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Should Christians Support Waterboarding?

Posted by Job on December 12, 2007

Doing the usual routine, driving around listening to talk radio, and came across the Bill Bennett radio show. Its name? “Morning in America.” After, of course, the Ronald Reagan campaign slogan. Which was what, 27 years ago? Yet folks are still wrapping themselves around his name and administration to make money and earn a name for themselves, just like pro murder in the womb (and on the streets of New York City) Rudy Giuliani is trying to win the support of social conservatives by reminding everyone that he was the #3 guy in Ed Meese’s Justice Department, a fact that he never mentioned much while he was cross – dressing and attending the gay pride parades, using state money and resources to help him cheat on his wife, shacking up with a homosexual couple, making New York into a sanctuary city for illegal aliens, endorsing Mario Cuomo for governor, appointing Democrats to the judiciary, and brazenly declaring to the New York Conservative Party that he would NEVER back down from his principled support for late term abortions even if it meant costing them his endorsement and the 300,000 votes that came with it in what was expected to be a very close Senate race with Hillary Clinton (the Conservative Party stated that unless he agreed to oppose late term abortions, they would run a third party candidate, something that people like this National Review’s David Frum who claim with a straight face that he will appoint pro – life judges hope that you do not remember). Now please realize that Ronald Reagan was a former actor that signed the nation’s most liberal abortion law as governor, put two pro – abortion judges on the Supreme Court, gave illegal immigrants amnesty and generally refused to enforce the border, and whose wife was a certified witch who contacted astrologers and necromancers. Yet why do social conservatives revere Reagan? Oh, because he called America “the shining city on a hill” or something. Fine, except that it isn’t true. That is, unless you are a Mormon who has various doctrines about the garden of Eden being in Missouri and their Jesus coming back to make New Jerusalem somewhere thereabouts. Incidentally, Frum’s National Review just endorsed Mitt Romney, claiming that his deceiving the liberal voters of Massachusetts into thinking that he supported their socially liberal beliefs is actually A GOOD THING because he lied and flip – flopped for our side!

Yes, and that is precisely the same sort of “ends justifies means” thinking that is used to justify waterboarding to interrogate terrorists. A caller to the Bill Bennett show declared himself to be ex – military and gave the patented arguments in favor of the tactic. It is not physical torture but rather “only” psychological/emotional/mental torture that does no real harm. Sure, so all the people that we have in the psychiatric wards, since there is nothing PHYSICALLY wrong with them they are OK, right? So maybe we should let them all out of their institutions. Where would they stay? Hey, since there is nothing wrong with them, maybe they could go live with that guy! They could, you know, babysit his kids while he and his wife go out shopping. Well you go on and try that Mr. ex – military “psychological torture isn’t torture” fellow, and let me know how it works out for you.

And then he resorts to “the Geneva convention prohibition against torture does not cover terrorists.” That is true. But guess what? The Geneva convention doesn’t protect YOU either. Are you a member of an army of a nation that the United States is at war against that has surrendered or been captured on the field of battle? I am going to go with the mathematical probability here and say that if you are reading this, the answer is no. Then the Geneva convention does not apply to you. But I am a U.S. citizen (or citizen of some other sovereign nation) and are protected by laws that prevent me from being tortured, you might protest. And that would be true. Right up until when the government declares you a terrorist, which they can do to anyone at any time without probable cause and on the basis of “secret evidence” that may or may not exist thanks to the Patriot Act and similar provisions. By the way, please remember that the Clinton administration first proposed a scaled down version of the Patriot Act after the Oklahoma City bombing, and George W. Bush signed a greatly expanded version of it after September 11th. SoldierServant has the details here: The Bush – Clinton Dynasty courtesy of Pastor Chuck Baldwin, one of the few truth – telling preachers on political issues out there.

Consider this. Are you a Christian who believes that Jesus Christ is the only way to heaven, abortion is murder, homosexuality is a sin, unjust wars and oppressing the poor is wrong, gigantic welfare coercive states are evil, that a nation should have and defend borders, and that you have the right to own a firearm? Well, according to the Patriot Act, you are a terrorist. The groundwork is already being laid. I am no Mike Huckabee fan (quite the contrary, more of a Ron Paul guy for lack of better options),  but check out how Charles Krauthammer and so many other supposed conservatives that are allegedly friends of fundamentalist and evangelical Christians are trashing Huckabee for calling himself – gasp! – “a Christian leader.” And of course, you have tons of folks trashing Jeanne Assam, no doubt angry that the Colorado church shooter Matthew Murray was deprived of his chance to kill even more of us. So, how long will it take before things get to the point where Christians are getting the same treatment in America as they did in China not too long ago? Well, Christians, continue to defend things like waterboarding and you will be one of the people that helps it happen.

As with all else, it all comes back to the Bible. Christians, we are not to compartmentalize our faith. We are not to divide spiritual and secular. Instead, our faith should control every area of our lives and thought process so that we will not be conformed to the world or its ways (Romans 12:2). So, the question “Should a Christian support waterboarding” should be the same answer as “would you want it done to you?” The answer is Matthew 7:12: “Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.” That is called The Golden Rule, and please read an excellent exposition on it here: http://www.keyway.ca/htm2001/20010313.htm. So many Christians claim to believe in and love the Bible, but so few think that it actually has to be followed! (In fairness, though I am not a supporter of his, let me point out that one of the reasons why the establishment GOP opposes Mike Huckabee is because of his opposition to waterboarding. By the way, Mitt Romney supports torture. Hmmm ….)

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20 Responses to “Should Christians Support Waterboarding?”

  1. Yet folks are still wrapping themselves around his name and administration to make money and earn a name for themselves…

    Bill Bennett served as US Secretary of Education under Ronald Reagan. His using a Reagan slogan is fitting. I see no reason to mock it. Unlike Rudy Giuliani regarding Ed Meese, Bennett and Reagan were two who stood in agreement during Reagan’s Presidency. Trying to dig up what Reagan did when he was not so pro-life, before he realized better is not very fair. The judges Reagan put on were not put there as pro-abortion, you should study the history of that, Mark Levin’s book Men in Black: How the Supreme Court Is Destroying America would be a good place to start.

    …gave illegal immigrants amnesty and generally refused to enforce the border, and whose wife was a certified witch who contacted astrologers and necromancers

    Now you’re hitting firm with this. You should have mentioned old Ronnie consulted the astrologers too. Nobody ever talks about that any more.

    Yet why do social conservatives revere Reagan?

    He had more issues than either of us will mention, but give him some credit for what he did do, that did earn him some respect:
    – He did start the spending battle that crippled Russia
    – Do you remember the Berlin Wall?
    – He entered after Jimmy Carter straight wrecked the economy and any home loan was well into the unsavory part of double digit interest rates. Reagan lowered taxes and inflation went down as well as unemployment. Of course the bad of that is the deficit we still deal with today, but many who have purchased a home need to recognize that once upon a time that was a far more difficult proposition.

    Regarding some of the bad, you probably don’t know all of how Reagan gave terrorists inspiration, by putting troops in a Muslim nation and then pulling them without a firm hand against enemies. That is what helped inspire the orthodox Muslims (radicals) of today. (Would have been best to either never put the troops into Beirut at all, or since they were put there, to strike hard and firm after that bombing, not pull and run, it inspired the enemy. It is the root of why they felt they could start attacking America and getting away with it.) But Reagan did do something worth giving him credit for.

    In war I support being a warrior. I’m not seeing in my Bible where the church is given instructions on how to wage human physical war. Got no problem with waterboarding. I fully support a troop shooting an enemy in the knee to extract information if necessary and short for time before something occurs that might harm his fellow troops or innocent people. Basically, I never say I’m against torture to begin with. In war tools of war are used and if you’re against torture, please be a pure pacifist. The whole waterboarding debate is being stirred by people like Nancy Pelosi, WHO HAS KNOWN FOR A LONG TIME THAT IT WAS GOING ON AND SAID NOTHING TILL IT WAS POLITICALLY OPPORTUNE FOR HER PARTY AND NOW ACTS LIKE SHE DID NOT KNOW WHEN ASKED. She was briefed on it all since it started, but only cries about it now. I don’t know if you saw Tim Russert’s interview with her, but she knew and ducks it. She’s playing the media and public for fools. If the President were Democrat she’d still be supporting it and you’d never know it was even going on.

    If I’m captured by terrorist, I KNOW they are going to torture me. I have no problem advocating it for them and already realize it would be my fate if they captured me. Again, if you want to be against torture, you should be against all uses of violence. If you advocate violence to protect yourself, don’t be a hypocrite and say you’re against the use of violence (torture) to protect others.

    Regarding government, it’s Romans 13 and Rome cut Paul’s head off.

  2. Oh and when I say “pure pacifist”, that includes not calling the cops over with their guns when somebody breaks into your home. Don’t outsource the gunman responsibility when you know cops might hurt someone. If you want to be against violence, go the whole cow and don’t be a hypocrite.

  3. Now for all you who want to be pure pacifists, I’ll recommend you read Acts 18. Christians using violence, Paul didn’t stop it and the Lord even told Paul people would be there for him.

    We don’t use violence in aggression. We don’t use violence against government or outside of established government rules, but WE DO defend ourselves within government allowed guidelines. In debating those guidelines I don’t see either side as less saintly than the other. Because the rules Rome had that God had Christians to respect pale in comparison to what is being discussed.

  4. Job said

    Independent Conservative:

    I know about Reagan’s withdrawal of our troops. The fact that he was so willing to pull them out means that they never should have been over in the first place. We should not commit our troops except for wars, and we should not go to war unless we are willing to declare it as a war and then fight it to win it. Any mentality other than that just wastes lives on both sides, makes our allies think that they cannot trust us when the going really gets tough, makes our enemies believe that we are weak, and weakens the resolve and trust of the American people that we would badly need if a big fight does actually break out.

    I do not disagree with much of what you have written. Although I should point out that we signed the Geneva Convention of our own volition, so we should abide by it. If we wanted to be able to torture prisoners of war to get information out of people, then we should not have signed a document preventing us from doing it, with the result being that we either A) deny that torture is torture, B) deny that people are covered by the Geneva convention, and C) send low level servicemen who were just following orders to ten year prison terms. We also can withdraw from the Geneva Convention at any time. If the enemy is going to torture our troops anyway, what good does making us lawbreakers do?

    I am not a pure pacifist by the way. The Bible specifically tells us to resist evil, and that includes violence. I just honestly do not believe George W. Bush took us to war for any reason that had anything to do with opposing evil.

    As far as whether it is OK to torture people in a time of war … that is just going to have to be a theological disagreement because scripture does not directly deal with it.

  5. Peter said

    What happened to the simple idea of setting an example? Who cares if others rip off their prisoners’ heads (Daniel Pearl), or remove fingers, or burn faces, or electrocute extremities, or……….. What others do has no relevance here.

    Bottom line: As signatories to certain Conventions whose rules ultimately reflect a Judeo-Christian heritage, our honor and integrity is now engaged in abiding by certain norms that uphold precious values that have helped us in becoming the greatest country on Earth. Surely, we are strong today because we have been free and have held to the rule of law. We did not become free because we started out strong. In fact, we were hardly especially powerful at the start of our history at all. It seems clear that God smiled on us because we started out free and law-abiding, and it was by starting that way that we earned God’s favor and were granted growing strength through the decades and eventually centuries.

    A serious question here: do readers here feel that we grew strong because we were free, or are we somehow free because we were strong?

    This goes to the heart of what this country is all about.

    Sincerely,

    Peter

  6. johnkaniecki said

    Greetings,

    I am a pure pacifist. I have turned the other cheek several times, literally. Romans 13 covers a Christian using the law to protect himself. Look how Paul wisely pointed out the division between the Pharisees and Suaducees.

    If you are in favor of water boarding I ask only this. That before you make a decision you get your own sweet bottom on that board and experience it yourself.

    Love is the answer to every thing. God is Love.

    IC please spell out what you want to say in Acts 18. I read it real quick then a little slower and don’t see what you see as saying Christians shouldn’t be pacifists.

    Nice job Job.

    Love,

    John

    PS I haven’t forgotten my promise about being a pacifist Christian.

    Peter, I encourage you to speak, study and learn.

  7. Job,

    Although my comment was in response to your post, know that I was not trying to come at you in a “personal” way 🙂 . Just offering my thoughts on the matter.

    John, if you outsource your violence to government, you’re not a pure pacifist. You are resting on the hope government fights so you can pull a form of Pontius Pilate and wash your hands by saying “they did it, not me”. Then you can cherry pick actions that you supported or were against and still have the water on your hands from claiming you’re a pacifist. If you support government ever fighting on your behalf, you’re NOT a pure pacifist. Citing Romans 13 does not make you a pacifist, it makes you the opposite, because you endorse government being able to wage war. A “pure pacifist” does not ever endorse violence, never by anyone. You see John, the term “pacifist” is a secular term. Scripture notes instances of the use of force, even by saints.

    Regarding Acts 18, those saints were not pure pacifists (see verse 17) and as I mentioned:

    Christians using violence, Paul didn’t stop it and the Lord even told Paul people would be there for him.

    If you want to be a pure pacifist, I’m not against you. You can be and I respect your decision. But if you wish to brand yourself with the secular brand of “pure pacifism” don’t call the cops with guns to come possibly shoot somebody inside your home, that’s not pacifist. And you didn’t ask the cops to let you feel how it feels to get shot before you’d consider calling them over with guns if someone were in your home. So I feel no regret in support of the government using waterboarding if deemed appropriate.

    I’m not hung up on agreements made between nations that held to rules of combat. If the USA wishes to pull out of that agreement, fine with me, because the terrorists and their state sponsors never signed it.

  8. johnkaniecki said

    Dear IC,

    Hello and thanks for the reply.

    I see in Acts 18 that Paul kept his mouth shut.
    Perhaps I am not a pure pacifist because I don’t know the definition of one. I am non violent and a law abiding citizen and encourage the same in others.

    Let me state what I believe.

    1 Loving neighbours and enemies.
    2 Turning the other cheek.
    3 Allowing the government to enforce civil codes, laws and punishments. Romans 13
    4 That as a member of a free and democratic society that I can voice my opposition to the war or anay policy for that matter, in an open and public forum. (Please don’t attack free and democratic they are ideals we strive to attain.)

    If I saw a crime being committed would I call the police? Yes.

    If somebody punched me would I try to act non violently? Yes, even if it meant running away. I have done this once before a long time ago.

    Love,

    John

    At the end of World War 2 the Russians and the Allies were marching on the fragments of Nazi Germany. To whom did the Nazis surrender? To the Americans because they knew they were going to get better treatment. The moral high road has many advantages.

  9. And many Islamic terrorists are asking not to be removed from Club Gitmo.

    Some Gitmo Prisoners Don’t Want to Go Home

    I guess what Americans call “torture” really is not given what they fear could be done by others.

    Three Cheers for Waterboarding

    KSM, as intelligence agencies call him, directed the September 11 attacks, which killed 2,978 people and injured at least 7,356. “I am the head of the al-Qaeda military committee,” he told Al Jazeera in April 2002. “And yes, we did it.” KSM wired money to his nephew, Ramzi Yousef, who masterminded the February 1993 World Trade Center blast that killed six and wounded 1,040. KSM and Yousef planned Operation Bojinka, a foiled 1995 scheme to explode 12 American jetliners above the Pacific. While some doubt his claim, KSM reportedly said, “I decapitated with my blessed right hand the head of the American Jew Daniel Pearl in the City of Karachi, Pakistan.”

    After U.S. and Pakistani authorities captured KSM in March 2003, he stayed mum for months, often answering questions with Koranic chants. Interrogators eventually waterboarded him — for just 90 seconds.

    KSM “didn’t resist,” one CIA veteran said in the August 13 “New Yorker.” “He sang right away.” Another CIA official told ABC: “KSM lasted the longest under water-boarding, about a minute and a half, but once he broke, it never had to be used again.”

    KSM’s revelations helped authorities arrest at least six major terrorists:

    *Ohio-based trucker Iyman Faris pleaded guilty May 1, 2003 to providing material support to terrorists. He secured 2,000 sleeping bags for al-Qaeda and delivered cash, cell phones, and airline tickets to its men. He also conspired to derail a train near Washington, D.C. and use acetylene torches to sever the Brooklyn Bridge’s cables, plunging it into the East River.

    *Jemaah Islamiya (JI) agent Rusman “Gun Gun” Gunawan was convicted of transferring money to bomb Jakarta’s Marriott Hotel, killing 12 and injuring 150.

    *Hambali, Gunawan’s brother and ringleader of JI’s October 2002 Bali nightclub blasts, killed 202 and wounded 209.

    *Suspected al-Qaeda agent Majid Khan, officials say, provided money to JI terrorists and plotted to assassinate Pakistani president Pervez Musharraf, detonate U.S. gas stations, and poison American water reservoirs.

    *Jose Padilla, who trained with al-Qaeda in Afghanistan, was convicted last August of providing material support to terrorists and conspiring to kidnap, maim, and murder people overseas. Padilla, suspected of but not charged with planning a radioactive “dirty bomb” attack, reportedly learned to incinerate residential high-rises by igniting apartments filled with natural gas.

    *Malaysian Yazid Sufaat, an American-educated biochemist and JI member, reportedly provided hijackers Khalid al-Midhar and Nawaf al-Hazmi housing in Kuala Lumpur during a January 2000 9-11 planning summit. He also is suspected of employing “20th hijacker” Zacarias Moussaoui. “The 9-11 Commission Report” (page 151) states: “Sufaat would spend several months attempting to cultivate anthrax for al Qaeda in a laboratory he helped set up near the Kandahar airport.”

    Imagine how many innocent people these six Islamo-fascists (and perhaps others) would have murdered had interrogators left KSM unwaterboarded and his secrets unuttered.

    Though clearly uncomfortable, waterboarding loosens lips without causing permanent physical injuries (and unlikely even temporary ones). If terrorists suffer long-term nightmares about waterboarding, better that than more Americans crying themselves to sleep after their loved ones have been shredded by bombs or baked in skyscrapers.

    I read the following:
    Romans 13:4 (King James Version)

    4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.

    And I don’t see that waterboard any differently than a sword.

  10. Job said

    Independent Conservative:

    “And I don’t see that waterboard any differently than a sword.”

    A caveat, though. “For he is the minister of God to thee for good … for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God.” The context appears to be that the bearer of that sword is a minister or preacher of the gospel who uses it for the purposes of advancing that gospel.

    Apart from that fact, even, it remains that if we want to waterboard, then we have to pull out of the Geneva Convention. Otherwise, we are lawless. It is my opinion that it is because of these idiotic treaties that we can no longer officially declare war on anybody according to our own Constitution but instead have to engage in these “conflicts” like Korea, Viet Nam, the first Iraq War, Kosovo, and now the current Iraq and Afghanistan campaigns, etc. where the chief executive authorizes military action and Congress allows him to get away with it. The hilarious thing is that the antiwar left claims that the Iraq War was illegal because it was never authorized by the U.N. when the truth is that it is illegal by virtue of our own Constitution!

  11. Eden Hadassah said

    Wow…
    I had no idea that torture was needed to get a confession! Sorry, I am definately disturbed by this thread.
    Confession doesn’t make it true. It has been proven that torture does not bring about credible evidence.

    Here is a good video for all those thrilled by waterboarding…

    Maybe I will respond later, but, I am not sure.
    This grieves me to the core.

  12. Eden, waterboarding worked with KSM, see what I’ve quoted in this prior comment, please read it in full. I highly suspect the video you linked is fake. Reputable media sources have done plenty of stories about how its done. (Nobody reputable will touch the video you linked with a 20 foot pole, it’s fake.) It’s not comfortable and it’s not supposed to be.

    I’m not going to debate waterboarding any further, because either you are OK with it or you’re not and I don’t think anybody is going to convince the other of anything in that regard.

    I do want to address something though.
    Job mentioned:

    A caveat, though. “For he is the minister of God to thee for good … for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God.” The context appears to be that the bearer of that sword is a minister or preacher of the gospel who uses it for the purposes of advancing that gospel.

    For that passage of scripture you are not correct. Let me provide a few more verses for clarity.

    Romans 13:1-8 (King James Version)

    1 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.

    2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.

    3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:

    4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.

    5 Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake.

    6 For for this cause pay ye tribute also: for they are God’s ministers, attending continually upon this very thing.

    7 Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour.

    8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.

    Also please read 1 Peter 2:13-25

    This is like the use of the word “all” or “world”, in this case “minister” is not involving spreading the salvation message, but this “minister” called government is placed there by God. Notice, all powers were ordained by God, even Rome’s that later cut Paul’s head off, yes ordained by God. And you won’t see me calling Rome a beacon of morality. You know they did things that we would never consider today. It all works for God’s glory and God puts them there doing what they do. The term “sword” mentioned was not a figurative use of the term.

  13. Now I’m sure somebody might ask, well if government goes after evil and they cut Paul’s head off, how can this be? Paul had run the race and all set to receive his crown, 2 Timothy 4:7-8. God called Paul home. Certainly not to be confused with a government attacking evil.

  14. Job said

    Independent Conservative:

    All right then. You have demonstrated to me that you interpreted the scripture correctly. So what remains, then, is the application.

  15. Eden Hadassah said

    Yes, the film was a fake.
    I understand what you are saying, and yes God is ultimately in control. And yet, delighting or even agreeing with harming others to try and extract truth when they may be innocent in the first place, in my opinion, does not bring glory to God.
    What I am sure of is that God will always reveal the truth.
    Our media is excellent at spinning the truth, but God makes it clear.
    I don’t agree with waterboarding or any other types of torture.
    There are lots of things people are accused of, and are tortured only later to find out the information was false.
    Imagine if you were on a list at the airport, (lots of people are regardless of their race or religion) and they decided to take you in for “questioning”, but you weren’t telling them what they wanted you to tell them, so they take it to the next level. I don’t know too many people that would be comfortable with this type of treatment, and the whole time thinking, “Well this isn’t pleasant, but hey, it is for the good of the nation”.

    Now, I didn’t read all your posts, I am just giving my opinion. So forgive me. This topic of discussion hits a deep personal note, which I can not share or discuss with anyone.
    I will read your posts at a later time.

  16. johnkaniecki said

    Greetngs all,

    Romans 13 takes a back seat to the two greatest commands. Love God with all you got and Love your neighbour.

    Torture is not a way to extract useful information. If somebody wants to waterboard somebody I just would like them to go on the waterboard and experience it themselves. Then an intelligent, informed opinion could be made. ..

    As it is “Georgie” and the ‘gang’ are saying it’s cool. Georgie not only refused to piss in a cup but had many other benefits that it seems he is an aristocrat. In America we have no recognized nobility. Mr George Bush should get on the water board himself with a camera running to record his reaction. Then we could make an informed policy. I wouldn’t want to put Mr Dick Cheney on the water board as he might die of a heart attack.

    Eden,

    Take it to the Lord in prayer. He is there for you in your hour of need. I will pray for you. Thanks for your prayers.

    Love,

    John

  17. Job said

    johnkaniecki:

    “Romans 13 takes a back seat to the two greatest commands.” I kinda disagree there. I hold all scripture to be equal and to build upon and confirm each other. There are some instances where context is required of course, but that is about it. Instead, I see torturing someone for torture’s sake as wanton cruelty, which the Bible forbids even against animals! And torturing someone to extract information from them is an act of exerting unnatural coercive control over someone that is apart from the legitimate exercise of authority. I view unnatural coercion or control over someone as being akin to witchcraft. In that sense, it does not take a backseat to Romans 13, but rather is a violation of something that is called sin elsewhere in scripture.

    Using the Roman government as an example since it fits, during the persecution of the early church the Romans used torture to try to get Christians to recant. Now of course, using torture to force a terrorist to tell on his buddies that are planning on killing innocent women and children or even in a wartime situation where the fellow was captured on a battlefield and can be forced to provide information that can turn the battle and save lives is not the same as getting a Christian to blaspheme, because it is not coercing or suborning speech that is by nature sinful, and in that sense you are not sinning by causing the sin of someone else. But you are still coercing that person into doing something that he ordinarily would not do.

    Now the God of heaven was able to have Jonah sit in the belly of a whale for three days until Jonah submitted to His sovereign Will. And we have the power to coerce demon spirits to come out of people through the Name and Blood of Jesus Christ. But I am not aware of any instance where a righteous man coerced another human being in the Bible.

  18. johnkaniecki said

    Job,

    Hello and hope you are well. You are doing a great job and I commend you in all your efforts. It is truly a worthwhile and edifying endeavour.

    All scripture comes from inspiration of God. That we accept from the Word of God. Yet all scripture is not equal. If you took out the command not to gossip it would hurt less than the command to love your neighbour. Loving a neighbour includes not gossiping, witnessing, praying for others among many things I haven’t mentioned. The command not to gossip is just an elaboration and a further detail on the command to love one’s neighbour. If you loved your neighbour correctly you wouldn’t gossip. Yet love your neighbour means so much more than not gossiping.

    Think of the Word of God as a great musical with many parts to be played. The title of the work could be called “Doing God’s Will!!!” That title would contain every part.

    The two “greatest commands” are to Love God and neighbour. Jesus was asked the greatest command and He felt compelled to answer with two responses. Why? Because as the book of IJohn tells us that anyone who claims to Love God and not his brother is then a liar. You can’t Love God who is unseen and not love your neighbour who is right next to you. James touches on this as well. It’s wrong to say to a brother who is hungry, “You are starving I’ll pray for you.” No the correct response would be to feed that individual. Faith without deeds it death.

    If you go back to the symphony and remove a violin the symphony will suffer. If you remove all the string instruments it would be a disaster.

    I can give scriptures but I know you have a thorough knowledge of scriptures. When I answer questions like this you challenge me and sharpen my sword. I ask myself “Is what I said correct?” “Where is the scripture to back these thoughts up?”

    Love,

    John

  19. Job said

    johnkaniecki:

    You said: “The two “greatest commands” are to Love God and neighbour. Jesus was asked the greatest command and He felt compelled to answer with two responses.”

    Game, set, match, you win 🙂

  20. johnkaniecki said

    Job,

    It’s not a matter of winning to me. Let’s look at a practical example Harold Camping. I listened to this man for many nights. I found the questions asked to be fascinating. I would probably still be listening except that my wife Sylvia deplores the man.

    He has some knowledge but he is void of real compassion. Yet he is a representation of Christianity for millions.

    I know that you don’t like Martin Luther King. I know that you have valid Christian issues with the man. So do I. I don’t think his conjugating with prostitutes was a good thing. Yet the man inspired a generation. The man inspires me still.

    Someday we as a people will reach the promised land. We will pay the price of our tickets with blood, sweat and tears. (Ultimately the price is paid by Jesus’ blood but we will suffer just as Jesus did if we live Godly lives.) But we are on that bus together, a united family looking out for one another. We have squabbles and fights. My wife always says “teeth bit tongue”. Why? Because they are so close.

    I know you love the Lord. I know you dedicate a lot of time to this website. It gives Christians a forum to discuss matters. Its not a win or loose situation. The basic test is pass/fail. Either we get into heaven or not. Then the next judgement will be about rewards. Hey, if you get no bonus Job can hang out at my mansion all you want because your good in my book. Remember in the book of Revelation how the books of Life are opened. I have learned a lot through the association of Christians and non Christians on this blog.

    Love,

    John

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