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Someone Explain Amillennialism To Me

Posted by Job on October 27, 2007

It appears that preterism is a manifestation of amillennialism. If I am correct, amillennialism holds that the 1000 year rule of Jesus Christ refers to Christ currently ruling NOW from heaven, and that the 1000 years is merely a metaphor for “a very long time.” I do not have a problem with 1000 years not being taken literally. What I have a problem with is the fact that Revelation seems to say that Jesus Christ will physically return, defeat the anti – Christ and the false prophet, and set up a kingdom on earth for a time, and at the end of that time will be the final destruction of ALL God’s enemies, including Satan and death.

Saying that Revelation 19 – 20 refers to Christ’s FIRST advent and that His rule of the earth takes place NOW by virtue of the saints preaching the gospel … does that not defy what Paul wrote in Ephesians? If Christ is ruling from heaven and Satan is bound, then why do we need to contend against Satan’s kingdom with the full armor of God? And if you want to interpret the Bible allegorically, that is fine. But amillennialism holds that Revelation 19 and Revelation 20:8-15 describe a singular Day of the Lord, but Revelation 20:1-7 refer to conditions that have existed ever since the Day of Pentecost!

Now take away the fact that it is totally inconsistent with the literary narrative in a way that nothing else written by John (or anything else in the Bible) approaches, even in Revelation, then it is ALMOST ACCEPTABLE if one buys that Satan being “loosed a little season” in Revelation 20:3 refers to the great tribulation. This link does say that Satan being “bound” in this dispensation means that He cannot bring in the full anti – Christ system as of yet. But even altering the chronology of the narrative in such a destructive way does not account for the text explicitly saying that Christ Himself would physically return and rule the nations with a rod of iron! Suggesting that the Body of Christ would do so until the great tribulation completely denies everything that Christ said not only in the Gospel of John about the tough road of persecution, marginalization, and rejection that lay ahead for the church, but also those very same things in Revelation 2 and 3.

Now amillennialists are correct in arguing that pre – tribulational dispensationalism creates a dangerous theological and political mindset for the church. Watching John Hagee in action, that has become my own personal belief. But is not conservative dominionism and triumphialism, manifest destiny, due to the notion that Christians can rule the world for Christ Jesus? That with the combined power of the church and state, we can subdue the infidels – excuse me, unbelievers – and crush the opponents of Jesus Christ through worldly means? Now of course George W. Bush is NOT a Christian, but though his adventure in Iraq is often blamed on premillennial dispensationalism, the notion that he can go over there and spread “western values and democracy” (which let us face it the religious right uses as a proxy for Christianity) seems a lot more like amillennial triumphialism to me. And then of course there is the “social gospel” of the “Christian” left that we saw so quickly and easily morph into liberation theology, socialism, communism, and political deism.

My theory for the origin of amillennialism: traditional scholarship until recently held that the Book of Revelation was written very late (as late of 96 AD) and not widely circulated until still later. By that time, the early church had come up with endtimes doctrines without it, and those doctrines were what can be considered proto – amillenialism. It is well known that when the early church WAS confronted with Revelation, they did their best to dismiss it. Attempts were made to leave it out of the canon, and when that failed there was an attempt to claim that it was not written by the apostle John, but another John. The latter effort was an attempt to say that the book had a useful spiritual purpose, but IT IS NOT LIKE THE THINGS DESCRIBED IN IT ARE ACTUALLY GOING TO HAPPEN!

The sticking point was always Revelation 20:1-7. The given reasons was that it was “too materialistic” (meaning describing the coming Kingdom of God in natural terms, a physical Christ ruling over a natural earth rather than a spiritual or eschatological one) and “too Jewish” (for Jewish eschatology had long centered around a Davidic king Messiah ruling the natural earth – and the lion shall lay down with the lamb and you shall have many bountiful harvests as said in Isaiah and similar). But the real reason was that Revelation 20:1-7 contradicted what had been established church doctrine for decades. What amillennialism does is resuscitate the endtimes doctrines that existed PRIOR to Revelation.

What this does, in effect, to exclude Revelation from the canon by claiming that it contains no new information, and return the church to the state that existed before Revelation was written; before the Revelation to John was given. It functionally claims that the canon was ACTUALLY complete and finalized with the revelation from God to man finished with the prior 65 books. I am not making this up: one of the main arguments used in support of amillennialism by that very link is that the millennium is mentioned nowhere else in scripture!

While I understand that scripture must confirm scripture, there are plenty of very important things historical and theological in the Bible that are only mentioned or referenced in one place, and the Gospel of John is a huge repository of them. Instead, the things in the Revelation that DO correlate strongly to the other places in the Bible are used to establish the few things that DO NOT, i.e. Revelation 20:1-7, as being true. That is a consistent principle of Bible interpretation that for some strange reason is only abandoned in this one passage to suit this one doctrine.

Since Revelation is forbidden from revealing any actual new information of significance save the vision of Jesus Christ by amillennialism, the doctrine accomplishes what the early church dissenters failed: keeping the Bible down to 65 books. And not ENTIRELY incidentally, amillennialism completely removes the nation and people of Israel from having any significance whatsoever in current or future events, which would seem to contradict Paul’s statement that God has not cast aside His people but rather is instead still dealing with and has plans for them in Romans.

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76 Responses to “Someone Explain Amillennialism To Me”

  1. johnkaniecki said

    Healtheland,

    Could you please direct me to the statements in Revelation where it says specifically Jesus will return physically to Earth before the thousand year reign.

    I have given this matter some thought and I need help. Because of various scriptures,I saw the events foretold by the Bible in two parts. One event would be the thousand year reign and the other would be the end of time.

    It is my own personal thoughts, without very thorough investigation that the end of time would be the return of Jesus where the Christian would meet those who passed on in the air. This is because or scripture in Thessalonians and the seperation of the sheeps and the goats as told by Jesus.

    I know also recall Revelation talks about two resurrections and I believe it mentions that the resurrection of everyone comes after the first. After the second resurrection would be the end of the Earth where it would be destroy by fire.

    At the thousand year reign will Jesus be here physically ruling on Earth, in the temple perhaps, in Jerusalem perhaps, or will He not be here physically? To avoid confusion I know God is in control of everything but as of yet He has does not rule this Earth through a political system. That is the world governments as they exist serve themselves and not Jesus.

    I am prepared to present scriptures but that would involve more time than I can do right now. My wife is returning from Grenada tonight and I have lots to do, especially to get some sleep.

    Love,

    John

  2. johnkaniecki: Wow, you have harmed my little discourse already. Well, this IS what I asked for! I am going to have to do some editing to reflect your successful challenge.

  3. johnkaniecki said

    Healtheland,

    Revelation 20 talks about the two ressurections. There is the first ressurection, the thousand years when Satan is loosed, and then the second ressurection. Note Revelation 20:4 the first ressurection and compare it to 20:12 the second ressurection. The first is not for judgement but for those who were beheaded and neither received the mark of the beast. The second ressurection is for judgement and “stand before God”. God is clearly present at the second ressurection. After the first ressurection they reign with Christ for a thousand years and they are priests of God and Christ but I fail to see Jesus physically present.

    I see the second ressurection as the return of Christ because all of the dead are raised. This must refer to the saved and unsaved because some will be cast in the lake of fire. Revelation 20:15.

    I Thessalonians 4:13 the chapter starts to talk about the Lord’s return. These verses among other things teach that “the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven.” “the dead in Christ shall rise first.” “and so shall we ever be with the Lord.”

    The Lord descends from heaven so he’s not on Earth. The dead in Christ shall rise first, so this must be the second ressurection, and comfortingly and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

    Finally Mathew 25 begining at verse 31 until the end of the passage talks about the sheeps and the goats. Verse 31 “When the Son of Man shall come in his glory, and all the angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of His glory.” Jesus sits on his throne, the angels come with him. Now look at verse 46 the last verse in this teaching unit referred to as the sheeps and the goats. “And these shall go away into ever lasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.” So I conclude this must be the second resurrection based on Revelation 20 where the second resurrection is for everybody. Jesus now sits on His throne not conclusive proof He wasn’t physically there before but He now is on His throne.

    Now comes something more complicated.
    Now read Isaiah 65:20 where it talks about the sinner dying at a hundred years and being considered accursed. Since there is death this can’t be talking about eternity because Death will be cast into the lake of fire in Revelation 20:14. I believe this part of Isaiah talks about the thousand year reign of Christ. Yet Isaiah 65:17 says “For behold, I will create new heavens and a new Earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind. Now verse 18 “But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy.” This tells me that a New Heavens and a New Earth will come, (Revelation 21) but they “shall be glad and rejoice forever in that which I create”. (Does this “gladness and rejoicing” talk about the New Heavens and New Earth or that in what God had created.) Two verses later people are dying so I tend to think it refers to what He has created. (I would look at the original Hebrew, which could clear it up but I can’t read it. Also my parallel Bible with NIV,Living Bible, and New Revised Standard sheds no light.)

    My final point by looking at Isaiah is to note the difference between the thousand year reign of Christ and Eternity with the New Heavens and the New Earth. The thousand year reign will not be a homongenous group of believers. Clearly in the thousand years Christ will reign but it is not going to be like Heaven. In the thousand years as death still exists as does sin there will be problems and such. But Christ who reigns, and I believe he does this through a government he establishes will not be a perfect government. Nor will the thousand year reign not include, Hindus, Muslims, Communists or whatever. These people will have gone through the tribulation and survived. Most will have received the Mark of The Beast (Revelation 13:18) and not be qualified to have any power on the criteria alone. (Not to mention they don’t serve Christ.)

    Heaven on the other hand will be perfect, sinless and with God in glory.

    An understanding of this concept greatly empowers and encourages the Christian. For they know that if during the tribulation if they are faithful and are slain that at the first resurrection they will then reign for the thousand years. This time I believe will bring many to Christ and be the most the wonderful time for all. (Those born later and not having received the Mark of the Beast.) Also the entire system will be one that is God glorifying and actually ruled by Christ, though I must conclude not physically present on Earth. (Unless He is in the temple which I don’t care to discuss now.)

    Let me say this discussion and the website has been such a blessing. Particurally today it has kept me from giving into temptation and has allowed me to put my time into something God glorifying.

    I’d like to ask whether the story about Lazarus and the rich man is a parable or a historical reality.

    Now I will go get more sleep perhaps.

    Love,

    John

  4. Fran said

    Remember that the book of Revelation is the revealing or the unveiling of Christ Jesus.
    try http://www.gotquestions/amillennialism.htlm

  5. Fran said

    John:
    Correcting my mistake.

    http://www.gotquestions.org/amillennialism.htlm
    Sorry!

    Fran

  6. Steven said

    HTL:
    A very interesting question you raise. I may not finish here on this but will add more as I am able. I have heard of three ideas in regards to the Millenial reign of Christ. Pre-, Post-, and A-.

    It is my understanding that many beleive in the Pre-millenial reign. That is, we are living prior to it; it is yet to come. Others in the Post-millenial reign, it has already happened and the judgements will come afterwards. (As you described your thoughts about Amillenialism, I was thinking that sounds like Post-.) And of course, Amillenialism which I have always thought of as a view point that there is no earthly Millenial reign. (“A” from the idea of negation as in agnostic or atypical) It is also very likely that I do not fully understand everything that is classified in one or the other of these positions so please don’t ascribe to me the WHOLE belief when I say that I am in the Amillenial camp.

    Rev 20 is the only passage that I am aware of which talks about Christ reigning for 1000 years. It is in the middle of a book full of symbols and images and to take it fully out of context is a constant problem although I admit that it isn’t ONLY chapter 20 people take out of context.

    Rev. 20 tells us some things. It tells us WHO would reign with Christ; It mentions the beheaded ones, and if you split them into two groups those also who did notworship the beast. It does NOT mention Earth or Jerusalem. Nor does it mention the ones who had not died. So it seems that only those who had died (‘they came to life’) were the ones to reign. So what of those alive when Christ comes to set the reign up?

    As John mentioned from I Th, the Lord will descend and we will meet him in the air. Nothing as far as I know shows Jesus coming back to the Earth to reign, only to Judge. The lineage of Christ might also present a problem from Jer 22:30 and Luke 3 (also Matt) showing Coniah (Jeconiah) in the lineage of Christ. The promise was that none of his descendents would prosper sitting on David’s throne ruling in Judah.

    My understanding though is that Christ NOW reigns. God as made him both Lord AND Christ. He is a priest after the order of Melchilzedek (a Priest AND King), of what need would he have to descend to the Earth and reign in Jerusalem when this world is going to be destroyed? “My Kingdom is not of this world…” He told Pilate.

    Of course, it now begs the question that if there is no 1000 year reign, why the Book of Revelation? Well, I do believe in the later date but I wholeheartedly beleve that it was written for the Christians to know and understand what God was going to do to the Roman goverment which would soon be persecuting them. The message to them and to us today is that no matter what device Satan uses against us, that we are to know that those who die faithful to Christ are victorious and will not die the second death. As someone put it ‘die once, live twice, live once, die twice.’

    I hope this helps.

    Agape,
    Steven

  7. Charles D. said

    Might be helpful to read all of the a scriptures with the mindful view that ressurected bodies are subject to neither time or space as we know them.

    Each post that I have read here are absolutely edifying sufficiently that I have copied to further research. I must have read Revelations several times over and each of you raise excellent points. At another posting I saw the name”?” “GenerAL,” BUT HAVE BEEN UNABLE TO FIND (sorry for the bold) any comments attributed to the person. Did I miss something?

    John in view of “the dead in Christ shall rise first” from
    I Thessalonians; I do not believe that the unsaved are included with those who meet Christ in the air. Did I misunderstand what you were saying or did I read it wrongly?

    Charles

  8. johnkaniecki said

    Charles,

    I was going to wait longer to comment but I’d like to answer the question. Yes it was a misunderstanding. Only the dead who belong to Christ will meet in the air. I think the source of the confusion is my use of this to examine the two ressurection talked about in Revelation. The ressurection in Thessalonians seems to correspond with the second ressurection mentioned in Revelation.

    Steven since I am blogging to answer Charles I will say you have brought up excellent points.
    I’d like to know what you think of Isaiah 65. The fact that people are dying indicates it can’t be eternity.

    Yes Jesus has a spiritual kingdom. Yes God rules everything.

    I don’t know one human who understands Revelation fully. I used to take it literally and I expected a godzilla like monster to rise up. I have since changed my views.

    My friend Tom pointed out to me that we are greatly influenced by the denomination the is most responisble to bring us to Christ.

    Love,

    John

  9. Fran said

    John,
    I went back to your very 1st comment, that would be on Rev.20:4.I would like to share back and forth,hoping that we can pick up things from one another.

    1st resurection includes,firtfruits,church age beleivers, old testement saints. All beleivers from Adam-trib. All in the presense of the Lord.The 1st resurrection is not a one time gathering, but is spaced out over time. Start out reading I Cor.15:20-24.

    Get back with me.This could be a good starting point, and tell me what you get.

    In Christ
    Fran

  10. Charles D. said

    Hi John:

    Have you ever incountered the view that both, Old and New Testament saints are included in meeting Christ in the air. That during the period of darkness after Christ my Lord was crucified, that He descended into Hell to preach the Gospel to Old Testament saints, in order that none of His would be lost. And! It was during this time that He held captivity captive, and conquered both death/the grave and hell?

    Hoping to hear from you.

    Charles

  11. Charles D. said

    HTL my email sent to you on Saturday was returned to me.???

    Fran: Pls get in touch w/me.

  12. johnkaniecki said

    Fran,

    I looked carefully at those scriptures. I think I should look at the Greek if I can find it. In particular is the plural of “Christ the firstfruits” in verse 23.

    I think one of Paul’s points in is to reaffirm the ressurection of the dead as true. Some may have doubted it. Adam brought death, Christ brought life. If someone can bring death, someone can bring life.

    Go back to first 6 of the same chapter where it says “some have fallen asleep”. This description doesn’t seem to imply living and reigning with Christ for a thousand years.(Back to Revelation 20:4)

    I understand these scriptures to say Adam brought death, Christ brought life. Both were the first of their kind. Adam the first man and Christ, the firstfruits of life.

    Notice in verse 23 there is a break with a semicolon or colon. I don’t think Greek has puncuation. This break seperates the sentence which I believe describes two times periods. The first is Christ’s ressurection and “afterwords” refers to what happens in verse 24 which is the end.

    What the Greek would reveal is whether firstfruits is an adjective, referring to Christ or a noun. My Strong’s concordance translates firstfruits as “a begining of sacrifice.”

    With this prelimanary look I would now like your thoughts on my thoughts.

    On a related topic let’s look at Ephesians 4:8. Does this indicate something occurred after Jesus’ ressurection? I was told many things about this statement with no scripture to back it up. I was told Jesus led the believers who had died into some pleasant state.

    Steven, I can’t find Jeconiah in Luke. Even if I overlooked it how could it be the same person?

    Love,

    John

  13. Fran said

    John,
    Okay I will go back and read what you are addresing.Check out back in Lev.23, in how it is relative to Christ being the first fruit of first fruits in refence to ressurection. The Nation of Israel had 7 feast that God had given them. Passover feast, it takes place on the day of the cruifixion in the new testament. You know what took place at the cross. Read Matt.27:50-53. Notice these were the ones that are apart of the first fruits as is Christ being the first unto ressurection of the first fruits and those that slept are of the first friuts of the first resurrection. Remember that I have not gone pass these yet. My belief is that the first resurrection takes place over a period of time and not simultaneiously. Also the first ressurection will include the church age,and those that are saved after the trib.For me , I do believe that the second ressurection,will be for the lost and it’s not spaced out time being a one time event as far as judgement time, the great white throne.

    Hey John keep in mind when you read Lev. that the ot is a type and shadow of things to come. Throughout the ot everything points to Jesus, if you know what I mean.

    Now I must go and read what you have addressed, and I’ll be back later.

    In Christ,
    Love Fran

  14. Fran said

    John,
    Read the first chapter of Acts and see if you can tie what’s there, to any understanding to your question concerning Eph.4:8.

    Im off and on the computer. I will be back. Let me know what you see.

    In Christ
    Love Fran

  15. Steven said

    John:

    I am not sure how you are tying in Isa 65 to Rev 20. Perhaps you aren’t, but if you are, let me know. I would agree that it doesn’t indicate Eternity.

    Jeconiah. Wow. Thank you for pointing it out to me as I was typing faster than my mind was thinking. Here is a fuller explanation: The passage in Jer 22 indicates that Coniah’s descendents would not be able to prosper sitting on David’s throne in Judea. “Coniah” seems to be a shortened version of Jeconiah and this same person is also called Jehoachin. He is clearly mentioned in Matt 1. By inference though in Luke 3(which I included in case someone correctly wanted to say “Matthew was Joseph’s lineage and not Christ blood line”), we have Sheatiel and Zerubbabel both descendents of Jeconiah even though he is not mentioned specifically. This would preclude a physical reign in Judea.

    Hopefully that clarifies the question.

    On the separate discussion about the first fruits: My understanding is that “the firstfruits” is a term used in agriculture to indicate the beginning of the harvest. It implies that more fruits would come along. Since Christ was raised from the dead, the implication is that others will also be raised from the dead. Christ was not the FIRST raised from the dead but the first to rise never to die again.

    Charles asks (#10) about both OT and NT people meeting him in the air. I would agree with that Charles, those that are dead will raise first, it includes all the faithful from the beginning to the return.

    Charles, for the rest of your comments though, you ended in a question mark, so I am not sure if you are asking or making a statement. The thoughts you share though, probably come from I peter 3: 18-20 and that passage concern the people of Noah’s age, not even the saints but the disobedient. (Christ had no need to be preached to the faithful of the OT)

    Some do think that Christ descended to where these persons were held in prison to preach the Gospel to them and offer them a chance to repent. Although I can understand that view of the passage, I don’t think it is the correct one.

    It is more likely that it was Noah preached the message of repentance to them while they were alive.

    I sometimes make the statement that I have preached to people in Texas. One might assume that I have preached IN Texas but that is not the case. I have preached to people who were in California or Florida who are now in Texas but never IN Texas itself.

    The message was not preached to them while IN prison but that is where they are now. It is appointed for men once to die, then comes judgment Heb 9:27. Besides, can anyone seriously imagine a Hell bound tortured soul who would pass up a chance to get out of said prison? There are no atheists in Hell.

  16. Fran said

    Do we agree that Jesus was the first to be ressurected never to die a second death?

  17. Fran said

    We were discussing the 1st & 2nd ressurrection, what took place at the time the cruifixion of Jesus. I am aware of Laz. being raised from the dead. My take on that was to the Glory of God.

    So speaking of Christ Jesus ressurection at the cross, He would be the 1st of the first fruits,
    What would you consider these that came out of their graves after Christ cruifixion, being they came out of their graves after Christ? Christ first, then the others.Would they not be considered first fruits(saved saints)? Rember my take on the 1st ressurection is not simultaneiously. The Church Age & also the Trib Believers that die in Christ must be ressurected.

    I won’t go into the 2nd ressurection of the lost.

  18. Ken Jr said

    Two good books to also keep in mind when discussing eschatology are Zechariah and Malachi. Christ’s death on the cross is only one link in the end-times chain that began with John the Baptist (Malachi, end of 2:17-3:1). The disciples were made to understand that Christ would return again, and it is with the same hope that we continue to await his future coming and victory over the nations of this earth (including the USA! we are -not- and never have been God’s nation) (Matthew 24, Daniel 2:44).

    3Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.

    4And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south. Zechariah 14:3-4

  19. Charles D. said

    Hi Steven

    I asked johnkaniecki had he ever encountered that particular view, hence, the question mark.

    I like what you have said for the most part I am in agreement with your view, EXCEPT, Noah did not preached the gospel to all of those during OT times. What about those who came after Noah?

    Charles

  20. Steven said

    Hoping that I understand your question, you are thinking that the Gospel needed to be taught to the people who lived in the OT.

    Gal 3:8 says the gospel was preached to Abraham, in the promise that all nations would be blessed in his seed. When God revealed Himself to man, the full understanding of His intent certainly was not known, but those that lived by faith in God were acceptable to him.Rom 1:16-17. Those of the OT looked “Forward”, just as we look “Back”.

    You might consider the story of Lazarus and the rich man. Lk 16. Abraham said that the rich man’s brothers had ‘moses and the prophets’…that is what they needed to have to serve God. He didn’t.

    Abraham was justified by faith. His faith was in God’s promises. The conclusion of those promises was Christ. So with those that followed.

    agape,
    Steven

  21. Charles said

    Hi Again Steven, (I am taking a chance to quickly respond while on the job).

    It is your immediate below comment #20 that seems to conflict with your earlier assertion in #15 “Besides, can anyone seriously imagine a Hell bound tortured soul who would pass up a chance to get out of said prison? There are no atheists in Hell.”
    Recognizing that you said the above partly in jest, but as an illustration.

    “You might consider the story of Lazarus and the rich man. Lk 16. Abraham said that the rich man’s brothers had ‘moses and the prophets’…that is what they needed to have to serve God. He didn’t.”

    My point is, your earlier point refers to the second ressurection, after which there is no hope for lost souls. Furthermore, the sole means of salvation is accepting and believing in the Lord Jesus Christ. Neither Abraham or the Prophets could or can save lost souls and it is extremely doubtfull that they reached all of the people that lived during their (Abraham and the Prophets).

    You mentioned Lazarus and the rich man. There exist a school of thought which view this as a parable, albeit, that school of thought does not deminish it’s value for the benefit of man past or especially, man present.

    Where we might have a disconnect is I understand your comment at 15 to mean that once those living during OT times had died physically; they had no hope of salvation, they went straight to hell, regardless because they had Abraham and the prophets.

    I do not subscribed to that, rather, I believe that Christ, in fact, preached the gospel to those who had died during OT times. Furthermore, I do not believe torture starts until after the second ressurection. The Bible says: It is appointed unto to man, once to die and after that the judgement. Why would punishment start before a soul is adjudged. God is a just God and He wills that none should perish, but that all will come to repentance and know the saving grace of our Lord Jesus Christ.

    Unlike man, (I’m tempted to say IC); God is not in the tricking business and He is more than fair with His creation, in part, because He will that none should perish.

    I am interested in your further comment. But also, I am totally interested if you would expound on your comment “Abraham was justified by faith. and especially So with those that followed. Help me understand!

    In Christ,

    Charles

  22. Steven said

    Charles:
    I am constantly amazed that I do not take the time to proof read my own writings. One would think that I would have learned by now. J

    You are right about my intent to be humorous to some extent. However, I think the principle is correct. The rich man of Luke 16, also had Moses and the Prophets when he was alive. If the words “he didn’t” in my post was confusing, I was meaning “he hadn’t followed Moses or the prophets”. Yes, I know some consider it a parable. I would agree that it is possible.

    On the aspect of justification by faith as it applies to Abraham. There are many passages that deal with Abraham’s faith. I think of several in Romans, Galatians and especially James 2.

    The righteous will live by faith (Rom 1:17), in Romans 4 Paul takes great pain to show that Abraham was not justified by works, it was his faith (belief) in God that justifies. We also are justified by faith in verse 5. Now Paul shows Abraham did not EARN his salvation, James 2 talks about Abraham being counted as righteous before God because his Faith was combined with works. Not that Abraham EARNED his justification but that his works SHOWED his faith.

    Now if Abraham could be called Justified before Christ, then I would say that others such as David, Rahab, Ruth, Esther, Daniel, etc also could be justified.

    But were they justified WITHOUT Christ? Absolutely not. But they did live and die without understanding the promise of God as well as we do. The mystery of God has been revealed in the NT times.

    Is there a passage that says Christ went to teach those who had died? Apart from I pt 3, and that only to those of the time of Noah, I don’t know of one that even comes close. Perhaps you do.

    Jesus told Thomas that he was blessed but ‘more blessed are those that do not see and believe’. I wonder if that might not be able to be applied to those before Christ as well as After Christ. In the old testament they looked forward to the Prophet (Dt.18), today we look back to the Prophet that Moses spoke of.

    I will stop here for now.

    Agape,
    Steven

  23. johnkaniecki said

    Fran,

    I have read Levitcus 23. That always did puzzle me the NT reference to the saints who came out of their graves.

    No I don’t think Christ will rule on Earth in His physical nature. I think He will rule through a government He will establish for 1000 years.

    Fran again, In Revelation 20 it seems to suggest martyrdom by the beheading. Also it mentions that they didn’t receive the mark of the beast. Also it clearly labels this event as the first resurrection.

    Love,

    John

  24. Fran said

    Jonh,

    Remmber my take on the first ressurectin that it would be a combination of 1. first fruits, 2.church age believers,3. and trib. believers. All three ressurections add up to the first ressurection. I am talking about three events = the 1st ressurction.

    Now that, that you’re speaking on in Rev.20(beheadings,not recieving the mark of the beast) these are those that were saved from the Trib. It is third event = 1st ressurection

    I agree with you that Christ will not physically be on earth during the 1,000 years.

    Now the 2nd ressurection, it will be a one time event. This one will be for the lost. It will be GREAT WHITE THRONE time.

    If I’m saying thins that are difficult to follow, tell me and I’ll find a better way to explain.

    In Christ

    Fran

  25. johnkaniecki said

    Fran,

    Please explain why you can include the three groups together. Please make your connection with Leviticus 23. I’d like to know why then the passage on the first ressurection is in Revelation 20. It seems odd that it is talking about all three groups when looked at in it’s context. In fact it only mentions one group and the group is very specific. Why does the passage appear here and not somewhere else. Also I Thess 4:16 says “the dead in Christ shall rise first”. If they are ressurected already why are they called the dead.

    I think you would agree the aforementioned passage from Thessalonians is talking about the “Great White Throne Time.”

    Love,

    John

  26. Fran said

    John,

    1.You have the old testament saints that died(came out of graves after Christ was ressurected)

    2.You have the church age(believers that died after Christs’ ressurection,that will include us)

    3.You have the trib believers(hopfully you won’t be in this group lol)

    All these groups will consist of the 1st ressurction. The 1st event has happened. The 2nd event has not happened. You and I have not died yet. The 3rd event the trib has not happened yet.

    You do not know if you will be in the rapture.(Yes I believe in the rapture) You might die IN CHRIST before it takes place. If we were to be around then that would be good too.)

    Now if all these groups are ressurected, there would have to be more than 2 ressurections, because we have not even talked about the lost being ressurected. right?

    All three groups are not resurrcted at the same time as you can see, us being here,and the trib has not even taken place yet. right/

    Now can you see the 1st ressurection being three events , at different times, being the first ressurection. 1st event + 2nd event + 3rd event = the 1st ressurection.

    Now you already know and can see that the 2nd ressurection is for the lost. I think we agree on this.

    How can there only be two ressurections if all believers from the OT saints strait through Trib be a one time event and all have not died yet? By the way, don’t get me wrong, I only believe in two ressurections. I’m just trying to get you to see what I’m saying and by no means am I saying anything more than 2 ressurections. Just that the 1st ressurection has 3 events to occur that equal one ressurection.

    John, I will answer your 2nd question tomorrow, because it will be lenghty if I explain it the best way to be understood. Plus I need to pray for help explaining. I’m no teacher, but I love to share those things that have been quicken to me. All glory to God.

  27. Fran said

    John,

    I know you did’t ask, I am nondenominatioal. I have no agenda. I share out of my heart. I love the Lord. For me it’s not a problem. It’s only truth that I search and seek. I will also keep you and Sylvia in my prayers.

    In Christ
    Love Fran

  28. Steven said

    Fran:

    I am not sure how we come to the idea of 3 differenent resurrections. However, I suppose it doesn’t matter in the long run. I mean, I don’t think I would notice if all the OT saints were raised up anyway as long as a lot of people didn’t show up in the flesh. I think we would notice a few hundred million or so new people on the earth!

    I see I th 4 as a passage written TO christians so as not to have them lose heart when their fellow christians died. The thinking seems to have been, if they were not alive when the Lord came, that all was lost. Paul wants them to know that this is not the case.

    I don’t think he was really detailing the final resurrection. He is discussing it I think but not laying an first, second, third event order. His point is don’t lose heart or be discouraged if you die in this life, Christ will raise you or them up.

    He most certainly didn’t talk abuot the wicked, and I can see him not really discussing the OT saints. But when he says ‘fallen asleep in Jesus’, I understand that to mean faithful to God. In the NT time, that would be Jesus, from the OT time, to God and his promise OF Jesus.

    more thoughts, and oh, btw, I think you are doing a fine job of sharing yours. 🙂

  29. Steven said

    One other thought that is worthy of its own post.

    In interpreting the Book of Revelation, one might give thought to the following verses:

    1:1,3 and 22:10. These verses indicate that the time refered to in the Revelation of John was near and would shortly come to pass.

    Now I know that this will give all sorts of fits to many viewpoints of Rev and the standard answer is that God is talking about ‘short’ and ‘near’ from HIS perspective.

    However, the question that I would ask is “why?”. Why do we need to understand it in that context of “near from God’s perspective” which we all know like, a 1000 years is no big deal.

    However, WHY should we understand this to be meaning some 2000 years in the future? What advantage would it be to the Christian’s of John’s time if the book was mostly not going to be fulfilled until centuries later?

    What if the pictures and symbols were simply pictures and symbols of persecution of God’s people by the Roman government and God’s destruction of that goverment and the victory of the saints that overcame?

    In Daniel 2, Daniel told us that during the days of the 4th kingdom God would establish His kingdom. That kingdom would grow and the 4th kingdom would be destroyed. This did happen by the early 3rd century, which is a lot sooner than the 21st one.

    Just a few things to think about….

    Agape,
    Steven

  30. Charles D. said

    Can a man know the mind of God? Only so much as He is willing to reveal!

    Why would we or should we be surprise if there were 3 resurrections? The point (I believe God wants us to take from this is quite simple: There is a ressurrection unto life and a resurrections unto to death (and judgement). The difference is, (and the Bible states), Lazarus was resurrected; but only to die again again, however, Jesus was resurrected to NEVER die again.

    Lazarus’ with a small “r” Jesus’ with a “R”

    Charles

  31. johnkaniecki said

    Fran,

    I thought you may be leading to three ressurections and I’m glad your not.

    I’d like to see scriptures for the other points or at least your reasoning.

    I think the rapture would be the end of time as described in 1 Thess.

    By the way I think agendas a perpetuated by bullying ministers who insist on their own way.

    If you give me your email address I will send you a story. You can send it via Healtheland. Or if you prefer I will post mine.

    Love,

    John

  32. Charles D.: “Can a man know the mind of God? Only so much as He is willing to reveal! Why would we or should we be surprised if there were 3 resurrections?”

    That is not the point really. We cannot just fly off and say what we want or choose to believe. We have to follow scripture. If there is no basis in scripture for saying that there are going to be three resurrections, then we cannot and should not claim or preach it.

  33. Charles D. said

    You better re-read! Then correct the assertion you are trying to lay on me. Bro.
    First of all I never quoted scripture, or, represented to be scripture. Point Blank! In the interest of intellectual exchange, I posed a question. You did not answer it, and you certainly cannot disprove it.

    Now! You have p[osed questions to me and I have answered them without trying to re-construct your thought processes, nor would I try so long as you didn’t represent what you say as scripture and it was not. Now, don’t go all IC on me.

    You owe me an apology, and I fully expect one. Please do so before IC intervene on your behalf, his behalf, your behalf…let God sort it out!

    Charles

  34. Fran said

    John,

    http://www.hopefordbest@comcast.net Funny thing. I have something that I’d like to e-mail you too.
    God is Good.

    In Christ
    Fran

  35. Charles D:

    Before I apologize, I must be proven wrong. You did in fact say “Can a man know the mind of God? Only so much as He is willing to reveal! Why would we or should we be surprised if there were 3 resurrections?”

  36. Fran said

    John,

    http://www.hopefordbestpassion.comcast.net

    Sorry for that mistake.

  37. Charles D. said

    Hey HTL

    AND! Meant every syllable of it. Again, don’t go all IC on me. In the school I attended I was taught that a interrogative mark (question mark to some, same thing) ends a complete thought or, in this case a sentence. How about your school? That sentence, my friend is scripture. The remainder of the response is my rhetorical response to my question. Again, posing a question (also refer to the above for definition of “question mark). “Why” and “should” and “if” should have clued you in.

    I am partial to the King James Version of the Bible, and the exact scripture reference above is: “Canst thou by searching find out God? Checkout{Job 11:7}

    Hey! An apology from you is not what I seek, would add absolutely zero to my stature, and the same to my understanding of the Bible. Therefore, save the apology for IC. The comment was directed to him in the first place. Both you and I know where you’re coming from on this. Just since you know that I know.

    God Bless,

    Charles

  38. Fran said

    John,

    I’ll leave it again, as I can see the editing, maybe it’ll survive.

    http://www.hopefordbestcompassion@comcast.net

  39. Fran said

    John,

    I did give you the information you wanted. I see where the problem is.

  40. Fran said

    John,

    What’s the problem? I’m wating for the infomation that you have that would be of help.

  41. john kaniecki said

    Fran,

    Sorry for the delay I am at work now and I am about to leave. What I’m going to send you has nothing really to do with the topic we are discussing. It’s just a story from my life.

    Anyway like I said I’m about to leave work now and I have a lot to do. Perhaps you could refer to item 31. In particular I’d like to see scriptures for the points you are making. Inferences and feelings are good but they really can’t stand up. I believe some things about God that I cannot prove from scripture. Mostly I keep these assertions to myself or close friends. The problem with things not found in scripture is that a third part could just dismiss them.

    I still would like to hear your thoughts behind these ideas as that would be fruitful to me.

    Love,

    John

  42. kingskid49 said

    John:

    ….where it says specifically Jesus will return physically to Earth before the thousand year reign.
    Yes. Zech 14, Isa 66:12-21 and,

    Rev 19: 11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. 12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. 13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. 15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

    Revelation 20:4 is speaking of those that have been blessed to come up in the first resurrection—the resurrection of the saints Old and New Testament.

    Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

    ,,,,At the thousand year reign will Jesus be here physically ruling on Earth, in the temple perhaps, in Jerusalem perhaps.
    YES

    ….Revelation 20 talks about the two ressurections. There is the first ressurection, the thousand years when Satan is loosed, (No, Satan is bound for 1000 years*) and then the second ressurection. Note Revelation 20:4 the first ressurection and compare it to 20:12 the second ressurection.
    (This is correct.)

    *Rev 20:1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. 2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, 3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.:

    ….Jesus now sits on His throne not conclusive proof He wasn’t physically there before but He now is on His throne.
    (This speaks of the White throne Judgment)

    ….Now read Isaiah 65:20 where it talks about the sinner dying at a hundred years and being considered accursed. Since there is death this can’t be talking about eternity because….
    (This is speaking of the thousand year reign.)

    ….Clearly in the thousand years Christ will reign but it is not going to be like Heaven.
    (Mortal man will live under the government of the Kingdom of Heaven.)

    ….These people will have gone through the tribulation and survived.
    (They have survived or been born)

    ….will have received the Mark of The Beast (Revelation 13:18) and not be qualified to have any power…
    (They will be dead until the second resurrection.)

    ….Also the entire system will be one that is God glorifying and actually ruled by Christ, though I must conclude not physically present on Earth.
    (You conclude incorrectly, Read Zech 14:16-20.)

    ….I’d like to ask whether the story about Lazarus and the rich man is a parable or a historical reality.
    (A parable to reveal the final destination of man.)

    ….The ressurection in Thessalonians seems to correspond with the second ressurection mentioned in Revelation
    (No this is the first resurrection.)

    …My friend Tom pointed out to me that we are greatly influenced by the denomination the is most responisble to bring us to Christ…..
    (Roman Catholic Church)

    ….Go back to first 6 of the same chapter where it says “some have fallen asleep”.
    (“Fallen asleep” simply means died.)

    ….The first is Christ’s ressurection and “afterwords” refers…
    (Next will be the saints dead and living that will be changed in the twinkling of an eye.)

    ….On a related topic let’s look at Ephesians 4:8. Does this indicate something occurred after Jesus’ ressurection?
    (When Jesus ascended He conquered the second death for men and restored to us the right to the Tree of Life.)


    I pray that this helps.

    Peace and blessing

  43. john kaniecki said

    Kingskid49,

    I will look at your scriptures and comments and get back to you. I certainly appreciate you input in this difficult topic. I’d ask a little paitence as I am very busy these days. It seems to be feast or famine.

    Love,

    John

  44. john kaniecki:

    Welcome back brother in Christ! I pray that you and your family is doing well.

  45. john kaniecki said

    Fran,

    I tried you website at home and at work and it didn’t work both times.

    Love,

    John

  46. Fran said

    John,

    You asked for my e-mail. It is:www.hopefrodbestcompassion@comcast.net

  47. Fran said

    John,

    Correction..I should proofread…www.hopefordbestcompassion@comcast.net

    I did this time. Sorry for the mistake.

  48. johnkaniecki said

    Fran,

    Let’s hope the email works. The second try seems to have worked.

    Love,

    John

  49. johnkaniecki said

    Kingskid49,

    I have read those scriptures and I’d like to know exactly about the Lord regning on Earth physically. I emphasize physically.

    Why, does this point matter? A very good, question especially for someone not following the discussion.

    Acts 1:11 clearly points out that the Lord will return as He left. There are other scriputres the relate as well. Now my question is what is going to happen concerning the Lord’s coming.

    Is the Lord returning like a thief in the night at some unexepected moment and then the end of the world?

    Or will the Lord establish a kingdom on the
    Earth an rule for a thousand years?

    I have pretty much determined from my best understanding of scripture that the physical return of the Lord will be the final Day of Judgement and the end of the world.

    The answer to these questions would help determine how much to get involved in politics and now economics. If we Christians as I believe will have a kingdom on Earth to help run then we’d better answer some of these economic and political questions. Just because Jesus is going to rule doesn’t mean that we have no responsibilities. Quite the opposite, are duties will be multiplied and far more important.

    As far as the nature and structure of this world government I have many ideas. A general rule is that what’s good for one set of people won’t be good for another. Culture, history and other factors vary so much.

    Love,

    John

    PS. Do you still practice Roman Catholicism?

    I would love to hear why you believe the Pope has spiritual authority.

    I’d like scriptures if you could.

  50. kingskid49 said

    You said: I have read those scriptures and I’d like to know exactly about the Lord regning on Earth physically. I emphasize physically.

    You could not have read Zechariah 14 and still be unsure.

    Zec 14:4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

    Acts 1:11 clearly points out that the Lord will return as He left….

    Where did He leave from? Read on.
    Acts 1: 12 Then returned they unto

    Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet,
    Is the Lord returning like a thief in the night at some unexepected moment and then the end of the world?
    NO the whole world will see Him.

    Revelation 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

    ….the physical return of the Lord will be the final Day of Judgement and the end of the world.
    That is not what is written in the word of God. Please read Zechariah 14 the whole chapter.

    If we Christians as I believe will have a kingdom on Earth to help run then we’d better answer some of these economic and political questions.
    Those that will be ruling and reigning with Christ will be immortal and perfect.

    Zechariah 2: 10 Sing and rejoice, O daughter of Zion: for, lo, I come, and I will dwell in the midst of thee, saith the LORD. 11 And many nations shall be joined to the LORD in that day, and shall be my people: and I will dwell in the midst of thee, and thou shalt know that the LORD of hosts hath sent me unto thee. 12 And the LORD shall inherit Judah his portion in the holy land, and shall choose Jerusalem again

    Where did this come from: PS. Do you still practice Roman Catholicism?

    Never did.

    I was referring to the demonination that you friend spoke of: …My friend Tom pointed out to me that we are greatly influenced by the denomination the is most responisble to bring us to Christ…..

    (Roman Catholic Church)
    My mistake I thought you meant bring about the return of Christ. The beast(EU), and the false prophet.

    Peace

  51. johnkaniecki said

    Kingskid49,

    Thanks for you reply. I will look at the scriptures again and the additional Zecharia 2.

    Could you please then explain Thessalonians 4 where it says the Lord will come from heaven and tie it in with Revelation 20 where I see the second ressurection as the same event.

    Why do you feel the Beast is the EU?

    What about the Beast from the Sea? In relation to Israel America is from the sea.

    This is a similar argument for Gog and Magog being Russia as it is to the North.

    Quickly rereading Zecharia 14 it does seem to be talking about a physical return. Please be patient with me as things take time.

    Love,

    John

    PS could you give scriptures for the other comments in your previous blog.

  52. Brother Tyrone said

    John,

    I see that there is much discussion on Christ’s second coming, and if He will reign on the earth. I hope that this will give you some understanding and clear up a few questions about the Lord, His Saints and the Holy Angels.

    Let’s start in the first chapter of Acts: Acts 1:9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. 10 And while they looked steadfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; 11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

    As you see Jesus left the earth from the Mount of Olives. Two men (Angels) told the Apostles that this same Jesus…shall return in like manner.

    Now turn to Revelation 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. 12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. 13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. 15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. 16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

    Here we see Jesus coming out of heaven with His armies (Angels) turn to 1 Thess 1:7-8 tells us that the army coming out of heave with Jesus is His mighty Angels, so where are his Saints?

    They were not with Him when He started His descent from heaven.

    Turn to 1 Thess 1:4:14-17, as you have read the dead in Christ come up from the grave and those of us that are alive will be changed—receive spirit bodies and meet the Lord in the clouds, and be with the Lord always.

    Now, where is that going to be?

    Is He coming to meet us in the clouds to take us back to heaven or someplace else?

    Turn to Zech 14:3-5 as you read you can see that the Lord comes back to the Mt. of Olives and the Saints that met Him in the air came back to the earth with Him.

    Let’s see who this Lord is that is coming with all His Saints.

    Turn to 1Thess 3:13 To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.

    There is more, much more of Christ’s return to the earth and reigning for a thousand years. But, YES Jesus will physically be on the earth with His Saints and Angels. I could go into more detail, further, if you would like.
    Brother Tyrone

  53. johnkaniecki said

    Tyrone,

    It was easy to follow those scriptures the way you have explained them. (Except it is 2 Thess 1:7-8 that you referenece)

    Yes please explain more.

    Now let me ask you this. In Revelation 20:4 it says those that reign with Christ for a thousand years were those that were “beheaded” and “didn’t receive the mark of the beast.” This is called the first ressurection.

    Now later in Revelation 20 it shows all of the dead being raised. For example verse 20:13 where the sea gives up it’s dead.

    Now because of Mathew 25 it talks about the final judgement of the dead. “The sheeps and the goats.” Here again He comes in “His glory” and with the holy angels. Furthermore he sits on the throne of His glory. To me this seems to be talking about the second ressurection. See Rev 20:11 where the throne is again mentioned. So it seems to me that Mathew 25 is talking about the second ressurection.

    In Revelation 21 it talks about a new heavens and a new earth.

    How do you know Zechariah 14 isn’t talking about the new heavens and the new Earth?
    Verse 16 suggests to me that it doesn’t.
    I think there is something in Zechariah 14:8 where it mentions the living waters. I seem to remember other references to this. For example Revelation 21:6. Are these two waters the same?

    Furthermore what do you think Revelation 19 is saying. I mean in terms of what will happen on Earth.

    I have other thoughts but this is enough for now.

    Let me say I appreciate the time and effort you are taking to discuss these scriptures. Also the minor prophets are the part of the Bible I know the least about.

    Kingskid49. I read Zechariah 14 quickly while at work. I am very busy these days. You are absolutely right that 14:4 puts his feet on the Mount of Olives.

    Love,

    John

  54. johnkaniecki said

    Kingskid,

    Let’s get back to Zecharia. I read the whole book tonight and I was very confused.

    Love,

    John

  55. I would like to jump in and make an observation.
    In Revelations it says that Yeshua has a name written on his robe (vestage) and his thigh.
    Some food for thought:
    The name on his thigh refers to “oaths.” When an oath is made which is binding by law, it is done by placing a hand under the thigh. This was done by Abraham when he purchased land from the Hittites to bury his wife Sara in the land known today as Hebron. Abraham also makes his servant take an oath this way for his servant to find a wife for Issac, swearing that she will not be a Canaanite. Jacob also made Joseph swear with an oath to be buried in his own land by placing Joseph’s hand under Jacob’s thigh.
    I believe that these accounts are important because Abraham legally purchased land tieing him to the Hebron (Southern Kingdom of Judah). And Jacob was buried with his father in Hebron also. I think this is important because the Lord has always upheld oaths made before him, and I think that the account of “the right thigh” honors the oaths and ties Yeshua squarely with Judah and the promises of God himself.

    Then there is also an account in Judges:
    Judges 3:12-23
    Once again the Israelites did evil in the eyes of the Lord, and because they did this evil the Lord gave Eglon king of Moab power over Israel. Getting the Ammonites and Amalekites to join him, Eglon came and attacked Israel, and they took possession of the City of Palms. The Israelites were subject to Eglon king of Moab for eighteen years.
    Again the Israelites cried out to the Lord, and he gave them a deliverer-Ehud, a left-handed man, the son of Gera the Benjamite. The Israelites sent him with tribute to Eglon king of Moab. Now Ehud had made a double-edged sword about a foot and a half long, which he strapped to his right thigh under his clothing. He presented the tribute to Eglon king of Moab, who was a very fat man. After Ehud had presented the tribute, he sent on their way the men who had carried it.
    At the idols near Gilgal he himself turned back and said, “I have a secret message for you, O king.”
    The king said, “Quiet!” And all his attendants left him.
    Ehud then approached him while he was sitting alone in the upper room of his summer palace and said, “I have a message from God for you.” As the king rose from his seat, Ehud reached with his left hand, drew the sword from his right thigh and plunged it into the king’s belly. Even the handle sank in after the blade, which came out his back. Ehud did not pull the sword out, and the fat closed in over it. Then Ehud went out to the porch; he shut the doors of the upper room behind him and locked them.

    There are many simularities in these verses which should bring a deeper understanding to how Yeshua is portrayed in Revelations.
    These things also tie in perfectly to the book of Zachariah as well. But through out all the prophets, you will find hints of these character traits. An interesting feature often expressed through out the old and the new are “vessels and linen.” An important feature that is often overlooked by jewish scholars and christians, and just simply taken as “symbols” of righteousness. But I believe that it goes much deeper. It is a glimpse of what the Lord keeps in the shadow of his hand. If you look into the traits of the different tribes of Judah, you will find that Shelah, who was also later known as Shiloh, was the third son of Judah. Shelah was not given to Tamar in marriage. Rabbi’s felt that Shelah was not given any importance because Judah’s wife was a Canaanite named Shua. But that should not exlude him from the promise made by Jacob! After all the liniage of David included Rahab. What I am getting at, is that this little known clan of Shelah, was responsible for making the vessels and linen garments. They were the potters, they had the potters field. Do we see any connection? There are many scriptures pointing to this, yet it is always just spiritualized.

  56. Brother Tyrone said

    John,
    I see that you understood most about when Jesus will return, so let’s read and get an understanding about when judgment day will be and the first and second resurrection. When Jesus comes back to earth and sits on His throne, He will judge (rule) the Nations for a thousand years. This is what Matthew 25:31-32 tells us.
    I do not understand where you get the idea that Matthew 25:31-32 is talking about final judgment and the second resurrection. It says, He will judge the nations, rule over them with a rod of iron.
    Let’s look at a few scriptures that may help clear up your uncertainty, turn to Isaiah 66:15-16, the Lord come with His chariots (Angels) to plead with all flesh. Isaiah 66:18 tells us that all flesh shall worship the Lord and come up to Jerusalem and go forth and look upon the two men in the Lake of Fire. Turn to Zech. 14:16-19, we see that the Lord is talking about the nations keeping His Sabbaths, and if they will not keep them then it will not rain in their nation.
    Now turn to Rev. 19:19-20 and see that when the Lord returns the kings of the earth, along with the Beast (Military Leader) and the False Prophet (Anti-Christ) are gathered to make war against the King of kings and His army. These two were cast alive into the Lake of Fire, as soon as Jesus returns, (Rev 20:1-3 and the Devil was chained up for a thousand years, not cast into the Lake of Fire. These tow men received their spirit bodies at the first resurrection and were cast into the Fire for their sins. They beat the Devil and his angels into the fire by a thousand years. The saints that you read about in Rev. 20:4 will rule for a thousand years.
    But, notice in Rev 20:5, that the rest of the people that are dead do not live again for a thousand years. So, what are the Lord and the Saints, and Angels doing on the earth for a thousand years?
    Turn to Daniel 7:13-18 we see Jesus come near the Ancient of Days (God, the Father and was given a kingdom that all nations should serve Him. And Daniel was told that the Saints of the Most High shall take the kingdom. Skip down and read that the Kingdom is on the Earth, (Dan. 7:27).
    This is part of what Jesus is talking about in Matt. 25:31-46, which is talking about the first and second resurrection. Turn to Rev. 20:7-10, and see that the Devil is loosed out of the pit and goes out to deceive the nations into coming to Jerusalem to attack the Saints. After this the devil is cast into the Lake of Fire where the beast and the false prophet are.
    Did you notice that the beast and the false prophet are already there, of course, they have been there for a thousand years? Now the Devil and his angels are cast into the Lake of fire and brimstone, before the second resurrection. I will write more about the Lord’s reign on the Earth with His Saints and Angels.
    Oh, your question about the “living waters”? The water of Life in Rev. 21:6 is the water (Word of Life) that he spoke to the woman at the well about in John 4:7-14. Jesus was talking about His word, more on this later. The water in Zech. 14:8 is the water that will heal the earth during Jesus’ thousand year reign, Ezek. 47:1-2. We can read more about all of this if you wish.

    Peace,
    Brother Tyrone

  57. Fran said

    Brother Tyrone,

    Is it save to assume that your thoughts concerning the rapture would be pre-trib. If not let me know please.

    Thank you,

    In Christ
    Fran

  58. johnkaniecki said

    Tyrone,

    Thank you for your comments. Please allow me to reply.

    Mathew 25:31-32 It says nothing about ruling. In fact the whole thing is about judgement. The throne appears to me as the same as Revelation 20. The same Greek word is used in both instances.

    Isaiah 66:18 There is no worship my four versions say “they will come and see my glory”. There is definitely no mention of two men in fire or anything that could be interpreted that way.

    Zecharia 14:16-19 I see no mention of sabbaths.

    Daniel 7:13-18 It is an everlasting kingdom here that will not pass away. Why does this mean Christ is here physically?

    Mathew 25:31-32 Is talking about the sheeps and the goats. I would need to look at the Greek to be 100% sure but there is nothing to indicate to periods of time. Furthermore it makes sense that he is talking about one event in one parable.

    Thanks for the Revelation 21:6 scripture.

    It’s always very dangerous to skip around and mention scriptures from various parts of the Bible. I need to read things in the context of the book which is sometimes difficult. I am having a hard time understand Zecharia.

    Love,

    John

    Obviously there is much disagreement about these things. I used to think that the beasts in Revelation would be godzilla like creatures. With this is mind why is Revelation 19 taken as Jesus leading a physical army?

  59. Fran said

    It’s not skipping around in the bible. You should be able to go to the OT and recognize prophecy, and scripture, keeping in mind, that the OT is a shadow and type of things to come that are in the NT. You can get confused if you can’t tie the old in with the new.

    Zach.14: 1-4 talks about this last great battle before Christ return. Zach. 14 and Rev.19 are like unto a carbon copy. Read one then read the other. You should be able to see the connection.

    Then in Rev. 19, who would you say is with Jesus? Where would you say that are going? What battle must be fought? Have you taken in account that the beast and the prophet are thrown in the lake of fire(Rev.19;20)? Would you believe that the beast is the anti-christ? Would you believe that the prophet is the leader of the world religon during the 7 year trib? Would you believe that these are the two men in the fire?

    All that I have said is enough right there to get an understanding on before even dealing with
    Rev. 20. Can you see Rev.20, before seeing Rev.19?

    In Christ
    Love Fran

  60. johnkaniecki said

    Fran,

    I hope you are well and doing fine.

    When I studied with Curtis Stamps one of the things he taught me was “as text without a context is a pretext.” Realize that Chapter numbers and verse numbers aren’t in the original manuscripts. I need to understand what the book is dealing with and why. Also in the Old Testament we don’t necessarily know what time period the passage is talking about. I must be very cautious. I have seen experts with PHD’s who have purposely maligned the Word of God for their purposes. No, I certainly don’t think this of you. Yet I tend to take my time before coming to a conclusion and keep my mind open for alternatives. There are people with such zeal for every positon there is.

    When I was in Philadelphia counting cars I heard a preacher talking about what we had discussed. About the first ressurection being in from Adam to the end of the trib. I thought of you as I heard it. I had a good time in Philly and made a couple of friends.

    Back to Revelation 19. I know not to take Revelation literally. 19:20 I do take literally. But the very next verse, 21, I can’t. If we took that verse literally I think you could see the problem. I know the sword is the Word of God in scripture. But does a sword from a mouth slay people. Not in the same physical sense the two evil beings get throne into the pit of fire.

    So please be patient as I think, study, pray and consult others. As I mentioned the minor prophets are the part of the Bible I have the most problems with. I got into Zecharia and learned a few things. If I don’t understand what’s going on it is hard for me to remember. It took me years to learn the epistles. The gospels were simple, at least to me. I had those stories memorized in almost no time. I have read the minor prophets at least twenty times. Besides Jonah I don’t have a good grip on any of them. Some parts are easier than others. I’m not to good at the other prophets neither but I’m trying. (I even had a course in Isaiah at semminary.It’s just that there is so much there.)

    As far as the Bible as one unit I know that God doesn’t change. But people and His relationship to those people do change. When we read Revelation we know that the church has been established. This isn’t true of Zecharia. I’m not saying you are wrong. Zecharia 14 is a very interesting chapter that I have become now aquainted with.

    There is a lot going on here in my life.

    Love,

    John

  61. Fran said

    John, I am sorry if I sounded offensive in any way. Those are not my intentions.

    I haven’t been to Philly for a good while. The last time I was there, I can’t remember what the itinerary was of the group that I took there. Usually, I can remember everywhere that I take the people. Some trips I want to forget. I’m glad your trip was pleasant. It’s always good when work is pleasant.

    My take on Rev.19:21 is the sword being the Word and the remnant being those that survived Armaageddon. How are you seeing that?

    Sometimes I ask a question instead of just stating what I believe so that it doesn’t seem like I’m pushing my belief on another person. I keep my heart open when it comes to the Word also because
    when revelation, Truth,comes, I don’t want to be so hard hearted, that I can’t receive correction. So the questions were just one way of asking you to take a look at this. I think we understand each other.

    I continue to keep you and Sylvia in my heart.

    In Christ
    Love Fran

  62. kingskid49 said

    John I see your problem you do not believe the word of God. IT IS TO BE TAKEN LITTERALLY.

    If Curtis Stamps is such a good Bible study leader/partner then why do you have so many questions even after you have been given scripture after scripture to no avail??

    My suggestion is that you read the Bible for what it says not what somebody says that it says.

    Take a hint from Isaiah 29: 9 Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts.
    10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:
    11 For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.
    12 To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear.
    13 But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.

    James 1:5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.
    6 But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.
    7 For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord.
    8 A double minded man is unstable in all his ways.

    />

    You have a lot in common with them–you do not believe God’s Word.

    I shall not comment to you again, I DO believe God’s Word is inerrant.

    I will be praying that God will open your eyes.

    Matthew 13:13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
    14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
    15 For this people’s heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

    Peace to you

  63. kingskid49 said

    I tried to quote cite this:

    I must be very cautious. I have seen experts with PHD’s who have purposely maligned the Word of God for their purposes.

  64. johnkaniecki said

    Kingskid,

    So nice of you to reply to me. Thank you for your prayers, we all need many prayers.

    The Bible is the Word of God but it must be read correctly. John 10:20 speaks of Jesus “He hath a devil, and is mad, why hear ye him?” We must understand that it is the Jews talking about the Jesus. I know Christian who will say “God doesn’t hear a sinner’s prayer” because of John 9:31.

    The Bible teaches in 1 John 1:10, Romans 3:23 and other places that we are all sinners. Obviously God answers prayers.

    Jesus is the lamb of God. Is he then an animal?If you don’t see my point then I am very sorry I can’t make it more clear and perhaps somebody else could help out.

    I believe the Bible is the Word of God authored by the Holy Spirit by the hands of many men and that in it’s original languages it is perfect and without error. It therefore contains no historical, scientific, philosophical, psychological or theological error. (This list is not complete.)

    I mention Curtis not that he is a great teacher. I’m sure nobody here has ever heard of him. The fact that he is dead and very dear to me I mention his name in hopes somebody else may have known him.

    I hope there is no confusion now as to the fact that I believe in God’s Word. I am sorry if I led you to believe otherwise. I hope you also realize that some people may not be as quick to learn as others and they need time. There are many things that are discussed here and it takes time to read these things and learn.

    As regards to your not replying to me any more that is your decision. I would hope you would reconsider. I certainly don’t need you to repeat what you have said as I can reread the log entries. But if you have something new to add that would be appreciated. Recall Love is patient.

    Like I said these things are very complex. If don’t grasp the statements in this comments consider this. The Bible was written over a long period of time to different people in different situations. There are many different types of writings used in the Bible. We can’t read the book of Job the same way we read the book of Kings. Yes both books are God’s Word. But Kings is historical while Job has different speakers expressing what is on their mind. Of course in Job when God speaks what He is saying is the absolute truth. But when Job’s three friends speak they say things that are then contradicted by Job.

    Fran I must look into Revelation 19:21. I feel it is the Word of God but I don’t know about the timing yet.
    Love,

    John

  65. johnkaniecki said

    Kingskid,

    I see that we are blogging at the same time. Your next comment was written as I was writing.

    Please allow me to explain. That comment I made was about two individuals from a certain experience I had. If you think it referred to you I am sorry. I know almost nothing about you. Furthermore the comment while open is addressed to Fran.

    People are taught many things from various people. Fran privately emailed me a website of somebody which I haven’t examined very much. Anyway the point is that a college degree or studying with a certain individual doesn’t guarentee knowledge of the Word of God. Look at Judas who was with Jesus for a long time. Look at Peter and the other Apostles who asked Jesus a question that showed their lack of understanding. Acts 1:6

    So to accept teachings from somebody because they have these things wouldn’t be prudent.

    I suggest that perhaps in the future that you would let a moment pass before you submit your blogs and carefully reread them. If nothing more you wouldn’t omit two sentences of what somebody has said.

    It’s been a long night and I am waiting for my wife to return from work. I will reread what has happened. This wouldn’t be the first time I have been misunderstood on the blog.

    I will pray for you, I hope you will do for the same for me.

    Love,

    John

  66. Fran said

    John,

    This is at the end of the trib., and as you go into the first couple of verses of Rev. 20, you can see that satan being bound to the bottomless pit.( remember that he will be released after 1,000 years, so that’s why he’s not thrown into the lake of fire).

    In Christ
    Love Fran

  67. kingskid49 said

    I appreciate your suggestion in regard to re-reading my comment before I send. I didn’t omit the quote. For some reason when I used the XHTML none of the quote showed up except the />. Which I re-posted the missing quote immediately. I thank you for your prayers and know that you are in mine.

    Peace

  68. kingskid49 said

    Fran,

    I know that your question was directed to Tyrone, however, I know the answer to your question. I posted a letter that he sent to Jack Van Impe and John Hagee, here is the link:http://kingskid.e4god.com/blogs/2007/08/24/what-do-you-believe/

    Peace

  69. Fran said

    Kingskid43,

    Thank you. I will check out the answer.

    In Christ.
    Fran

  70. johnkaniecki said

    Fran,

    Hope you are well. I’ll send a couple of more stories if your caught up in the reading. Sylvia is fine and we are about to go bowling. A coworker gave me a coupon.

    I was looking at 2 Thessalonians chapter 2. In particular the Day of the Lord and comparing that to 1 Thessalonians 5. But I must look further but it seems to be the same event. I need to look at the Greek.

    As to Revelation 19:21. Why don’t you think that Revelation 19 is the battle of Armegedon?

    Revelation 16:16 mentions them gathered together at Aremegedon. Then the seventh vial is poured out. The following events up to 19 seem to be something that could occur in a short period of time. There is no mention of a Bible.

    Also if all the wicked are slain at the end of Revelation 19 then who are those deceived after the devil is loosed after the thousand years?

    Also why do you believe in a rapture before the tribulation?

    Back to further comments I once read a book by a PHD and Bible University professor who said Revelation was completely filled when Constantine made the Catholic Church the offical book of the Roman Empire. It was the worst book I ever read.

    Been reading Zecharia a few times and contacted a friend Mike about it.

    Love,

    John

  71. johnkaniecki said

    Fran,

    Offical religion of the Roman Empire. I was reading the book when I had lots of time. Otherwise I would have stopped. It was before I was married. The point is I don’t respect credentials on credentials alone.

    If somebody could read Greek and Hebrew that’s the best thing I think a Bible school could teach as far as understanding the Bible.

    Gotta run.

    Love,

    John

  72. Brother Tyrone said

    John
    I see you still do not understand about
    Matthew 25:31-46.
    But we will continue until you see the picture and understand the time frame. But I must first clear up the matter about Isaiah 66:18. What was left out was verses
    23-24.
    There is much more that is being done, such as things written in verses 19-23.

    But more on these verses later, for they also coincide with Matthew 25:31-32. If you read Isaiah 66:23-24 all flesh will keep the Lord’s Sabbath, and will com up to Jerusalem to look upon the carcasses of the two men in the Lake of Fire—the Beast (military leader) and the False Prophet (religious leader).
    Sorry for the omission, but did you notice that the Lord said “His Sabbath”? You stated that there was no mention of Sabbaths in Zechariah 14:16-19. Well,
    Zechariah 14:16,
    talks about the Feast of Tabernacles being kept by the nations. Well, I see you do not know the Lord’s Sabbaths. Read Leviticus 23rd chapter, it tells of the Lord’s Feast days (Sabbaths) read
    Leviticus 23:1-2
    , these are the Lords Feast/Sabbath Days not the “Jews” Sabbaths. Read
    Leviticus 23:33-39
    , this tells you of the feast of Tabernacles and that it is a Sabbath.
    More about the Lord’s Sabbaths as we go along. But they are a sign between the Lord and His servants, Ezekiel 20:12, 20.
    The world knows nothing about these High days but they will be kept once again when the Lord comes back to reign.
    Daniel 7:13-18
    coincides with
    Zechariah 14:4.
    His feet stand on the Mt. of Olives. Which means that He is physically standing on the earth, and His armies war with Him
    Rev 19:14
    and
    2 Thessalonians 1:7-8
    . Also, His saints
    Zechariah 14:5
    and
    1 Thessalonians 3:12-13.

    Oh, BTW there are no “minor prophets” in the Bible. Only God’s Word can interpret God’s Word,
    2 Peter 1:19-21.

    As we go along I will show you what Matthew 25:31-46 is talking about, for it covers a long time—one thousand years. From the first resurrection to the second resurrection, so we will be going back to before the Lord comes and who these Beasts in Revelation and Daniel 11 are so that we can get an understanding of God’s plan. Also, if you understood Leviticus 23rd chapter you would know His Plan, more, later.

    Tyrone
    p.s. Again, sorry for the missing scripture Isaiah 66.

  73. Brother Tyrone: “Oh, BTW there are no “minor prophets” in the Bible.” Now brother, you know what he meant. You have been a “long jumpshot” brother heretofore, so there is no need to go for “the easy points.”

  74. john kaniecki said

    2 Timothy 2:15 “Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.”

    When I was a child I was very intelligent but at the same time stupid. I could read a book and remember the facts but I lacked to power of reason. Thus I could get A’s on my exams but didn’t know a thing about life or how to interact with people. I also believed everything the teachers told me and that I read in books.

    As I got older this trend continued though I knew something was wrong. Things in the world didn’t match what I was taught. I was taught a lot of hatred and meanness. When I went to engineering school at Steven’s Tech things changed. I had a fresh start and wanted to live my life differently. My first semester I got all A’s and one B in humanities. But I had a rude awakening as I made some discoveries about life. One thing among may was I was always taught that drugs were evil and that using them would ruin your life instantaneously. In high school these facts seemed to be true. Yet in college I saw people heavy into drug use at the top of the class. I began to doubt and question things more and more.

    A couple of years later I wound up in a psychiatric hospital. There were many factors that brought me there. It was in my second hospitalization and I was just learning the ropes. I was in a committed ward and the thirty days had expired that they were allowed to keep my there. I had to talk to a Hindu woman doctor to get a second opinion. They need two docotors to have you committed to a second hospital. I told the woman I didn’t want to be an engineer instead I wanted to spread the word of Christ. The next day I was promptly shipped out to another hospital. A very nice one I might add.

    After I got over many difficulties I began academic studies in history, religion and other areas. I was a Christian before I went into the hospital and I praise the Lord for that because I couldn’t have endured the experience without him. I used to study for around six hours a day. I was living at home and still single with not many responsibilities. This intense studying began after I had returned to college and receive a bachelor’s in math. I learned many of the things that I had learned weren’t true at all. This was in every field.

    A good way I have to test an idea especially a Biblical statement is to examine who is telling me this. I know think back at a minister who got divorce for his homosexual promiscuity and I contemplate the things that he taught. Most of them were wrong.

    I can’t meet the people on this blog personally though I hope we will all meet in heaven, that is our hope. Without a doubt there are differences of opinion on this blog. There is an absolute truth and that truth is known in the Word of God. Yes the Spirit does indeed teach those he dwells in but the Spirit would never contradict the Word of God. The Bible is our authority.

    Besides the studies on this blog I have consulted three other people about these matters. Three whom I know have studied the Bible extensively. To no suprise to me, all three had different ideas and conclusions. Different from those on this blog I might add. These matters we are studying aren’t simple things. If we were discussing adultry for example and somebody said, “Adultry is allowed” I could speak without hesistation that that person was in error.

    No these things are very difficult to determine. If it weren’t there wouldn’t be such great controversy in the world on this matter. I don’t see why people are impataitient that I don’t come to a conclusion immeadiately. I wish perhaps some of the people would all get into a room and have it out. I wonder if that conversation would be a Godly one though full or respect for one another.

    I have said that the minor prophets were the area that I had difficulty with the most. Yes that isn’t a Biblical term but it is a term used and accepted by people. Perhaps it is misleading as no prophet is minor in any way. It is a reference only used by convienance to make things easier.

    So if I study and think these things out please have paitence with me. As I said I have other people making comments as well. Furthermore work is very busy and there are other responsibilities. Knowledge and wisdom is gained overtime and not in a moment.

    Finally people have been convicted about many things only to discover themselves to be wrong. There is an absolute truth here, obviously there is going to be only one future. Why you are so certain you possess that truth on this matter I don’t know. I certainly don’t have the answers now, that is why I make these inquiries. But I am willing to examine what you say and to look into the scriptures.

    May God bless us all,

    Love,

    John

    John

  75. johnkaniecki said

    “Study to she thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ahsamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.” 2 Timothy 2:16

    When I was young I was very intelligent with books. I read a quite deal and could easily memorize facts. I could tell you all the names of the dinosours and all about ants. But I lacked another kind of intelligence. I didn’t know about people and the world. I some ways I was very stupid. I was probably both the smartest child in one way and the stupidest child in another in my school.

    I got older and I did well in school. But I didn’t know about love and how to be a friend. I had another equally severe problem, I believed everything the teachers and the books taught me, without question.

    When I got to college I knew something was wrong in my life. I started to question what I had learned. I had a chance to start afresh and I wanted what I lacked. So I tried to make friends and I was successful at it. I went to Steven’s Tech which is an engineering school so most of the students were socially challenged, even more than me.

    At Steven’s I initially did well getting all A’s and one B in my first semester. But this left me empty and had no fufillment. When I was in high school and before I was taught that illegal drugs would ruin your life in a moment. In high school my observations confirmed this. At Steven’s I saw people into drugs heavily that were at the top of the class. I realized I had been taught another lie.

    I became a Christian and I was overwhelmed with joy. Three months later I was in the psychiatric hospital. On my second trip to that hospital I was again on the committed ward. The time had expired and I had to be reviewed by two doctors. Two doctors were needed by law to prolong the stay. The second doctor was a woman, Hindu. I told her I didn’t want to be an engineer and that I wanted to spread the news about Jesus. I was promptly sent to another psychiatric hospital. A very nice one I might add, where I spent an additional sixty days.

    After recovering I returned to school and got a bachelor’s degree in Math. Then my studies really began. I was single and living at home with no commitments. I read for six hours a day primarily Bible and history. I learned that much of what I learned wasn’t accurate, true or the complete picture.

    I can’t meet the people on the post and know what they are like. I recall one minister who taught things. He was divorced by his wife for being a promiscuous homosexual. When I think about what he taught most of it was wrong. Not everything but most.

    What we are discussing here isn’t something as simple as say adultry. If someone claimed that the Bible didn’t forbid adultry then I would say without hesitation they were wrong.

    In addition to this website I have consulted three other Christians who are very familiar with the Bible. To no suprise to me they gave me three different answers to the things we are discussing, all of which disagree with the opinions on this blog. I would love to have all four of you sit in the same room and work things out. I wonder if that conversation would be polite, civil and edifying.

    I have said that this area is one that I am very unfamiliar with. I am doing my best to learn. I certainly don’t have all the answers that is why I am making this inquiries. Christianity is more than a philosophical question to be thought over. It is a way of life.

    I have been wrong about many things and I have found out differently. That is part of the learning process. Some of these things I was convinced were absolutes at the time. So I humbly ask you the question, Why do you think you are correct?

    I would appreciate paitence in my replying to your observations. Some of the question I pose here may not even originate from me but may be responses from other people. Jesus had no problems in being questioned. In fact many teachings were results of being questioned. He also answered some questions with parables.

    We can learn from everybody. Yet we are Christian and hold the Word of God as our authority. That Word describes Love as patient. I ask no more of you than what the Word commands you to be.

    May God bless you,

    Love,

    John

  76. johnkaniecki said

    Tyrone,

    Hello and hope you are well. Let me apologize to everyone for duplicate entries. I wrote the first one after work. When I came home it wasn’t posted on the blog. Then I rewrote it that night. Now I see two. Sorry.

    Let’s start with the word sabbath. In the King James Verssion every time the word Sabbath is used in the Old Testament it is the same Hebrew word with the exception of Lamentations 1:7. The word Sabbath is not used in Leviticus 23 1 and 2. The words translated in Ezekiel 20:12 and 20 is sabbath the same as the other uses. So first you must explain why Ezekiel’s use of the same word is different from the other uses found in the Bible.

    I think after study I see why you think the feasts are Sabbaths. Leviticus 23:24 and 39. But look carefully at verse 39 it designates the first days as a Sabbath and the eighth day as a Sabbath. It doesn’t say the whole festival is a Sabbath. The feast of tabernacles starts on the fifteenth day of the seventh month. It last for seven days. The eighth day in verse 39 which is called a sabbath isn’t even in those seven days. I think it would be prudent to look at the Jewish calender. I know it is different than the one we use today. It just may be that the fifteenth day of the seventh month falls on a saturday. Leviticus 23:34 clearly says the feast is seven days.

    I don’t know why you think this important at this point as it goes back to Zecharia 14:16 and your assertion that the Feast of Tabernacles is the same as sabbaths. I think you are trying to tie it into Isaiah 66:23-24 Look at Isaiah 65:17 where it mentions a new heavens and a new earth. Now go to Revelation 21:1 where it mentions a new heavens and a new Earth. Now Isaiah 65:20 mentions people dying. Death is the last enemy conquered so there is no death after a point in time. Revelation 21:4 says there is no more death. So what happens in Isaiah 65:20 can’t be the same as Revelation 21. Now Isaiah 66:22 again mentions this new heavens and a new earth. But look at the final verse in Isaiah. The end of Isaiah and Revelation 21 are a better match.

    Love,

    John

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