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The Purpose Driven Campaign: Mike Huckabee Shows His True Colors By Apologizing To Mormon Mitt Romney

Posted by Job on December 13, 2007

Make no mistake, by apologizing to Mitt Romney, Mike Huckabee chose political ambition over the true gospel of Jesus Christ. People, there is nothing to apologize for here. First of all, Mormons believe that Jesus Christ is a creature, a created being. Now the Mormon religion of Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, and similar specifically sought to distinguish themselves from Christianity, to the point of calling us “apostates” and “Gentiles.” Their modern goal, however, is to get Mormonism to be regarded “a Christian denomination” so that people will view going from Mormonism to Christianity as being no different from going to Presbyterianism to Lutheranism or Methodism to Baptism. So they do not make it publicly known that Mormonism holds Jesus Christ to be a creature. Instead, they tell you that they regard Jesus Christ as the son of God, and leave it at that. Of course, their hope is that the person who hears that will do so according to the assumptions inherent in Christianity, and presume that Mormons believe the same thing that we do. They do not. Christians know that Jesus Christ is uncreated but rather has always existed as part of the Triune Godhead, the same as the Father and equal to the Father. Mormons claim that God created Jesus Christ just as He created bugs and rocks. Further, consider the fact that Christianity knows that God and Jesus Christ are of the same essence or substance. This cannot be according to Mormonism, for the Mormon god does not truly “create”, call things into existence out of nothing, but rather reorganizes matter that already exists. So while it is incorrect to say that the Mormon Jesus was created by nebular space dust, he cannot be of the same essence or substance as the Father, cannot be equal to the Father, and cannot in any sense be deity. And this leaves alone the fact that Mormonism holds that God the Father Himself was a man who progressed to godhood.

So is the notion that Jesus Christ and Satan are spirit brothers offensive to Mormons and should not be said? Well consider this: the notion was not first said by Christians! Rather, it was first said by Mormons themselves! This is where such comments can be found:

Bruce R. McConkie The Mortal Messiah, Vol.1, Pg.407-408
Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, on page 744
Joseph Fielding Smith Jr., Doctrines of Salvation, Vol.2, Pg.218 -Pg.219
Joseph Fielding Smith Jr., In the Discourses of Brigham Young, on Pg.53-54
Joseph Fielding Smith’s Gospel Doctrine, on Page 371
Otten & Caldwell, Sacred Truths of the Doctrine & Covenants, Vol.2, Pg.28
John A. Widtsoe Evidences and Reconciliations, Pg.209
James E. Talmage in his book, “Jesus the Christ,” on Pages 132 & 133
Neal A. Maxwell, in his book Deposition of a Disciple, on Pages 11 & 12
Sterling W. Sill, writing for the Improvement Era, December 1970, Pg.79
Spencer W. Kimball, Conference Report, April 1964, Pg.95
Spencer W. Kimball, Faith Precedes the Miracle, Pg.87
Spencer W. Kimball, The Miracle of Forgiveness, Pg.216, The Savior’s Example
The Teachings of Spencer W. Kimball, Pg.33, 163

This is far from a comprehensive list, but rather what appears on a single web page, which also contains the relevant quotes from those passages that I did not include for space purposes. Of course, Mormons will say that they are taken apart from context, and that is not entirely unfair. But that ignores the fact that 1. the false teaching exists to be taken apart from context to begin with and 2. their attempts to place it into proper context generally consists of little more than attempting to demonstrate that their doctrine is justified in the Bible. The primary purpose of their claim that their teachings are misunderstood and taken out of context is to avoid having to admit their doctrine that Jesus Christ is a mere creature and it is further extremely unlikely that Christians would have said such a thing – for it is one thing to be a creature but quite another to be Satan’s brother – had Mormons themselves not first said so.

Mitt Romney knows this. That is why the speech of his that is being given so much praise by the religious right apostates specifically called Jesus Christ the Son of God but went no further, with Romney dishonestly claiming that saying any more violates the spirit of Article 6 of the Constitution. Well why even say that Jesus Christ is the Son of God since Jews, Muslims, and even liberal Christians in the tradition of Martin Luther King, Jr. who believe that Jesus Christ was just an ordinary man cannot say the same? Simple: Romney does not so much fear “anti – Mormon bigotry” as he is insistent upon making acceptance of Mormonism and his candidacy a package deal.

Is Romney overtly evangelizing in the sense that he is passing out Mormon tracts at campaign events? No. But by establishing terms where it is inappropriate to talk about the differences between Mormons and Christians by exploiting not so much as Article 6 but the concept of “civil public religion” that was created in the early days of this country so that there could be cooperation between Unitarians, deists, freemasons, Enlightenment agnostics, and Christians and was recreated under the banner of “the religious right” to unite Catholics, Jews, and evangelical Christians, Romney is trying to get Mormonism included within the religious political mainstream. Please realize that this religio – political mainstream was never formed to promote spiritual aims – for the groups have disparate spiritual beliefs and agendas – but rather for secular ones. In other words, the civil religion of our founding fathers and of the modern religious right is in fact no less than the very secular humanism that these people hypocritically claim to oppose, and the hypocrisy is no less than Mitt Romney taking the position that his own Article 6 views should not apply to an atheist.

What Romney and his allies are doing is using politics to advance the evil notion that a false religion is just as good as Christianity so long as “you have the right values.” Basically, it is a values based – or should I say works based – universal common religion. In that respect, it is no different from the religious left! For an example, let us turn to the center of the Roman Catholic – Jewish – evangelical neoconservative universalism, the National Review, specifically comments from their “The Corner” weblog.

Mormonism & “Weirdness” [Mike Potemra]

Thanks to all the readers who passed along their kind words in response to my post about Mormons. To the readers, on the other hand, who have written me about how I should be worried about the (in the words of one) “extremely strange” and “Scientology-level strange” beliefs of Mormons, here’s my response: In my own faith, we believe that the cause of all evil was a single mistake by human beings many millennia ago—but that the situation was set right . . . because we murdered an innocent man 2,000 years ago. Therefore: I’m not about to throw stones about beliefs that sound weird to people who don’t share them. (First of all, Christians do not oppose Mormonism because it is “weird” but because it is WRONG. And if you are unwilling to throw stones, then it is only because you believe Christianity to be a glass house. Therefore, you are not a believer.)

Michael Novak and Mormonism [Mike Potemra]

I want to second something Michael Novak said. In my decades’ worth of meeting people from many different religious backgrounds, I have found that in every faith tradition-Protestant, Catholic, Jewish, Muslim, Hindu, what have you-there is roughly the same proportion of nice people and jerks. To this rule there is one conspicuous exception: Mormons. I have yet to meet a single Mormon who has been a jerk-and I have met many LDS believers. As someone who grew up in Rudy Giuliani’s faith, and is now somewhere between Mike Huckabee’s and John McCain’s, I find Mitt Romney’s religious background a factor that makes me more, rather than less, likely to vote for him. (Of course, this means that Potemra is not black, so the Mormon teaching that blacks are the cursed seed of Ham means nothing to him. Potemra also has not administered a weblog which calls Mormonism a false religion that will fill you full of demons and send you to the lake of fire for an eternity, because if he did he would CERTAINLY encounter a multitude of Mormons that are not nearly so nice. Even were what he said true … so what? Where in the Bible does it say that “nice people” are going to heaven? Was Jesus Christ being “nice” when He drove the thieves from the temple and told the Pharisees that invited Him to their house as a dinner guest that they were going to the lake of fire?)

That is just a few. Basically, read the National Review and you will encounter Catholics who see little difference between Mormons, Jews, and Protestant Christians, evangelicals who see little difference between Mormons, Jews, and Catholics, and Jews who have Catholics, Protestant Christians, and Mormons all in the same boat. The same is true of the Weekly Standard, Human Events, Fox News, the Wall Street Journal, etc. Why? Because it is a secular movement and not a religious one, and Romney’s agenda is to get Mormons a seat at this secularist table that exploits religious organizations to pursue their secular goals.

And why not? Mormons outnumber Jews numerically, and to be quite honest the GOP party machinery would much rather keep evangelicals within the same position as the Democrats have blacks: seen on election day and given token representation in response, but nothing in terms of actual power or setting an agenda. And that is why these people have the sharp knives out for Huckabee for being a fiscal moderate but are just fine with Rudy Giuliani for being to the left of most Democrats on social issues. The concessions that Romney and Giuliani had to make to govern with Democrats are just fine, but Huckabee is held to some mythic Barry Goldwater standard (hypocritically of course, because the Barry Goldwater in this race, Ron Paul, they hate him too!).

Why? Because rank and file evangelicals are motivated by religion, and not some vision of the way things ought to be based on their secular views, and the GOP does not want anyone representing them to gain real power. The truth is that the GOP has the same view of evangelicals as the left does: fanatics seeking to make the United States a Christian Taliban regime. They just will not admit it because they need evangelicals to retain power so that they can implement their secular ideas. In that respect, they are no different from Democrats, who in case you have noticed is in no hurry to actually be governed by blacks.

So how does getting involved with this den of liars and thieves advance Mormonism? Simple. If Mormonism is included within our “conservative secular religion”, as we well know what is considered acceptable in the secular realm will also be considered acceptable in mainstream Christianity. So just as conversions from evangelical Christianity into Roman Catholicism, once unthinkable, has become not only commonplace but even trendy thanks to the religious right (and see how one of the first prominent religious right leaders to do so, Richard Neuhaus, all but claims Mormonism to be no different from Protestant Christianity here with “The history of Christianity, notably since the sixteenth-century Reformation, is littered with prophets and seers who have reestablished “the true church,” usually in opposition to the allegedly false church of Rome, and then, later, in opposition to their own previously true churches” and many similar statements). And now you have Christianity Today, the most prominent evangelical Christian publication, taking seriously the claim that evangelicals should abandon sola scriptura – scripture alone – and accept manmade tradition in order to accommodate and facilitate the growing intermingling between evangelicals and Catholics. Of course, there is no real difference between accepting the tradition of the Roman Catholic Church and the tradition of Joseph Smith. Six of one, half a dozen of the other. See Why So Many Prominent Catholics Are Supporting Romney and Bob Novak Joins Catholic Chorus Lying For Mormon Mitt Romney for an example of what I speak.

Truthfully, it is happening already. Here are the comments of evangelical Christian John Schroeder about why Christians should not oppose the teachings that Jesus Christ and Satan are brothers: “Let’s see, we creedal Christians (the new name for Christians for Mormons as calling us apostates and Gentiles is now too strident I guess) believe Satan is a fallen angel; therefore created by God. Save for the by now widely known and completely irrelevant to politics differences in views of the Godhead – Where’s the beef?” here. He is not the only one. Some religious right leaders are actually going about claiming that Mormonism is fully compatible with the Bible, and that the differences are only interpretations, depictions, semantics, etc.

Now Huckabee Hound could expose this whole racket. But he apologizes for telling the truth even in the most timid of fashions! By doing so, Huckabee furthers the precedent that Christians cannot speak the truth outside of a church setting (and even now, the religious right sharks are digging through his old sermons to find information to embarrass him) by retreating from it. Now is this about respecting the beliefs of Mormons? Of course it is, and Christians should have no respect for a lie. Having respect for a lie is akin to either declaring agnosticism on the lie being true or pretending that all liars will have any other fate than the lake of fire. And it has nothing to do with disrespecting Mormons themselves. Disrespecting anyone, Mormons included, is a sin because we are all created in the image of God.

Take the person that claims that 1 + 1 = 3. Should we respect that man? Of course, for he is made in the image of God. Should we respect that man’s belief that 1 + 1 = 3? Of course not, for we know that it is a lie! And do not think that believing that 1 + 1 = 3 (and all of the negative assumptions and deductions that would follow from it) is a trivial matter. Would you hire such a person as an engineer to design dams and bridges? As a pharmacist to fill prescriptions? Of course not! Suffering such a person in that matter will result in the natural deaths of innocent people. So how much less should we have respect for a false religion that will result in people being cast into the lake of fire for eternity?

Now it does turn out that Mormons do not believe the same about Christians, believing that Christians who do good works will receive positive accommodations by God in the afterlife (by the way, this was not the original teaching of Joseph Smith, a fact which many Mormons are unaware of) and get highly offended when they hear of Christians consigning them to the lake of fire. But why should we have any more respect to the offense given to Mormons on this matter than anyone else? And if we are not willing to offend with the gospel, then we have no gospel.

Again, Huckabee knows this. Huckabee did not apologize on the account of Mormons, from whom he knows he will receive precious few votes. Huckabee apologized to curry favor with those who believe “if this is what Huckabee believes about Mormons, then he believes the same about me … that I am going to the lake of fire too, and I am offended by that!” Huckabee’s apology was not for the benefits of Mormons that reject Jesus Christ, but non – Mormons who do, and that includes not a few professed Christians that are politically conservative but practice a modern humanistic faith that either does not condemn anyone with “good values” to the lake of fire or does not force them to be confronted with the reality of the horror that actual living, breathing people that they see every day are going to receive this most horrible fate. And yes, he also apologized for the benefit of legitimate evangelical Christians that are hesitant to vote for anyone “divisive” and “controversial” and were attracted to Huckabee precisely because of his populist positive campaign (a formula that he learned from Rick Warren’s Purpose Driven apostate movement: Why The Media Likes Mike Huckabee So Much: He Is A Rick Warren Worker!). If Huckabee used the Warren method to grow a tiny Arkansas church to a 10,000 person megachurch, then getting Christian voters to choose him over Rudy Giuliani is no small accomplishment. The problem is that he is getting evangelicals to vote for him for the same theologically thin, suspect, and compromised reasons that he, Warren, and other Purpose Driven/emergent types get people to join their churches in the first place.

And the Rick Warren piece is key here. While Huckabee is using electoral politics to recruit conservative evangelicals through presidential process, Rick Warren is going after liberals and those in other religions. First of all, note his relationship with – gasp! – MORMONS!

Rick Warren ‘Works With’ and ‘Strengthens’ Mormon Churches and Other Non-Christian Sects

Second, see how Warren is going after Muslims: ISLAM AND CHRISTIANITY: THE DEITY OF CHRIST and also Rick Warren Universalist Apostasy Meeting Details Here!

The “Islam and Christianity” link above reminds me of how TBN is using Jeremiah Cummings as well as the oneness preachers like T. D. Jakes, Noel Jones, Juanita Bynum, and Tommy Tenney to court Islam: TBN: REPAINTING ISLAM and
Trinity Broadcasting Network Tries To Merge Islam And Christianity!. And yes, TBN has made overtures to Mormons before: Mormons, Muslims, Oneness Pentecostals, And TBN, OH MY!

These all cannot be coincidences people. There is too much going on here with groups like the Center For National Policy (a Sun Myung Moon shadow group, see Want A List Of Pastors Who Took Sun Myung Moon’s Money?) and the Council on Foreign Relations (who counts Bill Clinton, George H. W. Bush, Newt Gingrich, Oprah Winfrey, T. D. Jakes, and RICK WARREN among is members and the Center for National Policy as one of its umbrella groups in the United States) for it to be. It is called the great apostasy people, the falling away of 2 Thessalonians 2:3!

By apologizing to a man whose beliefs that he knows are false for the “crime” of doing the world a favor and letting them know that they are false, Mike Huckabee shows that he is part of it. For Huckabee is after power, influence, and the things and cares of this world. James 4:4 says this about people like Huckabee Hound: “Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.” I suppose that Huckabee and those like him would have been highly offended at James for calling him a spiritual adulterer and an enemy of God, but I can guarantee you that James would never have apologized for it.


183 Responses to “The Purpose Driven Campaign: Mike Huckabee Shows His True Colors By Apologizing To Mormon Mitt Romney”

  1. Martin said

    Huckabee was clearly lying when he said he did not know about Mormonism.

    He gave the keynote speech at the 1998 Southern Baptist Convention conference in Salt Lake City. The press will get that tape and make Huckabee not only look like and even bigger fool, but a liar as well.

  2. Job said


    Oh wow, I forgot about the whole “I do not know about Mormonism” thing. I just chalked that up to typical political dishonesty. The fact that it is an outright lie in the Christian sense just flew over my head. I guess I was desensitized to it maybe. Well, I actually think that the media is going to keep Huckabee in it for awhile. And also there is the fact that a lot of evangelicals are going to support this guy pretty much no matter what, just like they continued to support George W. Bush years after he said that Muslims and Christians worship the same God! It is almost like we are dealing with an evil spirit that causes these people to follow these political leaders no matter what. Now that the leading televangelists are coming out for Huckabee, the guy is going to have a built – in advantage in a lot of states that will keep him going for quite awhile. I am thinking that the net result will be throwing the nomination to Rudy Giuliani, who stands to benefit the most from the confusion. Do not think that the media does not know this.

  3. As the old saying goes, “The road to Hell is paved with good intentions.”……& yet I wonder how many times it has been the case that many of us in our actions begin to lay down the first stones there & not even realize that we’re traveling it.To illustrate, some history should be considered:

    2 Chronicles 17

    Jehoshaphat King of Judah

    1 Jehoshaphat his son succeeded him as king and strengthened himself against Israel. 2 He stationed troops in all the fortified cities of Judah and put garrisons in Judah and in the towns of Ephraim that his father Asa had captured. 3 The LORD was with Jehoshaphat because in his early years he walked in the ways his father David had followed. He did not consult the Baals 4 but sought the God of his father and followed his commands rather than the practices of Israel. 5 The LORD established the kingdom under his control; and all Judah brought gifts to Jehoshaphat, so that he had great wealth and honor. 6 His heart was devoted to the ways of the LORD; furthermore, he removed the high places and the Asherah poles from Judah. 7 In the third year of his reign he sent his officials Ben-Hail, Obadiah, Zechariah, Nethanel and Micaiah to teach in the towns of Judah. 8 With them were certain Levites—Shemaiah, Nethaniah, Zebadiah, Asahel, Shemiramoth, Jehonathan, Adonijah, Tobijah and Tob-Adonijah—and the priests Elishama and Jehoram. 9 They taught throughout Judah, taking with them the Book of the Law of the LORD; they went around to all the towns of Judah and taught the people. 10 The fear of the LORD fell on all the kingdoms of the lands surrounding Judah, so that they did not make war with Jehoshaphat. 11 Some Philistines brought Jehoshaphat gifts and silver as tribute, and the Arabs brought him flocks: seven thousand seven hundred rams and seven thousand seven hundred goats. 12 Jehoshaphat became more and more powerful; he built forts and store cities in Judah 13 and had large supplies in the towns of Judah. He also kept experienced fighting men in Jerusalem. 14 Their enrollment by families was as follows:
    From Judah, commanders of units of 1,000:

    Adnah the commander, with 300,000 fighting men; 15 next, Jehohanan the commander, with 280,000; 16 next, Amasiah son of Zicri, who volunteered himself for the service of the LORD, with 200,000. 17 From Benjamin:

    Eliada, a valiant soldier, with 200,000 men armed with bows and shields; 18 next, Jehozabad, with 180,000 men armed for battle. 19 These were the men who served the king, besides those he stationed in the fortified cities throughout Judah.

    Jehosaphat was a righteous man after God’s heart, & he did much to reform the nation from where it once was. The people of Judah were Biblically illiterate, never taking the time to listen to and discuss God’s law and understand how it could change them. Jehosophat realized that knowing God’s commands was the first step to getting people to live as they should, so he initiated a nationwide religious education program

    However, despite all of the good that Jehosaphat accomplished & how deeply he was committed to God, he fell into the same mentality of Good INTENTIONS being sufficient to justify decisions. At one point, he allied himself with the infamous King AHAB, in a bid to “strengthen the nation”. He solidified this alliance by arranging for his son to marry Athaliah, the daughter of wicked King Ahab of Israel, and then made a military alliance with him……..with Jehoshaphet’s popularity/power making him ATTRACTIVE to the cunning/opportunistic Ahab (II Chronicles 1Cool

    Though Jehosaphat had believed he was doing a “good thing”, the effects of his alliance were devastating due to 3 consequences: (1) Jehoshaphat incurred God’s Wrath (II Chronicles 19:2); (2) It was through ATHALIAH that Judah was exposed to the EVIL PRACTICES OF ISRAEL, FOR SHE HELPED PROPAGATE BAAL WORSHIP IN JUDAG & THIS EVENTUALLY LED TO THE SOUTHERN KINGDOM’S DECLINE/downfall (II Kings 8:18-29)….& 3.)

    When Jehosophat died and Attialiah’s son, as well as her husband perished (II Kings 9-10), Athaliah became Queen, she seized the throne and almost WIPED OUT ALL THE DESCENDANTS OF DAVID (II Chronicles 22:10-12).

    All of that said, one will QUICKLY GET THE PICTURE that while Jehosophat’s alliance with Ahab may’ve been POLITICALLY ADVANTEGOUS, it was SPIRITUALLY DEADLY…….& though he probably didn’t wish for all of the consequences of his decisions to happen, the damage was done.

    All because of GOOD INTENTIONS…….and the fact that ISRAEL & JUDAH HAD “SIMILAR VALUES”…..

    The same scenario isn’t an ISOLATED ONE. Anyone who’s honestly studying throughout the books of I-II Kings and I-II Chronicles will quickly find that out…..

    It happened with Jehosaphat’s father before him, II Chronicles 15, before his confidence in God began to slip & he began to rely on human means via alliances with PAGAN NATIONS…II Chronicles 16, rather than turning to the God who helped him earlier, II Chronicles 14…….)

    It happened with nearly all of the Kings after Jehoshaphat in Judah…..

    It happened with Israel after the split of the nation, where King Jereboam set up his own worship centers and told in people it was too far to travel to Jerusalem (which was in the ENEMY NATION OF JUDAH), all for the sake of being “PRACTICAL”/SECURING HIS POSITION….and consequently, his actions resulted in a religion that had nothing to do with the original and eventually resulted in era of apostacy that Israel never recovered from (I Kings 12).

    It happened with the ORIGINAL KING OF ISRAEL, SOLOMON….for back in his day, marriages between royal families was a common practice in the ancient Near EAST because it secured PEACE…..and although Solomon’s marital alliances built friendships with surrounding nations that were necessary for dealing with COMMON PROBLEMS they ALL HAD, THEY WERE ALSO THE BEGINNING OF HIS DOWNFALL. These alliances became inroads for pagan ideas and practices. And Solomon’s foreign wives eventually brought their gods to Jerusalem and eventually led him into idolatry (I Kings 3:1-3, I Kings 11:1-6)

    The same thing also happened before Israel even had a king, for the people were given EXPLICIT INSTRUCTIONS NOT TO DEVELOP ALLIANCES WITH THOSE WHO DIDN’T BELIEVE IN THE SAME GOD/HIS STANDARDS (Deuteronomy 7-31, Joshua 23), but they choose otherwise.

    Seeing that the Israelites were nomadic people, they may’ve been reluctant to settle down, preffering to depend ECONOMICALLY on the people they were supposed to destroy and whose influence they were to have nothing to do with.

    Some feared the high cost of continued warfare,, seeing trading for goods as an easier route and more profitable than resisting them….. The RESULT: On the Eve of fully conquering the Land, they chose to make business alliances with the people there……& A 400 YEAR LONG “DARK AGE” happened WHERE THERE WAS NO LONGER ANY OBJECTIVE STANDARD OF TRUTH AND “EVERYONE DID WHAT WAS RIGHT IN THEIR OWN EYES ( Joshua 15:63, Joshua 16:10, Joshua 17-18, Judges 1-16)

    The list could go on, but I bring all of that up because, as the old saying goes, “there’s nothing NEW under the sun….” (Ecclesiastes 1:8-10)….& the same thing is happening today.

    I’m very concerned regarding his mentality. Many Christians seem to have the same as well, but never seem to want to go to the Word to see what it has to say…..and regarding SCRIPTURE, when believers in leadership positions becomed allied with unbelievers, values can be compromised and spiritual awareness dulled. This is something that the Bible often warns against:

    2 Corinthians 6:13-17

    Do Not Be Yoked With Unbelievers
    14Do not be yoked together with unbelievers. For what do righteousness and wickedness have in common? Or what fellowship can light have with darkness? 15What harmony is there between Christ and Belial[a]? What does a believer have in common with an unbeliever? 16What agreement is there between the temple of God and idols? For we are the temple of the living God. As God has said: “I will live with them and walk among them, and I will be their God, and they will be my people.”[b]
    17“Therefore come out from them
    and be separate, says the Lord.
    Touch no unclean thing,
    and I will receive you.”[c]

    This passage is one where even Paul urges believers NOT TO FORM BINDING RELATIONSHIPS with non-believers, because this might weaken their Christian Commitment, Integrity, and Standards. It would simply be a mismatch.

    Earlier, Paul had explained that this did not mean ISOLATING oneself from non-believers, for then we wouldn’t be able to carry out Christ’s Command to tell them about Salvation (Matthew 28:18-20, I Corinthians 5:9-10),…..and we have been admonished to DISTANCE OURSELVES FROM ANYONE WHO CLAIMS THE NAME OF CHRIST AND YET INDULGES in SINS EXPLICITLY FORBIDDEN IN SCRIPTURE, later RATIONALIZING THEIR ACTIONS,……FOR in doing so, that person harms others for whom Christ died and DIMS THE IMAGE of God in himself or herself.

    Paul wanted believers to be active in their witness for Christ to non-believers, but they shouldn’t lock themselves into PERSONAL OR BINDING BUISNESS RELATIONSHIPS that could cause them to compromise the faith……& IMHO, RICK WARREN HAS DONE JUST THAT. Seeing that believers are to do EVERYTHING IN THEIR POWER TO AVOID SITUATIONS that could force them to divide their loyalties, this is a SERIOUS ISSUE.

    When God’s Word says for us to expose evil works of darkness (Ephesians 5:8-15), & yet there’s a willingness to avoid that for an apparent “good”, THAT’S A PROBLEM.

    Moreover, when we seem to leave the Word Of God out of decisions as big as what Warren was doing, that’s a problem…… for in doing so, we act just like King Jehoshaphat, who relied on God when the challenges were obvious, like the need for religious education of his people or the threat of War with a vast army (2 Chronicles 17-21:1) & yet ignored God in the day-to-day plans/actions when the odds weren’t clearly against him.

    God’s guidance/faithfulmess when the issues are clear and the enemy overwhelming is more than enough reason to seek His Guidance when the issues are unclear and the enemy is unseen,……but we repeat Jehoshaphat’s error when we regulate God to the background in the “easy decisions of life”. Then when things get out of hand, we want him to get us out of the MESS we got ourselves into

    There’s much more to say on the subject, but I think that’s enough for now……& to the readers, I’d be most interested in hearing your thoughts. As others have wisely said,


    George Bernard Shaw: We learn from history that we learn nothing from history.


    Gustave Flaubert: Our ignorance of history causes us to slander our own times.

    And I do pray that the saints would truly learn from history on this one.

    Proverbs 12:26

    A righteous man is cautious in friendship, but the way of the wicked leads them astray

    .Proverbs 25:26

    Like a muddied spring or a polluted well is a righteous man who gives way to the wicked.

    Isaiah 42:17-23

    23 Which of you will listen to this
    or pay close attention in time to come?

    1 Corinthians 10

    Warnings From Israel’s History

    1For I do not want you to be ignorant of the fact, brothers, that our forefathers were all under the cloud and that they all passed through the sea. 2They were all baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea. 3They all ate the same spiritual food 4and drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ. 5Nevertheless, God was not pleased with most of them; their bodies were scattered over the desert. 6Now these things occurred as examples[a] to keep us from setting our hearts on evil things as they did. 7Do not be idolaters, as some of them were; as it is written: “The people sat down to eat and drink and got up to indulge in pagan revelry.”[b] 8We should not commit sexual immorality, as some of them did—and in one day twenty-three thousand of them died. 9We should not test the Lord, as some of them did—and were killed by snakes. 10And do not grumble, as some of them did—and were killed by the destroying angel. 11These things happened to them as examples and were written down as warnings for us, on whom the fulfillment of the ages has come. 12So, if you think you are standing firm, be careful that you don’t fall! 13No temptation has seized you except what is common to man. And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, he will also provide a way out so that you can stand up under it.


    1 Corinthians 15:33

    Do not be misled: “Bad company corrupts good character.”

  4. Eden Hadassah said

    Easy G!
    I love it when you leave comments.
    Great post!

    Be Blessed.

  5. Angie said

    A lot of those ‘preachers’ have sold out to the devil anyway.

  6. Job said

    Easy G: Wow! That was a ton of strong information, well developed, and everything! Like a 750 word Bible college essay perhaps 🙂 But dude, I noticed that your last weblog post was a week ago! Come on, man, come on! Although that is good for my purposes because I AM GOING TO LINK TO YOUR LAST POST!

  7. Thanks to all for the encouragements. By the way, Bro Job, to note…that one WAS BY me (though it’s really encouraging to know you thought well of it. Didn’t think it in the “Bible Essay” class.)

    You can go here for the issue I originally wrote it on, which was Rick Warren and his willingness to have Barack Obama come to his church to speak becasue of the AIDS issue.

  8. If interested, I seriously encourage everyone to check out Brother IC’s post about the issue too.

    By the way, though I do not know Huckabee’s heart, it did serve to remind me of some things. In originally denouncing Rommey’s Mormonism, it served to remind me of how it’s a trip seeing how often the law is bent MULTIPLE WAYS and in the reality, though many claim to stand for jjustice, they’re often the ones decieving/breaking things

    At this point in the game, it’d probably be best for saints to study the OT (specifically, the Books of I-II Kings and Chronicles), as it was just as messy as the political landscape is today….and QUITE REMINISIENT . Remember Jehu (II Kings 9-10 )?

    As I was discussing at Brother IC’s site, I’ve always found it funny the man was raised up by the Lord to call out/repay the wickedness of Ahab/destroy his evil influence…..and yet so much error was BLATANTLY tolerated in his side of the street. Minus the fact that the man went FAR beyond the Lord’s command with his senseless slaughter/bloodbath (which he was denounced for later by the prophet Hosea, Hosea 1:4-5)The man eliminated one form of idolatry, Baal worship, only to uphold another by continuing to worship the golden calves Jeroboam had set up which CAUSED THE FALL OF ISRAEL TO BEGIN WITH:

    I Kings 12:25-33

    1 Kings 13-14

    II Chronicles 13

    When studying the actions of Jehu, one quickly realizes that his motives were more political than spiritual.

    If he had destroyed the golden calves, his people would’ve traveled to the temple in Jerusalem, in the rival southern kingdom, and worshipped there (which is why Jeroboam set them up in the first place).Baal worship was associated with the dynasty of Ahab, so it was politically ADVANTAGEOUS to destroy Baal. The golden calves, on the other hand, had a longer history in the northern kingdom and were validated by ALL POLITICAL FACTIONS.

    Moreover, Baal Worship was anti-GOD (IN THE OBVIOUS SENSE), BUT THe golden calves were thought by many to be the visible representations of God himself, even though God’s law clearly stated that such worship was idolatrous (Exodus 20:3-6)( Exodus 32)

    As the Word shows, Jehu was devoted to God only to the point that obediance served his own interests….and like Jehu, the same is happening today when men in the name of GODLINESS are denouncing the sins of others while excusing sin in their own lives. Hucakabee coming against the dangers of MORMONISM yet never speaking the dangerous practices of those he’s working with (i.e. Hagee, Copeland, etc) is just another example of this.

    Aint nothin’ new under the sun, Brah………(Ecclesiastes 1:9)

    If it’s surprising to see Hucakabee apologize but still not denounce Mormonism (and for that matter, tolerate keeping quiet on the damaging practices of those he’s hooked up with), consider this:

    Proverbs 28:4

    Those who forsake the law praise the wicked, but those who keep the law resist them.

    Thought it’d be relevant to bring this up, in line with what Sister Art123 said about religion/politics going together & those promoting herectical teachings not having any problem with it.

    As another wisely said of this proverb,

    “Wicked people will speak well of one another, and so strengthen one another’s hands in their wicked ways

    “One covetous man will bless and praise another, whom the Lord abhors, and commend his covetousness as frugality and good husbandry: one proud man will call another happy, and praise him as a man of spirit, that will not debase himself, but keep up his authority, rank, and dignity”


    Go there for the full story. And to note, in case anyone noticed, the girl I referenced named Art123 was one of the commentors at IC’s site.

    Thanks again, brother JOB, for ALL OF THE HARD WORK YOU DO IN KEEPING PEOPLE INFORMED ABOUT THE ISSUES TAKING PLACE IN THE CHRISTIAN WORLD. Even if there may be issues to work on regarding the site or disagreements (whether valid or invalid) from others, the work is still appreciated…..because many others are not willing to do the job, which it all honesty is a matter of spiritual LIFE OR DEATH since it affects our worldview….and which our worldview affects the decisions we make, whether they be for LIFE OR DEATH!!!

    Proverbs 24:10-12

    10 If you falter in times of trouble,
    how small is your strength!

    11 Rescue those being led away to death;
    hold back those staggering toward slaughter.

    12 If you say, “But we knew nothing about this,”
    does not he who weighs the heart perceive it?
    Does not he who guards your life know it?
    Will he not repay each person according to what he has done?

  10. Job said

    Emissary/ Easy G (G²): Oh, please do not get me wrong. I was never at any time accusing you of plagiarizing or anything like that.

  11. Brah, it’s all good……appreciate your fellowship & encouragement REGARDLESS!!!

  12. You said
    ….”Their modern goal, however, is to get Mormonism to be regarded “a Christian denomination” so that people will view going from Mormonism to Christianity as being no different from going to Presbyterianism to Lutheranism or Methodism to Baptism.”

    Why do you think that the LDS have a big conspiracy going? What do we have to gain by fitting in?

    We say we are Christian because WE believe we ARE Christian.

    If you disagree then fine, you are intitled to your own beliefs and opinions.

    Call us what you will.

    Just realize that we are ALSO intitled to our own beliefs and opinions.

    And we will call ourselves Christian, because we are 🙂

  13. This whole thing about Huckabee apologizing about the Mormon comment shows that he is using Christians to get their vote. Typical of Republicans since Reagan. Barrak Obama is a progressive and a Christian. In a speech he gave to an evangelical group, he mentioned that he “heard God’s voice beckoning him” as he gave his life to Christ. It is on his campaign website.


  14. Job said


    And you believe that Obama is a Christian just because he says that he is? That makes him different from Mike Huckabee how? There is more to being a Christian than just calling yourself one. In order to be a Christian, a person has to obey and stand for the teachings of Jesus Christ. I hate to sound simplistic, but a person cannot advocate abortion and homosexuality – which is advocating sin – and be a Christian. You can be a good progressive without advocating sin.

  15. Job said


    Welcome back. Though you did say you were never coming back on account of my strong words to you earlier :-). I will try to be nicer in the future IF you promise to be more open about the differences between my faith and yours, which being a former Lutheran you are well aware of. Incidentally, was it ELCA Lutheranism that you left, or Missouri Synod?

  16. eLLe said

    Ref. Link

    In addition to above original post on Huckabee/Mormonism and Purpose Driven:

    Writer on the link provided—heard Romney give a stump speech which Romney sites “Purpose Driven Life.” Writer says Romney’s utube page list PD as one of his favorite books. The writer misses the point that PD is a false gospel—but, article reveals info. that Romney is PD too!

    God, in heaven, help us! Amen

  17. iknowtruthismine said

    Romney doesn’t stand a snowball’s chance in hell of becoming president. There is no way that Americans are going to put someone into the White House that believes the convoluted fairy-tale of the Mormon religion is anything less than a cult. Decide for yourself, hit the “You Tube” link at under the heading “Mitt Romney’s Hilarious Religious Beliefs” and view the short, but accurate, animated outline of Mormon beliefs. It is every bit as much of a cult as the Moonie cult that supports him.

  18. saltygrl said

    Great response to Huckabee Christmas ad What Really Matters on youtube.

  19. Job,

    New name?

    Well anyways I appreciate your kind words!!!! Did I say NEVER come back? 🙂

    I promise to be open. I have always been honest with you regarding my beliefs. But you must understand that I do not speak for the church, I speak for myself. I will NOT lie about what I believe. I have no reason to!

    So do you like Huck? I DO NOT want him as our leader, I think he is too fake, and we don’t need a “nice” leader, we need a strong leader. I am hoping for Romney. Not because he is Mormon, but because he is strong, smart, and he has great morals. I don’t like any of the other top candidates. Guiliani is a cheat, the rest are no good.

    Oh and…
    My Lutheran church was Missouri Synod. Infact my uncle is a Lutheran pastor in CA.

  20. Steffielynn said:

    Did I say NEVER come back?


    I am hoping for Romney. Not because he is Mormon, but because he is strong, smart, and he has great morals.

    Well the first statement is a lie and you know it Steffielynn. You said you would never return and you have. So you’ve lied.

    The 2nd statement, given the first lie very likely is a lie too. Romney loses in Iowa and the very next day Steffielynn shows up again after being away for weeks. So Steffielynn, did the cult leaders put you up to coming here and pulling for Romney or what?

    Given you have lied, you have sinned. You’re going to need to start walking with the Jesus Christ of the Bible, because the Mormon “jesus” who has a father and a grandfather and a great grand father and so on can’t help you now.

    Yes LDS is full of lies.

    Psalm 90:2 (King James Version)

    2 Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God.

    Deuteronomy 6:4 (King James Version)

    4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:

    God is not some product of some other “god” in some continuum of “gods” who worked His way to having glory. There is ONE GOD, not a council of celestial gods.

    Here is what the cult of Joseph Smith Junior claims and it’s a direct quote from their cult “Book of Abraham”:
    Abr. 4: 1-12

    1 And then the Lord said: Let us go down. And they went down at the beginning, and they, that is the Gods, organized and formed the heavens and the earth.
    2 And the earth, after it was formed, was empty and desolate, because they had not formed anything but the earth; and darkness reigned upon the face of the deep, and the Spirit of the Gods was brooding upon the face of the waters.
    3 And they (the Gods) said: Let there be light; and there was light.
    4 And they (the Gods) comprehended the light, for it was bright; and they divided the light, or caused it to be divided, from the darkness.
    5 And the Gods called the light Day, and the darkness they called Night. And it came to pass that from the evening until morning they called night; and from the morning until the evening they called day; and this was the first, or the beginning, of that which they called day and night.
    6 And the Gods also said: Let there be an expanse in the midst of the waters, and it shall divide the waters from the waters.
    7 And the Gods ordered the expanse, so that it divided the waters which were under the expanse from the waters which were above the expanse; and it was so, even as they ordered.
    8 And the Gods called the expanse, Heaven. And it came to pass that it was from evening until morning that they called night; and it came to pass that it was from morning until evening that they called day; and this was the second time that they called night and day.
    9 And the Gods ordered, saying: Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto bone place, and let the earth come up dry; and it was so as they ordered;
    10 And the Gods pronounced the dry land, Earth; and the gathering together of the waters, pronounced they, Great Waters; and the Gods saw that they were obeyed.
    11 And the Gods said: Let us prepare the earth to bring forth grass; the herb yielding seed; the fruit tree yielding fruit, after his kind, whose seed in itself yieldeth its own likeness upon the earth; and it was so, even as they ordered.
    12 And the Gods organized the earth to bring forth grass from its own seed, and the herb to bring forth herb from its own seed, yielding seed after his kind; and the earth to bring forth the tree from its own seed, yielding fruit, whose seed could only bring forth the same in itself, after his kind; and the Gods saw that they were obeyed.

    Straight from Mormon’s so-called scriptures, polytheism in no uncertain terms. Mormonism teaches a plurality of Gods, the Bible teaches there is ONE God, not just “planned” from everlasting to everlasting, but actually existed.

    The “Book of Abraham” is:

    A Translation of some ancient Records, that have fallen into our hands from the catacombs of Egypt.—The writings of Abraham while he was in Egypt, called the Book of Abraham, written by his own hand, upon papyrus.

    A filthy pack of LIES.

    Mormonism is all LIES.

  21. Charles said

    Hot diggidy d-m; two things:

    1) A certain person said something that I can finally agree with; and

    2) My candidate kicked butt.

    It’s like a bumper crop 🙂

  22. Eden Hadassah said

    Obama did great last night!

  23. Charles said

    Hey Baby Sister:

    I’m not one to say I told you so, but, my candidate “aint” through yet. The one thing I haven’t heard is how Ron Paul ended up.

    Frankly, I have a neighbor with a huge, huge Paul sign on his beautiful home; I have a co-laborer who’s a huge Paul backer, then there is a directorate superior (who I would expect to be very politically skilled, among others). The commonality between the groups is that none have a clue hoe real government “works,” no “runs”, i.e., operates” If they did, they would realize that Paul never stood a chance, at all.

    His ideas mighty have been laudable, maybe even what is needed, but his Achilles heel is that he doesn’t have either the knowledge or abilities to affect those ideas, or implement the things he promised and wanted to do. “Operators” know this and can spot it a mile away. You will notice that during the very early debates, he wasn’t even invited. Just the fact that he is a U.S Legislator merits him that consideration. They wouldn’t have done that to a Byrd and he is elderly; to a Stevens from Alaska and he’s under indictment; but, they did it to a Paul.

    I also know why Paul seems so attractive to certain people and it have only part to do with politics. Hey Fruitcake, I’m going to Mother Mary’s Tearoom tonight.

    Take care,


  24. Obama is horrible.

    His pastor runs a race cult.

    Baby killers give Obama 2 thumbs up!

    A terrible voting record, that is when he does actually show up to vote!

    He not only endorses an abomination, his so-called church group fully embraces it. The UCC has gone apostate and those who know the truth have already run away. (UCC – Obama’s denomination, that had him speak at one of their major events not long ago. I saw it, the person who introduced Obama was blazingly effeminate.) And Obama has said he intends to press church leaders to embrace the abomination.

  25. Charles said

    My partner corrected me, it’s Mary Mac’s

  26. Charles said

    Don’t know if you’ve heard this before but: Tough T said the kitty, but, the milks still sweet! Something like that??? GET OVER IT!!!

  27. Job said


    Obamination? Had you not posted that “Ron Paul is a San Francisco Republican” (to borrow Jeane Kirkpatrick, although Kirkpatrick did not mean it in reference to homosexuality) video, I would be crowing over his getting 10% in Iowa and how that means it would be impossible to exclude him from the future debates. Sadly, the same cannot be said for your guy Duncan Hunter.

    As far as the folks in the race (again excluding Hunter), a joke I read recently fits. In a soccer match between Iran and North Korea, who do you root for? Answer? INJURIES! So, I am hoping that this presidential race fully exposes these candidates so that Christians would know not to support ANY of them, especially Huckabee and Romney.

  28. Job,

    Yea, I figure Hunter might leave soon. A strong 1% does not exactly look promising. When he leaves, I’m just HOPING he does not endorse Romney as Tom Tancredo did. Hunter should leave endorsing no one and run as in Independent in his district, if he seeks re-election to his Congressional post in the future.

    Oh and I’ve got more on Ron Paul, every enemy of saints and Blacks are on Ron Paul’s side.

    I knew Duncan Hunter was a long shot and once he’s out of the race, I’ll be searching outside of the cult of the golden elephant and cult of the other golden thing for a candidate that might be decent.

  29. Charles said

    Duncan was not a bad man. I don’t know about his religous beliefs, but, I really like his views on Defense and foreign policy. I hate to sound stupid, but, I didn’t even know he was running for president.

    America WILL NEVER, EVER, elect a candidate based on his/her religous beliefs alone; that’s a pipe dream on yonder side of reality. Furthermore, anyone using that a single criteria is a very dangerous person.


  30. Eden Hadassah said

    Good luck IC in your search.
    I love logical conclusions and epiphanies concerning picking canditates.

  31. Job said


    I do not choose people based on their professed religious beliefs (because as George W. Bush, Bill Clinton, and Jimmy Carter demonstrated people certainly lie about those) but rather based on their level of hostility to my religious beliefs. Case in point: abortion is murder of the innocent. This is a fact that is not only a core principle of my religion but has also been proven by medical science (Georgia State University’s psychology department was recently recruiting pregnant women for a study of fetal personality development). I will never support someone whose words and record do not reflect a consistent unambiguous unabashed opposition to murder of the innocent.

    Now that is just one example, but no one in this race meets that minimum qualification but Mike Huckabee, Ron Paul, and Duncan Hunter. I have other reasons for opposing Huckabee and Paul. As for Hunter, I suppose that I should be counted confederate with the 99% of Iowa voters that should have given him a closer look, although I should point out that Hunter could have and should have made a name for himself by criticizing President Bush. What is Bush’s approval rating? 30%? If you notice, Mike Huckabee has criticized Bush several times, and he even stated that Republicans who criticized Clinton but not Bush were hypocrites. Looking at the Iowa results, it appears to be a winning message. That is particularly the case when you add Huckabee’s votes to Paul’s, you see that 45% of the people went for the two most anti – Bush people in the race. That is especially impressive when you add that a lot of the independents voted for your guy Obama instead of Paul as was expected.

  32. Even if it was not at all about his cult beliefs, Mitt Romney changes his views with the political wind. (See the later part of that post and see this video too.) Name the political post, what polls well to win it and suddenly Mitt Romney feels that way.

    Romney will even tell you his daddy marched with MLK Jr. if that will get you to vote for him.

  33. Actually IC
    what I said was
    “Healtheland I feel this will be the last time I will be on your site.”
    check for yourself.

    I don’t see “never” in that statement. So no lie! I’m a big girl, i’m allowed to make my own decisions, am I not????

    IC I feel sorry for you, you must be one miserable, unhappy man.

    I’m not a liar, you don’t know me, so you cannot pass judgement. (isn’t THAT a sin!?)

  34. Steffielynn,

    Let’s look at your entire statement:

    Healtheland I feel this will be the last time I will be on your site. I expected to be shown more respect by you, Sadly I did not receive the respect I deserve. I know you will have your own version of why I am leaving, but I hope those who read this will see truth and understand. I wish you the best in life and pray that your heart be softened. In the future I hope you treat other Mormons nicely for they are good people.

    You were leaving for good. But now that you’re back, let’s deal with that greater issue that you continually avoid.

    And now I will be more frank with you than ever before.

    Steffielynn, you are an apostate heretic. You were raised under more sound doctrine and departed it for a cult, that was created to satisfy the lust of a select group of men. You are very much in the process of creating Hebrews 6:4-6 for yourself and once you breath your last breath IT WILL BE TOO LATE STEFFIE LYNN! That fire in your belly will turn into your eternal soul burning, if you don’t turn from that cult and embrace the Lord Jesus Christ of the Bible, who is NOT a lineage of “gods”.

    You were given the truth and like Eve you have allowed a DEAD AND BURNING SERPENT named Joseph Smith Junior to deceive you with another jesus. He being a tool of no other than Satan. God had Paul to warn of such in 2 Corinthians 11:1-4.

    Get back at least to what your parents taught you and embrace it this time as truth.

  35. Charles D. said

    Hey Job:

    You have to forgive me, that I am still on a “high,” not only because Obama won Iowa, but, that he won for reasons that I surmised but did not state publicly.

    I, both, understand and respect your position relative to your personal method of choosing a candidate, BUT, my question for you is: In an instance where there is not a single candidate that subscribe to “opposition to murder of the innocent;” what would you do: 1) Not vote at all 2) write in the name of someone that will not or cannot win 3) What?


  36. Right IC, i’ll get back to my parents teachings. People who claimed to be “Christians” and abused my sisters and I, both mentally and physically. My stepfather was awful and mean and hateful, hmmm kind of like you.

    I prefer to follow GOOD examples, and Mormons are the best!

    And you are correct. I believe in a different Jesus. The one I believe in is loving and kind. And the God I believe in is a loving Father who does not want His children to “burn in hell”

    Your words are silly not scary. The only thing you have accomplished here is reminding me how grateful I am to have the Gospel in my life, and how grateful I am to know what love, kindness and charity are.

    Whatever it is you believe is your opinion and you are entitled to your opinion. That my friend is why we live in this great country.

    You, calling me a liar, for my personal beliefs is totally laughable and ridiculous.

    Do you really think my “leaders” put me up to coming on this site? That is really paranoid. I came to this site because I wanted to, and I like discussing different points of views. Crazy as it may seem, I agree with a lot of the stuff that Job posts here.

    And now I feel we are jacking Jobs thread, I would discuss this on your site, but of course you wont let me, so I apologize Job, I hope I have not offended you by going back and forth with your friend.

    And I hope that you do not mind if I comment here once and a while, Even though we have different opinions I respect you and your beliefs.

    Also if Romney does not win I think he has accomplished more then anyone has given him credit for! But I am still hoping for a win 🙂

  37. Diane said

    Steffielynn, I hope you comment here more than once in a while 🙂

  38. Also Charles, I know you were not asking me, but I would like to give you MY opinion regarding your question in comment 35.

    If I do not like the candidates running I will write in a name. Even knowing this person will not win, I have still exercised my right to vote. I feel that the act of voting is so very important, and if I do not do it I am disrespecting all the people who have fought for my freedoms.

    ***Plus when you vote you reserve the right to complain. 🙂

  39. Thank you Diane! 🙂

    I will!!!! (if Job is ok with it 🙂 )

  40. I think Job has stopped me from posting on his Onneess Liars Site very cowardly of him. He cannot take the arguments.


  41. johnkaniecki said


    Hi hello. I am for one happy that you are on the blog. Christians example is much better than Christian words alone. James says “Faith without deeds is death.”

    But let me tell you a story. I was walking out at night a few weeks ago. As is my habit I talk to people. Among others I met two young men from the Mormon church. They were wearing name tags with Elder Henderson and Elder Cambell.

    Anyway we discussed a lot of things and issues as we walked around. I found them genuninely dedicated young men who knew a lot about the gospel for their age. They were about twenty two years old. We had an enjoyable and edifying night. I gave them a small tour of Montclair and discussed scriptures.

    Among many of the topics we discussed was the fact that they called themselves elders. We actually sat under the street light and read the qualifcations in Timothy and Titus. Among other things an Elder must not be a novice, must be married and must have a respectable wife and children. These men were unmarried and have no children. Furthermore everyone at twenty one is a novice.

    Yet later on when they called to see if they could watch a movie they had with me and my wife they referred to themselves as elders.

    Clearly they are wrong and doing things contrary to the Word of God. They were very nice, respectable and fine young men. Yet they follow the traditions of man rather than the Bible. I know the IndependentConservative is rather blunt but the point must be made, What do you do with the Bible?

    I could point out a hundred things wrong with your faith according to the Bible. (Why? Because I’ve studied books that point these things out.) I wasn’t in anyway harsh with these two young men. I didn’t blast them away with scriptures and to be honest I learned things from the two young men as we talked.

    Yet there is a truth and there is a lie. Do you know the history of the Mormon church. The details of Joseph Smith’s life. What about the way the murdered the Utes on their pilgrimage out west. Just like I can discount the teachings of the Catholic Church for the inquisition and the Pilgrims for the real story of Thanksgiving, I can throw away all the teachings of the Mormons on what they did to the Utes alone. If any of these organizations would admit their wrong and repent I would feel otherwise, but they haven’t.

    I really don’t want to point out every wrong of the Mormon Church. At one time I was in the Catholic faith and found out that the Catholic teachings were not consistent with the Bible. A simple thing like two young, unmarried men calling themselves elders is proof alone they don’t believe the Bible is the Word of God. You can’t pick and choose what you believe in. If that were the case the Bible would be just another book.

    I hope I’m not to heavy on you but these are serious issues and I Love you and I am concerned about your soul.



  42. John you put a genuine smile on my face 🙂 Thank you for your kindness! The normal responses I get, are like IC’s comments, and it is rather tiring, People say they “warn” me and they have done their “job”. But being a TRUE Christian is to be loving and kind, and follow the example of Christ. So I appreciate your genuine love towards me!

    I am more then willing to look into things, and if I can learn something then I am all for it. I have never heard this about Elders. Could you please tell me where you get your info from. I would like to look into it!

    Also to understand where I am coming from you may want to read my post on my blog about how I became a Mormon.

    Here is the link

    Another thing you need to know about what I believe is that I DO NOT worship Joesph Smith. I believe he had many flaws, and was FAR from perfect. There are most certainly warts in the LDS history. But again God is not the cause, man is. Prophets are not, and never have been perfect. There has been only ONE perfect being to walk on this earth!

    Again thank you for your kindness and respect towards me 🙂


  43. Charles D. said


    I respect your rights, including the right to vote, however, your right to complain comes with or without the vote. I’m not sure that I would just write-in a name; I have done that only once in my life time and I think Iwrote “Mickey Mouse” or something equally silly.

    There are people that vote for candidates for the strangest reasons. For instance I spoke with someone who intends to vote for Ron Paul because he’s from Texas and he likes everything Texas. Soldiers fight and perserving America’s freedom is often times a by-product. Soldiers are patriotic, of course, for the most part but what I’m leading up to is that I think “just because we can” is a very poor excuse for voting. I think a like group, a mass group, will grow apathetic and will soon depend on the government to think for them and if not, crooked politician will assume so, without fear of loosing their office because apathetic groups have very short memories.

    We have been in that catch 22 state of affairs for at least 16 years and things weren’t that much better before that time. I’ve ranted long enough. Before leaving however, do you know any Samantha’s from Alaska? My daughter has a best friend who attended BYU and Sam is such a sweet person, I had to ask.


  44. No I don’t know her, I’m sure she is sweet though 🙂

    You misunderstand my reason for voting. I do not vote because I CAN, I vote because if I do not then a lot of people died in vain. I take my vote seriously, and I will vote for whomever I think would be the best president. There are many people that I WILL NOT vote for. I will not vote Republican just because I am one. Right now the only one I like is Romney. I liked Tancredo, and Hunter also, and a few others, who didn’t make it very far.

  45. Oh and I want to expand on WHY I refuse to vote for certain candidates. Like Guliani, I have a HUGE problem with him. Any man that cheats on his wife, the one person in the world he vowed to be loyal to, will likely cheat on the American people. I also refuse to vote for someone who will not be tough on terror and support our troops.

  46. Charles D. said

    Oh, I understood you perfectly. And as a veteran of many years service, I can tell you that not everyone who dies during war time died solely so that you would have the right to vote. I mentioned by-product, hopefully to not offend the sensibilities of some, especially, conservatives. But I will tell you this straight-up, the last thing I was thinking about was someone right to vote. Had they voted differently, I might not have been in the situation that I found myself.

    So while it may be laudable to think so, even now, if I were still on active duty, and you voted for someone you thought was a great candidate, and I thought the same person was c—, do you think my sacrifice included your right to vote?

    You favorite candidate in this instant race, because the LDS had a doctrine, at least, until 1978, that Blacks could not be elevated to positions of authority in the LDS [okay, I’ve had this issue with a Mormon on another thread and have provided the link, so we don’t have to address this here unless you like] my point is..for someone like Romney to belong to a faith that have been so wrong, so anti-Christ, in terms of “loving one another as I have loved you,” as recent as 1978, is fit for the Presidency? To me thats absurd! But not me only, America would never stand for that.
    Matter of factly, if Romney was half as intelligent as he is made out to be, then, he know or should have known the same thing.

    This is not an indictment of your faith, that I did fight for; however, that is pretty much where I draw the line. I am interested in your comments.


  47. Charles D. said

    Okay Steffielynn; haven’t heard back from you. I find this a common reaction by folks of similar beliefs. It is not my job to condemn anyone, so, I hope you did not take my comments as such. I was/am just speaking the bare truth and leave the facts to stand or fall.

    To Everyone:

    Let Obama win next Tuesday and you’re going to hear plenty from me. Job: I fully understand what you mean in #31 concerning your evaluation and potential support for a given candidate, however, you have NOT responded to my question at #35 above. I am sincere;y interested, if for no other reason than to answer the same question of myself (I have not before now). Maybe I have actually done so because we get lots of independents, republicans, but mostly libertarians, greens, and new fools in Alaska. Actually, “resources and conservation are treated more as a denomination than some better known faiths.

    Come on, give me a peek into your process. 🙂


  48. Brother Charles D,

    I hope you don’t mind my responding to your question that you addressed to our brother in Christ Job.

    In an instance where there is not a single candidate that subscribe to “opposition to murder of the innocent;” what would you do: 1) Not vote at all 2) write in the name of someone that will not or cannot win 3) What?

    Options 1 and 2. No saint is under any mandate from God to endorse a candidate that would allow babies to be murdered in the womb. Scripture does not even say that saints must vote and Christians being involved in politics as much as we are today is very much a new thing, not honestly consistent with the history of the church. Who died for us to vote is not a reason to vote, because the the life laid down that we should be concerned with is that of the One who rose again, Christ. We vote as we see fit, not out of obligation to man or man’s traditions.

    If someone is running that has no shot of winning, but better advances what I feel to be best than I’ll endorse that person. Just as I still support Duncan Hunter while he’s seen 1% in Iowa. If nobody seems to endorse what seems best, I will skip that section on the ballot. Following Christ in truth is not popular either, so I’m not phased by “winning” in popularity. I’ve got to answer for my actions and acting for the sake of popularity won’t go over well with the Lord. I can’t say I’ve ever intentionally not voted at all, but I have at times skipped a section on the ballot, or just as a form of civil protest wrote in “Christ”. Not that the people I do endorse are better than Christ and not that I desire to reduce our Lord to a figure of man’s government, but I figure if somebody reads the write-ins they might get a hint 🙂 .

    I do feel the day is fast approaching when I will see nothing on the ballot I desire to place my personal endorsement on.

    Steffielynn said:

    Right IC, i’ll get back to my parents teachings. People who claimed to be “Christians” and abused my sisters and I, both mentally and physically. My stepfather was awful and mean and hateful, hmmm kind of like you.

    The man who had over 30 wives, many with husbands and was into pedophilia with some wives as young as 14 years old certainly is not the one to follow. I’m not asking you to uphold abuse, I’m letting you know that Christ is the one to follow and what you’ve been given by Joseph Smith Junior is a false christ. I think YOU KNOW I could rattle off deep how every major founders of Mormonism were very disrespectful to women in their big time polygamy after Christ has told us One man and One Woman, again after it was established with Adam and Eve. For a time men held multiple wives and Christ spoke against such and all who follow Him know better than to be involved in polygamy after His coming to earth in flesh. The apostles never did it. Peter was a man of one wife. You know that polygamy is the DOCTRINE professed by your cult’s founders. It was only changed for Utah to be granted statehood. The federal government upheld that marriage was one man and one woman, although some today act like states should decide, history shows it very Constitutional and good for the federal government to uphold one man and one woman. I honestly am sorry you’ve faced abused, but seeing you flee to a cult that engaged in much of it baffles me. It shows those Mormons who came to your door were not up front about those who made the false doctrine you embrace.

    Whatever it is you believe is your opinion and you are entitled to your opinion. That my friend is why we live in this great country.

    I live her because God placed me here and I will proclaim the truth for my time here. You’ve rattled on, about how you feel I’m mean and nasty. But perhaps you should see what the founders of your cult have made the foundation of your beliefs.

    I know you don’t believe it, but I tell you the truth out of love. Just as Matthew 23 records the words of Christ which while not what some would call “nice” show a form of His love. You should read it in full.

    I would discuss this on your site, but of course you wont let me

    As the Lord commands, I don’t allow you in my place.

    Galatians 1:8 (King James Version)

    8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

    Romans 16:17 (King James Version)

    17 Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.

    2 John 1:10-11 (King James Version)

    10 If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:

    11 For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.

    Once upon a time I did allow some Mormons to speak and like yourself, they promoted your doctrine of lies. Just as you come here promoting the heresy, that teaches of a false christ who has a brother named Satan. You dwell in Christian parts of cyberspace to scatter the flock and move saints to put up with lies. By definition you are a false prophet bringing a false gospel.

    2 Corinthians 11:14 (King James Version)

    14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.

    You desire just enough time and space to continually spew your heresy. In hopes that you can convince some saint to accept it as good. You were misled, you feel it’s good to do so to others. Because you’ve embraced a lie like others before you. They did it to justify sins like polygamy. You’ve done it because the false Mormon doctrine sounded good.
    2 Timothy 4:3-4 (King James Version)

    3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;

    4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

    At least you’ll stop by less once Mitt Romney takes a loss. shows how big of a fraud he is even in the political sense.

    Regarding John’s statements about elders, it comes from the Bible.

    Titus 1:5-11 (King James Version)

    5 For this cause left I thee in Crete, that thou shouldest set in order the things that are wanting, and ordain elders in every city, as I had appointed thee:

    6 If any be blameless, the husband of one wife, having faithful children not accused of riot or unruly.

    7 For a bishop must be blameless, as the steward of God; not selfwilled, not soon angry, not given to wine, no striker, not given to filthy lucre;

    8 But a lover of hospitality, a lover of good men, sober, just, holy, temperate;

    9 Holding fast the faithful word as he hath been taught, that he may be able by sound doctrine both to exhort and to convince the gainsayers.

    10 For there are many unruly and vain talkers and deceivers, specially they of the circumcision:

    11 Whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole houses, teaching things which they ought not, for filthy lucre’s sake.

    And when reading the scripture below, you should keep in mind that in scripture the terms “bishop” and “elder” are the same. As used interchangeably above.

    1 Timothy 3:1-13 (King James Version)

    1 This is a true saying, if a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.

    2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;

    3 Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous;

    4 One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity;

    5 (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)

    6 Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil.

    7 Moreover he must have a good report of them which are without; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.

    8 Likewise must the deacons be grave, not doubletongued, not given to much wine, not greedy of filthy lucre;

    9 Holding the mystery of the faith in a pure conscience.

    10 And let these also first be proved; then let them use the office of a deacon, being found blameless.

    11 Even so must their wives be grave, not slanderers, sober, faithful in all things.

    12 Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well.

    13 For they that have used the office of a deacon well purchase to themselves a good degree, and great boldness in the faith which is in Christ Jesus.

    You say you don’t worship Joseph Smith, but you do take his writings as your doctrine. You claim allegiance to the organization he founded. Christ did not start it and you know history fails to reflect what Joseph Smith Junior said happened, not the people, places or events. Smith’s doctrine runs counter to the Bible. So it is by definition false. You know we’ve shown you that many times over. Even his “vision” of seeing the Father and Son is heresy. He’s had 9 different versions of that false “vision”. In scripture (The Bible), prophets with visions never got them confused. The Holy Spirit ensured they always repeated it perfectly without flaw.

  49. johnkaniecki said


    Hello I hope you are well and doing fine.

    I have read your post on your blog Mormonrock.

    The word of God says “Seek you first the kingdom of God and all these things shall be added unto you.” It would be arrogant and naive for anyone to claim that they have mastered the Word of God. It is something that is impossible to do. As such we should approach the scripture and one another in humility. We are all seekers.

    I can accept doctrines and teachings from others if they present their Biblical basis on the matter. For exmaple on this blog there is a very heated argument over oneness. Both sides have presented numerous scriptures and statements outside the scriptures. I certainly believe that God has three personalities. Yet I can accept the other side because they have presented their scriptures. I may consider them wrong and I pray they can see the light buy yet I can ‘live with it’ so to speak.

    Your circumstance Steffielynn is a little bit different. The main reason for this is that you have accepted as authority books outside of the Bible. There is the Book of Mormon and a Pearl of Great Price. I will be honest with you, I have never read these two books but only books on these books. These critical books purpose was to point out errors in the Mormon faith as compared to the Bible.

    I will not deny that Mormons would be more loving than some Lutherans. God is Love. I Corinthians 13 tells us that without Love we are nothing. So to leave a church void of Love is an excellent move, no matter what they claim to be or the name they bear. But Jesus also says, “If you love me you will obey me.”

    I reject the teachings of Islam without hesitation because of the Koran. I reject your religion in the same way. It isn’t that I don’t Love you or care for you it’s just that you have another gospel.

    First of all the Bible has proven itself to be historically accurate. One example of that is the Hittite empire. For a long time skeptics doubted the existance of the group as there was no evidence for it. Then they found one of their libraries. The skeptics were silenced.

    In the Book of Mormon, it claims Jesus has visited the United States. Many cities are named. Yet none of these cities have been located! I have been taught that the largest major at the Mormon University Brigham Young is archeology. Zealous young Mormons wish to validate their book. But they fail.

    Now discovering the Hittite empire doesn’t make the Bible true. But if there never was a Hittite empire than it makes the Bible false. If we claim there is some literature that comes from God it must pass scrutiny. God wouldn’t give us a book with lies inside of it. Scripture tells us God doesn’t lie.

    If you would like I’m sure my two Mormon friends would visit me and give me your extra literature to examine. I always hope to become an evangelist one day. These two Mormons I met were extemely nice. I was happy they were distributing King James Bibles for free!

    I try to find the positive in everything and share what we hold in common. It is much better than tearing one another apart. I must admit that most Mormons I met were friendly people. Yet I haven’t met many so that carries little weight.

    I will wait for your reply.



  50. Mormonism claims a “New and Everlasting Covenant”. That covenant, polygamy! It’s all in what Mormons consider “scripture” D&C 132.

    Just like John Hagee with his made up Dual Covenant, the Mormons have a made up covenant, not often talked about, but still in their “scriptures”, polygamy!

    A total hop-skip over the words of Christ.

    Mark 10:6-9 (King James Version)

    6But from the beginning of the creation God made them male and female.

    7For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and cleave to his wife;

    8And they twain shall be one flesh: so then they are no more twain, but one flesh.

    9What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.

    Mormons making up covenants was Joseph Smith’s means to try and override what is known to all Christians (that polygamy is wrong) and also make his wife Emma embrace the idea, since she was not initially falling for it. So Smith made up a “revelation” and it’s part of their “new covenant”.

    Once you get deep enough with some Mormons you learn the Mormons who are really deep into Mormon doctrine still find polygamy to be A-OK, even preferred!

    The only reason Mormons don’t all do polygamy now, is because of US law. Their state Utah could not become a US state till they banned polygamy. So up came this declaration.

    And even now, the Mormons who are deep into the doctrine feel they will have polygamy again once they reach the “Celestial Kingdom”.

    I have an earlier comment, that if it makes it past moderation and assuming there are no others awaiting moderation will become comment #47 if that comment is approved.

  51. Job said


    Well, say that there was an election and the only three candidates were Mao Zhedong, Joseph Stalin, and Adolph Hitler. “None of the above” would be the only acceptable Christian choice in that scenario. Not voting, voting in the other races while leaving the spot in that race blank, voting for a candidate that “has no chance”, etc. are all perfectly acceptable alternatives. For me, voting for someone that I know is evil, supports evil, and is evil is not.

    You have to understand, the first time I voted (for it was the first election which I was eligible) I cast my ballot for Bill Clinton. Then I switched my allegiances and voted for George W. Bush. Now I made both decisions fully knowing the severe flaws with both men, and both men went on to govern according to those same flaws. That made me, if only in part, sharing responsibility for the lawless decisions that they made. I do not want to share responsibility for lawlessness again. It would have been one thing had I not known what these guys were like. But I knew it and went for them anyway because of the “lesser of two evils” thing. Well, go with the lesser of two evils and guess what … evil still wins.

  52. Charles,

    Ok, first of all if my great grandaddy was a racist (which he was, and he was an EVANGELICAl Christian) would that make me a racist? Of course NOT.

    Most Christians owned slaves back in the day. Does this mean that all Christians today are prejudice and believe in slavery? Of course not! So the whole “He is a racist by association” is just silly.

    Also, I guess I should be more clear regarding who I am speaking about regarding the people who fought for the freedom to vote.

    Americans’ right to vote did not appear magically overnight. It evolved over more than 200 years after hard-fought battles. I am especially grateful to the women who sacrificed and fought for MY right. I think about how hard they worked and the struggles they went through. I can imagine, if they could see us now, how appalled and disappointed they would be to see so many taking for granted, what they worked so hard to get.

    I for one am so very grateful to these women, they are the ones who I do not want to dishonor.

    BUT I’m also grateful to all the soldiers who have fought in the past and who are currently serving. Whether you thought about it or not you were fighting to maintain our freedoms, which include the freedom to vote for whomever we choose.

    Also My husband is currently in Iraq, He has served a total of 3 years there. So I get the military, and Iam grateful to all our soldiers, past and present. I hate that my hubby is gone, but we are sacrificing for what we believe is right.

    Nobody has to agree with me, these are my personal opinions, which i’m allowed to have because of people like you and my husband! 🙂

  53. Charles D. said

    O(kay, you present a whole “nuther” set of complexities that must be reconciled in order to make sense. One the one hand you speak about your forefathers who were slave owners, Christians that were also, and you maintain, or at least, attempt ro make the argument that because they were, it would be foolish to assume that you are. I get that part. What I do not get is the fact that you are honoring your foremothers, presumably, who lived with their slave-owning (and by default) their slaves, for fighting to the death to maintain your present day existence. At best, that seems whacky to me; but then, I’m “thick” and a “bottomline” kind of guy.

    I am not saying or implying that Romney is a racist (nor have I implied that). My point is: if he believe in a brand-new doctrine (existing in 1978 and all before), however wrong-headed it was and is, given the fact that the LDS doctrine is so abhorant, yet to this day he still believe in it; then, what other equally abhorant short-comings might this doctrine include?

    n “intelligent” person would at least address the issue, not try to bury it, or pretend that it didn’t exist. Everyone else is addressing the issue, hence the poor showing in Iowa. I find that hide it under the sand technique common amongst Mormon that I have encountered. Personally, I could not subscribe to a doctrine that I either had to be ashamed of, or, could not stand on it’s on worth. And! Before you say that you’re not ashamed of it, that could be becauuse your tolerence or acceptance meter is programmed differently than my own.

    I have (on this site, this day) heard people say how nice, decent, and friendly their Morman friends are. That is also my experience. However, neither nicesness, friendliness or, decency will merit salvation in the Day of the Lord. Even satan appeared as an angel of light. We are attracted to things that pleases our sensibilities, even sex, food, or whatever floats one’s boat.

    I appreciate your willingness to respond, however, I am mighty afraid that I was not sufficiently clear or you made a mistake in what you thought I was saying.


  54. Charles D. said

    Job I will respond to the question I asked you when I come to grips within my own mind.

    In the meantime, I cannot for the life of me figure why you think you could possibly share in the misdeeds of the candidate you voted for because you knew their sins beforehand. Thats being much too hard on yourself and I cannot think of any possible rationality that will smoothover that fact.

    In a word; if you were the only person that placed the person in office, I might be able to dig that, but, free will, plays a part, sinful nature plays a part, and the other 120Million voters played a part. NOW! when you accept your porportionate share of blame thats divied out’ 1/120,000,000th, hey, it will not register on the radar screen. And before you do the self-persecutorial thing, we know going in that God will have called it right and will have forgiven IF forgiveness is called for at all.

    My answer tomorrow. Be blessed


  55. Job said


    I say that blacks were the seed of Cush and not the cursed seed of Canaan. What say you?

    Charles D:

    I do not recall asking you a question, especially one that you would be compelled to answer. In any event, please recall Acts 8:1a: “And Saul was consenting unto his death” (meaning of Stephen the martyr). Did Paul cast a stone against Stephen? No. So what was his responsibility? Supporting the evil.

  56. Johnkaniecki

    I went to many different churches, I was sincerely seeking truth. I knew it was out there, I just did not know where. When I prayed about the LDS church, I received an answer. I had a broken heart, and I was healed. The experience I went through changed me forever. I cannot deny what happened. And it is not something I can explain. It’s like trying to explain love. It’s something you feel, and you wish you could just give the feeling to people, but you can’t, they will not understand, they HAVE to experience it for themselves to REALLY get it. It is the same with what I have now. I wish more then anything that I could share the peace and love in my heart.

    There ARE some major differences between what you believe and what I believe.

    One, is that I do not believe the bible is inerrant, I do believe it is inspired, but could things have been recorded wrong? I think it is possible. Could things be missing? I think it’s possible.

    I believe that if all the bibles in the world were destroyed we would still have Christ’s gospel, because I believe that God still has prophets.

    I believe that we are ALL God’s children, I believe He loves us all, even those who reject Him. I believe that people who did not hear His gospel will still have a chance.

    No matter what other people may say, I am not here to spread “lies” and deceive. I am sharing my heart and my experiences, take it or leave it.

    Steffielynn 🙂

  57. Charles

    In my comment I was dealing with 2 seperate issues.

    One was LDS and racism, the other is a SEPERATE issue, the right to vote.

    When speaking about the right to vote I was not speaking about my Christian racist family. I was speaking of the “Suffragettes” Susan B. Anthony, Elizabeth Cady Stanton, Lucretia Mott, Harriet Tubman, Millicent Fawcett, And MANY MANY more.

    Does this clear things up?????

  58. Job, I honestly do not know anything about the seed of Cush.

    I don’t know why we have different colors to our skin, MY opinion is that we are all God’s children, black, pink, orange, green, color is not important.

  59. Here is a prime example of why Mormonism teaches of another jesus.

    This is another quote from Mormon so-called “scripture” again. Their so-called “Book of Abraham”. Instead of getting into other aspects of this Mormon story that are heresy, I’m just going to note 2 verses here.

    Abr. 3: 27-28

    27 And the Lord said: Whom shall I send? And one answered like unto the Son of Man: Here am I, send me. And another answered and said: Here am I, send me. And the Lord said: I will send the first.

    28 And the second was angry, and kept not his first estate; and, at that day, many followed after him.

    There is where Mormons believe the Father had to seek out one of his “spirit babies” to play the role of savior. (All this takes place during a “council of gods” which is a polytheism heresy I won’t get into in this comment.) The lie above says that Jesus had to say “pick me” before Satan. In that passage Mormons place Christ and Satan as equals, with Jesus saying “pick me” first and being chosen. Mormons believe Jesus was “chosen” over his “brother” Satan and Satan was an unhappy kid about it. This all goes far against the Bible for many reasons.

    1. Jesus is not Satan’s brother. Satan was nothing but an angel who desired to be God and was cast out. Cast out for trying to be God, not because he was some unhappy sibling of Jesus, Isaiah 14.

    The Bible shows all in Heaven and earth were created by the Lord Jesus Christ, that INCLUDES SATAN.

    Colossians 1:12-17 (King James Version)

    12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:

    13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:

    14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:

    15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

    16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

    17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

    Christians understand Christ is termed “firstborn of every creature” because He was before all else, with the Father always, always One with Him and always God. He is the first and the last, the Alpha and the Omega, Revelation 1:17-18 and Revelation 22:12-14.

    2. Trying to claim Jesus was ever on par with Satan and a simple pick made one greater than the other goes against the fact Jesus always was with the Father and One with Him, both together and God, John 1.

    3. Mormons believe in a jesus who was less than the Father, the Bible shows Jesus to be the co-eternal image of God, 2 Corinthians 4:3-4 and Hebrews 1, John 1.

    4. The Mormon passage shows the Father with 2 sons, which removes the full truth and glory of Jesus being the ONLY BEGOTTEN SON of the Father, 1 John 4:9. Mormons have twisted “only begotten”, to imply Jesus as the only one of many “spirit children” that the Father personally implanted into a human woman (Mary).

    5. This is why Mormon’s can’t accept the doctrine of the Trinity. Because their jesus is not co-eternal and not co-equal with the Father. The Bible shows Jesus is equal with His Father, they are One, Philippians 2:5-7.

    6. By what is given in Mormon so-called scripture, all Satan had to do was say “pick me” first and he would have been redeemer.

    7. Mormons believe in a “chosen jesus”, as in chosen instead of Satan. Rather than a truly co-eternal Jesus, who was always One with the Father and sent, John 8:18. Christians knowing Jesus is One with the Father and sent understand Him as “chosen” because He is God, not the result of some pick that was between Him and Satan.

    This is why we know Mormons are not Christians.

    (I found what is below after writing what is above.)
    The head man in LDS has admitted he follows another jesus. In just a few minutes the video linked below shows that and how wide the chasm is between Mormonism and sound doctrine.

    Who Is Jesus? – Jesus Christ / Joseph Smith

  60. Charles D. said

    Except for the fact that not even a Boy Scout in the LDS Church could not elevate to the rank of Eagle Scout, as recent as 1978. Then you speak about: ” my Christian racist family.” Is not the LDS policy racist? How does that differ from “my Christian racist family?”

    Also, neither “Susan B. Anthony, Elizabeth Cady Stanton, Lucretia Mott, Millicent Fawcett, or even Harriet Tubman, contributed towards my being able to vote. I’m not sure what they did for you, and although they were all contributors in areas that furthered our society, they did not affect my right to speak and be heard, vote, life, liberty or property.

    Wish you would fully address point 1 above.


  61. Charles D. said

    Also, how do you view Comment #59.

  62. Diane said

    Steffielynn, have you heard of Katherine Bushnell? If you haven’t I think you would really like her. She was also a suffragist and fought against the evils of enslaving females for sex in China, India, and here in the United States. She also wrote a book called “God’s Word to Women” that I think you would enjoy also.

  63. That’s my point Charles. People are always trying to call the LDS church racist, because of it’s past, but what everyone seems to conveniently forget is that the CHRISTIANS were racist. They owned slaves. So if you are going to point fingers at a group of people then you need to make sure YOUR group has a clean slate.

    The women named in the comments above were the women who fought hard for women to have the right to vote. They DID contribute to MY right to vote.

    And you ask what I think about comment #59? I think it is a long comment.

    I know my Savior, I know what He did for me. I love Him with all my heart. If other imperfect people feel it is necessary to tear at my beliefs, so be it. They do not matter. They are not the judge, they do not know my heart. I love my Savior. And THAT is all that matters.

    And Diane, thank you, I will look for her book!!! 🙂

  64. Golden said

    For those mormon haters in the forum, I would suggest that you take a look at your own religion first, before you spend so much time researching how you think the mormons are wrong. Then pray to God about it. Ask Him what is right and what is wrong.

    Is it right to pay money to obtain the priesthood? Does anyone who claims to have authority from God have the right to sell that authority? Is it right to be paid to preach? Is it right to baptize babies? Do you think it’s right to condemn to hell people who have not had an opportunity to hear and accept the gospel of Jesus Christ?

    Matthew 7:3 (King James Version):

    “And why beholdest thou the mote that is in they brother’s eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?”

    You claim the Bible to be infallible, and yet you get your understanding of the Bible not from God, but from opinions of scholars. For example, 1 Corinthians 15:29 says:

    “Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?”

    Now biblical scholars rationalize that this was an accusation of a practice that the corinthians were falsely practicing, not true doctrine. But have you prayed to God about it, or are you just taking the “scholars” opinion as fact? In James 1:5 it says:

    “If any man lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.”

    Opinions of scholars are interesting, and sometimes helpful in understanding circumstances surrounding Biblical events. They can add to our understanding, but they are not the source of wisdom, God is.

    Johnkaniecki makes the comment that since Elders are to be married and not be novices, that the Elders of the LDS church are false. Are the Elders false, or your understanding? Elder is not the same office as Bishop as independent conservative claims. In the LDS church, these offices are not the same, in fact, a Bishop must be a High Priest, not and Elder, and must qualify as Timothy suggests.

    “Inependent Converservative” claims the mormon understanding of God to be heresy, and yet his definition of God comes from the Nicene creed of 325AD, not from the scriptures. 325 was more than two centuries after the last of the apostles had died. Do you suppose that mens understanding might have altered some in those two centuries? Take a look at how far we have strayed from the constitution in the last two centuries, and we have the original copy. The scholars of Nicene did not have original copies of letters written by the apostles, just handwritten copies of copies of copies, and heresay. And even the Nicene creed has been modified several times. So let’s look at what the Bible (not scholars) teaches us about God. Here’s just one example:

    Acts 7: 55-56 (King James Version):

    “55 But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,
    56 And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.”

    If, as the Nicene creed supposes, that God is one being, why would Stephen make the comment, under the guidance of the Holy Ghost, that he saw Jesus standing on the right hand of God? I would suggest that to understand the nature of God, one must pray to God, not read a creed.

    Johnkaniecki says that he rejects the teachings of Islam without hesitation because of the Koran. John, your assumption is that God does not speak to any other people on the earth other than the ancient Christians. But in John 10: 16 Jesus says:

    “And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.”

    Now we know that the kingdom of Israel was scattered from the Bible. Jesus made a covenant with Israel (not just the Jews), don’t you suppose that he might have wanted to teach the new covenant of the Gospel of Jesus Christ to them also? And if he did, would not they have kept records of his visit? I believe that if anyone anywhere loves God and prays to him for wisdom, whether they be a descendant of Israel or not, that God will help them find the truth. I believe that Mohammad did exactly that, and was given light and knowledge from an angel. The Koran certainly has light and knowledge to offer, just as the Book of Mormon has. I don’t think that the Koran is perfect, but it certainly offers some light and knowledge. And I would suspect that there is still other, yet undiscovered, scripture. If God had given a revelation to someone in ancient China and that person wrote it down, wouldn’t you want to read it? Don’t you think that it have something to offer?

    I think that those of you who think that the Bible is infallible (or more correctly, that your understanding of the Bible is infallible) need to ask yourselves a few questions:

    1) Does the Bible contain everything that you need to know to be saved?
    2) Will God tell you if there is more that you need to understand?
    3) Do you have the strength and humility to follow Gods instructions for you when he answers your prayers?

    I know that God will answer you if you pray with faith and with an open mind. I testify to you that there is more that you need to know about God and his kingdom, and that He loves you and wants you to know the truth – the truth about Him and his only begotten son, Jesus Christ. But you won’t find the truth arguing about Him on a forum, or listening to opinions of religious scholars, you have to pray to Heavenly Father in the name of Jesus Christ, as Jesus taught in the Bible.

  65. Angie said

    Hey comment numbers 58 and 59, I just have a question and comments. Why bother with a woman who is lost and consider your comment long and lame, mainly #59? She has a point though about so called Christians whom owned slaves. If you want to know what true Christianity is, read the New Testament. Christianity was butchered and changed for so long and by men not called of God, that it has become a religion. To this day, man has twisted scriptures to suit their purpose. Joseph Smith is no different. Too much religion out here is what’s destroying man. However, carry on if you wish, but consider Rev 22:11-13 and the book of God was already thrown on Joseph Smith in Rev 22:18-19 at the judgement seat. #60, I would like to say that I see the allowance of blacks to become LDS members as a political move. However, their own made up bible still condemns them.

  66. Charles D. said


    Maintain your own belliefs and let the Spirit minister to your heart. I am pleased to see that you neither back down, or, take a position because it happen to be popular. Keep it up.


  67. Charles D. said


    The only truth I can see in your comment is: No one knows your heart; no one knows how you feel about Christ and He about you, so no one can tell you, nor are any of us responsible for your “salvation.”

    You still don’t get my point, I can’t force it on you; I will however say that I am personally not aware of any Christians (racist or not) that owned slaves as recently as 1978. Do you?


  68. Job said

    Golden: You call Christians Mormon haters for refusing to accept your beliefs when your entire religion of Mormonism is based on your own rejection of Christianity. I mean you guys go around calling yourselves “restored Christians” and claim that Christians are apostates, part of the great apostasy. Do you want me to go dig up some of the not so nice things that Brigham Young and Joseph Smith said about Christianity, calling it a perversity from Satan himself and things similar? I suppose that Mormons would really rather us not know what your books and teachings and prophets say about us, but we do. Yet you guys claim to want us to tolerate you? That is the very type of dishonesty and hypocrisy that Mormonism is based on. Admit it and move on.

  69. And in comes Golden, asking us to hear his spin and ask God about it. We already asked God and it’s right in the Bible and all Christians know Mormons are WRONG.

    The typical hoax about the Nicene creed of 325AD line is tossed, because Mormons don’t know what really happened there, they don’t know church history and that junk they’ve created regarding themselves can’t be confirmed by their own historical researchers. They toss out suppositions, while it’s obvious their own history is totally fabricated. Except once we get to Joseph Smith Jr. and his starting the cult, polygamy, lies, murder and so on.

    Poke around here a while Golden. You’ll find the Trinity was accepted by THE CHURCH way before 325AD and the establishment of it did not begin then. Around 325AD there were efforts to deny the Trinity, not create the concept.

    And then Golden goes into trying to compare scripture to adherence to the US Constitution 🙄 . Spoken like a Mormon with no concept of the work of the Holy Spirit.

    Well Mormon, last time I had “fire in my belly” it was a case of indigestion. I think you folks need more antacid.

    Jesus being with the Father does not deny the Trinity, it affirms it! There are not “gods”, but One GOD as is written.

    Genesis 1:26 (King James Version)

    26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

    But Mormons have gone on material that is devoid of God and created their own false gods. Acting as if “gods” created, when there is One God who is Father Son and Holy Spirit. Jesus on the right of the Father, you better believe it. The Holy Spirit indwelling believers, while the Father and the Son are in Heaven and Jesus also in the midst of believers, yup. Father and Son abiding with those who love him, yup, John 14:23. It’s called a unity in spirit of One God, that is more powerful than Mormons can conceptualize, because “Golden” DOES NOT HAVE THE HOLY SPIRIT. Looking a bit tarnished. Only the Lord can remove the delusion from a Mormon’s heart as He wills, if any should be saved.

    The real bottom line that Golden CAN’T DENY in all his spin and words, is that his jesus is not my Jesus. What he calls a jesus is NOT the Christian Jesus. Golden has denied the triune nature of God.

    Jesus made it clear God is triune.

    Matthew 28:19 (King James Version)

    19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

    Jesus best explained why Joseph Smith Junior and those who go to the grave with his lies on their hearts are not saved.

    John 10:26-30 (King James Version)

    26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

    27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

    28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

    29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand.

    30 I and my Father are one.

    Jesus and the Father ARE ONE! And those refuse to believe are NOT His sheep.

    The Bible vs. The Book of Mormon

  70. Angie – Sometimes its about more than the one being addressed.

  71. johnkaniecki said


    Hi hello I hope you are well. I am so glad that you joined this forum to discuss things. As a human being you are worthy of Love and respect on that condition alone.

    As regarding the Elders that is something I will look into. Yet when I was talking to the two Mormon missionaries what the definition in the English language was they recognized it was an regards to an older person.

    I Peter 5:5 tells the younger to submit to the elder. I Timothy 5:1 clearly states a difference between the older or elder and the younger. If one wants to adhere to the Bible than the term elder wouldn’t be correct for a younger person. I have always been taught and thought that an elder, overseer, bishop and shepard were synonyms. It seems elder could be a different term right now but definitely not a younger person.

    That brings us back to works of literature beyond the Bible. In my twenty years of study I find no conflict between the New and Old testaments. In this case we are discussing the New Testament, the Koran and the Book of Morman. I hope we can discuss these matters in a friendly and open manner. I certainly don’t hate anybody and if I gave you the impression that I did please forgive me and accept my apology.

    First of all my problem with the Koran is that it puts Jesus subordinate to Mohamad. It is clear from my understanding of the Bible that Jesus is God. Therefore to have another person, who ever that is, have more importance is a major issue. I speak about the Muslims first because I have had more experience dealing with them. I recall one friend Tariq asking me, “If God has a son then why not an uncle, an aunt or a sister?” Though the statement sounds like a mockery he asked it in a sincere manner.

    You see my friend was trying to follow the teachings of the Koran and I was trying to follow the teachings of the Bible. Yet there is a definite conclift. Either Jesus is God or not? And this isn’t a minor point. There are absolutes and truths and there are opinions and lies.

    Now the Book of Mormon is something written after the Koran. Mormons claim that this book was inspired by God in the fashion the Bible was.(Correct me if I am wrong on this point.) Therefore as such it must meet with the strictest of standards. In my personal beliefs that means it must be harmonious with the Old and New Testaments.

    I am not an expert of the Book of Mormon or on the Mormon faith at all. Yet just the concept that the Mormon faith has a figure equivalent of the Pope is something for me to take a step back and say “What’s going on here?” For one person to dictate or interpret the faith is very dangerous. (Again correct me if I am wrong)

    Case in point we have been discussing how the Mormon church used to exclude people of African ancestry is proof of something wrong. I hold the same standard by the way to the Catholic Church. In the RC’s case the “Vicar of Christ” approved of things like the “Inquisiton and the Crusades”. The “Vicar of Christ” would never condone the devil’s work. I also reject Luther for what was done to the Ana Baptists as I reject the Pilgrims for what they did the idingenous Americans. Something more serious than the discrimanation is the Mormons dealing with the Utes.

    Now there is much to examine in any faith. My faith is very simple. The Bible is the Word of God and is infallable. God is Love and the most important things to do is to Love God and Love others. I have no problem utterly rejecting the vast majority of people who claim to feel this way. Either you got it right or you got it wrong.

    Yet we each must work out our salvation with “fear and trembling”. In areas of controversy like speaking in tongues for example, I know that both sides can produce scriptures to back up thier point. Yes I have my ideas about what the Word of God intends to teach. But I do not insist on my own way rather patiently pray for the person hoping that they come to the truth. I do this knowing to that I am not perfect and I too could be mistaken.

    Yet when you talk about additional writings they hold no weight whatsoever. They don’t meet the scrutinization of a perfect Author.
    They may have something good to say worthwhile but then so does Shakespeare.

    Let me be fair and honest I have never read the Book of Mormon cover to cover. Nor have I read the Pearl of Great Price. Nor have I read the Koran. Nor have I read Budha nor Confuscious. With me when I read about Jesus God opened my eyes and turned my heart of stone to a heart of flesh. It is my witness and testimony that Jesus is Lord. I have put his teachings into practice and I have reaped an abundance.

    If you would like I could read the Book of Mormon and get out my red pen and mark every scripture that conflicts with the Bible. But I don’t think that would be profitable nor my style. I’m sure the Independant Conservative or Job could do a much better job on that than I could.

    As regards for God’s extra teaching read Revelation 11. There the two witnesses will testify.

    Jesus is the judge. What does a judge do in court? He calls witnesses to testify on the matter. In God’s case he need only call two. This is what I refer to as the footnote in the Bible. Though the giving of scripture has stopped, in Revelation 11 God has promised more to come. These two will expound on the matters that need to be dealt with.



  72. John, Golden explained why they run with the lie about elders when he said:

    In the LDS church, these offices are not the same,…

    We could badminton the point forever, but John you and I know scripture (The Bible) uses the terms Bishop, elder, overseer and/or pastor depending on translation to detail the same position.

    And notice how Golden continued:

    …a Bishop must be a High Priest, not and Elder

    Now John, you know the glowing error Mormons make right there. Because we know, there is no such thing as a person walking this planet with the post “high priest”. You know who our High Priest is.

    Hebrews 7 details how deeming men as “high priest” was weak and insufficient. The Son is the only High Priest. All others claiming the title today are fraudulent.

    Hebrews 7:28 (King James Version)

    28 For the law maketh men high priests which have infirmity; but the word of the oath, which was since the law, maketh the Son, who is consecrated for evermore.

    Notice how scripture speaks of “the law” and men being deemed “high priest” in the past. While we know Mormonism is a cult of law and works. The parallels are very obvious.

    The bottom line is as you’ve said earlier John. Mormons don’t hold to the Bible as the final and sole authority. They see scripture (the Bible) as insufficient and use what they feel must “supplement” the Bible, while totally turning from the truth that is in the Bible.

  73. Angie said

    If Joseph Smith was alive today, I believe he would make a great fiction author, sell millions of books and be a billionaire like Pat Roberson. You gotta give it to Brigham Young and Joseph Smith. Satan has crept into the churches and perverted the true gospel. That same anti-christ spirit influenced them to be more of the children of hell, dragging others with them.

  74. Charles D. said

    What causes wonderment to me is the fact that the mostbase of followers are not uneducated people. On eht eone hand this prove theories about “condition” “response” “stimuli” and “programming” and “behavior modification producing a desired result.”

    Also, what the Bible speaks about satan appearing as an angel of light. Yhings that are either bad or unpleasing, we shy away from those things. Things that appear to be right or appeal to our sensibilities, those things are easier to digest. Is it any wonder then, that although outlawed now (wink), what sense do you think polygamy appeals to? And why do you think the same was/is such a central part of and tied to conditions of going to heaven?

    I simplt cannot feel sorry for those who knows better but continue to subscribe to such a doctrine and seduce others to do the same. One step further, I cannot think of a single ligitimate reason that a Mormon could possibly believe Jeff George is any different than they.


  75. What I find interesting is that IC describes himself as “Christian”, and he believes every word in the bible, oh except the part about DO NOT JUDGE.

    And how are Golden’s beliefs a “spin”? The only spinner is YOU Mr. Independent Conservative, picking apart comments and then spinning them into YOUR version of what was said.

    You amaze me, and not in a good way.

  76. Steffielynn said:

    What I find interesting is that IC describes himself as “Christian”, and he believes every word in the bible, oh except the part about DO NOT JUDGE.

    Oh, but I do fully embrace the parts about judging. Judging and not judging alike. Because you see, you call yourself a Christian. You claim to come to us in the name of the Lord. This means I very much SHOULD JUDGE YOU IN REGARD TO WHETHER YOU ARE APPROPRIATE TO ASSOCIATE WITH.

    1 Corinthians 5:9-13 (King James Version)

    9 I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators:

    10 Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world.

    11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolator, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.

    12 For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within?

    13 But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.

    You are an idolator following a false christ, believing the lies of Joseph Smith Junior as if that viper was a prophet. You embrace a doctrine created to satisfy the lusts of fornicators. Men who desired multiple women. You play into their covetousness and extortion by believing them when they tell you to give them 10%. I’ve already shown you how they are railers against anyone upholding sound doctrine.

    See the phrase on the top of this blog’s title. Here, we Christians contend for the faith and you are not of the faith. I’ve already explained to you in this other comment why I address you as you deserve.

    You, Golden and others of your flock are deluded. The Bible never instructs someone to wait for “fire in the belly” for guidance.

    You have fallen for the words of deceitful men. Men who made up covenants, that do not exists. Men who claim they are prophets, but are false. Men who lead you as if they are apostles when they are not.
    2 Corinthians 11:13-15 (King James Version)

    13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.

    14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.

    15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

    Your cult of indigestion, that asks for people to seek a sign in their belly is as perverse as Christ said of the Pharisee.

    Luke 11:29 (King James Version)

    29 And when the people were gathered thick together, he began to say, This is an evil generation: they seek a sign; and there shall no sign be given it, but the sign of Jonas the prophet.

    That “fire” Joseph Smith Junior had in his bosom is spoken of in TRUE SCRIPTURE.

    Proverbs 6:26-29 (King James Version)

    26 For by means of a whorish woman a man is brought to a piece of bread: and the adultress will hunt for the precious life.

    27 Can a man take fire in his bosom, and his clothes not be burned?

    28 Can one go upon hot coals, and his feet not be burned?

    29 So he that goeth in to his neighbour’s wife; whosoever toucheth her shall not be innocent.

    Calling your buildings “temple” when there is no longer any man made temple.

    My temple does not walk with yours. You desire that I accept you as Christian, that’s what you really want. You’d say I “love” you then. Because you can’t accept LOVE that tells you the truth in no uncertain terms. You take love as whatever feels good and this is how you’ve been deluded. Regardless of how someone addresses you, you hold to the cult, it is your love. You can have your temple made with hands, my temple which is the true temple of God will never walk with it.

    2 Corinthians 6:14-18 (King James Version)

    14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?

    15 And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel?

    16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

    17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you.

    18 And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.

    Once you toss those lies of Joseph Smith Junior, there might be hope for your soul.

    You were given the truth and will be held accountable.

  77. Wow, yes! Now that you have talked to me the way I DESERVE to be talked to I would REALLY like to join YOUR church! You have inspired me with your hate and judgemental attitude! When can I join?!?

  78. You can’t join the assembly I worship with. You are not a believer and reject the truth. The church are the believers, which you are not, because you decided to embrace a false Christ. Then you came here hoping to be accepted as a “Christian”. Hoping we’d accept you as a Christian and say your false Christ is just like our real Lord and Savior who has no brother named Satan. And you dislike that you are bluntly rejected for your efforts at deception. You earned it. If you embrace the Lord Jesus Christ of the Bible and throw down the teachings of Joseph Smith Junior, the real Jesus will have you as part of His Church. You don’t need to worry about me, but your own soul.

    You think I’m judgmental, just wait till you get to judgment and you tell the real Jesus, “but, but I didn’t think the Bible had it all right and thought I needed these other books by Joseph Smith Junior…”

    Just remember why you can’t hear the truth, that Jesus and the Father are the One True God.

    John 10:26-30 (King James Version)

    26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

    27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

    28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

    29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand.

    30 I and my Father are one.

    You are deceived and hoping Christians will call your deception truth. I refuse today as I did the first time you came here. I’m sure the Pharisee didn’t like being called vipers, but those who walked with the Pharisee will face a Pharisee’s judgment. Those who walk with Joseph Smith Junior will share his fate. You have embraced his fake lord of lust.

    7. Character of Joseph Smith – Jesus Christ / Joseph Smith

  79. Diane said


    I just wanted to say to you that the way you have been treated here is wrong. When people love Christ their motives and words are constrained by His commands and by the Holy Spirit. The problem that I see is that Jesus is talked about but not obeyed. His commands to bless, pray, not return insults, not revile, love your enemies, are not heard nor honored. You deserve to be treated the way we ourselves would like to be treated.

    I hope one day to discuss our beliefs our Lord and Saviour.


  80. So Diane, do you consider Steffielynn a Christian?

    You mention:

    I hope one day to discuss our beliefs our Lord and Saviour.

    You feel she’s not following another jesus?

    This is just as God had Paul to fear.

    2 Corinthians 11:3-4 (King James Version)

    3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

    4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.

    Bearing with someone who clearly presents another jesus.

    2 John 1:10-11 (King James Version)

    10 If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:

    11 For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.

    Receive them into your house and grant them God speed if you wish, I will not. I’ll reject them online just as I do when they arrive at my door.

  81. Diane said

    IC, there is only ONE Mediator between God and man, ONE Saviour of the world and His Name is Jesus. He is Saviour whether or not a person recognizes that.

    Not welcoming someone into your home is your personal choice. Jesus ate with prostitutes, pharisees and tax collectors. You certainly have NO dominion over who others share the truths of Christ with.

  82. Charles D. said

    Can someone help me? I cannot find: “His commands to bless, pray, not return insults, not revile, love your enemies,” as commands. I know the greatest command to love God, then, my neighbor as my self. I’m thinking one might have trouble defining “neighbor” under the circumstance.

    Also, I have no idea who the multiple “us,” “we,” and “our” are; the one thing I am sure of is that they do not include me.


  83. Diane, you bear an apostate beautifully. And that’s not a complement.

    Jesus ate with sinners, not full out apostates who heard of Him and rejected the truth!

    Matthew 9:11 (King James Version)

    11 And when the Pharisees saw it, they said unto his disciples, Why eateth your Master with publicans and sinners?

    Notice who He ate with versus who he was not eating with there.

    When Jesus went to eat in the house of a Pharisee, it was to leave them speechless and defy their customs, which you can read about in Luke 14.

    Sharing the truth is one thing. Bearing with apostasy is another.

    I’ll ask you again, do you consider Steffielynn a Christian? Is she following another jesus?

  84. Charles D. said

    Don’t forget, Jesus also ate with Judas, however, He and only He knows why (to fulfill the Scriptures). That meal did not preclude Judas from his title as the son of predition.

    Jesus also said that in the last days, there would be false teachers, how they were to be treated, avoided, and the Epistles as well as the Apostles warned multiple times throughout the NT.

    The comment wasn’t directed to me, however, the necessity of accuracy in the life of and actions by Christ should not be left to a misunderstanding of scripture.


  85. Diane said

    IC, as far as your questions about whether I feel she is following another Jesus and if she’s a Christian, we haven’t had any discussion about what we believe, so I have made no such determination. I am not going to assume anything. God knows and commands me to love my neighbor as myself.

    Did Steffielynn in an earlier post clearly state exactly what she personally believes about Jesus?

  86. Diane said


    Matt 5:43-45
    “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you, that you may be sons of your Father in Heaven; for He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust.”

    Those are imperatives that apply to those born of God.

    The “we” is anyone who calls upon the Name of the Christ.

  87. Diane,

    If I were an apostate, I’d love my neighbor to tell me in no uncertain terms and reject me continually because of it. But I agree with Charles D. when he mentioned that the use of the term “neighbor” is a bit of a stretch in this case. You’re dealing with an enemy in your camp and don’t realize it. I show her love by telling her the truth. And I do it just as I hope my neighbor does for me if I were an apostate.

    Keep in mind Diane, I’ve had a whole lot more discussions with Steffielynn than you have. I don’t know if you’ve read any of her material on her own blog, but I have. Also she’s tried many times to comment on my blog, to try and speak against statements I’ve made about her cult. (Keep in mind, when I present something, regardless of whether you like what I say, you know I present the factual sources for my statements.) So I make my statements based on probably more data than you’ve been aware of. I don’t recall you being around when discussions with Steffielynn started here back when she and other Mormons first came around. This is part of a VERY LONG string of discussions.

    She believes the Mormon doctrine, hook, line and sinker. Mormons are TRAINED to present things to you in a manner that confuses you. Although she did not get the full “mission” training, she’s part of the camp. When you speak to Steffielynn, you are speaking to someone who was taught the basics of the Christian faith in her youth. She was taught all that is wrong about Mormonism by her parents. While she takes issue with her parents, I’m sure they taught her 1 + 1 = 2 and she did not reject that training, but rejects the Jesus Christ of Christian doctrine, who is One with the Father and Holy Spirit, the One True God.

  88. WE are to reject those that come with another gospel, 2 John 1:10-11.

    To bless and show love at times comes in the form of disassociation and firm admonishment. That is why we are instructed to do it in some cases. Not out of hate, but love.

    You don’t show a crack head love by giving them the $5 they request!

    I don’t think Steffielynn has despitefully used or tried to persecute anyone here, but we pray she comes to know the truth if the Lord wills.

  89. I said:

    I don’t think Steffielynn has despitefully used or tried to persecute anyone here, but we pray she comes to know the truth if the Lord wills.

    Well, when you think about the fact she’s trying to get saints to claim apostasy as Christianity, the spiritual damage that does is rather malicious. So yes, there is some despitefull using going on and Mormon lies are spiritual persecution.

    We pray she comes to know the truth, but today she’s an apostate heretic and the church has been given the instruction to avoid her, Romans 16:17. I love the Lord MORE than Steffielynn, so I’ll do as He commands. I feel doing as He commands is love.

    9. The Occult – Jesus Christ / Joseph Smith

  90. Diane said

    IC, I didn’t ask what we think she believes but I asked if Steffielynn clearly state what she personally believes about Christ? You’re right I haven’t heard the discussions you’ve had with her, and as of yet, I haven’t personally heard her beliefs, and it would be wrong for me to assume anything one way or another. I will continue treating her the way Christ commands me to treat her.

  91. Diane asked,

    IC, I didn’t ask what we think she believes but I asked if Steffielynn clearly state what she personally believes about Christ?

    Yes. Many times. And given my additional knowledge on the matter, I know with certainty that 2 John 1:10-11 is appropriate regarding her.

    Do you feel Mormonism is a cult or Christianity?

  92. Diane – I should add, Steffielynn has also given her thoughts on who she feels the Father is. In detail. She has made it clear she feels the Father is of flesh and bone as Mormon doctrine teaches. She’ll tell you it’s “glorified” flesh and bone, but she reiterates all the lies of the cult of Joseph Smith Junior as she has been taught by false teachers. Now she proclaims the heresy from her own mouth/fingers.

    Let’s just say, this is why our brother Job has also had stern words for her at times.

    Like I said, this is the current portion of a very lengthy exchange.

    But if you can, please let me know if you feel Mormonism is a cult or Christianity?

  93. Charles D. said

    Diane; I’ve known in detail what Matt 5:43-45 both says and means since I was a small child, maybe 4, certainly before 5. What you missed is, they are not commands, but rules for rightful living. In other words, do these things and all will be well with you. There is a difference. A command is what Christians are devinely directed to do; e.g., Love the Lord thy God with all of your heart, soul, and mind; and love your neighbor as yourself. The question was even asked:
    Lord, Lord, who is my neighbor. Now before you try to answer that; is a person that denies Christ for what and who He is your neighbor? Irrespective of your answer, such a person is certainly not my neighbor for a multipicity of reasons, some of which is fairly deep for you.

    Next, you defined (in your humble opinion) who the “we” is, but you remained silemt on the “us” and “our.” Since you are not the arbitor of either, you should have spoken only for yourself. And while I fully realize that there are commonalities shared by Christian believers alike, there are also instances when one should just say, “he is of age, ask him, he can speak for himself.”


  94. Diane,
    I don’t know what my Father in Heaven may or may not have. But I will certainly not limit Him. He created us in His image. I personally do not think He is just floating around Heaven condemning people to “burn in Hell”.

    This is what I do know wbout Him. He is the Father of ALL, we are ALL His children. Jesus Christ, is His Son. He sent His Son to die so that we may live. I do not believe in the trinity. I do not believe they are the same person. I believe they are one in purpose. I believe that Jesus sits on the right hand of our Father.

    Jesus Christ IS my Savior, He did not come here to teach us how to live, and then suffer and die for a select few. He died for every single one of us. I love Him with all my heart and soul.

    I admit I do not know everything. I will not pretend that I do. But one thing I refuse to do is limit Him. He is so much greater then I can imagine. I look forward to the day He wraps His loving arms around me. I know I am not worthy, yet He loves me anyways!

    People challenge me, and now they challenge you. I appreciate your kindness because, as you can see, I am treated like dirt by others.

    But they don’t matter, not to me. My heart is filled with happiness, peace and love. Those feelings are from God. People can challenge me all day long, but they cannot change what I have in my heart. I only feel sorry for them, because they just don’t get it. 😦 They can call me names and judge me, but in the end there is one Judge.

    Diane, we may or may not agree, but these are my beliefs, straight from my heart. I know my comment will be twisted by others, and you may or may not consider me a Christian, but I do appreciate the fact that you treat me with respect, even when others ridicule and question you. You are a sincere and strong women.

  95. Steffielynn is now playing her usual role of acting naive and claiming she’s being picked on “treated like dirt by others”.

    But let’s see what the real deal is.

    Steffielynn saying she feels Jesus and Satan are brothers, also confirming she feels Jesus and Satan were birthed from the Father as “spirit children” and proving she sees Jesus as less than the Only Begotten Son co-eternal and co-equal with Father and Holy Spirit.:

    We DO believe Jesus and lucifer are brothers, They are both spirit children of our Heavenly (not alien ) Father. We do not believe in the trinity, BUT we do believe what it says in the bible, That God and Jesus are one, they are one in PURPOSE.

    Now see what I’ve posted above.

    She has affirmed she feels the Father is of flesh and bone. But rather than me dig up the exact quote, she can clear it up for us right now.

    Straight from Mormon “so-called” scripture:
    D&C 130: 22

    22 The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man’s; the Son also; but the Holy Ghost has not a body of flesh and bones, but is a personage of Spirit. Were it not so, the Holy Ghost could not dwell in us.

    Now I say that the above is a big fat lie. God is Spirit, the Father is not of flesh and bone, John 4:23-24.

    Now Steffielynn can make is easy. She can answer does she feel D&C 130:22 is 100% truth, yes or no? I already know how she’s answered in the past and brother Job knows too, because it was a major point of contention that she would not agree with him on the matter.

    Steffielynn having knowledge of Christian doctrine from her past knows how to formulate her statements to sound convincing. But if you put the Mormon text right in front of her and ask her to confirm or deny, you might get slightly more honest answers. That is the ONLY way I have EVER had a Mormon not lie to me about their beliefs.

  96. How can I lie about my beliefs?

    And do you really think I care Mr.IC if you think I am Christian or not? You do not think I am. Fine. Guess what, I don’t think YOU are!!! My definition of a Christian is a Christ-like person. One who follows Christ’s teachings, BUT does not put himself on Christ’s level by acting as judge. A Christian is loving, kind, honest and humble, I see NONE of these characteristics in YOU.

    You are twisting everything I say. You try to scare people with your opinions. Guess what, people are smart, and they see through you. And if they don’t then YOU are the deceiver NOT me!

    Diane and John are different, they may not agree BUT they treat me with love, kindness and respect. THEY are true Christians!

  97. Notice in all her words, Steffielynn avoids answering direct questions.

    Notice she’s absent from this thread.

    The one who follows a false christ trying to claim she knows who follows the Lord.

    Unlike some others who have not been around and around with the pack of Mormons that flew in here some time ago, I’ve had more than enough exchanges to know the truth. And that’s why this one still keeps playing like the persecuted duck. While ensuring she answers nothing!

    Just to try and hope she keeps enough attention to pour on the snake oil. Just start taking Mormons in. Just vote for Mitt Romney and so on… They all showed up once a certain Mormon was talked about here in regards to running for President.

    Politically motivated and spiritually deceived.

    Joseph Smith – Head In His Hat

    And he wanted to be US President too you know. He made a run for it and lost! Romney is like the later fulfillment of the Mormon dream initiated by Joseph Smith Junior.

  98. Charles said


    I personally don’t know if Diane and John is buying into what you’re selling or not, I don’t believe John is, however nice he may be. Thing is…your post at #94 is so deceptive, it borders on lunacy.

    First of all, Christ did not come so we may live. Christ came as the propitiator for our sins that we may have eternal life with God. Whether Christian we are or sinner, Christ died for sin past, present and future. Believe thou this?

    If Christ came here to teach us how to live, then, just where in the Bible does He say it is okay to have multiple wives? My Bibles says: The twain shall become one. You can sugar-coat it anyway you like, but, at the end of the day, you are a believer or you’re not. You, Diane, John, and myself included (lest you think I’m harping on you personally), cannot obey 9/10 of the Law. You, me, we simply cannot offend even a fraction of the Law and claim we are anything but a SINNER! Period.

    What I disapprove of most about your comment is the psychological ploy you use by saying to Diane: “People challenge me, and now they challenge you” that part is called associative magnetism used to imply we are in the same boat here; it is “us” against the world. That’s the bait. Next you say: “I appreciate your kindness because, [as you can see,] I am treated like dirt by others. That part is the hook. Compliment followed immediately by pity, poor me syndrome, I’ve paid you a compliment, so you owe me validation and acceptance. I don’t know if Diane fell for it, but, you are truly wily for someone whose “they challenge me.”
    What I don’t know is if your deception is a product of you having been programmed over a prolonged period, or, you are making a dishonest attempt here and intentionally scouring. Make no mistake about it, you are programmed. Furthermore what you previously said on the link IC referenced is a complete different thing than what you have said here. Do you deny that fact? I have 2 questions herein, I will wait on your comment/response.


  99. johnkaniecki said


    Hi hello how are you.

    I categorically reject the Book of Mormon and the Pearl of Great Price like I would reject the Koran. Furthermore anything not built on the Rock is going to collapse. I would only want to read those books to help those who have been led astray into the Christian household.

    With my limited knowledge of what they profess and their history I can say this. Their talk doesn’t match the talk of the Bible and their walk doesn’t match the walk of the Bible. I would critcize the Catholic Church with the exact same language.

    But God commands us to Love one another even our enemies. Yet the Word of God teaches we are all not God’s children. The vast majority of the people are the children of the devil. Yes Jesus’ sacrifice paid for the sins of the world but not everyone has made a covenant relationship with Him.

    The best way to approach people is through gentleness and humility in a Spirit of Love.


    John Kaniecki

  100. Charles said

    Hey John:

    I sometimes agree with “The best way to approach people is through gentleness and humility in a Spirit of Love.” HOWEVER, the caveat is; you cannot approach everyone the same way and I would not presume to tell you or another Christian “the best” approach because what is best for you may not be best for another. Secondarily, it is “fear” that is not a spirit of God, but of LOVE AND POWER!

    I have said on Occasion, and mean it now, we are all soldiers in the army of the Lord. We are at war. That’s why we have to put on the whole armor of God. Not just the offensive, but, the defensive as well. All of the Apostles were not alike and neither are all Christians alike.

    You take the love, humility, and humble approach. Job takes another, IC takes another, and Fran takes another, Eden takes still another. Our jobs are not all the same, because our strengths and weaknesses are not the same.

    In short, John stay out of my lane! 🙂



  101. Im not selling anything Charles, I am defining what I believe a Christian to be.

    When we die, I do not believe God will be sitting there, casting people to hell because they believed He DID have a body, if infact He does NOT.

    I also do not believe that He will be casting people to Hell if people believed He did NOT have a body, and it turns out He DID. I do not think any of this matters.

    I believe God will judge us according to our hearts, and if we were kind and loving to our brothers and sisters. I believe that God is a LOVING Father. I believe He desires that all His children be with Him. I believe He is fair and just, as loving Father should be.

    If you believe differently then you are all 100% correct. We believe in a different God.

    I believe Christ is His Son, that He DID infact live and die for us so that we may live. And By live I am speaking of life eternal. If you don’t believe these things, then again you are 100% correct, we believe in a different Jesus.

    I do not believe in Christ because I am afraid of Hell. I believe in Christ because I love Him.

    How exactly are my personal beliefs deceitful? You can believe as you wish. As can I.

    You ask me questions, and when I answer ya’ll twist them, or you call me a liar. I am not here to convince anyone, because I can’t. I don’t have any political pull, and I don’t have leaders who send me to random blogs. I am here because I enjoy discussions of faith. And I want to defend my faith, when people try to twist it and put there own “spin” on it. That is all. I am not a liar, or any of the other hateful names I have been called.

    I think it is crazy that you all can attack me and my character and then say I am “playing like the persecuted duck”.

    I’m amazed that there are really people like you in this world.

  102. I thought the question from Charles was:

    First of all, Christ did not come so we may live. Christ came as the propitiator for our sins that we may have eternal life with God. Whether Christian we are or sinner, Christ died for sin past, present and future. Believe thou this?

    Hopefully it’s becoming more obvious why I address some Mormons the way I do.

  103. Charles said


    WoW! You amaze me! It is not that I haven’t met people like you before, I have previously stated that I have spent time in Utah (Utah is not the only place that I have encountered Mormons however). I told you that one of my daughters’ best friends is totally Mormon and I both, love and adore Sam like a father. Her parents think highly of me, trust me with their kids, and quite unbeknownst to me, invested in a family business, so this bit about my hating you, challenge you, because you are a Mormon – GIVE IT A REST!

    I call you a liar because you are a liar! Period! Just this day, you denied having said something until IC posted your actual words. The very first day you came back to this site you denied the basis for your leaving. The fact that IC said you absolutely refuses to answer a direct question, is not because you are Mormon, it is because you lie like a K-Mart rug. Excuse me if we get tired of the very same thing from different followers of the Mormon doctrines. The best way to stop people from calling you a liar is very easy..STOP LYING!

    Please know this:

    “I believe He is fair and just, as loving Father should be.”

    You ABSOLUTELY have no idea how loving He is, especially, if you are measuring Him against what you know of an earthly father; because if you are, you haven’t a clue.

    “I believe God will judge us according to our hearts, and if we were kind and loving to our brothers and sisters.”

    Those are works! Nice, but they are works and works will not get you into heaven; faith will. Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ and Him crucified will. Faith in Christ produces good works.

    “I believe Christ is His Son, that He DID infact live and die for us so that we may live.”

    Hey! I have already addressed this one in my last comments. Believe it if you will or don’t. Absolutely, no one can influence what you believe or what you plain don’t. Salvation is a individual thing.

    “How exactly are my personal beliefs deceitful?”

    Like this: [“People challenge me, and now they challenge you”]

    “I do not believe in Christ because I am afraid of Hell. I believe in Christ because I love Him.”

    And you love Him because……….?????????

    “I’m amazed that there are really people like you in this world.”

    Don’t know exactly how to take this one; but I’ve concluded that you’ve led an awfully sheltered life or you’re trying to be coy and missed your mark. Either way, now you know and there is no excuse for future amazement. Agreed?

  104. Eden Hadassah said

    Off the subject for a moment…
    If that’s a picture of you next to your name, you look exactly like a girl I went to high school with, and we called her Steffie too.
    Where did you go to high school? If that is too personal, I understand.

  105. Eden I went to High school in California 🙂

  106. I was addressing IC in the comments to you as well, but now your true colors are shining through.

    I believe God has a body yes, I do not believe that He is only spirit.

    MY question is why are you asking me questions I have already answered and then accussing me of not answering the question?

  107. Eden Hadassah said

    I guess it’s true that we all have a “twin” somewhere!
    My mistake. Have great day.

  108. […] I have been having the most interesting (which is the nicest word I can come up with) conversation on another blog.…  […]

  109. johnkaniecki said


    Aye aye sir!

    I to can get blunt or to the point if I want to. I just reserve that behaviour to a future date. Sometimes the good old rebuke is good for the onlookers. I think Proverbs says something like, “Rebuke a fool and a wise man will learn.”

    No I haven’t the wisdom to criticize methods of reaching out or of defending the faith. I just know what I am cofortable with. It ain’t working so great for me to be honest with you. I pray that somehow I am sowing seeds.



  110. Eden,
    We, look alike and have the same name! Weird! I wish I could meet this twin 🙂

  111. Eden Hadassah said

    It is really weird…
    She was one of the sweetest people I knew. I loved her. She had the best smile…like yours.
    I went to high school in New Jersey, but I was born in California and lived there till I was nine.

  112. That is a really nice compliment, thank you! I’m glad you have good memories of her! Steffie’s need to represent! 🙂

  113. Charles D. said


    If you’re referring to me in #106 above, with minimal effort we can avoid the confusion with a name and a colon.

    In the event you were speaking to me, the comments below things you had previously stated are my comments to you. BTW My color is fairly easily shown (biological visibility), however, they are never true or false. Regarding the subject matter; it is what it is!


  114. Sorry I will address you separately from now on!

  115. Job said


    I replied on the Mormons rock link.

  116. I believe God has a body yes, I do not believe that He is only spirit.

    Because your false god is much like a mortal man. That’s why your false god has flesh and bone as a mortal man and children with names like Jesus and Lucifer.

    It’s worse than calling an orange a lemon, the cult reduces God and His Son to the form of a human family unit with some contrived “mother” 🙄 . Leaving the Father to have to engage in a made up case of “celestial” intercourse because His Son is not co-eternal. Yes Mormons do worship a DIFFERENT false god. They’ve robbed Christianity of names to fit in with people who don’t know the whole truth of the cult and fool the naive with a false jesus.

    This is why they are left with things like their efforts to be saved by works, false high priests, false temples and so on.

    Cartoon banned by the Mormon church

  117. IC
    Actually it does not reduce him at all, it does just the opposite.

    Why would He create us in His image, and give us a body if He did not have one? He is much greater then us, He has a perfect body, one that will never get old, and die like ours. How can you possibly limit what He is? And can you tell me where you can find a passage in the bible that states God does NOT have a body?

    NOT only that, When Christ was ressurected, and ascended to heaven, His body went with Him!

  118. Job, I did not receive your comment!


    And anyone else here that would like to continue is welcome to comment on my blog as well.

    I just ask that you be nice 🙂

  119. Now the apostate invites others into her place to enjoy her heresy.

    In comment #117 he’s like a big ball of heresy.

    Of course if she took time to read one of my comments that she claims is so lengthy, she’d know how I’ve already shown that the Bible TOTALLY REFUTES that the Father is of flesh and bone.

    I’ve got details straight from Mormon teaching right from their own web site of heresy inspired by Satan, that shows how they really follow a false god. How Mormons believe the same heresy Satan pressed for himself. I’ll be detailing this in a post on my blog, because I want to share this with saints for them to be equipped when encountering Mormons.

    This is information that should not be relegated to a comment thread. I’ll post a link here when the post is up.

  120. I said:

    In comment #117 he’s like a big ball of heresy.

    I should have said “she’s” instead of “he’s”.

  121. Yes I posted about our conversations here, and my feelings, and anyone is more then welcome. I thought it would be rather rude to not invite the people involved.

    IC, again all I can say is I love Christ He is my Savior, and if you don’t like it…

    OH WELL 🙂

  122. Diane said

    Hello Steffielynn,

    It’s 12:32am, and I stayed up late last night, so I’m going shortly to bed, but I will reread your post tomorrow to learn more. May God bless you.

  123. Diane said

    IC, it has been some years since I’ve read information about Mormonism, so I don’t remember most of what I’ve read. I think the 2 main things that stood out to me was the fact that they believed Christ and satan were brothers and the other was something dealing with the conception of Jesus. From those 2 things I believe the teachings were extremely false.

    However, you don’t know what an individual person believes until you ask them and their beliefs doesn’t change the command to love your neighbor as yourself. In a discussion, I believe the Holy Spirit and the Word of God will draw the hearts of men to Christ.

  124. Why We Know Mormons are Not Christians and Mormonism (LDS) Teaches a False God. Sending Their Followers to the Same Error as Satan.

  125. Jay said

    Mormons believe that Jesus Christ is a creature,

    Jesus is the Son of God. I’m not sure what you mean by calling Him a creature.

    Their modern goal, however, is to get Mormonism to be regarded “a Christian denomination” so that people will view going from Mormonism to Christianity…

    Mainstream people already consider Mormonism Christian. The LDS Church doesn’t need to convince anyone of this. What they are doing now is just defending themselves from the attacks of far right wing anti-Mormons.

    Jesus Christ is uncreated

    What does that mean? It makes no sense with or without the Bible.

    Further, consider the fact that Christianity knows that God and Jesus Christ are of the same essence or substance.

    They know this because they made it up. The Bible doesn’t say this anywhere.

    the Mormon god, the Mormon Jesus

    You mean God and Christ? There is no such thing as a Mormon god and a Mormon Jesus. They are the same God and Christ that all Christians believe in. Mormons just don’t agree with all the assumptions and interpretations of Catholics and Protestants.

    that God the Father Himself was a man who progressed to godhood

    This is an interpolation of LDS belief, it is not a teaching or required belief.

    their attempts to place it into proper context generally consists of little more than attempting to demonstrate that their doctrine is justified in the Bible
    So you would like LDS members to justify it using some other book. If the Bible can justify their doctrine it should be accepted.

    Romney does not so much fear “anti – Mormon bigotry” as he is insistent upon making acceptance of Mormonism and his candidacy a package deal.

    Romney has made a point of not making his religion an issue of the race. It is right-wingers that continue to bring it up. He has said on numerous occasions that he is not a spokesman for the LDS faith and wants only to talk about the issues. So to say that he is using his candidacy to gain broad acceptance of Mormonism is disingenuous.

    Is Romney overtly evangelizing in the sense that he is passing out Mormon tracts at campaign events? No. But by establishing terms where it is inappropriate to talk about the differences between Mormons and Christians by exploiting not so much as Article 6 but the concept of “civil public religion” that was created in the early days of this country so that there could be cooperation between Unitarians, deists, freemasons, Enlightenment agnostics, and Christians and was recreated under the banner of “the religious right” to unite Catholics, Jews, and evangelical Christians, Romney is trying to get Mormonism included within the religious political mainstream.

    So no Mormon can ever run for office because that will legitimize their religion? I’m sorry, but that makes absolutely no sense.

    Basically, it is a values based – or should I say works based – universal common religion.

    Those that say Mormonism is works based don’t know a whole lot about Mormonism and are most likely parroting what someone has told them without investigating themselves.

    Of course, this means that Potemra is not black, so the Mormon teaching that blacks are the cursed seed of Ham means nothing to him.

    This was a Protestant teaching, widely believed in the 19th century. Mormons just carried over from their former religions and applied it to their theology. Last time I check Mormons never excluded blacks from their worship services or had ministers as KKK leaders like Protestants did.

    Where in the Bible does it say that “nice people” are going to heaven?

    Where does it say that nice people are going to hell?

    Was Jesus Christ being “nice” when He drove the thieves from the temple and told the Pharisees that invited Him to their house as a dinner guest that they were going to the lake of fire?

    Maybe not but he was nice to the woman at the well and the one caught in adultery. Just because Jesus called some people hypocrites and condemned them to hell doesn’t mean you can do the same. He was a perfect judge, no one else has any authority to condemn people to eternal damnation.

    Romney’s agenda is to get Mormons a seat at this secularist table that exploits religious organizations to pursue their secular goals.

    Now there’s a conspiracy theory if I’ve ever heard one.

    Mormons as calling us apostates and Gentiles is now too strident I guess

    Your right calling Mormons a cult and apostates is nothing like that. Hmmm, wait, I guess it is the same thing.

    Satan is a fallen angel; therefore created by God

    Isn’t God the supreme creator. Are you saying that Satan is uncreated? Would that make him like God?

    Some religious right leaders are actually going about claiming that Mormonism is fully compatible with the Bible, and that the differences are only interpretations, depictions, semantics, etc.

    Yes, Amen.

    Now Huckabee Hound could expose this whole racket. But he apologizes for telling the truth even in the most timid of fashions!

    He should apologize just like Romney should apologize if he insulted Huckabee or any other candidate.

    And if we are not willing to offend with the gospel, then we have no gospel.

    While sometimes it is unavoidable, you don’t always have to be offensive to defend the gospel.

    Huckabee’s apology was not for the benefits of Mormons that reject Jesus Christ, but non – Mormons who do

    No, I don’t think Huckabee is afraid of offending Mormons, he is more afraid of looking like a right wing nut. He is well aware that he will start to loose if he did that.

    By apologizing to a man whose beliefs that he knows are false for the “crime” of doing the world a favor and letting them know that they are false, Mike Huckabee shows that he is part of it.

    No, he is showing that he is serious about winning the nomination.


    He gave the keynote speech at the 1998 Southern Baptist Convention conference in Salt Lake City. The press will get that tape and make Huckabee not only look like and even bigger fool, but a liar as well.

    Given that the media is inherently liberal, having Huckabee in the lead is the best thing that could happen. They know he has no chance of winning against either of the Democratic candidates.

  126. Charles D. said


    I see that sneak attacks are popular among your LDSers. I accidently clicked your link and found that you are working both sides of the street. Better be glad you did not mention names (or, none that I could see); otherwise, you could leave yourself exposed for production in a discovery process, and you still might.

    By the way, your definition of “[c]hristian” must be the LDS version. For a truth, it is not a complete definition of followers of the Jesus, the Christ. Also, I notice that you are quite versed in all of the “pop,” vernacular, e.g., “you go girl,” however I think the most appropriate one was on your blog site: “YOU MORMONS ROCK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!” I could help but think of Jeff when I read it. You’ll know whom and what I’m talking about.


  127. Diane said

    Hello Steffielynn,

    I hope all is well with you, may God’s peace and love fill you and your home.

    My beliefs are that the Son came forth from the Father before the foundation of the earth, and that is why He is God the Son;
    everything else is created i.e. angels, planets, man etc.
    (this may be of help in understanding why the belief ‘that satan and Christ are brothers’ is offensive)

    I believe the virgin Mary was overshadowed by the Holy Spirit;
    – that Christ was born of the virgin Mary
    – that one must be born again in order to be saved
    – in order to be saved, a person has to repent and believe in
    Christ as Lord and Savior
    – when a person is born again they receive the indwelling Holy
    – that the Baptism of the Holy Spirit empowers believers
    – in the Gifts of the Spirit

    I still haven’t studied the beliefs of Mormons in depth, I’ve been very busy with my grandson, but I hope to do it soon.
    I pray most of all, that God would teach us as we grow in the knowledge of Christ. May the Holy Spirit lead us and guide us into all truth.
    Your friend Diane

  128. Diane, I look forward to more discussions with you


    What are you talking about? When did I do a “sneak attack?” Your comment makes no sense.

  129. Eden Hadassah said

    Since you are a mormon, maybe you can explain what the word Nephi means? Did I spell it right? And what is the origin of this word?

  130. Eden

    I don’t really know, but I looked it up and found this

    It talks about the origin of the name in paragraph 7

  131. Eden Hadassah said

    The link didn’t really help, and I did read the paragraph. I have seen a lot of grasping for solidifying evidence of the genuineness of the Book of Mormon claims, yet I guess what is most puzzeling for me is that there is no real continuity of language base. It isn’t Hebrew or Aramaic is it? Or is the Nephi actually the first part of the word Nephilim?

  132. It’s a great question, and I’m sorry I really do not know. There are lots of LDS who probably know, i’m just not one of them 🙂

  133. Job said

    The Three Step Salvation Plan

  134. Job said

    Newt Gingrich, Dick Morris, and Bill Clinton advising Mike Huckabee!

  135. Charles said


    I’m sorry for the confusion. I just assumed that you were included in the “intelligent people” you referred to on the other thread having to do with Mormans, reading scripture from birth. And even now I’m not sure about what confused you, so, I will just paste the whole thing below (from your blog):

    [“Let’s define Christian. It’s simple, and so many people try to complicate it.

    A Christian is a believer and a follower of Jesus Christ. A Christian is loving, kind, humble, charitable, or in other words Christ like.

    I have been having the most interesting (which is the nicest word I can come up with) conversation on another blog.

    There are a few good people on the blog, and then there are the most hateful folks I have ever encountered. And I have met some pretty awful people. They call themselves “Christian” and yet they lack the qualities of true Christians. They twist LDS beliefs, and then when an LDS person comes to defend their faith they call us liars. They judge, and then justify their actions by saying it’s ok to judge NON Christians.
    This is why I LOVE Mormons. I have never heard hateful things about any other person or religion come from ANYBODY’S mouth. They are the kindest most loving people I have ever met. They even love those who hate them. You Mormons out there are such amazing examples. Thank you all for being so flippin wonderful.
    So many people try to bring up the “you joined because you felt accepted
    they befriended you”. Which is not true, I did not know ONE member when I joined. I joined because I prayed, and my prayer was answered. BUT, the LDS people have shown me a glimpse of My Heavenly Father, and His Son because of their loving examples!
    The intent of these hateful people is to tear us down and deceive others. But the only thing they have succeeded in, is reminding me how grateful I am for the Gospel, and how grateful I am for the awesome Mormons in my life, and those that I will meet in the future.
    To all those who are hateful and judgemental, I feel so sorry for you, my heart goes out to you, I hope one day you open your heart and see the truth, and you will be blessed with happiness, peace, and love!
    My love to you all! YOU MORMONS ROCK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!”

    If you are still confused, let me know, I will explain in greater detail.


  136. happyman4 said

    Bottom line – a Christian is a person that follows Jesus Christ period!-

    I don’t believe that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saint wants to be consider a Christian denomination like Lutheran or Anglican – we are not and never will be – We are Christian in that we follow the teachings of Jesus Christ – there are basically 3 groups of Religions that follow Jesus Christ – Latter Day Saints – Catholics – and Protestants –

    I would imagine those first century Christian would not conform you what many say are Christian –

    Please see a talk by one of our leaders –,5239,23-1-775,00.html

    Peace and Grace

  137. Im still confused. I sent a link to this blog and invited you all to read it. So what is your point, again you make NO sense. There is nothing “sneaky” going on.

    So please explain in greater detail.

    thanks steffielynn

  138. Charles said


    Having viewed some of your other comments, both, before and after you left and returned I am of the opinion that a running dialogue would prove futile.

    What you have going is a recruitment drive which is failing. Badly. Good bye steffielynn.


  139. Job said


    Bottom line – a Christian is a person that follows Jesus Christ period!-” So, what about the people who claim that Jesus was a regular man, possibly a leftist radical rabbi, who did not rise from the dead (the stance of the religious left and many revisionist Jews)? What about the people who claim that Jesus was a prophet but not divine (Muslims) and that he never went to the cross (Muslims and gnostics)? And what about the people that claim that Jesus was homosexual? Yes they do exist. So, are all those people Christian? If not (or so) who sets the standard? It looks like Mormons are. Mormons have unilaterally decided that Christianity includes Christians, Mormons, and no one else. Look, you know perfectly well that it is possible for an atheist to declare Jesus to have been merely a human repressed homosexual leftist rabbi, declare the Bible to be a book of parables and metaphors that even the people who wrote it and first kept it did not regard as true but rather as a moral/ethical/philosophical guide and system, and claim to be following “the true message of Jesus Christ” based on whatever moral code or philosophy they choose to interpret from the Bible. How do you know? Because there are people just like that! Lots of them! Especially in the religion departments at our leading universities! So by your own standard, or the standard that you have just articulated, “a Christian is a person that follows Jesus Christ period”, you would be prevented from telling an atheist who claims to be following the philosophy of Jesus Christ just as someone would follow the philosophies of Buddha, Confucius, Ghandi, etc. “No you are not a Christian.” Am I right or am I wrong?

    I don’t believe that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saint wants to be consider a Christian denomination like Lutheran or Anglican – we are not and never will be – We are Christian in that we follow the teachings of Jesus Christ – there are basically 3 groups of Religions that follow Jesus Christ – Latter Day Saints – Catholics – and Protestants –

    Did you work for the Al Gore campaign, or the Bill Clinton administration? Because it certainly seems like you are. First, you deny that you desire for Mormonism to be considered a Christian denomination. THEN you say “here are basically 3 groups that follow Jesus Christ – Latter Day Saints – Catholics – and Protestants“!

    Pardon me, but what is the meaning of “is”? It depends on what the meaning of “is” is, right? Denying something only to later affirm what you previously denied is the oldest trick on the book. Or actually, the second oldest, the first being how Satan deceived Eve. No, wait, I am wrong, your little tactic falls under the “pride of life” tent. So it IS the oldest trick in the book. Well, Mr. “I would imagine those first century Christian would not conform you what many say are Christian –” Joseph Smith and Brigham Young would most certainly have not juxtaposed Roman Catholicism, Protestantism, and Mormonism. No, until VERY RECENTLY, Mormons called all Christians apostates and Gentiles. Mormons called Christianity a perverse satanic deception.

  140. An oldie to check out:
    OK Mormons, Come Check Out These


  141. Eden Hadassah said

    Why is it, that it is ok for people to think that Mormon Mitt can have his beliefs about owning his own planet someday, and Kursinach (spelling?)can’t believe he saw the UFO?…which I might add could take Mormon Mitt to his planet for sure and solidify his faith? 🙂
    I can see it now…
    Mormon Mitt (R) the President and Vice President Kursinach (D)working together for interstellar harmony and peace! Mike Huckabee can be the Secretary of Defense coming to the aid of Mormon Mitt preaching a message of the first Church to be planted on planet Gullible with the First Lady at the Helm!

    Really folks, where do I sign up to vote? 😉

  142. happyman4 said

    Hi Job –

    Just a quick note – when I defined Catholics – purposely did not say Roman Catholic – So under the Catholic heading would include the ORTHODOX churches – and some day soon the may be reunited – I didn’t think I needed to explain that – since I said Protestants I didn’t think I needed to go into each one –

    Your argument about Christians – I say that you are wrong – I said that a Christian is a person that follows the teaching of Jesus Christ – This is from –

    1. of, pertaining to, or derived from Jesus Christ or His teachings: a Christian faith.
    2. of, pertaining to, believing in, or belonging to the religion based on the teachings of Jesus Christ: Spain is a Christian country.
    3. of or pertaining to Christians: many Christian deaths in the Crusades.
    4. exhibiting a spirit proper to a follower of Jesus Christ; Christlike: She displayed true Christian charity.
    5. decent; respectable: They gave him a good Christian burial.
    6. human; not brutal; humane: Such behavior isn’t Christian.
    –noun 7. a person who believes in Jesus Christ; adherent of Christianity.
    8. a person who exemplifies in his or her life the teachings of Christ: He died like a true Christian.
    9. a member of any of certain Protestant churches, as the Disciples of Christ and the Plymouth Brethren.
    10. the hero of Bunyan’s Pilgrim’s Progress.
    11. a male given name.

    When I spoke about denomination I should have been clearer – LDS do not want to be consider a protestant denomination – There are many people that don’t this Catholics are Christians –

    I’m glad you read my post – did you listen the link – Elder Ballard really explains it much better than I can –

    Proud to be a Latter Day Saint!!

    Peace and Grace

  143. happyman4 said

    Eden Hadassah

    The way you say Mormon Mitt – isn’t really nice – I can tell from that one statement that you do not like Mormoms – That is sad – Didn’t Jesus say to love everyone – even your enemies –

    Peace and Grace

  144. Job said


    Fair enough. I removed what I said about your leaving out the Orthodox.

    You returned with:

    “1. of, pertaining to, or derived from Jesus Christ or His teachings: a Christian faith.
    2. of, pertaining to, believing in, or belonging to the religion based on the teachings of Jesus Christ: Spain is a Christian country.
    3. of or pertaining to Christians: many Christian deaths in the Crusades.
    4. exhibiting a spirit proper to a follower of Jesus Christ; Christlike: She displayed true Christian charity.
    5. decent; respectable: They gave him a good Christian burial.
    6. human; not brutal; humane: Such behavior isn’t Christian.
    –noun 7. a person who believes in Jesus Christ; adherent of Christianity.
    8. a person who exemplifies in his or her life the teachings of Christ: He died like a true Christian.
    9. a member of any of certain Protestant churches, as the Disciples of Christ and the Plymouth Brethren.
    10. the hero of Bunyan’s Pilgrim’s Progress.
    11. a male given name.”

    Where does that exclude a person who claims that Jesus Christ was a repressed homosexual rabbi who did not die for our sins or rose from the dead, but was a political leftist subversive, and as such calling yourself a “Christian” is no different from calling yourself a Marxist? Or a Malthusian (after the economist)? Or a Platonist (after the philosopher)?

    Now such a person could certainly claim to qualify under “1. of, pertaining to, or derived from Jesus Christ or His teachings: a Christian faith.” and even do a very good job of aligning himself with most of the others.

    Is that person a Christian, or is that person not? What matters? What a person calls himself, or what a person believes? And who gets to set the standard? Now personally, this is just a vain intellectual exercise for me, because what you choose to call yourself is your own affair. I just want you to admit that there are people that you would not accept as “a fellow Christian” just because they call themselves one because their beliefs do not reflect what you accept as Christianity. Of course, you will never do so, because once you admit that you have the right to say that a person’s beliefs disqualify him from being able to claim to be a Christian, then that gives a Christian the right to do the same to a Mormon.

    But just to challenge you a bit, I am familiar with what your church calls “apostate Mormons.” Meaning former Mormons who left the Mormon church. Now if a baptized Mormon leaves the Mormon church and becomes a Presbyterian, is that person a Christian? Again, reconcile that question with what you well know that your own faith teaches concerning apostate Mormons.

  145. Eden Hadassah said

    I guess you too believe in judging now don’t you? Will you actually state things that are totally false? I hate mormons?
    Now, now…don’t get all offended because I stated something that was true about mormons. Otherwise I might ask you if you were in fact a self-hating mormon. I don’t hate any mormons and actually lived with some for a time. They were the sweetest people I ever met. The husband turned out to be a total freako but I guess you don’t really know a person till you live with them, do you?
    The “nice” thing doesn’t work here. You are not at church or in a mormon chat room or blog. You are at a site that is different than your church in every way.
    I sir, in no way would ever consider “killing you with kindness.” That’s not my style.
    But don’t you believe what Mitt believes? And if you do, what would be the problem with me saying Mormon Happy Man? Or Mormon Steffie? And you never answered my question either, as obserd as it was. If you are proud of who you are and defend your faith, why can’t I call Mitt, “Mormon Mitt”? What was so hateful about that? Or even angry?
    Don’t go all “martyr” on me.
    Yes Yeshua says to love everyone and that includes my enemies, but right now, you are the furthest from being an enemy that I could imagine…I have bigger fish to fry, or catch. (so to speak)

  146. happyman4 said

    Hi Eden –
    I guess I jumped the gun a little – It just gets me whenever anyone ( and it just happened to be you) puts a label in front of a name – it’s can be taken as an offense – sort of like the N word – Hope you understand – I am not offended by you now –

    Peace and Grace

  147. happyman4 said

    Hi Job –

    I need to ponder your question – I think I know where you are coming from – but I need to think more –


    Peace and Grace

  148. And sister Eden said:

    Why is it, that it is ok for people to think that Mormon Mitt can have his beliefs about owning his own planet someday, and Kursinach (spelling?)can’t believe he saw the UFO?…which I might add could take Mormon Mitt to his planet for sure and solidify his faith? 🙂
    I can see it now…
    Mormon Mitt (R) the President and Vice President Kursinach (D)working together for interstellar harmony and peace! Mike Huckabee can be the Secretary of Defense coming to the aid of Mormon Mitt preaching a message of the first Church to be planted on planet Gullible with the First Lady at the Helm!

    Really folks, where do I sign up to vote? 😉






    But on a serious note, those who desire to be “gods” have a lot to think about.

    Genesis 3:1-5 (King James Version)

    1 Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?

    2 And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:

    3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.

    4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

    5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

    See how history repeats with the lies in Mormon so-called “scripture”.

    D&C 132: 19-20

    19 And again, verily I say unto you, if a man marry a wife by my word, which is my law, and by the new and everlasting covenant, and it is sealed unto them by the Holy Spirit of promise, by him who is anointed, unto whom I have appointed this power and the keys of this priesthood; and it shall be said unto them÷Ye shall come forth in the first resurrection; and if it be after the first resurrection, in the next resurrection; and shall inherit thrones, kingdoms, principalities, and powers, dominions, all heights and depths-then shall it be written in the Lamb’s Book of Life, that he shall commit no murder whereby to shed innocent blood, and if ye abide in my covenant, and commit no murder whereby to shed innocent blood, it shall be done unto them in all things whatsoever my servant hath put upon them, in time, and through all eternity; and shall be of full force when they are out of the world; and they shall pass by the angels, and the gods, which are set there, to their exaltation and glory in all things, as hath been sealed upon their heads, which glory shall be a fulness and a continuation of the seeds forever and ever.
    20 Then shall they be gods, because they have no end; therefore shall they be from everlasting to everlasting, because they continue; then shall they be above all, because all things are subject unto them. Then shall they be gods, because they have all power, and the angels are subject unto them.

    And the viper named Joseph Smith Junior still has people defending his false doctrine.

    Real scripture (the Bible) says the children of God will be like angels, not “gods”.
    Luke 20:34-36 (King James Version)

    34 And Jesus answering said unto them, The children of this world marry, and are given in marriage:

    35 But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage:

    36 Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.

    Now either Jesus is lying or Joseph Smith Junior lied! I’ll stick with the real Jesus of the Bible. Joseph Smith Junior was a lying false prophet who burns in hell. Beware the false Mormon “jesus” who’s father had a father and grandfather and so on, 2 Corinthians 11:3-4.

    Just like the serpent with Eve, the false Mormon doctrine promises to become “gods” and that’s a false promise made by a false prophet who teaches of a false jesus, with a false father who once was human.

  149. Charles

    In one comment you complain because Mormons don’t stick around to answer your questions. In another comment you complain because Mormons come here to discuss the issues. You can’t have it both ways, either you want to discuss or you don’t.

    And as for Me “playing both sides”!!?? I’m on one side, haven’t switched, haven’t changed, therefore it is not possible to “play both sides”. I have had my own blog for a while now. It is open for anyone to come and discuss anything about the LDS faith. I have nothing to hide.

    But either way I am more then happy to say farewell! Your arguments and attacks were getting old!


    You may not be nice, but most Mormons will treat others with respect. We try to follow the teachings regarding love those who hate you, if you don’t, well, that just goes to show what kind of person you are.

    Happyman4 has gone back and forth with MANY anti’s. He has ALWAYS been kind, it is not an act. Mormons do not act one way at church and another way at home (or on the computer). He is a genuine loving guy, the kind you want on your side 🙂

    I am blessed, with amazing family, friends, love, peace, and happiness in my soul. I wish this for you all 🙂

  150. Steffielynn said:

    But either way I am more then happy to say farewell!

    Here we go again. A claim to leave, but we know how HONEST she’s been with that.

    Well Eden, you said a lot less to them than me. You asked a few questions, made a joke and suddenly you’re not “nice”. Well welcome to the mean club. Where we tell Mormons the truth and they don’t accept it as love.

    Mormons do not act one way at church and another way at home (or on the computer).

    Well when a couple Mormon so-called “elders” came to my door, they are acting nice at first. Then after I told them about Joseph Smith Junior’s adultery and that he was a false prophet, one of them was not looking so nice any longer and the other was no longer smiling. And behind the scenes the fake ‘elders’ can get into a bit of a tussle now and then with each other.

    I am blessed, with amazing family, friends, love, peace, and happiness in my soul.

    She says she’s Christian. Just said she has amazing family, but when I mentioned her parents, this is what I got in response:

    Right IC, i’ll get back to my parents teachings. People who claimed to be “Christians” and abused my sisters and I, both mentally and physically. My stepfather was awful and mean and hateful, hmmm kind of like you.

    Now if she felt Christians were her family, she’d not feel we were mean. If she felt Mormons were her family, who are the “friends”? I guess “family” does not mean “parents”.

    Honestly I feel for her parents. However bad they might have been, they not only warned her about Mormonism, they still desire she leave it now. In some regard, they love her a great deal. And I don’t see them bad mouthing her on the Internet.

  151. Charles D. said

    Hey steffielynn

    Help me out here! Where did I say: “In another comment you complain because Mormons come here to discuss the issues..”?

    I remember saying recruitin as recent as today, but, discuss the issues escape me; since the “issue” is pretty much framed already, e.g., Mormons aren’t Christians, but, often say they are. One needs only to look at statements made by regulars to see that. You say you are happy with where and what you are and so are we for that matter. Not much to discuss. Oh yeah! Every now and again, when a thread leads off with a truism, a Mormon or two, or three, weighs in until a pointed question is asked, then, it’s “hit the books, do research, and LSD manuals for an appropriate response to put the best face on a hell bound situation.

    And as you say, Happyman is a good guy; well NEWS FLASH!!! I believe that Hell is going to be full of people that performed “works” and fes pleasure centers on this side of eternity, you included. Unless you and he comes to know the saving grace of Jesus, the Christ and Him crucified, although He will that none should perish, but now, it is showtime and thus far you have shown that you and those practicing Smith’s doctrine are lost; just walking around in shells, awaiting the angel that announce that “time as you know it will be no more.” Smith will not be able to save you because there is a special place reserved for him; kindness cannot save you because that consists of works without fauth, the lies that you have relied on to get you to where you will be will not eveb be heard because a liar cannot tarry in the sight of God.

    So, as I see it, you’ve made your decision! Everything else is just a matter of choices. You’ve been told numerous times: CHOOSE LIFE, CHOOSE LIFE, CHOOSE LIFE!


    Excuse typos if any, it is late, I rise early and work hard, but I still have an obligation to tell you: CHOOSE LIFE, CHOOSE LIFE, CHOOSE LIFE!

  152. Charles D. said

    Hey Happyman:

    I am not sure how you meant it:”It just gets me whenever anyone ( and it just happened to be you) puts a label in front of a name – it’s can be taken as an offense – sort of like the N word – Hope you understand – I am not offended by you now -”

    however, I fail to understand how placing a label “in front of a name” is sort of like the N-word. I would have given you more credit if you had just gone on and said what was on your mind, because what we (I believe to a man/woman) understand is the history behind and the doctrine of your jack-legged doctrine, irrespective of how you will deny it or cover it; the core feelings and practices are secondary only to the lies upon which your faith, or, the lack thereof are based.

    Have a good one.


  153. Fran said

    Resist the devil and he shall flee. Shake the dust off your feet, and you know the rest.

  154. IC, My comment was addressed specifically to Charles. He said goodbye, and I said farewell back. TO HIM.

    Sorry, I know you are dying to get rid of me! 🙂

    My family, IC would consist of my 2 adorable, amazing, awesome children, and My equally amazing husband.

    I have no idea how you can talk about someones family when you have NO idea what you are talking about.

    I will not go into the horrific things my step father, real father and many other men in my life did to my sisters and I, but I’m sure you can imagine. But your right, they are Christians, they were teaching me the correct ways, trying to keep me from those loving caring Mormons!

  155. Eden Hadassah said

    Steffie said:

    “You may not be nice, but most Mormons will treat others with respect. We try to follow the teachings regarding love those who hate you, if you don’t, well, that just goes to show what kind of person you are.”

    I’m sorry but I don’t understand this comment? Did you know that you can have respect for someone and not be nice?
    What kind of statement are you making Steffie? Do you actually believe that I hate you? I knew you were a mormon when I asked you where you went to high school. If I hated you, I would probably be hating myself too. I am not stuck in that kind of mire. I don’t hate anyone, but since when is not being nice synonomous with hate?
    Nice is not a fruit of the Spirit. Wouldn’t you agree? Nice is a part of the “politically correct” way of “loving.” I am definately not nice when I tell my 12 year old that she can not date or wear makeup…does it mean I hate her? Geez.
    I think the biggest problem to date that I have seen among many mormons is “the sweetness factor.” There is an appearance of goodness, and even some actions that may be considered good, but get right down to the nitty gritty, and they will accuse you of being hateful, mean, and judgemental, which by the way is judging.
    It would be a false assumption for you to say that mormons are the same at home as they are out of the house or at church. I lived with them. They were very sweet…nicest people you will ever meet. But I lived with proud mormons, and even when the husband was being “nice and loving” he was abusing his brain damaged daughter. He was very nice, even when his wife filed for divorce. He was even nice when he appeared in court to answer charges of physical abuse towards his 14 year old daughter. He was nice when he came into the room my daughter was sleeping in and pulled off the covers to take a picture of her while she was sleeping. He was nice and creepy too. He was nice when he took all my morphine (a bottle that would have lasted me longer than I would have needed for)that was needed for relaxing my lungs after coming out of the hospital with a near fatal case pnumonia, and drank it all in about two days.
    I tell you he didn’t break a sweat being so nice. He smiled the whole time we lived there. He even was nice enough to steal things that we had stored in his garage…my husbands tools, electronics and the little that we had left. Do I hate him? Absolutely not. He is sick and needs help. Does my experience with him color my perception of other mormons? Nope. They are all sweet and nice. And that’s about it.

  156. happyman4 said

    Hello Charles –

    Putting a name or lable in front of someone like Mormon, Jew, N or whatever – is derogatory i.e – 1. Disparaging; belittling: a derogatory comment.
    2. Tending to detract or diminish

    In the way that I see it here it fits those terms –

    Your name is Charles – would it be right to call you evangelical Charles, or silly Charles, or whatever – It is preferred to call someone by their given name rather than trying to put a description in front of their name – So rather than referring to Mormon Mitt – just say Mitt – why does one have to put a description in front of the name when everyone know who your talking about other than to belittle the person your talking about –

    I learned a long time ago that when I descripe a friend – I don’t say my black friend or Asian friend, or my Jewish friend – I just say my friend – Hope you understand –

    Peace and Grace

  157. Eden Hadassah said

    I guess now I am really confused????
    Why isn’t the screen name you chose just “man”? Why would you choose “HappyMan?” It seems like you have a double standard when it comes to the rules of labels.

  158. Charles D. said

    evangelical Charles? You would absolutely make my day!!! 🙂

    On the other hand, I could leave the given name off altogether and be even more offense, i.e. “N-Pleasseee!!!!

  159. Charles D. said


    I was not saying goodbye. At all! I was saying on the subject of Mormons, I’ve said pretty much all I had to say on that subject, to you. Hey! I’m not a quitter; I’m a “$44.50 or fight” kind of guy. Then too, the sweetness was getting to me. The fact that you represented yourself as having a husband in Iraq gave me pause, and if true, the bomds I share with a soldier, out weighs any disagreement I have with your theology (or lack thereof). Even the Soldier-Sailor Relief Act covers the spouse and children of a soldier. I’m certainly not going to say anything to you that goes against what I consider a fraternal bond.

    When he returns, let me know, and then you will find I can and will “throwdown” with the both of you. Does that mean my opinion have changed i iota about the falsity of the Mormon doctrine? See my last sentence to the H-man above.

    I hope your husband return safely home to you.


  160. Eden

    As with everything else we disagree on this issue, I believe that love does infact include being nice, respectful, and kind. (as well as not belittling a group of people because you disagree with them.)

    I think this converstion (not as much with Eden, but everyone else) has become extremely childish.

    I want to make sure everyone understands this is my PERSONAL opinion. And you are entitled to yours…

    You don’t think we are Christian, by your definition. You believe there are certain specific things you must believe in order to be saved from burning in Hell. (the trinity, etc.)

    By our definition, one must have faith in Christ to be Christian, and we have faith in Christ therefore we consider ourselves to be Christian.

    So you think we are not, and we think we are.

    God will decide our fate at judgement. And that is all that matters.

    To each one of you I apologize for letting this pettiness go on so long.

    I ask that you respect me as a person. As a wife, a mother, a women, a child of God.

    I am passionate about my faith. I love my Savior.

    If you are interested in continuing in a civil respectful manner, I would like to continue.

  161. Charles, thank you

    I do have a husband in Iraq, (I don’t understand why you sre so quick to think people are lying)

    He does not enjoy going back and forth about this stuff, so you probably will not find him on here. He actually does not want me to on here either, he has read peoples comments to me and has become very upset by them. (calling me a liar etc)

    I understand that you disagree with me. I can accept that. I’m not even asking you to accept us as being Christian, I have realized that your definition is different then ours, and by your definition we are not. I can accept that.

    I am not here to offend any of you, I am here to defend MY faith. I hope you understand this.

    (a side note, my husband will be home on leave all of next month, so at least you will be rid of me for a short time 🙂 )

  162. also on the “mormon” label

    Mormon is considered in the LDS community as derogatory. Many take offense.

    I know I use Mormon all the time, and I don’t mind it, It sets us apart, but many do not like it, and being that all of you think Mormons are going to burn in hell, you are not using the “label” in a kind way, you are using it as a deragatory remark.

    I have been a bad example, I will try to use LDS more often.

    “The original use of the term “Mormon” was derived from the Book of Mormon in the early 19th century by other Christians. It was considered a derogatory term.”


    “Because of the distinct belief in the Book of Mormon among Smith’s followers, people outside the church began to refer them as “Mormonites” or “Mormons.” Smith and other church elders considered the name “Mormon” derogatory.[1] In May 1834, the church adopted a resolution that the church would be known thereafter as The Church of the Latter Day Saints.[2] At various times the church was also referred to as The Church of Jesus Christ and The Church of God.”

    I assume many of you did not know this, (and now that you know I’m sure you’ll understand) but this is what Happyman4 was trying to say.

  163. Eden Hadassah said

    I will be praying for your husband’s safety.
    We can disagree on many things, but I have to tell you that my jokes are not just about Mormons…I joke about everything that I feel is ironic. That includes other Christians. As you can tell at the HealtheLand site, there is no shortage of comments on many different types of religions, and that includes even evangelicals. I am most cutting towards my own people…those who are jewish. So in my joking, I consider what I said to be extremely tame.
    Did you understand my joke? I know you and others may have felt it was demeaning, but was it really? Can Mitt be looked at as a hero of sorts for his beliefs yet Kurcinach be looked at like a whack-job because he saw a UFO? Both are true are they not?
    You believe that you will have your own planet someday and be a god don’t you? That is what your scriptures say. So why would it be mean for me to point that out?
    Many people loved Kurcinach until he said he was friends with Shirley McClane and that they both saw the UFO. Then he got almost no support. So is it more sane to believe you will have a planet and be a god rather than two people who claim they actually saw a UFO? My question was directed towards the irony of such things. Throw Mike Huckabee into the mix (evangelical)because he is trying to smooth things over concerning matters of faith. There are big differences between Christians and Mormons, and the Mormons I know (not including the ones I mentioned) didn’t consider them selves christians…they always said they were Mormons. That was the distinction. What I have noticed is that because Christians call Mormons a cult, it would seem that Mormons don’t really like that much and now are trying to say they too are christians. Catholics did the same thing. During the forming of the Ecumenical movement, it seems that everyone is supposed to be put under the banner of Christian if they believe in a Jesus…
    I don’t understand the big push to be called a Christian. To be one you would have to throw away the “other gospel” and renownce the mormon faith. Not to mention the deep ties that LDS has to Freemasonry, which is nothing more than Satan worship. That is what Joseph Smith was before his death. I am sure you knew that.

  164. happyman4 said

    Eden – Happyman is a name I choose and one that I like – I don’t see why that would confuse you –

  165. happyman4 said

    the label Mormon in itself is not bad or wrong – and it’s not the word itself that causes offense – but rather the tone that it is said in – So when people here say Mormon Mitt it is derogatory – it’s not meant with respect – I am very proud to be a Mormon boy! an dI tell people that I am a Mormon – or a Latter day Saint or LDS – SO Steffilynn – never question your use of the word – When “we” say Mormon – we say it with love and respect – Remember – Mormons Rock!!!!!

    Peace and Grace

  166. Eden Hadassah said

    It’s a label isn’t it? Good labels are ok right? So Mormon Mitt should be a good label for him too. I didn’t say Monsterous Mitt, or Moronic Mitt. And if I left the “m” out of Mormon it would be Moron, and that would be derogatory. The only way Mormon Mitt would be derogatory is if YOU (not me) didn’t really feel that being a Mormon was a good thing. There are lots of labels…everyone uses them, including you.

  167. Eden Hadassah said

    Thats Right Happyman! And not once did you use the word Christian! What is the big deal?

  168. happyman4 said

    I think my question would be – why use Mormon Mitt – and not use Baptist Huckabee in the same sentence?

  169. Eden,

    People who associate UFO’s and LDS beliefs are way off. And I understand NOW that you were joking, but it is not easy to tell a joke from an insult on the computer. (add a little j/k in there to prevent confusion)

    The idea that we will becomes “gods” is complicated, and many people outside of our faith twist it to sound wacked. Yes former prophets have said we will become “gods” but they do not mean we will become even close to our Father in Heaven. We believe we will inherit His kingdoms, and that is what He has told us (even in the bible) But I can understand how it might sould weird to people who do not understand it. But there are some pretty “weird” things about other doctrines and ideas.

    Also there are some pretty far fetched ideas in the bible, a man swallowed by a fish, a man losing strength because his hair was cut off, 5,000 people being feed with only 5 loaves and 2 fish, men building a tower to get to God, I could go on and on. I believe these things to be true, but they are crazy!

    So just because an idea sounds different, you have to reflect and realize that you have ideas that sound crazy as well. (to people who do not believe in the bible) It’s sort of hypocrytical.

    Happyman4 your correct! (especially about the Mormons ROCK part 🙂 )

  170. Eden Hadassah said

    The bible is not the same as the book of Mormon. That is why you may feel others misrepresent your faith. Again, there is a dividing line here, isn’t there? If all mormons are Christians than all Christians are mormons. Right?

    I believe exactly what the bible says about Jonah and Samson, and I have no problem believing it. Those are not doctrines but the word of God that says such things. The book of Mormon is not the word of God, but it was a book created during a time of great distress for Freemasons, of which the Smith’s where members of. It’s a little too coincidental.

  171. I disagree I believe it to be the word of God.

    But if you are Christian and a baptist, would you consider a methodist, who is also a Christian to be a Baptist?

  172. Fran said:

    Resist the devil and he shall flee. Shake the dust off your feet, and you know the rest.

    Well said.

    I’ll add to that.

    Matthew 7:6 (King James Version)

    6 Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.

    There comes a time to leave the dogs to continue eating their own vomit if they enjoy it. I agree Fran, that time has come. Although I had to comment for a time for those who embrace the truth or might be seeking it.

    Eden, I’m going to move on from this discussion, because a sow continues wallowing in the mire. I just wanted to mention in my parting comment from this thread, that I found it most interesting how when you asked someone about Nephi they played most naive, while it is a topic covered in material highlighted in prior posts, that same person was involved in. Amazing how they didn’t know much about Nephi when its been noted in other posts they commented on and in videos they claimed they viewed.

    And finally for this discussion I’ll say, that while some of us who are Christians at times have our inside discussions on various matters and may disagree on some non-essential matters, I thank the Lord many of us came together in agreement when facing false teaching from the outside. From those who refuse to come to the truth and are deluded. Refusing the basic essentials of who God is and what one must do to be saved. Refusing to accept the truth of how anyone receives eternal life, even refusing to know what eternal life actually is for God’s children. Perhaps God will one day grant them repentance, leading to the knowledge of the truth and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil.

  173. Eden Hadassah said

    I am not a baptist or any denomination.
    Christian denominations are like different varieties of grapes…
    Mormons are a vine fruit too, but not grape. More like Kiwi, watermelon, or other vine fruit not of the grape family.
    They all taste good, but one could not be mistaken for the other.

    or if we were to use the olive tree:
    Olive trees (jews) are grafted with wild olives (gentile christians)
    But Mormons are Russian Olives. (Not really an olive tree, just called one. Russian Olives are more like currents that grow by water…they are a nitrogen fixing plant with beautiful foliage and tasty tart fruit) Just as tasty, just not an olive.

  174. happyman4 said

    We have a loving heavenly Father that will judge us on what we know, what is in our hearts and what we do – This is scriptural – Some will be judge harsher than others – because that have been given much – They will be judge by the law that they have –

    I’m sorry that you think we Mormons are being lead astray be the devil – or that you are cast your pearls before swine – with us being the swine:-))

    Life on this earth is very short – we need to embrace what is true – what is Holy – what is good – and for me that is my LDS faith – and no one has the right to tell me that because of that faith I am in the hands of Satan or going to hell – What you do have a right to do is to explain the way that you believe – The Holy Spirit testifies of truth to all – I listen to the Holy Spirit and I am guided by the Holy Spirit – and there is nothing that you can say that will convince me that I have not followed the Spirit.

    It doesn’t do anyone any good to point finger at anyone – I’ve always loved what Mother Theresa said – if your going to be a Hindu – be the best Hindu you can be, a Buddhist, be the best Buddhist you can be, a Christian, be the best Christian you can be – (I’ve paraphrased her) I think you get the point –

    no offense is intended to anyone –

    Peace and Grace

  175. I like your analogy, I don’t agree totally, but at least it was a nice way of putting it 🙂

    Every denomination has different ideas, different doctrines.

    Some believe to be “saved” you must be baptized, others do not. Some believe in the creeds, some do not. Some believe in the trinity, some do not.

    If you are all Christian, but you disagree and your doctrines are different, then you are either NOT all Christian or you ARE all Christian, and if you ARE all Christian, then you should accept ALL believers of Christ is a Christian.

  176. Happyman


    I have a question for those who call us liars,

    What would we gain by comming here and lying?

    As I have stated many many times I come here to defend my faith from being twisted by non/anti Mormons. I do not come here to lie about my beliefs. God has come into my life and has changed my heart. My only desire is that people who are lost, hurting, sad, and alone will find peace in their souls like I have. I do not come here to criticize your beliefs, If you believe in Christ, and you are a good hearted person, then I believe we will see each other one day in a much better place.

    Again I disagree with your line of thinking, and just because you believe you are right and try to use the bible to justify, you are still not the judge, but either way I wish you well and I hope that one day your heart will soften and you will know the true meaning of love thy neighbor!

  177. Charles D. said

    Eden: Truer words could not have been spoken! What’s called an analogy, is pure truth. One needs look no further than Ish to see that. Also, Ish 2, if one looks upon the words of “sacrifice” and “offering” as “sweetness” “nice” pleasantries,” it foretells what will happen in that day. More importantly it tells about the here and now.

    Being nice, sweet, treating others as one would like to be treated is good and well; that what we should do, however, absent of faith and belief in Christ as we are commanded to do, yurns all of the sweetness, nicities, and well-treatment, into awful smelling smells to the nostrils of God.

    It is so easy to defeat, willful dogma with scripture alone. It is quite unnecessary to use anything else. The truth is the truth and only the truth will make you free; not set you free, but, make you free.

    Freedom is at times, most times, a state of mind. What state are you in today, Happy, et all? I am free indeed.

    In Christ,


  178. Truth is a pure heart and faith in Christ. And it is simple and available for all God’s children.

    The only ones who know the truth in your heart are God, and His Son Jesus Christ!

    You all can say what you wish, they are the only ones that matter!

  179. Eden Hadassah said

    Off the subject, but the Lord has impressed upon my heart to ask everyone to pray. Something is coming, I don’t know what, and I don’t even have a clue as to what it is, but He is saying to Pray!
    It is something serious, due to the intensity that I am feeling right now…
    Be in prayer everyone.

  180. happyman4 said

    you can count on my prayer –

    Peace and Grace

  181. Aaron said

    Evangelical Christians are cocksucking shit licking butt fucking whores who destroy good in this world. Jesus would rape their fucking mouths with his fat cock for using their name. Idiot fuckers.

    We pray to Jesus that every “Evangelical Christian” and their mother, father, sister, brother, son, daughter, kitten, puppy, and dog, and cat, contract horrendous and painful pancreatic or lung cancer, and die in agony. In Jesus’ name we pray. Aaron Johanson, Angel of the Lord.

  182. I don’t know what “lord” Aaron claims, but it’s certainly not the Lord Jesus of the Bible with 66 books.

  183. Charles said

    I thought you would knw that Aaron is a reprobate. What little of a mind he has left, welcome evil as good. He knows no better if he is in fact a he (if you get my drift). This is the kind of foul spirit that the apostle needed Jesus ro remove.

    Also, “‘it” has never dawned on this horrible creator that it is dieing in its’ very disdainful and sinful state. I would not even communicate or otherwise acknowledge this “thing” as existing! Please block the this spirit from having access to your other readers.

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