Jesus Christology

Earnestly Contending For The Faith Once Delivered To The Saints Jude 1:3

OK Oneness Liars Here Is The Best HISTORICAL Proof That Your Claims Are False

Posted by Job on October 25, 2007

Similar to Mormons and Jehovah’s Witnesses, many Oneness Pentecostals claim that their unitarian view of the godhead is the true apostolic biblical faith and doctrine, and that the Holy Trinity came as a result of paganism being introduced into the church down the line. Well, if that is true, then this paganism took over the church rather quickly; long before Constantine and the Council of Nicea in the fourth century. Why? Because the oldest recorded Christian hymn, Hail, Gladdening Light!, which was being sung as early as 150 AD, is utterly Trinitarian! Now this date is key, because church tradition generally holds that the Gospel of John and Revelation were the last books of the New Testament and that one or the other was written as late as 96 AD, as the beloved disciple apostle John lived an exceptionally long time. So this hymn was being sung than 60 years after the New Testament was completed and the apostle John died, meaning that people that were personally taught by John and the other apostles were still alive, and thus would have contended against any paganism, heresy, or false doctrine expressed by it (as after all, in those days people actually did contend against false doctrines rather than just throw up their hands and say “who am I to judge … I am just going to remove the beams from my eyes before I go take the speck out of the eyes of the antinomian gnostics over there … who is to say that the montanists, marcionites, arianists, etc. are wrong and I am right … only God knows the heart and He will restore these good hearted Christians and forgive them on judgment day).

People, this is why the intellectual component of our faith, disciplines like systematic theology and church history, cannot be ignored. I would like to know what “oneness historian” deceiver Dr. Curtis Ward with his “unbroken Church lineage in which the oneness church began in the first century and has succeeded in continual perpetuity throughout history” says about this? Well, below is the hymn, and thanks to Ingrid Schlueter of Hope In Laodicea for providing it. Here post (which can be accessed here: Hail, Gladdening Light!) also provides an audio recording of the song.

Hail, gladdening Light, of his pure glory poured,
who is immortal Father, heavenly blest;
Holiest of Holies, Jesus Christ our Lord!

 Now are we come to the sun’s hour of rest;
the lights of evening round us shine,
we hymn the Father, Son and Holy Spirit divine.

 Worthiest art thou at all times to be sung,
with undefiled tongue,
Son of our God, Giver of life, alone!
Therefore in all the world thy glories, Lord, they own.

725 Responses to “OK Oneness Liars Here Is The Best HISTORICAL Proof That Your Claims Are False”

  1. Jen said

    This does not prove the Trinity. Remember that Oneness Pentecostals recognize Father, Son, AND Holy Spirit as offices of GOd, or the ways he manifests himself to mankind. Its not a “SON ONLY” kinda way.

    **rolls eyes**

  2. Jen: Please re – read my post. My post says that this proves that the early church was not oneness. Oneness pentecostals claim that the early church was oneness until Constantine infused Roman paganism into Christianity. If you debate that, then I can give you plenty of quotes from Tertullian that specifically deny oneness doctrine. It is just that this psalm is the oldest Christian psalm on record, and predates Tertullian. You can believe your oneness doctrine if you want to, but you cannot claim that it was the position of the early church or of historic Christianity. Quite the contrary, it was rejected as heresy in the second century, was was re – formed as a cult in 1913.

    • Bobby said

      Is that the quote in Against Praxeus where he says most Christians in his day would reject his theology? Which quotes should we buy here?

  3. djenk23 said

    ummm…if the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are “offices” that God occupies, who exactly was Jesus praying to in the garden?…maybe He was praying to Himself…How can Jesus sit on the right hand of Himself?….I guess Jesus was a paranoid schizophrenic with a touch of MPD…

  4. djenk23 – You kid that those in the Oneness heresy feel Christ prayed to Himself, but see the comments in this blog post by a guy named “Bishop612″ The New Oneness Translation (NOT) of Scripture.

    They go through all kinds of cartwheels with scripture to defend that mess. Notice once we responded he got only more ridiculous.

  5. Jesusman said

    Nice try. “Hail, gladdening Light, of his pure glory poured,
    who is IMMORTAL FATHER, heavenly blest;
    Holiest of Holies, JESUS CHRIST our Lord!” (This is saying that the Father is Jesus Christ, a heresy according to trinitarians)

    Two points. 1.)First of all, this hymn sounds pretty Oneness to me, calling the Father “Jesus Christ”. But it’s a moot point because of point #2.) This hymn was being sung as early as 150 AD? Hmmm, that’s kinda funny how it rhymes in English and everything, seeing THE ENGLISH LANGUAGE DID NOT EXIST IN 150 AD!!!!! (Nothing even remotely close to the English language existed at that time) That “deceiver” Curtis Ward just happens to be my Pastor, bud, so before you go shooting out the lip, you need to know who you’re persecuting. Bro. Ward has more integrity in his little finger than a thousand tritheists will ever dream of. He’s done the research, and I don’t mean rummaging through the internet like most trinitarian research is done. Bro. Ward has actually visited and researched in the countries throughout Europe and the Middle East where there was a common theme of some small group of “heretics” who baptized in Jesus’ Name and regarded the Roman Catholic Church as the Great mother Whore (along with her Protestant daughters) that it is and always will be. These groups of true believers suffered the most unconscionable acts of persecution imaginable by both Catholics and Protestants alike(think Michael Servetus), yet the True Church endured down through the centuries to this day. (MATTHEW 16:18)
    “And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.” And the gates of Hell, no matter how hard the tritheists try to perpetuate them, will never prevail against God’s True Church because there will always be warriors like Dr. Curtis D. Ward to stop them. May God bless you in the Name of the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit, which is the Name of JESUS, who alone is the One True and Eternal God both now and Forever, Amen.

  6. Eden Hadassah said

    Wow jesusman,
    Didn’t your Dr. pastor ever consider consulting the Holy Spirit to know the truth of it? Sounds like a lot of milage to try to solidify something that was outside himself, instead of coming to a real knowledge of the one whom they peirced, and humbling himself, and yourself as well to the One True God. But I guess your pastor, who you lift up as an idol is sufficent enough for you to build your faith on. Maybe he is your lord and savior…you sure make it sound that way to me.

  7. Charles D. said

    Eden Hadassah

    Didn’t you have a website? Do you visit it often? Do you work, I mean other than on here? I admire your zeal and willingness to keep it going, you have many things to say and I was just wondering?

    Charles

  8. Eden Hadassah said

    Hey Charles,
    Job encouraged me to get a blog going, and I am still working on what my main focus will be. I have been praying a lot about having a site, and my main concern is committment. I do not want to start a site I will not be able to regularly maintain.
    Balance in my homelife is important to me, and I care for my grandbaby all day…so coming on this site, allows me to still get involved in discussion, and have the freedom to stop when I am busy with the family or the house. As I work out my time constraints during the day (and they change from moment to moment with an unpredictable baby) I am doing my research as well. I don’t know if I explained myself very well, but I hope I answered your question. :)
    I did have a site, and I removed it until I figure out how to incorporate it into a blog. If I decide not to have a blog, my site will go back up.
    Thanks for asking

  9. Jesusman said

    Eden Hadassah,

    Thank you for that attack. I hold my Pastor in high regard as we all should so long as our Pastors follow the truth. I’m sure Timothy held Paul in high regard as well. The meat of my refutation was this… HOW COULD THIS “HYMN” BE SUNG AS WRITTEN ABOVE IN 150 AD WHEN THERE WAS NO ENGLISH LANGUAGE AT THAT TIME? Now go consult all three of your gods(or all three heads of your mutant hydra-god) and see what they come up with.

    • Dr. Clinton Willis said

      Dear Brother “Jesus-man” Eden Hadassah. I would love to talk to you my Deut 6:4 Acts 4:12 Brother. A early Gnostic/Catholic chant or song proves that there are three gods coexsting in heaven? Wow! The song in question even supports Isa. 9:6 John 14:6-9 and 1 Tim. 3:16! No chant song or man-made creed can take the place of the Holy Scriptures! Trinity folks always go out side of the Bible because the Scriptures do not teach their Catholic Dogma. I have proof that the early Christian songs were really One God songs! The false Triad or Trinity teaching did not start at Nicaea but was forced upon humanity by Emperor Constantine and his Bishops in 325 AD. This is one of the weakest arguments I have ever seen. I could write a song about ufo’s that came to the earth in 150 AD! However, that would not prove that ufo’s came to the earth in 150 AD! Neither does this song new or old song prove that there are three gods. I have written a new book that is worth reading on this subject. May God bless and keep all of you. Dr. Willis PS I would love to talk to your Pastor.

  10. Charles D. said

    Jesusman

    You’re a man of my heart. Okay, not for what you have going with Eden because I haven’t read your post uet, but I intend to do so. I’m referring to your stated feelings about your minister, then, you indirectly state EXACTLY what God”s word say about our pastors and our treatment of them.

    I bet some would really freak out if they knew that on THAT day, it is the pastor who have to account for for his flock. There is no amount or quality of verbosity that can or will minimize that fact!

    I too, have a tremendous relationship with my pastor and his wife who is a Rev. in her own right. And before anyone sticking their nose in our dialogue thinking that my churches Rev/(Mrs) is one of those that become ministers by the default of “husband’s position), that would be false. They both are ivy league educated young talented, blessed and annointed ministers of God who were ministers before marriage.

    I’m not sure why I felt it necessary to add that last qualification. In truth, my pastor would probably admonish me on that point alone. And if I told him about some of the things I have seen here; I can just hear him say: Well Borther Charles, there are those who are on their way to hell anyhow…..

    Charles

  11. Eden Hadassah said

    Jesusman,
    You thought that was an attack? ;)
    Your nerves must constantly be on edge then!
    Your admiration for your pastor goes beyond admiration straight up to mountain top worship. Sorry. I guess you can’t see a difference between observation and naked aggression.
    Would you like an example of naked aggression?

    “Now go consult all three of your gods(or all three heads of your mutant hydra-god) and see what they come up with.”

    Now I am sure your sensitivity to the Holy Spirit made you write such things, right? So where does something like this come from? I saw blind adoration in you for a pastor, which you clearly gushed out upon this board, and you did not expect a response? It is one thing to look up to a pastor for guidance, it is quite another to depend upon him for your faith. Our faith comes from the Lord Most High. It is a gift of the One True God. End of story.
    By the way, Jesusman…what is a three headed mutant hydra-god?
    You say it so matter of factly. :)

  12. Jesusman said

    E.H.

    Read Charles’ comment about respecting your Pastor, then answer the question HOW COULD THIS “HYMN” BE SUNG AS WRITTEN ABOVE IN 150 AD WHEN THERE WAS NO ENGLISH LANGUAGE AT THAT TIME?

  13. Jesusman said

    BTW, I’ve known the Lord Jesus for over 17 years. He alone is God and is worthy of worship. I’ve known Bro. Ward for less than three years. I don’t worship him. I believe in giving honor to whom honor is due, and if someone called your Pastor a liar and a deceiver having never met him(or her), I would expect you to defend your Pastor as passionately as I have done. If you wouldn’t, you need to ask the Holy Spirit of Jesus to give you a little more of that faith you seem to be so proud of. Now answer the question HOW COULD THIS “HYMN” BE SUNG AS WRITTEN ABOVE IN 150 AD WHEN THERE WAS NO ENGLISH LANGUAGE AT THAT TIME?

  14. Eden Hadassah said

    I don’t pay attention to hymns, so what are you getting all bent out of shape for?
    What are you going on for about some hymn? Is this what is important to you? A hymn, and showing no proof that your pastor is NOT a liar?
    I follow the Lord Yeshua…he is my pastor, my High Priest, my shepherd, my God, my friend and the lover of my soul. And since he is all those things to me, I do not have to defend Him, because He is not, nor will He ever be a liar or a deciever.
    Defend your pastor if you must, but I will follow the Lamb of God.

  15. Dear Eden:
    You don’t know how much that touched me seeing you write what you’ve written above. I feel the same way. He is my all! MY All!
    There is none like him, nor will there ever be. I lay my head upon His chest, He is my comforter! God bless you!

  16. Eden Hadassah said

    Minister :)
    God bless you too!

  17. Jesusman said

    Then what is the purpose of human Pastors as part of the five-fold ministry? The original article used some hymn as proof that my Pastor was a liar and a deceiver, and I took exception to that and thoroughly refuted the so called “historical proof”. I was defending someone I care about. It’s called loving the Brethren. You should try it some time. Johh 13:35 “By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another” We are commanded to love Jesus(Yeshua, Jesu, Isa, or whatever language you prefer[I'm quite proficient in Hebrew but choose not to be pretentious about it]) but we are also commanded to love the Brethren. You can’t have one without the other. If you don’t love your brother, you can’t love Jesus. Now I’ll be a little pretentious… “Shema Yisrael, Adonai Eloheinu, Adonai Echad”

    • Med Darnell said

      The Hebrew for Jesus is Jesu, pronounced Geez-oo; as the ‘oo’ in ‘boot’. Yeshua is a hybrid Caballist Fraud. Google ‘IEUE’ and read my forum on Jesus Name. It will open your eyes up to the truth.

  18. Eden Hadassah said

    Hear O Israel, The Lord Our God, The Lord is One.

    That is not pretentious, that is the truth!

  19. Eden Hadassah said

    Jesusman,
    Here is a link about five fold ministry…

    http://www.spiritwatch.org/fivespabu.htm

  20. Charles D. said

    First and foremost, this post was presented in such a fashion as to create argumentative response. It is one-sided and confusing at best. One could get more exercise reading it than you could ever get at a sports club. After all of the “jumping to conclusions and leaps in logic, taking short cuts and for what? Over a ?hymn? PLEASE!!!

    Look further and carefully at “Now this date is key, because CHURCH tradition GENERALLY HOLDS that….” What church are we talking about here? Now thats key! Also, “GENERALLY HOLD” is inadmissible in any court of law. So! Is it supposed to be taken as the Gospel on the writer’s reputation or intentions?
    Then, I’d like to know who among us can speak with any credibility about what John taught, other than what’s written in the Bible?

    Now before going further with all of the weasel words and loopy ideas holding this thing together, the most obtuse and damaging thesus put forth is the contention that “only God knows the heart and He will restore these good hearted Christians and forgive them on judgment day).” Folks don’t take that to heart or, as truth. If you don’t have it together before judgement day, please don’t expect it then. There just isn’t going to be forgiveness on that day!
    That is one reason it is so awfully important that your time be well spent doing those things that you DO know about and stop all of the non-spiritual non-sense.

    Attacking for the sake of either attacking or oneupsmanship are signs of insanity or a reprobate mind.

    In Christ,

    Charles

  21. Jesusman said

    “Adonai ro’i lo echsar
    Binot deishei yarbitzeini
    Al-mei menuchot yena-haleini”

  22. Eden Hadassah said

    Jesusman,
    Did you check out the link?

    When you quote things in hebrew, or in any language, you should probably translate it into english. I did the first time, but now, maybe the foothold of pretention has grabbed hold of you!
    What do you gain by such things? Bring glory to the Lord, not yourself for what you know…(by the way, I am not the most proficient speller, but I think you spelled some of the words wrong in the above statement.)

  23. Jesusman said

    I checked out the link. I don’t have time to trudge through such a long article. How about checking out the Bible? Nowhere does the Bible say that offices of the Ministry would be done away with. God puts Pastors in place to shepherd His people until His return. They’re not God and not worthy of worship, but they are worthy of respect and love. Wouldn’t you defend someone you care about against a stranger’s accusations that he/she were a liar and a deceiver? Such Love is the true fruit of the Spirit.
    Transliterated spelling is not an exact science. I’m just spelling it in English the way it sounds in my head. The only right way to spell it would be with Hebrew letters, none of which I can seem to find on my keyboard. The above is the first two verses of Psalm 23. What I was getting at was the fact that so many people are using “Yeshua” now instead of Jesus. If you have to have Jesus’ Hebrew(and Aramaic) name, then why speak everything else in English? I speak English, and when I say the Saviour’s Name I say “Jesus”, the English rendering. The people who insist on “Yeshua” never seem to apply the same standard to other Biblical names like David(pronounced Dah-veed), Isaiah(Yishayahu), Jacob(Ya’akov), or Paul(Shaul)

  24. Eden Hadassah said

    That’s true about the word Yeshua, but it is what I am comfortable with. As far as loving your minister’s, brothers and sisters, yes, of course we love them as our selves, but I have to admit, you took your love to a feverish pitch. That is reserved for God alone.
    Please show me the scriptures that name, the “office”, of anything. This word office is added to doctrine. Yes there are pastors, prophets, apostles, teachers and evangelists, but we do not need to lay the foundation of the apostles again. There is a great spiritual abuse that has taken place in the five fold ministry outlet, and those who have been indoctrinated do not realize they are actually worshiping the words of the self-appointed prophets and apostles. There is a lack of servant leadership, and they currently try to sit on the throne of God, userping his authority. This is blasphemy at it’s height. If you are not willing to read about spiritual abuse, so that you can understand it’s forms, then you willingly decieve yourself and those around you.
    Can you walk away from your church, with out fear of retaliation from them or being subjected to some sort of verbal abuse? Do they, “the prophet’s” tell you what you should be doing, and what you shouldn’t be doing with your life? Do they request that you consult them before you make purchases or go somewhere? These are just the begining of it. I have seen these abuses first hand, and I wouldn’t allow myself to be enslaved to that kind of bondage. There are so many things going on in these types of churches, and the pastors…they don’t care for the sheep, they devour them. They break the “spiritual spine” of the church, and when they are paralysed, they start naughing on the flesh.
    Pride has puffed them up to believe they are the “true church”, when in fact they make up their own prophecies and tell others to follow them instead of the word of God.
    I will follow the Lamb, and where ever he leads me, I will follow him.

  25. Jesusman said

    “Do they, “the prophet’s” tell you what you should be doing, and what you shouldn’t be doing with your life? Do they request that you consult them before you make purchases or go somewhere?” Absolutely not! I don’t know what kind of cult mentality you’ve been subjected to, but I can assure you that’s not the kind of Church I go to. Not all Pastors are psychopathic control freaks. Love for the Brethren should go to such a feverish pitch that you would “lay down your life for your friends”. Jesus loved His disciples with a feverish pitch, yet no one would accuse Him of worshipping them. If you wouldn’t die for your brother, you wouldn’t die for Jesus, which would make you a fake Christian. I don’t go for the “Apostles” and “Prophets” types either. If there are any, God will show me so without their own self recognition. Built upon the foundation of the Apostles and Prophets, however, is the ministry of Evangelists, Pastors, and Teachers. Bro. Ward, while giving advice to young Ministers and Bible College students, says “There are way too many preachers, and hardly any Ministers! A Minister is a servant. The people aren’t there to serve you with accolades and Amens, they are there to be served by a Minister(servant)with God’s Love, His Understanding, and His Word.”

  26. Eden Hadassah said

    Ah yes, Yeshua did lay down his life for us, but was it for us first? Or was it so that His Father could be reconciled to us?
    He did the will of his Father First. We are the creation, and he loved us enough to lay down his life for us. Was his feverish pitch on the cross called out to man or God? Were his last words directed towards us or his Father? Or maybe you think that he was talking to himself? His passion was for his Heavenly Father first. It is what he talked about when he came to Earth. No split personality disorder, he said clearly that he and his father were one. Imagine coming to Earth and proclaiming the love and mercy of the Father, and his creation turning right back around and saying Jesus is the father. There is a problem with that thought. There are not three gods. They are one.
    As far as cults go, I was never involved in cults like this, but I have visited them. And it isn’t as in your face as I put it in an earlier post. It is subtle. Slick. And with scripture to try to back up their manipulations.

  27. Jesusman said

    Jesus was not His own Father. That is a misrepresentation of Oneness belief that Trinitarians try to throw at the wall and see if it sticks. The Father was not the Son. The Father was IN the Son(John 14:10
    Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of Myself: but the Father that dwelleth in Me, He doeth the works) Jesus prayed to God the Father, not to Himself, although the Father dwelled in Jesus. We pray to God, yet in a sense, He dwells within us through the Holy Spirit. That doesn’t mean we pray to ourselves.(And no, we’re not God like Jesus was God, but that’s another discussion entirely) If God were three seperate persons who are One in unity and purpose, why was the man God created in His Own Image only one man instead of three united men? One threefold being of body, soul, and spirit just like the God in Whose Image he was Created; One threefold being of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Did you know this was what Oneness theology really stands for? I doubt it if you learned our beliefs from those who would try to smear us.

    The bottom line question in Trinity vs. Oneness is this…IS JESUS IN THE GODHEAD OR IS THE GODHEAD IN JESUS? I’ll take the Apostle Paul’s word for it in Colossians 2:9 Go ahead and have the last word, I’m going to let the Scriptures speak for themselves. May the Lord Bless and Keep you.

  28. Eden Hadassah said

    Oh my, Jesusman…

    talk about manipulation! How many scriptures you leave out. Do you circulate just around the verses you choose? And then extrapolate upon them? That is as pharasaical as the chief priests and rabbis themselves! Careful oneness man, your not as wise as your teachers have instructed you to be.
    You would have more luck converting a Jehovah Witness or a Mormon for that matter, then to come on this board and sit and spin! Why don’t you go talk to them, they will believe anybody who can try to package God into a nice little package. Muslims will listen to! I can not follow where you go, I follow the Lamb.

  29. Eden Hadassah said

    You can think that the scriptures will speak for themselves, but that is only possible when you QUOTE THE SCRIPTURE IN CONTEXT! Why didn’t you finish the next few verses? Where was Jesus going? Humm. Funny how you omit what doesn’t suit you or your doctrine. Next time you want to spin out scriptures, use them in context, and don’t just throw one or two out there. I don’t have time for that.

  30. Jesusman said

    Do you agree with this statement “God the Father revealing Himself to mankind through the Son and the Spirit is at the very heart of Christian belief.”?

  31. Jesusman said

    Or are you expecting If so I feel sorry for you.

  32. Jesusman said

    Sorry, not the best with links. The first is the mutant three headed monster and the second is a nice family portrait of Senior, Junior, and Birdie.

  33. Eden Hadassah said

    I don’t believe in trying to put God on display with images. Why would you continue to profane God? You mock what you can not possibly understand or explain. Unfortunately, that is the meaning of faithless. And with out faith, it is impossible to please God.
    Blasphamy never seems to escape your very being does it?
    Take care, sweet jesusman…
    No picture, no image and certainly nothing that any man can make on paper can compare to the majesty of God. You degrade yourself, and have totally showed the depth of the puddle in which you dwell. You have not learned anything of God, so these seventeen years have been a waste of your time.

  34. Jesusman said

    “No picture, no image and certainly nothing that any man can make on paper can compare to the majesty of God.”

    Exactly. Especially not a triangle or three connected circles or a convoluted explanation involving “persons”, “essences”, “hypostasis”, and all the other unbiblical trash that has been thrown at God in man’s futile attempt to explain Him. I believe that God is One. I believe that Jesus is God. Isn’t that the very heart of Christian belief? The Holman Illustrated Bible Dictionary, in defense of the Trinity doctrine says “That God the Father imparts Himself to mankind through Son and Spirit without ceasing to be Himself is at the very heart of the Christian Faith.” A better explanation of Oneness theology I could not have made myself. If the above statement is the correct explanation of the Trinity Doctrine, then consider me a Trinitarian. Maybe it is that some have a faulty understanding of the Trinity?

  35. Jesusman said

    “Ah yes, Yeshua did lay down his life for us, but was it for us first? Or was it so that His Father could be reconciled to us?
    He did the will of his Father First.” 2 Corinthians 15:9 To wit, that GOD WAS IN CHRIST, RECONCILING THE WORLD UNTO HIMSELF, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

    According to Paul, the Father did His own reconciling THROUGH Jesus.

  36. Eden Hadassah said

    I don’t have a need to circle the scriptures like you, nor go into anything about the Lord to try to “explain” his position. Faith is central to any belief, and you can try to reiterate your views and doctrine, but you just keep it going around and around like a dog chasing his own tail. It is quite an amusing trait to watch my dog do it, (when I had a dog) but in people it is just down right annoying. Understand something, I am not in the slightest bit interested to do any sort of dialogue with you concerning the nature of God, so if you would like to discuss something else, I would consider it. It is not my particular passion to go in circles with anyone, but I am sure there are others that may like doing the doctrinal whirly gig. If someone else would like to engage you in conversation concerning this topic, great…
    You will get no self-satisfaction engaging me in conversation about this, but I guess you couldn’t take a hint, or even many.

  37. Dr. Curtis Ward DD said

    Well, Well…It has come to my attention that my name was being lambasted on this site and although I could better utilize my time elsewhere I chose to respond in defense of my brethren who adhere to this theology and have supported my teaching these last three decades.
    First of all it is quite easy to lampoon an unseen individual who has no idea you are writing about them and therefore cannot defend his position. Secondly your history is so full of error that I lack the space here for a proper rebuttal. Even if the so called “ancient hymn” were actually dated 150 AD it seems to me to be saturated with Oneness theology. The first stanza calls the gladdening light the “immortal Father, heavenly blest;Holiest of Holies, Jesus Christ our Lord!” Sounds pretty Oneness to me! The second stanza refers to the three manifestation of one God. The third stanza calls Christ the “Giver of life ALONE.” Hmmm…didn’t GOD breath life into man? Coincidently should you wish to debate my stance on Oneness church perpetuity I am sure something could be arranged.

  38. Dr. Curtis Ward said

    From the Catholic Encyclopedia :
    “In Scripture there is as yet no single term by which the Three Divine Persons are denoted together. The word trias (of which the Latin trinitas is a translation) is first found in Theophilus of Antioch about A.D. 180. He speaks of “the Trinity of God [the Father], His Word and His Wisdom (”Ad. Autol.”, II, 15).”

    Hmmm…there wasn’t even a doctrine of the Trinity in 150 AD. Even if you wish to believe the above quote is referencing a “trinity” please note the Holy Ghost had not yet joined the fraternal order.

  39. Dr. Curtis Ward said

    The New Catholic Encyclopedia notes:

    “The formulation ‘one god in three Persons’ was not solidly established, certainly not fully assimilated into Christian life and its profession of faith, prior to the end of the 4th century. . . Among the Apostolic Fathers, there had been nothing even remotely approaching such a mentality or perspective.”

    So much the 150 D theorem.

  40. Dr. Curtis Ward DD said

    “For unto us a CHILD is born, unto us a SON is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, THE MIGHTY GOD, The EVERLASTING FATHER, The PRINCE of Peace.
    Of the increase of [his] government and peace [there shall be] no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever.” Isa. 9:6

    I like this much better then the “Hail,Gladdening Light” song.
    Probably alot older also.

  41. Hi Dr. Ward.

    I have been following along with this for sometime viewing both sides. I have studied the bible for over 20 years and have somewhat of an education having studied (and still studying) Theology.
    I have seen verse after verse that does indeed infer Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
    If I may. In the Old Testament there is no distinct reference to God existing in three persons. Hints of it, however are found in the name of God as Elohim. A plural noun, and though no clear statement of a trinity is contained, a plurality of persons may well be implied.
    Gensis 1:26 “Let us make man in our image after our likeness,: even more strongly suggests a plurality within God.

    See Gensis 3:22

    Behold, the man has become like one of us: and Genesis 11:7 Come let us go down. No trinity is proven, but plurality is definitely suggested.
    Other OT passages suggest two divine personages, Example, Psalm 110:1 The Lord says to my Lord: Sit at my right hand, till I make your enemies your footstool.
    I think this next is the most interesting to them all.
    Isaiah 48:16 And now the Lord God has sent me and His Holy Spirit.
    The Spirit of the Lord is upon me because the Lord has anointed me to bring good tidings to the afflicted.

    Although these passages do not specifically depict one God in three persons, they point in that direction.
    In the New Testament we see Jesus baptized in the Jordan River, thereafter he saw the heavens opened and the Spirit descending upon Him like a dove; and a voice came from heaven, Thou art my beloved Son. Mark 1:10-11.
    Three are involved. One speaks from heaven, One comes upon like a dove, and One who the dove comes upon,and hears the voice.
    Spirit and Son are both mentioned and the voice in unimistakenly the Father. It would be unsound to dismiss what the scripture reads, as if the writer didn’t mean to write what saw.
    The personhood of the Holy Spirit is clearly affirmed in the fourth gospel where Jesus says, The Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things.
    He also adds (John 14:26) that the Spirit of truth, who proceeds from the Father, he will bear witness to me.
    I could go on and on. But this is why I believe. I don’t know what other see, but the bible does imply. If Jesus is the only begotten, it is implied someone Fathered Him. He didn’t do it himself. This is the same thing God has set in His creation, as we are patterned after things above. God Bless.

  42. Jesusman said

    “If Jesus is the only begotten, it is implied someone Fathered Him. He didn’t do it himself.”

    Oneness theologians have NEVER said that Jesus Fathered Himself. It is the Trinitarians who have a problem here. If Jesus is the “Eternal Son”, how was He the only begotten Son? To be begotten there has to be a time before the begotten existed. Another quandry you have is that the Bible clearly states that Mary was with child of the Holy Ghost. So who was the Father? If the Father and the Holy Ghost are two seperate persons, we’ll need to get Maury Povich to do a paternity test. Now that’s a show that’s sure to get some ratings! “When it comes to the man Christ Jesus, Holy Ghost, you ARE THE FATHER!!!”(and He is!) ;oD

  43. Eden Hadassah said

    Round and round Dr. double D…

    Why on earth would you even use a catholic commentary to try to prove something…that is simply amazing to me.

    Let me ask you something…
    What does “And the government shall rest upon his shoulders” mean to you? I am sure that you can “interpret” it, or make assumptions, but do you know what it means?

  44. Eternal in heaven before the world began; begotten of the flesh.

    Luke 1:35 The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall over shadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

    Again all three were present. The Holy Spirit, The Most High Father, and holy seed is the Christ. The angel even called the fleshy seed of Christ thing. Isn’t God good.

  45. Charles said

    Jesusman:

    When I read your question: “If Jesus is the only begotten, it is implied someone Fathered Him. He didn’t do it himself.”

    I thought about the sublty of Satan and I will tell you why: Satan to Eve:”Did God really say…….?” I;m sure you get my meaning. Regarding “implications” and the trouble they often gets us in, especially, regarding spiritual matters, is that you have to lean less on your own understanding and more on God’s.

    EXAMPLE: Your quiry commence with the big “IF” implying that you don’t believe what is written in the Bible. However, if you do believe what is written; why would you use the good time that God’s has so generously given you upon this earth or even be having this dialogue. Your question suggests further, that you have yet to read, say…, the Gospel of Matthew Chapter’s 1 and 2. And if you have read them, then, you don’t believe what you’ve read. If that is the case, how in the world can you expect someone here to answer your questions, or, change your preconceived belief? The only truth they will be able to point out to you are the Gospels, especially, Matthew, but there are other scripture references as well. My point is, if you don’t get Matthew, then, probably the others references might prove a challenge too.

    In Christ,

    Charles

  46. johnkaniecki said

    Greetings All,

    The book of Hebrews teaches that what Jesus did on Earth in the shadows He did in the reality of His Father.

    The analogy of Father, Son and Holy Spirit may break down when we look at it in human terms. I have no problem the Father begetting the Son through the Holy Spirit. Read John chapter 1. In the begining was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God. Clearly Jesus, the Word, existed before this Earth. So the begetting by the instrument of the Holy Spirit could refer to the human aspects.

    Let’s not let technacalities get in the way of mysteries. I can’t explain every last detail and from reading the log entries I am sure you can’t neither. Sometimes we just have to accept what we read in the Bible and not dissect it to discover every nuance.

    The Bible clearly teaches three aspects of Love or God as the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Do research on the Godhead among other things and the point will be proven. We get into trouble when we try to figure out every last detail. Many times these details are void of spiritual edification. It was once asked “How many angels could sit atop the head of a pin?” Quite frankly, to get a little vulgar for emphasis, “I don’t give a crap!!!”

    Love,

    John

  47. Dr. Curtis Ward DD said

    The question proposed inquires if I believe in three persons in the trinity. (1) What is meant by “three persons in the trinity”? Verbiage as well as paintings and pictures of the trinity reveal three “persons” (as in “people”) sitting side by side. The Father is an old gray haired man with a long beard & a staff. The son is the usual depiction of a 30 year old male with dark brown hair. The Holy Ghost is depicted as a faceless person (appears as if a fishbowl is covering his head) or sometimes by a small bird. It is readily apparent that when the typical Trinitarian refers to the “Trinity” this is what is visualized. This is the Roman Catholic version of the Trinity which was established in the fourth century and consequently handed down to her protestant daughters which estranged themselves from her during the Reformation.This is why I quoted the Catholic Encyclopedia above…the Roman Catholics are the source of your Trinitarian doctrinal stance. (2)Now we must question..IS THE FATHER A “PERSON” (as in “PEOPLE”) as suggested in language and art??? Let us investigate this question more precisely. The LORD God said “Do not I FILL all Heaven and all earth?” (Jer. 23:23,24) Paul related that “in Him we live, move, and have our being.” (Acts 17:28) So the Father is Omnipresent. Can we see him? GOD said “Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live.”(Ex.33:20)They saw ‘no manner of similitude” (Deut. 4:15) John said “NO man HATH SEEN GOD AT ANY TIME…” (Jn. 1:18, l Jn. 4:12).Jesus said of the Father himself…”Ye neither HEARD his voice at ANY time, nor SEEN his shape” (Jn. 5:37). Paul said God is “INVISIBLE” (Col.1:15). Hmmm…here is a being that is omnipresent, is invisible, and has never been seen at any time. Does this sound like any “person” YOU have ever…uh…seen? Is this a “person” as in “people”. Many other Scriptures reveal the Holy Ghost is not a visable being either. (3)Then HOW can the language and art refer to three “people sitting side by side? HOW can we SEE God? (4)Here is the answer. Paul said Christ is “the IMAGE of the invisible God” (Col.1:15). Christ said “he that hath seen me HATH SEEN THE FATHER”(Jn.14:7). John said “no man hath seen God at any time…the only begotten son..HE HATH DECLARED HIM” (Jn.1:18). Colossians 2:9 instructs us to follow Christ “for in HIM dwelleth ALL the FULLNESS of the Godhead BODILY.” WOW!!! How POWERFULLY expressed!You cannot see the omnipresent, invisible Father EXCEPT THROUGH CHRIST JESUS! (5)Who then are the OTHER TWO MEN depicted in the artwork of our Churches and literature? (6)May I propose that one day when and if you see God all that you will see is Christ? He is the only “person” of the Godhead you will ever see.The answer is so simple and so scriptural. (The Catholic Church split over the misunderstanding of the word “person.” The East felt that calling God a “person” was Tri-theistic or more then one God. The West understood the translation of “person” as “mask” and some felt it smacked of Modalism. Needless to say it was quite confusing.) I have been accused of being Jesus Only which I am not. Many Trinitarians and Oneness people do not know the difference between Jesus Only and Oneness. Some oneness adherents are Jesus Only, some are not. Some believe in simultaneous manifestations of God, some do not. Very few understand true Oneness doctrine which comes by revelation. I am neither Jesus Only nor Tritheistic Trinitarian. I do believe in three but these three manifestations are one ( l Jn.5:7, l Tim.3:16) and I believe the Petrine baptismal formula, the only formula ever used in scriptures. There is but ONE God. (Although there may be some evangelical antagonism toward certain theologies of Karl Barth it would be beneficial for anyone to investigate his position on the Godhead) In closing John said “all things were made by him and without him was not anything made that was made” (Jn.1:3). The LORD God said “I am the LORD that maketh ALL things;that stretcheth forth the heavens ALONE; that spreadeth abroad the earth BY MYSELF” (Isa. 44:24, Mal.2:10). Hear oh hear O’ Israel the Lord our God is ONE Lord.

  48. johnkaniecki said

    Greeting Dr. Ward,

    May God bless you!!!

    When Jesus was baptized the Holy Spirit descended and the Father spoke “This is my son with whom I am well pleased.”

    You give many words but you say very little. This is beyond intellectualism but a practical thing.

    The Father is beyond our comprehension.
    Jesus is like the Father but only a ray of light compared to the sun. Jesus became human and can explain to the Father something the Father could never experience.
    The Holy Spirit indwells believers and guides them.

    The Father is not omnipresent. The Father was not in the fish head my wife threw in the garbage when she cooked my dinner.

    You Dr. Curtis have said a lot on something that is a mystery. Can you define the rainbow? Can you define the sunset? I can tell you that they are real and they are very beautiful. I could probably calculate the lengths of the different wave lengths in the light that produces the colors, but would that make the phenomana more or less beautiful?

    Love,

    John

  49. Charles D. said

    Eden;

    Okay, listen ya lil fruitcake, because you ignored me yesstidy, I’ve lost and don’t know how to retreive the post or topic we were on. Which post were we on last and how can I find it?

    I worked a straight undershift and could not find our conversation when I got hiome. I do have at least three questions that I want to see how you view the topics, so, help me out here. AND! don’t you ever again promise to get back to me and fail to do it. Missy

    Charles

  50. Dr. Curtis Ward DD said

    John, you claim I said very little.

    You spoke of fish heads, rainbows, and “mysteries”.

    I spoke only scripture.

    In retrospect..WHO said very little?

  51. Dr. Curtis Ward DD said

    I have little time to prattle in this forum. I may or may not visit in the future.

    Should any qualified persons desire to debate me on Church perpetuity or the Godhead we can work toward arranging such debate.

    I leave this forum in more able hands then mine.

  52. Journeyin2Light said

    johnkaniecki said God is not omnipresent.

    Your Bible says
    “Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence? If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.” Deut. 139;7&8

    Proverbs 15;3 ‘The eyes of the LORD are in every place, beholding the evil and the good”

    Acts 17;27&28 says “he be not far from every one of us; For in him we live, and move, and have our being”

    God says in Jerimiah 23;24 “Do not I fill all heaven and earth? saith the LORD”

    This is omnipresense.

  53. Charles D. said

    Dr. Curtis Ward DD:
    Sort of picked up on your challenge, however, I am not sure of what you will consider a “qualified” person under the circumstance. In form me of your “ground rules” and “limits,” then, lets go anytime on or after Saturday. I’m doing killer hours right now, or, I would be willing to be enlightened by you here and now.

    Look forward

    Chas D

  54. Fran said

    Dr. Curtis Ward DD,

    I think you should stay and continue to comment. I haven’t read any reply to you that I would consider a debate. I’ve read some attacks, but nothing debateable, at least not to what you’ve explain in your last few comments.

    Who’s to say that you weren’t led to the site to give correction? The word tells us to share our revealations. Not everyone share the same views as to the comments that you have recieved.

    It’s a few things that the Lord has been dealing with me on, and I’d like for you to continue commenting.

    Fran

  55. Job said

    Dr. Curtis Ward DD:

    You are speaking of the Roman Catholic Church. Fine. But please realize that the first reference to the Godhead as “Trinity” was made by Theophilus of Antioch, a fellow who was born 115 A.D., a mere 20 years after the book of Revelation was completed and according to a great many estimations actually before the Book of Hebrews was written. The word was used again by Tertullian about 100 years later. Now Theophilus lived almost 200 years before Constantine and Nicea (which was between Arianism, a Jehovah’s Witness theology that did not regard Jesus Christ as deity, and Trinity, not oneness and Trinity … it is unclear whether modalism was even one of the “side issues” like Novatianism and donatism at Nicea, and it is safe to say that since oneness had been branded heresy at least 70 years before in the time of Noetus, if there was anyone at Nicea that did not accept Trinity it was because they believed in Arianism, donatism – which denied that Christ came in the flesh – or some other heresy) and Tertullian lived almost 100 years before. So claiming that Trinity was invented by Catholicism is nonsense, both Tertullian and particularly Theophilus lived and taught before we even had a canonical Bible. That is also why claiming that Trinity is the product of paganism puts you on dangerous ground … if that was the case with Theophilus and the book Didache (which contained references to baptism in the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit), who came about the first half of the second century barely 100 years after Jesus Christ resurrected and a few decades after John the beloved disciple died (and several of John’s disciples and others who received the teachings of the apostles first hand were still alive, including Polycarp) then we can only conclude that Christianity became corrupted by paganism from the very beginning and is an invalid religion. In other words, either the Jews, Mormons, Muslims, or Jehovah’s Witnesses are right.

    So, I trust first my own reading of scripture such as where the Son of Man was presented to the Ancient of Days in Daniel and when the Father spoke from Heaven and the Holy Spirit descended like a dove upon the Son at baptism backed up by doctrines and writings of people who came about less than 100 years after the birth of Jesus Christ (because if the church had fallen into apostasy by that early date we cannot even trust the Bible, because no references to manuscripts of Bible books from a time earlier than that have ever been found or ever will be!), and you trust a splinter group that formed less than 90 years ago.

    By the way, your habit of going back through history and claiming that every heretic was oneness kicked out by the Catholic church for telling the truth? Well the guy who came up with your doctrine was branded a heretic 100 years before Constantine. Further, Tertullian, who wrote “Against Praexis” to contend against your oneness doctrine, was considered a heretic himself. As you can tell that I regard Tertullian highly, it is only because, but please realize that Tertullian ultimately left the Montanists. If he was able to leave his false movement in the 200s (and at a very old age at that), then you are capable of doing so now.

  56. Jesusman said

    Charles, that question wasn’t mine. If you’ll notice the quotation marks, I was repeating a rhetorical question from Minister Patrick Williams so I could refute it.

    Job, How could your little hymn be sung in 150 A.D. as you have it written above when there was no English language or anything similar to English at the time? If it was written the same but in a different language, there is no way it would rhyme in English. This is your ” best historical proof that your claims are false”? Well there would be no sense in you trying to debate Dr. Ward on history since I just shredded your BEST proof quite easily, and I’m just a one year Bible College student.

  57. Charles D. said

    Hey Jesusman:

    Now you’re just gonna have to forgive this old man in the “aged” state that I find myself. Not to big to apologize when I’m wrong and in this instance, I was, so I do. I notice the reference made by Mr. Williams at comment 40,41 or there about and had not read his post. I am often caught with my foot in my mouth and never feel ashamed because my motives are pure.

    Your thing and mine have (really not too much to do with the post, actually) or your pastor’s beliefs or teachings. Ours has to do with “our respective relationships with our respecive pastors, and I admire the relationship you have with your pastor. I certainly love my pastor and I am not in the minority and share feeling with the mostbase of members within the confines of my church building.

    However, my feeling does not approach “hero worship” and I understand that yours does not involve any type of hero worship either. My pastor would be the first to admonish me if he thought or, otherwise detected any such improper focus.

    What? Accept an admonition from ANYONE at my age??? Well, yeah!!!

  58. Job said

    Jesusman:

    The Bible was not written in English. So by your own standard, you should not call yourself “Jesusman” but rather “Yeshuaman” or “Y’shuaman” or “Yehoshuaman” as “Jesus” is a 1629 English transliteration of a bad Greek translation of a Name that was in Hebrew. (For how “Iesous” came to be “Jesus” see http://www.pfrs.org/jewish/hr09.html.) Of course, you are a first year Bible college student, so you knew that the Hebrew name for Jesus Christ (the Jesus part, not the Christ part, which is either Mashiach or Moshiach) is the same as the Hebrew name that was translated “Joshua” in the Book of Zechariah. I am also sure that you know that the “Joshua” in Zechariah is slightly different in spelling than the “Joshua” that led Israel up against Jericho.

    Incidentally first year Bible student, you are also aware that when Joshua after the one that the book was named met the man on the plain of Jericho, that man was not an angel, but a Christophany, an appearance of the pre – incarnate Jesus Christ. It was, then Joshua meeting THE REAL Joshua. (Joshua means “God saves” or something similar by the way.) How do we know this? Well Joshua 5:13-15 said that Joshua worshiped Him. Since only God can receive worship, we know that it was not an angel. How do we know that it was not God the Father? For He called Himself “The Lord of Hosts”, or commander of the army of the Lord.” The name “Lord” was actually Adonai, which is always used for God the Father, never God the Son, for that is the same Name that Jesus Christ used to call God the Father in the New Testament. So even at that point, Jesus Christ was making a plain distinction between Himself and God the Father. Actually, the earliest distinction was Genesis 1:2, when the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. Or Genesis 1:27, when God refers to Himself as “us and our” … let US make man in OUR image.

    But back to history. 150 AD is significant because it was long before anything resembling Roman Catholicism came about. It was right after the schism between the Jews and the Gentile Christians in the church. And it was right when people who had personally received the teachings from the apostles were still alive. That time, early to mid first century, is called “the time of the apostolic fathers.” It is not called the apostolic age, because the apostles were dead, but the apostolic fathers, because people who received the teachings directly from the apostles were still alive. (Polycarp, a disciple of John, died in 155 AD, 5 years after the hymn’s dating.) And it was during that time that A) the Didache, otherwise known as the Teachings of the Twelve Apostles, referred to baptism being in the Name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit and B) Theophilus the leader of the church at Antioch made the first mention of the term “Trinity” to describe the godhead according to history. By comparison, the first recorded oneness heretic was Noetus, who came along 75 years after Theophilus!

    So first year college student, rather than shred my proof, you merely exposed the vacuity of your own position. And if you are going to live up to your own standard, you had better be “Yeshuaman” when you return.

  59. Charles D. said

    I have no “A” game to bring on Saturday. Then, I might not need one. Charles

  60. Dr. Ward said

    Job’s words are between the double asterisks. My reply immediately follows.

    **”the first reference to the Godhead as “Trinity” was made by Theophilus of Antioch, a fellow who was born 115 A.D… The word was used again by Tertullian about 100 years later.”**

    The word “Trias” (NOT “Trinity”) was used by Theophilus and it was in no sense a description of the modern doctrine of the Trinity. Theophilus’ Trias was God, His Word, and His Wisdom. Where was the Holy Ghost in this Trias?
    Tertullian introduced the Trinitas in his book Theophilius to Autolycus – 115-181 – Book 2, chapter 15 and also probably the foreshadowing of the formula “three Persons, one Substance” as the Latin “Tres Personae, Una Substantia” (”itself from the Koine Greek “Treis Hypostases, Homoousios.”) However please take close note that the word “Person” or “Persona” properly translated meant “Mask” , so that when they referred to the persons of God they were referring to the Masks of God. A great difference.

    **”it was because they believed in Arianism, donatism – which denied that Christ came in the flesh”**

    Donatism did NOT deny Christ came in the flesh. DOCETISM was the teaching which espoused such a view. Neither did Arianism teach such a doctrine. Once again you seem to have confused your historical facts.

    **”the book Didache (which contained references to baptism in the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit), who came about the first half of the second century barely 100 years after Jesus Christ resurrected”**

    The “book” you refer to has some serious interpolations the most glaring being the abovementioned Tri-unity baptismal formula. It is believed to have been added by later Catholic scribes.
    The “Key of Truth” translated by Fred Coneybeare reveals that portions of that book concerning the water baptismal formula of the ancient Paulicians was erased and scratched out and most likely done by the Catholic scribes who held the manuscript in their custody for ages. Roman Catholics are believed to have been the culprits that interpolated the only reference to “three” in the entire Bible..l John 5:7,8 which is omitted by the more trustworthy versions today (including the NIV). So interpolations are not unusual.

    **”then we can only conclude that Christianity became corrupted by paganism from the very beginning and is an invalid religion. In other words, either the Jews, Mormons, Muslims, or Jehovah’s Witnesses are right. ” **

    No…the Word of God is right! ” For there are certain men who have crept in…turning the grace of God into lasciviousness…” Jude1:4. Christianity was plagued with Docetism, Gnosticism, Mithraism, etc., from the beginning. They were plagued by the doctrine of Balaam and the Nicolaitines (Rev. 2:14,15) and the Lord said “I have somewhat against thee , because thou hast left thy first love. Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen and repent..(Rev. 2: 4,5)

    **”So, I trust first my own reading of scripture such as where the Son of Man was presented to the Ancient of Days in Daniel and when the Father spoke from Heaven and the Holy Spirit descended like a dove upon the Son at baptism backed up by doctrines and writings of people who came about less than 100 years after the birth of Jesus Christ (because if the church had fallen into apostasy by that early date we cannot even trust the Bible, because no references to manuscripts of Bible books from a time earlier than that have ever been found or ever will be!),”**

    As mentioned above the Bible may have several interpolations such as l John 5: 7,8 and Matthew 28:19 (every early reference to Matthew 28:19, including Eusebius, reads “baptizing in the Name” and ends there. Eusebius uses this scripture 16 times in his “History of the Church ” and never includes the titles Father, Son, and Holy Ghost thus adding weight to the theorem that Matthew 28:19 was a later interpolation) however the Word is “spirit and life” and ” the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.”
    Concerning Daniel’s Ancient of days…since the Son of Man had not yet been born as Son of Man then this must be an allegorical or symbolic reference just as the lamb with seven horns and seven eyes in the book of Revelations (no one believes Christ really looks this bizarre). Concerning Christ’s baptism why do you even mention it when I plainly stated I believe in three distinct manifestations of God? This was evidence to the Jewish John the Baptist who had to have two or three witnesses for anything to be established as factual. John needed a sign to know who was the Christ among the multitudes coming to be baptized. “And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.And I saw, and bare record that this is the Son of God” (Jn. 1:33,34)

    **”and you trust a splinter group that formed less than 90 years ago.”**

    Actually it was 101 years ago that the group you mentioned experienced revival. Charles Parham spoke in tongues and certainly baptized in Jesus name, as did Dr. Sykes around 1906. However there were many baptizing in Jesus name and speaking in other tongues in the 1800’s on Billy’s Island. A new German history of the early church relates that the first few centuries of the Church the predominant doctrine of the Godhead was Modalism and that the Trinity doctrine was formulated to combat Arianism and Gnosticism but overthrew Modalism as the predominant doctrine in the process. Sabellianism and Montanism certainly predates the Azusa Street Revival. Holy Rollers have been around for a long, long time!

    **”By the way, your habit of going back through history and claiming that every heretic was oneness kicked out by the Catholic church for telling the truth? “**

    “Every heretic” ? Can you name them? Have you read any of my literature or my recent book on Church history? If you can’t name the links I teach are in the chain of our Church lineage then you have no right to say I am a “liar” because YOU DON”T EVEN KNOW WHAT I AM SUPPOSEDLY LYING ABOUT!!!!

    ** “Further, Tertullian, who wrote “Against Praexis” to contend against your oneness doctrine, was considered a heretic himself. As you can tell that I regard Tertullian highly, it is only because, but please realize that Tertullian ultimately left the Montanists. If he was able to leave his false movement in the 200s (and at a very old age at that), then you are capable of doing so now.” **

    Sorry but Tertullian became a Montanist LATE in life, not visa versa. Except for a statement from St. Augustine who was trying to defend the memory of Tertullian, all indications are he remained theologically a Montanist to the very end, going as far as creating a sect more RADICAL then the original Montanists.

    “Sometime before 210, Tertullian, having become more and more displeased with the stolidity of many Christians and clergymen, converted to Montanism, a sectarian movement begun by the prophet Montanus and defined by its strident and ascetic moralism. Following his second conversion, Tertullian wrote many of his most vehement pronouncements on the morality of his contemporaries and moved far afield from the orthodox Christianity he had earlier championed. Tertullian wrote his final treatises by or before 222″ (Enote Dictionary)

    If you wish to call me a “liar” that is your choice. But please know what I teach before you attack me.

    Thank you.

  61. Jesusman said

    Job,

    If a song written in Hebrew or any other language were translated word for word and came out rhyming in English, that would be a truly amazing accomplishment. There is nothing wrong with translating things into English(BTW thanks for the Hebrew lesson, but I’m already pretty Hebrew literate and Yeshua/Yehoshua/Yoshua all mean “YHWH is saviour”), which is why the name Jesus is perfectly legitimate, but when the translated material just happens to rhyme and perpetuate a certain belief to speakers of the language into which it was translated, it must be concluded that there was a bit of tampering done with the original. If it rhymes in the original language, it is guaranteed NOT to rhyme in the translated.

    If the trinity doctrine is so clearly taught in Scripture, why do we have to infer it upon areas like you mentioned when it doesn’t say it directly? If this doctrine is so important, why didn’t Jesus or any of the Apostles make it absolutely clear? Why should Theophilus or anyone else have to clear things up for us? Show me a man living today who will tell you that he found your trinity doctrine from the Bible alone, without any “orthodox” teaching whatsoever, and I’ll show you a liar.

    “Let Us make man…..” God talking to Himself, it never actually mentions how many of “us” there are. Why not infer all of God’s attributes to be seperate persons? David spoke to his own soul many times “Bless the Lord, Oh my soul” The rich man in Jesus’ parable did the same “And I will say to my soul, Soul, thou hast much goods laid up for many years; take thine ease, eat, drink, and be merry.” Should we conclude from these instances that David and the rich man were each made up of at least two seperate persons because they talked to themselves? I say “Let’s go here” or “Let’s do this” to myself all the time, and I can assure you, if there were more than one of me, disaster would be on the horizon. God said “Let Us make man in Our Image” and He then proceeded to make one man, a threefold being of body, soul, and spirit. Why didn’t he make three men united in one human nature?

  62. Dr. Ward said

    You state that the little hymn is “THE BEST HISTORICAL PROOF” that Oneness claims are false.

    That is YOUR BEST??????

    I am thankful I have much better histoical proof then you do.

    BTW Charles, I was referring to scheduling a live debate. This forum is not the best medium in which to successfully engage in a debate. Waht we are now doing is about as good as it gets :)

  63. Eden Hadassah said

    Charles!

    I came on this morning, and saw the merry-go-round, so before I watch everyone go round and round, I will answer your post first…
    The last few days have been crazy in my home, so I had only have a few moments here and there to see some of the posts.
    Back to the original post…I COULDN’T FIND IT EITHER, AND IT DROVE ME NUTS! I did read your last one before it was lost in the sea of other posts.
    Joshua 9, I did read it, and after I am done reading this thread, I will give you my thoughts on the chapter. But I will say, that you have a point according to chapter 9, and I understand your perspective…IT’S A GOOD ONE!

    Love,
    the lil fruitcake

  64. Eden Hadassah said

    Dr. double D,

    Here is the problem with “debate” on topics of who’s right and who’s wrong about the divinity and personhood of God…
    If it is not done in humility, and only to try to “prove” a point, it is done in vain. “Do not take the name of the Lord in vain.” I can not go round and round on this issue, because it leads to the vanity of man and what he knows. It gives no real glory to the Lord of Hosts.
    There is but One God, and of our God, is His Holy Spirit, and of our God, is His Son, Yeshua the Messiah. He is seated at the Right Hand of God. It is our beautiful Lord that we are to love and admire, worship and adore…not our great grasp of “bible knowledge” or needing to prove anything.
    You have taken the name of the Lord in vain, as well as your disciple Jesusman by coming here with a sinful prideful attitude about what YOU think you know about God. You will go round and round with the same scriptures, but refuse to see that our Lord is the King, seated at the Right Hand of the Father. In doing so, you and Jesusman mock what you yourselves can’t seem to understand and expose your prideful and contentious spirit.
    Jesusman and you have both tried to create “images” of our God, yet, we know that images could not compare to the matchless beauty of the Lord our God. There is none like the Lord, and he is worthy of all our praise, yet you do not praise him as Lord. Is he the risen Lord to you? Did he suffer and die, and was he raised again to life by the Holy Spirit? I hope you believe at least this much.
    God is only a subject to you, this is what both of you have shown me. He is not real to either of you, but rather a subject for which you can have debates and show how you can read words.
    You obviously are not subject to the Lord and this is clear by your prideful vanity.

  65. Charles D. said

    Okay Missy, forgiven. I remember your grandchild wasn’t feeling well, so I pray that everything is fine now. I remember asking a few questiobs which might need long answers, but, they can certainly wait for less traffic.

    Hey Jesusman: Is the college that you attend denominational? If so, which one? Also, how do you plan to ultimately use your acquired skills and knowledge upon completion, (of course, we never “complete”), however, you get my meaning. Look forward to your response.

    Charles

  66. Charles D. said

    Dr. Double D:

    I will wait for your response, including ground rules. I have only one: That each of us absolutely use only the Bible and make zero references to anyone not included, or, otherwised mentioned in the Bible. The version however will be immaterial.

    Hey Missy; I’m leaving for work now, so, we will speak later.

    In Christ

    Charles

  67. Charles D. said

    Jesusman:
    I meant denominationally supported in comment 63 above.

    Chas

  68. Eden Hadassah said

    Charles,
    Ok, chapter 9. I agree that you have a really good point, but I wouldn’t apply it to Kate. She did not come being deceptive to try to trap us. She was pretty front and center with her beliefs and lack of beliefs. She made it clear what her position was from the beginning, so in this I found no deceit. HOWEVER, I would apply it to this thread, so the fact that we could not find the original post, makes perfect sense to me to post my comments in this thread. Classic! :)

  69. Dr. Ward said

    Job, Your repetitive referencing of JesusMan as a “first year Bible College student” appeared to be slurs and in my opinion was totally uncalled for. I personally know JesusMan and I can truthfully say he was a more then an accomplished autodidact before ever gracing the threshold of the College. His knowledge far exceeds most who have already graduated with honors. You or anyone else would do well in avoiding him in a live debate. You would not win.

    May I also add it was quite insensitive and uncalled for to condemn JesusMan for holding up the hands of his Pastor. An unknown individual (who obviously has never bothered to even read Dr. Ward’s literature) posted a public attack against JesusMan’s Pastor calling him a “liar.” JesusMan defends his Pastor and someone has the audacity to call it “hero worship.” It appears it is alright to lambast someone as a liar but it is NOT alright to defend that individual. The word says when one member suffers we all suffer and , may I add, it is a mandatory we stand together else we fall alone.

    JesusMan is not only an accomplished scholar but a dedicated Christian with high moral values and is quite a gentleman proficient in business matters. He is probably the most talented musician in our state and one of the most talented in our country, having played in a popular band. He could have much to brag about but all I see in his posts are defense of his Pastor and defense of the precious truth he holds so dear.

    I would caution you not to touch God’s anointed.

  70. djenk23 said

    Try again, doc…..a well versed Bible scholar such as yourself should know “touch not God’s anointed” is not applicable here….first of all, the verse says touch ie physically harm….stretching that verse to include talking about someone else is terrible exegesis of said verse….secondly, it seems like youre trying to draw attention away from that fact that you guys cant defend oneness in shape or form…..can you answer Acts 7:55-56?…how does Jesus stand on the right hand side of Himself?

  71. Jesusman said

    “You obviously are not subject to the Lord and this is clear by your prideful vanity.”—Eden Hadassah

    Your assertion that you are sort of “above the fray”, as it were, shows that it is YOU who are bubbling over with pride. You act as if you are the most spiritual, so you can’t be bothered to come down to the nitty gritty and mingle with the commoners. You claim Dr. Ward and I are lifting up our own knowledge, but then you go and do the same thing with your so-called spirituality. Reading someone’s defense of a doctrine does not give you the insight into their relationship with Jesus(this Jesus whom Dr. Ward and I both praise as the ONLY Lord, the risen Lord who suffered and died and was risen again by the Holy Spirit), and I would never assume what your standing with the Saviour is, especially based on what you post on a forum. Critique the message, not the messenger. When you can’t handle the heat of debating the issue at hand, you personally attack the people debating you. You should be ashamed of yourself. I’ll pray for you.

    Charles,
    My Bible College is independent. I was ordained as a minister on October 6th of this year with both Mercy Tabernacle in Benton, TN and the International Church of Jesus Christ. The calling I have received from God is that of an Evangelist. I hope to complete my studies and receive my degree and go with it where the Lord leads. I feel a strong call to go out into the evangelistic fields, but I must be led of the Lord in every step that I take. Your prayers would be appreciated. God Bless.

  72. Dr. Ward said

    Charles, Please forgive me if it appeared as if I ignored you. I am very busy and it was not intentional.
    I was referring to setting up a public debate in a College setting or a televised debate.
    However I would be more then happy to arrange something online in the not too distant future. At the present I am too bogged down. At any rate we seem to have already been engaged in a healthy debate and both sides have been very articulate.
    Blessings :)

  73. Jesusman said

    how does Jesus stand on the right hand side of Himself?—Djenk23

    How about this, How can ANYONE stand at the right side of an Omnipresent God? There is nowhere where God is not, so that leaves no room for anyone on EITHER side. The Right Hand of God refers to His Power, as Jesus said “The Right Hand of Power”, not to his physical right hand side, because an omnipresent being has no sides.

  74. Jesusman said

    “touch not God’s anointed” is not applicable here….first of all, the verse says touch ie physically harm….stretching that verse to include talking about someone else is terrible exegesis of said verse…——DJenk23

    Well I guess the kids who called Elisha “bald head” and became bear cuisine have a legitimate complaint. Maybe you could plead their case?

  75. Dr. Ward said

    A very informative book on Church history and perpetuity written by Dr. Curtis Ward will be on the market in the not-too-distant future. I am still working on the manuscript and next year I am going to the Middle East and also to Wales to gather the final information needed to complete my research. The book will cover not only an unbroken lineage of Church perpetuity throughout the ages but will cover the stories and lives of the martyrs that were beaten, imprisoned and savagely tortured by unimaginable methods. This is a must read for anyone interested in Church history. It will encourage those who adhere to the faith and will inform those that are not of us as to what we believe and teach. If you want a copy held for you in reserve leave a post stating such and arrangements will be made.

    The former Dr. Marvin Arnold was my dear friend and colleague. He was the first to propose the theory of the Apostolic Church having existed down through the ages (although William Chalfant had proposed the theory he did not , to my knowledge chart it out). As a pioneer in this new field some of his history may have the appearance of being a bit reckless, however, there were no previous shoulders for him to stand on. He was alone in his field. His proposal was that during various times in history that revival broke out in various places in the world in which there was glossolalia, Petrine water baptism, and belief in one God. However he did not teach or chart an unbroken lineage of a perpetual Church. Standing on the shoulders of Dr. Arnold and William Chalfant I began research many years ago into my own personal theorem of such a Church lineage. To my knowledge I was the first to propose the teaching of the unbroken lineage and perpetuity of the Apostolic Church and to actually chart her journey throughout the ages in a solid unbroken chain. I have traveled all over the world, gained access to formerly inaccessible archives in Italy, France, Switzerland, Germany, Holland, Israel, as well as in America, combed libraries, communicated with professors from different Universities, spoke with the elders that were living during the Azusa Street Revival, and most importantly I fell on my face before God in prayer and fasting humbly seeking the truth. I can truly report that I have insurmountable, indisputable PROOF that the Church has continued just as Christ said it would. His promise echoes throughout countless centuries declaring “Upon this rock I will build my Church and the gates of hell SHALL NOT PREVAIL AGAINST IT!!!” If there was even one break in that chain at any time in history and the Church had to be “restored” (such as a Protestant Reformation or an Azusa Street Revival) then this promise did not hold true. BUT IT DID HOLD TRUE!!! The Church has never been extinct. She survived through the terrible, ravaging ages of persecution. Although martyred, beaten, bruised, and afflicted the Church marched on! The lions couldn’t devour her, the coliseums couldn’t contain her, and the fires couldn’t destroy her!! Hell unleashed all it’s fury upon the Church but Christ’s word held like an anchor and in this 21rst century we can truthfully say THE GATES OF HELL DID NOT PREVAIL!!!!

  76. Dr. Ward said

    I simply do not have any further time to spend on this forum.

    I have stated my position.

    Again I will attempt to leave this discussion in more able hands then mine.

    Many blessings to all on your Christian journey.

  77. Eden Hadassah said

    Gee, I wonder if Jesusman and Dr. Curtis are the same man? Maybe that is the meaning of oneness?

    Jesusman, I don’t feel attacked or even baited by your vain attempts. Just because you make statements, doesn’t make them true. I love how the Dr. refers to himself in third person. (I hope you are not making statements for him.)
    You do not recognize that I have given glory to the Lord, and you still have not praised him, nor lifted him up as the King who sits at the Right Hand of the Father. So you nullify all your “you think you are so spiritual” talk, and deny the truth that you and the pastor have, and still continue to take the name of the Lord in vain. I gave you my position as far as debate goes, but I guess you still can not understand what I am saying to you. There is no debate…Yeshua wins. He is the King.

    It is equally troubling that your pastor feels the need to give us your resume’…
    You both lift up each other more then God. You brag more about your own accomplishments and knowledge, then about the Beauty of the Lord of Hosts. What is that?
    Who is anointed?
    Biblically speaking, there is ONE anointed ONE, that is the KING.
    Try not to usurp and attempt to de-throne Him!
    If your intention was to come and “make corrections” then also be prepared to be corrected.
    May all glory, power, and majesty be given to our Lord and our Savior, forever. For He alone is worthy to recieve all our praise.

    “Your assertion that you are sort of “above the fray”, as it were, shows that it is YOU who are bubbling over with pride. You act as if you are the most spiritual, so you can’t be bothered to come down to the nitty gritty and mingle with the commoners. You claim Dr. Ward and I are lifting up our own knowledge, but then you go and do the same thing with your so-called spirituality”

    Now there is interesting interpretation of “Do not take the name of the Lord in Vain”…
    I give a commandment of the Lord, and you tell me I am bubbling over with pride and “above the fray”? What planet did you come from? I did not lift up myself, nor did I give a laundry list of accomplishments of myself. And when does “do not take the name of the Lord in vain” refer to me as my own brand of spirituality?
    Will you really deny the truth that you are trying to lift up your knowledge about God, instead of actually lifting him up? Or don’t you believe in honoring him and being subject to him?

  78. djenk23 said

    how does Jesus stand on the right hand side of Himself?—Djenk23

    How about this, How can ANYONE stand at the right side of an Omnipresent God? There is nowhere where God is not, so that leaves no room for anyone on EITHER side. The Right Hand of God refers to His Power, as Jesus said “The Right Hand of Power”, not to his physical right hand side, because an omnipresent being has no sides.

    jesusman….thats a SERIOUS stretch of the text…Stephen saw Jesus at the right hand of God….if God has no sides, how could Moses see His back(Exodus 33)?…yall are stretching scripture to its breaking point to try and make the unexplainable explainable…Jesus always talked about the Holy Ghost and the Father as separate entities….Who was Jesus praying to in the Garden?..You’d have me believe that He was talking to Himself…Who was Jesus talking to on the cross…and your reference to Elisha has nothing to with “touch not mine anointed”..those boys didnt touch Elisha and the Bible says that he cursed those boys in the name of the Lord…..are you calling down curses now??….try again…

  79. djenk23 said

    how does Jesus stand on the right hand side of Himself?—Djenk23

    How about this, How can ANYONE stand at the right side of an Omnipresent God? There is nowhere where God is not, so that leaves no room for anyone on EITHER side. The Right Hand of God refers to His Power, as Jesus said “The Right Hand of Power”, not to his physical right hand side, because an omnipresent being has no sides.

    jesusman….thats a SERIOUS stretch of the text…Stephen saw Jesus at the right hand of God….if God has no sides, how could Moses see His back(Exodus 33)?…yall are stretching scripture to its breaking point to try and make the unexplainable explainable…Jesus always talked about the Holy Ghost and the Father as separate entities….Who was Jesus praying to in the Garden?..You’d have me believe that He was talking to Himself…Who was Jesus talking to on the cross…and your reference to Elisha has nothing to with “touch not mine anointed”..those boys didnt touch Elisha and the Bible says that he cursed those boys in the name of the Lord…..are you calling down curses now??….try again…

  80. djenk23 said

    jesusman….thats a SERIOUS stretch of the text…Stephen saw Jesus at the right hand of God….if God has no sides, how could Moses see His back(Exodus 33)?…yall are stretching scripture to its breaking point to try and make the unexplainable explainable…Jesus always talked about the Holy Ghost and the Father as separate entities….Who was Jesus praying to in the Garden?..You’d have me believe that He was talking to Himself…Who was Jesus talking to on the cross…and your reference to Elisha has nothing to with “touch not mine anointed”..those boys didnt touch Elisha and the Bible says that he cursed those boys in the name of the Lord…..are you calling down curses now??….try again…

  81. Eden Hadassah said

    There is a belief that an “anointed one” is a prophet. But prophets suffer a cruel fate if they are wrong. And if they are right, they also suffer a cruel fate. Isaiah was sawed in half, Jeremiah has seen the bottom of a well more than once, John the baptist had his head taken off, and the Lord himself, the True Anointed One, suffered and died, and was raised again to life.
    Some went into exile, others, died in exile, in the maddness of King Saul (the Lord’s anointed, who David was insistant on not harming for that main reason) he pursued David to the company of prophets, and the King’s men killed them all, to try to get David…
    The “touch not my anointed” senerio doesn’t work in your interpretation of the scriptures. It doesn’t work in the context of the “touch-not” cults because it promotes the flesh, and doesn’t lift up the One who anoints in the first place. The “touch-not” group are self-preservationist, and we know the Lord says “Those who seek to save their lives will loose it.”

  82. Eden Hadassah said

    I am also amazed at those who would call God a liar.
    This too is blasphamy. To say that God has no “sides”, when HE himself said to Moses, you can not see my FACE, but you will see my BACK. Now, to change anything that God says, calls Him a liar. And God does not lie.
    Again you mock the Lord.

  83. Crimson Wolf said

    So, we are to take these descriptions such as “face”, back”, “side”, etc. literally?

    Psalms 36:7 says “How excellent is thy loving kindness, O God! Therefore the children of men put their trust under the shadow of thy wings.”

    What? Are you saying God is a big feathered chicken?

  84. Eden Hadassah said

    I knew that one was coming!
    :)

    UHHH…no. ;)

  85. Eden Hadassah said

    You imply that he is a big feathered chicken,
    I say he is God…

  86. Charles D. said

    Of course you ignored me and slighted me as well. I’m very offended by your total disregard for mah feelins, suh!!!

    I certainly hope you have a sense of humor; because every now and again we all need to lighten-up. I’ve heard that God has a terrific sense of humor and He laughs every time we plan future events without first consulting Him. Seriously, I believe that God’s business is serious at all times and at every turn.

    Regarding my acceptance of your debate challenge: in my wildest dreams I would not have anticipated a sitting as formal as academia and a live televised debate (from my standpoint) would be totally out of the question. Even those candidates who are seeking the highest office in the land can barely get sufficient air time and even the air time they are getting, well I find somewhat over-bearing, to say nothing about boring.

    Those operating at that level have either an agenda, have a deep-seated need to bring someone around to their way of thinking, addicted to media exposure, for reasons other than propagating God’s truth. Then, you will understand why I insisted on using no references other than the Bible and no mention of any person not mentioned in the Bible. After all, the Bible is the only textbook God left us and the Bible is sufficient to make ANY points, or, state ANY positions pertaining to God.

    Now, my proposal may have seemed overly simplistic, even “country,” if you get my meaning; however, God’s Word says something to the effect of “I will use simple things to confound the wise…..” [emphasis added]. Again, the Bible is the only text God left me and in all of my years the Bible has been all I’ve ever needed and it has served me well.

    I appreciate the civilized manner in which you have propounded your position; I respect that and assure you that I’m not the enemy here. When I find myself in disagreement with a denomination, a school of belief, or doctrine, then, aat best, all I can do spiritually, include withholding financial and material support of any kind; however, I am required to respect you as God’s creation and avoid attacks of any kind which, include but is not limited to, verbal castigations or intellectual slights.

    I wish you well,

    Charles

  87. Eden Hadassah said

    Crimson,
    Why not answer the original question? Is God a liar? or did he say to Moses, you can not see my figuritive face, but you will see my figuritive back? YOU WILL NOT MAKE GOD A LIAR!
    That is as literal as it gets. He is not a liar, nor was he being “poetic” when he met Moses on Mt. Sinai.

    He is the Lord Most High, and He NEVER LIES.

    Charles…we missed each other again. I will be on tomorrow. My daughter has a cello concert tonight, so I won’t be on anymore this evening…
    (My bubbie used to call me “Missy”… I loved her so much! :) )

  88. Charles D. said

    I’m headed back to work. I hope the concert goes well and you don’t need a head of steam before going. So, cool off, forget all comments and take up tomorrow. I will have lots of time over the weekend and I am dying to hear your take on a program I viewed while at work which have to do with The Palestinians in Jordan during (I think 1986) but I might be mistaken because I was so punch-drunk, dead on my feet.

    Take care, be blessed,

    Charles

    BTW my previous comments were directed to Dr. Ward; but I know you knew that. Now, enjoy your daughter’s concert. Bye.

  89. Crimson Wolf said

    Wus up, Eden?

    No God is not a liar.
    He said “I am the first and I am the last; and beside me there is no God” (Isa. 44:6)
    “Is there a God beside me? Yea, there is no God; I know not any” (Isa.44:8)
    And in Isaiah 43: 11 the Lord God says “I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is NO SAVIOR.” (Isa. 43:11).

    Let’s see now,
    The first person of the Trinity says that HE is the first AND the last, he said there is NO other God BESIDE him? and and there was NO SAVIOR BESIDE him?
    Now did he boot out God number 2 and God number 3 or did he lie when he said no other God or savior was BESIDE him?

    Sounds like your chicken theory just layed an egg.

  90. johnkaniecki said

    Greetings All,

    Let me say that I hope you are all blessed and are in a joyful mood not only as the holidays approach but for the whole year.

    omnipresent- present everywhere

    As far as God being omnipresent I see the scriptures that were stated. My understanding is that God the Father has an awareness of all things. He could tell you the exact location of every electron throughout the entire universe if He so choose to do. But God the Father is not in everything. He is certainly no in a false idol. There is no God in a dollar bill even though it says In God We Trust. (The God a greed and the God of lust. To quote myself.)I can only see the Spirit as being omnipresent but on the cross Jesus gave up the Spirit, that is how he died. So Jesus was at a moment isolated from the Father and the Spirit….. Coments please.

    Doctor D. I spoke very little, yes it it true. That it is because it is a simple thing to count to three. One Jesus getting baptized, two the Holy Spirit getting sent down and three the Father speaking.

    Do not let me offend you that is not my intent. There is obviously great controversy and misunderstanding on this topic generated by the great amount of responses. I love to see everyone’s zeal.

    The cross was painful. We don’t need to examine methods of crucifixions or testimony’s of those who were near by to determine that. Sometimes learning will get in the way. I admire you because you have studied hard and have done your best. But this is not something to debate. The Bible is a book of perfect harmony, there are no contradictions. There is an answer to many things. Sometimes the answer is a mystery and we can’t come to it. This answer to this question is three distinct personalities united as one. We can clearly see from scripture the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. How they come together is beyond any human mind to understand.

    Charles, I like your comments better than mine this time around.

    Love,

    John

    I picture God more like Big Bird than a normal chicken though.

  91. johnkaniecki said

    Hello,

    It was further commented on another entry about the issue of God being present everywhere. This is a serious issue and my previous entry above touches on many points. I will need time to gather scriptures to see if it substantuates my point of view. I always bow to scripture when it is presented clear and without bias.

    God is not in everything. God’s Spirit is thought to be everywhere though. There is never a command to worship the Spirit of God. In Joshua when the Spirit of God commands Joshua to take off his shoes as the land is holy the Spirit does so for reverence for His position. The Spirit of God at this moment comes as the commander of the Lord’s Army. A title that demands and requires respect.

    The pagans worship nature and any Christian would know that this is wrong. The question then would be, Is God’s Spirit in Trees? If God is omnipresent then the answer must be yes. It is the manifestation of God in that tree that must be examined. I can say with authority of the Bible that neither Jesus, nor the Father dwells in a tree. I can further say with the authority of the Bible that the Spirit of God does not dwell in unbelievers. Acts 2:38 talks about the gift of the Holy Spirit under some conditions. The scripture comes to mind when Jesus says that some people are children of God and some people are children of the devil.The Spirit of God dwells only in those who have been regenerated. I think it is safe to say that God, the Father, Son and Holy Spirit do not dwell everywhere.

    Recall that some parts of the Bible are poetic. This does not make them less than scripture. You can’t take the Bible literally or Jesus would be a lamb. That is a four legged beast walking around with curly hair. The best way to resolve these issues of scripture would be to examine them one by one and see what the author really intended to say. I think some of what the author says will be missed by us because we are finite. The Bible was written by men in conjuncture with the Holy Spirit. Luke and Acts uses medical terms because they were in the author’s vocabulary.

    I hope that anyone would feel free to jump right on in this conversation as this is exactly the free expression of ideas and opinions that this forum provides to its participants.

    Please pray for my wife and I. I need prayer for tomorrow and the next few days. Much has happened here.

    Love,

    John

  92. Jesusman said

    “We can clearly see from scripture the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.”—Johnkaniecki

    The Roman Catholic Church, who officially standardized the Trinity doctrine and made it a core belief of the faith, has made it clear that the “Sola Scriptura” Protestants have no business believing the Trinity doctrine because it cannot be found solely in the Bible. The Trinity doctrine has been declared part of the RCC’s “progressive revelation” and not something that was fully revealed to any Biblical author. It’s like I’ve said before, show me a man who says he found the Trinity doctrine as held by mainstream Christianity by studying the Bible alone without any orthodox teaching at all, and I’ll show you a liar.

    “God is not in everything. God’s Spirit is thought to be everywhere though. There is never a command to worship the Spirit of God.”—-Johnkaniecki

    John 4:24
    GOD IS A SPIRIT: and they that worship him must worship him in SPIRIT and in TRUTH.

    Moses saw a Manifestation of God. Is John a liar when he said “No man hath seen God at any time”? Solomon declares “But will God indeed dwell on the earth? behold, the heaven and heaven of heavens cannot contain thee; how much less this house that I have builded?”
    Certainly Mount Sinai cannot contain Him either. The entire Universe cannot contain Him. The Universe exists within God. Don’t try to make Him smaller than He is. That is the very opposite of “Magnifying the Lord” Ciao.

  93. Jesusman said

    Deuteronomy 4:39Know therefore this day, and consider it in thine heart, that the LORD he is God in heaven above, and upon the earth beneath: there is none else.

    Psalm 139:7Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence?
    8If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.
    9If I take the wings of the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea;
    10Even there shall thy hand lead me, and thy right hand shall hold me.

    Proverbs15:3The eyes of the LORD are in every place, beholding the evil and the good.

  94. Jesusman said

    Jeremiah 23:24Can any hide himself in secret places that I shall not see him? saith the LORD. Do not I fill heaven and earth? saith the LORD.

    Acts 17:27That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:
    28For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.

  95. Crimson Wolf said

    Ok Dudes, we’ll take the scripture literally when it says Jesus sat on the right hand of God.

    But I have just one annoying thought….

    ….I wonder if God’s hand has gone numb with Jesus sitting on it for so many centuries?

  96. Eden Hadassah said

    I am amazed by the mocking that goes on concerning the word of God.
    God is not a liar, yet no one seems to want to stop the merry-go-round about what GOD said to Moses. Did God lie to Moses and deceive him about His presence?

    “Ok Dudes, we’ll take the scripture literally when it says Jesus sat on the right hand of God.

    But I have just one annoying thought….

    ….I wonder if God’s hand has gone numb with Jesus sitting on it for so many centuries?”

    I don’t recall the scriptures saying that Yeshua sat ON the right hand of God. Hummm…?
    Lovely. Anyone who would mock the word of God has no respect or honor for His authority, nor His Worthiness to be Praised.

    John, I will be praying for you and your wife.

  97. Jesusman said

    E.H.,

    Did John lie when he said “No man hath seen God at
    any time”? Moses saw a manifestation of God, which was no less God, but not as His omnipresent self. Abraham and Jacob saw a manifestation as well. Too many more to mention.

    “I don’t recall the scriptures saying that Yeshua sat ON the right hand of God. Hummm…?” You mean you don’t recall any of these?

    Mark 16:19
    So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat ON the right hand of God.

    Acts 7:55
    But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus STANDING ON the right hand of God,

    Acts 7:56
    And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing ON the right hand of God.

    Colossians 3:1
    If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth ON the right hand of God.

    Hebrews 10:12
    But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down ON the right hand of God;

    1 Peter 3:22
    Who is gone into heaven, and is ON the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.

  98. Crimson Wolf said

    Uh oh, Eden….

    …You laid another egg.

  99. djenk23 said

    please quit with the verbal gymnastics…..

    Mark 10:35-37
    35 Then James and John, the sons of Zebedee, came to Him, saying, “Teacher, we want You to do for us whatever we ask.”
    36 And He said to them, “What do you want Me to do for you?”
    37 They said to Him, “Grant us that we may sit, one on Your right hand and the other on Your left, in Your glory.”

    did James and John want to literally sit on Jesus’ hands…..no…..just show me in scripture, particularly during Jesus’ baptism and transfiguration, when it says Jesus abandoned the Jesus manifestation to become the Father manifestation in order to proclaim from Heaven that He was His son….you cant..

  100. Jesusman said

    “just show me in scripture, particularly during Jesus’ baptism and transfiguration, when it says Jesus abandoned the Jesus manifestation to become the Father manifestation in order to proclaim from Heaven that He was His son….you cant..”—Djenk23

    We’ve never tried to, because Oneness doctrine doesn’t teach this. The manifestations were simultaneous. The God of the Apostolic Faith is a God capable of being in more than one place at a time. We can’t hold God to a human standard. Notice He said “This is My Beloved Son IN whom I am well pleased” The Father is not the Son. The Father is IN the Son.

    John 14:7If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.
    8Philip saith unto him, Lord, show us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
    9Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet HAST THOU NOT KNOWN ME, Philip? HE THAT HATH SEEN ME HATH SEEN THE FATHER; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?
    10Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and THE FATHER IN ME? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but THE FATHER THAT DWELLETH IN ME, he doeth the works.

    Colossians 2:8Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men(like Trinity doctrine), after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
    9FOR IN HIM DWELLETH ALL THE FULLNESS OF THE GODHEAD BODILY

  101. Crimson Wolf said

    Gymnastics?

    You have to admit that would be quite a feat to hold a human being on each hand.

    But read the next verse,

    “Jesus said, You know not what you ask”

    Whoops another egg!

  102. Eden Hadassah said

    Well Crimson, the only thing that you have shown me is that you literally misquote scriptures…consistantly.

    I guess that leaves egg on your face.

    Yet you still didn’t answer the question…Did God lie to Moses?
    If he didn’t lie, then stop trying to change the subject by asking if John lied. Last time I checked, John was just a disciple. A servant. Not the Lord of Hosts who spoke to Moses.
    No more, “there are many manifestations of God.” That is circumventing and duplicitous at best, showing no “oneness” with God. If you were “one” with God, you would know this. But I guess that is the missing link in all of your “knowledge.” Satan knows scriptures, and knows how to quote and misquote too, but he isn’t one with the Lord either. Satan has no regard for the Word of God either, and his vain attempts to lift himself up are showing me more and more that you are one with someone, but it aint God.
    It is clear that you would like to misquote scriptures, but what is the good in that? What glory does it bring to the Lord?
    It only draws attention to you as someone who doesn’t submit to the authority of God.

  103. johnkaniecki said

    Eden,

    Hello and best wishes from a snowy New Jersey.

    Jesus was the one John quoted. Furthermore angels have seen God’s face many many times. A man will die seeing God’s face but then he goes on to judgement. His status has changed from human being to something else. Ever watch a dying person? I never did but I have heard accounts. It is like they see a face. Is it then God’s face calling them home?

    Love,

    John

    Eden, might I compliment you on your vocabulary. It helps me to learn and relearn difficult words.

    GOD BLESS YOU!!!!!

  104. Eden Hadassah said

    Hi John,
    How is your wife? I hope all is going well for you.
    What vocabulary? :)
    I have always stunk at spelling and vocabulary. Math too! Sometimes my kids would ask for help spelling a word, and I would laugh and tell them they were asking the wrong person!
    My famous line to them was always, “go get the dictionary.”
    But I guess my better half is the balance! He is a word nut. He loves to break words a part and deconstruct them to the root.
    We play a game at dinner time using our huge dictionary…
    Someone flips open the book, points to a word, and each of us has to see if we know the meaning of the word. (Notice, no one attempts to spell it? ;) ) It isn’t a shortcoming with the three of my kids though. Only one of them has inherited my mental block with spelling.
    Anyway they love that game, as do I.
    But thank you John for your kind words.

  105. johnkaniecki said

    Eden,

    duplicitous-
    circumventing-

    How about Edenessing – The attempt to explain a difficult topic compassionately while trying to maintain calmness, getnleness and composure. Usually with regards to a religious or political topic.

    Love,

    John

  106. Eden Hadassah said

    ;)

    :)

    Now I have no words.
    My husband will love your new word and definition.

    Thank you for cheering my soul, I was a little upset in the other thread. Not at anyone in particular though.

  107. Eden Hadassah said

    Oops, I did lay an egg,
    I forgot to add Jesusman to comment #102.

    Please forgive my neglect of not adding you Jesusman to the comment. It was directed towards both of you.

  108. Crimson Wolf said

    Shalom, Namaste. Howpla, and Howdy neighbor!!!

    Eden, sweetie, I don’t claim to completely understand the godhead….
    I don’t even understand my wife’s head!

  109. Crimson Wolf said

    OK, Eden, I will answer your question using God’s very spoken word, straight from the first person of the Trinitarian club:

    No God is not a liar.
    He said “I am the first and I am the last; and beside me there is no God” (Isa. 44:6)
    “Is there a God beside me? Yea, there is no God; I know not any” (Isa.44:8)
    And in Isaiah 43: 11 the Lord God says “I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is NO SAVIOR.” (Isa. 43:11).

    (1) Now God says there is no other God beside him.

    Therefore if Jesus is sitting by his side then Jesus is not God.
    Right? Or does God lie?

    (2) God says there no savior beside him.

    Therefore if Jesus is sitting beside God then Jesus is not a savior.
    Right? Or does God lie?

    I answered you, cupcake, now answer me :)

  110. Crimson Wolf said

    Look, I’m not trying to be irreverent.

    It’s just that I am reading all these postings and this is what I am seeing: The Trinitarians are attacking the Oneness individuals in this forum calling them “liars” (Dr. Ward in particular), making fun of their acadamia (JesusMan), calling these individuals names, putting them down, and saying things like : Liar, sports club jumping, insanity or reprobate mind, bring glory to yourself, you mispelled , pride, blasphemy, you give many words but say little, prideful, vanity, heretic, toilet face, make fun of a young minister who tries to defend his Pastor by calling it hero worship,and make fun of someone just because they are in their first year of college, etc.

    HOWEVER, the ONLY thing the Oneness people stick to is the scripture. I have seen absolutly no character attacks from the Oneness people like I do the Trinitarians…Hmmmmm…THAT DOES IT…I have made up my mind…I am joining the Oneness group!!!
    Thanks Trinitarians.

    • RaeAnne Jones said

      Praise the LORD! I am in Oneness in Council Bluffs, IA. “By this shall all men know you are my disciples, that you love one another. Praise the LORD.

  111. Crimson Wolf said

    By the way…everything above is true except the part about toilet face…no one said that…I just threw that one in for effects.

    Poetic liscense :) :) :) :) ;)

  112. Eden Hadassah said

    You did not answer the question I asked you. You said, “No God does not lie.” That is not what I asked, and you know it. I asked you if God lied to Moses and deceived him about his presence.

    Love
    Cupcake ;)

  113. Eden Hadassah said

    I think you have made your point…the oneness group is perfect for you. Enjoy the bliss.

  114. Eden Hadassah said

    These are the concluding remarks of Ariel
    Ministries…

    “In the Hebrew Scriptures you will also find all three personalities of the Godhead referred to in single passages. Two examples are Isaiah 48:12-16 and 63:7-14.

    Because of the significance of the first passage, it will be quoted:

    “Listen to Me, O Jacob, and Israel, My called: I am He, I am the first, I am also the last. Indeed My hand has laid the foundation of the earth, and My right hand has stretched out the heavens; when I call to them, they stand up together. All of you, assemble yourselves, and hear! Who among them has declared these things? The LORD loves him; he shall do His pleasure on Babylon, and His arm shall be against the Chaldeans. I, even I, have spoken; yes, I have called him, I have brought him, and his way will prosper. Come near to Me, hear this: I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, I was there. And now the Lord GOD and His Spirit have sent Me.”

    It should be noted that the speaker refers to himself as the one who is responsible for the creation of the heavens and the earth. It is clear that he cannot be speaking of anyone other than God. But then in verse 16, the speaker refers to himself using the pronouns of I and me and then distinguishes himself from two other personalities. He distinguishes himself from the Lord YHVH and then from the Spirit of God. Here is the Tri-Unity as clearly defined as the Hebrew Scriptures make it.

    In the second passage, there is a reflection back to the time of the Exodus where all three personalities were present and active. The Lord YHVH is referred to in verse seven, the Angel of YHVH in verse nine, and the Spirit of God in verses 10, 11, and 14. While often throughout the Hebrew Scriptures God refers to Himself as being the one solely responsible for Israel’s redemption from Egypt, in this passage three personalities are given credit for it. Yet no contradiction is seen since all three comprise the unity of the one Godhead.

    Conclusion
    The teaching of the Hebrew Scriptures, then, is that there is a plurality of the Godhead. The first person is consistently called YHVH, while the second person is given the names of YHVH, the Angel of YHVH and the Servant of YHVH. Consistently and without fail, the second person is sent by the first person. The third person is referred to as the Spirit of YHVH or the Spirit of God or the Holy Spirit. He, too, is sent by the first person but is continually related to the ministry of the second person.

    If the concept of the Tri-Unity of God is not Jewish according to modern rabbis, then neither are the Hebrew Scriptures. Jewish believers in Yeshua (Jesus), or Messianic Jews, cannot be accused of having slipped into paganism when they hold to the fact that Yeshua is the divine Son of God. He is the same one of whom Moses wrote when the LORD said:

    “Behold, I send an Angel before you to keep you in the way and to bring you into the place which I have prepared. Beware of him and obey his voice; do not provoke him, for he will not pardon your transgressions; for My name is in him. But if you indeed obey his voice and do all that I speak, then I will be an enemy to your enemies and an adversary to your adversaries. For My angel will go before you and bring you in to the Amorites and the Hittites and the Perizzites and the Canaanites and the Hivites and the Jebusites; and I will cut them off” (Exodus 23:20-23).

    New Testament Light
    In keeping with the teachings of the Hebrew Scriptures, the New Testament clearly recognizes that there are three persons in the Godhead, although it becomes quite a bit more specific. The first person is called the Father while the second person is called the Son. The New Testament answers the question of Proverbs 30:4: “…What is His name, and what is His son’s name, If you know?” His son’s name is Yeshua (Jesus). In accordance with the Hebrew Scriptures, he is sent by God to be the Messiah, but this time as a man instead of as an angel. Furthermore, he is sent for a specific purpose: to die for our sins. In essence, what happened is that God became a man (not that man became God) in order to accomplish the work of atonement.

    The New Testament calls the third person of the Godhead the Holy Spirit. Throughout the New Testament he is related to the work of the second person, in keeping with the teaching of the Hebrew Scriptures. We see, then, that there is a continuous body of teaching in both the Hebrew Scriptures and the New Testament relating to the Tri-Unity of God. “

  115. Charles said

    Crimson Wolf Says:

    “But I have just one annoying thought….”
    “…I wonder if God’s hand has gone numb with Jesus sitting on it for so many centuries.”

    You inability to be “funny,” is exceeded only by your ability to annoy others and make a donkey of yourself. “Seated at the right-hand of the Father” is quite different than “sitting on.” However, if you will study the “parts of speech,” then I will teach you how both can mean the very same thing, but right now, you’d rather pursue the question of just how many Christians will engage in the folly with a fool.

    Wise up,

    Charles

  116. johnkaniecki said

    Hello,

    Allow me to add my two cents, a quarter of the moon and a liberty half dollar.

    The light shines in the darkness. This is a good thing. The light shines through and the darkness allows it to pass without obstruction.

    The shadow is created when something gets in the way of the light like a tree.

    The Spirit of God is illuminated only through the Spirit’s allowing the light to pass unfiltered.

    Look outside at the universe and then see the light. If air wasn’t clear we would have either no light or a haze.

    Revelation 11 talks about the two to come. I believe one of them will be the Spirit of God in the flesh. He will be like Elija while the other like unto Moses. I get these two figures when I see the plagues they inflict upon the world. When the Spirit of God manifests Himself in the Flesh, The Comforter will lead us into all things. (I’m going back to John.) This is what I call the footnote in the Bible. I believe the Bible is complete yet Revelation 11 talks about two who will prophesy. They got a lot of stuff to say about things Jesus didn’t or couldn’t deal with.

    Some of the views expressed in this entry are my own opinion while others are inferences from scriptures.

    Saying all that may the peace of God keep you and bless you.

    Eden, your prayers worked.

    Love,

    John

    On another matter about God being omnipresent please read 1 Samuel chapter 5 in its entirety. If you think God was present in the statue of Dagon we have a serious problem and must go to basics. I say this because it is a true statement.

  117. Eden Hadassah said

    John,
    Your point about being omnipresent is right on. It would be a pagan thought process to say that the spirit of God is in everything.
    I do feel that dirt is holy though! :) That is a joke, yet I am serious at the same time. It is holy because it always obey’s what God designed it to do. When water is added to it, it becomes wet, and never remains dry. An observation. (I am not saying that God is in the dirt, but he did make Adam from it)
    Just a little diversion.
    I am glad that she is doing better. May the Lord be praised for his faithfulness and love. It wasn’t my prayers, it was his love and his goodness.

  118. Eden Hadassah said

    Have a great night all…

    Chaz man, when do you sleep? I know you are busy…
    This weekend my husband will be busy in Annapolis :( , so I will most likely be online here and there. In the mean time, GET SOME SLEEP!
    love you.
    Fruitcake Missy

  119. johnkaniecki said

    Eden,

    In engineering we call the dirt soil. The soil can have a lot of clay in it.

    Love,

    John

  120. Charles D. said

    Are you stalking me!!?? I cannot believe the coincedent but I too will be in Annapolis this weekend. BUT, I will ahev my laptop so tyou’re not off of the hook. I will sneak in a moment here and there.

    I am off 3 week days next 2 weeks. I absolutely cannot wait to tell you about something I received which accounts for my dwelling on our friend. Take care, wish you blessings

    Charles

  121. Crimson Wolf said

    Charles, Charles, Charles,

    Did you not read my post above about how naughty it is to attack peoples character?

    I am dissapointed in you!

    You called me a fool and a donkey. Is that any way to win me to the Lord? Aren’t you concerned about my soul?

  122. Crimson Wolf said

    Now let’s put aside donkey’s, chickens, and fish heads for a moment and let us analyze the scripture in question.

    Your “seated at the right hand of the Father” phrase comes from the Nicene Creed. YES, THE ROMAN CATHOLIC ONE!!!

    The WORD says :
    Mark 16:19
    So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat ON the right hand of God.

    Acts 7:55
    But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus STANDING ON the right hand of God,

    Acts 7:56
    And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing ON the right hand of God.

    Colossians 3:1
    If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth ON the right hand of God.

    Hebrews 10:12
    But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down ON the right hand of God;

    1 Peter 3:22
    Who is gone into heaven, and is ON the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.

    Charlie, ya just cant get the Roman Catholic out of ya, can ya?

    And YOU called ME stupid?

    I can hear you braying all the from Canada.

  123. Crimson Wolf said

    Now of course I do not believe Christ actually sat ON Gods hand. Your assuming I did betrays your donkeyness.
    What I was trying to get all of you hillbilly’s to see (oops, now you got ME calling people names) is that you cannot take these phrases literally. I am very fluent in Greek,Hebrew,Aramaic, and Appalachian and I can assure you the Syrian Bible in Aramaic paints a more realistic picture of these phrases then does our bulky, clumsy, limited english.

    Playing the donkeys advocate, what would it matter ANYWAY if Jesus sat on a chair by the Father? How would that threaten Oneness theology? Oneness believe in three!!! The big battle is over whether or not God has three bodies or one.

  124. Crimson Wolf said

    Because pagans believe in omnipresence that makes it wrong?

    They also believe in the immortal soul. Does that mean WE shouldn’t?

  125. Journeyin2Light said

    The problem upon us involves not understanding the nature of God.
    What does it matter if God is one body or three bodies or a thousand bodies. He is still God. You may call him Jehovah and he is still God. You may call him Jesus and he is still God. You may call him Allah, Brahma, Shiva, Vishnu, Krishna, or Rama. Are you foolish enough to beleive that God is a Trinity or a Jesus Only or any description within these comments? God has not three but MILLIONS of manifestations.Every major religion has a Trinity. In India it is Brahma, Shiva, and Vishnu. It is no different then the Christian Trinity. As a matter of fact it is the SAME Trinity and the SAME God who has revealed himself to different cultures in different times. Do you honestly believe that if a sincere soul cried out to God calling him Brahma that a loving merciful God would burn that sincere soul in hell forever just because he got Gods name wrong?

  126. Charles D. said

    Crimson Wolf:

    You take much for granted and in so doing you have mistaken me for one who actually gives a tinkers (you fill in the blank). Anywho, as long as I present the gospel as the Spirit leads me to and as Christ has commanded, then, the maintenance of your soul is entirely up to you (free moral agency), but then, that would not be a concept that’s foreign to you.

    I have to stand by my earlier comments; both of them. You are to learn the “parts of speech” “You are,even more of a donkey” and you prove it with each additional utterence.

    Now, I have one more for you. Part of it scripture, part is my opinion of you in view of the totality of your comments:

    There are three things that that cry for more: a barren womb; an empty grave; and stripes for the back of Crimson Wolf.
    Again, wise up. About your language gymnastic abiblty; I have to assume you speak those better than you speak English. What is the “mother” tongue of Canada, anyway? AND, Can’t resist this one:
    “Charles I can hear you braying all the from Canada.” oooooooouuuuuuuuuu!!! All the way from the newnited states, huh? I guess you put me in my place. Now, if only you could find yours.

    You’re in over your head son and you don’t even realize it. Dare I say more?

    Charles

  127. Jesusman said

    Deuteronomy 4:35 Unto thee it was shewed, that thou mightest know that the LORD he is God; there is none else beside him.

    Deuteronomy 6:4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:

    Deuteronomy 32:39 See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand.

    2 Samuel 7:22 Wherefore thou art great, O LORD God: for there is none like thee, neither is there any God beside thee, according to all that we have heard with our ears.

    Psalm 83:18 That men may know that thou, whose name alone is JEHOVAH, art the most high over all the earth.

    Psalm 86:10 For thou art great, and doest wondrous things: thou art God alone.

    Isaiah 43:10 Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. 11 I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.

    Isaiah 44:6 Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.

    Isaiah 45:18 For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else.

    Isaiah 45:21 Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; THERE IS NONE BESIDE ME.

    Hosea 13:4 Yet I am the LORD thy God from the land of Egypt, and thou shalt know no god but me: FOR THERE IS NO SAVIOUR BESIDE ME

    Mark 12:29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:

    John 14: 7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.
    8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, show us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
    9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?
    10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

    John 14: 16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
    17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: BUT YE KNOW HIM; FOR HE DWELLETH WITH YOU, AND SHALL BE IN YOU.
    18 I WILL NOT LEAVE YOU COMFORTLESS: I WILL COME TO YOU.
    19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.
    20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father(omnipresence), and ye in me(omnipresence), and I in you.(indwelling/omnipresence)

    1 Corinthians 8:4 As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is none other God but one.

    Ephesians 4:6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

    1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

    1 Timothy 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

    James 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

  128. Charles D. said

    Crimson Wolf Says:
    “Charles, Charles, Charles,
    Did you not read my post above about how naughty it is to attack peoples character?”

    I did, then, as I was strolling down other of your comments where you violated your very own admonition addressed to Eden, I suddenly realize that you were of the type that like to dish it but can take very little. You should be ashamed of yourself.

    Now please understand, Eden doesn’t need me defending her. I’ve seen her “clean the clock” of some more knowledgable then yourself. Matter of factly, if you can stop acting like the side-show freak (with a new suit), and look closely enough; then, you will realize that she has already “cleaned your clock” and you don’t realize it yet. One day, whenever you decide to read a Bible (for full effect), then it will hit you like a ton of spiritual bricks.

    Have a good one, your friend from the U.S.,

    Charles

  129. johnkaniecki said

    Hey Crimson Wolf,

    Welcome to the blog. I like you ideas and your swift mind.

    Might I comment. A loving merciful God can overlook anything He wants as exhibited by the thief on the cross. Yet the reality is Jesus is Lord. I try to promote that because I have a deep love for people.

    About oneness and trinity. Do you notice people only argue between one and three. Nobody on this blog suggests two or four. That speaks volumes.

    Love,

    John

    Oh Wolf you could hunt a lot better when the natives bring the buffalo back.

  130. Crimson Wolf said

    HA HA HA, Oh Charlie…I just love how elegantly you insert your foot in your mouth!
    May I reprint your quote:

    “Again, wise up. About your language gymnastic abiblty; I have to assume you speak those better than you speak English. What is the “mother” tongue of Canada, anyway? AND, Can’t resist this one:
    “Charles I can hear you braying all the from Canada.”

    In my haste I ommitted the word “way” in “all the WAY from Canada.” A common typo. But what is so hilarious is in your attempt to discredit me by focusing in on an ordinary typo you criticize my gymnastic “abiblty.”

    Char, You don’t happen to live in a glass house do you?

  131. Crimson Wolf said

    John,
    Now that you bring it to my attention I indeed notice that.

    Last night I got to wondering if I might be a god.

    My wife served me a burnt offering for supper.

  132. Crimson Wolf said

    John Said:

    “Hey Crimson Wolf,

    Welcome to the blog. I like you ideas and your swift mind.”

    Thank you, John. I am quite thankful that God has allowed me to have any mind at all. Early in my college days I began to seek “God consciousness” through drugs. I finally got off of drugs and had a genuine experience with God and it was YEARS after I got saved that I finally went back and finished college.
    Many of my former friends are dead or burned out. I thank God for the lifeline.

  133. Eden Hadassah said

    Charles,

    My daughter wrote a song once called “Stalkers Inc.”
    It was pretty funny. She had one of those love sick puppies chasing her. It was cute until he couldn’t take no for answer, and used to park outside our house after school all day, crying because he just knew “they were meant to be together.”
    It turned into a circus. It didn’t turn out too bad, but she learned alot about eighteen year old boys that still suck their thumbs! I guess that should have been her red flag, huh? ;)

    I will be home this weekend, but my husband will be in Annapolis. Maybe he is stalking you. He has loved all your posts since I started coming to this site…should I be concerned? :)

    Yes, this weekend, when you have time, give me your thoughts.

  134. Crimson Wolf said

    Charles, Eden,
    Hey I appreciate both of you and your dedicated commitment to the Lord. In this country we live in (never really SAID I was from Canada so keep guessing) we have religious freedom and with that comes the luxury of disagreeing among ourselves. However should trial and tribulation come upon us here as it has in China and other countries and we had to meet underground then we would be rowing the boat together as comrades.
    My concern is the blatant attack on the CHARACTER of those that believe different then you do. For example, what brought me to this forum was Dr. Wards name came up in a Google search. While you might think he is some starchy, dry, boring, intellectual in reality he is not. He evangelized for over 20 years or more and was well known as an evangelist BEFORE he ever published anything about church history. As an evangelist he was vibrant and exciting. I assure you others like myself will Google his name and end up here commenting. Calling him a liar is a guarantee to bring Oneness people out of the woodwork like termites. I also sat different times under Dr. Marvin Arnolds ministry. There is an undercurrent that is growing in Apostolic ranks that believe in Church perpetuity. It has become a subject dear to the hearts of many and to hear it blasted not only hurts but ironically energizes us to take it to further heights. Many Oneness people themselves do not believe in it but once you study it out you will never again be the same. The history has been laying there dormant for centuries and just within the last few years has it begun to be discovered.
    Once again when you attack peoples character you accomplish nothing. You have simply made an enemy NOT a convert. Sticking to the scripture will not only sharpen ones intellectual ability in researching the scriptures but will cause one to search his/her personal opinions.
    BTW Charles, Eden, and others….I really have a luv fer ya all and most of what I say is just in fun (kinda like chasing the birdie in Tennis). Just lighten up, have fun, dig deep, and be constructively critical but unconditionally loving.
    Thanx :) :) :) :) :) :) ;)
    XOXOXOXO

  135. Charles said

    Hey Crimson:

    One of the main differences between us might be security and insecurity. Have you noticed how you have to always go back and set the stage before you address a comment? That’s a sign of insecurity. I am perfectly comfortable disregarding one of my typos, so long as the intended party gets my meaning, and you obviously did. I feel perfectly comfortable with my collegiate background; unlike some people I know who sounds as though he stole the paper upon which his ?degree? is written. I won’t write his name, but, his initials are: “Crimson Wolf.”

    As I negotiate the mine-fields that you call comments, I have determined that the only people that understand you are those whose mind is not on the Bible and those who just don’t care about whatever you have to say. Count me in the latter group.

    Listen Rube, you heard it here first: you’re in over your head son and you don’t even realize it. Why do you like to self-flagellate? You should spend so much time thinking about, studying the Word, and talking about Jesus.

    If you are just determined to get that B’hind blistered, repeatedly, I will provide my email address, then, we can “take it to the streets,” and leave this post for the ones seeking spiritual things.

    Gu day,

    Charles

  136. Charles said

    Hey My Fruitcake:

    I was (still am) so overly protective of my two girls and it made them so up-set. I only had problems with one boy; she was 19 and about 105 on her best day at the time and he was 6′6” 225 and he was 18. She married him and made me a grandpa with a boy and girl. And yes, that little manipulative granddaughter have had me wrapped around her little finger since she was 6 months. Good thing she has a good and honest heart, so, I could always live with that. Tell you about my grandson later. He and I have always been close, however, we’ve just started to very seriously bond within the past 2-3 years. I wanted his father to do the deed before I stole anyone’s thunder; I think thats important.

    I was a little apprehensive about Annapolis at first because most of my previous experiences there were not always good. On more than a couple of occasions, I had to “high-tail it” to the Academy’s grounds to be safe. Those were my young-dumb years though.

    When I comment over the weekend, I will make reference to an email that I have already deleted (in fact, almost as soon as I had received it). So, the major basis for what I’m thinking comes from that, plus, two different posts on this site. That said: it doen’t make me right and I have noticed some very sharp observations that you’ve made, things that some of us probably would have missed had you not brought it up. So, I will just see what happens, and look forward.

    Okay, I did notice you let my lil ole stock market comment slide. whutssup wid dat?

    Chas

  137. Crimson Wolf said

    HA HA, Atta boy Charley, go down with the ship!

    Your foot must really taste good.

    MY critical mention of YOUR typo was in defense of YOUR criticism of MY typo.

    BTW You never one time heard me claim to have or not have a degree.
    I never came here with intellectual words like Dr. Ward, or volumnous scriptures like Jesus man or pompous superiorority like Job.
    I came as a donkey (according to you) with Jesus riding on my back.
    I have come crude, plain, open, and to the point.
    Don’t feel like you have to continue mentioning your educational status. I don’t care. They thought Einstien was retarded when he was in the fourth grade so there is still hope for you.

    Charley, once again you have dissapointed me. I come in an apologetic frame of mind and you become a threatening E-Bully.

    Lighten up, Dude. Your already ahead of me. After all, you have three Gods and I only have one. ;)

  138. Eden Hadassah said

    Crimson,
    Now that was a very articulate and well thought out post! :)
    I really appreciate it. (truly)
    If you were to go to my first post, (I didn’t write the article, and actually, I didn’t even read it) what I saw in Jesusman’s comment’s was over the line as far as looking up to a pastor. Our faith comes from the Lord, it is a gift from Him, and in the post that he put out there, I saw something different. Now, I may not put chapter and verse scriptures in my sentences, but the scriptures are there none the less. They are a part of my soul, and I am not interested in having to constantly put “chapter and verse” in a ( ).
    There is nothing in the word of God that says I must do things in that style. When I am making comments concerning a topic, I do draw attention to the person, and their words, because it is important to keep it real. We are dealing with each other. What I have experienced with people who follow oneness doctrine, is their ability to to make a person into a “subject”, rather than deal with them as humans. Often, this leads to making God a subject rather than divine. Of the latter, I have a short fuse. I can banter back and forth, but from the deepest recesses of my soul dwells the Spirit of the Living God, and a burning wells up when when people try to turn him into a subject of discussion rather than the King Most High. With Jesusman, I explained many times about my unwillingness to discuss God’s position, but he kept on. I can engage others on matters of the bible, but when it comes to the divinity of the Lord, even the word “trinity” can not compare to his Matchless Beauty. Very rarely do I even use the term. I refuse to make Him a doctrine when he is the Living God. This is my position. I can talk about lots of other things scripturally, but I have no desire to go round and round with scriptures trying to prove myself or to try to win converts. It is the Lord who saves, not me. I am just a servant.
    We should hold each other in high regard, loving one another as we love ourselves, but correction, is also a part of loving. So if I see someone with too much adoration for man, regardless of him being a pastor or not, I will call him/her on it. That is not an attack, although it is percieved as one. There are certain things with in the “oneness” movement that I object to. And these are the things that I wish to address. Others may have a passion for debating the divinity of God, I do not, and I have made that clear. But being pushed on the subject shows a true lack of respect or love for my thoughts on the matter, and ends up “dehumanizing” me, making me also just a subject.

  139. Crimson Wolf said

    Eden said:

    “I have a short fuse. I can banter back and forth, but from the deepest recesses of my soul dwells the Spirit of the Living God, and a burning wells up when when people try to turn him into a subject of discussion rather than the King Most High. With Jesusman, I explained many times about my unwillingness to discuss God’s position, but he kept on.”

    We all have short fuses at times and that is OK. We are all human. Just don’t let the sun sit upon your wrath (if that is literal you might get scorched ;) )
    You say you explained to JesusMan that it wasn’t preferable to discuss the position of the Godhead but you must remember the title of this forum that drew him here . He was defending a very malicious attack on his Pastor and in return his defense was maliciously attacked. From there he reverted to scripture. Good choice I think.

    I appreciate your last comment very muc.

    You have alovely spirit.

    That says a lot about you.

    Blessings.

  140. Crimson Wolf said

    Charles,

    If I sent you my email would you come to my birthday party next week?

  141. Eden Hadassah said

    Crimson, my above post was directed at #134.

    Chazman,
    The stockmarket…
    I definately did not let that slip. The other day in a different post, I did comment on it. It was addressed to both you and John about capitalism and redistribution…
    However, it took twenty minutes to write, and when I went to post it, I didn’t realize that I hadn’t filled in the boxes where the name and email goes, and it was erased! I was frustrated to say the least! Anyway, when I have another twenty minutes or more in a row, I will comment again on it.

    Love
    Fruitcake Missy

  142. Crimson Wolf said

    Eden, I knew that. I am a bit perplexed.
    My last post was not meant to be critical.

    Sorry I wasn’t plain enough.

  143. Crimson Wolf said

    I was just thinking about a title for a thread I am starting.
    I just came up with it and wanted to know what everyone thinks about it.
    Here it is:

    “OK Trinity Liars Here Is The Best HISTORICAL Proof That Your Claims Are False”

    What do ya think?
    Is it too negative?

  144. Charles said

    Lets see, now that two My(s) and two Your(s); you’re getting there, though, not yet. Regarding your academic reclama: You said (and this setting the stage is for your benefit): “I finally got off of drugs and had a genuine experience with God and it was YEARS after I got saved that I finally went back and finished college.”

    Okay, you did say “finished,” and never once did you say you graduated. Do you remember our workshop on “implications.” But, probably not, seems that the drugs are still holding you back. A mind is a terrible thing to waste. And regarding your snide remark that: “I came as a donkey (according to you) with Jesus riding on my back.” Yep! You’re still a donkey by self-admission, and, if only Jesus were in your heart, instead of on your back, then, you would recognize the unnecessary ridiculousness and idiocy that escape your lips every time you open your piehole.

    Stop it, please…..you have me in stitches. One more note from you and I’m going to pass it around my office. Shoot, it is senseless that I have all of the fun and not share.

    U-R-O-VER-UR-HEAD!

    Chas

  145. Eden Hadassah said

    Crimson,
    I didn’t maliciously attack him.
    He decided to give the pastor’s credentials instead of staying on topic. As I said earlier I didn’t read the article, and He didn’t refute anything. What I did enjoy though, was seeing Dr. Curis come himself and comment.
    That is where the discussion should have ended on the topic at hand.
    I am not sure if Job wrote the article or if he just posted it, but he also made his position clear. So the parties actually involved, (the one posting the article and the one it was about)
    made their points. I don’t have to defend Job, he is far better at defending his comments, and I would do him an injustice if I even tried to defend his words or position. He is far more knowledgable then I.
    He is not above reproof, and there has been many times that regulars have “called him” on a matter. He has no problem admitting he made a mistake if in fact one was made. The same goes for this thread.

  146. Crimson Wolf said

    Charles,
    Does this mean you’re not coming to my birthday party next week?

  147. Crimson Wolf said

    Charles?

  148. Crimson Wolf said

    I didn’t get anything last year?

  149. Crimson Wolf said

    …Charles?

  150. Crimson Wolf said

    You didn’t go to college did you Charles?

    You put a postriculation before a postuplatory in your sentences.

  151. Eden Hadassah said

    Crimson,
    You can use that title if you wish. It wouldn’t draw me to your site though. Nor would it make it true.
    There was another title that drew me to the site, I gave my thoughts on the matter, and decided to stay. I have enjoyed alot of people that have come on, and the regulars too.
    I am sure that if you wanted to make that your title, I guess in some strange way you would be emulating Job.

  152. Crimson Wolf said

    Now getting back to God…I have changed my stance on the Oneness issue.

    I now blieve, not in one, not in two, but in seven.

    That’s right, seven.

    By divine posticulatry revelation I came upon this scripture:

    Rev. 5:6 “the seven spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.”

    Also that same scripture tells me Christ looks a WHOLE LOT DIFFERENT then the pictures I have seen of him!!!
    That is of course if we are to take all of this literally as has been sugested by some in these postings)

    Seven Gods!
    One problem…am I a Seveness or a Seveninity?

  153. Crimson Wolf said

    I was just kidding, Eden.

    You are sweet.

  154. Eden Hadassah said

    Chaz…
    Chapter 9!
    ;)

  155. Crimson Wolf said

    Charles i am just kidding around with you.
    Your posts are very articulate and you present some very profound yet simple points.

    Forgive me folks if I have offended anyone but when backed into a corner eevn a donkey will kick ;)

  156. Charles said

    Hey Missy

    You do realize that my closing comments about the markets and exchanges (in another post) were not critical, nor intended to be critical, in any way. Shucks, who knows, you might even cause me to change my opinion, though, I doubt it cuz I’m as stubborn as -Crimson- I mean a donkey.

    More importantly, you and I are almost at the point where we can now use “one” brass knuckle instead of “two.” Thing is…I don’t see the market as bringing mankind down (at least down further than we’re headed already; in a supped-up downward spiral, and without any help from the markets). AND, it appeared to me that you were more critical towards one exchange more so than others, and it wasn’t the U.S. exchanges. The basis for my contentions are: 1) a majority of the masses do not trust the markets 2) a majority of those do not tinker in the markets and 3) playing the markets is a fairly sophisticated endeavor that require adequate understanding, if, one desire a Los Vegas casino chance of coming out of a market experience without having their underwear ablaze.

    Granted, the fact that many financially well-heeled global companies and institutions,…. well their financial futures are in deed, their market viability are tied to the markets in very meaningful ways. That is not to say that because their financial life’s blood is connected to the market; that they (the companies) will drag the masses into this morass because their 401(k)s and other retirement plans are so deeply entrenched in and influenced by market(s) play. Granted further that this might appear to be the case, however, past financial and economic casebook studies indicate that companies and institutions are more likely to suffer and even fail when market conditions go south. People do not come out of such episodes totally unscathed, as the 1929 and subsequent market crashes have attested.

    Granted further; global markets that have less experience and savvy, often-times becomes more involved in the markets than is advisable for a number of reasons; which suggests that one day, over involvement in the markets may very well come back in ways that are detrimental to their respective populace. But this too, have market corrections mechanisms, if even at the expense (of) other countries, resulting in market stressors irrespective of whether those countries are active and involved in the markets or no.

    You, me and others have reason to be concerned, however, I do not believe the markets, be they bear or bull, will be the instrument by which cataclysmic events,(fore-told in the Bible) will be ushered in. I’m interested in your take.

    In Christ,

    Charles

  157. Eden Hadassah said

    How can anyone be backed into a corner in this place? geez, now I feel like Morpheous!

    I am not offended, yet you continue to mock the divinity of God…why?
    Can you see that you are doing it? What glory does it bring to the Lord? There is no “lighten up” on that matter. But in doing so, you make your own words of no effect, and show me that you have no regard for his word, nor the fact that he is way beyond even the seven spirits of God. How truly grievous it is for you to make a joke of Him, and then to say you were just kidding.

  158. Eden Hadassah said

    Charles,

    I like what you said, and I will respond…I promise.
    I am right in the middle of typing up some things for my husband in preparation of this weekend. I come on when I take a break. As soon as I am done with my task, I will give you my full flavored response. The sweet, the salty, the bitter, the oily and the astringent. (Can you gather that I am typing up something for his cooking preparations?)

    Talk to you soon.

  159. Charles said

    Crimson:

    Reference your 150; I seek neither canonization or beatification, however, you have convinced me that you wouldn’t know the difference.

    Regarding your 146: Nope. Don’t think I will. I have a sneaky suspicion that you would try to serve ME! Had I not served you first, like now.

    Regarding your 152, I think, I loose count; but you asked: “One problem…am I a Seveness or a Seveninity? Nope, just still a donkey.

    Crims, the beatings you take and the lengths you’re willing to go for a beatdown, are truly astounding to say nothing of inhuman. Truly you amaze me.

    Charles

  160. Charles said

    Okay, I look forward but don’t rush. HEY I’M GETTING OFF EARLY BECAUSE OF WEATHER ALERTS :)

    Check the weather before your husband heads out. Talk with you tonight. Be Blessed

    Charles

  161. Crimson Wolf said

    When I said I was kidding I was referring to your reply about my comment about starting a blog called “OK, Trinity liars.”

    My reference to Seven God’s was sardonic in a literary sense.

    Now I do not consider my comments to be any more irreverent then calling Oneness’ “LIAR”, “DECEIVER”, comments such as “LIKE JEHOVAH”S WITNESSES”, “LIKE MORMONS”, comments about Oneness of the Godhead like “JESUS MUST HAVE BEEN TALKING TO HIMSELF”, “I GUESS JESUS WAS A PARANOID SCHIZOPHRENIC WITH MPD”, etc.
    (By the way, Jesus didn’t think that was funny)

    When I criticize the Trinity position I am referring to the two individuals in the Trinity that I honestly feel DO NOT EXIST!!!!
    To me to add these extra “people” which the Roman Catholic Church invented in the fourth century (by borrowing from Plato, Philo, and the Mystery religions) is mockery of God. Why is it OK to attack Oneness but mockery to attack Trinitarianism?

    Are you coming to my birthday party, Eden?

  162. Crimson Wolf said

    Charles,

    It takes two humans to make a donkey.

    I am the head.

    What are you?

  163. Trent said

    Crimson Wolf,

    You are quite sharp, very witty, knowledgeable,and downright brilliant at times. BUT THAT WONT GET YOU INTO HEAVEN!

    A revelation comes by the spirit and NOT by the wisdom of man.
    The wisdom of man is FOOLISHNESS with God.

    What IF you are wrong and the Trinitarians are right? What then?

  164. johnkaniecki said

    Crimson,

    The Seven manifold Spirit of God. 12357 the first five prime numbers. Add up 666. Both sums of digits and you will get eighteen. 4 and 6 are omitted from God’s numbers because they are redundant. The devil chooses all sixes because he likes to be the most powerful. Very, very, very poor strategy.

    Now you have God 1,2,3. Father, Son, Spirit.

    The seven Spirits, 1,2,3,5,7. The two of the three is one of the seven. The three of the three is two of the seven. The two of the seven Spirits has all of the seven in it.

    If your good at music imagine chords and notes.

    Crimson, feel free to ask any question you have of me. Oh and the seven Spirits have names.
    1 Jesus
    2 John
    3 Jack
    4 Joel
    5 Jarvis
    6 Jeff
    7 Jim.

    These are the seven J’s as oppossed to the five L’s.

    Love,

    John

    And please don’t have me lecture everyone about being gentle and polite and nice. Its such a turn off that I don’t feel like blogging. Also Crimson please don’t make successive multiple entries. What that does is put your name up all on the new entries and makes it very difficult to follow other comments.

    Love again,

    John

  165. Charles D. said

    Crimy to answer your question which is: “Charles, It takes two humans to make a donkey. I am the head. What are you?”

    I am the person that first notified you that you were a donkey un the first place. You have accepted that fact with grace, laid claim to it, and have been perfectly happy to demonstrate the fact that you are one. Now, please forgive me if I ignore you until at least Monday. School is out for the weekend.

    Besides, more profitable use of my timr will be made speaking with my sister. You will have your hands full wrestling with Satan. Bye now.

    Be Careful,

    Chas

  166. Crimson Wolf said

    You misunderstand…
    I am a Democrat.

  167. Crimson Wolf said

    If such a doctrine of the Trinity were indeed so important to the early Church one would expect to find plenty of references and teaching in the scripturs about it. Yet NONE exist.
    Yes, I am certainly aware that there are references in scriptures some have in retrospect construed to be “hinting” at the Trinity yet one would expect much more.

    A doctrine such as the Trinity would have raised much commotion with the monotheistic Jews and one would expect to find multiple apologetics in defense of the Trinity from the Apostles. Yet the scriptures are strangely silent of such.
    HOWEVER…there are MANY objections to Christs deity:
    “Thou being a man makest thyself God”
    Thomas said to Christ “My Lord and my God.”
    “He that hath seen me hath seen the Father”
    ” A child is born..a son is given..his name shall be called..Mighty God…everlasting Father..Prince of Peace”
    Just as we would expect were Oneness the proper doctrinal stance.

    One last question: Dr. Ward mentioned Karl Barth. Does anyone know anything about him or his teaching on the Godhead.
    Thank you.

  168. Eden Hadassah said

    Crimson,
    #114… This is as far down the road past the second mile that I can go with you.
    And I would love to come to the birthday party, and sit at the kiddie table too! I love puppies!
    I wouldn’t be too much stock in being sardonic…it is one or two degrees worse then sarcastic, which as we all know means to “tear the flesh.” But then again, if you have chosen to use the word “wolf” in your screen name for that purpose, then I guess it suits you.
    Have a good night Crimson.
    Love
    Cupcake

  169. Diane said

    Hello Crimson Wolf, thank you for staying around. I haven’t met many oneness believers, but I must say I appreciate how you treat people who disagree with your beliefs with respect.

    I have a question that may have already been answered in an earlier comment, but I clicked on “recent comments”, and came in towards the end, so I apologize if you’ve already addressed this earlier. My question is, if Jesus and the Father are the same Person/Being then how is it that Jesus asked “My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?” (Mark 15:34)

    Thank you

    In Christ

  170. Diane said

    John, 1 is not a prime number.

    love,

    Diane

  171. Jesusman said

    “My question is, if Jesus and the Father are the same Person/Being…”

    Oneness doctrine does not teach this. That is “Jesus Only” doctrine to which neither I nor Dr. Ward adhere. For the umpteenth time THE FATHER IS NOT THE SON; THE FATHER IS IN THE SON

    I must say thank you to all who have participated in this discussion, especially to those who have attacked and slandered the people of God. Bro Ward mentioned y’all in tonight’s very powerful message. He reminded me that you’ve given us a reason to rejoice. We must be doing something right. Matthew 5:11 Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.
    12Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.

  172. Eden Hadassah said

    Jesusman,
    Your pastor should know better then to gossip in church during a sermon!
    Once again, I think you have gotten the scripture wrong.
    What has happened in this thread resembles nothing of persecution or reviling. You have no concept what so ever of true persecution if you think this was bad.
    If you would like to know what true persecution is, check out
    the website for The Voice of the Martyrs.
    Then you will have some sort of understanding of what the Lord was talking about.

  173. Crimson Wolf said

    On post #163 Trent said :

    “Crimson Wolf,
    You are quite sharp, very witty, knowledgeable,and downright brilliant at times. BUT THAT WONT GET YOU INTO HEAVEN!
    A revelation comes by the spirit and NOT by the wisdom of man.
    The wisdom of man is FOOLISHNESS with God.
    What IF you are wrong and the Trinitarians are right? What then?”

    My answer to Trent is :

    If I am right and YOU are wrong…you are in trouble.

    But if YOU are right and I am wrong…I still win.

    How is that? you ask.

    IJohn 2:23 says “Whosoever denieth the Son, the same HATH NOT THE FATHER; but he that acknowledgeth the Son HATH THE FATHER ALSO.”

  174. Crimson Wolf said

    In response to # 168,

    I was hoping you would get me a puppy for my birthday.
    If you can’t make my party just send it in the mail.

    I was born a wolf, blackened by sin, shapen in iniquity,
    but when I met Christ I was washed clean in his crimson blood.

    I am still a wolf by nature but as long as I am under the blood I will never be able to run with the pack again.

  175. Crimson Wolf said

    Diane asked in post #169″ :
    “My question is, if Jesus and the Father are the same Person/Being then how is it that Jesus asked “My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?” (Mark 15:34)”

    My response:

    I never really understood this myself until Dr. Ward taught on it. It is really very simple. Often times when in distress I quote scriptures from the book of Psalms. Many people do since the Psalms are well suited for expressing our deepest griefs. When Christ was on the cross he quoted Psalm 22:1 “My God, My God, why hast thou forsaken me? Why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring.”

  176. Crimson Wolf said

    Comment on post # 172

    Eden, It doesn’t sound like gossip to me. It sounds like he responded to a public attack on his character by making a public statement that he was rejoicing when people spoke evil of him.
    Also persecution is persecution whether someone is slandering you or cutting your head off. As a matter of fact the TONGUE can hurt worse and cause more damage then the sword (James 3:6-8)

  177. Crimson Wolf said

    Charles, Please forgive me. You asked me civilly not to make multiple posts and I did it again.

    There were so many Posts I felt need responded to.

    I will try to constrain myself more in the future.

    Ps
    Don’t send me a puppy for my birthday…Eden is getting it for me. Could you give me a Kitty Cat?

  178. Jesusman said

    “If you would like to know what true persecution is, check out
    the website for The Voice of the Martyrs.”—E.H.

    If you would like to know what true persecution is, you should research the history of God’s True Apostolic Church down through the ages. Being burnt alive with green wood for as prolonged and painful a death as possible is what Michael Servetus had to face (by Protestants) for denying the trinity doctrine. This is the most notorious of such incidents but there are untold thousands(millions?) of Oneness believers now wearing Crowns of Life after being faithful unto death at the hands of trinitarians. Before the Lord’s return, such persecution will continue and I hope you don’t find yourself consenting to our death while thinking you are doing God service. Jesus said His True church would be hated and persecuted, not that they would be doing the persecuting. There is much Oneness blood on the hands of Catholics and Protestants. The same cannot be said in reverse. The Oneness Church has never spilled trinitarian blood, because killing heretics was never commanded by our Lord. We just keep praying for them as they seek our lives. So according to Jesus, (in John 16:2
    They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service.)
    who are the true believers?

    Acts 24:14
    But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:

    Amen, Brother Paul

  179. Eden Hadassah said

    Jesusman and Crimson,

    I have to disagree with you once again. Imagine if I felt that you were attacking me. I don’t. And the both of you have made just as many counter responses to what I have said, yet I feel in no way persecuted. Until you have felt it in your flesh, nothing that the tongue can produce will ever compare. Nothing in this thread was persecution, so you may have to get a thicker skin.
    As far as the pastor rejoicing about being persecuted, nope…
    He wasn’t persecuted, but he did gossip, so even if he felt vindicated in some way, he made it of no effect.
    As far as church history goes, this is the problem that I have with people standing on doctrines. It doesn’t validate anything. There is only one truth present yesterday, today and tomorrow, and that is Christ and him crucified. I live here and now, and I can not build my faith on those of different doctrines. I can only build my faith according the Lord Jesus Christ. I follow him, so to me, as nice as it is to know what other believers went through, I keep my eyes on Yeshua, fixing my gaze on his beauty and majesty. He is worthy to be praised, not martyrs for a particular doctrine.

  180. Crimson Wolf said

    Post #179 said :
    “As far as the pastor rejoicing about being persecuted, nope…
    He wasn’t persecuted, but he did gossip”

    Dr. Ward was called “LIAR”, “DECEIVER”, his religion was mocked as a cult and compared to the following: “LIKE JEHOVAH”S WITNESSES”, “LIKE MORMONS”, comments were made about his precious beief in Oneness of the Godhead with comments such as “JESUS MUST HAVE BEEN TALKING TO HIMSELF”, “I GUESS JESUS WAS A PARANOID SCHIZOPHRENIC WITH MPD”, etc.
    Also notice the frequent attacking of other Oneness individuals in this forum calling them “liars”, calling these individuals names, putting them down, and saying things like : Liar, sports club jumping, insanity or reprobate mind, bring glory to yourself, blasphemy, heretic, etc.

    hmmm…publically calling someone a “LIAR” and “DECIEVER”,”REPROBATE”,”CULT”, “HERETIC”,etc……is O.K.

    YET when Dr. Ward publically rejoices because people are speaking ill of him then THAT is gossip.

    What’s wrong with this picture?

  181. johnkaniecki said

    Hello All,

    It seems to me we all got a problem. The rivers of water are in the rapids. Let us agree on the following.

    1. No name calling
    2. Be accepting and diplomatic.
    3. We are all brothers and sisters with the same goal. That goal is to spread the good news of Jesus all around the world. Let us endeavour to that end.
    4. I have learned from you all. The Wolf has a sharp mind and can quote scripture. But we must take an honest and true approach. You can’t have God as one then three and then seven. I don’t think you believe three different things do you? Say what you mean with conviction. I’m trying to learn from you, don’t make my studies a mockery.
    5. Remember some of the people are new to the blog. It took me a few months to fit in and I don’t think I have assimilated one hundred percent. Give the Wolf a little space and don’t attack, attack, attack. Hear what he is saying. Show him good listening techniques by listening to him.

    As it is this blog has digressed and has become adversarial. This is a very bad thing.

    Love,

    John

  182. Charles D. said

    Hey Missy!

    How’s it going Fruitcake? Did you check the weather? It not really bad right now. I will be here until Tuesday.

    I felt like being brave, so I drove here. We did not get the snow that was forecasted, however, they are still fortcasting the same but with ice. I’m not going to cry if I get snowed in; there is a Bar-B-Que joint in front of the Acadamy. Bar-B-Que is my friend. Hate ribs, love sliced and chopped and pulled. Might gain a pound but I will not be disappointed, depressed, or side-tracked. Did I mention Bar-B-Que is my friend?

    I am following your post – continue to defend the faith! Might dose off here and there but will otherwise begin my comments with information I want to provide about why I feel I was almost suckered in by you know who.

    Take care and don;t worry about responding right away. Be Blessed.

    Chaz

  183. Diane said

    Jesusman, I wasn’t aware that there was a differnece between Oneness and Jesus Only. I also want to say that I have admired your patient responses in the past but I just entered this discussion and I certainly didn’t intend any disrespect in my question to Crimson Wolf.

    Crimson and Jesusman, you are correct when you speak about verbal attacks that have no place in a disciple of Christ. We need to be reminded of that.

    Crimson, if I understand you correctly, you believe Jesus was merely quoting scriptures to Himself about how He felt forsaken?

  184. Crimson Wolf said

    Thank you very much, John, and I think your proposal is quite acceptable.

    Diane, I believe that Christ in the most desperate hour of his earthly existence had groanings that a human heart was most incapable of uttering. The scriptural cry of Psalms welled up from the inner resources of his soul as the flesh cried out to the spirit “Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?” (My God, My God, why hast thou forsken me).

    Christ was intelligent enough to know God had NOT forsaken him. He had already asked the cup to be taken from him and ultimately conceded to drink it as God’s will. He KNEW God had not forsaken him, but the human part of him FELT forsaken (just as we sometimes in our darkest hours do not FEEL saved, but have to stand by faith that we ARE) and this Psalm was his expression of that forlorn experience. He and every other Jew present knew this was from the Psalms.

  185. Diane said

    I agree with you that Christ spoke from the anguish of His soul; I believe the Psalm was prophetic, and not spoken from memory because it was well known.

    Jesus prayed ” I have glorified You on the earth. I have finished the work which You have given Me to do. And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was….”

    Here Christ reveals their relationship existed before the foundation of the world.

  186. Crimson Wolf said

    Diane, Most people are not aware of the differences between Jesus Only and Oneness. THIS is where much confusion comes in.

    Jesus Only Adherents believe that
    (1) ALL of God was contracted into and poured into the body of Christ. There was no God outside of that anointed one. When the Father spoke to Christ at his baptism they claim Christ was “throwing his voice” like a ventriloquist (no kidding, I have actually heard them say this). They claim when he prayed he was talking to himself. There was NO God outside of this human body of Christ.

    (2) Jesus Only teach that when Jesus died, that God died and ceased to be for three days.

    (3) Jesus Only DO NOT (usually) baptize in the name of Jesus Christ. They baptize saying these words “I baptize you INTO Jesus Only.”

    TRUE people of the name teach:
    (1) ALL of God was not and COULD not have been contracted and poured into the human body of Christ. Had this happened the universe would have exploded into chaos or even ceased to exist. Every demon in hell would have been free to do as he pleased. Jesus name people believe that there are THREE simultaneous manifestations of one God. The Father is an invisible, omnipresent(not pantheistically speaking, however), all powerful being incapable of looking upon. The expressed mind of the Father (which is the WORD) was manifest in flesh and begotton as the Son of God. This Son said “My Father is GREATER then I” (Trinitarian doctrine teaches the Father, Son,& Holy Spirit are CO-EQUAL). Christ wept, was hesitant to continue in the Garden, etc. After this Son was resurrected the Spirit of God returned as the Holy Ghost in order to dwell within and empower the people within his Church. There are THREE simultaneous manifestations of ONE God and one God only.

    (2) God did NOT die. Had God ceased to exist the world would have ceased to function.

    (3) NO man can baptize anyone INTO Jesus. We are baptized INTO the body by the Holy Ghost. We are to be water baptized in his NAME…the name of Jesus Christ (Acts 2:38).

    Not all Jesus name people baptize INTO Jesus. Many baptize in Jesus name, Lord Jesus Christ, etc., (and some baptize “in the name of the Father, Son, & Holy Ghost, in the name of Jesus”).

    Many (VERY many) within the Oneness movement are unconsciously Jesus Only. (Please note that in the early days of Pentecost in America that Jesus Only had a WHOLE different meaning then it has come to mean today). There are fewer that are truly “Oneness” in the scriptural sense.

    We believe in one God, baptism in the name of Jesus Christ, and receiving the Holy Ghost with the evidence of speaking in other tongues as the Spirit gives the utterance.

    Historical records prove time and time again that this was the original teachings of the early Church. Anything outside of this is true heretical doctrine.

  187. Crimson Wolf said

    CORRECTION:
    In post #186 in the fourth paragraph Up from the bottom I MEANT to write:

    “Not all JESUS ONLY people baptize INTO Jesus. Many baptize in Jesus name, Lord Jesus Christ, etc., (and some baptize “in the name of the Father, Son, & Holy Ghost, in the name of Jesus”).”

  188. johnkaniecki said

    Crimson,

    Hello and glad you are well.

    Some thoughts. Jesus said “I go to the Father and the Father is greater than I.” John 14:28. So let us knock off that co equal category on that statement alone. The context makes it clear what Jesus means.

    I look at the Three in One as different manifestations of Love. God is a complex thing.

    Wolf, please give me your view. I have a strong desire to learn and I acknowledge that you have a great knowledge of scripture. But let me warn everyone, the problem in this world is not ‘not knowing scriptures.’ A deeper problem is ‘not understanding scriptures.’ The deepest problem we have is ‘not living the scriptures.’

    Love,

    John

  189. Crimson Wolf said

    John, Dr. Ward’s comments in Post # 47 above is an excellent description of the Godhead. He touches on Church lineage in post # 75.

    Here was the doctrinal difficulty in the first few centuries:

    1) The churches believed Jesus was to be worshipped.
    2) Only God could be worshipped so Jesus must be God.
    3) There can only be one God.

    The churches then began to ask themselves HOW they could reconcile the abovementioned differences.

    First a variant form of Modalism was accepted. Then came Arianism. Gnosticism introduced docetism and various other teachings on the person of God. To combat these heresies the Church began formulating what was to later develop in the fourth century as the Trinity. They said God was a separate person, Jesus was a separate person, and so was the Holy Ghost (The Holy Ghost was not part of the Trias until later . At first there was only debate over Father and Son.) Now here were three persons. The Church believed each should be worshipped..but LO this meant they worshipped three Gods! No problem! Two Eastern Orthodox theologians perfected the theology by keeping the three separate YET they were of one substance. Viola! The Trinity!

    Had they relied more on scripture noting that God was a spirit, invisible, seen only through the image of Christ, they would have arrived back to the Oneness theology of three manifestations of one God.

    Three manifestations is a PERFECT theology. It is scriptural and it bypasses all of the inherent problems involved in trying to explain a convoluted philosophy of how three people can be one. It acknowledges THREE but denies three PERSONS. The Father and the Holy Ghost are SPIRIT and do not fall within the description of “Person.” The only “person” of the Godhead is Christ. He is all you will ever behold of God. However this does not eliminate the Father…it just changes and elevates the ordinary description of him. To call the omnipotent, omnipresent Father a “person” confines him and lowers his true being.
    It makes him a “man in the sky.” It forms a picture of a gray haired old man sitting beside his younger looking son. I believe the true picture I will see when I get to heaven is Jesus Christ sitting upon the throne with the glory of the Father and Holy spirit emanating through his glory as bright as the noon day sun.

    Please review Dr. Ward’s description in Post # 47 above.

  190. Crimson Wolf said

    The omnipotent, omnipresent, SPIRIT which we call the Father is all powerful and all-knowing. The buffer between man and God was the Logos, the Word, the expressed Mind of God. This Logos came in flesh. ALL of the Father was not “squeezed” into this anointed Son. The All-knowing omniscience of the Father was not all within the Christ as he walked the earth. There were things that Christ did not know that the father DID (”But of that day and hour no man knows, not even the angels of heaven, NOR THE SON, but the Father alone.” Mark 13:32. So much for the Trinitarian co-equal)

    As a man Jesus asked for the cup to pass him while in Gethsemene.
    As God he said “I am.”

    As a man he ate fish and bread.
    As God he multiplied the fish and bread.

    As a man he walked along the shores of Galilee.
    As God he walked ON the sea of Galilee.

    As a man he cried for his friend Lazarus.
    As God he said “Lazarus , Come forth!”

    The concept of three simultaneous manifestations of God was well understood by the mid-eastern mind. The Western mind could not comprehend it and tried to work out some mathematical way three could be one.

    The scripture is the final authority.

  191. Diane said

    Crimson, thanks for that explanation. So would the Oneness belief be that Jesus didn’t exist as the Son before Bethlehem?

    Jesus said “And now, O Father, glorify Me (The SON) together with Yourself, with the glory which I (The SON) had with You (The FATHER) before the world was…” (John 17:5)

    Christ reveals their Father Son relationship existed before the world was.

    “For I (The Son) have come down from Heaven, not to do My (The Son) will, but the will of Him (The Father) Who sent Me.” (John 6:38)

    Christ reveals that it was HE and not the FATHER that came down from Heaven.

    Then God said “Let US make man in OUR image according to OUR likeness”

    The Father Son and Holy Spirit are at work in creation and throughout history.

    I do believe all who are convicted of the Holy Spirit, repent, and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ have eternal life; the baptism of the Holy Spirit is for empowerment for the spread of the gospel and holy living and is followed by signs, with the gifts and fruit of the Holy Spirit being the evidence. I know we disagree, but you have been a very gracious example to me. Thank you.

  192. johnkaniecki said

    Crimson,

    Hello and thanks for those referrences. I today, two thousand years later, am learning implications and teachings that Jesus has spoken of. I have no new scripture but new knowledge and wisdom. For exmaple with prohphecy I can now understand the time for God to act is now. Why? Nuclear weapons give us the capability for man to destroy himself. While the bubonic plague and other extreme circumstances have pointed to the END, they were not. But now with a cool, rational even scientific mind I can say nuclear weapons are a definite sign that the time prophecized for God to act is near. The state of Isreal coming into existance is another one. I see God’s nature is to allow man to fall into sin and then bring punishment. This punishment causes man to repent. (Look at Isreal and Babylon.) Yet this process can’t be repeated if we all blow ourselves up. We know from scripture that God is going to set up a thousand year reign on Earth, or at least we can agree on that Jesus will come for the saved. If nothing else this delays the events of a nuclear war.

    Saying all this I must reject the lack of historical evidence against the three or one point of view. This is a rejection either way, pro or con. (I would need to reread your blogs to remember your positions. I will reread the blogs as they were excellent and informative. They also cited the necessary blogs by numbers.) Recall the gospels were written years later, as were Paul’s letters and the book of Revelation. If Revelation does as I believe end scripture then it would take some time to learn the implications. You may have historical proof that none of these things weren’t discussed but that lack of discussion is not evidence that its not true.

    Now allow me to ask the most important question. Why are we so concerned about this? What are the implications? How will it change our thinking or our way of life?

    Jesus and the Spirit are very simple for me to understand. The Father is so far beyond my comprehension I can’t imagine Him at all. Sometimes I just have to keep my eyes focused intently on Jesus to weather a storm. If you have ever been locked up in a psychiatric ward then perhaps you could relate to my experience.

    Crimson you have gave me an excellent answer and I see the sincere attribtues in your answers. Notice how some bloggers get the weekends off.

    Love,

    John

  193. Crimson Wolf said

    Obviously Christ could not be a begotten Son until he was begotten. He was conceived of the Holy Ghost and born of a virgin just two thousand years ago.

    This does not mean he did not exist before this because “in the beginning was the Word, the Word was with God and the Word was God” Jn 1:1. Christ was not a “human Son” as such BUT he was what theologians call a Theophany This is derived from the Greek theophania, theo (God), and phainein (to show forth), meaning “appearance of God”,

    Read Gen 3:8 and Gen 16:7-14. The scriptures tell us that initially it is an ANGEL which appears to Hagar, however it then says that GOD SPOKE DIRECTLY to her, and that SHE SAW GOD AND LIVED (Gen 16:13).

    In Gen 22:11-15,the scripture states explicitly that it was the ANGEL OF THE LORD speaking to Abraham (Gen 22:11). However, the angel addressing Abraham utters the words of GOD IN FIRST PERSON (Gen 22:12).

    In both of the previous examples, although it is an angelic FORM or IMAGE or MANIFESTATION that is present, the VOICE OF THE INVISIBLE GOD was speaking. This was a manifestation of God Himself.

    A similar case to present would be Moses and the burning bush. Initially Moses saw an ANGEL in the bush, but then proceeds to have a direct conversation with GOD HIMSELF (Ex 3).
    It was an angelic appearance (for want of a better phrase ) of God.

    So God manifested Himself through his Logos as a Theophany in the Old Testament and as A Son, God manifest in the flesh (ITim. 3:16) in the New Testament.

    And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the SON of man which is IN HEAVEN.Jn. 3:13

  194. Crimson Wolf said

    EDEN,

    To answer your question about God being or not being a liar concerning whether or not Moses saw God PLEASE READ THE ABOVE POST # 193

    Thanx

  195. Jesusman said

    Crimson,

    You are a distinguished scholar of the faith and your last few posts illustrate the best explanation of the Nature of the Infinite God that can be given by finite man. Kudos. And BTW, have we met? Do you attend Bro. Ward’s church either in Columbus or Lancaster, OH?

    Diane,
    I apologize, not knowing you hadn’t seen my defense of the Doctrine earlier.
    Your parentheses cannot be inserted into Scripture being intellectually honest. Let’s look at post #191:

    (My comments are in [])

    “So would the Oneness belief be that Jesus didn’t exist as the Son before Bethlehem?”
    [Yes, although He did exist as the WORD before Bethlehem(Actually Nazareth. It was at conception that the Word was made flesh). He existed in the mind of God. The WORD became the SON at the Incarnation.]

    “Jesus said “And now, O Father, glorify Me (The SON)[YES] together with Yourself, with the glory which I (The SON)[NO, THE WORD] had with You (The FATHER) before the world was…” (John 17:5)
    Christ reveals their Father Son relationship[No, God/His Word relationship] existed before the world was.”

    ““For I (The Son)[The Word] have come down from Heaven, not to do My (The Son)[Yes!] will, but the will of Him (The Father) Who sent Me.”)[If the three are one in total unity and agreement, why do the wills of Jesus and His Father disagree in the garden?] (John 6:38)
    Christ reveals that it was HE[The Word] and not the FATHER that came down from Heaven.”

    Then God said “Let US make man in OUR image according to OUR likeness”[God counseling with His own will, like when David says "Bless the Lord, Oh my soul, and all that is within me, Bless His Holy Name" or the rich man who told his soul to "eat drink, and be merry", or when I'm talking to myself and I say "Let's(let us) go" or "Let's do this."]
    The Father Son[Word(1st John 5:7)] and Holy Spirit are at work in creation and throughout history.

    I appreciate your gentle demeanor and respect you’ve shown to those with whom you disagree. This shows true fruits of the Spirit. There are those on here who claim to be Spiritual, but their fruit is rotten to the core. May the Lord Bless and keep you and open up ALL OUR EYES to His Truth. In Jesus Name, Shalom.

  196. Crimson Wolf said

    It is of supreme importance to understand the nature of God.

    Understanding HIM is more important then understanding anything pertaining to my “self.”

    Most people see him as a “old man in the sky” and TOTALLY miss his majestic omnipresence, omnipotence, and omniscience. They fail to KNOW the Father (the exact charge they erroneously aim at US). Understanding the Godhead brings understanding of the FATHER.

    Also it solidifies our belief that we worship but ONE God.

    In addition OTHER scriptures become plainer, ie, Christ says to baptize in the NAME of the Father, Son, & Holy Ghost. Peter turns around in Acts 2:38 and tells them to baptize in Jesus name. Contradiction? No. Peter now had the Holy Ghost and could understand the PARABLE of Matthew 28:19. The spirit revealed that Jesus Christ meant Yahweh Savior the Anointed One ( Notice the name of the Father: Yahweh, the Son : Savior, and the Holy Ghost: Anointed, all in one name). The name of the Father (Yahweh) was IN the name of the Son.

    These revelations are the product of learning under Dr. Ward.

    In conclusion it inspires and melts the depth of my heart to know God did not send someone else to die for me…He came Himself!!!

  197. Crimson Wolf said

    JesusMan, these teachings came from Dr. Ward.

    However they actually have little to do with Dr. Ward because they ARE IN THE SCRIPTURES for ANYONE to read.

  198. Diane said

    Jesusman, you believe Messiah is referring to “Logos” and I believe He is referring to Himself as “Son” (John 17:5), you also believe our Heavenly Father is referring to His Word when He said “Let Us make man in Our image” I believe He is referring to His Beloved Son and Holy Spirit.

    Even though we disagree, I respect the time you’ve spent trying to help others understand what you really believe and why. I pray we continue to love one another that the world may know we are His disciples. Shalom

  199. Crimson Wolf said

    Let me clarify this for you , Diane.

    Jesus WAS referring to HIMSELF.

    What we are saying is the HUMAN SON OF MAN did not exist until Bethleham

    Before that He was the Logos, the Word.

    In both instances he is the MANIFESTATION OF ONE GOD.

  200. Crimson Wolf said

    JesusMan is saying that Christ was praying the following:

    “And now, O Father, glorify Me (The SON , born here on earth) together with Yourself, with the glory which I ( when I was the Word, or Logos , BEFORE I ever became a human born Son) had with You (The FATHER) before the world was…” (John 17:5)

  201. Diane said

    Crimson, you believe that Messiah prayed about the time in His relationship with the Father when He was “verbal Words spoken”.
    (John 17:5)

    If that is what you firmly believe, I respect you, though I respectfully disagree. I like what Jesusman suggested – may the Lord open up ALL OUR EYES to His truth.

    I will be pretty busy spending time with my Grandson in the upcoming days and might not have the opportunity to comment, but I feel that I have met 2 friends. I hope you leave this feeling the same way. Shalom (thanks Jesusman… I haven’t said that in a while)

  202. Charles D. said

    Eden, my fruitcake,

    Sometimes I honestly believe God allow two (and even more) people to get different takes of and meaning from a single message or source. Sometimes I believe that the condition of the receivers’ heart have much to do with it; ideally, there are sufficient lessons to be learned by all (edification).

    What I admire about your take is your assessment was somewhat innocent, refreshing, but fair. You act as if you believe “no matter what “her” intentions were, so long as you’re honest and above board, no harm will come as a result of you giving someone the benefit of the doubt. Again, admirable and true. I am from a different school of thought; one that is tempered by experiences, some too difficult to express. But not unlike treating cancer, I believe in cutting it out before it spread.

    I received a email after viewing several different posts with comments by our friend (you may have seen some, but, before the donnybrook she and I had – I had never seen the posts to which I refer). I opinions of our friend was colored by what I consider direct attacks and challenges. Her comments and our running dialogue were none too friendly and often times bordering on mortar attacks. “In your face and I don’t need no stinking, —— well you know her mindset. In some of the other posts I thought I detected a voices crying out and seeking. She stated that she had NO ONE to help her, especially, in answering her questions about the 10 Commandments and that she was honestly seeking answers. She said Job had refused to post her questions regarding the same. I fell for it and gave her my email address. Within hours I received an email
    and when I opened it, it was very apparent why her questions were not posted.

    The tone of the email was not that of one honestly seeking. Rather, it was a contest of spiritual wills and
    by time I got mid way through the email, what I believe to be unclean spirits dominated. It (I am purposely using “it” here) was accusatory, and compellingly void of fact. It had the effect of lifting up man while denying God. It used partially correct quotes made by historical figures; none of which had a single thing to do with the 10 Commandments. It listed the reaffirmation of the 10 Commandments infused with language from Exodus 34; then it made all sorts of allegations against God which I attribute to a total lack of knowledge of the Word of God, then stated the printed word out of context. It was Devlish and I cannot think of another word for my experience that night. If you’ve ever seen the movie Exocist, I felt as though I was on the actual set.

    You may have a different opinion but mine is as follows. At this time I don’t even believe her love of abused children is as she stated. I don’t believe her about the experiences she stated she had witnessed. I believe she KNEW she would capture the hearts of anyone that REALLY love children and that would be her “in.”
    Absolutely no sane person could write what she wrote, in both the posts and email, yet have a beneficent heart towards little. You know, if Satan was as ugly as the pictures man has devised and if he and/or his demon spirits approached mankind with calamity and total destruction in the forefront, then, everybody would run and he’d have a much tougher time getting to people/sinners. NO! He appeal to our (or what we preceive) more sensual appitites, tastes, visions, and even reality. Sex, Money, Instincts (that is our natural inclinations), Power, Greed, etc. Some instincts include a love for children; of course, God has embued mothers and to a degree women in general, a strong material instinct towards children.

    If my beliefs and assumptions are close to being correct, then, she should not be allowed in the same area code as children. And without saying a word directly to children, she pose a present and real danger to them for a number of reasons which I will discuss if you’re interested. My actions were to first pray, then, delete the email and what happened next, I will share with you after I hear back.

    Don’t feel obligated to answer right back. It has began to snow now so it will be day to day until I leave here.

    In Christ,

    Charles

  203. Crimson Wolf said

    Diane, Many times the scripture uses figurative descriptions of God that humans can understand. For instance the scripture which speaks of God covering us with his wings. Certainly we do not believe that God is like a big chicken with wings.
    Gods “Word” is not like my “word”. My word is the expression of my consciousness. God’s Word , as well as EVERY other part of God, IS consciousness.

    There is no denying that Christ IS the Word. John 1:1 says “In the beginning was the Word, the Word was WITH God and the Word WAS God.” It goes on to say concerning the Word “all things were made by Him and without Him was not anything made that was made.” The scriptures continue to say “the Word was MADE FLESH and dwelt among us.”

    If you go to Genesis you find that God spoke and the spoken Word created. The above verses plainly tell us that all things were made by this Word and that this Word became flesh and dwelt among us. This is undeniable scripture.

    This Word is NOT just a verbal, spoken, utterance that is the result of vibrating human vocal cords. THIS WORD IS GOD.
    It is the MANIFESTATION of the omniscient mind of God. It is the divine Logos. “In Him was life and the life was the light of men.”

  204. Crimson Wolf said

    Diane, In conclusion Christ was not a human born SON until he was born of a virgin. HOWEVER, he did indeed exist in the Old Testament and from the beginning as an angelic theophany, as the Word of God, the visible, audible expression of a Spirit that “no man can look upon and live.”

  205. Eden Hadassah said

    Charles,

    Here is what I see in her. I saw a “good” heart. This I say in terms of unregenerated natural love for children. My own paternal grandmother was like her in terms of the viewing the scriptures. My father accepted the Lord, and began to witness to her, and she actually picked up the bible and guess what she started reading? JUDGES! Can you image her discust, as she threw the bible down, and swore never to read that “piece of trash” ever again. This is the same woman, who “loved” her family, adored her friends, and loved the “status quo.” This is also the same woman, with such a “loving heart” that tormented me emotionally until the day she died! When I also accepted the Lord, and would come to visit, she would say things like, “How can you believe that trash, look at what is going on in the world…how can the God of the bible be true? Wouldn’t he be more powerful than that? Why would he allow so much suffering? AND WHY WOULD HE ALLOW ALL THAT FILTH TO BE PUT INTO WHAT IS CALLED “HOLY”? She was unable to even comprehend why God would allow the actions of sinful men and their crimes to be put into a book that is supposed to be “Holy” and yet sin dwells, and almost glorified on the pages. Regardless of her treatment of me, I treated her with love and respect, knowing that she would never again either read the scriptures, nor call on the name of the Lord, even in her distress. All she had left was my father and I, showing the love, grace and mercy of God in the midst of her unbelief. Her eldest son, my uncle, is and was an athiest. She clung to him like a god, and about a year after her death, he died too. He too had a “good heart”, loved his children and his family. He hated me beyond belief, yet loved my children more than life itself. (He started hating me when I refused to have an abortion after being raped. Turns out my aunt was raped as a teen ager, and my grandmother forced her to give the baby up. It was a deep wound that never was allowed to heal, and one that only my uncle and grandmother knew about. So when I refused to have an abortion, and then decided to keep the baby, there was an overwhelming amount of guilt on their part toward the pain that they put my aunt through. Then watching my daughter grow, their hatred towards me and my decisions grew stronger by the year.) As he died of cancer, both my father and I showed the love, grace and mercy of God to him. My father was with him on his death bed, and even as he slipped into death, he refused the Lord.
    A “good heart” is something that almost everyone has, but it never understands the goodness of God. It is natural love, which can be “loving”, cruel, vindictive, selfish, or “spiritual.” It bears no resemblence to the Heart of God. This is the state our friend was in. I have known people with this kind of heart, as with my family, who never accept the Lord or his goodness for their eternal soul, AND, I have known the other camp of people…those who feel that way, and at some point in their lives, the veil is lifted, and they become quite a sight to behold. Beautiful, radiant and full of the Love of God.
    You are right about her, as I have experienced the wrath of the “good heart” in my early years. I will await your other thoughts, I am interested to hear them.
    I need to go right now, but hopefully I will be on in a little while. I didn’t know it was snowing in Annapolis…I live north of Annapolis, and it is just raining here.

    Love,
    fruitcake missy

  206. Charles D. said

    Wow! What a potent piece. For sure it, once again, confirms what I have always known; i.e. that 2 or more people can get different takes from the same source. You might think I am strange by saying yours was somewhat uplifting to me as I read it. But truth be told. it was, and quite so.

    I total believe that God was dealing with you long before you think you accepted Him, one of the fruit of His work appears to me as your most difficult albeit right decision not to have an abortion. God Bless you.

    Now! You’ve said two things that; one I totall agree with and have enough experiences sufficient to write a couple of books and one I somewhat disagree with on first blush. They are:
    “good heart” is something that almost everyone has, but it never understands the goodness of God.” on this one I believ it requires a visitation of the Holy Spirit before they have a “good” heart. There are OT scripture that leads me to believe this, e.g., God s said: “they have hearts of stone, but, I will give them hearts of flesh.” Whereupon He would write the 10 Commandants, give them a natural conscienious, giving them the ability to know what is right and what is wrong.

    The below I totally agree and know to be true from a bevvy of personal experiences. It is a beautiful thing to actually witness someone accept the Lord Jesus Christ. Also, it is very good to be able to comfort a loved one who is worried about a new convert on the verge of death. I have some stories about this one.

    “those who feel that way, and at some point in their lives, the veil is lifted, and they become quite a sight to behold. Beautiful, radiant and full of the Love of God.”

    Have to run to a meeting now, after which I intend to visit church. Thank you for sharing, it has helped me more than you know right now.

    Okay, so the ground is green and brown……SUE me.

    Love,

    Charles

  207. Eden Hadassah said

    Thank you for your kind words…
    By “good heart”, I am pertaining to what the world views as “good” and reference the difference between “the good heart” and “the heart of God.” Of this there is a HUGE difference.
    The heart of God seeks to glorify and magnify all that is God, in holiness and praise, of this the “good heart” knows nothing of. The “good heart” as we have all experienced, is deceptive beyond belief, in that the intentions are always selfish and self serving. It is the “good heart” that will give someone something, but in their heart, resent the fact that they never got a “thank you,” or anything in return. AAAHHH the “good heart” at christmas time that sends christmas cards and keeps a record of who gave them one, so that next year they may send them “good wishes!” AND…heaven forbid that “good heart” be slighted and not recieve a christmas card, then next year one would be on the “bad heart” list and not recieve a card! This is the “good heart” way.
    I understand what you mean by heart of stone and a heart of flesh. Of these “good hearts” are still STONE, and will always be stone…others, are transformed by the love of God, but either way, the heart of God with in me, will continue to display his goodness and love regardless of their actions.
    They get the gospel anyway, with my life.
    However…when someone claims to be regenerated, and filled with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, and then decides to blaspheme his holy name…of this I must shake the dust. My grandmother and our friend never claimed to “know Him”, so for me, their offense, I over look. I give no credit to the evil one, although, we both know he is at work to keep them blind. Regardless of whether evil is at work or not, all must still be accountable for their own words and actions. I will not blame “beings” for such things. All must stand before the Lord of Hosts and give account for their lives and actions…this includes the judgment of Satan and his traitorous angels. People do enough evil of their own accord, and this is evidenced by their “good heart.” I am amazed by God, when he lifts that veil, and they proclaim…”I thought I was such a good person, but now I know that nothing I ever did was really good.” A “good heart” is the sickness of man, to which death comes eternal, but the one that would take upon himself the Heart of God, for him/her, they truly know and understand what real goodness is.

  208. Hi, Don’t know If I will get back to this one but I have had many discussions of this passage
    being a Oneness believer myself. Please allow me to give you our take on (John 17:5) The
    keywords to the passage are *Glorify* and *glory,* Some of the folks had the right idea and
    others in my Opinion just simply glossed over the passage.because they feel it highlights
    their doctrine of pre-existance of a so called “god the son” (No such thing in scripture.)
    a simple reading of the passage most(reformed and others) would consider Exagesis when it is
    no more than glossary reading, you can never Isolate a passage in a vaccum to come up with a
    doctrine, take for instance the passage from John 6:62.

    62: What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?

    Do you see the above passage? It seemingly goes right along with what you are saying in John
    17:5 does it not? Actually folks that is not the case at all from this passage, just about 11
    verses back Jesus reveals how he came from heaven and how he was “pre-existent”

    47: Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.
    48: I am that bread of life.
    49: Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead.
    50: This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.
    51: I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall
    live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of
    the world.

    Did you happen to catch from verse 51 what Jesus was saying? Allow me to Highlight it for you?
    Jesus just finished saying that;” he was the bread which came from heaven.” and the bread he
    would give, so that mankind may live was his flesh(Which came from heaven) friend, flesh can
    neither come from, or go there! Jesus was saying God the father provided the sacrifice from
    heaven.That is how he comes from heaven this is the key to every so called passage you belie