Jesus Christ Is Lord

That every knee should bow and every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father!

I Have No Choice Left But To Join The Predestination Camp

Posted by Job on November 22, 2007

Update: though I am now TULIP, I will not take the chauvinistic attitudes against LILAC Christians as exhibited by things like this link: The “god” Of Arminianism and this: Free-Willism Preaches Another Jesus. Claiming that free will Christians aren’t going to heaven cannot be supported by honest interpretation of scripture. Thank you. 

I was raised in free will Christianity and had an entire worldview shaped around it that seemed quite logical to me. However, it is now based on that same logic that I must reject the doctrine of Jacobus Arminius with regards to the salvation of man. The tipping point for me was reading an excerpt of a letter from Pelagius, opponent of Augustine and Jerome, to Demetrias. In it, Pelagius, who espoused free will and denied the existence of original sin, asserted that God had given all men the strength to choose good or evil, and that it was our responsibility to use it. He did allow that said strength was somewhat limited, but that God knew that limitation for He knew how much strength He gave us. Still, God gave us sufficient strength to continuously exercise good over evil.

Keep in mind that this is a holy God who hates sin and loves His creation. So then, why then would this God not give us enough strength never to sin at all, knowing that the result would not only be the corruption that He hates but the damnation of His creation to eternal wrath? It it has to be because either He would not or that He could not. Go one way and God is not a God of love. Go another way and God is not all powerful. The result of either is having no God at all.

Also, consider that man does have the ability to choose salvation, even if this ability is not inherent in man but rather a gift of the same common grace that is available to all men. That, then place the responsibility on God to get men to accept salvation. To use a business analogy, God would then be the salesman, humanity would be the consumer, and Jesus Christ would be the product. If this is so, then that makes God the worst salesman in the history of the universe! Consider that fast food restaurants have no problem selling expensive unhealthy low quality food that any benefits derived from eating will disappear like chaff in a furnace (the negative health effects will last somewhat longer especially if you consume such “food” with any regularity) but God’s Son is available for free with immeasurable benefits that accrue over time and last an eternity.

And what are the consequences of passing up McDonald’s, Taco Bell, Kentucky Fried Chicken, or the Chinese food buffet? Missing a meal or having to “settle” for a sandwich made from whatever you can find in your refrigerator. (I suggest living with those consequences whenever possible.) But the consequences of passing up Jesus Christ is eternal wrath. So is our God so incompetent a salesman that He is unable to convince even an utter fool of the merits of His FREE merchandise? Considering not so much that the sovereign holy righteous God would never immolate and humiliate Himself before man in order to beg His acceptance in the first place, but this scenario requires believing that He would do such a thing only to be grotesquely incompetent at it.

Make no mistake, the existence of free will makes every the failure of each and every man that rejects God a failure of God … a failure due to some flaw, unrighteousness, or lack of knowledge in God that cannot be blamed on man. And this is very important in questions regarding the goodness or fairness of God. You may with your human judgment condemn God for being partial, arbitrary, and even cruel for refusing to save everyone. That is fine with me. The reason is that for me the existence of God is made self evident by virtue of creation. I find the existence of a God that may appear less than fair according to limited human understanding by refusing to save everyone preferable to that of a God that is clearly incompetent by any understanding that wants to save everyone but is not only incapable of accomplishing it, but moreover only succeeds in saving a small number! It appears that we are so often needful to believe in a God that is “fair” to suit our own purposes that that even a reasonably competent God – let alone the God of the Bible that is sovereign, holy, high and lifted up, righteous, loving, gracious, and powerful – gets rejected in the process.

So I am now forced to cease resisting the meaning of John 10:25-28Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father’s name, they bear witness of me. But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.”

Are you willing to accept the free gift of salvation? If so, please follow the Three Step Salvation Plan.

Advertisements

104 Responses to “I Have No Choice Left But To Join The Predestination Camp”

  1. Kyle said

    Hey Heath,

    Many of us if not almost all were there once. Once I really came to the understanding of predestination I was both glad and sorrowful at the same time. You don’t “really” get it regarding the sovereignty of God until you come to this conclusion. It puts God and man in their proper perspective. Also, you have a greater appreciation for your salvation when you recognize it.

    Since were on the subject let me give you my salvation experience to strengthen the predestination argument.

    When I was a teenager back in the Fall of 1994 I was driving my car as usual on this same highway as I always have done. At a certain moment I began to feel this overwhelming sensation to repent. I was shaking inside and felt a great deal of shame. I began asking the Lord to forgive me and needed him in my life. I repented. I started crying in shame. Moments later I felt a HUGE burden lifted off me and a rushing sensation through my body. I felt like the world had been lifted off my shoulders and suddenly tremendous joy and contentment came over me to the point where I had to pull my car off the side of the road, get out, and assess what happened to me. There was no guessing. I said I can’t believe I’ve been saved. I was forgiven that day and was written in the Lambs Book of Life.

    Heath, There was nothing I did. I didn’t go to a prayer service. I didn’t have people “lay” hands on me. I wasn’t raised in a protestant denomination (I was Catholic). I didn’t read the Bible.

    However, after that point I dedicated my life to Christ. And yes there were times when I back slid, and yes the journey is sometimes difficult even now, but the Lord was there every step of the way even chastising me when I needed it as any good Father would. My life has never been the same since that event.

    I didn’t have any say in the matter. I was happy being me. It was ONLY by God’s grace that I was saved apart from anything I could have done.

    Kyle

  2. Charles D. said

    The below premise deserves closer examination. Free moral agency given to man by God, places the responsibility of doomed men squarely on their shoulders. Furthermore, He (God) will that none should perish, but that all should come to repentance and the saving grace of our Lord Jesus, the Christ.

    “Make no mistake, the existence of free will makes every the failure of each and every man that rejects God a failure of God … a failure due to some flaw, unrighteousness, or lack of knowledge in God that cannot be blamed on man”

    We are often led astray when we get into issues that, in the final analysis, doesn’t really matter. Bottom line! There is at least one thing that Christ said He did not know: the exact end times. That was reserved for the Father. It is a good thing to have intellectual exchange and to seek enlightenment; even admirable. However, when we get into weighty issues, especialy those with the capacity to take on a life of it’s own, then, we’re not served very well. To say mothing about those who understand part, but not all of what is going on and the times in which we now live.

    What is important then? 1) God cannot fail 2) Christ died for the sins of those who are willing to accept His gift of eternal salvation 3) Everyone is not going to be saved 4) The victory is already won 5) There is no such thing as offending just a wee fraction of the law and 6) Those who take away from the Word of God, then, by so doing, by default, loses their part in the tree of life.

    When the mighty angel of God firmly plants one foot in the sea and the other on land, sound the trumpet, and announce that time as we know it will be no more…..it will be too late and all of anything else just will not matter.

    I’m happy,

    Charles

  3. Healtheland can you give me some more proof, from the Bible, in regards to predestination. I am still struggling with this.

  4. LorMarie said

    If predestination exists, then it would be God’s fault if people reject him. If the choice is left up to us, then ending up in hell would be no one’s fault but our own. Predestination releases man from the responsibility of choosing God over sin. If you go the predestination route, who is to say that you are not predestined to reject all that you believe now and end up in hell?

  5. micey said

    there are scriptures in the Bible that support both predestination and free will… since they are both in the Bible, they must both be true and since Isaiah 55:8-9 says

    8 “For my thoughts are not your thoughts,
    neither are your ways my ways,”
    declares the LORD.
    9 “As the heavens are higher than the earth,
    so are my ways higher than your ways
    and my thoughts than your thoughts.

    i think it is safe to assume we just can’t know everything there is to know about God, apart from what is in His word and to argue about these things is just foolish…

  6. Coram Deo said

    HTL,

    My spiritual journey to embracing reformed theology is similar to yours, in fact as Kyle stated in his first comment nearly everyone I’ve met who holds to the gospel of grace has traversed the barren, desolate doctrinal landscape of the semi-pelagian church to arrive at the amazing truth of divine election.

    I’d like to encourage you to continue praying on this matter and immersing yourself in God’s Word. You’re going to see scripture in a whole new light when you approach it from the Reformed perspective and God’s glory and grace are going to fill your heart and mind with His Great mercy, pity and love toward His people.

    Additionally I’d like to point you toward some resources which have been of no small encouragement to me as the Lord has opened my eyes to His truth:

    Internet Resources:

    Mike Ratliff’s Possessing the Treasure I highly recommend Mike’s site as a thorough and godly treasure trove of God’s amazing doctrines of grace. I can assure you that time at his blog is time well spent.

    Strange Baptist Fire

    Old Truth

    Pastor Bob DeWaay’s Critical Issues Commentary

    Bible Bulletin Board

    Written Resources:

    I pray that you’ll purchase and read John MacArthur’s The Gospel According to Jesus. This is a must-have primer on the believer’s relationship to our Infinite Creator and Judge as seen through eyes of grace.

    Secondly, and because I perceive that you have the gift of discernment and apologetics I personally recommend that you read Greg Bahnsen’s Christ-centered tips for defending the faith entitled Always Ready: Directions for Defending the Faith.

    Above all be aware that you’ll draw the ire of those closest to you including friends, family and church family. When you identify with the doctrines of grace you’ll be quickly branded as a “Calvinist” and many will treat you as though you’ve lost your mind, or have become some sort of spiritual pariah.

    This is to be taken as but further evidence of the truth of the doctrines of God’s grace.

    Keep fighting the good fight of faith brother, and take courage in what the Holy Spirit is doing in your life!

    And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. (Matthew 16:17)

  7. Coram Deo said

    LouMarie said:
    If predestination exists, then it would be God’s fault if people reject him. If the choice is left up to us, then ending up in hell would be no one’s fault but our own. Predestination releases man from the responsibility of choosing God over sin. If you go the predestination route, who is to say that you are not predestined to reject all that you believe now and end up in hell?

    LouMarie,

    I pray that you’ll take a few moments to do two little things that may change your spiritual life. If I may be so bold I’d like to ask you to take your Bible and prayerfully read through Romans 9 (it’s a fairly short read) and then afterward go and read this short post entitled Does God’s Sovereign Election of His People Make Us Mere Puppets on a String?.

    Romans 9 and the article linked above both speak directly to the very concern you’ve expressed, and trust me when I tell you that I don’t know of a sincere believer in the doctrines of grace that hasn’t struggled with this exact issue as they approached the Biblical study of sovereign election and predestination.

    And though I don’t know you I’ve also prayed that the Lord Himself might answer your very reasonable questions through His Word and by His Holy Spirit.

    In Christ,
    CD

  8. djenk23 said

    I think I have to agree with Charles D and Micey….there is support for both in the Bible….so how can I pick one side vs the other?…ill admit that looking at both sides of the issue has benefited me….but my primary concern is finishing my course ala Paul…

  9. LorMarie said

    Coram,

    My last question was a simple case of wit and sarcasm as I already know the answer to it. I’ve read Romans 9 and there is nothing there to indicate that God predestined some people for hell and others for heaven. Just look verses 30-33. That appears to be the conclusion of the theme of the chapter (again, saying nothing about some being destined for hell and others for heaven). People in this thread are claiming that there is evidence for free will and predestination. If so, that is a problem because the concepts or at odds with each other. Or is it our perception that creates the problem?

  10. Coram Deo said

    LorMarie,

    The way I understand the scriptures every unregenerate (non-Christian) human being in the world is on a one way trajectory to hell because they are judged guilty in sin and trespass against God’s perfect law. This is basic, orthodox, Christian teaching. Furthermore the scriptures teach that this judgment is both fair and just since God is our Infinite Creator and Judge and because He is perfect in every sense of the word He cannot be “unfair” in any way. We are separated from our Heavenly Father by our earthly father Adam’s sin. This condition, our fallen sinful nature, is as natural and inescapable for human beings as breathing air.

    From where I stand I don’t see the problem you’re referring to between free will and predestination. The Bible clearly teaches that God sovereignly chooses some people to be regenerated from death unto life by being miraculously “born-again” of the Spirit. This translation from spiritual death unto spiritual life isn’t something that sinful man is capable of doing or even participating in. Nor is it something that God needs sinful man’s cooperation in doing since the scriptures teach that He will not share His glory with another and that salvation is the gift of God – by God’s grace alone – lest any man should boast.

    Lazareth had no choice about coming forth when Jesus called him, just as the unredeemed, dead in their trespass and sins have no choice but to come forth from spiritual death unto spiritual life when the Holy Spirit calls. Dead men can’t do anything for themselves. People aren’t spiritually sickened, or very weak, they’re spiritually D-E-A-D. This is what the Bible teaches again and again.

    Sinful men aren’t drifting in the middle of the ocean of sin drowning, gasping with their last breath for salvation when Christ miraculously appears on a boat, throwing them a life preserver so that all they need to do is grasp the preserver with their fingers as the rest of their body sinks beneath the waves as Christ pulls them to the safety of salvation (the boat). Nor are sinful men dying of some deadly disease (sin) for which there is no known cure, when suddenly Christ the Great Physician appears and pours the cure (salvation) into their mouth so that all they need to do is swallow His medicine (the good news) to be cured and made whole.

    No, sinful men are stone cold dead at the bottom of the ocean of sin and Christ dives in, swims to the bottom and collects their lifeless corpse breathing life into them, miraculously and gloriously translating them from death unto life.

    Again sinful men are DOA on the hospital bed struck down by their incurable disease when Christ the Great Physician walks into the room and commands them live, and they rise from the dead rejoicing and praising Him!

    This is the miracle working power of our God! All the glory goes to Him, there’s none for us. Those who are born again didn’t simply choose better than other people, nor are they smarter, holier or better. No, God doesn’t foresee some merit that was in, or would be in their lives, instead He sovereignly chooses those who will be saved for His own purposes and for His own glory alone and not for anything He sees in men since He is no respecter of persons.

    Yet in the mystery of God we find that He is both able to miraculously regenerate those who are called by His Name (predestination) and sovereignly cause them to come to Him of their own free will. The Bible teaches that no one can come unto God except he is bidden by God:

    All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him. (Matthew 11:27)

    And we know that it is impossible for Christ to have died in vain for the millions – billions? – of unredeemed who are going to be lost and burn in hell forever since the Bible teaches that His atonement was fully effectual for those who would be saved. You see, I believe that Christ died for those who will go to heaven and that He was and is a fully victorious conqueror for His people, His specific people, i.e. His bride. His bride are those within the true Christian church, the church invisible which is comprised of all those who have been truly born-again. Because I believe the Bible 100% I believe that Christ’s atonement was 100% effectual meaning that if Jesus died for a person, that person’s sins must certainly be forgiven because He paid that sin debt personally with His blood. So clearly Christ’s atonement was limited to those for whom He had in mind when He shed His blood on Calvary. If He died for everyone, then everyone must be saved and we’re left with the heresy of Universalism which negates all teaching of hell and denies the revelation of scripture. Therefore we can know with certainty that Universalism isn’t the case, so what’s left?

    The only other option left is to believe that Christ died for everyone in general and no one in particular meaning that his death was less than 100% successful and effective. This also irreducibly leads to the belief that Christ’s suffering and death fails to accomplish the forgiveness of most of those “people in general” for whom He supposedly died. In other words it means that Christ paid the sin debt for people who are going to end up in hell. To me that’s deeply insulting to God’s character because it would mean that He is being totally and completely unfair to all those people for whom Christ died, and who’s sins must therefore be remitted, but for some perverse reason aren’t. The only explanation now remaining along this line of reasoning is that Christ’s sacrifice wasn’t complete but needs the agency of man to somehow “finish” the finished work of the cross by “making a decision” for Him which results in salvation. Sadly this reasoning adds human works into the equation of salvation by grace alone and is wholly unbiblical.

    As I said, the Reformed view has no problem with free will since we are God’s creatures and He can do as He pleases with us, but the other viewpoint has a problem with election/predestination because they are convinced of man’s agency in the process of salvation and thus will often quickly, and incorrectly, assume that God is somehow being unfair by choosing certain people to join Him in heaven while not choosing others. God is not unfair, people are unfair. God is true and we are liars. God is just and we are unjust. He is worthy and we are unworthy. Let everything that has breath praise the Lord!

    In closing God doesn’t need to “choose who will to go to hell”. As previously mentioned everyone is already judged guilty and will go to hell apart from the merciful intervention of a loving and perfect God. In fact according to the Bible everyone deserves hell and no one deserves heaven! So then the question ought to be: “If everyone deserves hell, then why would anyone get to go to heaven?” And the unspeakably wonderful answer is that it’s because of God’s mercy and unmerited grace alone toward those who will become His heavenly bride! Is it okay for Christ to choose His own bride? Of course it is!

    I hope this helps.

    Sola Dei Gloria!

  11. micey said

    i disagree… there is scripture that supports both free will and predestination… if this is true and the only way a person can be saved is for God to choose those to be saved, then why the great commission? the Bible clearly states that Jesus is the Lamb of God, come to take away the sins of the world! it doesn’t say Jesus is the Lamb of God, come to take away the sins of the ones He’s chosen… besides, adam and eve were created in perfection and eve chose to disobey the will of God… free will… it is by faith we are saved… faith is a free will choice… i don’t understand how, but i know that it is more than just predestination… if it is just about predestination, then i see no point in spreading the Gospel, because there is nothing we can do for the Lord because He’s already decided who will be chosen… which leads me right back to why the great commission?

  12. Coram Deo said

    Micey,

    Great question, and one that deserves a solid, Biblical response. I’d like to point you to others who can explain much better than I.

    Please read The Sovereignty of God and Prayer, and as an additional resource I’d point you to the link I left for LorMarie in a previous comment.

    The position one takes on this very important issues directly affects our entire spiritual worldview and it’s impossible not to take a position.

    In Christ,
    CD

  13. HannahJ said

    Micey said: “there are scriptures in the Bible that support both predestination and free will… since they are both in the Bible, they must both be true…”

    As a Lutheran, the big issue I have with predestination–or, as we call it, double predestination–is why God would choose some to go to hell and some to go to heaven. My answer: Look at Ephesians 1 and all the other passages about predestination. What’s the context? They apply to those who are already saved/believers. Check it out.

    Sola gratia, sola fides, sola Scriptura = solus Christus

  14. Coram Deo said

    Micey said:
    it is by faith we are saved

    Men are saved by grace, not by faith (re-read Eph. 2:5) The grace of God is the fountain-head of our salvation. Because God is gracious sinful men are forgiven, converted, purified and saved. And this is not for anything that’s in them or that can ever be in them, but because of the boundless love, goodness, pity, compassion, mercy and grace of God.

    Jesus said “No man cometh unto me except the Father which hath sent me draw him”. This proves that faith, which is coming to Christ, is the result of divine drawing. Grace is the first and the last cause of salvation and faith, though essential, is only a part of grace.

    Again faith is only a channel of grace, not the source of grace. Men should never look so much to faith as to exalt it above the divine source of all blessing which lies in the grace of God.

    It is true to say that by faith all things become possible to us, yet the power is not in the faith, but in the God upon whom faith relies. The righteousness of faith isn’t the moral excellence of faith, but the righteousness of Jesus Christ which faith grasps and appropriates. The peace within our soul isn’t derived from the contemplation of our faith, but it comes to us from Him who is our peace, and virtue comes out of Him into our soul by the conduit of faith.

    Think more of HIM to whom you look than of the look itself. You must look away even from your own looking, and see nothing but Jesus, and the grace of God revealed in Him.

    May we never make a Christ out of our faith as if it were the independent source of our salvation! Our life is found in looking unto Jesus, not in looking to our faith.

    I believe it’s only by the drawing of the Holy Spirit that men and women even begin to consider the things being discussed herein, so take heart and prayerfully seek the Lord and ask Him if such things be so asking Him to reveal it to you by His Holy Word! He’ll never turn away those He’s drawing near!

  15. micey said

    i apologize… i did mean it is by grace we are saved…

    Ephesians 2:8
    For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—

    thank you for the article, it did help me a lot to understand this view… i still wonder what your stance is on free will though? for example, i was saved 2 years ago at the age of 42, but long before i was saved, i was drawn to God several times… i can look back on my life and tell you of the times i feel like He was knocking on my heart, but i willfully ignored Him… can you explain this to me? is it possible that i was saved when i was a child and have no memory of being saved? and then walking away from Him as a prodigal? because I sincerely felt like a prodigal and I can even tell you the day I told the Lord to go away… is it possible i have been saved most of my life but in my childhood didn’t fully understand the commitment? or did I feel God knocking because I was predestined?

  16. Coram Deo said

    Micey,

    I have much to say to you, but there’s really no way for me to offer an adequate response to such a far reaching and earnest question is this forum, however I can point you to a resource that will help make sense of the feelings you’ve described.

    It’s a bit of a long read, but I highly recommend that you take the time to prayerfully consider All of Grace by C.H. Spurgeon. In fact whole portions of my prior comment were taken in part or in whole from this little tome. Spurgeon is one of my favorite dead theologians.

    All of Grace is about 126 pages long when purchased as a book, but I’m not sure how this will compare in length to the online resource I’ve linked above. Either way I can tell you in the Lord that you’ll find it time well spent.

    As I mentioned in a prior comment the Reformed view which I share has no problem with free will because it’s viewed as a mystery and a miracle wrought by an Ultimate and Sovereign God which causes ungodly sinners dead in trespass and sin to be regenerated and translated from spiritual death unto spiritual life and drawn to approach and apprehend Christ by their free will. I don’t know what to say except that this truth brings much glory to God.

    On the other hand the free willers seem to have a problem with election because it makes man utterly helpless (which he is) apart from the sovereign intervention of God and that fact always rubs our sinful sense of self-righteousness the wrong way.

    We want to play some part, some little role, to “cooperate” somehow with God in our own salvation, yet He will have none of it! The salvation of sinners is according to His will and to His glory alone! It’s ALL OF GRACE!

  17. LorMarie said

    Coram,

    No help is needed since I went over this issue before. Respectfully, you made many huge leaps in your reply. I.E. you automatically connected universalism with the concept of free will and there is no comparison. Christian universalism (as they label themselves regardless of how we feel about that term) implies that all people will be saved no matter what they believe. Free will implies that it is up to the individual to accept God’s offer of salvation or reject it. Free will has nothing to do with man boasting or taking the credit for being saved. No matter how you slice it, God wants everybody to be saved:
    2 Peter 3 (King James Version)
    9The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

    Note, the verse doesn’t say that God is willing that some should repent, but that all should repent. Nothing in the bible says that Christ died for some (as you claim). Here is your comment:
    You see, I believe that Christ died for those who will go to heaven

    I’m going to leave it at this: reread what you just typed there. Do you see that the statement is a blatant contradiction (although likely unintended on your part) to quite a few passages of scripture concerning salvation? I say this with the utmost humbleness (realizing that I don’t get everything right all the time). But the contradiction is very obvious. I’ll leave it up to God to give you the understanding.

  18. micey said

    thank you coram… i certainly will read this book and appreciate your answers… they have made a lot of sense to me… God bless you!

  19. Coram Deo said

    LorMarie said:No matter how you slice it, God wants everybody to be saved:

    So you’re taking the position that God is not sovereign? After all you’ve agreed that everyone won’t be saved (i.e. Universalism), so this necessarily means that God Almighty is unable to fulfill His own will? Wouldn’t that fact alone make Him not Almighty? If God isn’t supreme and sovereign in salvation that leaves man as the sovereign agent of his own salvation based upon his “choice”. In the view you’ve espoused God’s will is subject man’s choice – God is a reactionary to man – the clay becomes the potter!

    You might want to re-think your position because you’re on the edge of a really precarious theological precipice.

    Coram Deo said:You see, I believe that Christ died for those who will go to heaven

    Do you not believe and agree that Christ died for those who will go to heaven? Who else would He have died for? For those who are going to hell? In this case once again God is a failure since He died for people He was unable to save, and His blood is actually ineffectual for the salvation of those for whom it was intended (the lost who will go to hell).

    Yet beyond all this I want to thank you for giving me the opportunity to share an exegesis of 2 Peter 3:9 since properly understood it’s one of the strongest verses in favor of the glorious Biblical doctrine of election! I hope this helps:

    Courtesy of John Samson of Reformation Theology

    Without doubt, 2 Peter 3:9 is the single most popular verse used to dismiss the reformed doctrine of election, bar none. Usually the meaning of the verse is assumed without taking any time to study it, which is the very hallmark of tradition. In fact, traditions are so strong that many do not even see the need to study the verse because they believe there is no need to do so. I have to admit that I did this for many years. Those most enslaved to their traditions are those who believe they do not have any. First of all then, let us read the verse in its context:

    2 Peter 3:1-9 – This is now the second letter that I am writing to you, beloved. In both of them I am stirring up your sincere mind by way of reminder, that you should remember the predictions of the holy prophets and the commandment of the Lord and Savior through your apostles, knowing this first of all, that scoffers will come in the last days with scoffing, following their own sinful desires. They will say, “Where is the promise of his coming? For ever since the fathers fell asleep, all things are continuing as they were from the beginning of creation.” For they deliberately overlook this fact, that the heavens existed long ago, and the earth was formed out of water and through water by the word of God, and that by means of these the world that then existed was deluged with water and perished. But by the same word the heavens and earth that now exist are stored up for fire, being kept until the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly. But do not overlook this one fact, beloved, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.

    The first thing we notice is that the subject of the passage is not salvation but the second coming of Christ. Peter is explaining the reason for the delay in Christ’s second coming – He is still coming, and will come unexpectedly, like a thief in the night (v. 10).

    The second thing to notice is the clear identity of the people he is addressing. He speaks of the mockers as “they”, but everywhere else he speaks to his audience as “you” and the “beloved.” This is very important because the assumption that is usually made is that the “you” the “any” and the “all” of 2 Peter 3:9 refers to everyone on the planet.

    But surely “all” means “all,” right? Well usually, yes, but not always. This has to be determined by the context in which the words are found. For example, when a teacher is getting ready to start a class and asks his students, “Are all here?” he is not asking if every last living person on planet earth is present in the room. Rather he is referring to all the students enrolled in the class. It is context that provides the basis for a sound interpretation.

    So, the question in 2 Peter 3:9 is whether “all” refers to all human beings without distinction, or whether it refers to everyone within a certain group. The context indicates that Peter is writing to a specific group and not to all of mankind – “to those who have obtained a faith of equal standing with ours” 2 Peter 1:1. The audience is confirmed when Peter writes, “This is now the second letter that I am writing to you, beloved.” (2 Peter 3:1)

    Can we be even more specific? Yes, because if this is the second letter addressed to them, the first makes it clear who he is writing to. 1 Peter 1:1 – “Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who are elect…” So Peter is writing to the elect in 2 Peter 3, saying:

    “This is now the second letter that I am writing to you, beloved….But do not overlook this one fact, beloved, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.” (v. 1, 8, 9 – emphasis mine)

    If the “any” or “all” here refers to everyone in human history, the verse would prove far more than Arminians would want to prove – it would prove universalism rather than Christianity. (Universalism is the false doctrine that teaches that everyone will ultimately be saved, with no one going to hell). If God is not willing that any person perish, then what? No one would ever perish! Yet, in context, the “any” that God wills not to perish must be limited to the same group he is writing to, the elect, and the “all” that are to come to repentance is the very same group. Christ’s second coming has been delayed so that all the elect can be gathered in. God is not willing that any of the elect should perish, but that all of them come to repentance.

    Rather than denying election, understood in its biblical context, it is one of the strongest verses in favor of it.

  20. micey said

    try reading this :

    Calvinism vs Arminianism

  21. Coram Deo said

    Micey,

    I read the article you linked and while I clearly understand what that congregation and pastor are trying to do in the light of inspired scripture I don’t agree with the position they’ve articulated.

    This is because they’re trying to equalize two different doctrines, the Biblical Christ-centered doctrines of grace and the unbiblical man-centered doctrines of semi-pelagiansim. In essence what they’re saying is we can’t really know the truth for sure, so let’s just all get along! That’s an unacceptable compromise.

    Consider the following discussion on doctrine by Pastor John Samson:

    “Doctrine divides!” That’s the popular belief of our culture today, as its sails on the shifting sea of modern day relativism. Our generation shouts out, “It doesn’t matter what you believe, as long as you are sincere,” yet the Bible portrays a very different message.

    We have to admit that doctrine does in fact divide. It divides truth from error, the true prophet from the false prophet, and the real Christ from the counterfeit.

    Some say “all I want is a relationship with God” not some dead creed or theology. I am all for knowing God intimately, but we need to know the difference between the real God and the many false ones. If someone wants to know Jesus, they first need to make clear which “Jesus” they are referring to: the “Jesus” of the Latter Day Saints (Mormons) who is the spirit brother of Lucifer, the result of God the Father’s sexual union with Mary?; or perhaps the “Jesus” of the Watchtower organization (Jehovah’s Witnesses) who is a created though highly elevated god?; or perhaps the “Jesus” of Islam who was never the Son of God but merely a highly esteemed prophet, who was whisked away from the cross and never suffered death? Exactly which Jesus – for there are many out there?

    You can continue reading here.

  22. micey said

    again i disagree… how can you be for one side of the issue or the other when they can BOTH be clearly supported in scripture? to pick one side is to ignore the scripture of the other and vice versa… i certainly don’t believe there is anything i can do to be saved, but i also don’t believe i have no free will… if i had no free will, i would be a perfect person because I would be able to live by every commandment of God and never sin again, because that is my desire…
    all this serves to keep us going around in circles which the Bible also clearly says we shouldn’t do… thank you for all your time…

  23. Charles D. said

    Wow are we getting into left field over things that really do not matter. I am stuck on a point made above, i.e.,

    1. “No matter how you slice it, God wants everybody to be saved:” Then the writer followed by saying: 2″So you’re taking the position that God is not sovereign?”

    Okay, how does saying or believing the comment at 1) equate to comment at 2). It doesn’t not! Period! Then adding all of the label “universalist” and other’s with a negative connotation looses the original point that you’re attempimg to make.

    I stand firmly by my comment at #2, especially, paragraph 3. Let’s not confuse each other. Our God is not a God of confusion.

    In Christ

    Charles

  24. micey said

    and one other thing about the link i posted… they are NOT saying we can’t really know the truth so lets all just get along… they are saying that both positions have truth and both positions don’t… and you have every right to disagree with my position as i have every right to disagree with your position… =]

  25. Charles D. said

    In a word: #2 means my comment in the second position, not the 2) in the above post.

    Micey stick to your guns. You are not wrong in your statements of belief. Therefore, it makes no sense to chase all over the net trying to prove your self wrong. Pray about it, listen to the Lord, then, step out boldly!!!

    Charles

  26. Coram Deo said

    micey Says:
    November 24, 2007 at 12:37 am
    again i disagree… how can you be for one side of the issue or the other when they can BOTH be clearly supported in scripture? to pick one side is to ignore the scripture of the other and vice versa… i certainly don’t believe there is anything i can do to be saved, but i also don’t believe i have no free will… if i had no free will, i would be a perfect person because I would be able to live by every commandment of God and never sin again, because that is my desire…
    all this serves to keep us going around in circles which the Bible also clearly says we shouldn’t do… thank you for all your time

    Micey,

    If you would kindly review my prior comments here you’ll see that I’ve not denied that free will exists, on the contrary I’ve clearly stated that the Biblical concept free will can only be properly understood in the light of the doctrines of grace. It’s important that we clarify our terms because people often mean different things, or interpret different meanings based on their own presuppositions. For example, the doctrine of free will that’s usually being espoused – like in the link you provided – is a doctrine based on semi-pelagianism which erroneously teaches – among other things – that fallen, ungodly, sinful man has the moral ability to choose to be saved. Carefully note that if this is true then by default we credit some portion of salvation, no matter how small, to man’s “decision for Christ” made by the moral agent man (i.e. salvation by works). This is a wholly unbiblical concept. Men don’t choose God, God chooses men and to teach otherwise, I believe, is to strip Christ of His unique glory and to trample His shed blood underfoot. Generally speaking I don’t think most Christian people realize or appreciate just how pervasive our sin nature really is. Mankind isn’t just weakened, or sickened by sin, we’re dead in sin. It owns the unredeemed mind, body, and soul meaning every area of the sinner’s life is controlled by sin, including our reasoning ability through which all information about the outside world is processed. Only God can save us from this terrible condition of spiritual death. The dead can’t do much to help themselves, can they?

    It’s only in the light of the Biblical doctrines of grace we can truly understand the Biblical concept of free will, even though it’s mystery and a miracle how our sovereign God causes His elect to come to Him by their own free will. Suffice it to say that the Bible does not support the typical free willer’s contention that man actually desires to choose God but is muddled by sin, however given enough “correct information” or “evidence” man can be intellectually/morally/spiritually endowed and properly equipped to make a decision for salvation.

    Salvation is of God alone through grace alone by faith alone and sinful ungodly man has no cooperative role to play within God’s sovereign plan of divine election unto salvation. God requires obedience and those who are saved, true born-again Christians, will be empowered by God to obedience which will thereby produce the good works the Bible says we were called into. Do you see how everything flows from Him to us? This is God-centeredness. The truly regenerate (saved) are enabled and empowered by God’s Holy Spirit to understand His Word, desire fellowship with Him, to worship Him in spirit and in truth, and to obey Him. The unregenerate are NEVER empowered or able to do these things, nor does the natural man even desire to do these things. Sure they may want to play church and tinker in a system of works-righteousness that is man-centered and man-exalting. Sure they may drizzle a little Jesus on top and sprinkle in some Bible verses, but those who play these games have believed another gospel and their hearts are not right with God.

    Sovereign election is what the Bible teaches in so many places it’s hard to list them all. You might want to listen to this sermon by Pastor John MacArthur. It’s about 51 minutes long but maybe it will help to explain what I’m apparently doing a very poor job of explaining.

    In Christ
    CD

  27. Coram Deo said

    Charles D. said: 1. “No matter how you slice it, God wants everybody to be saved:” Then the writer followed by saying: 2″So you’re taking the position that God is not sovereign?”

    Okay, how does saying or believing the comment at 1) equate to comment at 2). It doesn’t not! Period! Then adding all of the label “universalist” and other’s with a negative connotation looses the original point that you’re attempimg to make.

    Charles D., I don’t see how you arrive at any other conclusion. If God wants everyone to be saved then they would be saved and you’d have universal salvation (“Universalism”) because the Almighty God of the Holy Bible is a sovereign God. However if God wants everyone to be saved, but yet they are not saved, then He is not a sovereign God after all because His will can be thwarted by something outside of Himself.

    What kind of God can be simultaneously be a sovereign God, but be unable to fulfill His own will? To me that’s an absurdity and it’s not the Almighty God of the Holy Bible.

    God wills the elect to be saved and therefore they are saved. I hope this helps.

  28. Eden Hadassah said

    I guess free will doesn’t exist then does it? God’s will is that all be saved, but there are many things that set him apart from all idols man made, that says worship me or else. His desire is that of a true Husband seeking to love his wife. Would you marry someone who willfully hates you? This is beautifully illustrated in the book of Hosea.
    Our creator longs to be reconciled to us, and has created a way through his son Yeshua. Although he ultimately knows who will follow him and accept his son, it is his mercy and his grace that allows the wicked to flourish and not die. (I am NOT saying that God makes them wicked, but that God does bless their lives with many things to show his mercy and grace to them. It is an act of love). In the end, he will not be maligned with the notion that the wicked were not given the chance to come to him and repent, and so be saved. He knows their outcome, and that they will not come, yet he will pour out his mercy upon them in this life. As for the life to come, if they will not repent, they will not inherit eternal life.
    Not everyone will be saved, but that is known by God alone. Our job is to preach the good news that Yeshua came and provided a way for us to be reconciled to our Heavenly Father.
    Ultimately it is God who will be praised for his free gift of salvation. Not man.
    He is in control. We know that from the prophets, that they were set apart from birth by God. They were chosen, some from the time they were in their mother’s belly. But even they had to choose. The angels chose to loose their positions in heaven. Even they had free will. He is fully in control, and knows who will obey and follow him, and who will not. But he still gives them all their lives to repent and to come back to him. I praise him even more for this. That his love does not just extend to those who love him, but it is even poured out upon those who reject him, so that no man at the end of his life can say that they were never afforded the chance to know him.

  29. Charles D. said

    Coram Deo: It was ahrd for me to tell if your comment at #26 was directed to me or Micey. You clearly directed to me and I receive it gratefully. I am in the midst of a project at this moment, however, I certainly intend to get back with you before the end of the day because I think you are in error in a multipicity of ways.

    You impress me as someone that can understand in light of proper evidence and that you are neither “over-blown,” and are not trying to impress anyone with the fact that you can turn a phrase.

    That said, there is one small thing I hope we can accomplish: If you are going to sign CD, then, I will change to :the Old One” so as to preclude confusion. The basis for this is I read another of your posts and until I reached a portion that we disagreed on, I thought it was an older post that I had written. Anyway, no biggie.

    In Christ,

    Charles

  30. Coram Deo said

    Eden,

    Would you say that you’re born-again?

    I don’t know why anyone would think free will doesn’t exist. I believe free will exists because the Bible says it does, and because the Bible is God’s authoritative inscripturated revelation to man it is ultimate authority in all matters. Furthermore as I’ve previously stated free will can only be Biblically understood in the light of the doctrine of our Heavenly Father’s merciful divine election as described in scripture.

    I also agree that God loves His creation. God is love! And we can see His divine love demonstrated in the common grace He pours out to all men, just as you’ve alluded to in your comment.

    He causes the sun to shine and the rain to fall on the just and the unjust alike. He allows the wicked to enjoy His beautiful creation and all its wonder and even to enjoy the range of human emotions. Yet God’s common grace is not to be confused with God’s saving grace which is reserved for His special people – the elect of God – whom He predestined before the foundations of the world.

    Jesus Christ, the Son of God, certainly came to be the reconciliation between God and man through his vicarious penal substitution on the cross (the atonement), on this point all Christians must agree.

    Furthermore those who are called by His name are certainly commanded to go forth and preach the Gospel to every creature under heaven since as you’ve correctly stated we don’t know who will be saved, only God knows so we preach it to everyone.

    We also know that God will certainly redeem some from every “tribe, tongue, people, and nation”. By these truths we can see that through Jesus Christ God will certainly be reconciled to those whom He has predestined to be His bride, (i.e. the elect of God).

    I’m curious about your use of the name “Yeshua”. I assume that you are referring to the Christ of scripture but I’d like to let it be known that not once in the original Hebrew Old Testament is the name “Yeshua” mentioned! Not once is the name “Yeshua” mentioned in the original texts of the New Testament, because no one spoke Hebrew. Paul wrote and spoke in Greek, and so did Peter and the others.

    Those who are interested can read more on the common misuse of the name Yeshua here:
    Simple Facts on Bible Translations

    And here:
    A Demonic Yeshua in the “Gentile/Hebrew” Cults

    It’s important to test the spirits in these matters because as can be seen in the links above there are dangerous cultic movements which use the name Yeshua in order to deceive many.

    In Christ,
    CD

  31. Fran said

    Yeshua spoke Aramaic not saying did He did not know greek, but Aramaic was the langusge that Yeshua spoke.

    There are all kinds of movements going on in these last days, so why would anyone be suprised at the cultic movements using the name Jesus, Yeshua,etc. Yeshua said that many would come in my name.

    When they come preaching another Yeshua, then what should you believe if you are a true believer, born again, filled with Holy Spirit?

    Should you follow or should you hold fast to the teaching of the true Yeshua?

    This is not a question for the unlearned. I find your comments rather self motivating to draw those to your site. I raise my eyebrow at your comments.

  32. Fran said

    Who do you consider Gentiles? That’s a very good start! Have fun!

  33. Diane said

    Coram Deo, why would you have a problem with His Name being “Yeshua”? Do you also have a problem with His Name “Emmanuel”?

  34. Diane said

    Also Coram, what in Eden’s comments motivated you to ask whether she was born again? The Good News that Jesus preached was “repent and believe” for the Kingdom of God is at hand not believe in predestination. Testing the spirits starts with our own spirit.

  35. Brother Job, God placed you where you are and called you to His Son, John 6:41-65.

    Any good, including any self control you exhibit is the fruit of God’s Holy Spirit, that He has granted to you, Galatians 5:22-23. Sealing you for His praise and glory, not your own Ephesians 1:13-14.

    As we grow in grace we learn things that break with all the traditions we once held as doctrine, but the Lord’s will be done.

    Kyle, perhaps you were always in the Lamb’s Book of Life and are just realizing your name is there? Consider Revelation 3:5 and Revelation 17:8. It is those who are not the Lord’s who’s names never reside in the Lamb’s Book of Life from the foundation of the world, Revelation 13:8
    Be happy you’re the Lord’s!

    Jonathan De Leon, here are some videos related to the topic of predestination, that you should view. They are full of supporting scripture and analysis. Including a look at (free will advocates) Jacobus Arminius and John Wesley.

    Predestination 1

    Predestination 2

    Predestination 3

  36. Charles D. said

    Coram Deo

    I am now getting back to you. If I have misunderstood you, then, please let me know. I understand you to say that as your Comment 10 below.

    “The Bible clearly teaches that God sovereignly chooses some people to be regenerated from death unto life by being miraculously “born-again” of the Spirit. This translation from spiritual death unto spiritual life isn’t something that sinful man is capable of doing or even participating in.”

    You are dead wrong in terms of “even participating in” Because sinful man must first make the choice of accepting or rejecting Christ; without which he is totally unacceptable to God. That too is where “free will,” “free-Choice,” “free moral agency” or whatever you choose to call it comes in.

    Man have only one choice to make in this life and that is to accept or reject Christ; everything else are series of decisions. Also, I don’t know why there is such a problem with this Free-will and predestination thing. Free-will by God is in Man’s province and predestination is now, always have been, and will forevermore be God’s province. It is almost as if you’re trying to get a glimse in the Book of Life to see if you are in it. Regardless, whether it is there or not, it is a far gone conclusion. This going back and forth under the circumstance, serves no ligitimate purpose. Furthermore, it is neither helpful or wholesome, and it certainly doesn’t win souls, at least, not for God. God is not a God of confusion;’ why do you attack a subject under the guise of intellilectual exchange. Why beat 3 or 4 people over the head with it. Surely if God is willing to give Micey, HTL, and Lormarie free-will, and the US Constitution promotes freedom of expression, then you can do the same.

    Brother, you are far too heavy-handed with your opinions and you offer more hot-links than the law allow. I hope you know that few have time or interest in following those things. On a serious tip, whatever you say, especially what you write should 1) be right and 2) make sense.

    You made another comment at your Comment 19 and I am still scratching my head if I understand you correctly.

    “LorMarie said:No matter how you slice it, God wants everybody to be saved: and you reponded with:

    “So you’re taking the position that God is not sovereign? After all you’ve agreed that everyone won’t be saved (i.e. Universalism), so this necessarily means that God Almighty is unable to fulfill His own will? Wouldn’t that fact alone make Him not Almighty? If God isn’t supreme and sovereign in salvation that leaves man as the sovereign agent of his own salvation based upon his “choice”. In the view you’ve espoused God’s will is subject man’s choice – God is a reactionary to man – the clay becomes the potter!”

    How in the name of God does “God wants everybody to be saved:” translates into God is not sovereign? Please answer that first and not mix it with anything else. I’m admitedly slow and I do not want to become anymore confused than I am already. On the surface. it takes one herculean leap in logic to arrive at that conclusion! Please help me out here, because a baby christian reading this and taking you seriously, well, I hope you realize that you would be responsible for leading that little one astray.

    Charles

  37. Coram Deo said

    Charles D.,

    First things last and last things first – I responded to your request for clarification about God’s sovereign will in post #27.

    You said: You are dead wrong in terms of “even participating in” Because sinful man must first make the choice of accepting or rejecting Christ; without which he is totally unacceptable to God.

    Charles, how does an ungodly, depraved, dead-in-trespass-and-sins man “choose” a Holy God? Do men choose God or does God choose men? Do men accept Christ or does Christ accept men? What is your concept of God?

    My concept of God in the light of infallible scripture is that He is an Almighty God, our Infinite Creator and Judge Who is entirely sovereign and fully in control of every detail of His creation. Furthermore this same God is Triune in nature (Father, Son & Holy Spirit) and is totally self-contained taking no counsel of anything or anyone outside Himself. This is because He is the self-contained Ultimate Ultimate and there is none greater than Himself.

    This same God is also a covenant God Who covenanted with Himself before the foundations of the world to redeem a peculiar people for Himself out of the masses of humanity, a special covenant people. With full foreknowledge of all things He went about creating all things according to His purposes, and for His good pleasure and glory and is even now sovereignly unfolding His divine plan according to His perfect will.

    This means God is in full control of all things. Now I don’t know if you’re in agreement with me up to this point, but here’s where we seem to part ways.

    I believe that man incurred spiritual death in the fall of Adam and therefore the unregenerate (the lost) are utterly incapable of choosing to obey God. Worse still I believe that due to spiritual death the unregenerate are also unable to even desire to obey God. (I’ve explained this in quite a bit of detail in prior comments) Left alone in this miserable fallen condition the unregenerate are on a one way trajectory to eternal damnation because of their fallen, sinful condition that separates them from their perfectly Just and Holy Creator. The unsaved are pre-judged as being guilty of breaking God’s laws and thus are fully deserving of punishment for their transgressions.

    So now we come back to my earlier series of rhetorical questions:
    Q. How does an ungodly, depraved, dead-in-trespass-and-sins man “choose” a Holy God?
    A. Man doesn’t choose God, rather God out of His boundless mercy, pity and love chooses men to be saved according to His own perfect counsel and will. Those who God chooses will certainly be saved because Jesus Christ, God Incarnate, died on the cross and paid the sin debt for all those who would be saved. Christ’s atoning sacrifice was 100% effective to remit the sins of those for whom He died (the elect) and all those for whom He died will in no wise be lost. This is why I commented earlier that if God willed for all people to be saved, then all people would be saved because God is God and His will must be done or else He isn’t God. And if God willed that all people were to be saved, then all people would be saved, and then we would have universal salvation for all human beings which is a common heresy known as Universalism.

    Q. Do men choose God or does God choose men?
    A. See answer above.

    Q. Do men accept Christ or does Christ accept men?
    A. Jesus Christ accepts all men who are drawn to Him by the Father. It’s this effectual drawing that seems to separate our conception of salvation. I believe the Bible clearly teaches that there are none who seek after God, no not one. So what is it then that causes an ungodly, depraved, dead-in-trespass-and-sins man to be enabled and empowered to be saved? We’ve already seen from scripture that it can’t be anything in or of the man himself since there are none who seek God, so what is it then?

    The truth is that God Almighty sovereignly regenerates sinners by the power of His Holy Spirit to be able to receive His Word and become miraculously “born-again” in the spirit, translating them from spiritual death unto spiritual life. God chooses his predestined elect for this unspeakable miracle of mercy, pity and love not for any merit that He sees that is in, or will be in that sinner, but by His own will and for His purpose and glory. So you see men don’t “make decisions for Christ”, instead men are chosen by God to be empowered through regeneration to become spiritually alive unto the truth of the Gospel, be born-again, and thereby are spiritually enabled to actually become obedient to Christ. Only the born-again can “decide for Christ”, or to put it another way to choose to do good instead of evil. The unsaved, unregenerate, the lost – whatever you want to call them – cannot decide for Christ or choose to do good, they always and invariably choose evil because they are spiritually dead and thoroughly wicked. It’s by the effectual calling of God according to His divine election that men are saved. An individual unregenerate sinner has no role, nor does he cooperate with the process of salvation in any way, shape or form, it’s all of God and all of grace – it is the gift of God lest any man should boast.

    As with LorMarie earlier I would encourage you to read Romans 9 and see that God is the potter and we are the clay. He saves whom He will save and that’s it! It’s His decision, not ours and since He is God and we are not we have no recourse or position from whence we might dare to question His reasons.

    So I hope now you will see that men can’t choose to be obedient or even to desire God apart from already having been chosen by God in predestination. Therefore we can also know that apart from being chosen of God (elected) unto salvation unregenerate men don’t truly want to, and never will choose God anyway so they’re not being denied something they aspire to or desire in any way. In the final analysis we can rejoice in the truth that anytime a sinner comes to God it is clearly a wonderful and divine miracle of God’s tender mercy and grace! I don’t know how God causes His elect to come to Him by their own free will, but He does and that’s enough for me.

    Sola Dei Gloria!

  38. Charles D. said

    Coram Deo

    First I want to apologize for having my second response to you deleted. I am simply too tired to re-write all of that and I have those “christians” to thank for it.

    I attempted to engage you in dialogue and want this to run between you and I for sometime. I feel in my spirit that you are now where I was maybe 38 years ago. While I admire your tanacity and willingness to presue what you believe in, I am not in a habit of speaking where those supposedly spreading the word of God choose to be arbiters, and I might add, attempt to replace God a task they cannot do if they had a road map.

    The axiom that what happens in the dark will come to the light. Unfortunately, they picked the wrong one this time.
    Anyway, I want to leave this scripture with you that will explain how a sinful man can choose God. You should read. You should remember that I said, if before death, that sinful and fallen man accepts, the Lord Jesus Christ, irrespective of his former self, he will indeed be saved, in fact, just as saved as maybe you and I who might have done rightously from early on. Read Matthew 20:1-16 and consider the latter hour laborers the sinners. This also applies to a relative or family member that you are not sure whether they come to know and accept Christ before passing on.

    Should you have problems, or, differ in your interpretation, then, email me at chaz33_99@yahoo.com I never know when the plug might be pulled again. What I do know (HTL, Job, IC, et al) is once God fire you, you cannot get another job.

    Charles

  39. Charles D. said

    HTL, Job, IC et al,

    What you really did by deleting my comments, and are too unmanly, not to mention ungodly to do, is admit that you didn’t know what you were talking about when you stated that I had not evangalized in Indonesia. That in combination with your other shortcomings should alert every reader to this site, exactly, what you are about.

    First it starts with censorship, next you select who you will hear and who you will not allow to be heard. Sounds kinda sorta like Jim Jones to me.

    You are wise in your own deceit and anything, ANYTHING YOU BUILD ON A LIE WILL SURELY CRUMBLE AT YOUR FEET.

    Still Charles and still standing

    Now, stand back and watch God Work!

  40. Job said

    Charles D.:

    Again, your speech is without facts. I never deleted your comments. I merely delayed their appearance until I prayed over whether to continue to allow to you to participate despite your insistence on this forum despite your use of swear words after you had been warned at least twice to stop using them.

    You are further suffering from other delusions. I have no obligation, spiritual or otherwise, to provide you or anyone else a forum here or anyplace else. Quite the contrary, there are far more scriptures in the Bible that would support my preventing a person who claims to be a Christian from coming on here swearing and making false railing accusations than you can contrive to use out of context to justify suffering one such as yourself.

    Third, unlike one such as yourself, at no point do I hide, conceal, deny, or run from my shortcomings. Quite the contrary, I freely put them on display so that other people will see me doing so and feel free to confess their faults to one another so that they may be healed by following my example. And that is why your claim that I “censored you” because I was wrong about your never having evangelized in Indonesia is foolish. Why would I censor that honest mistake and not this?

    # Lisa M. Says:
    October 31, 2007 at 6:02 pm e

    So you’ve concluded that Stedman Graham is “obviously homosexual” how? Because of an unfounded rumor in a gossip rag? Lovely.

    I’m not defending Oprah, her show, her beliefs or her relationship. I’m tired of Christians spewing garbage like this out there like it’s gospel truth. If you have no firsthand knowledge that this is true then it’s nothing more than gossip, which by the way, God hates. And if your “discernment” is based on trashy magazines at the supermarket checkout line, it’s pathetic. Please stop it. It’s embarassing.

    healtheland Says:
    October 31, 2007 at 6:11 pm e

    Lisa M:

    Fair enough. I will remove it.

    # Lisa M. Says:
    November 2, 2007 at 10:04 am e

    Thank you. I really appreciate your response and I want to apologize for the harshness of my comment.

    healtheland Says:
    November 2, 2007 at 12:34 pm e

    Lisa M: Oh, do not worry about appearing harsh. If you catch me sinning, as you did, then I need to hear it :-)! I prefer hurt feelings to the lake of fire!

    That is on this thread right here Charles:

    https://healtheland.wordpress.com/2007/10/30/new-age-witch-oprah-winfreys-the-secret-lines-up-with-freemasonry/

    That is far from the only one. Here is another:

    # francis beckwith Says:
    November 19, 2007 at 1:45 am e

    For the record, I was not forced to resign my presidency of ETS. See here:

    http://rightreason.ektopos.com/archives/2007/05/my_return_to_th.html

    healtheland Says:
    November 19, 2007 at 9:20 am e

    Francis Beckwith:

    The article that I referenced said this: “The first part has not been controversial of late, but the second was the focus of the society’s recent fight over open theism and was named as a reason why Francis Beckwith could not remain as ETS president after his conversion to Roman Catholicism.”

    You can understand the inference that I drew based on it. I will update the post with your comment.

    # Francis Beckwith Says:
    November 19, 2007 at 12:33 pm e

    No problem. The mistake understandable. One of the unfortunate consequences of blogging is that it does not allow us (me, you, and everyone else) to properly reflect on a matter before we start issuing our opinions in public.

    Thank you.

    Frank

    https://healtheland.wordpress.com/2007/11/17/should-evangelical-christians-become-roman-catholics-apostate-jp-moreland-thinks-so/

    I picked that last one because you ought to be familiar with it … you participated in the very thread in which it appears.

    # Charles D. Says:
    November 18, 2007 at 8:31 pm e

    djenk23

    Have you visited or lived in the Netherlands?

    Those are far from the only one, and I have dozens, though probably not hundreds, like that. Charles, I make mistakes on here all the time. People come correct me all the time, and when they do I always remove or account for the error and leave the evidence of having been publicly rebuked and corrected for all to see. Just like my testimonies, both of which contain embarrassing private details of my RECENT sinful past, are available for all to see. Want to read them Charles? Here goes. http://healthelanddevotionalarchives.wordpress.com/2007/03/01/testimony-time/

    http://healthelanddevotionalarchives.wordpress.com/2007/05/04/testimony-time-ii/

    So Charles D., like you there are many things that I have no knowledge of. Unlike you, I have no problem admitting them.

  41. Charles D. said

    Thanks IC

    As I said in my previous post: “Now stand back and watch God work”

    WOW! It is an amazing God that I serve. You’ve put yourself on display for all to see. I will use one of many sentences where God have turned you inside out. HTL is going to angry with you when he returns, if he returns:

    Job sais: “I merely delayed their appearance until I prayed over whether to continue to allow to you to participate despite your insistence on this forum despite your use of swear words after you had been warned at least twice to stop using them.”

    Of course, you do know God will not for get that lie in your very first sentence.

    Charles

  42. Job said

    Charles D.

    What is wrong with you? Those things were ALREADY out there for all to see. It is you who were lying. And you are the one who is lying now. Why do you keep making irresponsible statements? Just like I told you in the past that it was possible for the admin of a weblog to tell if the same person was using two different IDs (back when you were insanely insisting that djenk23 and IndependentConservative were the same person … did you ever admit that you were wrong by the way … not unless you did so weeks later!) now you claim that I am incapable of storing your messages. Have you ever administered a weblog? Well you need to. Go to http://wordpress.com/signup and do so.

    And incidentally, you have not given me your Bible verses that demonstrates that I have some spiritual obligation to let you come on here and say anything that you wouldn’t say in your church. Why? Because it isn’t there. Show spiritual maturity, Charles. Take responsibility for your words and actions. Control your emotions.

  43. HannahJ said

    Is Calvinism really the only alternative to Arminianism? God is a God of dualities, and while He may be exclusive and He does polarize, doctrine is not all polar. Something to think about.

  44. Job said

    HannahJ:

    Truthfully, it is not a key issue with me the way that, say, Trinity is. While both groups have their excesses, the mainstream or orthodox within both all believe in the deity and resurrection of Jesus Christ and that salvation is obtained only through Him. Reformed Christians blame a lot of the nonsense that goes on in evangelical, charismatic, and liberal Christianity on free will doctrines, and free will Christians blame a lot of the rigid traditionalist fundamentalism on predestination doctrines. Both groups look at the other, pound their fists on the table, and say “that is not the God that I serve! that is not the God that I encounter when I read the Bible!”

    I personally was straddling the fence for awhile and have finally taken a stand. But I have no cause to oppose free will Christians that adhere to the Bible (just as I will not support Calvinists who do not) and will continue to feature teachings on here from Adrian Rogers, Derek Prince, and other free will preachers just as I was putting John MacArthur teachings on here when I was still leaning heavily towards free will. It just so happens that since free will Christianity is so dominant, naturally most of the issues in Christianity are going to come from their camp because of their sheer numerical advantage. But back when most Protestant Christians were Calvinist, THEY were the ones that had most of the problems, and very serious ones indeed. No matter what we call ourselves, it is Jesus Christ that saves, and He is who we must keep our eyes on.

  45. Coram Deo said

    Well said, Job.

    To your point C.H. Spurgeon had much the same thing to say about the essentials of our faith vs. the non-essentials in a piece entitled On Essential Doctrines and Those Who Deny Them (courtesy of Team Pyro).

    It’s quite cliché but I try to tend toward the maxim “In Essentials, Unity; in Non-essentials, Liberty; in All Things, Charity”, even though I regularly and miserably fail to live up to this aspiration.

    Yet this being said I also believe it’s equally important for a born-again believer to know what one believes and why one believes it and be able to mount a Biblical, Christ-centered apologetic when asked to account for the hope that lies within.

    Off subject I’d also like to offer my apologies to the Jesus Christology blogmaster, contributors, and regulars for my “proliferation” within this particular thread. I’m typically loathe to visit other blogs and set up my soap-box, but it seems that in this case I did just that. Sorry!

  46. Angie said

    I believe if anyone thinks that people are being saved by free-will salvation, then they have just overstep Romans 8 chapter. Remember flesh cannot please God. You need regeneration plus grace and mercy of God to be saved. This type of salvation comes through election and to deny that, you have just denied Ephesians 1 chapter as well. To take you further, starting from Matthew 24:30 and ending from the 26th chapter, Jesus parables spoke of mysteries of the kingdom of heaven and told the disciples exactly whom will be saved. Many will be called but few will be chosen. There was an interesting post like this on predestination as well at pulpit-pimps website.

  47. Angie said

    If churches were to preach and teach predestination, TD Jakes, Joel Osteen, Eddie Long,and the list goes on would be out of business.

  48. If churches were to preach and teach predestination, TD Jakes, Joel Osteen, Eddie Long,and the list goes on would be out of business.

    I highly doubt that. While I realize predestination is real, I also know the pimps tactics well enough to know they’d spin it to enhance their games. Telling people they are meant to give all their money and get a big reward here on earth. They’d spin it right into their bag of tricks if they saw enough people starting to gain an understanding of it.

    What would put the pimps out of business is people reading their own Bibles and coming to better understand how the new covenant really works and differs from the old covenant. And even without a clear understanding of predestination, that is how people get free from pimps. That they learn the prosperity doctrine fails to honestly represent the promises to and exceptions of saints under the new covenant is essential. The predestination or free will matter is very secondary. Scriptures such as Acts 8:20, 1 Timothy 6:5 and a host of others show the prosperity doctrine heresy is a straight hell shot, but scripture while laying out that predestination is real does not make understanding it a requirement at all. The pimps games thrive off people not realizing the real difference between the old and new covenants. Even without those pimps, saints outside of prosperity doctrine circles are paying 10% for fear of being “cursed”, because they don’t understand the covenants.

    In any order of precedence regarding things most saints need to learn. Gaining a better understanding of the new covenant while knowing what the old covenant was would rank far higher on the priority list than predestination.

  49. Diane said

    Calvinist have been known to show demonic fruit, such as banishment, public whipping, and burning people at the stake for not agreeing with them. Christ calls us to abide in Him not in denominational teachings.

  50. Angie said

    IC, I understand and been there. I know what it is like to be fearful of a ‘curse’ if I didn’t pay my 10%. I also agree with you that saints need to read the word of God themselves so that they wouldn’t be deceived by the pimps. What I am saying is that if these pimps taught straight up predestination without any twist and turns to the gospel, that understanding would be clear to the people and they wouldn’t pack the churces like they do now. Also if they taught straight up that Christ is the High Priest and you don’t have to pay tithes anymore in Hebrews 7, the pimps would be out of business. The same if they preach turn or burn sermons. The truth would defeat their wicked purpose.

  51. Angie said

    I should have been more clear on my last statement because you’re right. The pimps can take anything the bible says and twist it around.

  52. A pimp can’t preach sound doctrine. That would be why they are a pimp 🙂 .

    Saints learning Christ is their High Priest is most needed. Saints being taught to turn from wickedness as noted in 1 Corinthians 6:9-11 is also needed. There Paul was speaking to saints. He knew they were redeemed, however, one who fails to turn from evil might be one we find actually never was saved to begin with. Saints need to know that they should hate sin and while they don’t need to feel they’ll burn if they make a mistake and die before being able to repent, they need to know to avoid sin. When I say make a mistake and die before being able to repent, I mean what if a saint cuts through a red traffic signal rushing home for their wedding anniversary and dies right there instantly in a car accident? (Not them embracing sin continually, but a moment where they slipped.) We who understand predestination and even many who promote “free will” do not feel that person is going to hell. We for the most part all agree their sins were already forgiven. There are extremes such as “Pastor Tony Smith” (and probably some of the places Job and I came up in) who acts like you could die and go straight to hell in such a scenario.

    Still I see teaching saints about holding to Christ alone and turning from sin as far more the essentials and predestination as very much a secondary concern. God does not have Paul say much that points to predestination to the Corinthians. (Other than the fact Paul still regarded them as saints.) They were far too much into mess to be given such teaching. In the book of Romans, our “free will” brothers and sisters readily toss out what God had him write in chapters before chapters like 9. Because God had Paul to address issues like holding to Christ and avoiding sin before revealing that everything was ordained to be as it is before the foundation of the world. In the book of Ephesians God has Paul hit the matter of predestination to start the epistle.

    I think the state of the church today is very much a mirror of the churches in Corinth, although in some ways I see worse given scripture notes false teachers would get worse, but pray we who are the true church grow. An understanding of predestination once was well understood throughout the church and may come again in time. But I’m not seeing it as the top priority matter though.

  53. Job said

    Diane:

    Please realize that both free will and Calvinistic/Reformed Christianity have had their problems historically and still have them yet today. The root cause in both cases is not their, what was the word that Kenneth said, soteriology doctrine, but rather people who say that they are Christians but are not, Christians who deviate from the Bible, and Christians that refuse to disfellowship or disassociate themselves from either of them. Note how the Southern Baptist Convention, for instance, refuses to deal with either Rick Warren or the emergents. And if you look a couple of posts below, Warren and the emergents are now working together to put on this big universalist get – together in New York City. The problem is not that Rick Warren, Brian McClaren, etc. are free will Christians. The problem is that Rick Warren, Brian McClaren, etc. are not Christians at all, and the people in the Southern Baptist Convention that are Christians won’t do anything about it! And the same goes with T. D. Jakes, Paula White, Creflo Dollar, Kenneth Copeland, Benny Hinn, John Hagee, Joel Osteen, the Crouch family, etc. You have a lot of good Pentecostal/charismatic Christian preachers out there who won’t say a thing against them. Why?

    The thing is that I would have never even learned about Calvinist/Reformed theology if the websites that show up first in the search engines that discuss the false doctrines of these famous preachers were not dominated by Reformed Christians. Apprising Ministries, Light House Research, Discernment Ministries, Christian Research Network, CARM, etc. For instance, I had never even heard of John MacArthur, George Whitefield, or Charles Spurgeon before I went to their websites. But reading reading their information and seeing the strong uncompromising stand that they took for not only doctrinal orthodoxy but also Biblical morality in financial and moral matters, I was intrigued. I ignored the fact that they do not think much of charismatic – leaning folks such as myself and decided to do some more study.

    Now not all of them are Reformed or Calvinist, of course. Let Us Reason, for instance, is a very good free will ministry that opposes heresies and heretics. Apologetics Index is another. But if the free will Christians were doing their jobs, they would have websites all over the Internet combating this stuff, and as such I would never have encountered Reformed or Calvinist Christianity to begin with. So the question must be asked: why?

  54. Eden Hadassah said

    Coram,

    Was the name Yeshua really not in the Old Testament? Where do you get that? Have you considered the book of Zachariah? Joshua is the english translation of the hebrew word Yeshua. It was a common name in his time. How many Joshua’s do we have in the world today? Where do you get your so called information? From the messianic rabbi’s of today, who oppose the Hebrew Root’s movement in order to slip in their own jewish traditions? They work both sides of the street, so to speak.
    The evil leaven that has crept into the evangelical church and messianics is the need to “reform” christians by teaching precepts which God did not ordain. The Babylonian and Jerusalem Talmud, along with the Kabbalah are an abomination before the Lord our God. Yeshua (Jesus if it makes you more comfortable)is none other then the Son of the most High God. There is but one God! Yeshua came to us of his free will, to join us once again to His Heavenly Father. He and the Father are one. I do not call Yeshua “Father,” for the Lord himself said there is only one Father, our Heavenly Father. The Father sent his Spirit like a dove down and announced that Yeshua was his Son in whom he was well pleased. The Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are One.
    Here O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is One.
    Shall you really question whether I am born-again? More to the point, I shall ask you whether you are saved! Where is your discernment? Your eyes have been blinded by your own doctrines. Your thinly veiled confusion disguises you only ever so slightly. You speak of these “pecular people”, and yet we both know of whom you speak. I am a hebrew. I take no offense to others being identified with jewish people. Jewish people have carried out their “traditions of men” and put them above the word of God. So when a christian decides to identify with a jew, and try to say they have “jewish roots”, I know how to minister to them. They think that there is some hidden truth in the Talmud or in Kabbalah, and there is not. The only truth that can be deducted from these two idols are that they are blasphemous against the Lord their God. They must repent, and they must not continue to open Gentiles up to their ways. Their ways are not the Lord’s ways. Their ways are smoke in the nostrils of the most High God. Their rabbi’s increase their guilt by making laws which would condemn a man for telling the truth about a jew. This law has become known as “anti-semitism.” This word shall be a byword and a reproach to my people. For they use it to slander others, which is out of place for God’s people. Anti-semitism has become their justification for their sins. Anyone that may speak about the injustice that is done by Israel is labeled an anti-semite, or in my case “a self-hating jew.” But I am no jew, and I wipe that yoke of a word off my shoulders. I am a hebrew. Not someone that just “knows” in an effort to be joined to this pecular people. Hate speech laws shall not hide the sin of my people, nor the blood upon their hands. We have sinned greatly in the Lord’s site, and my people have done unspeakable things to her neighbors. None should be terrified of hate speech laws, yet my people would seek to make all afraid, so that she may hide her guilt. I will not turn from truth for the sake of solidarity.
    You have sought to confuse many, and I shall say things clear.
    Who was it that said “Let us make man in our own image?” Is it not the Lord? In who’s image did he make man? He made man in his image, man does not make God in his own image. Yet that is what you seek to do, which, I might add is the yeast of the Pharasees. God is not a man that he should lie! Shall mercy and grace not abound? This in not possible for you to understand because you suffer from exlusive delusions. You have chosen to draw out scripture on pre-destination and make doctrine of them. This is the leaven of Pharasees. God made man in his own image, and therefore has endowed him with all that is like God. That includes knowing. You also do not refer to the scriptures in Ezekiel that says that the Lord shall remove our hearts of stone and give us hearts of flesh, and that he will put his laws in our hearts so that we are careful to follow his decrees. So by your definition that man is so base after the fall of Adam and Eve, that he is so sinful that he could not know to choose right from wrong, and accept his Savior or deny his Savior, you make my God a liar.
    Why do you suffer so many with this burden? Is your own heart so burdened with inferiority, that you must press the issue of the “hand picked of God” and say that you are one of them? Know with full assurance that you are. Take off this heavy yoke that you lay upon others as though you are special. You are only his servant, and it is your reasonable duty to be about his business. You are not to beat his other servants. He loves you dearly, but you are not greater than the Master.

    Are you under the impression that the disciples were Greek? They spoke Aramaic. Paul spoke a few languages. He too spoke Aramaic as well as Greek. What is your point? Yeshua is translated into Greek as Jesus. Shall you argue on such trivial matters as these? Do you know what his new name shall be? It is only known to him! Tell me if you know? Will you recognize him when he returns, as you have failed to recognize your own kin?
    Search your own heart, and repent of your burdens. The Lord’s burdens are light and easy.
    As for the Sabbath…again, Yeshua came to abolish not the Law of Moses, but the laws of men. The Talmud, from which the Pharasees gained their knowledge, was the “rule” of the day. They added to the words of God, which is forbidden, and that is what Yeshua came to get rid of. This was the law of sin and death. Search the scriptures, even Revelations, and there you will find in more than one place it written, “Do not add to my words, nor take a way from my words.” Do your homework to find the penalty for these things. Yeshua did not come to abolish the Sabbath. It is the delight of God and a gift to his creation. Jews have made it a burden. More over, no one had the right to change the set times and dates of God. If you choose to believe that Sunday is the day of the Sabbath because Constintine said so, go ahead, but is it the Sabbath? We must worship God in spirit and in truth. Yeshua did not change the set days. He is Lord of the Sabbath, and it is his day. He rested from his own labor on the Sabbath, and the Holy Spirit rose him from the dead on the first day of the week, not on the Sabbath. There is significance to this. For on the first day he created light, and separated the light from the darkness. This is the order of things ordained by God. His Son is the light of the world, and he splits the darkness.
    There are cults out there, and I do not agree with the Jewish roots movement. But when I come across someone that is involved in such things, I can, in love, explain the great love that God has lavished upon them, and that they must be identified with God alone. Those who are Gentiles become one with jews in Messiah. He is their identification, justification and life. It is not in the dress or mannor of speech of any kind of jew. I have left letters out of the word God, pronouncing G_d, because it is their way, and because I desire to speak more to them. As I have come to this site, I have noticed that there are no jewish people commenting on the board, so I write the word God or Lord clearly. It is just a matter of respect to them. My own, and not a mandate from God. The Lord seeks his lost, as he seeks for all to be saved.
    There seems to be some sort of identity crisis among christians these days, and that has been created by the Hagee camp. In Yeshua we are all one, both jew and gentile. And everyone these days wants to be called a jew. This is true. But why, if we are all one? It is because Messanic Jews have still chosen to make that distiction. Why hasn’t anyone told the Gentiles that they are so blessed, and that they are the inheritance of Yeshua? They belong to him. What a beautiful thing. It is the sin of my people to make distinctions, when all are welcome. Look at the Torah, as see if you find the harshness and crude attitude toward those who were not hebrews. You will not find it. All who desired to call upon the God of Abraham were welcome. But the Talmud sought to make horrible distinctions, and through their laws they made gentiles “unclean,” or less then human, so that they could sin against the Lord. They used “gentiles” as the exuse. If they wanted to commit adultery or sin, one could do it to a gentile and the law would still be preserved in their own eyes. Lieing with a gentile woman or even a three year old girl was not a sin, but if the same man were to lie with a jewish woman it would be sin? Gentiles were not human to jews, and they still study this in their Yeshiva’s. There are detestable things done against gentiles, and the Lord’s great gift of Love was to show them that he loved them and shed his blood for them as well as for the jews. This was the ultimate gift! Redemption, everlasting life for a gentile? An unclean unhuman creature that was no better than cattle? ABSOLUTELY! It is a lavish and beautiful gift that does not come by merit, but by grace. He comes to us, and he dwells with us. He comforts us and he disciplines us. He is our all in all. None is greater than our God. Gentiles should rejoice in their redemption and the love of God shed abroad in their hearts. They should reflect the love and mercy of messiah, and in the face of rejection and hatred from the jews, love them as messiah loves them. Yeshua came to take the scales from their eyes, but if Gentiles will seek to become like the jews, they only make the scales heavier.
    There is a wanton lust after those who are jews, and jews are quick to teach their ways. We are not to follow their ways, but the way of Yeshua the Messiah. We must follow the Lamb. We must not place Israel above God, lifting her up or her land up as an idol, seeking a blessing. Pagans do this. We are not pagans, but believers in the most Holy God, and to worship his land or his creation is an abomination that causes desolation. We must love him, and have compassion, mercy and love for Israel. We must speak the truth to her, not stroke her into a false sense of security, giving gifts for her blood shed. We must not turn our backs on Israel, and if we do not tell the truth of her ways, we are turning our backs on her. I care for her, but not more than her Husband! It is my King that I shall lift up, because it is only he who can save her and make her Holy.

  55. Job said

    Eden: So these are your people? http://www.hebrewroot.com/questions.htm

    About the Sabbath … I think that Romans, Hebrews, and Galatians (if not all three definitely two of the three) that said that Christians were not to keep the Sabbath anymore? I know that Hebrews chapter 4 says something to that effect; that Jesus Christ is our Sabbath and our sacrifice. I believe that I heard some pastor say that only 9 of the 10 commandments were re – stated in the New Testament.

    Now as for the law, the Torah, Hebrewroot.com said that the law was for sanctification, not for salvation. I thought that the New Testament said that the Holy Spirit sanctified us? In any event, even if that were true, that would pose some challenges. Circumcision, the Sabbath, and the holidays are no big deal, and neither are the Ten Commandments. But how much else given in Exodus, Leviticus, and Deuteronomy is a Torah – observant Christian supposed to keep?

    Keep in mind, this question is being asked of you by a staunch defender of the Messianic Jewish movement. And I do agree … Y’shua = Joshua in = God saves. However, it is fair to point out that the vowel points used in the Name of the one Y’shua MaMashiach has been a subject of debate. Since we do not have the Hebrew (or Aramaic) originals for the gospels and the other New Testament books were written in Greek, other than the fact that Christ is referred to (derisively) as “Yeshe” in some places in the Talmud, is it possible to know? I have read, for instance, that the vowel points for the Joshua in the book of Zechariah is different from the vowel points of the Joshua led took Israel against Jericho.

  56. Eden Hadassah said

    I do not agree with the Hebrew Roots movement. I can identify with many of the things that they have said about messiah, and the Torah. They have chosen to wrap them selves in traditional cultural jewish ways that have followed them from Babylon or from some other place. Cultural identity is what they have yet it is not commanded by God.See what an Ethiopian Jew does. You will find that they do not hold to Talmud nor do they know what it’s customs are, and they are mocked and mistreated for it. They predate the exiles and did not go into captivity to Babylon or Assyria. If messianic jews want to maintain some sort of “jewishness” why not the Ethiopian Jews? Even they are learning the ways of cultural jews. They worshipped God, and keep the Torah, and now that many of them are entering the land of Israel, they are being taught things that are not the ways of God. This need to be “culturally jewish” is hooey. It is God who makes us holy and set apart, not tradition or way of speech, or dress.
    We are to be identified with God. The Torah is not difficult to keep. And the reason for keeping it has nothing to do with salvation nor being sanctified. The Torah is God’s beautiful law of how we are to treat one another. It is his law that sets him apart from pagan gods, which are not gods at all. How many pagan religions teach a vengeful god that only wants gifts or else? Or demands strange things or customs, creating superstitious people? These religions are often cruel and have no real care for those around them. But God was different. His laws were about caring for people and respecting them, caring for the land, animals, your family members, strangers, aliens and foreigners because he created all things. It could never save. When they sinned they were to call out to God and ask for repentance and turn from their sins. The blood of animals would not cleanse the sin of man, and so the Lord sent his Son to be our atonement. He is our High Priest and our advocate. So if you were to look at the laws in the Torah, ask yourself, are they really hard? The Talmud is hard and the laws were no laws at all. How many times did Paul say that he was a Pharasee of Pharasees? His confession was clear. But he did not want gentiles to follow after the ways of the jews because to do so they would not look to the Torah, but seek to be taught by “judaizers.” Speaking of circumcision, it does not save. The jews felt that it did. It doesn’t say that in the Torah. The Hebrew Root’s movement, or Jewish roots movement, and even many messianic synogogues only identify with others in the flesh. (culture)It has nothing in it that lifts God up, only the flesh of tradition and that of Jews. We are to lift up Yeshua. Many have even gone so far as to speculate as to what he wore, to justify what they want to wear now. He spoke of the Pharasees with their phylactaries and their tassels. They strayed so far from his Law that they would, and still do, bind scrolls to their heads and arms. Just look at those who “wail” at the wall in Jerusalem! They have not changed their ways, but in defiance, continue on and teach others to do the same. Nothing has changed and in their stubbornness they choose not the Torah but Talmud Torah or any other number of things. They tried to argue their point with Paul about telling the gentiles not to follow the Law of Moses, but that is not what Paul did. They would convieniently choose to say “the Law of Moses” but they would refer only to their oral traditions which pulled the law all out of proportion and made it too heavy for others to bare.
    When the jews would come to try to trick Yeshua, they would come with a question that was beyond the law of Moses. Take for instance the woman caught in adultery. Why did they only bring the woman? The Torah said that both should be stoned. Not only that, but there needed to be more than one witness, and to make matters worse, if more than one man caught the woman in act, then wouldn’t it make them guilty of some perversion to boot? For them to look at the nakedness two people, then only drag the woman to be stoned? That is how perverse their version of the law had become.
    We are more than that.
    Is there anything in the Ten Commandments as a believer, that you feel you could not keep? Not as a matter of salvation, but just because it identifies us with a Holy God?
    We many times may not keep them perfectly, but that is where Yeshua made atonement. And he gives us the strength to keep them as a treasure, not for culture sake. I want to be identified with God, not with tradition that was detestable in the eyes of Yeshua, for which he rebuked them sharply.
    Hebrew roots didn’t dig deep enough to see the detestable star on their site! Or the traditions of man.
    As for the ordained holy days, again, would they be a difficult thing? Many celebrate christmas. That is more of a burden then Passover… It was so that we might never forget that God is with us, and that he is mighty to save. Ultimately it is prophetic because Yeshua is the Passover Lamb. It is the reason we break bread together. He says to do it in rememberance of him. He observed the Sabbath, kept the Holy Days, even the festival of lights, which wasn’t ordained. He says to follow him, so that is why I do. But do we need to look to a rabbi or messianic rabbi to observe the set days? No. Moses gave them clear enough, and a lot of hoop-la was created around them.
    If we love the Son, we will also love the Father who sent him.
    I can see no harm obstaining from sexual sin, lieing, cheating, baring false witness, slander, dishonest scales and measures to defraud others of payment, dishonest business practices, and eating food that God says is unclean. Even in the clean and unclean food, there is wisdom, not for salvation but for health. How many people suffer in their bodies because of pork? They didn’t know about tricinosis or tapeworms from poorly cooked meat, but God did. It was for our benefit, not to restrict us. Even now, the best cooked pork contains viable tapeworm eggs which can go straight to the brain and look like brain cancer, causing a whole host of problems. His laws are practical.
    If we can obey the law of the land, and obey the speed limit, and other various laws here, how much more should we also respect the laws of God? Just as many laws here are put in place for our safety and the safety of others, so too with God.

  57. Eden Hadassah said

    I went back to the website you linked HTL, and there is a link which I will put on the bottom, which you probably saw. This is my problem with the anti-semitism movement…they say that to diminish or to deny the holocost is anti-semetic. It is not! People that want to glorify the deaths of innocent jewish people want to claim it is anti-semitic, but because jews were not the only ones to die in the holocost, I take offense to their position. The holocost was the genocide of not just one race or type of people, but of the elderly, the mentally or physically handicapped (many of which were their own people), christians, jews, gypsies, homosexuals and anyone else that they felt did not adhere physically to Hitler’s view of what the perfect physical human was supposed to look like. To diminish the deaths of others, which they do time and time again is the problem. Hitler did not kill them all, but he did put the good looking ones into his service or into the service of his other henchmen.
    What offends me, is messianic believers not clearly telling the truth, and making it look like only jews died. It was important to me to find the truth, and in truth only 1.5 million jews died in the holocost. The only proof given is a placard in Germany after the fact that states that 1.5 million jews died. Yet why aren’t the others ever mentioned? Is a jew more valuable then other human life? All life is precious to the Lord, and all murder grieves him. On the link you can see that they give the inventory sheet of how many are listed. If I am not mistaken, it has a number of 353,000 or so Jude. The rest of that sheet gives the others that were also killed. How can people professing to love Yeshua, show pictures of the holocost and say they were all jews when they are not clearly marked as such? What if some of them where christians or the others that also died? I have been to the holocost museum in D.C. and there is nothing to honor anyone else but jews. This creates a lie that they were the only ones. Everyone is so terrified of the truth, but why?
    We say “never again” yet do nothing for those who are wasting away in the Sudan or who died in Rwawanda, or any of the other mass killings and genocide that has taken place in recent years. If jews feel that the holocost should never happen again, then they should be the first to lobby for the interests of those who are currently dieing and of another culture. This should happen because they know what it is like to be hated because of our orientation or heritage. They should know better then to leave Palestinians in refugee camps, when they know full well that Ariel Sharon not only started Hamas as a counter to Yassar Arafat to stall the peace process, but also funded the very Islamic extremist that they now are claiming will “drink the blood of Jews.” They know this, yet they continue.
    I don’t know if any one caught the Iranian Pres. (I can’t spell his name) speech at the U.N., but I can tell you that he met with Jews before he even went to speak at the U.N. He defended them, and spoke about how certain jews have been treated in Israel, and he spoke about the Palestinian issue and his nuclear program. Zionists and others say he wants to wipe Israel off the map, and why? His main reasoning is that Palestinians are treated in the same fashion as the Jews were during the Holocost, hence his questioning the holocost. Why would this so called crazy man speak out about the autrocities done to the Palestinians and then turn around and nuke um? Does this make sense to anyone? If he didn’t wipe out the jews living in his land, who have been there for well over a thousand years, why would he wipe out Israel? It is Zionism, and zionism wants to be equated with being Jewish. It is not the same, nor will it ever be. Can we tell the truth about all genocides? Those done to the christians in Rome, then done by the church to jews, then done by the muslims to the christians, then done to christians at the hands of jews in Soviet Russia, then done Chinese by Japanese, and the Koreans, and the Cambodians, and Africans, European Jews, Ethiopian jews, Iraqis, Afganistan…
    Geez, it would take all day to write all the genocide done in the name of race, religion,tribe or political and commercial dominance.
    Maybe anti-semitism should be a word used for all crimes against humanity, being that Yeshua was a Semite himself, coming from the line of Judah, and from Abraham and Shem.
    http://www.endantisemitism.com/index.html

  58. Niles said

    Greetings Job,

    You, Kyle, and Angie are right (concerning PRE-destination – of course).

    But Eden H. is absolutely wrong, and apparently unlearned (II Pet. 3:15-16) when it comes to the SOUND DOCTRINE of God’s Word.

    But Jesus (the Word of God) answered and said, man shall not LIVE by bread alone, but BY EVERY WORD that proceeds out of the mouth of God. Matt. 4:4

    Now let’s see what God the Father has to say about PRE-DESTINATION (Oh, P-D is in the holy scriptures cover to cover. But, the blind can’t SEE it.) to His Sheep (the Church, the body of Christ,) as we trust in the Lord with ALL your heart, and LEAN NOT to your own understanding (Eden, that’s for you), in ALL your ways (Isa.55:6-8) acknowledge Him (..give us the spirit of wisdom, and revelation in the knowledge of Him, the EYES OF OUR UNDERSTANDING BEING ENLIGHTENED THAT WE MAY KNOW WHAT IS THE HOPE OF HIS CALLING..-UPON OUR LIVES), and He shall direct your paths. Be not wise IN YOUR OWN EYES: Fear the Lord, and depart from evil.

    The greek word “world” in John 3:16 is kosmos, means: an orderly arrangment (the 144,000 are the first fruits, then the harvest is next in line during the second half of the 7 year tribulation, and we all (the saved) are changed at the last trump-I Cor. 15:51-52, Rev. 1:3!!!) The greek word “kosmos” does NOT mean: the whole population of mankind on planet earth. And before I continue, and as Angie correctly pointed out, Romans 8:28-31.. And we know that ALL THINGS work together for good TO THEM THAT LOVE GOD (I John, and John 14,15,16,17,18), TO THEM that are called ACCORDING TO HIS PURPOSE (called WHEN? BEFORE!!! the foundation of the world..Ephesians Chap. 1:4!!!…WAIT-A-MINUTE!…isn’t that ONE of the EVERY WORD that proceeds out of the mouth of God, words that we are to live by? It sure is. …Warning: Rev. 22:17-18, II Pet. 3:15-16, Prov. 30:5-6, Jude, II John 9-10!….please don’t RE-DEFINE: (change, mix/truth with lies, or feigned/disguised words it’s called “privite interpretation”,…”that’s your interpretation, but I see it differently. So they (false prophets, and false teachers, lead God’s sheep astray (away from His word) ..and ARE to be exposed by God’s true servants TODAY, the same as YESTERDAY…that’s what Heb. 8:7-9, and I John 1:1-5:21 is all about!!) just agree to disagree.” – that statement is lie – period.) II Peter 1:19-20, I Cor. 1:10, Amos 3:3, Eph. 4:11-16…will discover who believes God’s true apostles, and prophets doctrine and example (every word-Matt. 4:4). FOR WHOM (who? the pre-destinated) He did FORKNOW, He also DID PRE-DESTINATE to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He(the Son) might be the first born (the resurrection) of many brethern. Moreover WHOM (who?..anybody, by their will that wants to?…No.) He DID PREDESTINATE, THEM He also called: and WHOM He called, THEM He also justified, and WHOM He justified, THEM He also glorified. What shall WE then say to these things? If God be for US, who can be against US.

    The most complete understanding of predestination I’m not ashamed to say: You can find:
    http://www.graceandtruth.net. Jim Brown (the original text is the final authority, says Jim.)
    And I agree.

    Job, Kyle, and Angie…will be very thankful to the Lord Jesus, for Jim Brown (graceandtruth.net) having taken the apostle Paul’s instruction to another young apostle of his day named Timothy (I Thess. 1:1,2:6) to study to shall himself approved unto God…I Tim.2:15-16…a workman that needs not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of TRUTH..

    I saw Jim Brown for the first time 2 months ago. And much of what I’ve heard thus far, the Lord has already taught me over the past 27 years (since 1980, I was 21 yrs. old) of reading, and praying His Word (such as praying the Psalms aloud – continuously…I say 25 a day is a good minimum – why?, because the Psalms are perfect prayers.), but Jim has been teaching for 51 years…so he’s learned a little more then me ( ok, alot more – smile ). So, if you want perfect understanding of PRE-destination…www.graceandtruth.net

    This is my first response: but many to come as I just started my first blog.
    I’m a little slow with computers so get me a little time.

    I’m looking forward to sharing my testimony with you all. Starting with a vision given to me from the Lord at age 7.

    And yes Kyle, no doubt, the Lord is with you young man. Now it’s time to seriously prepare for the 7 year tribulation…so pray (aloud, bold and strong like a lion roaring, or simply put with all your might) all the Psalms, because you what to be HID with Christ in God…Col. 3:1-4, Zeph. 2:1-3, Rev. 7:1-4, …the Lord will restore His judges as at the first.
    …and please remember I John 2:15-17, James 4:4.

    Because Malachi 4:1-2 says: For behold, the day comes, that shall burn as an oven (hummm, oven, hot, heat, burn…”globle warming”…READ!!! Zephaniah, Nahum, Amos, etc.); and ALL the proud, yes, and ALL that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that comes shall burn them (all the proud, and all that do wickedly), says the Lord of host, that shall neither leave them root or branch…

    My ministry, like the apostle Paul: Warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom, that I might present every man (in the body of Christ – Eph. 4:11-16) perfect in Christ Jesus…Col. 1:28

    http://www.nlighting.wordpress.com

    P.S. ..Women are not to teach, nor usurp authority over the men – period. Jesus called that doctrine the depths of Satan…that is the wrong spirit to want be associated with. Rev. 2:1-24.

    If that doesn’t put the fear of God in women “who call themselves apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors, and teachers (all those women must repent or else – hell is the only option …READ!!! Rev. 2:1-24, 22:18-19!!! …that tells me that they haven’t read Zech. 5:1-11, I Cor. 11-16, I Tim. 2:7-15,…and in I Cor. 14:29-40…Paul said, ..If any man (male), thinks himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you ARE (what ARE things that you said, Paul?) THE COMMANDMENTS OF THE LORD!!!

    But if, ANY man be ignorant, let him be ignorant.
    …”so let it be written, so let it be done.” (drum role, please).

    Niles (Gal. 1:1)

  59. djenk23 said

    Niles, i think that you are waaaaay off base…..you’ve basically said that Eden is not saved because she doesn’t believe in pre-destination….you’d have to show me Bible for that….Romans 10:9-10 says all that needs to be said about salvation….

  60. The problem is not that Rick Warren, Brian McClaren, etc. are free will Christians. The problem is that Rick Warren, Brian McClaren, etc. are not Christians at all…

    Exactly! Some of my best friends are of the free will view, including the guy who runs this blog, till recently 🙂 . Well Job, you’re no longer of the free will stance, but now that you accept predestination I guess I’ll still consider you a friend 😆 .

    I just want to note, that saying “group X had this many bad people in it” is often going to be a bad means for trying to claim one view is better than another. Legalism always wins that debate. The Pharisees I’m sure looked at the churches and Corinth and wagged their fingers. This does not mean the doctrine of the Pharisees was better. Doctrine has to be weighed against scripture alone.

    We pray and ask the Holy Spirit to guide us based solely on scripture and leave it at that. Groups that desire to depart from the scripture of the Bible, to use other materials, or claim other “revelations”, that’s nothing I stand with at all.

  61. I agree with Djenk23. Niles, you have in no uncertain terms branded someone as not being one of the “sheep” because they differ on the issue of predestination. Given you said:

    Now let’s see what God the Father has to say about PRE-DESTINATION (Oh, P-D is in the holy scriptures cover to cover. But, the blind can’t SEE it.) to His Sheep (the Church, the body of Christ,) as we trust in the Lord with ALL your heart, and LEAN NOT to your own understanding (Eden, that’s for you), in ALL your ways (Isa.55:6-8) acknowledge Him (..give us the spirit of wisdom, and revelation in the knowledge of Him, the EYES OF OUR UNDERSTANDING BEING ENLIGHTENED THAT WE MAY KNOW WHAT IS THE HOPE OF HIS CALLING..-UPON OUR LIVES), and He shall direct your paths. Be not wise IN YOUR OWN EYES: Fear the Lord, and depart from evil.

    I think you need to scale back your indignation a little when it comes to defending your position.

    This is not a discussion with someone who is a false teacher, but fellow saints.
    Colossians 3:12-14 (King James Version)

    12 Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;

    13 Forbearing one another, and forgiving one another, if any man have a quarrel against any: even as Christ forgave you, so also do ye.

    14 And above all these things put on charity, which is the bond of perfectness.

  62. Eden Hadassah said

    Sir Niles,

    You quote Yeshua, but do you know why you quote this verse? It was a temptation for Yeshua from Satan to turn stones into bread. Is that not what you seek to do here? Nothing is greater then the word of God. Yeshua is the word of God. Yet he quotes scripture from Exodus (Where Moses just delivered the children of Israel out of bondage…humm?) to Satan, and this is to support your doctrinal tyraid?
    Actually all you have done to this conversation was to add quail to the manna! What is greater, the beauty of pre-destination or the Lord who calls us from before the creation of the world?
    I understand full well what pre-destination is, it just does concern me all that much, because God is the author of pre-destination and he calls as he chooses. But you have not understood what I was saying about the burden of laying such things on others and making doctrines out of them. We do not need to expound of what Paul said so eloquently. The scripture speaks for itself! Is pre-destination something that Yeshua preached while he was on earth? Is it in the Gospels? Did Yeshua seek to take all those by the sea shore and teach them pre-destination, or the good news that they too can inherit the kingdom of God? For sure he knew that all those who he preached to during his ministry would not all hear or follow him, but he came anyway. It is a beautiful thing to behold the simple and loving way of God. Why should this become a burden? He did not feel it necessary to explain such things to those he ministered to, and since we have NO power to make pre-destination our choice, why hold it up in such high esteem? Make sure that your pre-destination does not make you less charitable to those who are perishing!

  63. Niles said

    Djenk23, how are you going to live by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God by responding AS THOUGH I give no scripture for you to see, or consider. I wrote about half the scripture that I referenced. And the word salvation is “sozo” in the greek. means: to be taken from point “A” to point “B”, safe, and protected all the way. Salvation occures over the course of ones entire life. So, if Eden is the Lord’s, then the Lord will correct her as He does all His children, and you all should know by now that God’s Word hurts (like a fire, like a hammer, and sharper then any two edges sword…that’s why you willingly ignore the word of God that I sent, as though I sent no scripture – I repeat!

    You see, Djenk23, and Ind. Conservative,

    If Eden, or anyone of you, including myself (Niles) are the Lord’s ( His Sheep ), then God Himself will seal them, and deal with them (correct’s those He loves – Hebrews, Rev. 3:19-20)
    …I addressed a couple of issues as you may recall: I don’t know Eden (of course), but this I know that what Jesus said in Revelation 2:18-24 is true, and I Cor. 14:29-38 is true, and Rev. 22:18-19 is true, …IF ANY MAN ADDS TO THE WORDS OF THE THIS PROPHECY, GOD WILL ADD THE PLAGUES THAT ARE WRITTEN IN THIS BOOK, AND IF ANY MAN TAKE AWAY FROM THE WORDS OF THE BOOK OF THIS PROPHECY, GOD WILL TAKE THEIR NAME OUT OF THE BOOK OF LIFE…

    I’m simply repeating scripture in context: If any of us are “truly saved”, then sooner, or later, God will lead us to repentance, and that includes GETTING YOUR DOCTRINE STRAIT (II John 9-10…PLEASE READ IT THIS TIME- then argue with the Author – God!!. God Himself pleased the high priority of sound vs unsound doctrine, and the fact that our salvation rest upon the TRUTH of His Word…or Rev. 22:18-19 means nothing…and were playing games. Anybody REMEMBER Matt. 7….or Shall I say,,,anybody care?

    By the way I know Job, Kyle, and Angie care, but I know that those that have ears to hear what Spirit is saying to the churches will. And those that don’t, won’t. And it’s all the will of God…all those who go to heaven, and all those who don’t.

    And I apparently can’t speak to you, as I would to someone who’s spiritual, but as babe. Is that the class?

    Djenk23 said, that “Romans 10:9-10 is all one needs the know for salvation”. Man, I truly hope that you all give “www.graceandtruth.net” a good looking over, if you have the courage to see someone who knows God’s Word. (it will be obvious (to the humble).

    And is your responsibility to judge for yourselves weither or not Jim Brown’s doctrine (teaching) is of God, or not. I’ve already judge. And I say yes. Like Job, I recently came to that understanding as I listened to Jim Brown (www.graceandtruth.net), but it immediately bore witness in my word filled ( spirit filled ) heart.

    The reason that you haven’t judged correctly what I have said is this. It’s what you’ve been doing for many years now…IGNORING THE WORD OF GOD, SPOKEN OUT OF THE MOUTH OF HIS HOLY APOSTLES, AND PROPHETS…Paul, John, Zechariah, The Lord Jesus, …you are comfortable ignoring GOD’S WRITTEN WORD,…why should I expect you to PAY ATTENTION TO THE SCRIPTURE that I sent. When the very WORDS are in your bibles (your favorite bibles) right now.

    Just like the Lord Jesus was. You preachers (Djenk23, and Ind. Consv.) amaze me.

    I repeat: the 144,000 are the first fruits, the church, the body of Christ (maybe to you first don’t mean first), next in line is the harvest at the second half of the trib. a number that no man can number, from every tongue, nation, and tribe.

    And, knows who is who…and you can know to…if you knew I John (the first episle of John ).

    Someone male, or female can be taught false doctrine and believe it – as a babe tossed and fro with every wind of DOCTRINE, and slieght of man whereby they (false prophets, and false teachers) are lying in wait to deceive…Eph. 4:11-16.) If that babe, lamb, little sheep hears
    the truth of God’s Word correcting the error of their ways (unsound doctrine), they (God’s sheep will hear His voice.

    So, it all good….God has us all in His controll, believe it or not. …remember His is God.

  64. djenk23 said

    look…..first of all how can you speak on what I’ve been doing?…its probably better for you to stay in your lane about what I wrote and not what you THINK ive been doing or where I am spiritually…..believing predestination is NOT vital for salvation….you’ve just made another Gospel…I believe the Paul speaks against that…i’ve read plenty about predestination from Job, IC, pulpit-pimps.org, and others….and even then, none of those folks have went so far as to call anyones salvation into question because they question predestination….show me Bible that says that I’m not saved if I dont believe in predestination…..you’re about as bad as those folks who think that speaking in tongues is salvation..

  65. Djenk23 said:
    (regarding Niles)

    …you’re about as bad as those folks who think that speaking in tongues is salvation..

    He really is. But I think they are a little less arrogant.

  66. Charles D. said

    Niles

    The game is not whether you are right or wrong, I am not speaking to that at all. “Rather, the game is you had better not speak against anyone who has ever supported me, my positions, because they make me look smart and entelageent. After all I don’t quote scripture, I quote tripped-U”

    Thus not said the Lord, but, can you guess who?

    Good luck,

    Charles

  67. Diane said

    Niles, predestination as well as free-will is evident throughout scriptures.

    Calling people blind, unlearned, false teachers etc, based on your understanding or preferences brings God’s displeasure on yourself. I’m sure you agree that you have not apprehended all truth and are in need that the Holy Spirit lead you into the truth of Christ.

    John 5:38 but you do not have His Word abiding in you, because Whom He sent, Him you do not believe. :39 you search the Scriptures, for in them you THINK you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me. :40 but YOU ARE NOT WILLING TO COME TO ME (free-will)that you may have life.

    I know you are not calling our Master and Messiah bl***? These are His Words and what I believe. HE is light, in Him is no darkness.

    Your understanding of Rev 2 (I’m assuming your using that to speak against women teaching) is definitely not in line with what God is opposing. God has always opposed false prophets and prophetesses, so if you are condemning ALL women because THIS particular woman was teaching and seducing God’s servants to sin, then you would have to forbid ALL men to teach and condemn them to hell for the same reasons.

    I also hope you are not usurping the Authority of God our Father, Christ and the Holy Spirit to pour out HIS SPIRIT on His sons and daughters to fulfill His will for them to prophesy.

    For the LORD gave the Word and great was the host of women who proclaimed it! Psalm 68:11

  68. Angie said

    IC, something came to mind today after you’ve mentioned that predestination should be secondary teaching. I thought about what Paul said in Hebrews 5:12-14 today. If you give a babe in Christ hard teachings, they would become confused. You start with the basics of Jesus Christ until they are built up in the spirit to endure hard teachings. Therefore, you are right.

  69. Angie said

    Did Paul write Hebrews? I’m not sure.

  70. Angie – I’m glad you see why I said what I said.

    Regarding Hebrews, honestly nobody knows 100% for certain who wrote that book of scripture. Paul made it clear he put his name on everything he wrote in 2 Thessalonians 3:17. And Paul made it clear he was to minister to Gentiles, Romans 15:15-16.

    We do know that the writer of Hebrews knew Timothy, Hebrews 13:23. This is one reason many feel Paul wrote it, but this is not conclusive proof.

    Paul spoke of the rule of 2 or 3 witnesses and it’s in Hebrews 10:28, Paul mentions it in 1 Timothy 5:19.

    They were in need of prayers, Hebrews 13:18-19. Paul seemed to take plenty of punishment.

    Then there is the fact whoever wrote it spent time in Italy, Hebrews 13:24. That does provide more support for Paul being the writer, given he was imprisoned there. However, I don’t think it can be said that Paul was the ONLY saint ever to go to Italy and know Timothy.

    They OBVIOUSLY were NOT a Gentile convert.

    Historical papyrus evidence supports Paul being the writer of Hebrews, given the contents of P46.

    Lots of evidence to say Paul wrote it, but some to say maybe not.

    Just what if someone like Apollos wrote it? It’s totally not impossible.

    God had someone write it. Possibly Paul, but we don’t know 100% for certain.

  71. Charles D. said

    Angie,

    Since you don’t know the author of Hebrews, does that make you a babe in Christ? And your question has been out there since *:21PM and no response.

    Just an observation, no jab intended. Just wondering where all of the “helpful, caring minds are”

    Charles

  72. My comment is awaiting approval because it contains lots of reference links to support my statements in that comment. Once Job is up in the morning, if he approves it will appear then.

    Knowing who wrote Hebrews is not what I think God through Paul was getting at when he spoke of milk versus meat.

  73. Diane said

    Job,

    I agree that people in any group or denomination will manifest sinful behaviour. I made the statement because there is a false notion that there is security, vibrancy and all would be well if we were all reformed, when the truth is, there is plenty of barrenness, depravity and lovelessness there.

    I also started challenging people to see if what they were being taught lined up with the Words of Christ, and basically they wanted to believe what they were listening to on tv. There are a lot of things that Christ is saying to us as well, but we aren’t listening right now, but we will either be broken or crushed, because His Word is Truth. Demons tremble and fear, but men in all denominations act as if they can skip over the Words of Christ without suffering, we end up cleaning the outside of the cup but inwardly greed and wickedness. It comes out and no amount of scripture memorization, quoting, human zeal can mask it. Jesus says ” Without Me you can do nothing ” We must deny ourselves…… do I bless and not curse, do I bless and not revile, ….. May the Holy Spirit continue to lead us to deny ourselves take up our cross and follow Him. Our need is so great to hear His voice and obey. My need to learn of Him seems to become greater the longer I walk with Him.

    Some of those ministries that you mentioned are helpful, but there are extremes in their views that grieve the Holy Spirit and divide, such as the word “meditation” has practically become spooky, if you don’t worship with hymns written sooo long ago then that is considered wrong regardless of the lyrics and heart of the worshipper, and the administration and gifts of the Holy Spirit are downplayed, sometimes mocked, and treated as if we have no need for them (except for preaching and teaching).

    Where are the free-will websites that expose false teachers? Well, I don’t see alot of them out there, though I know of a few. But my view is that if a ministry doesn’t follow the leading of the Holy Spirit they won’t accomplish the will of Christ to preach His Gospel. I think we are waking up from slumber, but some ministries do mention the dangers of false teaching, but their emphasis is in proclaiming the truth, prayer, healing, serving others etc. Others will always find deficits in our lives and ministries, but may we continue to trust our Saviour and allow Him to challenge us to follow Him..

  74. Niles said

    To: Djenk, IC, Eden, Angie, Charles D., Diane and whoever of you out there that fear the Lord. I’m thankful (not sorry) our conversations have to end this way. …..according to you – fruitless.

    Luke wrote Hebrews. The fact I said it shall be enough to keep you from even considering it, no matter how clear my scripture support may be.

    I hope that you all start, or continue (since I don’t know your spirituality) praying the Psalms. I thank the Lord that I’ve had this opportunity to speak with such people as yourselves.

    I don’t have to wonder what Noah felt like, or Paul either for that matter…II Tim. 4:16-17.
    Paul said, at his FIRST answer no man stood with me, but all men forsook me: I pray God that it may not be laid to their charge (so do I). Not withstanding the Lord stood with me; that by me the preaching might be fully known, and all the gentiles (the gentile church) might hear…

    Can any of you say that you have been forsaken by all men (including, mother, brothers, sister, wife, children, friends), as with Noah, they all think as you do that I’m trippin. But, none of them can back up what they say with the Word of God. All of you that responded to my comments, have so little understanding of God’s Word…. No doubt your’e liked by many people, rather then being hated of all men, like the Lord Jesus said that His disciples would be.

    When you are pre-destinated to be God’s family, and you HEAR the truth of God’s Word, no matter what the topic may be: the rapture (pre, mid, or post), women, or men preaching/teaching false doctrine, money (I Tim. 6), or any subject of God’s Word, God’s sheep hear His voice…

    So, you don’t believe that the Lord Jesus speaks through me (Niles), that is just wonderful.
    I will always thank the Lord for choosing me to be His servant if nobody ever believes the same.

    Jesus said, IF you continue in His Word, THEN are you His disciple indeed, AND YOU WILL KNOW the truth, and the truth shall make you free… John 8:31-32

    So I did. (I know you strongly disagree). And, so it was with Jesus. And the servant (a servant in my case) is not above His master/Lord.

    Isaiah (the Paul of the O.T.) 56:10-12 ..His watchman are BLIND (oops, theres that word again):,
    they are ALL ignorant, they are ALL dumb dogs, they cannot bark (warn God’s people); sleeping, lying down, loving to slumber. Yes, they are greedy dogs which can never have ENOUGH (I Tim. 6), and they ARE SHEPHERDS THAT CANNOT UNDERSTAND: they ALL look to his own way (Prov. 33:5-7, Isa. 55), EVERYONE for his gain from his quarter…

    Was the prophet Isaiah arrogant? No, Isaiah spoke the word of God – period. And he said – all.
    And believe it, or not I was once blind, taught by the blind (Fred Price, K.E. Hagin, K. Copeland, etc. – all false prophets) Because, they mixed truth with lies, and that is how another gospel, another Jesus, another spirit is preached “by the way”, and those that preach it are accuresed. Because I fear the Lord, I will not add to, nor take away from His Word (the original text)…nor the plain speech that Paul, and all God’s servants in scripture spoke with.

    But listen, apparently I’m speaking to the wrong folks… Pardon me for obeying God. I wonder how all those people feel about Noah, Paul, Isaiah, and all God’s servants of old, NOW. Even though we know (or claim to know) Isaiah, Paul, John, Ezeikel, Noah obeyed God, the religious leaders of their day (for the most part) didn’t believe they (the apostles, and prophets of the Lord Jesus) obeyed God – at all… So, I’m in good company.

    My prayer is that God will open your eyes (as He has mine, Acts 26:1-29…Please read) to see the truth of His Word, as it is written. And, if you are His, He will…in answer to the prayers of His saints, according to His Word.

    Niles (Psalm 119:1-176). read this about a thousand times, who knows, the Lord may lead you to repentance, more, and more…until it’s no longer you that speaks, but Christ in you…that is being Christian. I John 2:6

    Dying to self daily, and taking your cross and following Jesus (living by, the Word of God), reading/feeding upon God’s Word, not books by preachers sold for their gain, not yours (II Peter 2:1-2).

    http://WWW.graceandtruth.net …if you haven’t hear Jim Brown, your shortchanging yourself of a blessing from the same Lord you say you believe in. All his tapes are free to anyone upon request.

    God the Father, the Lord Jesus, and His holy angels know how much I’ve for the Church over the years…according to His Word. And if you all pray to God, according to His Word also, and you don’t faint…and endure to the end (of the trib. I Cor. 15:51-52) And you obey all God’s commandments – everything His says through His servants…in His Word as He reveals it to you (guides you into all truth/light – no darkness at all, like I didn’t know that.) I would say that God had pre-destinated you to be His family… And if not, not. II John 9-10…Please read that thousands of times.

    I read Hebrews 5000 times in a row (that is called paying attention, or taking more ernestly heed to the promises, less I let them slip. I’m not bragging…God obviously put it in my heart to do so. So, I did.
    …and this is how I’ve come to know God’s Word so while over the years. I know you don’t believe it. So, I will be leaving you all alone now, so start rejoicing, you “students of the word.” Be perfected on your own…and not according to Ephesians 4:11-16.

    I didn’t address all said about me, or to me. But I read it all. All I know is that when I stand before the Lord, in that day (of Judgement). I won’t be ashamed (if, I obey Him as Paul and John did.) The Lord Himself told me, so. But, I didn’t understand why. He (the Lord) knew that I was blinded by the god of this world (through preachers, preaching another Jesus, or redefining God’s Word), so He told me in 1988 that if I prayed as He instucted to pray, that I wouldn’t be ashamed when I stand before Him. – And I believe Him.

    I hope that you all also pray a whole lot…according to God’s Word. We all will need the prayers of God’s saints, no doubt about it.

    P.S. Anybody’s spirituality is known by the measure of sound doctrine in their heart: Jesus said, out of the abundance of the heart, the mouth speaks. Matt. 12

    And, I Cor. 2:15 says, he that is spiritual judges all things (by what? the Word), yet, he himself is judge of no man.

    Niles.

  75. Fran said

    Niles, Don’t you know better to cast your pearls to the swine?

  76. Goodbye Niles Crane

  77. Angie said

    Charles D,

    I would say that it makes me observant regarding the author of Hebrews because I don’t know if we have different bibles or what, there is no author in mines. However, it is possible that Paul wrote it or any of the epistles and I have learned over the years that Paul is the possibility. I’ve never claimed to be a scholar or know everything, but as long as I have breath in me, I am still learning and His Spirit keeps me informed on things that He wants me to know.

  78. Charles D. said

    Niles, my Brother. My comment to you were not questioning your spirituality and were in fact intended as encouragement. Yet you painted your accusatory comments above with a broad brush and by so doing should be the first clue to you, that not only do you not speak for Christ, but you do not know very much about Him, or yourself for that matter! I will note below a few of your damning hereseys.

    But first, you continue to refer to “JimBrown” this and Jim Brown” that: are you talking about the ex-football player? I have to know! Please! Because if you are, I know exactly where you are in your spiritual life and more importantly why. But I digress…..

    A more sailant point is your very authoritative assertion that Luke wrote the Book of Hebrews. You can learn a lot from (my Babe in Christ Angie, because she is dead on RIGHT)! You made the below comment, then, I paid very little attention to anything else you had written because you are on a losing track; and your eyes are not sufficiently open to either see or recognize the truth. What makes you sinful is the brazen pomposity by which you proclaim that which you know nothing about.

    Now, regarding the Book of Hebrew, there is as much emperical evidence to suggest that Paul may have written the book. AND I hereby challenge you that you neither have nor have seen a Bible that says different! Period! If you knew anything about the Bible, in deed, history, then you would know that there was no agreement in the earliest centuries regarding Hebrews authorship. However, since the reformation it has been widely recognized that Paul could not have been it’s author. However, since Luke was a physician, and most of his writings were written from the “physical sciences” prospective, that maybe it was not Luke. We do not know and the Bible is silent on the issue. Whats important is the fact that Hebrews is contained in the living and breathing Word of God and was therefore inspired of Him to be written by man. The answer to that particular question, contributes in no way to either spreading the Gospel or to Salvation. Point Blank!

    “Luke wrote Hebrews. The fact I said it shall be enough to keep you from even considering it, no matter how clear my scripture support may be.”

    Remeber how the Bible says the Jews inscripted “King of the Jews” on the board above Christ’s head as He was crucified, but, did not realize at the time, how true those words were? Well you’ve done the very same thing below and I am sure you didn’t realize it as you wrote them. I am referring to the four word response that you wrote to your question below: “that is just wonderful.”

    “So, you don’t believe that the Lord Jesus speaks through me (Niles), that is just wonderful.”

    I do not know why you have such a self-persecution complex. I don’t know what happened in your life that make you treat both, God’s Word and your fellow man with so little disregard. I will pray for you brother.

    Charles

  79. Charles D. said

    Angie:
    I meant to insert “sister,” in my above comment. As in: my Babe in Christ Sister Angie. So don’t go all postal on me. There’s no win in doing that.

    In Christ

    Charles

  80. Angie said

    There’s no debate at all. However if I have to be a Babe in Christ, so be it. He consider us His children anyway. I see it as a daily journey to Christ.

  81. Eden Hadassah said

    Niles,
    Since you so like to be identified with other godly men, such as Paul, or Isaiah (you say that he is the “Paul of the old Testament? Careful man of letter and law! Or else some may think you believe in reincarnation by your improper references to two completely different men) I shall tell you the man I identify you with…Jonah.
    Will you deny this? Your bitterness of heart is astounding, and your over-weaning pride a burden to me. You can know all the word of God, but do you have the Heart of God, as his servant David did? You tell us to pray in the Psalms, but have you forgotten the Lord’s love so beautifully expressed through out the Psalms? What does it benefit you to read Hebrews 5000 times, if you yourself do not understand it’s meanings? Parrots do not carry on intelligent, meaningful fellowship. They only repeat what is spoken over and over. They squawak and whistle, calling attention to their beauty and their song, yet defecate their waste upon their Master’s property. Parrots are an unpredictable creation, for when the Master or servant reaches to touch, the parrot bites with strong beak, piercing through the hand that seeks to feed him.
    He must then be caged or his wings clipped, for what the Master has fed him, the parrot saw fit to spew digested matter all over the Master’s property. Be not a parrot, Niles, nor a servant that beat’s the Master’s servants. Your heart must be circumsised as well as your ears! A man of God does not need to defend himself, for the Lord’s word speaks for itself. I see you, and I have heard you very well. But you have not heard yourself, or understood your own conceit concerning “knowing” scriptures. This is very evident in how you speak of how well versed you are in scripture. I can not praise you for this, because they are the verses and sayings of God, and you have only repeated them. You did not write them. You don’t want credit for the word you speak do you? All praise belongs to the Lord of Hosts. You have taken the full armor of God, and flung it at us!
    I can not speak scripture at you, but from one servant to another, I can, however, hold out my hand in fellowship. There are many things that you have yet to learn of God. Your statement of not knowing where everyone is spiritually is the first indicator to me that you have not paid attention to a words that we have said, nor have you discerned anything at all. Your ears have been dull, and your heart calloused by your own voice and pride. You will never know where anyone is spiritually if you do not know where you are spiritually.
    From your words of boasting and pride, and your desire to be so identified with Paul, I must ask you, do you hold Paul greater than Messiah? You lift him up, and even the words he speaks, as though they were his own words. He is but a servant, yet you have exalted him as though he were Yeshua. I do not see Paul’s ways in you, nor do I see Isaiah’s ways, but I do see someone who has not yet come to know who they are in Yeshua. You are to be identified with him, not take up the lives of the saints as idols.
    You have laid claim to being a prophet, yet you did not recognize me? I am called of the Lord, and any prophet will know and discern the heart of another prophet. How could this escape your attention? It is not something that I announce to everyone, nor do I defend myself for the sake of self preservation or acknowledgement. But if you seek to have the heart of a prophet, you must first come to the end of yourself. You must allow the Lord to show you all the deepest secret motives of your own heart for what you preceive as good and evil about your ways. You must know your ways and be still before the Lord in silence so that he may speak to you. You must understand the difference between your own mind and the mind of Christ, and you must never confuse the two. You must seek to know and understand his heart as well as his words. You must walk with him daily in fellowship, and obey him. You must hide all his word in your heart as a treasure, and speak his words only when he says. There will be times when you will long to speak, but he will tell you to hold your tongue. And as his servant, you never forget you are a servant. He has pursued me, and inflicted me greatly, so that I would not turn from him. I have no money, nor am I allowed to make any, and nearly lost my life because of disobedience. I have suffered much loss of family and friends. He stripped me bare, afflicted my body, and chased me till I obeyed. In my affliction, I consider his discipline just and loving. Though he wounded me, yet I praise him for it, for all his ways are perfect. A prophet is but a servant, nothing more. He or she is no greater than any other servant, and the day that a prophet would seek to build himself up and throw his or her weight around, speaking in the name of the Lord, which is nothing more than taking his word in vain, is the time when he becomes silent, to wound again the heart and heal the prophet from such vanity.
    It is a difficult yet blessed life. It is a life of obedience and trust in the King of kings and the Lord of lords.
    Speak his words in humility, in the measure of faith that he provides you, and judge not the measure of faith that another servant has in comparison to your own. Know that you are loved dearly, and reflect that love to those around you.

  82. Angie, not sure if you knew that when a comment awaiting approval is accepted, it comes in higher up the thread of comments, to match the time that the comment was originally made. So my response to you is here.

  83. Job said

    Diane:

    I agree with pretty much everything that you said. I also agree that the “exposing false preachers” ministries often go too far; I have to stop dealing with them from time to time because of it. As far as the “meditation” thing goes … well the issue there is that you have a lot of New Age types who like us are VERY sincere in their beliefs and want to spread them because in their minds they are helping people and making the world a better place. Since New Age is a universalist religion, they see nothing wrong with pushing their beliefs on Christians under less than honest pretenses. If anything, they tell themselves, it makes us “better Christians” by liberating us from “the evils of fundamentalism” and opens our minds and whatever, making Christianity more tolerant, open minded, progressive, etc. That is the first threat. I don’t know how it is where you are from, but here in Atlanta there are tons of these “African New Age spirituality” types infiltrating these black churches. They promote that junk in the seminaries and Bible colleges that we have down here, and no one does anything about it because the worst label that can get applied to you in this city is “anti – black.” So, you had nonsense like the church that I was attending until recently would give regular time for this woman to perform her “traditional African nature dances” in every service, and then one Sunday they actually allowed her to speak (during black history month of course) and this woman gets up there and talks about how we should start worshiping Jesus the true way, the way that our African ancestors did before the white man came and made us slaves and imposed their way of worship on us, and that the true African way of worshiping Jesus was “by communing with nature” and other nonsense. Basically, the woman was in our church promoting animism. After that, I started keeping an eye on her, and noticed that she was never around during the sermon! One day, I was taking my kid to the little boy’s room during the sermon, and I saw her in the kitchen eating. Somehow, this woman knew that I was on to her, and she just looked at me and my kid with her cold eyes and said “I ALWAYS come here and eat during the sermon so I won’t have to wait in line to get my food when church is out.”

    Now the church had been going on fine before they started letting this woman do her thing and time to this woman, but shortly after it began to decline. Pretty soon my family and I stopped going, and not long after it collapsed, and the denomination had to reconstitute it. The sad thing is that this church was in an economically depressed area and was doing a lot of good with the poor, the homeless, foster kids, public housing residents, etc. They had even gotten to the point where they were giving college scholarships. Now all of that is gone. So yes, the first threat is people like that.

    The second threat are these preachers who will try anything to get people coming to their church and keep them coming. So if bringing New Age into the church is cool and hip and popular, they will do it. The church people want to be like the Hollywood crowd and the other mainstream celebrities that meditate and are into New Age like Oprah Winfrey. If Madonna was still a top celebrity instead of a has been, these folks would be trying to follow her into doing kabbalah and they would be bringing THAT into the church. Of course, there is a Biblical way to contemplate on God and His Word and to worship Him, but the Bible contains it. The overwhelming majority of the church folk that are meditating are following after the world and wanting church folk to accommodate it by calling it Christianity and acceptable. I suppose after 10 or 20 years it will be accepted and it will be impossible to tell legitimate Christian worship from the elements brought in from other religions. But when that happens these folks still won’t be satisfied … they will go running after the next worldly abomination.

    Hey, tell you what … try going to http://www.alittleleaven.com. As a matter of fact, try this portion of their site specificially: http://www.alittleleaven.com/christian_erotica/index.html. (It was from them that I got the idea to do the “Sex Sells Especially In The Church” category.) A Little Leaven also has their thing on “clown led worship”, which is a small but growing fad. Stuff like that is what Christians are going to be doing once this New Age fad dies out I bet.

  84. Niles said

    Eden H,

    You say that you (a woman) are a prophet (just as J. Bynum does). According to I Cor. 14:29-39, a prophet is a man (male)… period. And the fact that you (Eden) believe your a prophet (a male), and not a prophetess ( a female )… You may be honest enough to admit that I have scripturaly address this issue ( women & the 5 fold ministry don’t mix, meaning women are not apostles, prophets, evangelist, pastors, or teachers in the body of Christ – at all.

    SAYS: Revelations 2:18-24, I Timothy 2:7-14, Zechariah 5:1-11, I Cor. 11:1-16, …and THOSE ARE THE WORDS OF THREE PROPHETS: that agree, the Lord Jesus, the apostle Paul, and the prophet Zechariah…the spirit of the prophets (men), are subject to the prophets. But who is your spirtt subjected to the Word of God, or the example TODAY of men, and women that disregard the words, spoken out of the mouth of His apostles, prophets, even the Lord Jesus Himself. …as though the apostle Paul did not said these WORDS (THAT WE ARE TO LIVE BY..MATT. 4:4): in I Cor. 4:16 ..”Wherefore I (Paul) beseech you (wouldn’t “you”, be us, we, the Church.), be you followers of me. For this cause have I sent unto you Timotheous, who is my beloved son, and faithful in the Lord, who shall bring you into (what?) REMEMBRANCE OF MY (PAUL’S) WAYS WHICH BE IN CHRIST, AS I TEACH EVERY WHERE IN EVERY CHURCH. …and you Eden H. speak as though you have not READ: Romans 2:16…In that day WHEN GOD SHALL JUDGE THE SECRETS OF MEN (all mankind) by Jesus ACCORDING TO MY (PAUL’S) GOSPEL. …and you speak as though you’ve not READ: II Peter 3:15-16 …And account that the longsuffering of the Lord is salvation: EVEN AS OUR BELOVED BROTHER PAUL… I’ll let you READ THE REST ON YOU OWN.

    I PRAY THAT YOU START READING THE NEW T. A WHOLE LOT MORE ATTENTIVELY.

    Niles.

  85. Niles Crane decided to come back.

    As if we thought he’d keep his word…

  86. Eden Hadassah said

    Niles,
    Are prophets and prophetess’ pre-destined by God, or according to your limited understanding of scripture?
    I am under the authority of the Lord first, then my husband, who reads every one of my posts and others on the board. Would you seek to usurp the authority that the Lord has over me, or more over my own husband?
    I have no training in so-called five fold ministries, nor do I wish to even venture a guess as to the bondage they would seek to create. J. Bynum is not a prophet. I say prophet because we know she is a female, as I am a female, and prophet or prophetess alike are called by the same Lord. You struggle with something as simple as a word? As though I were trying to deceive you in some way.
    You are not subject to me, nor do I even try to hold any authority over you. If the Lord chooses to use a prophet, it is the word of God that must be obeyed, not the messenger. I am not a preacher either. Your own language barrier makes it next to impossible for you to even communicate effectively with others. When I read your posts, the only picture that comes into my mind is Jack VanImp. You talk just like him! Scripted bible knowledge does not an inheritance make.
    So are you rightly identified as one like Jonah?
    Will you continue to take the Lord’s holy scripture and use it for your own vanity and pride?
    You are turbulant as the waters my friend, and the fisherman will soon have to cast you over board for your reckless defiant disobedience to His command for your life (the one spoken to you 10 years ago). The Lord has great patience, although you will never seem to enjoy the beauty of what he provides for you, if you do not repent to him of your pride. How well would it be for you to understand the lesson of Jonah.

  87. HannahJ said

    Niles (comment 58), re John 3:16:

    So God only loved the predestined? He doesn’t love the degenerate sinners, of which each of us is chief? If He only loves the saved (or those who will be), then He is no better than Allah, who loves only “those who do good.” Through the atoning blood-lens of Christ, He loves all men. The world. Period.

  88. Eden Hadassah said

    Hannah,

    Niles needs to be untrained from his former cult leaders. He is still conformed to their image, and has not chosen to rid himself of the wounds inflicted by the cultic teachings that enslaved him. He has shaken some of it off, but the residue still remains. It is very difficult for those who were abused by a church, to let go of bitterness and the victim mentality. When they do not repent and also forgive, they become a perpetrator and take no accountability, by using scripture to back up their abuse, as though that would make spiritual abuse ok. They use biblical figures and personalities to further boulster their claim of “being right,” and excuse their rudeness. They usually have not even ventured into knowing who they are, because their eyes are so fixated on some key biblical figure they long to emulate. This comes from an avoidance of their own flaws and self-hate or even self-loathing often times. These are wounds that the Lord longs to heal, and to soothe.

  89. Charles said

    Niles:

    If you were at all serious about the scripture and the other things that you’ve been raving about for almost a week now; I fully expected a response/comment, or, at least an answer to my question about Jim Brown. You didn’t and now I know why.

    Listen paper tiger, I cannot say what you really believe or what you do not believe. I will say that if you are serious, then, get some help! Quickly. There is a serious price to pay for intentionally mis-quoting scripture. And if it’s just that you do not know any better than what you’ve spouted out here, then, stop it.

    You show signs of weakness in the things that you say and even your attack on others. You time would be better spent if you actually read the scriptures and ask Jim Brown to help you with those things that you do not truly understand; which is about all of them that you’ve referenced on this posting.

    I was serious about praying for you and I have; believe me. And its not because I think I’m in better stead than any other person here or that you’ve leveled your attack against. Christians have a responsibility to be serious about God and the things of God including his creation. You never respond to the things whereby you are proven wrong and that typify a sin disease.

    The most bold distortion that you still have not replied to is your assertion that a “very sinful man or person cannot seek Gods will and will not be saved.” I find that a horrible thing to say, and I pray that not one of God’s creatures see and believe that wrong and misleading statement, lest they go further astray.
    That is the same as saying “Christ blood washes away all sin, except, the sins of a sinful and reviled person”

    My Bible teaches that there is only one unforgiveable sin. You added three more to the list. Is that legalism or what? Albeit false legalism.

    Charles

  90. Eden Hadassah said

    http://www.spiritwatch.org/fivespabu.htm

  91. Diane said

    Job,

    I totally agree about the new age concerns, but as soon as a commenter would post a comment, on some of these websites, saying they “meditate on the Word of God” they would be branded. They would even quote from AW Tozer (one of my favorite preachers), and I would begin to laugh to myself because the kind of prayer life that he had would scare them. Tozer must definitely believed in contemplating and meditating on the Word of God. If a worship song repeated the chorus, then that would be considered “chanting”. A woman was a guest on the radio show saying “I started to hear the young man play the drums…” the foolishness of “drums are evil”, “they played Kum Ba Ya My Lord on the bongos”, “there’s no hymnals”. I laughed a lot but the paranoia was extreme.

  92. Job said

    Diane:

    You are right, there are excesses. That is why the Bible says not to turn aside to the right or to the left. I suppose that mixing Christianity with false religions is going to the right, and being a hateful fearful hypocritical false accuser is going to the left.

  93. Niles said

    To: Charles D, Eden H., Hannah J., Angie, and Job, also to Fran (who, I simply want to thank for her comment #75),

    For you Charles, Jesus said in Paul, “foolish and unlearned questions AVOID… Moreover, I gave you Jim Brown’s web address more than once…but whos pays attention to details? See, how simple it really is to point out your oversight Charles D. (as grammatically incorrect as my typing is)…but I’m not at all rude, when it comes to the knowledge of God’s Word… When we all stand before the Lord to give account for EVERY IDLE WORD that we have spoken, we’ll all see Charles D. how right you are NOT. …Then you all (that re-define God’s Word) will understand that it is God’s Word that He has been sowing in my heart for years…and for Eden H., …I left all the false doctrine of those I once followed years ago.

    You can listen to, read the books of, watch on T.V., the preachers of today (who mix truth with lies, and taught you to do the same…

    …I will continue to read the bible – only. …We’ll see who endures to the end.

    Jesus said, My mother, brothers, sisters are those that DO the will (the Word of God) of My Father which is in heaven. And II John 9-10 says that WHOSOEVER transgress and ABIDES NOT in the doctring of Christ, has NOT the Father, and the Son…. So, how can you (C.D.) call me “brother” in one breath, and the next call what I (Niles) speak “damning hereseys”, then say that you’ll pray for me(I’ve been praying for the Church, the body of Christ since 1980, so IF you a member (I Cor. 12) then I’ve been praying for you a lot longer. … When Paul the apostle said: in Titus… an heritic after the first, and second adminition reject. Not even my natural mother, brothers, and sister are my “brethern, family” unless they obey the Lord.

    I’m not an eloquent speaker, obviously not as skilled as Eden H., or Charles D., and of course Job and all of you from what I can read communicate very well…but I Cor. 2 comforts me in this matter. (maybe you should read it some time – E.H.) Oh, the Lord Jesus in (I Peter 1:11) Isaiah the prophet has something to say to all of you…PLEASE READ ALOUD/BOLDLY ALL 66 CHAPTERS of Isaish TO SEE WHAT THE LORD HAS SAID ABOUT THE STATE THE CHURCH IS PRESENTLY IN. …then you can argue with him (or, just IGNORE: Isa., Eze., Jer., the Word of God).

    And what I said C.D. is that God that leads a man, or woman to repentance. He put the desire to repent and draw near to Him in a lost sheeps heart (and of course their full of sin), but of God doesn’t put that deep desire to repent in one’s heart, no matter who they are, repentance will never occur. …Jesus said, NO MAN comes to the Father, but by Me. Jesus also said, that NO man knows the Father except the Son, and NO man knows the Son except the Father, AND whosoever the Son REVEALS Him (the Father) too.

    Not any of us choose WHO our natural father, or mother would be…that was God’s choice – alone.
    So it is with His family in heaven… God knows everything, moreover His planned everything that has, and ever will happen… to us all. God’s not almighty, everywhere present, and all-powerful for no reason…I Thess. 5:17, Eph. 5:20.

    Believe it or not (and you don’t) I’m a humble man, I know that I am nothing – at all, but a worm, dust, in my flesh dwells no goog thing – at all. At the same time, I’m not ashamed of the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of Him (Jesus, raised from the dead…Heb.7:25), God having opened the eyes of my understanding… I’ll continue to serve the God of all the apostles, and prophets of the holy scripture…

    And concerning any issue brought up by Eden H. or the others that have spoken to me…I descided to stop right here…because I’ve learned that the only thing you (C.D., Eden H., Djenk23, Diane, are interested in is TWISTing my words, as you also do the holy scriptures…II Peter 3:15-16, Prov. 30:5-6, Rev. 22:18-19…

    Lest you like I don’t pay close attention: PSALM 68:11 …doesn’t have the word “women” in it…
    IT DOES SAY THE FOLLOWING: THE LORD GAVE THE WORD; GREAT WAS THE COMPANY OF THOSE (“OF THOSE”, so why did Diane/#67 “CHANGE” the words?? I know she didn’t originaly, more likely it’s another translation – apparently… It’s still wrong…as least in the KJV.

    But I’m sure that mis-translations, that CHANGE the true/original text of God Word, doesn’t concern you very must…of course not.

    I fear the Lord… And humility is towards the Lord, not man. The Lord Jesus, and all God true serveant are perfect examples of my claim.

    We will SEE who stands during the 7 year Tribulation to the end…..(that is who will be saved, Jesus said)….???

    As much as within me is, I will be at peace with all men.

    I hope you all are praying the Psalms – aloud, continuously… In others words PLEASE sow God’s Word in your hearts…before it’s to late…

    …a little leaven (lies, false doctrine ), leavens the whole lump (the truth of God’s Word).

    Niles

  94. djenk23 said

    very wordy response….yet it still doesnt prove that predestination is vital for salvation…..how can you direct me to Jim Browns website for doctrinal matters in one breath and in another breath talk about how you will continue to read the Bible only?….it doesnt add up….but i dont feel like going in circles with you anymore so ill just repost this…

    Colossians 3:12-14

    12 Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;

    13 Forbearing one another, and forgiving one another, if any man have a quarrel against any: even as Christ forgave you, so also do ye.

    14 And above all these things put on charity, which is the bond of perfectness.

  95. Eden Hadassah said

    Niles,

    Why write a martyrs durge?
    I have not twisted your words or scripture, I just refuse to conform to your way of communicating. I will not talk at you with scripture to try to prove something.

    Only proud people call themselves humble. Didn’t you know that? They say things like “I was really humbled by that experience.” But it is a false humility that reveals a prideful nature.
    What kind of spiritual abuse did you endure? Your words speak personal pain, and your references to final judgement speak of final vindication. There is tenderness in God, and healing for all pain and tears shed. All I am saying is to shake off the dust of the last remaining strongholds over you from your early church experience. Remove your sandals, take a seat, and let others wash your feet. Others will long to have deeper fellowship with you, and share the love that God has shared with them.
    Do not be afraid. I am not against you, nor do I want to sway you into any thing untrue. I have simply reached out my hand in fellowship to you. Thank you for speaking more clearly in your last post, I appreciate it. It is personally offensive to me when someone speaks in biblical sentences and then puts the verses in brackets. It is offensive because it offers no real fellowship or love, only a wall of paper and ink.

  96. Charles said

    Brother Niles (okay, I address the brother thing that you asked, below):

    For the second time; you remind me somewhat of where I was some 38 years ago, so, it’s almost unfair in that I know where you’re going probably before you do.

    For clarity only; I will address only those issues where you have identified me as having offended you, or, that I have mis-represented scripture, yada..yada..yada.

    You sound as though I am in confederacy with those that you name in your last comments. Truth be told, I am probably less liked by them than you are right now. The difference between you and me is: I am perfectly comfortable standing on the Word of God and letting the proverbial chips fall where they may. The battle is not mine, it’s the Lord’s and I am secured in that fact.

    If you think that you are speaking for God or He is speaking through you, then, you are in for one big rude awakening. You do not and have not, point blank. As you tried to get a jibe in with your:

    “Charles D. how right you are NOT. …” comment, I know the effect you were trying to achieve with the little “hip-hop” slang on the end. But! What you actually achieve was letting everyone know that you still have a little “worldliness” in you, but I digress.

    My response to you is as follows:

    For you Charles, Jesus said in Paul, “foolish and unlearned questions AVOID…”

    I am unable to find a Bible with a Book of Paul. Then, you had the temerity to follow-up with: “but whos pays attention to details? See, how simple it really is to point out your oversight Charles D.” Now see, that’s a remarkable example of [No manner of weapon formed against me shall prosper]. You certainly do not pay attention to details. You very truthfully say, albeit incorrectly that: “(as grammatically incorrect as my typing is)”

    You would have been correct to say: as grammatically incorrect as my SPEAKING is” but by this time I’d had enough of being Mr. Nice Guy, so, when you followed up with: “…but I’m not at all rude,” my flip response was: nor are you smart, you butcher the English Language, and your punctuation could use some work.

    I can say all of that and still profess to love my God (and I do), because none of those things are sins unto death. Thing is, on your best day, when it comes to things of the Bible, you’re left wanting.

    “When we all stand before the Lord to give account for EVERY IDLE WORD that we have spoken, we’ll all see Charles D. how right you are NOT. …Then you all (that re-define God’s Word) will understand that it is God’s Word that He has been sowing in my heart for years…and for Eden H., …I left all the false doctrine of those I once followed years ago.”

    Can you hear the self-willed pride in your aspirations? Being proven right is more important to you than saving souls, or, wishing fellow believers well. Why would you want to appear righteous before God, while any believer might be condemned? Don’t you know that a liar cannot tarry in the sight of God? Do you think you can pull a fast one on God? Don’t you know that since the dawn of creation He knew that I would be writing these very words to you, here and now? Wake-up,!! Please!!!

    Then you ask: “So, how can you (C.D.) call me “brother” in one breath, and the next call what I (Niles) speak “damning hereseys”, then say that you’ll pray for me (I’ve been praying for the Church, the body of Christ since 1980,..)” Okay, last things first. If you’ve been praying since 1980, then you’re slow! Either that or your prayers are lagging, lacking, or both. I can call you brother because I care. I can call what you speak damnable heresies, because they are and that proves I care even more so. If I didn’t care I could give a hoot whether you go to hell in a hand basket or whatever.

    The questions you have to ask yourself are: Are you right? No. Do you make mistakes about scriptures and life in general: absolutely. Are you saved? That is my concern, but, none of my business. It is between you and God, exclusively. Can you do things now, to enhance your chances of being saved according to what you have demonstrated on these pages? You betcha!

    In Christ,

    Charles

  97. Eden Hadassah said

    My next entry will be from the little book “Gems from Tozer”

    “Error and Truth Travel the Same Highways”

    There are areas of Christian thought, and because of thought then also life, where likenesses and differences are so difficult to distinguish that we are often hard put to escape complete deception. So skilled is error at imitating truth that the two are constantly being mistaken for each other.
    It is therefore critically important that the Christian take full advantage of every provision God has made to save him from delusion. These are prayer, faith, constant meditation on the scriptures, obedience, humility, hard serious thought and the illumination of the Holy Spirit.
    These are the times that try men’s souls. The latter times are upon us and we cannot escape them; we must triumph in the midst of them. (1 Tim. 4:1-2)
    Strange as it may seem, the danger today is greater for the fervent Christian than for the lukewarm and the self-satisfied. The seeker after God’s best things is eager to hear anyone who offers a way by which he can obtain them, particularly if it is presented by someone with an attractive personality and a reputation for superior godliness.
    Now our Lord Jesus, that great Shepherd of the sheep, has not left His flock to the mercy of the wolves. He has given us the Scriptures, the Holy Spirit and natural powers of observation. “Prove all things; hold fast that which is good,” said Paul (1Thess. 5:21). “Beloved, believe not every spirit…” wrote John(1John 4:1). “Beware of false prophets…Ye shall know them by their fruits,” our Lord warnd (Matt 7:15-16)
    For those who want a rule by which they can test everything I make available here a little secret by which I have tested my own spiritual experiences and religious impulses for many years.
    Briefly stated the test is this: This new doctrine, this new religious habit, this new view of truth, this new spiritual experience-how has it affected my attitude toward and my relation to God, Christ, the Holy Scriptures, self, other Christians, the world and sin. By this seven fold test we may prove everything religious.
    1. One vital test of all religious experience is how it affects our relation to God, our concept of God and our attitude toward Him. Any doctrine, any experience that serves to magnify Him is likely to be inspired by Him.
    The heart of man is like a musical instrument and may be played upon by the Holy Spirit, by an evil spirit or by the spirit of man himself. Religious emotions are very much the same, no matter who the player may be. Many enjoyable feelings may be aroused within the soul by low or even idolatrous worship. The nun who kneels “breathless with adoration” before an image of the Vergin is having a genuine religious experience. She feels love, awe and reverence, all enjoyable emotions, as certainly as if she were adoring god. The mystical experiences of Hindus and Sufis cannot be brushed aside as mere pretence. Neither dare we dismiss the high religious flights of spiritists and other occultists as imagination. These may have and sometimes do have genuine encounters with something or someone beyond themselves. In the same manner Christians are sometimes led into emotional experiences that are beyond their power to comprehend. I have met such and they have inquired eagerly whether or not their experience was of God.
    The big test is, What has this done to my relationship to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ? (Rev. 4:11)
    2. The next test is, How has this new experience affected my attitude toward the Lord Jesus Christ? Whatever place present-day religion may give to Christ, God give Him top place in earth and in heaven. He must stand at the center of all true doctrine, all acceptable practice and all genuine Christian experience. Christless Christianity sounds contradictory but it exists as a real phenomenon in our day.
    Again, there are psychic experiences that thrill the seeker and lead him to believe that he has indeed met the Lord and been carried to the third heaven; but the true nature of the phenomenon is discovered later when the face of Christ begins to fade from the victim’s consciousness.
    If on the other hand the new experience tends to make Christ indispensable, if it takes our interest off our feelings and places it in Christ, we are on the right track. What ever makes Christ dear to us is pretty sure to be from God. (Matt. 3:17, Acts 2:36, 4:12, John 14:6.)
    3. Another revealing test is, How does it affect my attitude toward the Holy Scriptures? Did this new experience, this new view of truth, spring out of the Word of God itself? Whatever originates outside the scriptures should for that very reason be suspect until it can be shown to be in accord with them. However high the emotional content, no experience can be proved to be genuine unless we can find chapter and verse authority for it in the scriptures. (Isaiah 8:20)
    Whatever is new or singular should also be viewed with a lot of caution. Over the last half century quite a number of unscriptural notions have gained acceptance among Christians by claiming that they were among the truths that were to be revealed in the last days. The truth is that the Bible does not teach that there will be new light and advanced spiritual experiences in the latter days; it teaches the exact opposite. Beware of any man who claims to be wiser than the apostles or holier than the martyers of the Early Church.
    While true power lies not in the letter of the text but in the Spirit that inspired it, we should never underestimate the value of the letter. The text of truth has the same relation to truth as the honeycomb has to honey. One serves as a receptacle for the other. But there the analogy ends. The honey can be removed from the comb, but the Spirit of truth cannot and does not operate apart from the letter of the Holy Scriptures. For this reason a growing acquaintance with the Holy Spirit will always mean an increasing love for the Bible.
    4. Again, we can prove the quality of religious experience by its effect on self-life. The Holy Spirit and the fallen human self are diametrically opposed to each other. (Gal 5:17) Before the Spirit of God can work creatively in our hearts He must have our full consent to displace our natural self with the Person of Christ. This displacement is carefully explained in Romans 6,7 and 8.
    A good rule is this: If this experience has served to humble me and make me little and vile in my own eyes, it is of God, but if it has given me a feeling of self-satisfaction it is false and should be dismissed as emanating from self or the devil. Nothing that comes from God will minister to my pride or self-congradulation.
    5. Our relation to and our attitude towrd our fellow Christians is another accurate test. Sometimes an earnest Christian will, after some remarkable spiritual encounter, withdraw himself from his fellow-believers and develop a spirit of faultfinding. He may be honestly convinced that he is now in an advanced state of grace, and that the “hoi polloi” in the church where he attends are but a mixed multitude. This is a dangerous state of mind, and the more dangerous because it can justify itself by the facts. The brother has had a remarkable experience. It is not that he is mistaken in his facts that proves him to be in error, but that his reaction to the facts is the flesh. His new spirituality has made him less charitable. Any religious experience that fails to deepen our love for our fellow Christians may safely be written off as spurious. (1 John 3:18-19, 4:7-8, 5:1, John 13:35)
    6. Another certain test is this: Note how it affects our relation to and our attitude toward “the world.” I do not mean, of course, the beautiful order of nature. Neither do I mean the world of lost men. (John 3:16). Certainly any true touch of God in the soul will deepen our appreciation of anture and intensify our love for the lost. I refer here to the world of carnal enjoyments, of godless pleasures, of the pursuit of earthly riches and reputation and sinful happiness-in short, unregenerate human society romping on its way to hell, the exact opposite of the true Church of God. (1 John 2:15-17, 2 Cor. 6:14). Any spirit that permits compromise with the world is a false spirit. Any religious movement that imitates the world in any of its manifestations is false to the cross of Christ and on the side of the devil.
    7. The last test of the genuineness of Christian experience is what it does to our attitude toward sin. What ever makes holiness more attractive and sin more intolerable may be accepted as genuine. (Tit. 2:11-13)
    Jesus warned, “There shall arise false christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they should deceive the very elect.” (Matt. 24:24) These words describe our day too well to be coincidental.
    The farther we push into the sanctuary the greater becomes the danger of self-deception. The deeply religious man is far more vulnerable than the easy-going fellow who takes his religion lightly. This latter may be deceived but he is not likely to be self-deceived.
    Most men, indeed, play at religion as they play at games, religion itself being of all games the one most universally played.
    The unattended garden will soon be overrun with weeds; the heart that fails to cultivate truth and root out error will shortly be a theological wilderness.
    A bit of healthy disbelief is sometimes as needful as faith to the welfare of our souls. It is no sin to doubt some things, but it may be fatal to believe everything. Faith never means gulliblity. Credulity never honors God. The gullible mentality is like the ostrich that will gulp down anything that looks interesting. I have met Christians with no more discrimination than the ostrich.
    The healthy soul, like the healthy blood stream, has its proper proportion of white and red cells. The red corpuscles are like faith: they carry the life-giving oxygen to every part of the body. The white cells are like disbelief: they pounce upon dead and toxic matter and carry it out to the drain. Thus the two kinds of cells working together keep the tissues in good condition. In the healthy heart there must be provision for keeping dead and poisonous matter out of the life stream. This the credulous person never suspects. He is all for faith.
    Along with our faith in God must go a healthy disbelief of everything occult and esoteric. Numerology, astrology, spiritism, and everything weird and strange that passes for religion must be rejected. All this is toxic matter and has no place in the life of a true Christian. He has Christ, and He is the way, the truth and the life.

    (Please forgive any typo’s)

  98. Angie said

    Niles,

    I don’t remember judging you or conversing with you but thanks for reminding me that we should keep God’s word in our hearts and I pray to God that I can endure to the end.

  99. GOSPEL LETTER.

    Mysteries

    “But blessed are your eyes for they see; and your ears for they hear.” {Matthew 13v16}.

    Jesus spoke these words to His disciples and to all who would follow Him. Now many people today in the world find it very hard to understand and to accept God’s Word, some try to change it by bringing out different translations, but I believe that they who do such things are standing on very dangerous ground.

    For I am reminded of God’s Word, “For I testify unto everyman that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.” {Revelation 22 v 18 & 19}.

    Yes indeed, blessed are our eyes, and our ears as Jesus said, now there are things in the scriptures which are hard to understand, but we must remember we are not always ready to receive such knowledge. The Word of God needs to mature in us, and then it will be ripe enough for us to eat, so the things you do not understand, really do not matter at all. For soon all things will be revealed to us. The Holy Ghost is in the process of making the mysteries of His Word known to you and me, for they have been hid from the past ages and generations, but are now made visible to God’s children in these last days. I believe that we will be amazed at the things that our Lord will show us in the ages to come, for we know that His knowledge is infinite, and we also know the greatest mystery of all, “which is Christ in you the hope of glory.” {Colossians 1 v 27}. May the Lord reveal more of His mysteries in Christ to us all, as we study His eternal and glorious Word.

    Jesus said, “I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when He, the Spirit of truth, is come, He will guide you into all truth: For He shall not speak of Himself but whatsoever He shall hear, that shall He speak: And He will show you things to come.”
    {St John 16 v 12 & 13}.

  100. stevoyo said

    I strongly agree with post #99. While I’m in strong opposition those who in this post have brazenly attempted to force their close minded theory of predestination and warped view of God’s sovereignty despite the myriad of Scriptural references that lift a great big stop sign to such reasoning. Such strong conclusions have been deducted from a Biblical dialogue that concludes by saying “O the depths of the riches of both the wisdom and the knowledge of God! how unsearchable are His judgements and His ways past finding out! For who has known the mind of the Lord? or who has been His counselor?” (Romans 11:34).

    Those who support the theory of predestination combined with the false doctrine of eternal hell fire serve a pagan god different from the One presented in the infallible Scripture!!! A god of the likes of Baal and Zeus! Indeed by believing in these two doctrines you believe that God simply brings into existence certain innocent and choiceless creatures for the sole purpose of subjecting them to an eternal state of unbearable suffering and torture, to writhe through countless ages in the intense heat of undying flames! Blessed and highly favored indeed are the cattle and the dumb beast who have no soul that by chance might have been “chosen” to such a miserable eternal existence.

    O dreadful blasphemy! Yeah what doctrine of devils! You take one passage and build a reasoning which ignores the entirety of Scripture to form a teaching of Divine salvivic elitism. Before I proceed I would caution you who so heroically defend this doctrine of predestination to carefully consider the words of Christ in Matthew 12:36, “I say unto you, that every idle word that men shall speak, they will give account thereof in the day of judgement.” On this topic it is preferable to conclude with a statement of “I’m still searching and open I’m to suggestions” rather than put your foot down and preach such a shaky theory. For indeed such teachings have turned millions of humble truth seekers into brazen infidels!

    I wish those who confidently teach predestination from Romans chapter 9 would meditate upon verse 21-23 of this chapter. “What if God, willing to show His wrath, and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: And that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had afore prepared unto glory?” This statement alone makes it clear that Paul is by no means saying that he has a firm grasp on how God exercises His sovereignty. Perhaps God, though He wanted to and was going to punish the vessel of wrath, waited with much longsuffering to see if that unworthy vessel would turn from its wickedness and choose life. READ YOUR BIBLES CAREFULLY, and it would save you from coming to such grievous conclusions. Verse 21 employs the analogy of the Potter and the clay an analogy that Paul is pulling from Jeremiah 18:1-11. If you read that text in conjunction with Romans 9 you would have a more accurate glimpse into how God’s sovereignty works. From Jeremiah we can see that even the vessels prepared unto mercy if it be “marred in the hand of the Potter” can be made again into another vessel, even a vessel fitted to wrath.

    “The instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, to pull down, and to destroy it, if that nation against whom I have spoken turns from its evil, I will relent of the disaster that I thought to bring upon it. And the instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it, if it does evil in My sight so that it does not obey My voice, then I will relent concerning the good with which I said I would benefit it.” Jer 18: 7 – 10

    The point the Bible is making concerning God’s sovereignty is that regardless of what choice we make God will ultimately “work all things together” to His glory. He will work the path of every choosing being to fit in perfectly to the climatic ending of the saga between good and evil, when “Every knee will bow and every tongue confess that Jesus is Lord to the glory of God the Father”, then will all the saints sing in utmost conviction, “Just and True are all thy ways, Thou King of saints”. “A man’s heart plan’s his way, but the Lord directs His steps” (Proverbs 16:9). The Word of God is clear from Jeremiah, If we choose (or plan) a way of evil, God will ultimately direct our steps to calamity, showing in the disobedient His wrath. But if we trust in the Lord with all our hearts, and lean not on our own understanding, acknowledging Him in all our ways and plans, “He will direct our paths” to glory and honor (Proverbs 3:6). How this pattern works in every instance will be a mystery as long as we are on earth.

    Now, I have yet to read a logical Biblical defense for this utterly foolish argument in comment #27:

    “If God wants everyone to be saved then they would be saved and you’d have universal salvation (”Universalism”) because the Almighty God of the Holy Bible is a sovereign God. However if God wants everyone to be saved, but yet they are not saved, then He is not a sovereign God after all because His will can be thwarted by something outside of Himself.”

    Can you not see that you are restricting God to your interpretation of what His sovereignty should be instead of accepting the Biblical interpretation of God’s sovereignty? Have you not read Isaiah 5, where God explains in the beginning of the chapter that He planted and watered a vineyard (Israel and Judah) with the intent of reaping good fruit but instead He found wild fruit? “What could I have done more to my vineyard that I have not done unto it, when I looked that it should bring forth grapes, and it brought forth wild grapes.” (verse 4). Therefore He said He would “lay it waste” and not prune it or dig it. Have you not beheld our Lord weeping atop the Mount of Olives over a people who refused to accept His offer of love and protection? Were those tears of Christ just theatrics (the Greek word for such a thing is hypocrisy) or was it that He was weeping because His heart of justice coupled with His sovereignty would turn this city, intended to be something so beautiful for God, into a smoldering heap because of their poor choices? A vessel of mercy to a vessel of wrath? Why doesn’t your view of God’s sovereignty allow for Him to offer His creations a choice (for love cannot be sincere unless a person makes a choice to love out of their own free will) and if they choose contrary to His suggested path, does God not posses the power to still work all things together for His glory? And why is it that you are always pointing people to all these articles? Why not a link to Bible Gateway to defend from the Bible such a grave theory? Those external links are no good to you or to anyone else unless they enable the reader to describe their conclusions in a simple understandable way from the Bible.

    In conclusion I cite a very important Bible text for such topics:
    “The secret things belong to our God: but those things that are revealed belong unto us and our children forever…” Deuteronomy 29:29. The things that are revealed are plain: “It is the Father’s good will to give you the kingdom”(Luke 12:31), the Lord is “not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance. 2 Peter 3:9, God would “have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth” 1Timothy 2:4, “God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. John 3:16. And with all that God is still finds a way to be sovereign. How He does it – that belongs to our God, and venturing into that territory amounts to wresting the Scripture to our own destruction.

  101. Congratulations! Another arminian convert to calvinism. Many educated arminians are waiting to greet you as you join them boasting in their spiritual pride of having greater knowledge than their less learned arminian brothers.

  102. Eden Hadassah said

    Stevoyo,
    Most beautifully said. Thank you for yet another God honoring post!

    Be blessed. 🙂

  103. stevoyo said

    Eden: May you also be blessed.

    “If we walk in the light, as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, His Son, purifies us from all sin.” (1 John 1:7)

  104. netflix said

    It’s in fact very complicated in this active life to listen news
    on Television, therefore I just use world wide web for
    that purpose, and get the newest news.

Leave a Reply

Fill in your details below or click an icon to log in:

WordPress.com Logo

You are commenting using your WordPress.com account. Log Out /  Change )

Google photo

You are commenting using your Google account. Log Out /  Change )

Twitter picture

You are commenting using your Twitter account. Log Out /  Change )

Facebook photo

You are commenting using your Facebook account. Log Out /  Change )

Connecting to %s

 
%d bloggers like this: