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Homosexual COGIC pastor Ronald Paige murdered: Rape Attempt Alleged

Posted by Job on August 23, 2008

Update: I feel duty bound to provide this additional information.

I personally believe … was gay, everyone knows that, but did he really deserve to die. Harris fought him off apparently but instead of running and contacting the police he killed Ronnie Paige, stole his mercedes, and over 10,000 dollars. I believe this man had it planned from the beginning to accuse Paige of rape to give him a good excuse to kill him to get his money. Hey it is believeable Ronnie’s gay, then you have more parents and kids making that accustion now that Ronnie’s dead so he can’t defend himself. These so called parents allowing it to happen and not going to the police then?? Come on if my child told me a man tried to touch him, I would go to cops right then and there if I don’t go after the man myself. Again, I feel like people should stop talking about Ronnie and his lifestyles, and realize he was MURDERED!! Harris should go to jail for life.

Gcmwatch has it:

Homosexual COGIC pastor murdered; new revelations uncovered

BREAKING NEWS – MEMPHIS

When will this madness end?

We reported to you earlier this year that the presiding Bishop of the Church of God in Christ (COGIC), Bishop Charles Blake  promised he would make it a priority of his administration to deal with what appears to be numerous cases of clergy sexual abuse and criminal sexual activity. So far, nothing has been done.

Meanwhile, the devastation caused by wolves pretending to be pastors continues. And their primary target: young boys who are seduced into their web of sexual terror.

A Memphis CBS news today aired new revelations on the story of Pastor Ronald Paige who was murdered in his home in April. Now, the man’s 21 year old killer has confessed and told the reason why. The pastor was attempting to forcibly rape him. What’s more, the pastor has a long history of molesting teen boys at his church. Six other victims have already made statements to police.

A neighbor of Paige said he always kept to himself. “He was a good person. He helped the homeless. We saw homeless men coming in and out and he helped them all out all the time. He’s very good with these people.” Paige was also married but not living with his wife. The 21 year old who murdered him was also homeless and had been “taken in” by Paige.

One mother told the reporter that her 15 year old son was molested by Paige but when she complained to Bishop LT Walker, she and her family were driven out of the church. This is almost identical to the story of Gwendolyn Fox of Atlanta. Her son 15 year old son Tobias was was molested by COGIC General Board Bishop JD Husband. But her attempts to get justice were rebuffed and rebuked by church officials. Mrs. Fox and Tobias gave me an  full, exclusive interview which I chronicled in my book 2002 book Touching A Dead Man.

The clearly frustrated Memphis reporter said that after repeated attempts to contact COGIC officials at the headquarters and at Arkansas First Jurisdiction, there has been a virtual stone wall. Typical of COGIC officials who are more concerned with their “name, image and assets” than the lives of the innocent boys who will suffer the effects of their sexual trauma for years to come. Perhaps its time for a major Catholic church-style financial beating of COGIC before they will do something about this blight in their midst.

Bishop Blake, who will be speaking at the upcoming Democratic National Convention “interfaith gathering”, needs to remember what he said less than one year ago:

We now live in a litigious society. People file lawsuits for every conceivable grievance, whether real or imagined. To protect the name, image, and assets of the Church of God in Christ, we must take positive steps to seriously investigate very case of alleged sexual abuse by the clergy. We must stand behind and support those who are falsely accused of sexual improprieties and found innocent by the courts. We must also insure that the Church act quickly to take firm and positive action against those who violate the sanctity of their positions and are found guilty of sexual abuse and other sexual improprieties.” 

But so far, even to the shock of secular news, COGIC has refused to act or even respond to the allegations about Pastor Ronald Paige.  Video and writeups of the shocking development here and here.

Recent Related:

COGIC Pastor arrested for sex with 15 year old boy
Living in an immoral church

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88 Responses to “Homosexual COGIC pastor Ronald Paige murdered: Rape Attempt Alleged”

  1. Kyle said

    This is the ultimate conundrum for the Liberal. You have 2 blacks, one of which is homosexual, one of which is homeless. You also have a murder but like any good liberal you can’t send this young man to jail because of his “circumstance” being homeless. But on the same token it was a “homosexual” that was killed therefore Pastor Paige was a victim seeing that he had no other choice but to act out like this because of a homophobic society.

    I guess we will just have to blame it all on society

    Oh how I love Liberalism.

    Kyle

  2. Job said

    Kyle:

    Nope. We know from several instances in the criminal justice system right in my own city of Atlanta that the liberals now advance the homosexual agenda above anything and everything else. The worst example was when two (or was it three) whites with criminal records badly beat a black man in an obvious racial attack and only got a minor sentence where a black college student with no prior criminal history beat a homosexual for staring at him in the shower and got absolutely hammered. When local civil rights leaders demanded that the judge explain the disparate sentencing, the judge refused to give an explanation and the local media ignored it. Right now, the iron triangle of homosexuality, feminism, and abortion trumps everything else, which has to take a back seat, although it appears that global warming is making a strong challenge to that three.

    As for the homeless person, I wonder why the “self – defense” avenue seems not to be available?

    The pastor was attempting to forcibly rape him. What’s more, the pastor has a long history of molesting teen boys at his church. Six other victims have already made statements to police.

    I wonder if a Memphis jury will ignore those facts?

  3. Anthony D. Heath said

    MY PASTOR WAS NOT GAY…!!!!!!! LET ME PUT THAT OUT THERE NOW!!!!!!!!!! I DONT CARE WHAT YOU HEARD ELDER PAIGE WAS NOT A MOLESTING PASTOR,,,,, YALL GET RIGHT….. HE WAS MURDERED AND THE DUDE THAT DID IT WAS DRUNK HE ADMITTED TO IT, AND HE COULD SAY ANYTHING TO GET HIS CASE CHANGED OR SOME…. AND FOR ALL YALL LYING PEOPLE OUT THERE,, GOD HAVE MERCY ON YALL BECAUSE YALL KNOW ELDER PAIGE DID NOT TOUCH YALL…. AND IT SADDENS ME WHAT HE DONE FOR YALL 30 ODD YEARS AND YALL BETRAY HIM LIKE THIS…. CONTACT ME AND I’LL TELL YOU THE REAL ELDER PAIGE.. AND IF YOU WANT TO KNOW WHO THIS IS THIS SHAWN YALL KNOW ME… YALL DISGUST ME AND I PRAY FOR MERCY ON YALL, ALL YALL WANT IS ATTENTION AMD WHAT YALL SAYING I WISH I WOULD HAVE KNOWN THEN WHAT I KNOW NOW WBECAUSE I WOULD HAVE TOLD MY PASTOR TO LET YALL STAY IN THE DIRT… YES I SAID IT AND IT AINT GODLY AND THE THINGS YOU ALL SAYING AINT EITHER…… YOU ALL KNOW HE DIDNT TOUCH YALL SO STOP THE LYING FOR GOD SHUT YOU UP COMPLETELY!!!!!!! YALL AINT RITE!!!! CALL YOURESELVES SAINTS OF GOD, NAWL YALL AINT THAT YOUR SOMETHING ELSE.. AND I DONT CARE WHAT YOU SAY ABOUT ME I KNOW THE TRUTH….!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! HE’S NOT GAY AND HE DID NOT WANT TO RAPE THAT BOY!!!!!!

    • Pastor Martineau said

      I hear your pain, but I pray since this post in 2008, God has done a work on you. Hold on to the love you have for your pastor, the man you knew, and let God do the rest. Healing is the childrens bread.

  4. thepopeofpentecost said

    There are 3 sides to this story. His side, his side and the TRUTH and GOD is the only one that knows the 100% truth. Its sad that yet another Pastor has been murdered for something homosexual related. This is not the first time. I’ve even been to a funeral/homgoing some years ago back in Atlanta for this same reason.

    Me personally, all I can do is shake my head in shame. I just wish “true” men of God would operate according to the Spirit and not after the flesh.

  5. long_distance_observer said

    To Anthony B. Heath a.k.a. Shawn — Your pastor sure had a lot of alcoholic beverages in his house. Always a good thing for a mano of God tohave around the house!!!!Did he ever invite the congregation over for drinks and call it communion? You are defending him, and since it was your pastor, you have that right. But the ones who report that he abused or attempted to abuse them have a right to their say also. You stated that they should shut up before God shuts them up, but if they are telling the truth, should God shut you up!

    Why don’t you challenge them to an Elijah Mt. Carmel like experience. You all come together, and you all ask God to permanently shut up the liars either the ones reporting that your pastor abused them or you who say he was not Homosexual. You are suspect because if your pastor was molesting boys, only he and the boys would be present, however you adamantly insist that you know!!!

  6. DavidL said

    It’s always a shame to see someone die, but if he was a homosexual……then why was he a pastor?

  7. Anthony D. Heath said

    Well sir or mam i KNOW THOSE PEOPLE IN EARLE ARKANSAS AND THEY ARE LIARS AND THEY LOVE ATTENTION FIRST OF ALL….. AND THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH A DRINK AND 2ND OF ALL THE BIBLE CLEARLY STATES DRINK AND BE MERRY, SO THERE IS NO SIN TO DRINK THE SIN IS WHAT YOU DO WHEN YOU GET DRUNK…. AND YOU ARE TRYING TO BE FUNNY WHEN YOU SAY INVITE THE CONGREGATION OVER AND CALL IT COMMUNION NO HE DID NOT! HAHAHA BUT T.D JAKES AND HIS WIFE MAY WANTED TO HAVE A NICE TIME AT THERE HOUSE WOULD THEY SIT AROUND LISTENING TO I KNOW THE LORD WILL MAKE AWAY AND DRINK SOME OF THE ORANGE JUICE ONE OF THE MOTHERS OF THE CHURCH…….. AND THEN AGAIN….. WAS THE PRIME MINISTER OF SOMETHING SAY HE WAS GAY OR THE CATHOLIC BISHOP OR PRIEST OR SOMEBODY, WHY DIDNT KNOW ONE DO NO SURVEY ON HIM, MY PASTOR WASN’T GAY HE’S NOT HERE TO DEFEND HIS SELF BECAUSE A DRUNK FOOL KILLED HIM… AND ANDREA HARRIS SAID MY PASTOR BOUGHT HIM SOME BEER… SO IT WASNT HIS,,, SO YOU MIGHT WANT TO LOOK AGAIN, SO GOD BLESS YOU…….. AND PEOPLE WOULD SAY ALMOST ANYTHING TO GET ON TV AND YOU KNOW WHAT…. IF HE WAS DOING SO MUCH WHY DIDN’T THEY CALL THE POLICES AND ALL THAT WHAT COULD MY PASTOR HAVE DONE TO THEM THAT MADE THEM SCARED TO….. LIKE MISS EARLEY SHE SAID THEY MADE HER LEAVE THE CHURCH, SHE IS SOME “KIN” TO THE EX MAYOR OF EARLE DONT SHE THINK HE WOULD HAVE DONE SOMETHING, THINK ABOUT THAT……..GOD BLESS YOUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU

  8. long_distance_observer said

    To anthony B. Heath a.k.a Shawn

    Proverbs, chapter 20
    “1″: Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging: and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise.

    Isaiah, chapter 5
    “11″: Woe unto them that rise up early in the morning, that they may follow strong drink; that continue until night, till wine inflame them!

    You can say whay you will and view it the way you want to. I personally do not believe that all of these people are lying on him! And why wouldn’t TD jakes listen to gospel music and drink orange juice at a social gathering. As a Christian, I’ve attended many of these gatherings and never was alcohol served! NEWSFLASH: SOME PEPLE ACUTALLY LIVE THE MESSAGES THAT THEY TEACH!!! As for him not being here to defend himself, Ms. Wallace confronted him to his face at a meeting about his actions with her son. She didn’t wait until he was not around to defend himself; so what she is saying now is not new. She is repeating what she said over 20 years ago, but because of another report of attemted rape by your pastor, people are now listing to her. By the way, where is the guitar player that your pastor took from his family as a teenager. If I remember correctly, his mother had to go to court to force your pastor to leave him alone!!! Maybe you can explain what really happened ther also.

  9. Anthony D. Heath said

    mY pastor didnt take no guitar player from know one… wrong person….. and when i said t.d jakes i ment him and his wife not the church… the bible say if you get drunk then it would be a mocker… i personally believe that it is no sin to drink i believe the sin is what is done while drunkk….. mrs or ms. wallace which i believe you knowww so mrs. early said she confronted the church not paige……

  10. angie said

    If this man is truly gay and ministering a church, then I believe that in my soul that God did not call him. Too many pulpit pimps, too many lost souls.

  11. James said

    There are too many rapes, too many murders and not enough electric chairs for them all.

  12. long_distance_observer said

    To anthony B. Heath a.k.a Shawn

    You have a misguided biblical knowledge base

    Proverbs, chapter 20
    “1″: Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging: and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise.

    Note that it say wine is a mocker, nothing is said about drinking enough to get drunk!!! You also don’t seem to be aware of the mother who had to file charges against your pastor to get her son back!!! Do I need to direct you to the court records in Memphis?

  13. Anthony D. Heath said

    To get her son back….My pastor and his wife were foster parents at one time and they cant up and give someone their child back if the government didnt tell them to… and the bible says strong drink, meaning if the drink gets you drunk, and i dont believe my pastor was a drinker, my grandma has wine in her house but don’t nobody drink, what if he wanted to be romantic with his wife, is a drink bad, everybody drinks on honeymoons or times when romanticcccc

  14. Anthony D. Heath said

    But sir or mam, this conversation is over GODDD bless you…….

  15. E.Bert said

    Blessings Anthony,
    My condolences on the death of your Pastor.
    Please read through all of the info here.
    I believe that, Sadly, it is pretty clear that the ‘multitude of witnesses’ are speaking truthfully.

    E.Bert

  16. long_distance_observer said

    You ask what if he wanted to be romantic with his wife. How long did he lay dead in his apartment. Where was his wife? It appears as if his wife did not reside with him in that house. You state that stron drink “means what you do when you get drunk!!! You are funny. Are you a comedian or do you really define it like that. If you do, what dictionary are you using to arrive at those definitions?

    I choose to believe that you are a comedian so I will laugh with you.

    HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.

    Remember this quote by Abraham Lincoln “It’s better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to open your mouth and remove all doubt”

  17. James said

    I think Mr. Heath doesn’t know the subject of this thread.
    COGIC, a denomination that forbids alcohol and homosexuality had a gay pastor who was murdered. There are allegations that the pastor who was murdered was a pedophile rapist. I hope I caught the main points right. There was a diversion of the topic into drinking alcohol which I think here is the least of sins. Rapists and murderers should get the death penalty in my opinion.

  18. Anthony D. Heath said

    But i will say this that we all will definitely have our own opinions, and like i said i known this man Elder Paige all my life and he has never attempted such things to me, but we got ot realize that even if he had his own lil secret, or if he didnt, he was also human befor he was a pastor or elder, people out of church are doing the exact same thing he’s being of accused of and they are gven parades, i dont understand, the people of God skip the good works, and hear something like this that they dont whats true or not, but we all have our own opinions, I have mine, you have yours, and know i am not a comedian, i am a very serious person @ times, but we all are humans, and whats done is done, we all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of god, But Every thing we do we have to be held accounted of, my wrons your wrongs, thats what elder Paige taught me, but a if he was a homosexual, a that’s his life, he didnot lead the people in that way, and was not a hypocrite, he welcomed everyone, and didn’t bash other’s. and remember everything you hear on tv is fake, and somethings like my long distance friend said should have never been said, and i thank god gor you all on here and you all truly be bless, and may the blessings god Rein on you as well, Keep me in you alls Prayers, and ill do the same for you, God Bless, HEATH………..

  19. James said

    My heart goes out to the victims of this man. Maybe now the true story of what happened can come out

  20. long_distance_observer said

    Anthony,

    I didn’t want to offend you at all. I knew you when you were a little boy and I’ve known “Eld. Paige” quite a few years before you met him. It is what it is!!! He should have never been placed in leadership over anyone, this was obvious to “even the most casual observer”. I always wondered why Carrie married him; then I was informed that her first husband was also like this. This caused me to even question her!!! It’s a good thing about blogs like this, they allow us to post anonomously. You probably didn’t know that so many people who are as close to this situation as yourself, some even closer, always sounded the horn against this man being placed into pastoral leadership. The thinking when he first showed up at Earle COGIC was that he should have been on the altar seeking deliverance!!! Some that I talk to believe that this is why the Earle COGIC is almost dead today!!! I am so glad that people like Deacon Alexander, Deacon Luckett, Mother Jones, Mother Waits, Mother Berry, Mother Sanders, etc are gone home to be with the Lord and not around to see their labor tarnished. My heart goes out to the saints who are still at Earle COGIC.

    Deacon Jones needs to be held accountable for being the driving force that brought Eld. Paige into the lives of the Earle COGIC saints!!!

    Salvation is so much more than having a good choir!!!

  21. James said

    Is there any support or care for the victims of these rapes? Does anybody care?

  22. Long_Distance_Observer said

    Sure,

    There is support for the victims. They have received enormous support; I know that this man was basically forced out of Earle COGIC by those who had empathy, support, and sympathy for the victims. One Sunday. he just walked out of the church and never came back. One could never do anything but support the victims.

  23. Anthony D. Heath said

    WELL, ONE THING I DONT AGREE WITH, IS THAT I AM GLAD ELDER PAIGE CAME TO EARLE, BECAUSE HE IS THE REASON I AM SAVED, HE INTRODUCE ME TO CHRIST, IT WAS HIS TEACHINGS THAT GOT ME WERE I AM TODAY, SO I CAN’T AGREE THERE,……….

  24. James said

    Many of the Catholic priests who fondled boys had the same reaction by parishoners who they helped somewhat in their office. When a pastor does what is right many people will be one to Christ and you will have various testimonies. There are some guys out there who may never go to church again because they have been molested by clergy. They would have good reason not to trust church folks right away especially when church people won’t believe their account.
    The clegy abuse goes on and on because victims are usually treated as liars.

  25. T.D. Stephens said

    To Anthony SHUT UP!!!! You make yourself out to be a fool by the things you are saying. You never really know a person only GOD knows.

    If the man was gay it was a sin, if he drank it was a sin, if he lived any why unpleasing to God it was a sin. The wages of Sin are death!!!!!!!!! The same applies to all of us!!!!

    I’m a member of The Church of God in Christ and if there is any type of abuse whether it be sexual, physical, emotional or spiritual and they are doning nothing about it. Then may who ever is sweeping it under the rug because of the churches or their reputation, title or whatever may they all be damned to hell!! Yet, let God fight the battle at the same time. If people are being molested and they are going to the pastors or bishops reporting this and nothing is being done. WHY did you stop there?? The police should have been the first ones you called, take the person to the hospital and get a examination done so DNA can be collected.

    It’s TIMEOUT for black people to stop being DUMB and SPEAKING UP about rape & abuse.

    IT’S HOLINESS OR NOTHING THERE IS NO EXCEPTION TO THE RULE.

    There are plenty of gays who are in churches worldwide you see them in memphis, distirct meetings, state convocation or where ever. Some of them hide it but God sees it. When their time comes God will deal with it accordingly from pastor to Singer to lay memeber we will all be judged

  26. Anthony D. Heath said

    actually, first of all i dont accept that shut up, and second of all, if thats the case we should not be on here, and another thing, don’t tell me what to do, and if you claim to be in any holiness you mayke yourself look like a fool by the first thing you said shut up, so disrespectful, you aren’t nobody’s mother or father on here, i’m not making myself look like no fool you are, by getting on a 4week old conversation that was never directed to you, so don’t get on here saying that to a old conversation, and my belief is mine, yall didnt know the man and like i said nigger’s in Earle Arkansas 72301 yes i said it want attention, because if it was that serious why stop at going to the bishop’s of the church why didnt they go to the police, so who ever you are be bless and dont make yourself look like no fool,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  27. Long_Distance_Observer said

    To Anthony B. Heath…

    You said “yall didnt know the man”.. You are so very wrong. Before you came anywhere close to the Earle COGIC I had enough sense to stay away from this man. I may not have known him like you, and I thank GOd for that, but I knew him years before you met him at that church. I was disappointed that the older saints, through ignorance of God’s word, even allowed him to be minister of music, so I was shocked when I learned that he had been promoted to pastor.

    Also,
    Whether you know it or not, the zip code in Earle is 72331!!!

  28. Anthony D. Heath said

    i do know the zip code and ive lived in earle all those years, and im like this how can you all judge condem any body when the word says we in gods eyes ARE AS FILTY DIRTY RAGGS, AND ANOTHER THING YOU SAID THANK GOD YOU DIDNT MEET HIM, SO IN THAT CASE YOU DONT KNOW HIM, SO WHAT YOU ARE BASICALLY SAYING TO ME IS SINCELESS, AND SEE PEOPLE DON’T KNOW WHAT GOD IS UP TO, IF GOD SAID PUT HIM AS PASTOR, YOU CAN’T ARGUE AND SAY I DONT THINK YOU SHOULD HAVE DONE THAT GOD, IF ELDER PAIGE WAS ANY WHERE LIKE PEOPLE CLAIMED HIM TO BE I DIDNT KNOW AND WE CAN’T SIT HERE IN TYPE AND SAY THAT GODS WILL WAS WRONG BECAUSE GOD’S WILL IS NEVER WRONG, ITS JUST THE PEOPLE IN HIS WILL MESS UP, AND THATS THE REASON WHY SOME PEOPLE ARE SO DRIVEN AWAY BECAUSE THEY SIT BACK, AND TRY TO PUT THERE 2 CENTS IN THAT DONT MAKE NO SENSE AND WANT TO INTERRUPT THINGS THAT GOD HAS PUT B4 US, AND THE PEOPLE OF EARTH ARE SO QUICK TO JUDGE PEOPLE, LOOK UP THERE, ON ONE OF THE BLOGS HOW THE MAN OR WOMAN GOT ON HERE AND SAID TO ANTHONY SHUT UP YOU DONT KNOW THIS OR THAT, THEY DONT KNOW ME, BUT INSTEAD GETTING TO KNOW ME THEY ARE LIKE(IM GLAD I DIDNT GET TO KNOW THAT PERSON) AND START JUDGING ME, AND IM NOT GOING TO SAY I HAVE NEVER JUDGED WE ALL HAVE, BUT THAT’S SOME THAT HUMANS AND EVEN BLACK PEOPLE, NEED TO WORK ON, WE ARE MORE CONCERNED THAT PEOPLE ARE GAY THAN HOW MANY SOULS DID WE BRING TO CHRIST, IF HE WAS THAT WAS ELDER PAIGES LIFE, IM NOT SAYING I LIKE THE FACT OF HOMOSEXUALITY, NO!!!!!! GOD IS NOT IN THAT,BUT WHILE WE AS PEOPLE HAVE STEPPED OUT OUR PLACE AND TRIED TO BE THE JUDGE INSTEAD OF THE PEOPLE ON TRIAL, NEED TO REALIZE, THAT THOSE SINS THAT WE HAVE DONE THAT WE THOUGHT PEOPLE HAVE NOT SEEN GOD HAS SEEN OUR RECORD WILL BE THERE,,,,,AND I STAND STRONG, ON ALL MY BLOGS OR COMMENTS THAT I HAVE TYPED ON THIS PAGE, GOD BLESS YOU LONG DISTANCE PERSON WHO IS NOT IN FACT REALLY NOT LONG DISTANCE, BUT THAT’S YOU I GUESS,,,,,,,.,.,.,.,.,.(GOD WHAT ARE YOU GOING TO DO WITH YOUR PEOPLE AND THESE SAINTS, THE WRATH IS CLOSER THAN WE THINK)

  29. Arthur Moore said

    Heterosexual Bigotry is so utterly repulsive these days, evil and hypocritical etc., that it now smells like the proverbial rotting corpse! I’m a homosexual black man who knows that being homosexual, and being a child molester of males have absolutely NOTHING to do with one another. It is interesting to note that no one ever blames the molesters of female children on their heterosexuality! It’s laughable really! Furthermore, This totally stupid excuse to hate and discriminate based on the lie about homosexuality being a “choice” is unforgivable! Without this transparent “justification”, the bigots / HYPOCRITES have only one remaining, but no less stupid excuse to hate left! That excuse being the “sin” excuse! It’s clear to me now that the vast majority of heterosexuals don’t definitively know what true homosexuality is. I’ll try to clear this up in a nutshell by saying that “homosexuality is simply the state of ones having the involuntary
    inclination of being sexually attracted to members of his or her own sex. It is also the state of those same individuals involuntarily being not capable of sexual attraction to members of the opposite sex.” True bisexuality, is of course a little different and obviously more complex. I’m in fact not bisexual so I won’t venture a definition concerning that.

    Having said all of this, I want to make the point that being homosexual has NEVER had ANYTHING to do with anyone’s “religion” or spiritual life outside of an individuals personal relationship with God. The utter hypocrisy of so many habitually fornicating, adulterous, divorcing, raping, and / or molesting etc. heterosexuals is truly mind boggling and utterly pathetic! WHAT SIDE OF HELL DO THESE HYPOCRITES THINK THEY ARE GOING TO ANYWAY, according to there very own bibles?!

    Bottom line, this pastor did not “deserve” to be murdered for being “gay” as some bigots have suggested! If in deed he was attempting to forcibly rape this 21 year old young man, perhaps there’s a legitimate argument for self defense in this case. But this man’s sexual orientation is still a very moot point here! And unfortunately, we may never know what REALLY happened in that apartment on that tragic day. Pastor Paige is dead, and cannot divulge to us his side of the story!

  30. Long_Distance_Observer said

    I agree that the pastor did not deserve to be murdered for being “gay”, as yu state. Gos will take care of the “gay” people. I find it amusing how so many “homosexuals” like to talk about heterosexuals in the context of being “habitually fornicating, adulterous, divorcing, raping, and / or molesting etc.” The truth is that I, as a God fearing heterosexual, can practice my heterosexuality without sinning. I simply obey God’s word and get married, then any sexual encounter with my “WIFE” is honorable!!! There is no way that a “homosexual” can practice their “homosexaulity” without violating God’s law and thus, bringing upon themselves the wrath of God. “Romans 1 – 26-27″

    I am so tired of this old homosexual argument.. Stop comparing homosexuality to the heterosexual fornicators, adulteres, child molestors, etc. because when you make the comparison, there is a perfect MATCH!!! These heterosexual sins are just as vile and perverted as homosexuality.

    But you need to understand that not all heterosexuals are sexual sinners, as I stated above, any married heterosexual is blessed by God to have heterosexual sex with their “WIFE” but all homosexuals are sexual sinners and can be nothing but sexual sinners so long as they are homosexuals!!!

  31. James said

    This thread is the worst soap opera I’ve seen on a Christian site. This thread is proof positive that homosexuals should be in therapy. I joke a bit but not now.
    Many folks were abused and never got the help they needed. This story is tragic in that deliverance and repentance was not apparent in these guys lives.
    If you need help please pray with someone you know and trust.

  32. Arthur Moore said

    “Long_Distance_Observer”, you are just another prejudiced and bigoted heterosexual! lol This ridiculous notion that homosexuality is something that one can decide to be or not to be is stupid, and God knows already that we cannot decide to be sexually attracted to females any more than we decide to be sexually attracted to other males! Pretending to be sexually attracted to females, and / or trying to fool God that we can somehow suddenly become sexually attracted to females is idiotic! lol You people’s desperate need to hate monger where homosexual men are concerned is pathetic, laughable and ultimately evil! You are going to the very same Hell, for this reason alone, that you so desperately wish for all of us that you hate so unnecessarily!

    And one more thing, neither you or hardly any other heterosexual fornicators ever marry females that you do not first have premarital sex with in absolute violation of God’s biblical law! LOL! YOU SILLY BIGOTS ARE NOT FOOLING GOD EITHER! Get Real!

  33. James said

    As a person who didn’t fornicate with my wife before getting married I can say that self control actually works. I will write this for any sexual group you consider yourself. This is non bigoted but according to both science and faith.

    Humans are not controlled by instincts but by cognitive conditioning. If we have addictions or lack control of our behaviour then we need therapy. If we are Christians than Christian counseling is appropriate.
    Any person who is in Christ is a new creature according to the scriptures. The old is gone and the new has come. Sanctification and Repentance is for everyone.
    Christ can make anyone whole if they are willing to stretch out their hands.

  34. Arthur Moore said

    You PREJUDICED heteros can’t have it both ways! lol One minute you’re saying that heterosexuality is inborn and thus instinct, and the next, when it pleases you, you’re saying somehow that it is not. Homosexuality is in fact not a “behavior” to begin with! For your education on the subject, one does not have to DO anything to be homosexual! Homosexuality is basically an involuntary sexual attraction. Nothing more! Sexual acts don’t define it any more than does sexual acts define heterosexuality.

    Furthermore, as for your not engaging sexually with your wife before marrying her, I’d be willing to bet you were not a virgin before you married for the first time still! You prejudiced heterosexuals seem to think you can somehow trick God on a technicality. lol Most of you go out and fornicate from the time you’re about 14 or 15 until you finally decide to “marry”, only after you’ve sewn every single oat that you can get your private parts on! lol And lets be honest, the vast majority of heterosexual males certainly would have it no other way! You people can’t possibly fool God Mister! Your premeditated fornication won’t fly with him!

    And one more thing for you to chew on; Jesus never even bothered to so much as allude to anything that might be misconstrued as having to do with homosexuality, but he made it undoubtedly clear about how much he loathed HYPOCRITES! The hypocrisy of sexually based hate by the majority on to the backs of the minority is still hypocrisy, and Hell
    won’t be making the kinds of one sided distinctions that you prejudiced homophobes / hypocrites like to make so recklessly!

  35. James said

    My major in college is psychology. I am also a Christian. I don’t want to argue homosexuality but I feel that if I don’t advocate help from what I’m reading here then I’m lacking concern for my fellow man.
    I really believe that therapy is needed based on what they are writing. One of my first questions in this thread was asking about the victims of abuse.

  36. Arthur Moore said

    Unfortunately, your personal PREJUDICES obviously trumps any psychology you might have been taught! Being homosexual in reality has never had anything to do with anyone’s Christianity! You arguing homosexuality with an actual homosexual is dumb anyway! lol I actually know what i’m talking about! I am in fact homosexual after all!

    And as for “the victims of abuse”, the only reason homosexuality ever came up at all is because of so many Bigots who look for any opportunity to tie “gay” men to child abuse as if one ever had anything to do with the other. lol It will always amaze me how these same Bigots ignore the fact that most victims of childhood sexual abuse are FEMALE! HYPOCRISY still rules in this silly culture!

    • mrmiller said

      You say that sexual abuse and homosexuality are not related. I think you need to re study that. Statistics show 1 in every 5 women have been raped or molested. 1 in 7 males have been molested under the age of 10 (that’s only counting the men who would admitt it) many men have become homsexual due to some molesting male in or out of the family. Plus men are much less likley to admitt it. Some men repress it and move on. Others embrace the lifestyle.

  37. James said

    Arthur,
    I yield to your expertise in the matter of homosexuality. I don’t want to debate with you about homosexuality or trade insults.
    This is the quote I wanted an answer from anyone in the know.

    Meanwhile, the devastation caused by wolves pretending to be pastors continues. And their primary target: young boys who are seduced into their web of sexual terror.

    My question still remains the humanitarian one. How are these boys being treated?? I hope those who were abused are treated with respect and helped to overcome it all. I would like person who installed these wolves into these positions to be held accountable as well as the criminals.
    There is a lot of anger in this thread. This is a soap opera
    My intention was not to cause anger but for those who need treatment to get it.
    If your anger is still with me then I will leave this thread alone.

  38. James said

    If Bishop Blake is a good leader then he should take steps to help the boys or provide restitution. He should himself take responsible of those things that were under his control.
    Parents under Bishop Blake need to protect their children not the touchers. The church leadership should not be enablers for crime. This story even though it is a drama is a test for the leadership. They will call it an attack of the enemy but instead they have sown into what transpired and reaped death and destruction. If they repent they can turn it around.
    I won’t buy anything else that has Bishop Blakes name on if he doesn’t fully address the problem.

  39. keith said

    alot of pastors,ministers,and evangelist have things to hide.not only from the church or religious group they belong too,but also from their families.alot of these people take the position to get power and these individuals take advantage of this power.obviously this sicko took advantage of the trust of not only his church members but probably the weakest our society has.the children and the homeless.murder is never right but trying to take advantage of a person who has absolutely NOTHING.now he has a roof over his head and 3 meals a day.i have absolutely no feeling toward the individual who was murdered and i think the people in the religious group needs to start paying closer attention to the leaders in their movement.unless the leaders have something to hide themselves.this homeless kid totally lost it and was trying to get out of the situation he unfortunately got himself into.unfortunately he will probably spend the rest of his life in prison.

  40. Arthur Moore said

    The only things I am angry about in this matter are Bigotry and Hypocrisy in the end. That is it! The issue of homosexuality should never even have been brought into this to begin with, but far too many prejudiced heterosexuals look for any lame excuse to bash homosexual men in this country and especially African American heterosexuals unfortunately!

    Now, as for the issue of what happens to the innocent victims of childhood sexual abuse, I certainly agree that I hope they are receiving the treatment that they need in order to get beyond the horrors of such an experience. Still, it does grieve me that it appears that because of silly misplaced homophobic fears, male victims of childhood sexual abuse get major priority over the female victims, who of course suffer the MAJORITY of such offenses! We must as a society start to prioritize what’s REALLY important for a change!

  41. Anthony D. Heath said

    FOR ONCE I AGREE WITH LONG DISTANCE OBSERVER, WHEN GOD CREATED THE EARTH AND HUMANS, THERE WAS MAN AND WOMAN, YOU WRE NEVER MEANT TO LIKE A MAN IF YOURE A MAN, GOD IS A GOD OF REPRODUCTION AND IF YOU THINK THAT YOU WERE BORN LIKE THAT MAN YOU DO NEED THERAPY, I DONT HAVE THE FANCY WORDS BUT THE TRUTH, HOMOSEXUALITY IS A SPIRIT!!!!! NOT A LIFESTYLE OR THE WAY ONE WAS BORN, SOMETHING HAD TO HAPPEN FOR YOU TO TURN THAT WAY, AND GOD IS NOT IN THAT, AND THE BIBLE DECLARE THAT THAT IS AN ABOMINATION UNTO GOD!!!!!!!!!!

  42. James said

    Anthony,
    The more I look at this I think Bishop Blake knew about these guys but didn’t want to offend anyone at the expense of the boys. They covered this thing up to be politically correct. The guys who were abused need to get therapy but society and even some in the church want to sweep the problem away and pretend it never happened. The people who were attacked need therapy no matter how old they are now regardless of sex or orientation.
    Maybe there were some girls that were molested and it was dispatched as lies as well. Only God knows.
    The leadership that permits all this seems like they are on the down low. Unless proven otherwise this is where I stand.

  43. Arthur Moore said

    Anthony D. is just a BIGOT folks, and a dumb bigot at that! If an ACTUAL homosexual tells you people that they were “born” predestined to be homosexual, then just shut up and concede the facts to someone who actually knows what the hell he is talking about! It’s sad but clear that the bigots who need so desperately to perpetuate the (chose to be “gay”) lie, do so because without this particular LIE the evil bigots can no longer “justify” their bigotry! Theses idiots have the unmitigated gall to talk about God’s having created men to be with women as if we homosexuals somehow ignore something that God intended.LOL For the ignorant crowd on this subject, “we are simply not heterosexual to begin with; And me pretending to be sexually attracted to females is not going to make it so!” Sometimes I feel like prejudiced heterosexuals don’t even think at all when it comes to the reality about homosexual men! And this whole religious excuse to hate perpetuated by heterosexual HYPOCRITES who are constantly fornicating, adulterous, divorcing, molesting, etc. would be funny were it not so bleeping pathetic!!!

  44. keith said

    the fact of the matter is that these people who say they where born homosexuals just dont have the gutts to admit they made a DECISION.they made a CHOICE.it takes a big person to admit to the CHOICES and DECISIONS you make.we live in a country of whimps.

  45. James said

    I think Bishop Blake agrees with Arthur and allowed all this to go on. He was open to the idea that God made them that way. There are so many people caught up in various sins that orientation no big deal. Arthur describes a church full of craziness. Everybody goes there for the gospel music and the holy jerk. The Gay preachers can bring in money just like the straight ones can.

    Carlton Pearson teaches the same thing and opened up his ministry for gays. He doesn’t believe in Hell anymore.
    Blake knew the orientation of the guys preaching under him. If you are a Bishop you have to know and trust the pastors under you unless all you do is collect a check from the church.
    The church doors were open for this stuff.

  46. keith said

    like i said before alot of people with leadership roles in the church use their position for power.and when you misuse that power things happen like the murder of that sick pastor in little rock.let make one thing very clear God didnt give these people for power.God gave them that position to teach and lead the lost to Christ.no other reason.

  47. James said

    When the lights come up at this place it is showtime.
    These pastors have long departed from sound doctrine. They are teaching people to be minimal in their understanding of the Bible. They may as well open up a comedy club. Serving coffee with mugs lettered WWJD would teach people more about Christ.
    Pray that God would send people to Bible centered church without all the enablers and touchers.

  48. Arthur Moore said

    The ONLY FACTS Keith are that you evil bigot types NEED that stupid lie about “choice” to continue this horrible Bigotry and Discrimination that you HYPOCRITES are so accustomed to! No low-down heterosexual BIGOT is telling me even ONE THING about homosexuality!LOL Your ARROGANCE is idiotic in this situation!

    If I miraculously chose to be sexually attracted to other males, and at the same time chose to not be sexually attracted to females as a baby, your prejudiced dumb A– somehow did the opposite when you were an infant! lol

    I just hope the other heteros that are reading this have at least enough BRAINS to listen to an where the undeniable truths about the basics concerning homosexual attraction are concerned, rather than some common bigot who needs desperately to continue hate mongering at all costs including common sense! I’ve come to the conclusion that these Bigots are just plain Nuts!

  49. Arthur Moore said

    REVISED…

    The ONLY FACTS Keith are that you evil bigot types NEED that stupid lie about “choice” to continue this horrible Bigotry and Discrimination that you HYPOCRITES are so accustomed to! No low-down heterosexual BIGOT is telling me even ONE THING about homosexuality!LOL Your ARROGANCE is idiotic in this situation!

    If I miraculously chose to be sexually attracted to other males, and at the same time chose to not be sexually attracted to females as a baby, your prejudiced dumb A– somehow did the opposite when you were an infant! lol

    I just hope the other heteros that are reading this have at least enough BRAINS to listen to an ACTUAL HOMOSEXUAL where the undeniable truths about the basics concerning homosexual attraction are concerned, rather than some common bigot who needs desperately to continue hate mongering at all costs including common sense! I’ve come to the conclusion that these Bigots are just plain Nuts!

  50. keith said

    why are you so angry arthur.you dont know nothing about me.you throw out words like bigot,arrogance,and hypocrites.i mean dude you have no idea where i come from.i spent about 12 years of my life as a homosexual up till i was 30.i made the choice to live in that lifestyle.i wasnt born that way god didnt make me that way at birth.i choice to live that lifestyle.and i also was man enough and strong to turn away from that lifestyle.now im a single father of 2 children 11 and almost 13.and im also and person who have been lockout of alot of churches cause i know how some of the evangelist and pastors live outside the 4 walls of the so called christian church.there are alot of people in the ministry who lives a double life.so before you go around saying crap like i dont know what im talking and im homophobic and a bigot.you might want to find out something about the people your are calling names.ive been out of the lifestyle going on 14 yrs now and i have not gone back and i wont ever go back.cause it is a sickness that disgust me.this so called pastor unfortunately hide this from his congregation but he will not hide it from GOD.something else kinds of bothers me about this whole situation why did this guy have liquor in his house.and why did he live in another state from where he had his church.was he trying to hide something from his church.one thing is for sure it cant hide anything from them now.

  51. keith said

    why are you so angry arthur.you dont know nothing about me.you throw out words like bigot,arrogance,and hypocrites.the fact of the matter is arthur i lives the homosexual life for along time and 15 years ago i made the choice to turn from that lifestyle i wasnt born a homosexual i choice to be one and goddidnt make me that way.now im a single parent of 2 children 11 and 13 yrs old their mom walked out of them.she choice to do what she did.and i choice to stay and be a father no matter what.life is full of decisions and if your not strong enough to admit to a flaw in your lifestyle then you are not strong enough to see through alot of the bull people try to pull across everybody.

  52. keith said

    opps i think i wrote this twice and didnt realize it sorry you all

  53. James said

    Many churches are trying to reach out to homosexuals and be inclusive. This ministry and many others don’t require their leaders to be good examples or to use self control. The leadership ignored some pretty vile crimes because they didn’t want to go there or be judgmental. As long as money kept flowing nothing was done or said.
    Cowardice allowed the wolves to bleed the flock.

  54. Anthony D. Heath said

    i didnt say that men were predestined to be homosexuals, thats what the other guy said, i said that homosexuality is an abomination in the eyesight of God, so you might want to read up befor even you attempt again to judge me wrong again sir,,,,,,,,

  55. Arthur Moore said

    “Anthony D.” lol No Sir, am in fact saying that homosexual men are predestined to be homosexual biologically! Get it right! And as for this “abomination” garbage, God never said that, regardless of what some ancient homophobe wrote in the bible taking it upon himself to speak on behalf of the almighty; and modern day bigots are of course just loving it…all the time deliberately forgetting about the many other so-called abominations written about in the same bible…many of which apply to practically everyone on the planet in one way or another! How telling is this…

  56. Arthur Moore said

    And Keith, you are perhaps the saddest of them all Sir! I’ve met men like you before unfortunately. And in a sense, I am not so different, in an opposite way perhaps. First, I have to say that either you were never in fact homosexual, as is the case for some men who engage in sexual acts with other men for one reason or another; or you are in fact homosexual and for one or more reasons have decided to engage in heterosexual-sexual acts even going so far as marrying a female. (Some “gay” men simply need to have biological offspring) But as I said before, you may represent the hetero example.

    I will NOT however tolerate this crap about “lifestyle” that so many of you bigots like to try to trivialize homosexuality with “coincidentally” never even accidentally applying such a demeaning term to heterosexuality! LOL For this reason alone, I know you’re just a another common bigot Sir! Sex acts do not constitute, nor are they necessarily indicative of sexual orientation, be those sex acts hetero or homo in nature.

    You see, I was that other fella. I was the one who wasted my early years with women for the sake of coping with the intolerable levels of hatred and discrimination against homosexual men that was so prevalent in my unfortunate reality, even from within my on immediate family. I even lost my virginity with a girl at 16.

    My father, for instance, was the homophobe from “Hell”, and my mother was not a whole lot better. He and she are still married and together to this very day. I have only one other sibling that I am acquainted with, a slightly younger brother who is heterosexual. All of this deception with females on my part because of personal prejudices and silly fears by others, despite the fact that I knew by the age of 5, YES FIVE, that I was only attracted to other boys! I suspect that you Keith were probably a heterosexual who engaged sexually with other males because of some outside influence, in much the same way I was a homosexual who engaged sexually with females because of outside influences. I’d be willing to bet you good money however that my story is by far the more common one of the two that you’ll find in this society.

    Actual homosexuality is innate folks, unlike frivolous sex acts that anyone can engage in, and often do.

    P.S. And to answer your question Keith about my anger…I am Furious that the HYPOCRITES/Bigots have needlessly been allowed for so long to get away with their hate mongering ways hurting countless millions of innocent people along the way for selfish and cowardice reasons! It is about time “we” too became indignant about our long suffering and plight!

  57. Arthur Moore said

    IN WHAT WILL NOW BE MY CLOSING STATEMENT TO THIS BLOG; As an expert on the subject of homosexuality and being an ACTUAL Homosexual black man myself…I’m going to leave you all with some Facts, and a thing or two for you to mull over.

    As it turns out in this community, THE CIVIL RIGHTS MOVEMENT WAS INTENDED FOR HETEROSEXUAL BLACKS ONLY! And blatant bigotry against homosexual black men unfortunately still runs rampant within the African American community at large even at this late date in American history. The average heterosexual black person in this society appear to be proud homophobes! Homophobia is even an outright requirement in many heterosexual black circles strangely!

    Whites, in case anyone’s forgotten, for many years used EXCUSES, including biblical scripture, to “justify” prejudices against Blacks, in much the same way homosexuals continue to be misconstrued today.

    “Gay” whites have publicly attempted to make this point in the recent past, only to be shouted down by prejudiced and hypocritical heterosexual blacks! This tactic will NOT work with me however! I am at least as black as any heterosexual black person in this culture! I am in fact a homosexual, African American Man who grew up in the American south. Therefore I am uniquely qualified to draw such parallels. I only even bother doing so for the purpose of prayerfully achieving some degree of empathy from those hetero blacks whom so often forget that injustice anywhere is injustice everywhere!

    If those of you who are still reading by this point don’t remember anything else that I’ve said here today, I urge you to remember this, for it is my response to what is probably the most repulsive and damaging LIE that heterosexual Bigots love to tell regarding us homosexual men…(The “choose” to be homosexual LIE)

    People, it is utterly impossible to choose to be an actual homosexual person!!! No actual “gay” man ever chose to be sexually attracted to other men, let alone ever chose to not be sexually attracted to women! THIS WOULD BE HUMANLY IMPOSSIBLE TO DO! Just remember that, and eventually you’ll simply get over your misperception! Peace to you all…

    P.S. Let us all try to remember Pastor Paige and family in our prayers people; The murder victim that inspired all of this unfortunate hate baiting to begin with. The man was brutally stabbed to death for heavens sake!

    Arthur Moore / Man

  58. Anthony D. Heath said

    In the beginning God created man and woman, AND ARTHUR, U ARE ONE OF THE ONES THAT GOD GOING TO HAVE TO PROVE HISSELF TO, AND GOD DID NOT MAKE YOU OR SPEAK THAT OVER YOUR WIFE, GOD CHOSE MEN IN EARLY DAYS TO WRITE HIS WORD, BECAUSE THE WORLD NEEDED GUIDANCE, SODOM AND GOMORA(IF I SPELLED DAT RITE) HOW GOD PUNISHED THEM FOR A HOMOSEXUAL SPIRIT, YOU GOING AGAINST GOD’S WILL IS PREDESTINATION TO HELL, ALTHOUGH I’VE MADE MISTAKES AND KNOW THAT TO MEN SHOULDNOT BE TOGETHER, THAT’S RHETORICAL AND I DON’T HAVE TO STUDY IT, ITS PENIS AND VAGINA, NOT PENUS AND PENUS, NOR VAGINA AND VAGINA, ONE GOES IN AND NOT RUBB UP ON EACH OTHER, THAT’S NOT RITE, GOD SAID THAT MEN SHALL BE LOVER’S OF THESELVES WITHOUT NATURAL AFFECTION, WHICH IS NOW WHAT’S GOING ON, NOW YOU GOT DUDES CUTTING THERE PRIVATES OFF AND MAKING THEMSELVES WOMEN, SO IS THAT PREDESTINED,,,,!!!! ?????? HUHUHUHUHUHUH GOD CREATED YOU AND THESE OTHER MEN, MEN!!!!! NOT KNOW ONE THAT SHOULD BE HOLDING HANDS WITH THE SAME KIND OF GENDER, AND YOU SHOULD KNOW THAT’S NOT RIGHT, AND ANOTHER THING THAT’S NOT A LIFE, THATS A SPIRIT, IF YOU WANT TO GET REALLY SPRITUAL, AND YOU ARE CONFUSED BECAUSE YOU ARE MEANT TO BE WITH A WOMAN OR JUST BY YOURSELF IF YOU CHOOSE, SO GOD BLESS YOU AND I HOPE THAT GOD REALLY SHOWS HIMSELF TRUTHFULLY TO YOU, AND IM NOT A BIGOT, AND IF YOU WANT TO TALK ABOUT BACK IN THE DAY WITH WHITE PEOPLE, I CAN SAY ALL I AM IS A BLACK NIGGER THAT HAS THE WORD OF GOD IN MY LIFE, YOU STUDY ALL THIS OTHER NONSENSE ARTHUR, U MAY NEED TO STUDY THE WORD OF GOD, WOW THATS A GOOD BOOK, START FROM GENESIS AND GO TO REVELATIONS,,,,,,,,,,BE BLESSED MY BROTHER…..+

  59. Long_Distance_Observer said

    James,

    Sorry for the long delay in responding. I have been very busy lately. First of all, I practiced abstinance prior to marraige, so I did not fornicate. That appears to be a method of most homosexuals. Because they sin, they assume that everyone else has committed like sins so is not capable of calling homosexuality the sin that it is. However, there are many heterosexuals who kept themselves as the bible instructs until marraige. Also, there are many men who are not currently attracted to a female, but they are not homosexual. They are single. It is not possible that God would create a homosexual then destroy them continually, whether in Sodom or as stated above in Romans 1. Although my major in college was not psychology, I know that people are born Homosexual as much as people are born Racists!!! Where in the Bible does God create a Homosexual. He destroyed them, but nbo where will you see wheree he created them!! He said he created male and female and for this cause a man shall leave his father and mother and cleave to his wife.

    However, I do believe that there is a place for homosexuals in the church. IT’S ON THE ALTAR SEEKING DELIVERANCE!!!

    I am not “another prejudiced and bigoted heterosexual” as you indicate. My only concern is that the sanctity of marriage as God implemented it remains and any unatural use of either sex is identified and called out as the sin that it is. It appears that for you homosexuality is normal and natural, I can understand that because it appears as if you are a sinner. It is normal and natural for sinners to sin. So to practice homosexuality, you are abiding within the realm of sin that is common to homosexuals, fornicators, liars, etc.

  60. James said

    Those of you who need therapy for being abused or abusing children please seek counseling immediately.
    Don’t let the media or pop culture say all this craziness is God’s fault you are the way you are. Humans who are sane have control over their bodies.
    Don’t let other people’s sin or hypocrisy prevent you from seeking deliverance. Apparently homosexuals are avoiding counseling because they see the sins of heteros.
    Please don’t disrespect this website with racial slurs. Please abolish the “n” word at jesus christology.

  61. UNKNOWN said

    THIS CONVERSATION SHOULD NOT HAVE BEEN TAKIN THIS FAR. PASTOR PAIGE WAS MY MOMS PASTOR WHEN SHE WAS A CHILD, BUT SINCE THEN SHE HAS NOT LIVED IN ARKANSAS. WHAT HAPPENED, HAPPENED. YOU CANT TAKE BACK YESTERDAY. ON THE DAY OF JUDGEMENT ALL TONGUES MUST CONFESS NO MATTER WHAT, THERE WILL BE NO GETTING AWAY FROM IT. HOW YOU LIVE YOUR LIFE, GOD SEES IT ALL AND THERE IS NOTHING THAT YOU SAY, THINK OR DO THAT GOD DOES NOT SEE OR KNOW. HOW HE LIVED HIS LIFE THAT WAS HIS PERSONAL INFORMATION. I REALLY AND TRULY DONT BELIEVE THAT THERE SHOULD HAVE BEEN A WIDE OPEN DISCUSSION LIKE THIS THAT WENT ON FOR THREE MONTHS. THE REASON WHY I AM ON THIS IS BECAUSE I JUST WATCHED THE CASE OR WHATEVER ON THE FIRST 48, AND IT WAS SAD AND STILL IS BUT LIKE I SAID YOU CANT TAKE BACK YESTERDAY, WHATS DONE IS DONE.

    • Another Observer said

      Dear Unknown,

      I watched the First 48 show and was also sadden by the whole show. Also, like your mom Elder Paige was also my pastor as a child and these rumors were going on then as well. I feel bad for his wife and daughter but there’s nothing that can be done now but keep them in our prayers. I also agree with Long Distant Observer because if these conversations would have happened long before now, maybe this would not have happened. Let’s continue to pray for one another.

  62. UNKNOWN said

    WE ARE ALL GOING TO PAY FOR OUR SINS AND AS FOR THE UNBELIEVERS YOU WILL DIE AND THERE IS A HEAVEN AND HELL. SO IF YOU HAVE NOT BEEN SAVED AND YOU WANT TO IN ORDER TO DO THIS YOU HAVE TO CONFESS WITH YOUR MOUTH AND BELIEVE WITH YOUR HEART. THE YOUNG MAN WILL PAY, BUT IF HE REPENT AND TURN HIS LIFE OVER TO GOD AND TRULY BELIEVE IN THE POWER OF GOD THEN, HE IS SAFE, SAVED AND REDEEMED.

  63. Long Distance_Observer said

    This is actually a good conversation. This discussion has gone on for quite a few months, what Ron Paige did went on for decades. I would prefer the wide open discussion to the homosexual molestions in private. Jesus said that what’s done in darkness would come to the light.

    wE NEED MORE DISCUSSIONS LIKE THIS TO EXPOSE THE WOLVES IN SHEEP’S CLOTHING!!

    • Another Observer said

      I agree with you about having open discussions and exposing the wolves in sheeps clothing. I’m so sick of hearing about cases like this. Let’s just keep the family in our prayers. Others or innocent family members often get hurt more than the accused. I do however also feel bad for the young man. I hate he ran the opposite way instead of to the police.

  64. mrmiller said

    I’m curious…if Christ died for our sins? Thn why would we still have 2 pay 4 them…Once you are saved you Cannot!!! Lose your Salvation..our reward in Heaven may be baised on our works and our obedience. However our “entry” into heaven is soley due to the righteousness of Jesus Christ.. So please don’t error in that doctrine or issues like Alcohol and other Legalistic issues will influence your eternal security. The situation with Mr Paige is a Ad one because everyone involved is in some way a victim.. I agree homosexuality is a sin..But should it be looked upon worse then an Adulterer or Fornicator??..Sin is Sin..either Christ paid For ALL sin..or the Gosple is Irrelevant. So lets not be 2 “hasty” to judge mr paige..even tho its apparent he made quite a few unwise decisions

    • Mr. Brown said

      To reply to the comment of you cannot loose your salvation. Im a firm believer that u can. There is belief once saved always saved. I believe you have to do your works over again and a saint has to repent and ask forgiveness same as a sinner. We have to teach the word right not what we feel . I also believe we have to go back to the alter and show humility and get out of these positions and judging one another for Sins. I agreee Sin Is Sin , we have to do what it takes to get it right with God theres no halfway point its all or nothing . We have to get it right down here if we want Heaven to be our home.

      • mrmiller said

        Dear mr Brown. If u think that u can in fact Lose a Gift God gave you by shedding his blood on the cross then you believe in a “works salvation” don’t take that statment the wrong way because Good works has its place in the life of the Christian. So believing in Eternal security isn’t anew Concept..if you study the writings of the Apostle paul with a clear unbiased mind. You will see that Grace Through faith alone saves us..The holy Spirit keeps us until the day of Reward/judgement. The power of Gods grace is So amazing deep down we feel a need to do sumthn “works” to earn it. Fave it no works you can do will pay 4 yr salvation if it could then the law would not have been abolished..read Gal 2ch 16verse. Its really very plain as to how God saves. Its to bad we a humans try 2 reinforce what God has already acomplished. Hence the words of Christ on the cross. “It is finished” the only role we play in the salvation process is believeing that his blood has covered our sins past, present, and future. Non belief in that is a disgrace to the work on the cross

      • Job said

        Mr. Brown:

        For the person that is truly born again, the Holy Spirit will convict him of his unrighteousness and he will repent. However, studying the true nature of sin and of God’s amazing inconceivable holiness, you will come to the realization that everyone – including Christians – sin constantly. Sin isn’t just going out and committing the acts that a religious or moral culture frowns on, like going out and committing murder, rape, theft, adultery or child molestation. Instead, the Bible makes it clear (see the teachings of Christ in the gospels as well as the book of James): we sin in our MINDS. Only OCCASIONALLY do the sin that is in our MINDS manifests into sin with our bodies, and even there 99% of the sin in our minds that becomes sin through our bodies are when we sin by SPEAKING, by speaking falsely, proudfully, carelessly, or thoughtlessly.

        So, when a person realizes how often a man – even a Christian – sins, that is when the “lose your salvation” doctrine becomes unworkable. The “lose your salvation” doctrine is passed about by people who have a low view of sin … who believe that there are only a few sinful acts which people – especially devoted religious people – rarely commit. That was the basis for Pelagianism. You convince yourselves that there are only about a dozen sins, of those there are only 2 or 3 that you are tempted with to any degree, and if you can resist those you are fine. That is what Pelagius himself was convinced of … the fellow was very sure of his own righteousness and sinlessness (never forget, he was a MONK, and Jesus Christ specifically told us not to do the monastic lifestyle in John 14-17, to be in the world as salt and light but not of it!) that he harshly judged and condemned everyone else as inferior to him (and, of course, his fellow monks).

        Really, that is a position of spiritual immaturity. The more one serves Jesus Christ, the more one obeys Jesus Christ, the more one studies God’s Word, and the more Jesus Christ is revealed to a person by the Holy Spirit, then the more a person realizes that he is a sinner. That is precisely what Paul was going through in Romans 7. A lot of people try to claim that Paul is talking about the plight of the unconverted sinner in Romans 7, but that is so ridiculous for too many reasons to enumerate. People insist that Romans 7 speaks of the non-Christian as opposed to the mature Christian who is aware of how he cannot possibly measure up to Jesus Christ because they pridefully overestimate their own righteousness.

        So when you realize that everyone – including the Christian – sins constantly, and most of the sins are in your mind, and most of the remainder are in your tongue, and that even the greatest righteousness of man is mere refuse and excrement to God and therefore not accepted, that is when this “you can lose your salvation” doctrine gets to be so strange. What sin causes you to lose your salvation? Murder? How, when Jesus Christ stated that getting angry with someone without a cause is the same as murder? Is it adultery? How, when Jesus Christ stated that every man who has passed a billboard with a lingerie model on it an adulterer? And most Christians don’t know (or practice) what the Bible REALLY says about even such “mild” and “accepted” sins like “white lies” and gossiping … the Bible calls them the equivalent of murder. Read the Psalms about how David agonized over the lies and gossip being spread about him and see what I am talking about.

        Bottom line: if it were possible to lose your salvation, there isn’t a human on the planet who would stay saved for more than half an hour. Go back to the altar? You’d lose your salvation again before you even get up. This “lose your salvation” doctrine is due to people having an institutional or religious view of sin (where sin is defined by a church or pastor or society) or a humanist view of sin (which denies original sin and claims that people are basically good and have the power to control themselves, and so only the REALLY BAD things that hurt other people are sin). Either way, that is not how the Bible defines sin, because the person who has the Bible’s view of sin knows that if it was possible to lose your salvation, no one would ever be able to keep it!

        • mrmiller said

          That was a beautiful post I agree totally. Ill add that many people think Paul was addressing sinners when in fact he was addressing the church. Paul didn’t write any book to sinners because how can a person in darkness understand the light of the word. Every epistle paul wrote including his personal letters were to saint..yes SAINTS!..read how sinful the Corinthian saints were. And by the way they were the most gifted (tounge speakin) church of that era. Yet paul needs two letters of correction to them. Being saved according to your own works is a demonic doctrine. Period.Arminianism has done more hard than good to the church. And if some of you tounge talking christians are unclear what arminianism/calvanism is. Your out of your study group on this one. Please go study the History of the church and not some Johnny come lately who’s only sermon is “TELL HIM YEAH, AHHHHHHH YEAH”

  65. Long_Distance_Observer said

    Mr. Miller and everyone else. Of Course you can loose your salvation!!! To be saved means simply to be rescued or delivered from something. We “the saints” have been rescued or delivered from the punishment of Hell. But since we are yet in the land of living, this rescue is a future event. It hasn’t occurred and will not occur until we face God and are provided access into Heaven instead of Hell. Then the salvation will have occurred. So while we are living we are saved by “Grace”, but through “Faith”. “For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Eph 2:8″ “Faith” gives us confidence that this future event of “Grace” will happen only if we are obedient to God’s law while we live. If anyone disobey God’s law, then this future event of “Grace”, salvation from Hell, will not occur and hence they will not be “Saved”!!

    So all of the work that Jesus did, work that you so thoroughly outlined, are works of “Grace” that are obtained through “Faith”. If one ever discontinues his/her walk of “Faith”, they disqualify themselves from receiving the benefits of this work of “Grace”, namely salvation…

  66. Mr miller said

    Long distance observer….I appreciate your response to my post and I must say I read yours quite carefully…

    It appears there is a Fundamental flaw to your statement, if I am correct you are Saying that Salvation is a “future” occurence? To some degree I I agree with you But to better explain it Salvation occures in yout past, your present and your Future…Once you are saved you are immediatly saved from your past sins as they are not held against you…Point 2, you are saved presently because the Bible throught the nes Testament Makes it clear you are also saved at that moment…now this brings me to point 3 the future..Once you are saved you are Also saved from the Everlasting punishment of Sin which will become “manifested” in the Future..

    The verse you quoted does not support your “theory” that salvation on earth is simply a promisary note to be paid at a future time only if the person keeps a Law that Paul stated could not be kept in the flesh.

    To fully understand salvation you must understand grace..and to understand Grace you must understand the Law AND THE PURPOSE For which it was given, Paul makes it Clewar throught Romans that it was never the Intention of God to use the Law as a means or “works” for Christ salvation…Any Salvation obtained that does not include Christ and his Atonment on the Cross is simply a False Doctrine and an Apostacy..Study the book of James he makes it quite clear…also Gal 2 16 17 spells it out clearly that the law takes no part in our eternal salvation

    • Long_Distance_Observer said

      Mr. Miller,

      I disagree. Without faith it is impossible to please God. Our entire Christian walk is based on Faith in God, that is God will do what he says he will do if we do what he commands us to do. Saved from you sins does not mean that you are saved from your past sins because your past sins are wash away. Why would you need to be saved from anything that has been washed away? You are, however saved from continuing to sin. If you return to the sin, you loose the salvation. If a man’s salvation is not a future event, then one could repent, obtain salvation, then return to sinful ways knowing that they have secured salvation… I think not.

  67. Another Observer said

    This has turned into a debate of who knows more about the bible. The word is not a debate so drop it and everyone study to spread the word not debate it. This started over a year ago about this Pastor who was murdered for what we don’t know to be true. Does anyone know how his church or family is doing? Has this young man got out yet?

  68. Mr Miller said

    Your making funamental intepretation errors my friend…Listen to yr Logic, your saying their is a diffrence between being saved from “past” sins..or Past sins being “washed” away. The concept of either word is the same..once saved past sins no longer play a role in the belivers life

    Your second error is your interpretation in the phrase “returning to sin” anyone who has been saved by Jesus Christ is Saved indeed..”for whom the Son set Free is free Indeed”…here however is the paradox ALL saints have commited some type of SIN AFTER their conversion expirience..To believe your Point of View a person would NEVER! Truly have the full Assurance of salvation because face it Saints sin daily while in this flesh. Paul made that quite clear in Romans when he Said..”who shall deliver me from the curse of the flesh”, he points out in that entire Chapter the Struggle Christians have in the flesh.

    My friend by all means get a full Interpretation of Bible Context with regards to our relationship With Christ As a Savior, the early church Held Yr views..They were Called Galations. Paul dedicates an entire Book Regarding Legalism And Law Observing as a Means to Help wash away sins

    In conclusion..Have FAITH in the song I’m sure you learnd as a Child…”what can wash away my Sins, NOTHING but the Blood of JESUS”…NOT GOOD Works..God bless

  69. Long_Distance_Observer said

    No, you make quite a few fundamental errors, my friend. I’ll deal with your interpretation of Romans 7th Chapter. One must first realize that Romans is an epistle, or a letter. It was not written in chapters and books, but as a complete letter to those located in the area of what was known as Rome in that day. That being said, Paul did ask, ”who shall deliver me from the curse of the flesh”, but he answered his own question in chapter 8, verse 2 when he said “For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death”. So he first poses the question to his audience by asking who will make him free, then he answers his question by telling them what made him free! This is known as a rhetorical question and is one of the most powerful persuasive tools utilized to prove a point!!! The point here really was remaining consistent with what he already had stated in Romans 6:1, “Shall we continue in sin that grace may aboune? GOD FORBID!”

    On another point, we do not all sin daily. We don’t all continue in sin. The point to be made is that saints don’t continue to willfully sin. Once again, Hebrews 10:26 states that “if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins”. How can one be saved and continue to willfully sin when the bible screams that if one continues to sin, then there is no other sacrifice that can cover or wash away their sins? Keep in mid that the Blood of Jesus is the sacrifice for our sins… but only if we are willing not to continue in our sins!

    Note that the bible says in I John 2:1 “And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous”, It did not say “when” any man sins.

    So once again, salvation from the destruction and damnation of hell is a future event that we obtain by grace and through faith. It can only be future because if one backslides and continue to willfully sin, the Hebrews 10:26-27 indicated that they will edure the firery wrath of an angry God (Hell).

    My friend, a full interpretation is indeed needed, but I think the scriptures speak for themselves and we should just obey them. That song did not address the fullnes of our conversation, because according to Hebrews 10:26, even the blood of Jesus won’t wash away your sins if you continue to willfully sin!

  70. Mr Miller said

    My Friend…(long distant Observer) I don’t think we are as far Apart on this ISSUE as you may think, Yes you are Correct the Book of Romans IS in fact a Letter to the Citizens And Christians in the Roman Society. And you are correct with regards To Romans 8.2..but Paul makes it Crystal Clear in tht verse..LIFE IN CHRIST JESUS hath made him free from Sin..(not Good Works)

    On Another note if you Study with due dilligence you are aware tht the word “backslider” is not even mentioned in the New Testament..(the Grace we are now under) I think the Book of Galations is prob the best Book 2 Study with Regards to this issue of Eternal Security, but since we are Using The book of Romans, then you have to explain Romans 3.20 where Paul Says…”KJV” therefore by the Deeds of the Law THERE SHALL NO FLESH BE JUSTIFIED IN HIS Sight for By the LAW is the KNOWLEDGE of sin

    My friend please don’t Assume I’m suggesting that once one is Saved that they Continue to live a “LIFE OF SIN”..by all means no…however they DO Commit sin be it by Omission or Commision, Romans 6.1 is VERY clear about CONTINUING in sin, anyone who CONTINUES in sin isn’t saved from the begining,

    But one who may Need Deliverance, or have real soul issues and for them Salvation is indeed instant however Santification is a process…and If any Man/woman says thet HAVE NO SIN…then The Truth does not abide in them…As saints of God Lets Stop faking it..we have issue that will never be adressed if we continue to hide them behined misused church Doctrine..its Hurting the Church Boday as a whole…to live a Saved life as you have suggested under Legalism is Bondage my Friend…I Pray God Frees yr Mind From Bondage because if yr saved..you have already been freed from Sin..Christ said on the Cross it is Finished…Àmen 2 that cuz WE cud never finish the job…We can’t cause or Earn our salvation..thts the True Meaning of Grace my Friwnd..I pray yr eyes soon open…you w remember me..God bless and Keep studyn..gotta go now Preaching Next Sunday

  71. Long_Distance_Observer said

    My mind has been freed from bondage since I accepted Jesus as my saviour. I am awainting his return for me so I can lay hold on eternal life with him, or accept my salvation from Hell. As long as there is a possiblilty that I could go to hell, then I haven’t been saved from it. I will have been saved from it when it is no longer possible for me to experience. The phrase “saved from sin” has been misused and abused so much that I find many cofessed Christians don’t even understand what they are saying. Once one is saved, they shouldn’t “wilfully sin” or according to Hebrews 10:26, there is nothing else that can be done to grant them salvation.

    The real problem with the church is that we try to water down the gospel message to accomodate us and make us right. If the bible says that If we sin wilfully after we know the truth there is no sacrifice for our sins, I believe that the intelligent, omniscient God meant exactly what he said.

    The passage that you quote with Paul’s struggle is a perfect example. Paul was not willfully sinning. He willed to obey God word, but not having experienced the “Law of life in Christ Jesus” he was unable to do what he willed to do. But, don’t worry, once he experienced the law of life in Christ Jesus, he was no longer condemned, he walked after the spirit and not after the flesh.

    NEVER IS ACCEPTING WHAT GOD SAID IN HIS WORD LEGALISM!
    I will always keep studying, but I strongly suggest that you do the same.

    I have to preach also on Sunday, but if you would like to continue this discussion, I’m more that willing.

  72. Mr Miller said

    Well when Paul is Talking in Hebrews About Not sinning wilfully after coming into the Knowlege of the truth..he isn’t speaking of Carnal or Moral Sin..Refer 2 any halway Decent Commentary and it will show you tht thru proper intepretation, As well as Being in Context with the entire Book of Hebrews which Addresses The doing away with Lawful Ceremonies and looking to Christ As our High Priest, and if We REJECT that redemptive Blood of Christ on the Cross then We Have no Furture sacrafice..we are Lost without him even if we keep the law THTS wht Paul was saying when you read it in its entire context

    But a Proper Context A verse for this Conversation with Regards to “WORKING On YOUR SALVATION AFTER CHRIST HAS PAID THE DEBT)..how do you explain Gal 2 21..”Do not Frustrate the Grace of GOD for IF RIGHTEOUSNESS come by the LAW then Christ is Dead In Vain,

    Yes I believe you are saved, however its not yr “Good works” and law keeping thts keeping you saved..its because God has enough grace for All our sins by just Dying once, yes as Christians in this flesh we sin for we are in corruptable flesh..but we do not CONTINUE IN SIN. Big diffrence, And if Any Man He has no sin he is a lie and the truth does not dwell in him, yr sin may not be polar with regards to how WE HUMANS grade sin..but all sin is sin..and the Wages of sin is Death which is why we All will Taste Death..(except those alive at his Return) for we All have sinned and come short of his Glory..But thanx be to God Jesus Has Taken The Victory from the Grave, and the Sting out of Death.

    So I live with the Assurance everyday of My salvation..I kno that God Has saved Me From My Sins, And that his Saving Power is Good Enough to Keep Me if I Stumble and Fall, because thru His Grace He forgives me even whn its hard 4 me 2 4give myself, that’s the God I serve, a God who is Just and Merciful. My Motivation to not Continue in a life of sin isn’t to secure my mind about Heaven..no I present my Body as a Living Sacrafice because it is My Reasonable service…in other words..You don’t do “good” works FOR salvation…you do good works BECAUSE of salvation

  73. Long_Distance_Observer said

    I like talking to you

    First point. “Any halfway decent commentary”, as you put it would first say that the writer of Hebrews is unknown. Although it is written in a the style of other Pauline epistles, it can not of attributed to the Apostle Paul. So when you start by saying “when Paul is Talking in Hebrews”, you are taking liberties that should not be taken!

    These liberites should never be taken when the central point is God’s word!!

    You then differentiate between moral and carnal sin. A differentiation that I well understand but I take issue with your characterization; however we have to take I John 5:17 and conclude that “all unrighteousness is sin”. So whether it is moral or carnal, it is sin and sin leads to death.

    To jump to good works moves to an entirely new discussion. A discussion for which I would be more than glad to have, but I like to close one door before opening another. So while we are discussing the topic at hand , I’d like to stay focused on it.

    I do agree that Go is able to keep you if you stumble and fall, He keeps me also. But I believe in the powerful God that Jude referred to in Jude 24 when he said “Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,…” If God can keep you when you stumble and fall, He can keep me from falling! This I know because the aforementioned scripture said he could!!

  74. Mr Miller said

    Your Assesment of Paul is very true..but I don’t think me taking the Liberty of Applying Paul as the Author of Hebrews is far Fetched at all..just like associating the book of Esther 2 Ezra or Song of Solomon to the king himself

    You must admitt the writing Style in Hebrews is more thn likley the work of Paul, however its what the Theme of Hebrews is as well as the Author

    As u so well put ALL UNRIGHTEOUSNESS IS SIN, and All Sin is worthy of death…Can Jesus Keep us From Falling?..By all means YES!..however in the event one DOES fall… my point is that their Eternal Security isn’t at Stake

    What I’m saying in a nutshell is simply this…We Are Saved By Grace Through Faith..the Grace is Gods un merrited favor, in other words..”GRACE” is when God gives us what we Don’t Deserve, And Mercy is when God Witholds From Us what we Do Deserve..(yes u can use tht phrase).

    So to live a life in constant fear of..”did I do sumthn 2day 2 lose my Salvation?” is an Apostacy Against the Gosple. Because take time to review yr Logic..IF We CAN lose our Salvation..then WE must have done something to EARN it…

    My dear friend there is NOTHING we can do 2 earn Salvation, and quite often its taught in churches tht by being “Moral” you in some way have a “right” 2 boast or brag..you are well aware that we cannot boast of anythn…2 God Be the Glory for our Redemption, its why we can’t sit in Judgement of others when it takes all we have to “let not sin reign in our Mortal Bodirs”…he never said sin was Vacated from yr Body..but 2 keep sinful flesh under subjection, do saint sometimes fail with that Act, of course we all do..but our eternal security is not in jeapardy due to it. Because if it is..then no1 can truly live a “free” life as they w never have full Assurance of salvation, because the sins we don’t Quantify we feel God doesn’t either

    Oh yes we preach against Homosexuals, Fornication, being Drunk, Adultery, those are “easy” sins to cry out against..but the Jealousy of preachers…Gluttony, envy, lust of power, misuse of Gods people, failing 2 meet needs of the saint, we fail 2 properly spread the Gosple, we are safe in our own churches surrounded by our own people be it Race or whatever, so please don’t tell me God is Pleased with The Church body..we divide the Body of Christ, we set up our own Doctrine..I could go on an on,

    So what I’m saying is Yes most Bible Toting people Claim to be SIN FREE..an never have so much as a evil thought, you kno as well as I do if Christ Came Today and Our Eternal security Was Dependant on OUR Actions or Works then We WOULD ALL BE ON THE SCALES…WE WOULD ALL BE TRIED…and WE WOULD ALL BE FOUND WANTING

  75. Mr Miller said

    Better yet..study these verses when u have time in Depth, and I think you will have a Full Understanding of How My Opinion is Bible Oriented.

    Jer 17.9 ” The Heart is Deceitful Above All Things (powerful statment) And Beyond Cure, who can understand it”.

    Romans 3.22 23 This RIGHTEOUSNESS FROM GOD comes through Faith in Jesus Christ to ALL WHO BELIEVE..(not 4 all who perform Good works) v23 For All have sin and come short of the Glory of God, Keep in mind there is NOTHING on the Other Side of ALL

  76. Long_Distance_Observer said

    I’ll respond to the first email first:

    You say “Because take time to review yr Logic..IF We CAN lose our Salvation..then WE must have done something to EARN it…” But I , as well as so many others, have lost things that were given to me. So your logic of saying that if I lose something, I must have earned it is totally incorrect logic. You can lose what someone gives you, it happens all the time. Salvation is a gift, of course we don’t earn it, but if we do not follow the guideline of the giver, we will lose it. I have lost many gifts that were given to me in the past simply by not taking care and protecting them!!!

    I won’t speak for “most bible toting people”, because I, like you, take issue with so many things that are proclaimed under the banner of Christianity and in the name of the Lord. I work hard each Sunday in worship and Tuesday in bible class to dispell many of these errors, but we have to attribute the power of salvation from hell to the work of Christ on the cross, then we must accept that work. But the acceptance comes with the guidelines of the giver, and if one ever decides to cease obeying the guidelines of the giver, then they loose access to the gift. It’s just that simple.

    Also, there is never a reason for saints to live in constant fear that they have done something wrong as the bible states in Romans 8:1, “There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh but after the spirit”. This is consistent with my earlier response! Remember also then what Galations 5:16 says “This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh”. So if we walk in the Spirit, we will not continue to wilfull sin!!

    I hear you on Jeremiah 17:9. The heart is deceitful, but don’t you believe that this is the reason that “if any man be in Christ he is a new creature,” the word that I emphasize here is “NEW”, or be not conformed to this world but be ye transformed by the RENEWING of your minds. This is the reason the Psalmist prayed in Psalm 51:10 “Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me.”

    I also hear you on Romans 3:22-23 with one exception. The text states all have sinned (past tense). This, once again goes with my earlier post, but I will simply state that “All have sinned” but all don’t continue in sin!!! Christians cease living a life of sin because we have been set free by the law of life in Christ Jesus!!!

  77. Mr Miller said

    Ok lets look at wht u said, fitrst of All yes David did Say Create in me a Clean heart..but as I am sure you are aware David Continued to sin after Bathsheda, Remember God told him Not to Number the People, God Does Create a new heart in us..But its a Spiritual one, as Nicodemus asked can a man b born of flesh twice?…of course not..Man when He is Born Again is Born of “spirit” not Flesh

    It would appear you view Salvation as a Means of God making “bad men Good”…when in Fact Salvation is God Making “dead men Alive”

    Take 4 example the Prodigal son.he lived a LIFE of sin..but came 2 himself while in sin, and returned to his fathers house AS A SON WITH a RING, ROBE, SHOES Ect…while the Son who never left was the one really lost. You say that you CAN lose the Salvation God Gives us…please give an example of a Saved person secure in Christ..doing sumthn 2 LOSE the gift of salvation..Not an example of a hippocryte..who Christ said he NEVER knew frm begining…but a Clear an Concise example of a Man Once secure losing that security thru their own actions and paying tht price in hell…Which human was that? I’m eager for yr response. God gives us guidlines on how to represent him, how not to embarass the Church Body, how to live a saved and Holy life as best we can in a sin filled world, our bodies will not inherit the new heaven or new Earth..because it has been stained with sin

    But fear not, God has Created 4 us a NEW body, not subject to the law of sin..(back 2 Romans again)

    You can find verses all day long that speak against sin and Gods Displeasure for sin and his impending Judgment For Sin…But You Can’t Find where it says…WE Will Lose Our Salvation And End up in Hell If we Sin After our Conversion Expirience..thts essentially what yr saying..and if that stament doesnt make sense…Then that’s Good..Because it Really Doesn’t make sense

    Christ told a theif on the Cross…This day you will be with me in Paradise..wasn’t Because of the theifs GOOD works or lack of sin..it was because he Accepted the Debt Christ paid on the cross…I think the Examples Speak 4 themselves

  78. Long_Distance_Observer said

    No,

    I haven’t really said anything, i’ve let the scriptures speak for themselves. My view of salvation is “God making the old man new” or re-creating the person. in other words a “NEW CREATURE”. Romans 6:6 “Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.”

    7″: For he that is dead is freed from sin.

    “8″: Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:

    “9″: Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.

    “10″: For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.

    “11″: Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

    “12″: Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.

    “13″: Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.

    “14″: For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

    “15″: What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

    “16″: Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

    “17″: But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.

    “18″: Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

    I think that this passage of scripture says it all.

    God talking with you but I have to go for today. I’ll check back on this site later tonight or early in the morning

    Be blessed mt brother!

  79. Mr Miller said

    Since the Dividing line of our perspective is Eternal security allow me to leave you with a few verses that support the Doctrine

    St John 10 28…this is Christ talking, “I give them Eternal life and THEY SHALL NEVER PERISH no one can snatch them out of my Fathers Hand My Father who IS Greater then All, no one can snatch them out of my hand

    Eph 4.30 And do not Grieve the Holy Spirit of God with with whom you were sealed till the Day of Redemption.

    The last phrase didn’t say we were sealed till we sinned after conversion… an now we hafta be resealed..an resealed again

    Romans 8 38…For I am Convinced that neither death nor life neither angels nor demons neither the present or the future, NOTHING will seperate me From the Love Of God

    And that means Nothing, my Eternal Security is for Certain and for sure..because he will continue the Good work he started in me until the Day of Jesus Christ..not until I fall thn thr work stops???

    I have no doubt you have been sealed by God, its just a shame you don’t live with full Assurance…Good luck on Sunday..Gotta Go..Glad to have a Docile disscussion without name calling and arguing…the body of Christ would really grow if people did this more often…keep in touch! God bless

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