea some of us back who we feel is best, regardless of their chances of winning. Each man must decide for himself and live with his decision.

    So, which lucky candidate is getting your vote?

    I will be making that known once I’ve got a better view of the full field of candidates. I do know they don’t have an “R” or a “D” after their name, given those who remain of the 2 major political parties (cults). (Not saying it’s a cult for you, but for some it really is what they put their hope in life on.)

    Hope you don’t say “I’m not voting because that will open you up to all kinds of abuse from the left as well as the right.

    Even if I choose not to vote, the Lord’s will be done.

  18. Charles D. said

    Hey my Brother;

    How’s it going? Here it is not bad for a Saturday, matter of fact, not bad at all not having to either work or check in.

    You gotta follow the link I provided to Victor on another thread yesterday about a gentleman named Joe Vogler. You would have to go to the Juneau Empire weblink:
    then to their archives, plug in his name and you will find tons of info on him including pics which I cannot post his image here. More accurate and detailed info is to be found at the Fairbanks Daily News Miner weblink because he actually resided in Fairbanks and that‘s where he gave me my edumacation into patriotism and Alaskan politics, which there politics is a VERB, not a noun.

    Some considered him a loon, a crazy, stuck in the early 1800’s or before, I mean lot of people, maybe the majority. Thing is…regardless of what the papers or people said/say about him he was at the same time considered a genuine Alaskan hero. He started the Alaska Independent Party (AIP) and as the chairman of the party he appeared on every single ballot from AIP’s inception until the day he died which is not that far back. Equally, important, the one thing that you could bet on with deadly certainty, he would garner votes as well as respect votes, not only from AIP members, but from established Dems and Repub, other Independents, Greens, Libertarians AND because of Alaska’s vast land mass and wilderness, almost every MAJOR conservation group operated as and was recognized as a party also.

    Joe’s views on race and human rights matters were considered neither politically correct, popular or (hey! Native subsistence and the Alaska Native Claims Settlement Act opened up not only lively debates, but actual assaults and even murders), supported by scripture. He was honest, looked you eyeball-to-eyeball, said what he thought, and would not break his word to you; no matter the cost to himself.

    It was after the huge oil fields discoveries on the north slopes at (mostly) Prudhoe Bay; and the thieves in gov’t had problems counting to the hundred of billions of $$$, let alone dividing a majority of it amongst the chosen few (even the Hon Sen Stevens knew it was enough that he could safely close the largest cathouse that Fairbanks ever seen, either before or after), THEN, Joe’s AIP only platform was he advocated secession of Alaska from the United States. He was murdered in 1993 and buried in Canada, fulfilling his wish that he not be buried beneath the American flag.

    Just living there, enduring the harsh winters, fighting long periods of darkness, depression, and during the summer’s fighting mosquitoes the size of a small family pet; outsiders coming up for the sole reason of trying to steal a Permanent Fund Dividend check or legalized pot and the associated social ills and crime, few churches, fewer Christians, while maintaining a single thread of sanity and I say one have the experienced politics up close and personal. At least the right to choose (provided he/she can find) a candidate that rings his/her bell for whatever reason.

    Guess that’s my long-winded way of saying, even Christ never implied that “government” did not have a purpose, or, that it was necessarily evil. He did say: ..render unto to Caesar the things that are Caesar’s and to God those things that are Gods‘..” He intimated that government had to inherent powers, except that given by God. Said further that man should follow the dictates of government, so long as those dictates were not in contravention with the dictates, providence, and oracles of God. It is always MAN that turn government as well as other men evil and unfit to. Man’s inhumanity to man is and forever will be abhorrent to God. It happened with His Chosen and we are no better. Isaiah Chapters 42 and 43 says it better than I will ever be able to say or express it.

    Bottom line: My choice of Obama, even if it were a bad thing, but most assuredly it’s not; it is not a sin, AND even if that was, it is not a sin unto death; and that is fully supported by scripture. NOW, I want you to go straight down to that voting booth (you and Job also) and I want you each to vote for Barack TWO TIMES. 🙂




  19. johnkaniecki said



    Hope you are well and doing fine. We must remember that we are only pilgrims passing through this world. Read Romans 13 carefully. We must stay inside the system. Things like civil disobedience would not be in accord to God’s word. But if the government asks us to do something contradictory to the Word of God than we must refuse. You must remember that the same Paul who wrote these words was himself later executed by the government his was telling Christians to respect.


    Liberal and Christianity have a lot more together than fascism and Christianity. I opppose the slaughter of the unborn as much as I oppose the slaughter of the innocents in an offensive and oppressive war.

    Though I can’t get inside of your mind I think that your views have been dramatically influenced by the indoctrination this country attempts to inflict our youth with.

    You show my anywhere that the Bible teaches against Socialism. It condemns the “love of money as the root of evil.” That love of money is the basic thriving force of a lot of America. Where is the condemnation of that from our so called leaders. None, because their too busy getting their cut of the pie. It also says you must make a choice about who you worship God or mammon.

    Let me go further. Socialism is a better and more God pleasing system than Capitalism. You can trace the majority of the problems in the world to the European colonialism. Imperialism and it’s ramifications are atroscious.



  20. Here in TN, nice warm. I’m sure glad it’s been snowing in places like Afganistan and the Middle East instead of here 🙂 .

    The government is it’s own minister of God and who wins is placed there by Him as noted in Romans 13. Each word leader doing the part they were allowed to assume power for. All fulfilling their parts of scripture. Sometimes I’ve voted for the guy who wins, sometimes not. All I can say is the Lord’s will be done.

    God even placed Pharaoh in all his evil and enslavement of Jews, as a demonstration of His power.

    Romans 9:17 (King James Version)

    17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

    He knew how Pharaoh would act, even told Moses, even hardend Pharaoh’s heart, then freed His people from Pharaoh and in the end what would scripture be without it all having been done? Not what it is. It had to happen and we benefit from those lessons. It is a recorded testiment to us of the power of God.

    I think Romans 14 covers those who decide to vote versus those who may pass a section on their ballot versus those who choose not to vote at all.

    Anyway, I’m not voting for Obama 😛 .

  21. Charles D. said

    Hey Brother

    I would be disappointed if you weren’t armed with scripture, unlike some that thread through here. I know you must have said before about your spiritual background but right now I don’t recall. It is not that I disagree with you because I don’t. I do believe that there is so much covered by scripture that pertains to our discussion, and we each have yet to bring it up.

    For instance, I do know and believe that sometimes during the course of world affais, that God will use use a non-believer to accomplish His will. AND, if the “perfect” un-believer is not “right there” He will raise one up for that purpose. As I understand scripture, God announced that He was going to use Cyrus, as in Isaiah 43:3 {God gave other nations to Cyrus in exchange for returning the Jews to their homeland. Egypt, Ethiopia, and parts of Arabia had attacked Persia, and Cyrus defeated them.

    It stems partially from that and other OT and NT truths that I never concern myself with the person in office or seeking office. I’ve lived a long time and have personally witnessed evil seeds in office get their comeuppance when they act and sometimes before they can act contrary to God’s “specific purpose intended for that specific person to execute,” you know, pulling against the prick so to speak. Before I became as spiritually secured as I think I am now and if I were to fear one it would have been Ronald Regan and at one time Bush 41.

    Thing is…my support is sorta, kinda personal – I don’t really fear any of those that entered the race this time around. Doesn’t matter which of the majors wins, the party is going to control 1/3, the person is going to control 1/3 (of which a lil power goes to senior staffers whom the pres WILL ALWAYS HAVE TO DEPEND in order to avoid impeachment and worst), and 1/3 divided between special interest (which by the way are not always corps, banks, big oil and lobbyist) and those to whom he made promises to get there in the first place.

    I don’t mean to sound all knowing or anything, but maybe 3% of our citizentry actually know what the office of the presidency means or it’s limits. I kid you not. Often times folks forget about statutory officials that can actually tell the pres to stuff it. Go back to Maxwell D. Taylor days and see what he told the pres, or even Macarthur. During wartime what he did (under an astute and knowledgeable pres )would have landed him on the gallows. The 1-star Admiral who told Clinton that he was not welcomed aboard the USS Roosevelt (during Monica-gate) would have made him the slickest sleeve private in Fort Leavenworth.

    Okay, now the wife’s gonna make me study for SS tomorrow, so I have to be off for a few. Take care and have a good one, and don’t be so tight give Barack another look/see.
    teehee 🙂


  22. Frank Papp said

    Its clear Charles is a Pompas Ass!

  23. Charles D. said

    Listen Frank PappSmear, Vigicil Breathe:

    10….Count them…10. NOW! Eat my dust and any other delectables that appeal to you. Drive bu’s are my favorites! Now you operate at a deficet; any further comments from you will be taken for what they are: idle babbling from a no-counting malcontented suicide artist that have so little regard for his reputation (to say nothing of his dingus), that he chose to jump on poor lil ole ME!.

    🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂

    The chazter

  24. Charles D. said

    Before you attempt to correct my typos above, you might want to, in the words od the Godfather of Soul, “Now, Quit it,” while you have your behind intact and a reasonable portion of your mind. Teeheehee Teehee 🙂


  25. Frank Papp said

    Charles D
    Im figuring the D is for DA! Dum,Digbat,Dope,which one??

  26. anonymous said

    Ah well, at least they are being exposed to the gospel of Jesus Christ crucified and raised from the dead.

    From fake wanna pseudo-Christians like “Job” whose so-called faith is a perverse and pathetic shadow of Christianity? I think not.

  27. Job said


    Criticism from the likes of you actually inspires me. So keep it up!

  28. Charles said

    Frank PappSmear MonostatBreathe:

    Listen, and listen Good! You are so in over your head I feel sorry for you. This is your final warning! Stop while you’re intact! You have absolutely no idea what hell will befall you.

    You have already shown yourself to be somewhat slow, of less than below average intelligence,profess, no imply that you are a believer out of one side of your mouth, you feel comfortable having women fight your battles, not unlike a goat you’ll eat anything not tied down, you have bad feet and you don’t love Jesus.

    How am I doing? Is that you or what????

  29. believertiltheend said

    I just wanted to say that I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and that He came to this earth in a fleshly body to be offered up as the last sacrifice for the sins of all men. However it is up to each person to accept or reject the message of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Scriptures tell us who are true believers what will happen in the end of times. At one point, I worried about the elections and whether or not the person elected to lead our country would hold to what is taught in God’s word. I know that my worrying did not accomplish any good. The time that I spent worrying, I now spend in prayer. I pray for the people who do not know Jesus as their Lord and Savior. I do make a stand when the Lord leads me to do so. God’s Word states that those who truly love Him will be known by the fruit that they produce. I will close now. I will be praying for all who do not know my Lord and Savior. I have not always done this in the past. Is my life evidence that Christ lives in me? In Christ’s love, Brian

  30. Charles D. said

    Morning PappSmear

    Well to my woeld!! Hey M/Breathe what’s a “fake wanna?”
    sounds like something someone you know would say.

    Let’s see…you both are “drive by artists, both are not to bright, both ashamed of your names, both uses tired old worn-out phrases borrowed from others; hey Monostat was that you at #27 above using a nom de plume?


  31. Devon said

    Uh lost me at the ‘socialism is better then capitalism’ drivel…Believe you me..I know all about socialism….in my country, many of our backward provinces have been ruined by it…I am referring to Canada of course….as have many nations…thankfully I live in Alberta…the lowest taxed province in Canada…

    I think we can agree that both fascism and liberalism are evil…

    To Charles…

    I missed your reply…hmmmmm…

    I am using Liberal as in the modern usage of said term…not in as in Classic Liberalism from a lonnnnngggg time ago…

    Stay on topic…

    I would vote for the most conservative…I wish he/her were running in this election….

    It seems that you love to insult then actually reply to queries!

    Again…how can you square calling yourself a ‘christian’ and support a man like Obama who supports an anti christ agenda?


  32. Socialism is not better and the Bible does not teach Christians to seek a socialist state from government.

    Christians are not to love money, but show me a PRIVATE CHRISTIAN COMMUNE in scripture where they shared all they sold with gospel rejecting heathens? They didn’t even share with saints if one slacked off, 2 Thessalonians 3:10.

    Socialism continually places states at a level lower than that of an orderly capitalist system. I’m not saying capitalism is God’s system of economics, I’m saying orderly capitalism provides an overall better standard of living for the mass as a whole than socialism or communism. It’s proven fully throughout historical record.

    The Pilgrims at Plymouth tried communism for a time and it didn’t work out. They had to scrap the idea.

    If we are talking about a group of saints who have the Holy Spirit and seek to help one another, if they establish a commune amongst themselves, that is fine, THAT IS BIBLICAL. Private Christian communes were voluntary and anyone could opt out if they desired, government socialism has no opt-out option. The Private Christian commune model was usually carried out where there was need. Church history does not show that the saints in Rome kept communes, although they met and shared together in worship and food on Sundays. So not every early church group established a commune. No matter if you like a commune, it does not mean the model should be pressed to unrepentant heathens and it repeatedly fails when applied on a national scale.

    Government has to do what maintains a level of social order. Much more socialism in America would greatly disrupt order. How many more corporations need to feel they should move because of higher taxes before it is noticed that money going off shore does not work to the common good?

    Obama’s desires for business work against business. You don’t inspire corporations to create jobs by taxing them and shareholders or penalizing them if they hire people who are not Americans. I don’t like companies hiring people overseas any more than any of you, but penalizing them will only inspire them to move their full company headquarters overseas and then that is money lost and more jobs lost. You inspire companies to make jobs by making conditions more conducive for a company to grow. Lower taxes, less red tape.

    Much of the “jobs going overseas” battle was lost the moment America signed trade deals with nations like Mexico and China. So it’s now an ugly slide to the bottom, that socialism won’t fix.

  33. Charles said

    Okay Devon

    For the sake of my partner who also lives in Alberta I’m going to take it easy on you. Thats one of my favorite places in Canada. Do you know of Diversified Transportation? That’s me. I know you know of PWT

  34. John Kaniecki said


    Hope you are well and doing fine.

    Lets start with Acts 4:32. “And the multitude of them were of one heart and of one soul; neither said any of them the ought of the things was his own; but they had all things in common.

    Let’s look at this statement in context. The great majority of these new Christians were either converted on Pentecost (Acts 2:41) or added daily (2:47). So people had come from a long trip with money to cover their expenses. When they heard the Good News and became Christians they were together in one solid group. Since the majority of them hadn’t the resources they were aided by gifts freely given by the rest of the saints such as Acts 4:36-37. Yes communes must only be Christian because we are not to be yoked with unbelievers.

    Take this how you may.

    Futhermore there are old testament evidences that a society isn’t a pure capitalistic society. The practice of going through the fields only once and leaving the rest for the poor is one example. The second is the year of Jubilee where all the land would return to the original family.

    I would agree that liberalism is bad but certainly not on the level of fascism. The liberal would give out a portion of what they have and then feel content that they have done their part. As IC points out in 2 Thessalonians 3:10 “….if any would not work, neither should he eat.” One cannot be a Christian and argue with the Word of God. If I had the power perhaps the first thing I would do in this arena is to change welfare to workfare.

    Yes I would agree that liberalism is negative. But it doesn’t compare to the evil of Nazi Germany.

    I would argue that the Communism practiced by the natives in North America was the most advanced civilization ever to exist. Of course there are so many lies denying this but it is true.

    Just as the constitution guarentees certain liberties a few basic needs must be added to the list. Any child or person unable to work should have medical care. Anyone working should have medical care. Anyone working should receive a compensation over the poverty level.

    Once Christ returns the His government will be established. The ambitions to conduct wars or to form corporations to make huge monetary profits will dissapear. Instead people will work with one another to heal and build a society where none are disenfranchised.

    “Love worketh no ill to his neighbour; therefore love is the fufilling of the law.”

    “For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.” Galatians 5:14

    As we learn to Love as God intended us to Love one other things will happen in the world.



  35. John, I’m not going to debate any of your political views, we that would come circular kind of quick. But I wanted to know, of the communes that once existed in North America, that you say were a success, how many people were participating in a given commune?

    The effectiveness of communes usually breaks down the larger the group is. That is in historical cases of the unrepentant of course.

  36. Charles D. said

    John: a comment and a question.

    The North American Communes I’m most familiar with were 1) Not communes at all and 2) lots of pot smoking happened there among other things that counter the 10 Commandments.

    Question: Brother John, are you going to join me in voting for Barack Obama? If you do, then, I am convinced that IC will follow suit.

    Bless you John, you’re one of the good guys.


  37. @36




    Charles, I have a new post up today about your guy Obama. It’s not an effort to stop you from voting for him, but definitely something for you and others who claim the Lord’s name and support Obama (or any politician for that matter) to keep in mind.

    Barack Hussein Obama, Jr. Idolatry Hits New Heights! Pastor John P. Kee Makes a Gospel Styled Song Claiming “Hope” and “Brighter Day” in Obama.

  38. Charles D. said

    Alls I want to know is if you would be willing to let me put an Obama sign in your yard and if you will let me put a Barack sticker on dat beautiful license plate of yorn!



  39. John Kaniecki said


    Greetings brother. I’ve been struggling lately and prayers would be good.

    About voting for Obama I’ll tell you this I would never vore for McCain. I may vote third party fully knowing they have no chance of winning.

    I heard on the radio how McCain was talking about Al Queda in Iraq. Obama promply replied that there was no Al Queda in Iraq until after we invaded.

    Charles, persuade my why should I vote for Obama.



  40. Barack Hussein Obama, Jr. claims no Al Queda in Iraq until after we invaded, but where was Abu Musab al-Zarqawi living and who was giving him medical care before Iraq was invaded?

    Where Does Obama Stand on Iraq?

    John McCain vs. John McCain

    Oh, but I already said I’m not voting for either!

  41. Charles said

    Okay, John I will try to persuade you later tonight. I am however, praying for you and others also will be praying for you at a church program I am in tonight. Send me your email and I will send you a flyer in pdf format if you can open that.

    IC: (You future Obama voter you)! Abu Musab al-Zarqawi lived primarily in Jordan before the invasion. Of course he was quite busy causing trouble and killing people before that time. Then, he would have to “lay low” anyplace that he could.

    Please know that Obama is on the money there. And not bragging, you asked the right person. Even the worst of killers in Iraq, both, post and pre-invasion did not go by the Al Queda tag. In fact, Al Sadri was getting more press than Bin Laden. It was the fractured remnants of His militia that adopted the Al Queda lable to give them some lagitimacy and that is where the Al Queda in Iraq came from.

    Not intentially besmerching McCain, but he is still veiwing the world through his Vietnam 2-dimensional view. That could cost the American public dearly. Unfortunately, he has tied his future to Geo Bush and that will be his downfall. That and the sharp-for-real intelligence of Barack!

    No wonder you’re voting for him. John and I promise to follow you all of the way. IC you RULE!!!!!

    🙂 teehee teehee


  42. Job said

    John Kaniecki:

    Could you vote for any pro – choice candidate? By the way, the percentage of the black population in America was once growing faster than the percentage of the white population. After Bill Clinton began suing (primarily southern) states to force them to cover abortions through MediCaid, the black abortion rate has shot up. Ever since, the black percentage of the population has remained stuck at 13%. Which means that illegal immigration is not the only reason why Hispanics have now surpassed black folk as the nation’s largest minority group, abortion is a major reason. That and the three strikes laws, mandatory minimums, the war on drugs, etc. Can’t make babies if you are in jail! You CAN, however, learn the homosexual/bisexual lifestyle in jail, and homosexuals tend not to make babies either. As for the jail downlow bisexuals, they cut do their part in cutting down on black reproduction by giving AIDS and other such conditions to black women that otherwise would have kids.

    But really, both parties support abortion, homosexuality, the war on drugs, and three strikes laws/mandatory minimums. So what’s it going to be, John K? Stalin or Hitler?

  43. John Kaniecki said


    I guess that’s a serious argument for a third party candidate. If you go in there knowing without a doubt the candidate will loose little harm can be done. You can make a point so to speak. Though I don’t know about this year but I have seen “The Right To Life” group on the ballot. And if I remember correctly I did vote for them this year.

    As far as Stalin and Hitler I’d vote for Stalin. I realize that these two if not the most evilist people on the Earth certainly did their fair share. Makes you shudder thinking about what the beast will be like, doesn’t it. is my alternative email.

    I want to consider my thoughts about the beast. Revelation 13: 3-4 “And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast: and they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast; and they worshipped the beast saying, Who is like unto the beast? Who is able to make war with him?”

    Note that the beast will be extrodinary and set him far above all others.

    My view is the return of the dead of Ronald Wilson Reagan and then the Pope. Only something as dramatic as this would capture the world’s attention. But we shall see.



  44. Charles D. said

    That’s right John, make uo your mind independently, not what you hear and certainly not what you’re told. You will notice that I never seriously try to entice anyone. The running “light moments” between you, IC and I are just that, light moments.

    Frankly, I would not vote for a guy that depended on me to convince anyone else to vote. Fact is, Barack is going to win, that’s a far gone conclusion. My job is going to be counting the people that actually keels over as a result of his victory.

    WARNING: Beware of anyone that whip out one or two hot button issues upon which to base a valid reason as to why or why not to vote for a particular candidate. Always remember God did not establish a point system for sin. By that I mean abortion in Gods’ eye is no more offensive to the law than stealing an apple for the sake of stealing it when one is not hungry. It is man (in his own deceit, for reasons unknown to me, that has assigned a point system, implying that one sin is worse than another sin. The ONLY sin that is different and far apart, is the sin unto death and predition.

    John, you have very good assessment skills, continue to use them and listen to your heart and conscienous.


  45. Charles D. said

    By the way, thanks for the email address, I will send you the materials from the office tomorrow. Having just come from church, I am super glad I made the program. The guest was (3star) LTG Russell Honore. You might remember him from Katrina.


  46. CD,

    Abu Musab al-Zarqawi lived primarily in Jordan before the invasion. Of course he was quite busy causing trouble and killing people before that time. Then, he would have to “lay low” anyplace that he could.

    Iraq was helping him get back into fighting form after he was likely injured in a fire fight near Herat, Afghanistan. He fought our guys in Afghanistan after 9/11 and went to Iraq for care. So Iraq was aiding and harboring a terrorist, who had been fighting our guys on the battlefield.

    Obama acts like illegal immigration is not taking jobs from inner city people, ie BLACK PEOPLE. He is supposed to be President of the whole nation and care about everyone being impacted by illegal immigration, but since he’s Black he gets asked about Blacks losing jobs and he tries to play it off. Well anytime Obama wants to share the truth and stop lying, he can have them read a little something I put together a couple years ago titled The Effect of Illegal Immigration on Employment Opportunities for Blacks. Which proves illegal immigration is having a devastating impact on employment opportunities for Blacks in particular. But hey, Mr. Wanna Be First Black Pres is all about doing little to end illegal immigration and will even give them drivers licenses if he could, so they can get to those jobs they undercut Americans for a bit easier. (Oh but they call me the sellout.)


    As far as Stalin and Hitler I’d vote for Stalin. I realize that these two if not the most evilist people on the Earth certainly did their fair share. Makes you shudder thinking about what the beast will be like, doesn’t it. is my alternative email.

    First you say you’d endorse Stalin, the correct answer was to tell Job to stop trying to corner you, you’d not endorse either and let the Lord’s will be done. Then you show us an e-mail address that features “KKK”. Maybe I’m the only one who noticed, but together with the Stalin vote, you’re one scary dude 🙂 .

  47. Brother Charles, you mentioned:

    Always remember God did not establish a point system for sin. By that I mean abortion in Gods’ eye is no more offensive to the law than stealing an apple for the sake of stealing it when one is not hungry. It is man (in his own deceit, for reasons unknown to me, that has assigned a point system, implying that one sin is worse than another sin. The ONLY sin that is different and far apart, is the sin unto death and predition.

    Actually this is not true. God does view certain sin as worse than others. While NO SIN can stay in His presence, He does stand against some sin far more than others.

    It is important to refute the assertion you made, because it is the same one made by proponents of homosexual behavior. Who claim their sin is no worse than an overweight Christian, given gluttony is also a sin. Me and others have needed to deal with them on numerous occasions regarding this.

    Remember, when God destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah, it was because their sin did register worse than some others in the eyes of God.

    Genesis 18:20-21 (King James Version)

    20 And the LORD said, Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous;

    21 I will go down now, and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it, which is come unto me; and if not, I will know.

    Their sins were “grievous”, not exactly as if God felt sin everywhere was the same.

    In Leviticus 18 we see certain sins are an abomination before God. Recreational petty theft did not make the list of “abominations”. Stealing is a sin, but does not rank to the level of an abomination. I hope nobody reading this is silly enough to think they should go steal and try and game with God.

    Examples are all over the Bible, but here’s just one other example of God showing certain sins really do register worse in His sight.
    Proverbs 6:16-19 (King James Version)

    16 These six things doth the LORD hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him:

    17 A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood,

    18 An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief,

    19 A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren.

    Notice, hands that shed innocent blood is hated by the Lord AND an abomination. It’s like raking up bonus sin points to kill an innocent person instead of stealing an apple you don’t need from the grocery store. Not that you should do either, but lets be honest, if you can find more innocent a blood to shed in our time than that of a baby in the womb via abortion I’d like to hear about it.

    Gluttony is a sin, Proverbs 23:20, but not an abomination.

    Bottom line, only repentance via turning to the Lord Jesus Christ as Lord AND Savior can save anyone. Seeking Him as Savior for salvation and as Lord to be His slave and do as He commands, because those who love him keep His commandments.

  48. Charles D. said

    “Actually this is not true. God does view certain sin as worse than others. While NO SIN can stay in His presence, He does stand against some sin far more than others.”

    Okay, this is one of our healthy disagreements. As to my personal responsibility, I would tell you to re-think that, quickly! Please. I know for a fact that He does not and did not. In the case of Sodom and Gomorrah; it is not the fact that their sins were worse, it is the fact that the men of Sodom and Gomorrah had done it for so long they were depraved and given over to probate minds. The stench of their sins had reach holy heaven. It is a long established fact that one cannot offend the law in small part.

    The Proverbs you make mention of does not change the facts. God hates ALL sin. I use to quote the abomination thesis as an infant Christian, thinking that it made me sound cool. Unfortunately, potential converts or hearers of the word weren’t steep in the Word, to say nothing about their lack of proficiency in the old languages. In a word, their is no point system in sin. To say so, or even think so, is a great mistake.

    We can wrap as many scriptures as we want around it, both, heaven and earth will pass away before His word fail!

    Speaking to “hate” as oppose to “abomination” (and you’re going to hate this), but, is liken unto the argument that Barack and Hilary had about “rejection” thingie. Far be it from me to tell another what is sin to him and whats not, I will simply say: As for me and my household, sin is sin is sin! Period! I don’t even want it on my conscienous, the weight of telling or otherwise trying to convince someone in the area of spiritual persumptuousness, which I know is a sin. It is the total province of the Living God!

    Okay, I am not anxious to end this on a particularly sour note; we are advised to take it to a third party and if there is still no agreement/meeting of the minds, then, take it to the elders.

    Okay, you cannot accuse me of not being fair and open-minded, you’ll vote for Barack and we’ll split the difference!

    Be Cool 🙂


  49. OK Charles, so if God does not see any sin as WORSE than any other, why were some men ordered to be killed for certain violations and not other deeds that were also violations?

    I’m not saying we can get into Heaven in any sin, but God does show he dislikes certain things to a great extent.

  50. Charles D. said

    The same reason that a sexual sinner might die from AIDS and a robber might die from buckshots. That’s an oversimplified way of saying that God knows how we humans who were made in his own image reacts to certain things, for example, adultry where the punishment was stoning to death. God allowed man to come up with that particular punishment because that is what men claimed would satisfy such a “sin.” The same as He allowed kings, because that is what men said they wanted. Kings were not God’s preference for Isreal, however, He allowed it for several reasons, chiefly among those reasons, God knew what the outcome would be. NT example would be Jesus raising Lazrus, not for God’s benefit, but, rather for the benefit of those standing around and to bring God glory.

    Now, the Proverbs that you mentioned earlier, the “hate” and “abomination” are primarily deliniating the habits of and providing instructions, like the wiseman and the fool; prudence as oppose to folly. It is telling the fool how God views the practice of pride, greed, gluttony, but, what it doesn’t do is say that those seven are worse than other sins. Otherwise, to follow that line of reasoning to a logical conclusion, we would have to say which among those seven are worse then the other. Once you designate one, it only stand to reason that one would have to be no. 6,5,4,3 and so on.

    Okay, this is not really getting off subject and it may even seem outlandish to some, but, I am led to say as follows: When man sees a baby die, whether by accident, naturally, or by abuse. The worse possible thoughts over-takes him. He feel that the responsible party should be stripped of his/her skin because the baby was defenseless and needs someone to fight for it’s cause. When you see an airplane crash and a childs’ looses it’s life – our feelings of empathy is no less wrought with emotions. That’s the humaness of humanity.

    What is happening in reality is God’s has recalled that part that is His image – the soul of that child. Whether or how much that soul resembles an adult soul is not part of this premise. What is part of it is: God made us in His image. Yet, we all look different, have different colors of skin, different sizes, different external charactistics. The commonality in us that makes us the image of the living God is our soul. Period. The old house that our souls are housed in all turns to dust; our souls doesn’t. So, whether recalling the soul of a child and recalling the soul of an adult is viewed differently, none of us will know on this side of eternity.

    With sin, it is not that much different. God love all souls, and he hates all sin. Period. Now, before some new visitor to this site points to the falsity that God doesn’t love the souls of those who commit the “unforgivenable” sin; I will be quick to point out that Jesus paid it all; for believers and sinners alike. In fact, thats what make unbelievers sin all the more preditious. But, God allows it to rain on the just the same as the unjust.

    Just how unjust would a man have to be before God would withhold the rain from him? To say that some sin is hated more than others, there would have to be a cutoff somewhere! When God set into motion His Devine Law, His Spiritual Law, His Natural Law into motion; being God He could change things if He so desired, but, He didn’t and He won’t, it is forever fixed that sin is sin and He hates it all without premium, but, with penalty which Christ paid with His own sinless life. Granted that God doesn’t always punish instantly for the sins that we commit, but the wages of sin is death that Christ has already paid. And if a person continues in sin, does he really belong to Christ?

    Be Blessed My Brother


  51. Charles D. said


    I just saw the (I guess) latest posting about Obama on your site. I was convicted on the one hand, and, believe it or not I actually smile a little because I was thinking about something you say sometimes in jist “don’t touch gawds annointed” when sure enough about half way down the screen, what did you have? The annointed speech. So, guess I can’t comment in that vein, however, I will say that I think CNN and MSNBC was WRONG to ask Barack what is he going to do or say about his minister’s glowing comments regarding Louis of the Nation of Islam.

    I think the “God’s annointed” rule applies here. because why should Barack say or do anything about what his minister says? His minister is of age, why don’t they go to the source? That in my opinion was completely out of line and off-limit. The minister is going to have to give an accounting for his flock, including Barack Obama and not the other way around.

    I don’t know why it is, but, the more negative (for the most part lies and innuendos) that I hear about Barack, the more determined I am to support and vote for him.

    I pity the few that try to force-feed abortion, pro-homosexulaity, as if those alone are moral barometers of a man’s worth or leanings. Politicians caals it “cherry picking,” however, I look beyond that and see the shire hypocracy in it, and the words “but do you rob the temple” comes to mind.

    One thing you can believe and thats: there will be closet voters casting the big one for Barack and after he wins, EVERYBODY and their brother is going to claim to have voted for him. The same as they did Martin. you know the story: “I marched with Martin!” My experience has been. if everyone who claimed to have marched with Martin, actually did so, then, he would still be alive and would not have reached Selma as of yet. 🙂


  52. John Kaniecki said

    Inedependet Conservative,

    Hi hope things are well.

    I just recently aquired that email address so that I could post it openly on sites like this and not care if I got tons of spam. I never realized that the three k’s would be interpreted as rascist. In fact I just selected one of the recommended adresses when I put in my name John Kaniecki. I am not a racist and I denounce all forms of discrimination. How you can think someone who likes Obama or wants to give the United States back to the natives is a rascist is beyond me. Sorry if I scared you or offended you. I’m really not frightening at all.

    As regarding Stalin versus Hitler I already mentioned that these were two of the most evil people who walked the face of the Earth. Their atrocities were on a grand scale. There is only one major difference between the two and that is the Communist Manifesto and Mein Kampf. The first much nobler than the second. Not for a second I thought Stalin really believed in the ideals of Marx’s writings.

    Hitler ran on the platform that the Germans were the master race and they should conquer the world. Stalin was associated with the communist revolution which promised “Peace, land and bread.” When Hitler did the evil he did than nobody could complain, he had done what he promised. When Stalin did what he did people could and did object to what he did.

    Do you see the difference?

    A simple analogy would be McCain and Ron Paul.
    If we elected McCain to office and the war went on well that was his promise. If we elected Ron Paul who promised to end the war and he didn’t we could hold his feet to the fire so to speak. It wouldn’t matter if somehow secretly we knew both would continue the war. It is just that a public proclamation would empower the people to get Paul to do as he said.



  53. Charles said

    Okay, you guys know I don’t usually start with a candidate just out of the blue, unless someone says they’re going to vote for this person or that one, or name their candidate and then talk about mine, then, I can go with the best of um!

    I the chance of listening to McCain last night, okay, so nothing else was on except Lou Dobbs who my wife absolutely loath watching, so, to keep the peace, I changed channels. I observe people for a living, well not physically, but anyway, I could affirm that I detected symptoms of physical/memory problems and cognitive dystrophy. It is almost like he has flashbacks to his Vietnam days, then, his assessments and solutions for the war in Iraq is based on the Vietnam era, a war which we did not outright win.

    He is smart enough to know this is happening to him, if true. I honestly and truly have no idea if he messed around with that female lobbyist or not. I believe that he did simply because of all of the changes in his stories that conflict with the sworn deposition that he previously gave. Main thing though, is the affair would not be illogical if he suffer from the ailments mentioned above; e.g. proving one’s manhood when he think the curtains coming down.

    If true, it is doubtful that he will make it through the general election without his ailments becoming fairly obvious to observant eyes. If you have the opportunity to watch a live or fresh clip of him, do it and tell me what you think.


  54. Charles,

    …for example, adultry where the punishment was stoning to death. God allowed man to come up with that particular punishment because that is what men claimed would satisfy such a “sin.”

    Brother, there really is no need for me to continue, because we really are seeing this totally different. But if you want to show me where man rather than God established that punishment and others in the old covenant, I’d appreciate learning about that. Keep in mind, you’d have to explain every old covenant killing that was carried out and attributed in scripture to the Lord declaring it be done because of the particular sin the killed person committed. I always thought things didn’t change till the grace of God came in the form of Jesus Christ in flesh, but if God didn’t really want those people killed and it was simply the will of man, I’d like to learn all about that from you.

    John, lighten up buddy, I was having a little fun with you. Which is why I closed the statements with a smile 😀 🙂 . I was trying to be sarcastic.

    If Spam is your concern, I’ll be sending you an e-mail about another option, because I’ve never been a fan of Yahoo’s spam filtering.

    If you find some nobility in one versus the other regarding Stalin and Hitler’s views. Like I told Charles, no need for me to continue on this topic, because we’re seeing things way different.

    Just an FYI, Job made an interesting post titled Stalin and Hitler: Both Statists (Lessons from the Holocaust).

  55. Charles said

    “Brother, there really is no need for me to continue, because we really are seeing this totally different. But if you want to show me where man rather than God established that punishment and others in the old covenant, I’d appreciate learning about that.”

    Now, reference the above, I suggest Deuteronomy. And while I do not have my Bible at work, as I remember and to be safe, look at 13-15. Better yet, get any KJV with notes/commentary, then, tell me with what part you disagree.

    Okay, tell you what, we can stop on this one because what I said and what you paraphrase above, does not square with the below:

    “I always thought things didn’t change till the grace of God came in the form of Jesus Christ in flesh,”

    Christ was not “grace” Christ was the propitiation for sinful man and the provision upon which eternal salvation is based. God had grace in the OT. Each and every time Isreal rebelled, or turned from God, He showed them grace. Actually, it was by grace that the gentiles were grafted into the chosen family of God. All grace means is unmerited favor; mercy instead of the justice that we deserve.

    “…Where sin abound, grace much more abound” says Paul. Suggesting that grace is the act of forgiving us for our sins. “..then, should we sin much more so much more grace will abound?” Paul asks,rhetorically, then answers, “God forbid” (Romans 5:20)


  56. Now, reference the above, I suggest Deuteronomy. And while I do not have my Bible at work, as I remember and to be safe, look at 13-15. Better yet, get any KJV with notes/commentary, then, tell me with what part you disagree.

    Deuteronomy 13-15

    I’m going to need you to cite for me where it was man and NOT GOD who did things like declare death to apostates. I disagree with you totally and need you to show me exactly where you see that this was the doings of man and not God. Are you claiming the Mosaic law and related penalties had no godly foundation? When you mentioned Deuteronomy, I know parts of that book (later parts) where they declare God said things He did not, they served themselves and God punished them later for it, but I don’t see that in the law, which is what you are citing. You’re going to have to prove your case with the Word of God, the commentaries are someone else’s opinion.

    Christ was not “grace” Christ was the propitiation for sinful man and the provision upon which eternal salvation is based.

    Sir, I think the following verse best sums up our disagreement and supports my position.

    John 1:17 (King James Version)

    17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

    I’m not saying Jesus was not the many other wonderful things, but GOD gave Moses the law to give to man and that included the varied penalties for violations. GOD sent His Son who brought grace.

    Now if sin has no measure of great or small, Moses was full of it when he looked at Aaron and said the following words:
    Exodus 32:21 (King James Version)

    21 And Moses said unto Aaron, What did this people unto thee, that thou hast brought so great a sin upon them?

    Sin has a measure although God will have none of it. Isaiah 59 shows that the shedding of innocent blood LIKE WITH ABORTION is a most devastating of sin. And of course it shows the way out of all sin.

  57. Charles D. said

    Your earlier is where I made my exit, that these are just points that we totally disagree on.

    What I do know is that Jesus brought grace not that He was grace as indicated by your earlier comment: “I always thought things didn’t change till the grace of God came in the form of Jesus Christ in flesh..”

    Furthermore, as for: “Sin has a measure although God will have none of it. Isaiah 59 shows that the shedding of innocent blood LIKE WITH ABORTION is a most devastating of sin. And of course it shows the way out of all sin.”

    All sins are devastating, not just abortion. I won’t presume to state what God’s thinks, I just believe Him when He said “My ways are not like your ways and my thoughts are not like your thoughts” Not only do I not presume to know His thoughts, I have extreme difficulty believing anyone that proclaims to know His thoughts and ways, except to the extent that the Holy Spirit prompts and guides us. And right now, that guidance is that sin is sin to God and there is NO points system AT ALL!

    Very obviously, we each believe as we will, however, I will be guided only by the teachings I have acquired and that WILL NOT change, irrespective of what I might see, hear, or read. I think our time will be better spent pursuing other areas where there may be some agreement, however, on this instant matter, I remain firm.


  58. papp531 said

    Charles Da Clown: Please do remain firm it goes to prove my point you are a space cadet! Please give us some more words from the wise,and the Bible of Charles Da Clown!

  59. Charles

    What I do know is that Jesus brought grace not that He was grace as indicated by your earlier comment: “I always thought things didn’t change till the grace of God came in the form of Jesus Christ in flesh..”

    I give you that point. I should have said he brought rather than is grace.

    However, you’re still not showing how man established that worshiping a golden calf was a greater sin than stealing an apple you don’t need. Clearly God established one act was punishable by immediate death and not the other, although both are sin and you can’t get into Heaven with either. There is a certain measure that can’t be denied and you’ve failed to disprove. The problem for man is that the measure God requires is perfection and no man can reach that measure on his own no matter how good a person he is himself.

    I don’t base my view off personal opinion, I base it off the words of Christ Himself.

    Luke 10:10-12 (King James Version)

    10 But into whatsoever city ye enter, and they receive you not, go your ways out into the streets of the same, and say,

    11 Even the very dust of your city, which cleaveth on us, we do wipe off against you: notwithstanding be ye sure of this, that the kingdom of God is come nigh unto you.

    12 But I say unto you, that it shall be more tolerable in that day for Sodom, than for that city.

    Now Charles, did those who turned away the disciples of Jesus commit a greater sin than those in the city of Sodom?

  60. Charles D. said

    papp531 Says: First of all, if you think by adding numbers to your handle that it is going to change the fact that you are and forever will be just simple PappSmear!

    Second, if I had to depend on someone else to set my premis, aka “sloppy seconds,” then I would remain silent, mind my own business, and stop “Ralph Buncheing” other people conversation. Aside from your obvious short-comings, in terms of forming a complete cohert thought; syntax, mechanics, grammar, and very probably bad breath, I will get to you when I have time and a need to converse with the site/village idiot! That would be you.

    You are so inadequate its laughable. 🙂 🙂 🙂

    BTW: Don’t forget to attend somebody’s church over this weekend.


  61. Charles D. said


    Okay, PappSmear has beat you to the punch.

    Okay, first you are going to have to tell me about WHICH group are you referring to that turned away the disciples of Christ; since there were so many.

    If you are speaking about the the towns in which Christ instructed His diciples to shake the very dust from their sandles, No one, including you, can demonstrate that the latter group committed any sin at all. What they did, so missed their blessing(s) by disregarding a rule that was and is very important in the area, and that is hospitality, which means much more there than it does here today. I might expound and go as far as saying the tenets of hospitality, in part, is the reason no one has dropped a dime on Bin Laden.

    Now, you will excuse me if I do not comment further on this topic. I (as well as you), have stated with clarity that this is one we will disagree on, as far as I’m concerned this issue has died.

    Have a blessed Saturday.


  62. believertiltheend said

    If a non-believer visited this site and read some of the comments that have been posted by people who claim to be Christians, what would their perceptions of Christians be? If our comments do nothing to bring praise, honor and glory to the name of our Heavenly Father and our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ, they should not posted. Name calling and hateful comments do not show the love that should abound in our hearts for each other, especially for those who are believers in our Lord Jesus. Love thy enemy, pray for those cause you harm. The point is: even non-believers do good for those whom they love. The proof of Christ living within you is doing good to those who spitefully entreat you. Those who truly know Christ as their Savior will be known by the fruits of their faith.

  63. Olga said

    Those in the “religious left” take anti-Bliblical positions?????

    This is SLANDER, thus offensive to God. I am a socialist person but am also pro-life and conservative.

    And I believe that Capitalism is the one with satanic influences, because no one who actually loves Christ would believe in a brutal, dog-eat-dog system (e.g. tax breaks for the rich).

    CAPITALISM as a savage and brutal, dog-eat-dog, godless, satanic economic system!!

    And I am NOT LIBERAL I am pro life, as I already pointed!

    Repent, because as Jesus said, it will be hard for the rich (or right-wing) to enter heaven!

    You will have to live for the “little ones” !

  64. John Kaniecki said


    Right on sister!

    How far do you carry your sense of justice though. The Bible teaches us not to steal. These United States were stolen from the natives.That is an undisputed fact. Righteousness demands we return them.



  65. Charles D. said

    John my brother,

    You’ve never answered a question I asked you a while back:

    What would you do if some natives showed up at your door and ask you to leave the premises because your home rightfully belong to them and their people?

    In love,


  66. Charles, they talk the talk, but they don’t REALLY walk it. They are not giving up JACK STAMP. They just feel good in themselves talking about it.

    Olga, you describe yourself as:

    I am a socialist person but am also pro-life and conservative.

    OK, so I guess you won’t be voting, because not a single candidate out there is both.

    You claim it is:

    SLANDER, thus offensive to God

    To claim that religious-left motives are anti-Biblical. But then you rambled on about how you feel right winged positions (which include capitalism) are anti-Biblical.

    Are you not feeling like a hypocrite? Or do you feel the religious left has the lock on godliness? You are against someone claiming the religious-left is evil, but you’ve said of the religious-right:

    Repent, because as Jesus said, it will be hard for the rich (or right-wing) to enter heaven!

    If you feel neither is fully on point, you can’t claim either will have an easy time getting into Heaven and you can’t speak against anyone that speaks against either side.

    If covetousness can block the way to Heaven, do you feel a wall of dead babies can give someone easier access?

    The admonishment to care for the poor is to the church, to primarily care for poor saints. When did the saints in scripture attempt to press a commune on Caesar? They kept their own private communes in some cases where there was need, but they did not go around pressing the ideal of socialism, they went around spreading the message of Christ and Him crucified. Any concept of a commune was only presented to those who already accepted Christ, in areas where that was needed to help POOR SAINTS. I don’t see record of communes among many of the saints in Rome, although they were used more heavily in other areas. (If I’m wrong, someone please offer details showing saints in Rome did more than commune on Sundays when they met for worship. That’s all I’ve seen of them communing in church history and have not seen record of saints in Rome communing in scripture as a regular socialist styled commune of believers.)

    You’ve seen socialism fail repeatedly when used by secular governments, but it worked for a group of saints in scripture because of the following:
    Acts 2:44 (King James Version)

    44 And all that believed were together, and had all things common;

    It was a small group AND they were ALL BELIEVERS. Did God tell Caesar to help poor saints OR YOU? Scripture to support your position would be good. When there was famine in Jerusalem, did the Apostles seek bread from the Pharisees and government officials for believers, or from saints?

    I’m not seeing where saints pressed secular government for a full socialist society and seeing how the model fails in large scale application, no wonder.

    I mean if you feel taking money from heathen’s to claim you’re doing God’s work is a good thing, you keep trying to take that heathen’s money.

  67. John Kaniecki said


    May the good Lord bless you and keep you.

    It’s not going to go down that way, where Natives will walk up to your door and ask you for yoour house. In my vision the transfer of land will come after Armagedon which I estimate about four billion killed.

    Let’s be practical. I don’t own a house for one thing. If these Natives knocked on my door I would befriend them and try to talk to them about Jesus. Perhaps almost as important I would listen to their story!

    I can expound on my visions but most people dismiss it as madness so I really don’t get into it.

    I see your having a big whop dee doo with Marriane over Obama. How one can be against abortion and be for war if far beyond me.

    I would like this question answered.

    “In the six years the Republicans controlled the Presidency, the House and the Senate, why didn’t they do anything about abortion?”



  68. John,

    You don’t own property and are claiming American Indians (I’m a native buddy, I was born here too and so was my daddy, his daddy and so on…) should be given land back. Well then are you renting property? If so, you enable someone who keeps the land you feel is stolen and corrupted. You facilitate and embolden what you claim to be dirty land. To be true to your word, you would have to be living on land rented to you by American Indians. Are you doing that?

    How can a Christian ever be against abortion, but ever be for any war? I think we agree on abortion, so I’ll speak about war.

    Romans 13:3-4 (King James Version)

    3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:

    4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.

    Just perhaps in some cases that can be a valid reason.

    When Hitler was attacked in war, seeing it in hindsight, are you opposed to that war? I know you’re not. So you’re not anit-war either buddy 😆 .

    I’m not a Republican, but I’ll say the Republicans could have done more about abortion. They did a little like with the partial birth ban and such. They were trying to work it via the judicial angle, so they would not have to take the heat for doing more themselves in the legislative and executive branches of government. Any President via executive order could probably call for a momentary halt on abortions for a short period, they could legally get away with that I think. They were working the legal end and knew Democratic opposition would hold things up, so they can claim none of the deaths are their fault. Also JOHN MCLAME with GANG OF 14 STUNT really killed things. And now he’s the Republican nominee for President 🙄 . I could bang on Obama, McLame and Hillary all day!

    Mississippi has done a great job at reducing abortions in their state. A shame more states won’t take some more of the measures they took to run some of the baby killers away!

  69. Devon said

    No Charles, I am not aware of Diversifeid Transportation or what the Acronym PWT refers too?

    Why should i be?

  70. John Kaniecki said


    My reply must be brief for I am about to leave for my war protest.

    When you throw Romans 13 in my face it is like when the other people throw “Touch not my annointed” into our faces.

    I recognize the governemnt and follow all of its laws. I know that Christ’s kingdom is a spiritual one.

    Yet in the hierarchy of commands, “Love thy neigbour” out ranks Romans 13 as it is the second greatest command. (You can’t really argue with Jesus.)

    I’ll go out on a limb and say the Mathew 5:44 “Love your enemies”, is higher up on the importance of commands. If you don’t think so contemplate heavily on the parable of the Good Samaritan.

    Back to Romans,according to history Paul was executed later by the same government. We know for certain he was imprisoned.

    I know all these lands are stolen. It don’t matter how much time has passed. I live with the reality that today the Federal Government is the law of the land. I advocate through legal, peaceful and non violent tactics to have that changed.



    PS I always wanted to go to Alaska.

  71. John,

    When you throw Romans 13 in my face it is like when the other people throw “Touch not my annointed” into our faces.

    Charles didn’t throw it, I did and it’s NOT at all like trying to mishandle an old covenant verse about kings and prophets. It is what it is and the words are easy to understand. You asked brother and simply don’t like the answer because of your personal bias, but the foundation and scripture are firm. Now you no longer need to ask why some Christians ever are OK with a war. You are A-OK with the war that took down Hitler. You’ve even said you’re OK with teaming with Stalin if you felt a need, which is a line even I won’t cross!

    Yet in the hierarchy of commands, “Love thy neigbour” out ranks Romans 13 as it is the second greatest command. (You can’t really argue with Jesus.)

    Now you’re sounding as bad as Obama. Trying to claim love can’t involve defense. You’re trying to act as if God’s avenger is not what God’s Word says he is. Which was written at a time Romans were not very fond of Christians, as you noted. God’s Word is True! This is not an argument with Jesus, because THE WORD OF GOD IS IN AGREEMENT! You don’t pull that “love thy neighbor” line regarding war against Hitler. John, you’re falling all over yourself here. You should have waited till after the protest to think out a clear response.

    I’ll go out on a limb and say the Mathew 5:44 “Love your enemies”, is higher up on the importance of commands. If you don’t think so contemplate heavily on the parable of the Good Samaritan.

    Do you prepare for those anti-war protests by twisting up scriptures? You don’t say this about Hitler and efforts to remove him from power. Are you against there having been a US Civil War that resulted in an end to American slavery? STOP BEING SELECTIVE WHILE TRYING TO APPLY A BLANKET ANTI-WAR RULE TO EVERYONE ELSE! Loving your enemy does not include allowing your enemy to rape your wife and slaughter your children. Just as saints defended Paul in Corinth, Acts 18. THE LORD TOLD PAUL HIS PEOPLE WOULD BE THERE FOR HIM!!! And they used VIOLENT FORCE!

    I laid off your earlier debate with Charles about force, but if you want to keep going, I’ll be more than happy to FLUSH IT!

    God declared government DOES at times do GOOD in KILLING and GOD’S WORD IS TRUE. Stop trying to hop over Romans 13! You’re A-OK when the war is for something you agree with, but ask why some Christians can be OK with a war and then gripe about the response given with a fully scriptural foundation.

    You could easily find an American Indian renting out a spot and live there to clear your conscious, rather than enable what you see as long standing theft of land. You want land given back, while you continue to enjoy living on a piece of it via rent payments yourself. I don’t find your conviction on the matter to be very strong, but simply some good lip service. Be the example John.

  72. Charles said

    IC and John, thanks a bunch! I know you each to be staunch believers and Christians. I admire the way we can relate to each other. Each knowing that we wish only the spiritual best for the other.

    Still at work so I have to be brief:

    John you cannot say “it’s not going to go down like that” and whether you are renting or own the property makes no difference. Even natives shows up at your door and say “okay, you’re renting, but it is still our lands so you should vacate; we’ll take over the rent.” My question to you is whether you would vacate the property?

    Okay, you said: “I recognize the governemnt and follow all of its laws” I do also, however, if you know something is wrong, does it make it right because the government says it is? I think not because as Christians – that’s the ONLY time we are to be disobient is when man laws conflicts with God laws. Furthermore, if something seems/feel wrong or sinful to us believers, it is sin. Even if it is not sin to some others, it is sin to us. Remember that’s what Paul taught regarding whether some should eat certain foods.

    If your stand is for the “stolen lands” doctrine and you feel that the lands should be returned to the natives, then, what is your obligation in facilitating the return of the lands? Who knows, you might start a movement, heck, IC and I might give back a little while following your example. Okay, I said that in jist. Isn’t there a Christian hymn that says something to the effect: “And let it began with me”…

    Hey! Our whole dialogue here today is a good one. I intend to print it and read it again tonight. Thanks my friends.


  73. Charles said

    Diversified is a subsidiary of PWT Pacific Westrn Transport. You said (I think) that you were from Alberta. My partners are the cat’s MEOW in bus transportation in Calagry and beyond. Thats all.

  74. John Kaniecki said


    First of all as I mentioned I was pressed for time. Now I have more time. I addressed the letter to Charles but it was the IC who addressed me. So sorry for the confusion.

    No I would never fight in a war of man. What has occurred in my life has made the individual that I am. God is guiding me through it and I am his handiwork. I am the piece of clay that the potter is molding in his hands.

    Let me make two hypothetical connections. If I was the same teenager at 18 or 19 not only would I have signed up for this war with Iraq but I would have most likely volunteered for the Vietnam war! But that wasn’t my circumstance.

    Now let me say this. If I was how I am now and World War II broke out, I would still hold to my beliefs of pacifism. So which way do you want it.

    World War II was a much nobler war if you will. The very survival and the fate of the whole world was in question. I am glad of the outcome but still I would not have served, just like some others didn’t. I think a great way for a Christian to serve in a war would to be a medic. By the way I’ve looked twice through the comments on this thread and I do not see any endorsement of any war. Hitler isn’t even mentioned in that statement you are claiming my thought is in.

    Now let me clarify what I mentioned about Stalin. Job presented the choice between Hitler and Stalin running in an election. He then proposed the hypothetical question over which one I would vote for.

    Hitler wrote his book Mein Kampf detailing his plans for the master race. I’ve never read the book only quoted excerpts. But it details how Hitler wanted some races exterminated and some enslaved. Lenin, Stalin’s predecessor ran on the platform of “Peace, Land and Bread.” Now with those two candidates and those two platforms who would you cast your vote for.

    Politics is a tricky thing. I believe Job voted for Bush twice and regrets it. The whole hypothetical question really isn’t a fair guage of things because we have the advantage of hindsight. Let me state clearly that I would never vote for Stalin if I knew his true agenda or true intentions. But in Job’s proposed scenario did I know those details. And to be fair to me I did state before that they were probably two of the most evil people who ever existed.

    And as far as the civil war freeing slaves there were people who made other efforts long before that war. People who helped the slaves escape or created safe houses.

    And please explain acts 18, I only see the government protecting Paul.


    What makes the education of the European world that has for a long time dominated this world. We need new perspectives. What we are doing is not working. People have been so influenced by this Western thinking that they don’t even know it.



  75. John Kaniecki said


    My apologies in my haste I thought Charles addressed me not the IC.

    Firstly let me say this. I am a creation in God’s hand. He is the Potter and I am the clay. If I was eighteen or nineteen during the time of the Vietnam War of nine eleven I would probably have volunteered to fight.

    Today if I was the same as I am now and viewing World War II I would be a refuse to serve. I would advocate that a Christian working as a medic would be a God glorifying way to serve.

    I have read my comments on this thread twice and never supported war. I feel a war like World War II was a nobler war and that the threat of the Axis powers put us in greater peril. But God’s kingdom is not of this world and I choose to fight his foes not fleshly ones.

    Let me clear up what I have said about Stalin. First of all Job proposed the hypothetical question of who I would vote for Stalin or Hitler.

    Hitler wrote out his master plan in Mein Kampf. I have only read quoatations from that work. In it he describes how he plans to kill entire races and enslave others. Stalin however was part of Lenin’s party which promised “Peace, Bread and Land.” I see a great difference in the two candidates right there. It depends in our hypothisis how much we know. We can be perfect always in hindsight. For example I believe that Job has regretted for voting for Bush.

    I stated that these two people were some of the evilest that ever lived.

    I will still stand by Mathew Five which is Jesus’ words as stronger than Romans 13.
    “Do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you and persecute you.” verse 5:44

    Look at Romans 13:Though shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. Love worketh no ill towards his neighbour: therefore love is the fufilling of the law.”

    When a soldier engages in war does he work ill towards a neighbour. During ‘Shock and Awe’ when the Iraqi citizens were slaughterd I would definitely consider that ill.

    Let me say this that there is a time and a season for everything. We all have faults and we all sin and there is room for improvement in all. We strive to be Christ like because we have seen something in Jesus that is special and more wonderful than anything else. Consider how Paul rebuked Peter. Imagine this Paul a persecutor correcting one who walked with the Master!

    I can’t fix the world in one day. It wasn’t designed that way. Life is a long struggle. I have many goals and wishes and I plan to give it my best shot. I recognize we may disagree but let us all come to the conclusion that Jesus is Lord!



  76. Devon said

    Uhmmm…..when you say Bus transportation are you referring to School Busing or otherwise because I have not heard of PWT….granted this really isn’t my field and Calgary and Alberta are awash with great wealth and businesses so obviously I am not aware of everything that is going on here….

    When I think of School name stands out here and it is Southland …….as for Busing lines outside of Calgary…really…Greyhound…and a myriad of smaller companies

    Yes born and raised in Calgary and still live in Southern Alberta…

    Alberta is the last sane spot in a dangerously socialistic country that Canada has become….also some pockets of Sanity in B.C. and Sask….

  77. Charles D. said

    PWT is/was involved in school busing also, but, they were really huge. In fact, in other provinces they were THE company, been around forever, in fact they were chosen for transport when Regan lived and the Pope visited Alaska. Very politically connected and we had a joint venture in Alaska.

    I’m surprised you hadn’t heard of Bob Colbert and PWT. No biggie though.

  78. Devon said

    Bob Colbert? No..I have never heard of him but Calgary is a large city well over a million plus now….

    My background and post secondary education is in Accounting/Business and to a large extent ancient roman and greek studies….so I really do not have a lot of knowledge about the transportation industry though I do have my class 1.

  79. Charles D. said

    Thanks Devon.

    Bet your ancient roman and greek studies…comes in handy with your Bible study and interpeting scripture. Is there a particular denomination with which you affiliate?


  80. Dear John,

    No I would never fight in a war of man.

    You’re just happy Hitler was removed via war (you know you are) and will call police to your house to remove an intruder WITH THEIR GUNS, but you feel this allowing others to fight and use guns by proxy. LIKE POLICE YOU WOULD CALL TO YOUR HOUSE WITH THEIR GUNS, will not somehow make you an endorser of violence in some cases.

    If I was how I am now and World War II broke out, I would still hold to my beliefs of pacifism. So which way do you want it.

    While you’d still call police to your place if someone broke into tonight. While you know the police may use force. You’d shed your FALSE claims of pacifism in a heartbeat when it gets real for your own hide, featuring a man in a ski mask entering a window of your home. You’d probably club him with a bat before the cops arrive 😆 ! If Christians could make wagers, I’d put money on the cops getting there to find a man in a ski mask beaten with a bat or some other object!

    World War II was a much nobler war if you will.

    Again proving you’re not a pacifist, claiming war has nobility.

    The very survival and the fate of the whole world was in question.

    Never mind the whole world, you’d have men with guns at your place for a single intruder into your place when only your personal fate is in question. Well your fate would not REALLY be in question (I know you’re redeemed and your fate is secure with the Lord), but the longevity of your human body might be in question.

    By the way I’ve looked twice through the comments on this thread and I do not see any endorsement of any war.

    You’d endorse a war in your own home featuring cops and an intruder. Because YOU would be the one who called the cops in. While you claim you’d never pick up a gun yourself for war. You trying to hide behind the guns of others while claiming yourself to be peaceful is just bogus, totally BOGUS. It’s a twisted logic that makes you feel good about yourself, but it’s really BOGUS.

    Now let me clarify what I mentioned about Stalin.

    You locked up with Stalin when presented the question, that’s the bottom line.

    Now with those two candidates and those two platforms who would you cast your vote for.

    Neither. You were presented the question, voted Stalin and now hope to dupe me into voting with you by playing off the communism of ENEMY OF THE CHURCH LENIN. Not going to work. You can share the blood with Stalin and the evil of Lenin with somebody else, but I won’t bite.

    …because we have the advantage of hindsight.

    And with that advantage, you still picked evil.

    James 4:17, if a saint is aware of the right thing to do and does not do it, it is sin. It is not right to endorse evil when you know better. Nobody who voted for Bush was voting in 2008 for who would be President in 2000 or 2004. But in 2008, you voted Stalin! Do you not regret that?

    Let me state clearly that I would never vote for Stalin if I knew his true agenda or true intentions. But in Job’s proposed scenario did I know those details. And to be fair to me I did state before that they were probably two of the most evil people who ever existed.

    You still voted for him, even with all you knew. Rather than refusing, you voted Stalin, knowing what you know. Being FAIR to you is not to let you waddle out on your word. You should tell Job you would not vote for either if that is your position. So would you still vote Stalin in response to Job’s question of whether you’d vote for Hitler or Stalin?

    And as far as the civil war freeing slaves there were people who made other efforts long before that war. People who helped the slaves escape or created safe houses.

    Those efforts did not end it. I say with my stand still firmly on Romans 13:3-4, that God willed for men who were not even all redeemed, to exercise use of the sword and wrath for HIM and do some GOOD KILLING (good because some evil was removed) against some who were evil to slaves HE had called some of to salvation.

    And please explain acts 18, I only see the government protecting Paul.

    Who are the “people” the Lord speaks to Paul of in Acts 18:10? And who does the beating in Acts 18:17? The brethren! Saints. The government was Gallio, who simply watched it all take place. Read that chapter in full brother.

    I will still stand by Mathew Five which is Jesus’ words as stronger than Romans 13.

    Here you are again acting like God’s Word is out of agreement. It is because of your MISGUIDED BIAS that Christians can’t ever act in defense and you act as if God can’t promote war. So you must cut Romans 13 out of your Biblical view, which makes your view by definition something less than the fullness of scripture. If you love your brother as well as your enemies, you would not sit idle while an enemy kills your brother. You would defend your brother. This is why those acting in Paul’s defense in Acts 18 are on firm footing and why we can look at some wars and realize God was removing an evil.

    And you’d still call the cops if someone entered your home. You would “bless” the intruder with cops brandishing their weapons!

    If someone enters my place tonight and I shoot them dead, it does not mean I failed to love them. I simply did not suffer a fool to devour my house. No more than you calling the cops to play the role of gunman on your behalf, instead of you pulling the weapon yourself. And yes the Apostles had some sharp ones in their own possession, Luke 22:38. If I’m out telling someone about Jesus and the spit on me and punch me, I’ll let that go, but them coming into my place tonight with evil intentions is another story all together.

    Read 2 Corinthians 11 and see the sarcastic rebuke the apostle Paul gives to those who allow false teachers to among other things, devour and beat them. You’re hinging on one verse and ignoring the fullness of scripture. But you seem to come to your senses when answering what you’d do if someone might intrude into your residence.

    I love you brother, but I won’t let you mangle the Word of God.

  81. Devon said

    Well Charles, I wasn’t a Christian when studying this material but their is certainly much stuff in Ancient Rome that testifies to the truth of Christ….

    My denomination is Holiness…or was until we moved out of Calgary…now we go to a independant charismatic…..but my heart is with the Holiness…

  82. John Kaniecki said


    Hello hope you are well.

    Some people have no knowledge of scripture. How people can not be curious enough about Jesus to at least read the Bible once is beyond me, especially in the United States.

    I have more compassion for those who have read the Bible and do not understand it. This happens to us all, especially when we begin.

    I know in my own life the Lord has kept me humbler by teaching me through those who really don’t grasp what scripture is saying. I think now of one individual who believes in the “Health and Wealth” gospel. This same individual taught me that we don’t have to suffer in this world because of what Jesus did. Yet despite these two outrageous comments I have learned things from this individual. Not much but I cherish every little thing.

    Humility is something that we all need. We should all realize that we haven’t got the Bible one hundred percent figured out. There are mysteries and wonders that are complicated. I usually let things lie if another has scripture to back them up. For example the longest thread on this blog dealt with Holiness or whether there was a trinity or not. It digressed into both sides quoting multitudes of scripture to one another and not much being accomplished, at least in my opinion.

    In this blog and others the question has been brought up on two related subjects. These are whether it is proper to kill in self defense and the second whether it is proper for a Christian to go to war. I answer no to both questions based on my understanding of God’s Word.

    In all honesty I feel less secure about my stance of the first one. If tonight somebody crawled through my window I would be surely tempted to protect my wife and myself. I would certainly have no problem calling the police to handle the matter. That is their role after all. I feel Romans 13 makes that clear.

    However on the second matter of a Christian going to war I cannot find myself more adamant against it.

    Some have quoted Romans 13 and have said the government has the authority to go to war. This I do not even dispute though I consider war the Earth’s greatest tragedy. The question is the Christians role in the process. I would now like us to turn to the end of Romans 12. I will quote verse 17 to conclusion.

    “Recompense to no man evil for evil. Provide things honest in the sight of all men. If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men. Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath; for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord. Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst give him drink; for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head. Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.”

    A Christian’s call is to do good to all. If somebody does us evil we are to “turn the other cheek.” If we are to suffer for the cause of Christ “we must carry our cross”. If payback is due “I will repay sayeth the Lord.” We should overcome “evil with good.”

    I heard estimates that in the Vietnam War 70% of the casulaties were civilians. I heard in the Iraq was the number is 90%. Is that something a Christian should be involved in?

    I don’t know why this topic is so hard for some to grasp. I see good decent Christians thinking that somehow ‘oranized violence’ is going to bring peace. “You shall reap what you sow.”

    As regard to Acts 18:9-11 I always understood that statement I always understood God telling Paul to speak was that He had many elect in the city,that is why in 11 it mentions a long length of stay of three and a half years.

    In Acts 18:17 the Greeks do the beating not the brethren.



  83. Devon said

    Well John… the civilian numbers were far worse in WW 2…… they are high in all wars….so do we quit fighting just wars which ww 2 was because accidents happen?

    I don’t think so…..I am pretty sure the Lord is all for us fighting in certain wars and causes…ie 30 years war, WW 2, Fighting Islamic terrorists, Fighting to overthrow slavery…..etc etc…

    In the perfect world to come….their will be no more need of such implements….in this sad depraved world, we need at times to fight…

    It is that simple….if your christian conscience will not allow you to fight…then so be it…for other Christians, the choice is the opposite…

    I suppose when each of us come to that crossroads in life, then we will have to make that decision….to either go into chains and slavery or death ……… or fight……I rather doubt either is wrong…..

  84. John,

    These are whether it is proper to kill in self defense and the second whether it is proper for a Christian to go to war. I answer no to both questions based on my understanding of God’s Word.

    Can you please explain why you even see them as 2 separate matters? How is defending ones self in your home via deadly force different from defending yourself from an invading force on a national scale?

    You’re willingness to call cops while refraining from violence yourself is duplicitous. How when David had a man killed by proxy and David was held accountable for murder, is it different when someone calls the police to do potentially deadly self defense on their behalf? I’m not saying calling the cops is equal to David having a man killed in battle and I don’t see the former as sin, but God sees the act of who called for action rather clearly. So your call to the cops means anything done by them was carried out by your authorization to defer to their discretion in your defense. It falls on your head. Better to defend yourself as you feel the Lord leads, rather than bringing others in. You’re a Christian, the cop you call may be a heathen.

    You quote Romans 12:17-21 and you use a logic that ASSUMES that self defense is EVIL. This is a most faulty assumption. Pay back, revenge, recompense or vengeance – is to be done wrong and then go try and settle the score yourself. This is not on par with protecting your household from an intruder who is in the middle of a process of destroying your household to the point of murder. You’re taking verses about premeditated vengeance and attempting to apply them to a real time act of defense. A slap on the cheek for ministering the gospel or even a slap on the cheek for no reason is one thing, we have no debate there. But a man seeking to kill you for something OTHER THAN THE GOSPEL when you can prevent your own murder and you refuse to prevent the act of evil and allow yourself or a loved one to be murdered, that has no foundation in scripture or even simple logic. If a force is invading your nation or your home, you can defend yourself respectively in war or personal self defense.

    But you’re OK with letting the cops handle it and you fail to recognize how a military plays a similar role at times.

    Suffering for the cause of Christ is not allowing someone to rape and kill a loved one while the thugs have you watch. I give you Acts 18 (we’ll handle how you’ve erred with it later in this comment) to show you that in displaying love, your acts of good SHOULD BE TO THE SAINTS FIRST AND FOREMOST, but let me make it clearer:

    Galatians 6:10 (King James Version)

    10 As we have therefore opportunity, let us do good unto all men, especially unto them who are of the household of faith.

    John, your priority is the welfare of saints above the welfare of others, BEFORE THE WELFARE OF UNBELIEVERS AND EVIL PEOPLE. So if a thug is trying to kill your brother, you’re supposed to defend your brother and not fret if you must kill the thug to save your brother.

    I heard estimates that in the Vietnam War 70% of the casulaties were civilians. I heard in the Iraq was the number is 90%. Is that something a Christian should be involved in?

    You’ve again picked selectively rather than speaking to the issue as a whole, while you promote a blanket prohibition for Christians. In the war to take down Hitler civilians suffered death too although they were not the true target. When we don’t skip or hop over words in Romans 13 we see God’s avenger does not bear the sword in vain and so there is war that is just in removing evil. Should a Christian be ashamed to remove evil? NO! Should a Christian be upset if they helped take down Hitler? NO!

    So John, are our US soldiers, many of whom request Bibles while on the battle field, are they living in sin in your opinion, since they won’t request to be discharged?

    I don’t know why this topic is so hard for some to grasp. I see good decent Christians thinking that somehow ‘oranized violence’ is going to bring peace. “You shall reap what you sow.”

    You mentally lump all violence in the same basket. It’s like the person who reads Exodus 20:13 in 1611 KJV and assumes the word “kill” equals “murder”, when actually Exodus 20:13 translated for modern English is about murder, not every act of killing. Using the faulty logic of all killing being sin, the children of Israel in all their wars that were commanded by the Lord for them to engage in were acts of evil and make God inconsistent. God does not change. Killing to remove evil was approved by God for the nation of Israel and Romans 13 affirms there are cases today where God allows a government to act in force for good. I’m not trying to promote Replacement theology, but Romans 13 affirms government at times does use THE SWORD for good. I see no reason for a Christian to be against being involved if they feel it is good.

    Calling cops is nothing but a small scale form of calling a military. A military might mistakenly kill an innocent person and a cop might fire and mistakenly kill an innocent person also. They both wear uniforms, carry weapons and are authorized to kill when necessary.

    Using your logic, you must view the Civil War as a great evil because of lives lost, because you can’t grasp the great good that came from it and the evil that was removed, unless you don’t feel freedom for slaves was a good ordained by God.

    If I sow self defense I don’t reap aggression upon myself, because self defense is not aggression. If I go attacking my neighbor than yes I by scripture reap an attack in return. However, if my neighbor enters my home to destroy it and I defend myself, what I do reap? Neighbors who defend their homes if someone enters theirs. It’s called a society with a low crime rate John. As Kennesaw, GA proved in action when they had everyone in that town buy a gun. And they didn’t have to go around shooting a bunch of people to prove the point. The fact it was known gun ownership was high and people would engage in good self defense if needed, resulted in an evil of crime going to near zero. Most evil intruders are handled by homeowners with guns, not cops. Good homeowners who do a good thing in defending from evil, rather than watching a thug rape their children. I see Bible verses speaking of someone having your coat, but not your wife and children.

    You’re doing a poor exegesis on Acts 18:17. The event took place in Achaia, which is in southern Greece. All the Greeks were involved in the act of violence in defense of Paul. ALL THE GREEKS. The brethren were Greeks, it was Greece. Using your logic John, what were the brethren? Hebrews? They all would have had to have been Hebrew converts like Paul for your exegesis to work.

  85. I have a comment coming ahead of this one once it’s approved. It is my detailed response to John, because he’s got some things a bit off in his read of scripture.

    Devon, you have to understand something, you said:

    It is that simple….if your christian conscience will not allow you to fight…then so be it…for other Christians, the choice is the opposite…

    That is NOT John, when we take an honest look at his position. He’s OK with calling cops to fight for him. He’s fine with calling strong arms by proxy and he would like you to feel this is not equal with him doing the deed himself. It is just like him doing the deed himself, even if the cop kills someone and I explain it in the coming comment. Just as a President who calls the military to defend a nation on their watch.

    But if a Christian can’t engage in war, a Christian by John’s logic should not authorize war, which would mean a Christian should never be President. So if that’s the case, Christians should not vote, given every President has authority to engage in war, our last 3 have done so repeatedly and the next President will too. All remaining candidates of the 2 major parties have said they would leave “all options on the table” regarding Iran. Now that would leave John with having to vote for a pure pacifist candidate and that would mean the candidate once entering office would fail to fulfill using the sword for good as noted in Romans 13. It would be like John not being willing to call the cops as his home is being invaded.

    You see, with John’s logic you can’t come to an honest scripture based proof when it’s applied fully.

  86. Devon said

    Those are some good solid points IC…and also wasn’t on of the titles of the Lord God All Mighty a “Men of War”? I think in the Hebrew Bible the lord is referred to that….

    I do wonder if John is a Mennonite…that might explain his thinking on these issues…

  87. John Kaniecki said


    Hello hope you are well.

    I feel compelled one more time to talk about this issue as it is a vitally important one.

    We must “walk by faith not by sight.”
    Christ’s kingdom “is not of this world.”

    Perhaps this might be a fruitful avenue to pursue.

    What are Christians in Iran supposed to do if war breaks out?

    What is the difference between an airplane smashing into a building and killing civilians or a bomb dropped from a plane kiling civilians?

    Furthermore it was God who set the slaves free. From what I understand about Lincoln his priority was to save the union. He would have kept slavery if it fowarded this end. (This over simplifies history I know because Lincoln drew closer to God while the war continued.)

    No I am not a Mennonite though I have a lot in common with them. I am actually a member of the Church of Christ though most of them don’t support pacifism. I believe in actions like “turning the other cheek” because of my faith in Jesus.

    What I understand Romans 13 is giving governments respect not a license to get Christians to do whatever the government wants. We must render unto Ceasers what is Ceaser’s and unto God what is God’s. As James Taylor put it “there’s a well on the hill you don’t kill for Jesus.”



  88. Hi John, all is well here, hope things are well with you also.

    What are Christians in Iran supposed to do if war breaks out?

    I don’t know other than pray, but personally I’m not certain if war in Iran will have the desired outcome and I’ve made that known in another comment on this blog, but that does not dismiss the validity of prior discussion on the topic in general.

    Conversely someone could ask what are Christians in America supposed to do if a nuclear device goes off near their home? I’m not trying to round-robin on that. There is a general understanding that is the core issue here. Is it sinful for a Christian to engage in self defense, be it on a personal or national scale? I say no and have given my reasons.

    What is the difference between an airplane smashing into a building and killing civilians or a bomb dropped from a plane kiling civilians?

    What is the difference between you calling the cops to your house, them shooting and missing the thug, but hitting an innocent child? The difference is TERRORISTS INTENTIONALLY ARE ENGAGING IN A FORM OF VENGEANCE WHICH WE AGREE IS SINFUL. The cop is not being vengeful and if a government drops a bomb in an act of defense having exhausted other options and otherwise facing death of its own citizens, it’s not wrong either. No government is to allow murderous invading outsiders to murder the citizens the government is entrusted to protect. No more than a cop that does not allow murder on the block they patrol, even if it means they must kill someone that might otherwise shed innocent blood.

    Furthermore it was God who set the slaves free. From what I understand about Lincoln his priority was to save the union. He would have kept slavery if it fowarded this end. (This over simplifies history I know because Lincoln drew closer to God while the war continued.)

    Thank you for saying what we all already knew. The bottom line is that GOD acted via the reluctant Lincoln and forced Lincoln’s hand in actions that ended slavery in America. Just as God allowed hearts to remain hardened in Southern states, to the point they broke from the Union when the Republican candidate pushing the least to end slavery was elected President. (If they had remained in the Union, who is to say slavery would have ended so soon if we’re hypothetical about it.) The same candidate (Lincoln) that once made a proposal to spread slavery across the nation. Lincoln just wanted the issue settled either way, God ensured it would be the way that freed slaves.

    (If I could have voted in the 1860 Republican Primary, I probably would have voted for Chase. Lincoln certainly was the weakest on the issue that mattered most. But God’s plan was carried out because His Will had to be done.)

    Romans 13 is clear when we don’t avoid verses like #3 and #4.

  89. Charles D. said

    John! How are you doing?

    My last position was and is: I do not feel the same as you on the war thing. I feel secured in both my feelings as well as what I think God would have me feel in temrs of war(s).

    On the other hand, I neither condemn you or your position. I even see where your position might be acceptable in terms of your faith and beliefs, that is to say: Whatever you think is a sin is sin to YOU. However, so long as it do not contravene God’s Word and His Law, and I find liberty in it, then it is not sin to ME!

    Unfortunately our take on few of the scriptures quoted here have differing meanings to us, but, my advise to you is to live the way of Word to your best understanding and I will do the same.

    What says you?


  90. believertiltheend said

    charles, in an earlier message, you stated that just because the government legalized something, it doesn’t make it right. abortion is legal and we all know that it is MURDER. You also said that to know to do something that is right and don’t do it, that is a sin. How can you support a candidate that promotes abortion? You know that abortion is wrong, but you don’t oppose it, which is evidenced by your support of a candidate who promotes it. Those hot-button issues you referred to happen to be issues that go to the very heart of the matter. Jesus said, that my sheep know my voice and will follow no other. Right here and now, I will state that Obama and Hillary ARE NOT Christians!!!!!!! Jesus said those that are TRULY HIS will be known by the fruit they produce! Is the support of abortion fruit of a person who claims to believe in our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ? I don’t believe it is. By your strong belief and support of Obama, I can’t help but wonder about your own salvation. Obama may win, but we know that the earth is satan’s dominion. So why not have a devil for president.

  91. Charles D. said

    Believertilthe end, I so wish your name was readertiltheend, or even understandwhatireadtilthe end. Your first of what should be a paragraph:

    ” 1) charles, in an earlier message, you stated that just because the government legalized something, it doesn’t make it right. abortion is legal and we all know that it is MURDER. 2) You also said that to know to do something that is right and don’t do it, that is a sin. How can you support a candidate that promotes abortion?”

    covering one point (abortion) contain at least 3 errors, then, I stop counting. The point that I numbered 1)is just common sense. Not because I said it and admittedly I did do so; was and is true. The remedy? we should follow government until and unless government require something of you that conflicts with God’s word. Period. That is and always has been my guide. I alway have said that there is no point system that goes along with sin,i.e., sin is sin is sin. Period! I quickly loose respect for cherry pickers, e.g., one who choose one sin over another to push their agenda or political leanings. By that I mean there are folk out there (purposely did not use Christian) who feel that the unborn fetus or babies in general needs their protection, are helpless, and therefore, you or they feels more worthy than others because you fight for those who cannot fight for themselves. You/they are not more rightous and are less rightous than many whose views are different than your own. Do know if you’ve heard these next few words before, but everytime I encounter someone of your leaning, I very siliently ask them (in my own mind), but did you rob from the temple? I pray that you get my point.

    The other quote you attribute to me, 2) well, if you saw but failed to include my quote about King Cyrus, then you are being disingenuous and further words need not be exchanged. On the off chance that you missed them, I will say again that I believe that God can choose whomever He will to fullfil His Word and His Will. I haven’t a clue as to what Barack feels in his heart, however, I’m usually challenged with his views on the gay lifestyle. To me there is no difference, if he fail on the one standard, certainly he fails on the other. I haven’t a clue how he feels about gays, but what I do know is that he married a woman.

    To take your view to an extreme conclusion and I condemn to die every man that breaks God’s law or had views that differ from my own, (please don’t respond with “I didn’t say kill him” because that would be trite, to mention nothing about sophomoric); there would be LOTS of dead folks, maybe you included.

    For my part, you can vote for whomever you please. I do not believe that you will find in these pages, one instance where I unjokingly pointed anyone to any candidate; nor would I. And if you believe nothing else you read here, then, believe this: there is not a single swinging richard either here or abroad who is either wise or cunning enough to change my mind or re-direct my views. In my opinion such a thing would reflect a kind of weakmindedness that I absolutely abhor! Too much military and law enforcement in this background to even consider such a thing. SOOOOOOO! regarding my salvation which is a individual act/process, I’d probably rap someone in the lip or they rap me in mine should they attempt in personal what you have done in writing.

    Okay, to review: Your message did not resinate and I am so going to vote for Barack that I had to use a little mental strength to abandon the idea of voting for him twice.

    So! Belivertil, who are you voting for, or, who do you like in the upcoming presidential election. In the event you say (what someone such as yourself would say “noneofum”) mine is a two-parter.


  92. believertiltheend said

    Charles, are you not concerned that an Obama administration could overturn the changes to abortions made in the past few year. How, as a Christian, can you support a candidate that is in favor of; here comes the standard “killing innocent babies”. If people like me, do not take a stand against murder, will you? Or will you prefer to guard the apple orchard? It really comes down to one thing. Either your beliefs are correct or mine are. Oh by the way, are you a member of PETA? I do have concern over your salvation. As I do everyone else.

  93. Charles D. said

    Tit for tat:

    Hey! Put my salvation on hold for a moment will ya? You’re killing me already with your blantant disregard for my noodle, or, lack thereof! Now (from the below question,) git to it

    So! Belivertil, who are you voting for, or, who do you like in the upcoming presidential election. In the event you say (what someone such as yourself would say “none of um”) mine is a two-parter.


  94. believertiltheend said

    Charles, I have really struggled over this decision. For starters, I will never vote for a liberal like clinton or obama. These people are using religion to reach voters they would not normally get. I believe that the liberals learned in the last election how powerful the conservative voting section of the country is and are playing up to it(pretending to have a belief in God, but when you look at their past voting records and the wickedness that they support, their claims of having a belief in God is proven to be false. Even demons know God and tremble. On the Republican side, I am shocked that mccain is going to be the republican choice. I do not agree with some people’s view “choose the lesser of two evils”. Evil is still evil. I believe that mccain is not much better than clinton or obama. Our country is truly in dire straits. I have been praying over this. I believe that God will direct my path when it is time to vote. My joy lies in the fact that each day that passes brings us one day closer to the return of my Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ. I hope that this response was suitable. I will remember you in my prayers.

  95. Charles said


    First of all, I want to compliment you on your ability and willingness to at least give me credit for having a brain. I don’t mean that in a negative way, this is just the way I am. That being said, I have a few comments for you, then, some observations. I read through your comments and thought you were comparing Dems and Repubs, especially, this part: “(pretending to have a belief in God, but when you look at their past voting records and the wickedness that they support, their claims of having a belief in God is proven to be false,” but you were still speaking to democrats. Examples: just before, during his first term as president, George Bush simply could not stop talking about his faith, about how much he prays, and so many things that were directed for the “Christian Right.” President Bush leaned on the “Christian Right” for all of his major programs and applying pressure on Congress to move his agenda forward. He talked a little less about his faith and prayers during his second term, and now, it is rare if ever that he will talk about his faith or prayer habits.

    You might also remember that a young staffer who resigned from the White House, in part, because the President, Dick Chaney, and certain cabinet members laughed at the “Christian Right” behind their backs and talked about how gullible and foolish they were/are. You might also remember that through Bushes’ “Faith-based Initiatives” this is where he used the guise of spending what use to be known as “block grants” through faith groups so as to entice them to think that his faith was at work. In reality, nothing changed. He channeled those funds only through that portion of the “Christian Right” that were politically well-connected and financially well-heeled, and which would translate into votes and conservative candidates running for office at the local, state, and federal levels. That took some gall in my opinion because God will and occasionally does inject Himself into the affairs of man.

    Personally, I abhor both terms, e.g., “liberal” and “conservative” because for whatever reason, the bottom line remains the same; that far too many citizens use the term liberal as a way of describing their lifestyle and where they place limits on what they will and will not do. And the moniker “conservative” has been reduced to a buzzword for “racist” and what their views and leanings are in terms of society and people different than themselves. Granted, there are a few people who use the term not realizing what the terms mean to those that have and can exercise their influence in getting things done for their race, church, business, and social circle that the other group cannot penetrate.

    Again, thanks for your comment – but where the rubber meets the road, who are you going to vote for????? And if you’re still not sure, how sane would it be for me to follow your lead?
    Be Blessed


  96. concerned said

    I have not seen the adds put out by Mccain but from the very first time I saw Obama and heard him speak I knew that he was the AntiChrist. Itis not a joke like macCain makes it out to be Barack Obama really is the AntiChrist that the bible speaks of.
    At first things will seem to get better gas prices will go down wages will go up everyonewill recieve health care. Israel will sign peace agreement. Then Obama will be injured or wounded in the head and make a meraculous recovery. Everyone will think him to be the messiah.
    This is not a joke but very real MacCain just don’t know it .
    Be very careful what you wish for you may just get it. Obama is not what he seems to be he’s a wolf in sheeps clothing trust be I saw this when he anounce that he was running for president

  97. Job said


    Barack Obama is not the anti – Christ. The anti – Christ will deceive the whole world, including virtually all Christians. Barack Obama deceives no one.

  98. concerned said

    Okay even my parent say that he is not ” quote ” ” unquot” the antichrist. Maybe an maybe not one thing though Barack has a multitude of followers making up songs says his and American prayer.
    He is hope, please I am no moron, and neither are you mislead binded by his speechs of hope for America.
    Speeches telling you he wants everyone to be equal no rich no middle class just poor dependent people that depend on him to be mercyful and give them a grum of bread.
    This may seem judgemently butI know what see, and I see very plainly.
    Now Mccain he is a moron too just not as big of a moron either way America is screwed finish over and done with.
    Hold on to you butt because whom ever gets in office the ride will be a disaster trust me we are ****** bad.

  99. James said

    Obama has some Christians chanting his name. Oprah and her pantheon chant OBAMA! OBAMA!

  100. Concerned said

    Okay the Election of a life time is just weeks away, the fate of our beloved Country stands in the blance.
    Will you elect a president who has never defended his Country like Clinton. Or will you elect a man that will defend the Constitution that men long ago died for.
    The fact that Obama is back is of little importance wat is important is the Democrates want to take your freedoms away and you are so willing to give it up.
    If a blind man leads a blind man both of them will fall into the ditch are better reap destuction.
    This November be very careful if you vote the wrong way you may just not like what you get.
    Barack Obama is wrong for this Country no because his Black it is because he is and extremist far left to far.

  101. Job said


    This is the election of a lifetime? Funny, they said the same thing in 1968, 1976, 1980, 1984, 1992, 2000, and 2004. Either we elected the wrong guy every single time, or it really doesn’t matter.

  102. James said

    This is like the election of Mandela only much greater. Obama is a religion.

  103. Desiree said

    Jesus is the son of God and the ONLY way to Heaven. To all the true Christians who are washed in the blood of the lamb remember: Don’t cast your pearls before Charles,(Opps I mean swine.) One day you will have to face the Lord God and be accountable for your actions. Remeber that as you go about your life. Live for Christ.

  104. Paul West said

    I don’t doubt it??? The Israelis certainly have a lot to fear from this (quite obvious to most) “Wolf in sheep’s clothing” I find myself kinda confused here by the corporate ran media’s lack of concern for our nations already compromised (by an enemy from within) security. Where in the world are those Republicans when we really need a strong opposing voice in Washington? Who now represents us? the answer is obvious to me, and a bitter pill to swallow (to coin a phrase) the truth is, there aren’t any left with a God-given backbone to confront this Muslim devil and his cabinet of illegitimate demons.

  105. Lady said

    Most of you are the false christ and will be the ones to destroy this great country. You are going to burn deep in the pit of hell. Don’t forget the Tower of Babel.People like you is the reason the God destroyed it, splite the tongues and changed the skin color to many. Damn all of you.

  106. Stung! said

    Explain unholy baptism of Illuminati “Free” \m/asons, esoteric initiations, Kundalini, and spiritual captivity Revelation Ch. 13,10?
    Have you been processed through the Illuminati Satanic \m/afia’s esoteric initiation performed through altered states of consciousness / transcendental meditation and received the unholy baptism of the New World Order Revelation 13,10?
    David Spengler of the United Nations says that all people must go through this esoteric initiation and worship L:Lucifer / the Devil to enter the New Age of enlightenment,
    Helena Blavatsky refers to it as a Universal mind set.
    Benjamin Cream says that all people of the world will be able to here a spirit voice speak to them of ancient wisdom through telepathy simultaneously in there own language.
    Have you been taken spiritually captive yet Revelation 13,10, and received the unholy baptism of eternal damnation Revelation 13,20? “Those who go into captivity into captivity they will go! Shhhhh its suppose to be a secret.
    Are you aware of the terms WITCHCRAFT, DEMONOLOGY, AND SUBVERSIVE ACTS OF TERRORISM? If you haven’t, You haven’t discovered the Illuminati Satanic \m/afia!!!
    What do you get when you put the “Free” \m/asons and associates, \m/afia and associates, New Age \m/ovement and associated WITCHCRAFT cults together? Do you get a SICK, SICK, SICK family reunion and fuel for the fire? SHHHHH its a secret!!!

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