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TD JAKES HAS A GAY SON!

Posted by Job on October 23, 2007

Update: please see Does Running A Biblical Church Require Five Point Calvinism? and comment.

Gay Christian Movement Watch has it!

TD Jakes repositioning with Dr. Phil?

Some believe this is because one of his twin sons is gay. The young man was spotted at a black gay club in Atlanta during the popular 2006 MegaFest. One of the more recurrent search questions bringing people to GCM Watch is “TD Jakes’ gay son”, so there is considerable talk already out there. Reportedly, the young man has already told his father he is gay.”

What does this have to do with Jakes? After all, he is NOT responsible for the behavior of his son. I would NEVER claim this to be the case OR use this as something to attack Jakes. We ALL have to stand before God in judgment OURSELVES AS INDIVIDUALS, and the very fact that I have to answer to God one day for everything that I say and do is precisely why I would NEVER resort to such a cheap trick, let alone to spreading rumors or gossip which the Bible also explicitly calls sin. But where this DOES condemn Jakes is the shift in his ministry towards acceptance of homosexuality, and that includes interviewing the protege’ of the New Age witch Dr. Phil, who teaches that homosexuality is inherited, on his show and, according to Gay Christian Movement Watch, endorsing Dr. Phil’s opinions on TD Jakes own weblog: see his weblog entry. This direction has “earned” Jakes his own section on gay Christian movement watch: gcmwatch.wordpress.com/category/bishop-t-d-jakes. Now I first read about Jakes’ moving to the pro – homosexual side from the now regrettably banned Youtube user Ephesians511, but his increasing refusal to condemn homosexuality, his claiming that “God did not tell us how to deal with AIDS” on Nightline, and now his alignment with the “sodomy is biology” gay rights crowd confirms it!

Listen folks, this is no game. Jesus Christ is coming back, and this world is going to be judged and destroyed by fire. You folks that continue to defend these apostates (again, both Jakes and Robert Schuller have had heretic Dr. Phil on AT MINIMUM) are going to be counted like unto them and be destroyed in the lake of fire right along with them!

Update: Brother IndependentConservative goes even further than I do! So this makes me feel better about my thoughts that I MIGHT be doing something wrong by making this post.

  1. IndependentConservative Says:
    October 23rd, 2007 at 11:48 pm eHealtheland – Jakes son being a homosexual DOES have to do with Jakes directly and it DOES impact Jakes position in the church directly. Consider Gods guidelines given to man for church leaders, in particular:
    Titus 1:5-6 (King James Version)

    5 For this cause left I thee in Crete, that thou shouldest set in order the things that are wanting, and ordain elders in every city, as I had appointed thee:

    6 If any be blameless, the husband of one wife, having faithful children not accused of riot or unruly.

    This matters because TD Jakes has assumed a position of church leadership. This DISQUALIFIES HIM! His children are not faithful believers, one has been accused of unruly behavior. Homosexuality is an abomination and all the abominations noted in Leviticus 18 are still very much abominations before God. Sure all sin is sin, but not all sins are abominations.

    He has failed to rule his house well as noted in:
    1 Timothy 3:4-5 (King James Version)

    4 One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity;

    5 (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)

    And God gave these instructions for obvious reasons. Put up a man who has gay children and you’ll never get a leader who stands firm against behavior that is an abomination.

  2.  

  3. IndependentConservative Says:
    October 24th, 2007 at 9:35 am eHealtheland said:

    IndependentConservative: What of Samuel’s sons who turned against the faith? That was not held against Samuel. Please recall that God did not judge Eli because his sons were evil, but rather because “Eli restrained them not.”

    I’m not saying Jakes will go to hell because of the sins of his children, certainly not. Jakes will go the hell for his on sins. TD Jakes has taken the heresy noted in Acts 8:20 to levels beyond even what Simon attempted.

    Let’s keep in mind, my assertion is about QUALIFICATIONS FOR CHURCH LEADERSHIP. Not Old Covenant prophet status. 1 Timothy 3 was written for the church, not for Hosea. God told Hosea to marry a harlot because of the sins of Israel and even then that was not the standard. God told THE CHURCH to pick men who are blameless, of one wife, with children who are believers, not found engaging in unruly behavior. And certainly our yolk is easier and the burden lighter than the Mosaic law of the old covenant, although in many ways the law of grace and liberty is of a higher standard than Mosaic law, because we now must adhere to the highest order of love through Christ. We are not given an exception in 1 Timothy 3 for men who fail to rule their own house well and fail to have a family in subjection, because the man decided to marry a harlot or because the children are homosexual. And holding to this is far easier than what others had to hold to before Christ. If the man’s house is out of order because his wife is slutting around or his children are gay, HE’S DISQUALIFIED TO LEAD SAINTS TODAY. Jakes is viewed as a church leader on the NON-BIBLICAL standard of man, which is, “but he sounds good and look at all the people he draws in”

    The bottom line is this, either we uphold the standard God proclaimed through Christ via the Holy Spirit, as written by the hand of Paul or we don’t. If we uphold the standard, this alone disqualifies Jakes for church leadership, but we know there’s so much more.

  4.  

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261 Responses to “TD JAKES HAS A GAY SON!”

  1. Healtheland – Jakes son being a homosexual DOES have to do with Jakes directly and it DOES impact Jakes position in the church directly. Consider Gods guidelines given to man for church leaders, in particular:
    Titus 1:5-6 (King James Version)

    5 For this cause left I thee in Crete, that thou shouldest set in order the things that are wanting, and ordain elders in every city, as I had appointed thee:

    6 If any be blameless, the husband of one wife, having faithful children not accused of riot or unruly.

    This matters because TD Jakes has assumed a position of church leadership. This DISQUALIFIES HIM! His children are not faithful believers, one has been accused of unruly behavior. Homosexuality is an abomination and all the abominations noted in Leviticus 18 are still very much abominations before God. Sure all sin is sin, but not all sins are abominations.

    He has failed to rule his house well as noted in:
    1 Timothy 3:4-5 (King James Version)

    4 One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity;

    5 (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)

    And God gave these instructions for obvious reasons. Put up a man who has gay children and you’ll never get a leader who stands firm against behavior that is an abomination.

    • Tommie McNeil said

      The overwhelming majority of child molesters are heterosexual men, usually a family member or friend. The marriage rate for straight people is over 50% and 70 % of all Black children are born out of wedlock. Baby Daddy possible # 12 on Maury Povich is still not the real father. See a wonderful DVD called “For The Bible Tells Me So” by Daniel Karslake. Also read a book by a heterosexual minister named Robin Scroggs called “The New Testament and Homosexuality”. God knew about DNA from Alpha to Omega but it took man all these years to catch up with the Mind of God. Jesus had the inside track on God and never said a word about Gay people. We listen to lies on Sunday without any study of original Greek and Hebrew words. The original word for abomination meant ‘unclean’ as was pork, having sex with a woman during her cycle. Early man beleived the world was flat and that a man had a limited amount of sperm and wasted it upon penalty of death. Now we know different and that a baby is formed from Mom and Dad not planted in a woman as a seed in the groung. Exodus 21:7 gives instruction on selling one’s daughter into slavery. Slavery was acceptable as was vigilante stoning which will get you life in prison or lethal injection. Working on the Sabbath according one scripture equals death. The Bible is a wonderful book but must be viewed through the lense of culture, custom, history and original meaning of the words. Gay people do not just have sex. We are doctors, lawyers, teachers, welders and construction workers. We pay taxes and are somebody’s son, daughter, uncle aunt, mother, father. You want to fight against something type in Partial Birth Abortion and witness true horror. Straight people clean up your side of the street first. I am sorry about the Bishop’s son but the Bishop is not responsible. Be careful my good Christian friends. Hate and lies are really what Jesus despised. Be sure on Judgement Day you stand with the Lambs and not with the Goats.

      • Job said

        Tommie McNeil:

        So you are learning all sorts of cutting edge homosexual theology by following TD Jakes.

        “We listen to lies on Sunday without any study of original Greek and Hebrew words.”

        Wrong. Most seminaries and Bible colleges require several semesters in Greek and Hebrew. My own pastor majored in Greek as an undergraduate before entering seminary. I myself have a ton of Greek and Hebrew books and frequently use the original language feature on http://blueletterbible.org, and so do MANY Christians. If you visited this site regularly, you would see that we have discussions on Greek and Hebrew words all the time. You are a liar making false charges.

        “Early man beleived the world was flat and that a man had a limited amount of sperm and wasted it upon penalty of death.”

        Wrong. It was the Hellenists who believed that the world was flat. The Jews knew better, and there are several Old and New Testament verses that prove this. Christianity only adopted these false scientific notions when they replaced the Jewish mindset with pagan Hellenistic philosophy, exchanging Jesus Christ for Plato, Socrates and Aristotle. Man, you really are giving yourself over to lying demonic spirits aren’t you? And the thing about wasted sperm was only in reference to Onan because he refused to impregnate his dead brother’s wife because of his wickedness and selfishness. Have you even read the Bible?

        “Jesus had the inside track on God and never said a word about Gay people.”

        Wrong. Jesus Christ said that He came to fulfill the law, that the law was holy and good, and not a yod (OK expert in Hebrew, tell me what a yod is) would pass from the law until it was all fulfilled. So Jesus Christ did not remove homosexuality from being a sin in the Bible. Also, the apostles Paul and John reaffirmed homosexuality on the sin lists. Typical Satanic tactic of divide and conquer that he has been using ever since the Garden of Eden. You are attempting to divide Jesus Christ from both the prophets who spoke of Him and the apostles that passed on His doctrines.

        “The original word for abomination meant ‘unclean’ as was pork, having sex with a woman during her cycle.”

        Yes, for a man to insert his penis into a man’s anus where that man defecates, and to tear that man’s anus, allowing all sorts of pathogens and impurities (both from his sex partner’s penis and from that man’s own feces) to directly enter his bloodstream is the same as – if not worse than – eating poorly cooked pork and getting trichinosis or copulating with a woman during her cycle. You are aware that the average life expectancy of a man is 48 years? It is precisely because of all the diseases that they get from that sexual activity, which the Bible (both Old and New Testaments) refers to as men abusing each other.

        “Now we know different and that a baby is formed from Mom and Dad not planted in a woman as a seed in the ground”

        You evil man with a reprobate mind, the Jews have always known this. It is an analogy, a metaphor. If you would stop listening to these homosexual theologians and read so much as an introductory Bible commentary or theology book, you would understand the Jewish literary forms found in the Bible. The writers of the Bible knew that conception was the combination of a female ovum and male sperm. Were that not the case, the doctrine of the Incarnation would be impossible. And do you know when the doctrine of the Incarnation was first prophesied? In the Garden of Eden! “Genesis 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.” Now what on earth could the seed of Eve possibly refer to except her ovum? Don’t you realize that you are falling for the historic trap of atheists and scoffers, which is to distort Christian belief and the actual contents of the Bible?

        And please, quit prattling on about Old Testament law. Again, the New Testament repeatedly specifically condemns homosexuality. And unless you repent and change your wicked ways, on judgment day you will be counted as a fornicator, a liar on God and His Word, and an abuser of your own body and that of other men.

        “The Bible is a wonderful book but must be viewed through the lense of culture, custom, history and original meaning of the words.”

        As if you homosexuals were the first ones to start doing that. Don’t you know what the term SYSTEMATIC THEOLOGY means? Or BIBLICAL THEOLOGY? Or HISTORICAL THEOLOGY? You ignorant unlearned reprobate, don’t you know that Christian scholars have been studying these things since the early second century at minimum? Don’t you know that Christian missionaries are the ones responsible for most of the world having a written language? Don’t you know that the study of cultures and customs was first pioneered by Christian missionaries trying to take the gospel into foreign lands? Don’t you know that Christians were the ones who invented modern agriculture and our current economic and political systems? That Christians invented the modern university as well as the higher forms of music and art? So you homosexual activists honestly believe that no Christian either had a brain or bothered to use it until you slithered out from your slime pits?

        You honestly do not know better. You have no knowledge of the Bible, theology or history. You are the living proof of the Bible verse that states that professing yourself to be wise you became fools (Romans 1). You do not even have basic rudimentary knowledge of nature, let alone the Bible or spiritual things, because those things are corrupted and your vision and perception blurred by your decision to believe lies.

      • John Kaniecki said

        Brother Job,

        Hope you are well. Tommie, wish you are well too.

        Very good points Job. Jesus never said anything about rape either. Jesus never said anything about child molestation or incenese. This is relevant because all are sexual sins that the law condemns like homosexuality. So what conclusions can we draw?

        Tommie it is clear from Romans that Paul condemns homosexual sex. Read Romans chapter 1. So you are either saying the Bible is not the Word of God or that you as a man can go beyond what God or Paul has written and that you Tommie have more authority. I don’t think you have problems following the teachings of say 1 Corinthians 13 do you? You choose to ignore important scripture conviently and at your own peril.

        I do not wish to criticize you but to present to you what I understand from the Word of God. You may be a very moral man in many respects. But ‘good’ people don’t go to heaven. Only by the standard of the Bible, the Word of God are we to be judged.

        Love,

        John

        • Defenders of homosexual sin often cite the absence of a definitive statement by Jesus as proof that he did not condemn it. Silence is not sanction. Homosexuals falsely assume that because Jesus did not specifically reference homosexual lust as a sin that they therefore have license to practice their perversion. As a matter of fact, Jesus was not silent on the matter. Jesus did indeed refer to homosexual sin, although indirectly.

          In Mark 7:21 For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders.
          The Greek word is porneia.

          It means;

          1) illicit sexual intercourse

          a) adultery, fornication, homosexuality, lesbianism, intercourse with animals etc.

          b) sexual intercourse with close relatives; Lev. 18

          c) sexual intercourse with a divorced man or woman; Mk. 10:11,12

          2) metaph. the worship of idols

          a) of the defilement of idolatry, as incurred by eating the sacrifices offered to idols

          Jesus spoke of the heart of men, a heart capable of all manner of wickedness. He provided a list of sin. All of these things, according to Jesus, come from within the man, and defile (make spiritually and morally unclean) him.

          In this list was “fornications”. This includes homosexual sin, inasmuch as homosexuality is a form of fornication. Jude 7 identifies “fornication” (further described as “going after strange flesh”) as the sin that brought God’s judgment upon Sodom. When Jesus said “fornications” he included homosexuality!
          Jesus affirmed the writings of Moses as authoritative Scripture. On several occasions Jesus spoke of the Old Testament writings (including Moses’ writings and the law) as the Word of God. This means that Jesus affirmed the contents of those writings as true and authoritative, exposing homosexuality as iniquity and abomination, and a sin worthy of death. Therefore Jesus indirectly condemned homosexual behavior.
          The idea that the teachings of Jesus permit homosexual sin is a distortion of the truth. Jesus did include it under the umbrella of “fornications”, and sanctioned the teachings of Moses who condemned it.

          • Job said

            Rev Patrick Williams and John Kaneicki:

            Good to have you back! And excellent points. Yes, pornea is inclusive of homosexuality. It boggles the mind that these people refuse to acknowledge that the Person who said that even LOOKING LUSTFULLY at a woman that wasn’t your wife was a sexual sin would never have endorsed homosexuality. But my main point is how the homosexual theologians ignore or distort basic Bible knowledge. They claim “you have to know the meaning of the Greek and Hebrew words.” Never mind that the church has historically received the faith from people for whom Hebrew and Greek were their primary languages! So, what, we stumbled upon the Bible 800 years later with no connection whatsoever to 1st century Roman and Jewish culture? Or did we get these teachings from Jews and Romans who passed it down? These “you are interpreting the Bible wrong” folks would have to demonstrate that the early church endorsed homosexuality. They can’t. The most that they can do is try to validate the gnostic ramblings and other noncanonical writings. This is not because such writings endorse homosexuality (they don’t) but all it does is attack the idea of the Holy Spirit inspiration of scripture and orthodoxy based on it. So if they can get rid of the inspiration and authority of scripture and of orthodoxy passed down by those who have preceded us in the faith, then that allows them to say that you can believe what you want to believe and do what you want to do. Of course, to a point. None of these people ever uses these tactics to challenge what Jesus Christ said about peace, loving your neighbor, or helping the poor. Instead, they only use it to challenge things pertaining to sexual behavior, feminism (a movement long dominated by homosexuals and other sexual libertines) and other pet issues. But the amazing thing is that all of these people are so convinced that no one had ever studied the Bible, sociology, history, anthropology, linguistics etc. until some homosexual activist from Berkeley started doing it in the 1960s. They believe that until then, Christians were sitting around rubbing rocks together to start fires. What do these people think that Christians do in seminary and Bible college? Sit around listening to James Dobson tapes? (And not that I am a James Dobson fan, but even he has a Ph.D. in psychology, and could talk for HOURS about about what PROVEN PEER REVIEWED MEDICAL RESEARCH THAT NEVER GETS DISCUSSED IN THE MEDIA OR AT OUR UNIVERSITIES SAYS ABOUT WHAT HOMOSEXUALITY DOES TO THE BODY AND MIND.) These people are so easily deceived because they want to be deceived, which means that it isn’t truly a deception. Instead, they want to believe a lie because they prefer the lie to the truth.

            • These people are so easily deceived because they want to be deceived, which means that it isn’t truly a deception.

              Something inside them wants to believe the lie.

              We are to:
              “Holding the mystery of the faith in a pure conscience.” We must know what the faith is.
              To true believers the Bible is not something intellectual to be studied in order to win an argument, but it effects our very being and it remolds and remakes us on the inside. Therefore we won’t compromise truth.
              Titus 1:15 “Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled.”

              To a person whose conscious is not sensitive, when sin effects his life, he won’t stay pure. He will uphold and defend and excuse things in his own life that do not need to be excused. And he will condone in others things that should be rebuked.

  2. IndependentConservative: What of Samuel’s sons who turned against the faith? That was not held against Samuel. Please recall that God did not judge Eli because his sons were evil, but rather because “Eli restrained them not.” As such, the issue with Jakes is not so much that his son is homosexual, but the fact that he will not remove his son from the church rolls and also even brings him on TV where he reportedly (according to people that I trust) flames and such. Again, this is not only a judgment on Jakes, but everyone that works with, hold revivals with, participates in MegaFest with, etc. TD Jakes. Billy Baldwin? The Crouch Family? Ex – gay Donnie McClurkin? Kirk Franklin? Ed Young (who as a Southern Baptist isn’t even supposed to be hanging out with these people in the first place)! What do they know and when did they know it?

    In any event, though I disagree with your theological position (though only to a degree, seemingly only in details or practical application and not the main thrust), I will modify my post to include your comments, as they are quite relevant.

  3. CovenantBride said

    how sad…the Lord revealed to me long time ago tha td jakes is a motivator…as such he gonna go where the wind blow him…storm tossed and deceived…i heard him interviewed about his ministries, the one with released prisoners…and he said to the effect tha their businesses (prostituion, drugs, etc) were jus tha…businesses…and if the ex cons used their same business skills (sellin, pricin, marketin, they doin for sellin drugs and women)in legit forms they could own real businesses…and when i heard tha…i saw a man who didnt know wat sin is…and fa tha…ii am truly saddened…its not possible to preach the true gospel of the living God if u have no idea about sin…he is lost…as Jesus said of the pharisees…they are blind leaders of the blind…they dont be leadin the seein or the hearin (the Lord God creates the seein eye and the hearin ear)since the Lord delivers His outta babylon…

    still…its sad to see the destruction comin to those who claim the name of Jesus and mock Him (betrayin Him wit a kiss) at every turn…God will not be mocked and u cant make Jesus Christ to be a liar…

    good post…too sad…be bless… -g-

  4. Healtheland said:

    IndependentConservative: What of Samuel’s sons who turned against the faith? That was not held against Samuel. Please recall that God did not judge Eli because his sons were evil, but rather because “Eli restrained them not.”

    I’m not saying Jakes will go to hell because of the sins of his children, certainly not. Jakes will go the hell for his on sins. TD Jakes has taken the heresy noted in Acts 8:20 to levels beyond even what Simon attempted.

    Let’s keep in mind, my assertion is about QUALIFICATIONS FOR CHURCH LEADERSHIP. Not Old Covenant prophet status. 1 Timothy 3 was written for the church, not for Hosea. God told Hosea to marry a harlot because of the sins of Israel and even then that was not the standard. God told THE CHURCH to pick men who are blameless, of one wife, with children who are believers, not found engaging in unruly behavior. And certainly our yolk is easier and the burden lighter than the Mosaic law of the old covenant, although in many ways the law of grace and liberty is of a higher standard than Mosaic law, because we now must adhere to the highest order of love through Christ. We are not given an exception in 1 Timothy 3 for men who fail to rule their own house well and fail to have a family in subjection, because the man decided to marry a harlot or because the children are homosexual. And holding to this is far easier than what others had to hold to before Christ. If the man’s house is out of order because his wife is slutting around or his children are gay, HE’S DISQUALIFIED TO LEAD SAINTS TODAY. Jakes is viewed as a church leader on the NON-BIBLICAL standard of man, which is, “but he sounds good and look at all the people he draws in” :roll:

    The bottom line is this, either we uphold the standard God proclaimed through Christ via the Holy Spirit, as written by the hand of Paul or we don’t. If we uphold the standard, this alone disqualifies Jakes for church leadership, but we know there’s so much more.

  5. IndependentConservative: Well, you are winning me over to your side. But again, if you are a righteous, upright man and your son or daughter rejects God, what do you do? Resign from the pulpit until they move out of your house (or until they are old enough for you to kick them out)? Well, this gets appended to the post as well.

  6. But again, if you are a righteous, upright man and your son or daughter rejects God, what do you do? Resign from the pulpit until they move out of your house (or until they are old enough for you to kick them out)?

    Even if you kick your child out, its still your child. So the righteous man is disqualified unless and until his child repents. IF churches were running with leadership as scripture commands, the righteous man with a child out of order would sit himself down till he convinces his child to get in order, or the other elders would sit him down till he can convince his child to repent.

    This is why Charles Stanley SAID he would step down if his wife divorced him. Well she’s long gone and we see he didn’t keep his word. But HE KNOWS the truth of scripture. God has let him see the high standard for church leadership. But Stanley has decided to compromise and just look at the mess he’s getting himself into.

    When an elder takes a break, it gives him time to get HIS OWN HOUSE IN ORDER.

    We get right back to this:

    (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)

    Are we supposed to let a man assume leadership when his house is in order and then let him remain in leadership after his own family is bringing shame to the house of God? He should be given a break to get his house in order and it would be better if he took a break on his own because he knows when one of his own is getting out of line before we see it.

    Church government is supposed to have a plurality of elders. All on equal footing. So if one needs to take a break for any reason, there are plenty of others to assume the post of speaking elder. Dare I use the secular government term that fits, there is to be a set of “checks and balances” among the elders.

    • daddy said

      man… the word kills but the spirit gives life. I think you are a man of words and you don’t know the Spirit. I feel a lack of love in you and a spirit of judgement.

      • Job said

        “Daddy”

        So, is it ever appropriate to state that a pastor is not living or conducting his ministry according to scripture? If so, when should it be stated? And are you less willing or more willing to apply scripture to the misdeeds of famous pastors than less famous ones? Also, the Holy Spirit only gives life to people who love the Son by obeying His commandments. If you do not obey the Son’s commandments, you do not love the Son, and the Spirit will not give life to those who do not love the Son because the God will not be divided against Himself … according to the Son’s own words, the house divided against itself cannot stand.

        So if a pastor is not obeying the commandments of the Son and for that matter is not obeying the commandments of the very scripture that Holy Spirit inspired, how is the Spirit giving life to that person? If the Spirit gives life to someone who disobeys Him, then the Spirit is divided against Himself and is double – minded. Did not the book of James, which this same Spirit inspired, say that a double minded man will not receive a thing from the Lord? How could the Holy Spirit have inspired such a thing if the Holy Spirit Himself is double minded?

        Do not defend the rebellious, but the obedient. Do not stand with liars, but be for truth. Praise and Glory be to Jesus Christ, whose kingdom shall last forever.

    • Born again beliver said

      Hell is real!! I am not judging,just being real!!!!! If his son chooses to live that life style it’s his soul. Now if Pastor Jakes want to be a part of it by pretending to rewrite the bible and what God really says about sexual sin,then let him go to hell also!!!! God destroyed the city because of sexual sin. If it were my dad, mom, sister, brother or child, according to the bible they all would be destroyed!!! It’s wrong; I don’t care if Dr Phil speaks other wise. Who is he over GOD? Does he and pastor Jakes think money and status places them above our creator? Pastor Jakes should repent and start praying for his son to get things right. Mean-time, he and Dr Phil should stop playing and stop supporting this Gay mess. It is not the person but the sin that you hate. The word states that GOD gives us a choice. Choose this day who you will serve.God hates sin!It’s the only thing that can separate us from him! In the beginning God created man and woman; WE JUST CAN’T CHANGE HIS ORDER because it happens to be a relative.

  7. gcmwatch said

    HTL,
    The mention of TD Jakes son is germane to the post because it sheds light on why he has become so noncomittal to biblical truth concerning the issue.

    We also pointed out that an Atlanta pastor went through the exact same process and came out against what the Bible teaches in favor of his son’s sin.

    Our children’s sin is no reason to abandon Biblical truth. This is why the church is in the fight of its life over this issue, becasue the “leaders” are backing up from what is right.

    Again, that’s the reason why mentioning the son’s issue was pertinent to the post. Anyone who takes it as salacious gossip is only revealing what is within themselves.

  8. gcmwatch: Yes, I agree fully. Thank you.

  9. Yea, what Gcmwatch said :D !

  10. gcmwatch said

    LOL @ IC!
    Thanks Heal for posting this!

  11. gcmwatch: You are welcome. And thanks for doing the research and providing the content.

    IndependentConservative: Well, I guess it is about seeing being a bishop or an elder as being a responsibility of service rather than some personal elevation that you are going to try to fight to hold onto no matter what. If it is about serving God rather than yourself, then you should have no problem stepping down I suppose. Wow. It is a very hard teaching that you are giving on this subject, but I cannot argue against it scripturally.

  12. Diane said

    If Christian leaders had to sit down because one of their sons or daughters were living in sin, there would be no Christian leaders.

    Jesus says He came to bring a sword and a man’s enemies would be they of his own house.

    There are Godly men and women who lament the sin of their children and satan would just love for them to stop serving God.

  13. Rob said

    Practically and Scripturally, IndependentConservative is right, but hey…let’s just tell it like it really is. None of this applies to TD Jakes because he is not a Christian leader. He is a FALSE PROPHET. That’s why we can almost know with certainty that he will not step down from his carnal position of authority driven by his flesh and inspired by. It should not even be expected with any slightness of anticipation that he will address biblically the actions and steps called for by the Bible. This guy proves his lack of faith and is evident by his many responses in denying the true God of the Bible and soft peddling political verbiage for his own personal gain and lack of righteousness. His pride in the flesh is and will continue to be on display until he truly knows the Savior. And as the Bible heavily implies, it’s hard for these people to turn around – they probably never will.

    I mean…I hear you IndependentConservative..It is true that a “Christian Leader” should step down. But we are talking about Jakes here!!!

    I guess for point of discussing scriptures in Titus 1, I agree. God calls leaders as He has prescribed their character in Titus for practical and spiritual reasons not hard to understand. Just because a “Christian Leader” steps down, doesn’t mean he can’t use his gift(s) (I Corinthians 12) to edify the body of Christ.

    Since God indeed is merciful, the least we could do is show humility.

    • pw7270 said

      A lot of people seem to speak about various preachers etc with a very judgemental point of view although none of the these preachers eg.Jakes are anywhere near perfect,to catergorically write them off as false prophets etc, is wrong if your view points are to be taken literally then God could not have and should not have used the likes of David and Moses to name but two out of the bible since both Moses and David were murderers and David was also in adultery.
      I do not think any preacher or church is 100% correct theologically or doctrinelly but only correct to the level that they allow the Holy Spirit to lead them this being said at the end of the day God KNOWS their hearts and ours.

  14. Did anyone realize that Jesus has room for everyone? He would have driven an SUV, just so he could take everyone for a ride. Think about it. Yea.

    http://www.humblenarrator.com/2007/10/24/archaeological-evidence-confirms-jesus-drove-an-suv/

  15. JJ said

    What about those serving in para-church organisations? Or lay people who obey the scripture prompting all believers to be ministers of God?

    If they have an errant off-spring (does this mean adult children too?) who have flaked out and are not serving God should they sit down too?

    Not arguing with the Word. I’m noticing that if this was applied to everybody in every sort of ministry leadership role there’d be nobody left to serve in my community. They’d all be sitting it out due to one foolish or backslidden adult child.
    The void left by the service these believers provide (things like Christian drug counselling, unplanned pregnancy care and advocates for the homeless readily come to mind) would be devastating.

    Your thoughts?
    JJ

  16. If Christian leaders had to sit down because one of their sons or daughters were living in sin, there would be no Christian leaders.

    That is an EXTREMELY false statement. What we would have is REAL church leaders. If you don’t feel a man can maintain is own house as prescribed in 1 Timothy 3, why don’t you just rip it out of your Bible? And you probably think Women should be church leaders too? Like I said, rip that out and while you’re at it rip Titus 1 and some other pages out. Just put YOUR NAME on the front of the book, since you feel you can make the rules for church leadership and modify what God commands.

    Diane – Do you believe the writings of Paul are the Word of God and on EQUAL footing with the red letters in your Bible?

    Like a church elder can help a homosexual repent to Christ while the homosexual is sleeping with his son :roll:

  17. Care to share with us your thoughts about TD Jakes?

  18. gcmwatch said

    Diane, just a question. What is your interpretation of 1Tim 3:4-5?

    What do you think that means and how to you is it applicable in light of your response?

    Are we to ignore it? Is it not applicable? Does it only mean certain people, for certain situations?

  19. JJ:

    “What about those serving in para-church organisations? Or lay people who obey the scripture prompting all believers to be ministers of God?”

    The relevant verses under discussion here, 1 Timothy 3 and Titus 1, only apply to church leaders, those with positions of spiritual and ecclesiastical authority in churches: pastors, bishops, elders, etc. It does not apply elsewhere. As a matter of fact, if a talented individual cannot meet the conditions and requirements given in the Bible, serving in other roles would be the ideal situation: people would be edified by his gifts and the obedience and fidelity of the church through scripture (something that you must admit that virtually no one cares about today!) would not be compromised.

    Now I was actually “debating” to an extent with IndependentConservative while secretly the whole while agreeing with him. Why? Because of one of the things that the late Reggie White discovered not long before he passed: the fact that the church system has become so personality – driven. Instead of it being about God, it either becomes about the pastor or the congregation. Not getting into the problems with the latter, but the former the church has developed this cult of personality because we think that a certain pastor is SOOOO important to the church that it would be SUCH A DISASTER if we were to sit him down. People put their trust in the pastor rather than God. Some denominations actually try to rotate the pastors of local congregations in order to prevent a congregation from getting too attached to and oriented around one pastor or personality (they also rotate trustees to prevent the same problem).

    Were we to start sitting people down and the churches – the real ones anyway! – to continue to function, people would start to focus on the true God instead of making false gods out of these preachers. That would be a good thing, not a bad one. So yes, let the pastors with wayward spouses and kids man the domestic violence, child abuse, teen pregnancy, and suicide hotlines! (I have also argued that “para – church roles” are the perfect opportunity for women with five fold ministry gifts, since the Bible clearly says that they are not to hold positions of ecclesiastical authority!) The church would be better off for it.

  20. Yvette said

    IC, if TD had said his son is no longer a part of the ministry because he refuses to repent, how many people would stick around then? I would like to hope more than I know would. Most people don’t want to be reminded that they cannot have their sin and Jesus too. But my question for you is, doesn’t keeping your house clean mean that if one of your grown child is living in sin you must cut them off and let them go their way if they will not repent? Doesn’t keeping your house mean calling sin what it is and not sugar-coating it and calling it a ‘lifestyle’? For some reason when people talk about sodomy (that’s what it is) they want to act like God turns the other way where that particular sin is concerned. If God is still talking to him to repent I hope he does for denying Jesus before it’s too late. Is there still hope for people like him?

    • Monica said

      If God be for you who can be against you? If God is for you then he is more than the whole world against you!! Are we forgetting the word? The word doesn’t change, not for you, me,or Jakes!!!!!! Yvette, you must be kidding; you better stop wondering what people will do when told the truth. People can’t save your soul!!!! Depending if they like you today; they may or may not give you a glass of water.I know what is happening, No body is taking God’s word to be true!!!! I seriously pray that we all get things right before the great return!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  21. gcmwatch said

    Yvette, IC if I may chime in.
    Im a minister and I have 4 children that live under my roof. They don’t always do whats right, but I still love them. Yet, my love for them does not negate my instructions to them about their behavior as representives of the church in relation to me.

    I told them Im sorry you were born to a minister who believes what the Bible says, but if you persist in a behavior that brings shame to the church or your parents I will not hesitate to use the options the Bible told me to. You know what that is.

    That being said… Once they are grown, they are no longer a “part of my house”, thus 1 Tim 3:4-5 has no direct and immediate application to me. I would still expect them to conduct their lives according to what I have taught them, but I have no practical governance over their lives. The exception is that if they are grown, and still physically living with me (rule your own house well).

    TD Jakes’ son from what I have been told has moved into a well-heeled Dallas apartment. Im not sure of the extent of his homosexual activities now, but because of the high profile of his father, his actions (especially if the gay community sinks their teeth into it) will have an serious impact on Jakes. Maybe he knows this already and is attempting to compensate/cover with the neutral love language.

    Does anyone remember the story of Alan Keyes 19 year old daughter? I think he did the right thing. he cut off her college money and apartment payments. The gay community picked up the tab for both.

  22. Gcmwatch: I saw Alan Keyes assert on his talk show on MSNBC that people molested by the Catholic Church (Keyes is Catholic) should not go to the authorities because of the damage that the church was suffering because of it. Keyes recanted the next evening, but it was clear: Keyes was advocating lower standards for rapist homosexual molester church officials than his own daughter. Further, the guy “runs for office” and pays himself six figure salaries from his virtually nonexistent campaign funds to support his lavish lifestyle, racking up huge debts in the process. The guy has had many a chance to get a real job, including run for a political office that he could actually win, but he avoids it like the plague. I understand the point that you were trying to make, but I am sorry, Keyes is just an utterly loathsome human being.

  23. gcmwatch said

    Yeah that he might be (Im no fan of his), but as you noted the point is that when a parent has a child who is “grown” they arent responsible for the child’s actions unless they live in the same residence. Of course he’s not a minister, but I mentioned it just to illustrate the broader point!

  24. Gcmwatch – I defer to your assessment of things. If someone in the church is not acting right they are to be excommunicated. If a child is an adult AND out of the house AND the father cut off support AND does not do things like have that child in their “ministry” AND kicks them out of the church assembly till the child repents, that would be sufficient.

    I feel Proverbs 22:6 is truth and when things like this occur, if the child never repents it’s possible the parent failed in their responsibilities.

    Now if TD Jakes would have rejected keeping his homosexual son as part of his “ministry” we would not be having this discussion.

    But even if Jakes kicked his homosexual son 12 football fields away, there is still The Sacrilege of T.D. Jakes.

    When folks claim we should not hold these guys to a standard regarding how they deal with sin of the children they raised and were a part of seeing them come into this world, it is a slap in the face of the many church leaders who do keep their own house in order and reject when their adult children continue in sin.

    I can’t argue with a word said about Keyes, he needs to get out of that (Catholic) cult. And for a long time I didn’t know all the reasons it is a cult (and there are plenty more), but all in it need to get out.

  25. Rob said

    Questions for any to answer?

    Is there a difference between a bishop / elder / deacon serving in the capacity perscribed in Titus and Timothy as “Church Leaders”, and those who serve in “Church Ministry”, i.e. (usher board lead, church maintenance lead, finance lead, etc.)? Do we or should we apply the same “resign from your post because of wayward children” disposition for those who serve in “Church Ministry” as we do for those who serve in “Church Leadership”?

  26. Diane said

    TD Jakes’ humanistic gospel is not the gospel of Jesus Christ. Homosexuality is CLEARLY condemned by God.

    All followers of Christ are commanded to preach repentance and remissions of sins in His Name. Not everyone will repent; that may include our children and spouses. If grown children do not reverence the ways of our Heavenly Father, then they should have their own home. As long as children are living in the home of believing parents then they should be expected to honor Christ.

    As far as the question about church leadership, Jesus clearly defines that as servanthood not dominion over. A true follower of Christ has nothing to “step-down” from, because only Christ is Head. It is a holy life, that shines in the darkness. It is a holy life that cannot be hidden, and that is what others SEE.

  27. Rob – Scripture speaks of 2 roles in church leadership, elders (also called bishops or pastors or overseers, all the exact same thing although today some act like the terms mean different things, but in scripture it’s all the same and we should strive to follow scripture, not tradition) and deacons (no “deaconess”). There is no recognition in scripture of any other posts and any other posts created by a church assembly should fall under the service of the elders and be subject to the elders’ leadership (again I’ll mention there is supposed to be a plurality of elders in every church assembly). (Also let’s keep in mind this discussion is about church assembly leadership, not all the roles of the “5 fold ministry”, that’s another very long chat in its self.) So in the regard of groups and posts established other than elders and deacons, they are subject to whatever the elders establish as rules for their discipline, if there might be any additional rules at all beyond scripture’s guidelines for discipline of any church member. The elders and deacons are to be “blameless” and of the highest moral character of the assembly as the example for all. And that would be “all” as in all inside and outside of the church.

  28. Diane said

    Independentconservative, do you believe you can remove the very Words of Christ or believe that Jesus’ commands do not apply to you concerning how you communicate with other believers?

    There are a lot of things that you don’t know or understand about God and others, nor can you begin to learn until you humble yourself concerning Jesus’ commands. JESUS is the WAY. He promised us, IC, that our enemies would be they of our own house. There would be division. I have witnessed the reality of this statement of our Lord in many faithful followers of Christ. Jesus is the TRUTH. The TRUTH is in only ONE. His Name is EMMANUEL. Not Peter, Mary, etc. they are clay vessels. The substance is Christ.

    If you love Me keep My commandment.

  29. Rob said:

    None of this applies to TD Jakes because he is not a Christian leader. He is a FALSE PROPHET. That’s why we can almost know with certainty that he will not step down from his carnal position of authority driven by his flesh and inspired by. It should not even be expected with any slightness of anticipation that he will address biblically the actions and steps called for by the Bible. This guy proves his lack of faith and is evident by his many responses in denying the true God of the Bible and soft peddling political verbiage for his own personal gain and lack of righteousness. His pride in the flesh is and will continue to be on display until he truly knows the Savior. And as the Bible heavily implies, it’s hard for these people to turn around – they probably never will.

    Exactly!

    I think we need to keep that in mind here. Although we’ve been talking about what is expected of a real church leader, we’ve got one horrible name to be at the top of the discussion.

    I always put things in scriptural terms, at times acting like these pimps should be held to that, because their followers assume they are leaders and I need a place to get them started in seeing the problem.

  30. cathy48 said

    I’m sure this has been a hard thing for Jakes to handle but in doing so he must step aside and remember who he represents and that is Jesus Christ. In no way do I feel his son should have a job in the church and being seen on camera to the world that’s just saying “I’m queer and here”. We should never bring reproach on the house of God.
    But I fear that Jakes is leaning because it is his son, it hurts to see our children do wrong or get on the wrong path to destruction and as a parent our love is deep.
    There is no deeper love than that of God, and as much as he love people he also was stern when it came to sin.
    **I visit my sisters church a few months ago and the preacher was preaching about the upper room were the apostle were filled with the Holy Ghost – but one thing was missing the preacher spoke of everything but the Holy Ghost ( they don’t believe in it) so that part of the scripture was not read nor spoke about. We cannot take the word of God and pick out the pieces we like and fill out hearts with half truths but we must take the whole armor of God and the Bible tells us that the word of God is like a two edged sword it cuts going and coming. I feel this is a step that will give off wrong intentions and break down the true word of God – People are so easy to follow and when it hits home we sometimes try to change things to meet our own needs. Remember we all will give an account to our creator and we can not use excuses such as “Well Lord he’s my Son” Go will not wink on ignorance. The bible clearly states “The Wages of Sin is Death”. Follow Christ.

  31. Rob said

    Hey GWWatch;

    I’m not sure about the “if they are grown and out of the house” thing. I contend that verses in Titus and Timothy say that the children of Church Leaders (grown or not grown – in or out of the house) should have righteous character. I’m not sure that scriptures leave much if any room here. I mean…it is not an “impossibility” that children of Christian Leaders be godly. There are grown children of many Christian parents who are not “unruly”. The standard that God sets for Church Leaders is that if any man desires the office, he must have lived and is living a clean life. I am not sure if this means applies to one’s pre-salvation days. I just don’t see how deeply perverted people could ever aspire to hold any of these offices. I believe God’s calling for servants in this capacity is so sacred. This however doesn’t mean that believer with deeply perverted pasts can not serve in God’s church to edify the body as He has gifted all believers who trusts in his Son (I Cor. 12), just not in the sacred position as Leader. Just my thoughts on the matter.

  32. johnkaniecki said

    Rob,

    As far as I understand Timothy and Titus there is a difference between Elder/Bishop/Overseer and Deacon. Elders are responsible for the spiritual oversight while deacons are more for the physical, day to day aspect. Look at Acts chapter 6 though the word Deacon isn’t mentioned. Elders and Deacons are to be men just like all the twelve apostles were. Elders would make sure the doctrine being preached and taught was in accordance to the Word of God. Deacons would take care of the building and so forth. The Deacons would report to the Elders. I don’t think it is scriptural to have Deacons without Elders.

    On a related matter in the Church of Christ there is vast confusion over these issues. I know ministers who refuse to have elders appointed simply because they want to control everything especially the finances. These people propose that they are “evangelists” and that evangelists are in absolute control of the church. As a result “senior ministers” or “preachers” will refer to themselves as “evangelists” incorrectly. A Biblical example of an evangelist was Paul. Paul started churches where none existed. Titus 1:5 is the scripture they pervert.”For this cause left I thee in Crete, that thou shouldest set in order the things that are wanting and ordain elders in every city, as I had appointed thee” I know a minister who told us that this scripture gave the so called evangelist complete power to do whatever he wanted as the church was not a democracy. Titus was indeed to set things in order. How was he to do this? Read the scripture, by appointing elders. Titus who accompanied Paul was there when the congregations were formed. Therefore he had intimate knowledge of the people. There was nobody intially qualified to be an Elder as an Elder cannot be a novice or new in the faith. Thus he must return to appoint elders. Paul couldn’t do it so Titus had to. But I’m sure if Paul did he would have discussed it with Titus. Titus did appoint Elders using his judgement to the people he helped to evangelize.

    Anyone who says an “evangelist” has complete power over the congregation ask these questions. Is this person an evangelist or just wears that title? The scriptural thing to set things in order is to appoint elders, are there qualified men?

    Preachers should preach the Word of God. That is there job. They aren’t financial experts and they shouldn’t be controlling the money. Preaching and teaching the Word of God is more important than the money. Let preachers do their job.

    Love,

    John

  33. cathy48: Be honest about TD Jakes. He is not representing Jesus Christ and has not been for a long time. The guy moved into heretical apostasy many years ago.

  34. MARIE said

    KATHY: DO YOU LIVE WITH T.D. JAKES? NO, SO STOP ACTING LIKE YOU REALLY KNOW WHAT HE IS ABOUT. SEARCH YOUR OWN SOUL AND SEE IF YOU ARE STILL IN THE FAITH, AND AFTER YOU DO THAT THEN STRENGTHEN T.D. JAKES AND ALL THESE OTHER LEADERS BY GETTING ON YOUR FACE BEFORE GO ON THEIR BEHALF. ARE YOU LIVING THE BEST YOU CAN LIVE? THATIS THE QUESTION I ASK MYSELF BEFORE I START JUDGING OTHERS.

  35. MARIE: TD Jakes is a heretic, and that is plainly evident by what he preaches and how he lives. Stop pretending that this is not true. The guy actually went on Larry King Live on CNN and claimed not to know for certain whether salvation could only be obtained through Jesus Christ. Now he is promoting and endorsing Dr. Phil, who claims that homosexuality is not a sin but should be accepted. Jakes claimed that Jesus Christ had to have been rich in order to take care of his disciples when the Book of Luke clearly states that Christ’s disciples, especially the women, had to raise money to support the disciples and the ministry, and that Jesus Christ had to work a miracle in order to get up the money to pay taxes. TD Jakes knows that these are in the Bible, but he lied on God and the Bible in order to justify his million dollar mansion and private jet lifestyle. What is it going to take for you people to admit that these heretics and liars are what they are?

  36. Diane – I asked you several questions in comment #16, that you did not answer, including:

    If you don’t feel a man can maintain is own house as prescribed in 1 Timothy 3, why don’t you just rip it out of your Bible? And you probably think Women should be church leaders too?

    Diane – Do you believe the writings of Paul are the Word of God and on EQUAL footing with the red letters in your Bible?

    I did not ask you these questions in jest. Once you answer my questions, I will consider what you have asked me.

  37. Johnkaniecki, you mentioned:

    A Biblical example of an evangelist was Paul.

    No, Paul was the example of an apostle. Men like Timothy, Titus and Phillip were evangelists, 2 Timothy 4:5, Acts 21:8. An evangelist and apostles are not the same in the 5 fold ministry, Ephesians 4:11.

    Evangelists do not hold “church leadership” posts. They are NOT elders or deacons. Timothy was an evangelist working on behalf of Paul and did not become a church elder till about his 60’s. Look up the history of Timothy’s life and you’ll see. An evangelist is not even required to meet all the requirements of an Elder or even a deacon, because an evangelist might be a single person who is rooted in scripture, but still seeking to marry. Consider evangelist work as a possible proving ground for potential elders. Evangelists offer prophesy (aka scripture exposition, aka a sermon) and help church leaders, but they function more on the side of spreading the Gospel, while Deacons are church leaders under elders who deal more with the service side of things. Today evangelists operate under the leadership of a home church assembly, but travel out as either instructed by their elders or as the Lord might lead them with their elders in agreement. We here and I wish I could say it was not true, we act in the role of teachers and will face the stiffer judgment for it, James 3:1.

    Paul and the apostles planted churches and various evangelists, teachers and elders, but that was in the establishment of the church as a whole. Today, if Town X has no church and there are saints there, an elder from Town Y would do well to send an evangelist to help establish a church in Town X, by helping in the process of selection of elders. The evangelist would not be in Town X to become an elder themselves, just to convey and carry out the process of getting things established, working on behalf of their own elders. This would free the elders up to continue their duties to the church assembly in Town Y.

    If I messed up, anyone feel free to offer correction.

  38. IndependentConservative: Not a correction but a challenge :-)

    Has The Five Fold Office Of Apostle Ceased To Exist?

  39. Steven said

    IC: Right you are. I would never have assumed that the discussion taking place under this title would be like it is.

    My understanding of church leadership in the local congregation is what Paul says in Philipians 1:1, “to the saints with the Bishops and Deacons.” Bishops and Deacons have specific qualifications.

    Also, the term Pastor as we see it used today and as used in the Bible are at odds. Pastor/Bishop/Overseers are the same position and have the same qualifications.

    Many small churches have “Pastors” but they are not qualified as such via I tim 3. That position is more in line with a minister or evangelist. I, myself, do not like the misuse of that term but all I can do is not use it myself. :-)

    As to an elder’s house(hold), the children grow up and leave his household as the scripture says: “a man shall leave his father and mother…” and what can be said about the child then? Did the Father rule him well while he was in his house? Was he in subjection?

    A good case could be made that it is once the child leaves that the true ability of the father is revealed. Another case could be made for the fact that sometimes individuals simply quit and the father did well while the child was subject to him.

    However, without deciding THAT situation, we should be able to agree that I tim 3 and Titus are not qualifications for ministers and those that preach or those that use the term “pastor” for minister. Rather for those that lead the congregation as Elders/Bishops/Pastors or serve under the leadership of the Elders as Deacons.

    Therefore anyone who repents and gives his life to our Lord might have been the most perverted individual and messed up his life and his kids lifes…this person can still preach the Gospel. Though perhaps never being able to qualify to be an Elder, he can still do the work of an evangelist or minister or teacher.

    I don’t know Jakes at all. However, if any son of mine were to turn and live a homosexual lifestyle or any other lifestyle of rebellion, it would be my duty to make clear to him and all others that my son was wrong and living in sin. As an Elder, I think a good case can be made to step down, though not an absolute case. As a preacher, there is no such requirement as long as I do not allow my love for my son (and desire for his repentence) to keep me from preaching the truth.

    agape,
    Steven

  40. Charles D. said

    IndependentConservative “if I messed up,” alone is sufficient evidence that you should speak (where infant christians might accept your ravings as gospel, only when you are willing to accept the consequences of leading someone astray. You are wrong on many points and I do not care to, almost in the words of the Apostle Paul ” make you appear ignorant, brother. However, minimal Bible study reveals that Paul most certainly was an evangelistist as well as recognizing himself as the 13th apostle.

    More importantly, my soul was stirred by the manner this whole TDJakes post came about. In setting up the invitation for comments; I am absolutely amazed by the number of pre-qualifications, e.g. “he is NOT responsible,” “I would NEVER claim,” “I would NEVER,” “I have to answer to God one day for everything that I say and do is precisely why I would NEVER resort to such a cheap trick,” then commense tearing Jakes a new one, as it were.

    I believe TD Jakes is a disgrace to any ministry, except, the ministry of money and I am sure in his heart of hearts he realize that he is a fraud; take money from little old ladies that can least afford it; from prominent atheletes (primarily Dallas Cowboy has beens, I mean where are those to whom he sold ordanation?) that provide Jakes higher visibility and to a limited degree legitamacy. The fact that if he has a son who happens to be gay, may be God’s way of firing a shot across his bow.

    I think, no, I know that it is wrong to have less than honest and open motives to “dog” someone, no matter how repugnant their behavior or sin, and cause others to engage in back-biting, when if they knew your true motives, they would probably remain silent.

    I love God for real,

    Charles

  41. Gary said

    I think u have no idea what u have started. The bible also says, Touch not my anointed and do my prophet no harm. It just pisses me off that your name is healtheland but yet you sit up late and night and bring gossip on the international web. How could you live with yourself. Everyone comes short of the glory of God. He who has NO SIN cast the first stone! How could you talk about a man of God like this. If you have a problem with Jakes, that’s your problem. But bringing a problem out in the open like this is a low blow. And you will be judged for it.
    I don’t see your point in doing this at all! My question to you is, are you ready to go back with Jesus when He cracks the sky? Do you have your house in order? Someone needs to see what you are hiding within your own self. Everyone isn’t perfect. You should know that. You have nothing better to do. Are you going to say something about the deaths among people that have no where to go or who to talk to. I love Jakes. He has helped my family in so many ways. You need to get a life and leave him and his family alone. You are speaking about things you don’t have a clue about. So what, if his son was in a gay club. So what, you have many people that are celebrities at ant kind of club. His older sons are grown. He is a grown ass man. Trying to live a life. I suggest you live yours because what you are doing is being a stepping stone to Jakes. You are strengthening him, not making him any weak. I’m going to pray for you man. That’s real talk. I am going to pray for his family even more because people are called to cover Jakes. I am one of them.
    You have started a warfare within me that the is no way in hell you will ever win. I rebuke you in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. No weapon formed against Jakes or his family will ever prosper. Not even this.

    You be blessed and I pray that you know that you are wrong and not right. Deal with your problems because this straight up sick.

  42. Gary said

    I think u have no idea what u have started. The bible also says, Touch not my anointed and do my prophet no harm. It just pisses me off that your name is healtheland but yet you sit up late and night and bring gossip on the international web. How could you live with yourself. Everyone comes short of the glory of God. He who has NO SIN cast the first stone! How could you talk about a man of God like this. If you have a problem with Jakes, that’s your problem. But bringing a problem out in the open like this is a low blow. And you will be judged for it.
    I don’t see your point in doing this at all! My question to you is, are you ready to go back with Jesus when He cracks the sky? Do you have your house in order? Someone needs to see what you are hiding within your own self. Everyone isn’t perfect. You should know that. You have nothing better to do. Are you going to say something about the deaths among people that have no where to go or who to talk to. I love Jakes. He has helped my family in so many ways. You need to get a life and leave him and his family alone. You are speaking about things you don’t have a clue about. So what, if his son was in a gay club. So what, you have many people that are celebrities at ant kind of club. His older sons are grown. He is a grown ass man. Trying to live a life. I suggest you live yours because what you are doing is being a stepping stone to Jakes. You are strengthening him, not making him any weak. I’m going to pray for you man. That’s real talk. I am going to pray for his family even more because people are called to cover Jakes. I am one of them.
    You have started a warfare within me that the is no way in hell you will ever win. I rebuke you in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. No weapon formed against Jakes or his family will ever prosper. Not even this.

    You be blessed and I pray that you know that you are wrong and not right. Deal with your problems because this straight up sick. Do u know Jakes? Do you know his son? How do you know about him being a gay club? Were you there? Are you gay? What is the point in doing this? What are you gaining out of this?

    You know what I think that you are jealous of a successful BLACK MAN!!!
    Jakes had money before he knew he had money. God open the doors of heaven and bless Jakes with his fame, cars, houses, a beautiful family, and people that love him and pray for him daily. I pray that you didn’t cause suffering to his son over this gossip of defaming his son. What would you have to say if God forbid his son killed himself over this???

    Its on the internet. I feel very sorry for you man.

    Let me get off of here and pray not only for Bishop T. D. Jakes, but for his son.

  43. j said

    You guys, I have read all of your comments and arguments. Not one of you have stated facts about anything that TD Jakes is about. You all are stating hear say. I do believe in the Word of God. I reverance him for all he is in my life. Jakes has an awesome ministry. He also gives more to his community in Dallas Ft. Worth then any preacher I know. I believe that Jakes is a leader and man of God. But I also believe that if you were in his shoes and knew how he worked harder to get where he is in God, you all wouldn’t have anything to say. Jealous spirits will get you know where. Have you all prayed for his son? Have you all tried contacting his son? Do you all know him? Do you know TD Jakes?
    The only reason as to why this conversation even started was because the person that started this blog doesn’t like TD jakes at all. He had nothing better to do. There are people writing scriptures down on this blog that don’t know what a true intimate relationship is with God. This blog has nothing to do with his son being gay, bisexual, heterosexual or an animal. This is to try to tear TD Jakes down. To get him to sit down. But for what? Every pastors child goes through something. I am pastors kid. I have met all of his children. I’m 29 years old. I met them at a pastors kids conference a few years ago. They are so down to earth and non judgemental. They love hard and get treated like they are nothing half of the time because of who they are.
    You all are tearing the wrong people down for no reason. My thoughts to this blog is that you all don’t know anything about Jakes or his family at all. I really feel sorry for you all. And its going to come right back at you 3 fold. Do you all know the power of life and death is in your tongues? What ever it is that you all have towards Jakes is used as a stepping stone. God said in his word that He will make your enemies a foot stool.

    I am glad that all of you are tearing Jakes down because him and his son are going to use this to step into greatness.

    Father, right now in the name of Jesus, I ask that you continue to guide Jakes, protect him from hurt, pain, jealousy, harassment, words that are meant to destroy, guilt, and from anything that is not of you Jesus. Protect his son from this, help him to know that there others in the world that are praying for him and won’t judge him in any kind of way. Help him to be strengthen by this not weakened in any kind of way. God I come to you even praying for these people on this blog. Only you can bring conviction to their hearts. Only you can do it God. Only you can. Send your warring angels to fight Jakes family’s battles for them. Only you alone God knows the outcome. I rebuke anything that is not like you God. Because I know this is just stepping stone to what you have in store for TD and his son.I stand on your Word Jesus that you can fixed this situation. Make paths striagt and allow your Glory to feel his place. Where ever he is God. I love you Master. Amen.

    Now that’s what all of you need to do. Stand in and pray for his son and no matter what believe that God is God and He alone can make a bad thing turn into a good thing for His glory, instead of judging others for mistakes. That’s how people give up on God. Every Minister, Elder, Prophet, Bishop, Praise Worshipper or whatever has something in there past or storms they go thru in life. But I see you don’t have testimony or mistakes in your life that you have mad. Defaming. someone is criminal, fraud, bad news, ignorant, and highly immature on all of you. You have nothing better to do. TD Jakes is not going to back down because of hear say.

    TD Jakes got to many people praying for him to do that. Believe when I tell you, this only the beginning of greater blessing to his family. You have unleashed a BIG BLESSING for Jakes.
    None of you have family value at all. If this happen to you and your son or daughter you all wouldn’t have nothing to say at.

    I love you TD…

  44. gcmwatch said

    This however doesn’t mean that believer with deeply perverted pasts can not serve in God’s church to edify the body as He has gifted all believers who trusts in his Son (I Cor. 12), just not in the sacred position as Leader. Just my thoughts on the matter.

    That’s some strange doctrine….or thoughts.
    It appears you dont think the blood of Jesus truly washes away the stain of sin.
    Just…really strange thinking.

  45. gcmwatch said

    Jakes claimed that Jesus Christ had to have been rich in order to take care of his disciples when the Book of Luke clearly states that Christ’s disciples, especially the women, had to raise money to support the disciples and the ministry, and that Jesus Christ had to work a miracle in order to get up the money to pay taxes.

    He also didnt even own a burial plot. Today that would be considered a pauper’s burial. Thankfully, God anointed a rich man to lend his a place. He only needed it for a few days…lol

  46. cathy48 said

    Marie,

    I’m not judging TD but the bible tells us in Matthew 12:33 Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by [his] fruit.
    What kind of message are we sending, TD has many followers and the only thing I’m concern about is spreading the CORRECT word of God and again like I said before the word is like a two edged sword it cuts going and coming – this is for me and everyone else. You cannot twist the word to fit your situation or life style. Jesus came to save the world not to condemn it – To Save it we must walk up right and have a clean heart with out sin – Christ cannot live in an unclean heart nor will he dwell in a unclean temple. I just want TD to preach / teach the correct and true word of God with out his own interpretation, but by the anointing of God. I do spend time in pray and everyday I ask God is there someting I’m not doing or should be doing to walk in a better light with the Lord.

  47. Rob said

    GWWatch:

    O no!!! I wasn’t talking about salvation here at all. I believe strictly in the Bible that the only way man’s sins can be washed away is by the Blood of Christ.

    I was talking more about a person with a deeply perverted past (pre- salvation) serving the LORD after he or she becomes saved, and whether these types (with deeply perverted pasts) can hold the office of Bishop/Elder/Pastor or Deacon.

  48. gcmwatch said

    “…deeply perverted past (pre- salvation) serving the LORD after he or she becomes saved, and whether these types (with deeply perverted pasts) can hold the office of Bishop/Elder/Pastor or Deacon.”

    Examples, please? and while youre at it, include some scripture references.

  49. To you who feel we are wrong about TD Jakes:

    TD Jakes left a Muslim with the impression, that Jesus will be letting people LIKE THE MUSLIM WOMAN into Heaven as “other sheep” when specifically asked. He DID NOT tell the Muslim she must accept Christ or face hell and the Lake of Fire at judgment.

    See the transcript at http://heresyhunter.blogspot.com/2006/05/t-d-jakes-on-salvation.html
    I’ve heard the audio myself, Jakes was on NPR on May 2, 2006 to promote his book. He was asked about salvation and homosexuality and BOMBED on both questions. BECAUSE HE’S JUST ABOUT HOCKING HIS JUNK!!!

    Hear the actual NPR audio yourself:
    Mega Church Leader Bishop T.D. Jakes

    The Sacrilege of T.D. Jakes.

  50. Diane said

    IC, your mannerism and refusal to address people with mutual dignity is an offense to Christ. Your condensending tone or choice of words were very out of line. I have already openly discussed my beliefs with Healtheland on the issue of Women Pastors, we disagree with each other, but I’m not attacked by him, when commenting on other issues. This is not that forum.

    I do believe it would be best that you recognize Christ and the greatest command before addressing me.

  51. Diane – Do you believe the writings of Paul are the Word of God and on EQUAL footing with the red letters in your Bible?

  52. Steven said

    Gcm:
    my thought on Rob’s comment is that an Elder needs to meet certain qualifications. An Elder is a leader in the church and needs to do so. I tim 3/titus

    A sinner who comes to Jesus might be a capable leader personality but because he doesn’t meet the qualification of being an Elder be excluded from that position. However, I know of no qualification for being a minister or preacher or teacher of the Gospel that any faithful Christian would not meet.

    As an example, Someone who has grown up to be 50 and is not married, no kids and has lived in sin up to that point, can be a teacher but not an Elder. Someone who is not Apt to teach, does not make an elder either and certainly, someone recently converted at 50 woudn’t soon be qualified anyway being a novice.

    Now, I am sure that if at 50 this hypothetical person grew in the Lord, married, had kids, raised them to be faithful and then maybe took a Dale Carnegie course on how to speak in public or some teaching courses on how to be an effective teacher that about 70’ish give or take, such a person could become an elder. So it isn’t IM-possible. But the qualifications for being a leader are more strigent for a reason and not everyone is going to qualify.

    Of course, you can build the 50 yr old individual who is currently married, has rebellous kids cuz he didn’t train them, and he too would be disqualified.

    Of course, it really does depend on what we mean by ‘leader’. The church, as I see it, as a congregation has saints, elders and deacons. It doesn’t have board members and councils and Biships, Sr. Pastors and Jr. Pastors. It does have individuals who work together to cause the growth of the body.

  53. djenk23 said

    my question is…..what if the one wayward child of said preacher is not one of the Elect?…i guess you weren’t meant to be a pastor…1 Timothy 3 doesn’t say anything about ‘your children being believers’ as one of the prerequisites for being an overseer….having his children in subjection with all gravity simply means having your children under control…if Andy Reid(coach of the Philadelphia Eagles with 2 out of control sons) was an overseer/bishop/pastor, then you’d have a case for him stepping down…all that being said, I think more families would benefit from pastors stepping down when they start to see their personal lives spinning out of control….That whole ‘preacher’s kid’ stigma based in truth…i should know…not that I was a discipline problem because my dad did everything he could to make time ,show us love, and put us in check when we were out of line….my moms cousins on the other hand…boy oh boy…they know how to ‘play’ church real well…but practical application is a whole other story…i know plenty of people that hate church because of their father putting the ‘ministry’ over the family…or divorces because wives are being neglected because of the ministry….

  54. j: TD Jakes will not even come out and say that Jesus Christ is the only way to heaven. So you were saying?

  55. djenk23 – You’re neglecting Titus 1, which helps prove 1 Timothy 3 is asking for children who show themselves to be believers.

    All this, but, but, but and what if, what if, what if…

    If the man’s house is out of order, for the LOVE of that man PLEASE sit him down and give him time to get his own house in order.

    There is a layer of selfishness in wanting to keep a man up in leadership to DO FOR YOU when you know he has issues within his own house that he needs to devote his time to instead.

    This is the Word of God, not an optional pick list we vote about.

  56. Charles D.:

    I never at any time stated that my desire was not to criticize TD Jakes. You are fully aware that I HAVE DOZENS OF POSTS ON HERE THAT CRITICIZE THE MAN. HE IS A LIAR. HE IS A BLASPHEMER. HE IS AN ABOMINABLE HERETIC. I WILL TELL ANYONE THAT ASKS ME THIS ABOUT HIM TO THEIR FACE ANY TIME ANY PLACE INCLUDING TD JAKES HIMSELF AND ANY MEMBER OF HIS FAMILY OR CHURCH AND YOU YOURSELF KNOW THAT I WOULD. So how on earth could you even claim that I was in any way masking my intent to speak of Jakes’ many evils? Especially since the title was TD JAKES HAS A GAY SON! Now come on, the instant you saw that title you knew what it was going to be about. My intentions were evident from the moment that you clicked on that link, and you cannot pretend otherwise and be honest. Further, you know every well, Charles D., that I do not hide or mask my intentions. You know very well that I am not the “wink wink nudge nudge” sort. Everything that I believe I lay out in the open in the most direct and brutal way possible.

    Further, you well know that I had a perfectly legitimate topic of discussion. TD Jakes is joining the ranks of “homosexuality is OK because God make them that way.” How long has he been doing so? For quite some time. That is what makes Jakes’ homosexual son germane. And how about this: Jakes will not discipline his son before his congregation or even discuss the matter. The fellow is doing his best to keep it a secret. I did not put that in the post because, well it is self – evident, isn’t it?

    So Charles, what are my motives? You say that if everyone knew my true motives, they would remain silent. OK, so what are my true motives? Let the whole world know my motives, and then let them know yours. If you expose me for what I am, I will make a final post exposing myself as a fraud, a cheat, and a liar, let it run for a week or two, and then delete this weblog. But you won’t be able to. Why? Because you know why I am doing this: to love God, glorify Him, and serve Him by informing His people.

  57. Diane:

    Not that my manner is any better than IndependentConservative’s, but I am very interested in hearing your answer to the question. It is a very important one that every Christian needs to answer first within himself and then publicly. So, I ask of you that you would please let me know whether you feel that the words of Paul are equal to the words of Jesus Christ. This has applications beyond this subject, for instance. The whole debate with the oneness pentecostals … you have Jesus Christ saying baptize in the Name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit in Matthew 28 versus Peter being recorded as saying baptize in the Name of Jesus only in Acts 2:38. Now I used to say that the words of Jesus Christ should take priority over the words of Peter. But now I have a better way of resolving the issue: that Peter (and Luke) had a specific rhetorical and sermonic intention … Peter did not intend to provide a specific liturgical baptismal formula in that speech, and such was also not the intent of Luke when he recorded Peter’s words. I developed a similar explanation for Steven in this reply to his comment regarding why scripture was recorded as saying that the Jews killed Jesus: http://healtheland.wordpress.com/2007/09/12/did-the-jews-kill-christ-or-was-jesus-a-victim-of-identity-theft/#comment-14855.
    So, do you believe that the instructions of Paul concerning pastors, bishops, elders, and other church officers should be strictly adhered to?

  58. So Charles, what are my motives?

    Obviously not to help equip anyone. He’s doing a few drive by comments and claiming he does not wish to go into details because he’ll make someone look ignorant.

    My point on apostles versus evangelist is that Paul was an apostle, Timothy was not. That’s not to say that Paul was not carrying out duties that fulfill other roles, he certainly was a teacher too, which is a separate role in the 5 fold ministry.

    Charles D., I’ve not no ego issues and wish the truth be known. If I’m wrong or anyone else, than show us what you’ve found in scripture and spend the time in discussion with us.

    Healtheland – You’re right about the matter of Baptism. The recorded actions of the apostles were simply to mention the method minus the details. So you knew it was not like a Jewish baptism, but the one established by the Lord Jesus Christ, Matthew 28:19. The details of how that is done are full immersion into a body of water while doing it “in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit”. Done after they accept Christ and not for babies or children too young to decide for themselves.

    I’ve found a good teaching on baptism that I posted various direct links to: The Truth About Baptism.

  59. Rob said

    Steven:

    Your comments are biblical and well thought out. The examples you gave were great as they show the idea of a man who desire to be a leader in the church should consider all the qualifications that are outlined in Scriptures. Not only the man who desires the office, but laymen as well should know and understand these traits. Thanks for the very insightful post (#52).

  60. Charles D. said

    First to the writers of comments 41 and 43, 41 feels so strongly about his diatribe he stated it twice. However, you both have expressed your deep admiration for JD Jakes, what you believe he have done for you, suggesting that he have even strengthen your faith. Secondly, I am not sure whether your comments are directed to me, or, to the originator of the topic. Irrespective of whom your comments are directed and judging by the profanity laced within your comments, if they represent what you’ve learned from TD Jakes, then, I rest my case. You’ve proven it very well. I will not go into the “You will know a tree by the fruit that it bear, or, a corrupt tree cannot bear good fruit, that would be taking advantage of you.

    I recognized the fact that you don’t know me, and therefore, you have probably not seen other of my posts regarding my Bible hero David because of his respect for God;s kings, Priest, or Prophets. You each personally cannot possibly find anyone that knows me and who will not tell you about, no, lecture you about my devotion, first to my God and my lord and savior Jesus Christ and Him crucified. Were that not the case, I would probably be concerned about the “curse” “small letters for small minds intended); I am not concerned about you or Jakes.

    Know this one thing, I will stand on the truth that I speak, fear no man, and I mean every syllable that I spoke in my comments. Now you can like it, lick it, or lump it! I cannot send any man to Heaven above or Hell below. They have to do that fore themselves. I am not in agreement with the way this topic came about and I stated as much. NOW! If you love TD Jakes, as much as you both have public professed, then, the best thing that you can do for him, is to ask him to say the salvation prayer for himself in your presence. If for any reason he refuses to do that for you his faithful followers….whether you choose to continue to feel about him the way that you say you do now; then, at least the three of you are going to burst hell wide-open. And paradoxically, his son might still be saved.

    I love Jesus and He knows it,

    Charles

  61. Charles D. said

    HTL I read your comments and what is very apparent to me is the fact that you know, in terms of esteem, what I think about you and the valuable advice and services you have provided in the past and have stated as much. Yet and still, I have an issue that concerns me and over hte weekend I hope to articulate it to you either by email or even here if you prefer.

    If I am either wrong, misguided, or mistaken; there is absolutely no one that will apologize quicker than I will. You see, I don’t have a healthy ego and stating when I am wrong is both, my Christian and manly obligation and responsibility. I don’t mince words and I don’t use weasel words to confuse the issue. There is no one on this site that I either want to or need to impress; I mean they weren’t born with me and chances are they will not die with me, so as I said, if I happen to be wrong, my apology will be commensurate with your disappointment in my comments.

    In Chrst,

    Charles

  62. Charles D: healtheland@lpemail.com

  63. Diane said

    Healtheland,

    Concerning 1 tim 3, our Lord Jesus taught in Matt 23:8-11 “But you, do not be called Rabbi; for One is your Teacher, the Christ, and you are all brethren…” Here Christ reveals His will for His followers so 1 Tim 3 must be referring to function not hierachy. God’s gifts and fruit will be evident in faithful mature believers. Humility, wisdom, and faithfulness to Christ and His teaching is what should be exemplified in the gatherings of believers.

    Faithful believers who have made attempts to restrain, warn and restore a grown son/daughter who refuses to walk in the Light of Jesus are not disqualified by Christ to continue faithfully proclaiming His truth. A believer’s own sin will quench the Spirit of God, and disqualify, because they cease to be a light.

    And yes, The Words of Christ are preeminent. All must submit and bow to Him. They are more than just “red letters”, they are the Words from the very Son of God. He has the Words of Life.

  64. Diane: Thank you very much sister in Christ. Now my mind has a lot of more questions for you, but the Holy Spirit is telling me that I am not to play the role of some interrogator shining a light in your face putting you on the spot and demand that you ask questions in order to force you to prove something. Oh well, I guess that will have to wait for next time :-) So I will ask of you only one question. You said “Faithful believers who have made attempts to restrain, warn and restore a grown son/daughter who refuses to walk in the Light of Jesus are not disqualified by Christ to continue faithfully proclaiming His truth.” That is true. And that is also not in conflict with anything that IndependentConservative said. IC’s position, however, is that being in such a condition would merely disqualify a person from serving in a position of church authority, i.e. bishop, priest, pastor, or elder (which to my knowledge are the only offices that scripture creates). A person can – and should! – preach God’s truth and word without holding a church office. As a matter of fact, that is what I say regarding women that have the various gifts of exhortation, prophecy, discernment, wisdom, evangelism, etc. … they can use those gifts for God and the Body of Christ without having a position of authority in the church.

    Now this is where it is going to get heavy! I honestly cannot see where the position that IndependentConservative is advocating is practical without 5 Point Calvinism! It is only possible if a sovereign God predestinates and elects. In such a case, God would “choose” a pastor by “giving” him children that will be believers. If God has for His own sovereign reason given a man children that are not his predestinated elect, then that is a clear sign that God by His same sovereignty has not called that man to be a church officer, and as such that man should do the same as a woman, which is to find another role to perform church service.

    So my question to you is: what are your thoughts? Personally, I am having a difficult time getting a handle on it, because I am not a five point Calvinist! :-)

  65. Charles D. said

    IC: My God works in mysterious ways, His wonders to perform. At Comment 58 you asked me a question about your motives and in your very next sentence, you answered it there. What I said about the Apostle Paul, that he was an evangelist as well as the 13th Apostle (as he referred to himself), I did not asked a question, rather, I stated it as a matter of fact in the face of what you had to say on the matter. I consider that matter closed. At least as far as I’m concerned it is.

    Now, regarding your motives, other than what you say in the first sentence of comment 58, (which by the way I agree with you whole-heartedly, I haven’t a clue as to your motives, at least not all of them, YET! But what I do know is that everything you had to say about speaking in tongues in your post on the same subject, is total unadultrated hog-wash.

    My point to you is that what’s discussed here is absolutely important. I have no agenda and you cannot find an agenda on ANY post and attribute it to me. You on the otherhand indict yourself. It is you that stated (pasted from your actual post): “If I messed up, anyone feel free to offer correction.” Well, you messed up when you allowed the potential of misleading someone to exist. What you say here is read by infant christians and unsettled seekers alike.
    Check the Bible first, then, you will not have to speak so authoritatively with caveats.

    Again, your motives, I don’t have a clue and maybe you don’t have a clue either.

    Charles

  66. Charles D.,

    I was not asking you what your agenda was. What I did in comment #58 is known as a BLOCK QUOTE. I was answering to Healtheland, not asking you the question.

    But what I do know is that everything you had to say about speaking in tongues in your post on the same subject, is total unadultrated hog-wash.

    So are you speaking in “tongues” Charles D.? You feel you have the gift?

    I think if you could show what you feel is the truth, you would have already done it.

    I have no problem offering exposition on scripture and I have no problem leaving the door open to being corrected either. But if you had correction to offer you would have done it. So far you’ve not shown this truth you feel you have. Just keeping it all to yourself, hey?

    Allow me to repeat myself with one of those block quotes:

    If I’m wrong or anyone else, than show us what you’ve found in scripture and spend the time in discussion with us.

    Just sitting around saying someone is wrong is meaningless. If you’ve got the truth, say it.

  67. Charles D.,

    I’m going to make a statement below in bold letters. I feel the statement is 100% truth. You tell me if it’s hogwash.

    Christians were NEVER ordered to pay “tithes” and any Christian that does NOT pay 10% of their paycheck is NOT robbing God.

  68. Diane said

    HTL,

    Your example of Samuel is a perfect example. His sons were so wayward, that Israel decided they wanted a king instead. Ultimately God is perfect and He is our Father, yet Adam and Eve sinned. This is not a reflection on our Righteous Father Who hates sin.

    I think another area of misunderstanding we may be having is due to how we define Church. I believe “where two or three are gathered in My Name, I AM in the midst”. While believers are gathered in His Name, the Holy Spirit’s gifts are present and operating without holding an official position. When a person lives a life of self-denial, abides in the Words of Christ, and follows Him, it will be evident, and the Holy Spirit, through their lives and words will convict and lead others to Christ.
    So my understanding of Jesus’ words to Peter to “feed MY sheep” would be pastoring. Feeding as in “teaching them to observe all things I have commanded you” not in any type of authority over.
    To lovingly pull a brother to the side in order to restore, and sincere prayer for one another,is also a function of oversite, not a authority over position. This topic we may disagree on as well, but I’m thankful for your willingness to hear a different point of view.

  69. Diane – OK, so you feel the RED letters mean more than any other words in scripture. So what about John 16:12-15?

    Christ promised he would tell the apostles MORE. Now if He told them MORE and we treat their words as LESS than the Red letters, haven’t we reduced portions of the very Word of God?

    Fact is, the apostles were given MORE by the Lord Jesus, this is why their writings in scripture are on par with the very words of Christ and the prophets. All scripture is of EQUAL weight.

    Now, to answer your question:

    Independentconservative, do you believe you can remove the very Words of Christ or believe that Jesus’ commands do not apply to you concerning how you communicate with other believers?

    I feel Christ’s words apply to me.

    I feel my statements to you were totally in love and as gentle as could be offered given what I’ve seen from your other comments in other threads. You dilute scripture and reject proper instruction when a brother like Healtheland offers you the truth. Your abuse of the Word of God is not to be taken lightly, so I speak to you with strong words of admonishment.

  70. johnkaniecki said

    Independent Conservative thank you for pointing out the fact that Paul was an apostle. He also was an evangelist and a preacher among other things. But the point is well taken that Paul as an apostle had aspects to his ministry that an evangelist wouldn’t have had.

    Healtheland, not to get picky but please read I Peter 2:9. Every believer is a priest just like every believer is a minister. By minister, I mean all believers have a ministry. Minister isn’t equivalent to preacher or evangelist though language does change over time which causes confusion.

    These facts are actually very important. Unfortunately due mainly to the Roman Catholic Church there has been a seperation between preists and lay people in some people’s minds. (I use the terms as the Roman Catholic Church uses them in the previous sentence.) This is absolutely wrong and very dangerous. This encourages a person to say “Well he’s a preist and it’s his job to do God’s work.” No! No! No!!!!!!

    Every believer has some gift of the Holy Spirit given by grace that they are to use. Whatever we have we must use towards the glory of God.

    A priest has no special place of authority because when the term is used as the Bible uses it, it refers to all believers.

    On another related topic the word “saint” as the Bible uses it means believer as well. Another misunderstood word thanks to Catholicism.

    One day I would like to discuss the perversion of the word “holy”. This word to has attained an incorrect meaning as well. But I will save that discussion for another day.

    I really don’t know why these lengthier blogs where the topics seem to shift and change digress into personal attacks and accusations. I think it is excellent that many topics are discussed and that various points of view are presented. Even if I feel somebody if totaly incorrect I still appreciate their blog because it helps me learn how other people think and believe. Knowledge is a powerful thing as is understanding. I wouldn’t want anyone to feel offended or intimidated by peoples comments because that would discourage their participation and would be a loss to us all.

    But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be entreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and withou hypocrisy. James 3:17

    Let me now say that the views stated above are made with other blog conversations on Healtheland in mind as well.

    Love,

    John

  71. Diane: I am a HUGE ADVOCATE of the house church movement, so we agree on that point!

  72. johnkaniecki: I agree with everything that you said. I am also fascinated by your thoughts on the perversion of the world holiness as well. I have been trying to work on a post on holiness for quite some time but cannot get it finished. Maybe you have the missing information. Also, I sincerely hope that I am more conciliatory on my comments than I am on my posts, because the comments are meant to serve a different purpose than the posts :-)

  73. Charles D. said

    IC: Your response to both, Diane and me were much more sedate and civil than your previous post, and therefore you came across, in a better light and better vein. I am a very hard working man, maybe 14/15 hours per day. When I come across certain posts, often the Spirit comes over me and I am challenged to respond in defense of the (not God, Jesus, or the Holy Spirit) because they neither need it from me or want it from me; HOWEVER, all 3 expect me to be a defender of the faith.

    The one thing I do promise you, since you feel that I maybe “scripturallly challenged” is to respond to your October 26th approx 9PM post in it’s entirity; hopefully over the weekend, but, in any event before close of business Monday. As I said, I am a hard working person and in the words of the Apostle Paul (you remember him), if a man doesn’t work..he shouldn’t eat.

    I refuse to close this post before answering two of your questions, well actually, one question and then you ask if I believe that “tithing is “hog-wash.”

    1) Do I have the gift of speaking in tongues? NO! I do not have the gift of tongues, but, I have been in churches and occasionaly still visit churches where tongues were spoken. Not everyone, mind you, but a few in the congregation. I do not believe that everyone that I have witnessed speaking were actually speaking in tongues; but I will not say that the speaker did not believe that they were not speaking in tongues. My major point directed to you is: since tongues and the speaking thereof is very prominently mentioned in the Bible, with very positive conotations and impact, e.g., 1COR 12:10, then you were very disrespectful of the Holy Spirit, and from the moment you used the words “babbling” not only did you cease to edify, you became a useless vessel while so doing. You would do well to review another couple of verse in Corinthians found at 1:19 which says in pertinent part: {…I will destroy the wisodm of the wise; the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate”

    Regarding the below statement that you posed to me, which by the way is not puzzling, in fact it really simple:

    OIndependentConservative: October 26th, 2007 at 9:45PM wrote

    “Charles D.,
    I’m going to make a statement below in bold letters. I feel the statement is 100% truth. You tell me if it’s hogwash.Christians were NEVER ordered to pay “tithes” and any Christian that does NOT pay 10% of their paycheck is NOT robbing God.”

    Christ is the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow (in the biblical sense) and the words He spoke more than 2000 years ago amply answers your quiry as He was speaking for me but not me alone: A Christian should render nuto Ceasar what belong to Ceasar and to God those things that are God’s. Really doesn’t matter what I think because the facts were settled on on Cross.

    However; for reasons of intellectual exchage: I believe you can have $500 in your pocket and you give $50. as your tithe, but have a greivous spirit, because you owed exactly $500 on that pickup truck, then it is my belief that God appreciates your gift less well than if you had given $1, or even one-tenth of a dollar with a cheerful heart. Furthermore, now please remeber not to take your next air in-take for granted as most do, when you render unto God the things that are Gods’ it include, but, is not limited to your very next breath.

    Again, I do not have the gift of tongues, however, the Holy Spirit has seen fit to bless me with the gift of discernment.

    In Christ
    Charles

  74. johnkaniecki said

    Charles,

    The gift of tongues causes great controversity. I know this for certain that if one speaks in tongue there should be an interpreter. That is scripture.

    I was taught that tongues were a thing of the past and that in fact it had only occurred in the church of Corinth. Tongues I was told ended when the Bible was finished. Furthermore I was also taught that what had happened in Acts 2 was not what was going on in Corinth. I don’t necessarly believe these statements but they are something to consider. I would certainly like to see scripture addressing these points.

    I spoke in tongues once. I spoke a sentence in perfect Italian. The person who listened to me understood what I said and told me what I said. I told my friend that I would try to speak in Italian again but he discouraged me for some reason so I didn’t. That person was in awe of me and paid careful attention to whatever I said from that point on. Not that I appreciated the awe but I did like the fact he listened carefully.

    I know some people, like Harold Camping of Family Radio would teach that any supernatural occurance like I had experienced would have come from the power of the devil. Of course Harold Camping has predicted the end of the world and also the end of the church age. (Healtheland, why nothing on Family Radio yet? Perhaps it was something I missed. He has a following you know.)

    I know two believers who are both pastors who speak in tongues. They are very kind, loving people with a zeal for God. I’ve never been to their churches so I don’t know exactly what goes on.

    As regards to the Independent Conservatives babble statement which I have read but now can’t find the exact log. In my opinion sometimes people in churches do babble claiming it is speaking in tongues. My friend Frank experienced this phenomana. The people were just repeating jibberish over and over again. His description led me to invision a chorus of nonsense. I too experienced speaking in tongues twice that I would consider babble. One was at a Charismatic church another at of all places at a Roman Catholic church. These people repeated either the same word or the same phrase over and over again. I find that hard to believe that it was the tongues of angels. It just defies what I know about languages. I certainly could be wrong and perhaps they were repeating one important word over and over. There was nobody to interpret. I know the people speaking in tongues distracted me from hearing what the person speaking was saying. Both the priest in the minister in my personal
    experiences encouraged the speaking in tongues.

    I Corinthians 14 is where the Bible speaks about this issue. But to get the context start reading in chapter 12. Chapter twelve is a natural break in thought where Paul in the King James version begins with now. The chapter numbers and verses were of course added later and though helpful, one must read before and after the chapter to get the full thought. Sometimes people read the chapter and get the wrong idea because they loose the context. Chapter 15 in my opinion begins another thought with the words More ever.

    Charles why do you work so many hours? Hard work is certainly an admirable trait. I am curious what you do. I have worked long hours sometimes as well and overtime. But it is never on a regular basis. Perhaps you have your own business as my sister and brother in law do. It’s hard for them sometimes with long hours as well. And of course there seems something that always needs attention.

    Love,

    John

  75. Charles D. said

    johnkaniecki:

    I was really edified by your comments. For a second, I could not for the life of me, remember who Harold Camping was though I listen to him often. Not for edification, mind you, rather, I have heard the gentleman spew both false and bad doctrine so often, I listen to hear if really believe what he says and for how long will an organization (the size of Family Radio will allow suspect doctrine along with mis-intrepretation of scripture to go on.

    I am completely edifed by your comments because I discern a relationship associated with ta ministry of some sort or formal biblical studies. I know for a fact, that what you say about tongues, you are on solid ground. Where we might be in disagreement, and if I understand what you’ve said is: speaking with the tongues of angels is not the same as the gift of tongues, rather to me it was used for (description purposes only), as Paul instructed the “churches” on the relative importance of love. I believe he used “charity.”

    I certainly believe every word you have spoken about your experiences with tongues and those around you that spoke, or, said they they spoke in tongues. I tried to convey the same thing (though I might have done a poor job); that though I have been in churches where some spoke in tongues. I don’t believe everyone actually were. I believe some were, some actually thought they were, then, there were some who said they were, but, knew in their hearts that they had not. I further believe that there are many that desire to speak in tongues, even try to, but fail to realize that speaking is the total province of God and the Holy Spirit to dispense and bless and They choose.

    Finally, I am not a small business owner though I have been and the organizations continu without me. I am a public servant in the federal government that both, believe in and love my Lord.

    Hope to speak with you later on your comments at post #74. I look forward to it.

    Be Blessed

    Charles

  76. Well I don’t know Charles D. Is it working hours or your original reason for not saying anything? Given you once gave this reason for your lack of a substantive response:

    IndependentConservative “if I messed up,” alone is sufficient evidence that you should speak (where infant christians might accept your ravings as gospel, only when you are willing to accept the consequences of leading someone astray. You are wrong on many points and I do not care to, almost in the words of the Apostle Paul ” make you appear ignorant, brother.

    Or are you just taking time to look things up or get some advice? I really don’t know. But how about this. Rather than telling people “you’re wrong” with absolutely no substance from scripture to support yourself, hold off your response till you can offer something of substance. Because you’ve still not said much at all and whatever “spirit” has you speaking of no significance is not good.

    There is something BETTER than 1 Corinthians 12:10 and you can find it in 1 Corinthians 13. You might debate if I have it, but I do know its the best to seek and I don’t spend time addressing this with you out of some form of spite. So “prominence” is not exactly something like tongues, you’re dwelling on a lesser gift. As has COGIC, AoG and others. Which draws from moving into better, because there is so much focus placed on what scripture notes is lesser in terms of spiritual gifts.

    So I’m not being disrespectful to the Holy Spirit, I’m calling out the fake because many are bearing false witness on activity of the Holy Spirit and it’s pulling masses of church assemblies into deception.

    And actually, it’s the babbler who does not edify and is sounding like a useless vessel, 1 Corinthians 14:6-9

    Regarding my question on the matter of “tithes” Charles said:

    A Christian should render nuto Ceasar what belong to Ceasar and to God those things that are God’s. Really doesn’t matter what I think because the facts were settled on on Cross.

    I believe you can have $500 in your pocket and you give $50. as your tithe, but have a greivous spirit, because you owed exactly $500 on that pickup truck, then it is my belief that God appreciates your gift less well than if you had given $1, or even one-tenth of a dollar with a cheerful heart.

    So you feel we should give to God what is his, what does He desire from us? You also mentioned paying a tithe cheerfully. So you do feel that the instructions given by organizations such as COGIC and AoG to pay 10% cheerfully is correct.

    Let me show you what God wants, Hebrews 13:8-16

    8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

    9 Be not carried about with divers and strange doctrines. For it is a good thing that the heart be established with grace; not with meats, which have not profited them that have been occupied therein.

    10 We have an altar, whereof they have no right to eat which serve the tabernacle.

    11 For the bodies of those beasts, whose blood is brought into the sanctuary by the high priest for sin, are burned without the camp.

    12 Wherefore Jesus also, that he might sanctify the people with his own blood, suffered without the gate.

    13 Let us go forth therefore unto him without the camp, bearing his reproach.

    14 For here have we no continuing city, but we seek one to come.

    15 By him therefore let us offer the sacrifice of praise to God continually, that is, the fruit of our lips giving thanks to his name.

    16 But to do good and to communicate forget not: for with such sacrifices God is well pleased.

    We give to help poor saints, give to help those who labor in the ministry, but there is NO fixed percentage and what is called a “tithe” today is a man contrived system that DOES NOT reflect what was done under the old covenant. In short, there is no such thing as a “tithe” for the church. Never did the apostles instruct giving of any sort of “tithe”. In fact, you can search the entire Bible and NEVER will you find ANYONE paying 10% of money wages from labor. And plenty of people were making money, including Mary and Joseph who did NOT pay tithes.

    Yea I tossed you some bait, to gauge what you’ve been taught. Because you’re expressing much bravado and I wanted to see if it was more than just simple bravado.

    I don’t claim to be perfection, but I do think that if we can actually get into a discussion of scripture that I might be able to offer you some information of value to your walk with Christ.

  77. Regarding tongues of angels, 1 Corinthians 13:1 does not affirm that angels speak any different language from humans, just that if Paul has the lesser gift of tongues and does not have the greater gift of love he is nothing. Throughout scripture, angels speak and it’s in normal human languages. When God made man he gave man the ability to speak a language. While tongues were confounded in Genesis 11, this was after the flood and no language on earth has been of the form we see used in babble that is called tongues by some today. All true “tongues” are a language used on planet earth.

    All gifts of the spirit are tools for ministry to the lost and/or edification of the church body. None are for individual self enrichment and 1 Corinthians 14:1-5 is all about pressing the saints at Corinth to seek to edify the church, not themselves. It starts with seeking to have saints edify the church and because there is talk about tongues, many are focused on tongues rather than what honestly edifies the church. Christianity is about denial of self, not self indulgence. God was not having Paul to claim anyone should seek to speak in tongues for their own self enjoyment and it’s confusing the devil either. The spirit intercedes on our behalf whenever we pray with groanings too deep for words, Romans 8:26-27. So it would be IMPOSSIBLE for man to imitate the words of spirit.

    The gift of tongues is for human communication of the Gospel, not self edification.

    Johnkaniecki, while he does not have the gift of tongues, may have had an honest moment where he spoke in tongues to help an unbeliever and that is noted in 1 Corinthians 14:22. Or perhaps they claimed to be a believer before and were actually in doubt? Or they offered the interpretation that helped to edify all who were there, but Johnkaniecki notes an instance of an actual language, not babble. I would call this a momentary miracle from God as when someone is healed although nobody around them has the “gift of healing”. I’ve heard other accounts of tongues that fall in line with scripture although none have been confirmed beyond what someone claims occurred. But for the very most part all that is called tongues today has been babble. All that has been actually recorded is total babble. All claiming the gift of tongues have been unable to speak to any unbeliever of another language.

    Dwelling on this lesser gift has caused many to waste time instead of growing in the faith.

    Now lets look at all the gifts of the Holy Spirit:
    From 1 Corinthians 12 we have:

    1. Word of Wisdom
    2. Word of Knowledge
    3. Faith
    4. Gifts of healing
    5. Effecting of Miracles
    6. Prophecy
    7. Distinguishing of spirits
    8. Various kind of tongues
    9. Interpretation of tongues

    The list is expanded in Romans 12:

    10. Serving
    11. Teaching
    12. Exhortation
    13. Giving
    14. Leading
    15. Mercy

    Notice the list features activities that are done in interaction with others. Because the Christian faith is about HELPING OTHERS. So babble of no functional use that is called “tongues” is utterly purposeless. This is what 1 Corinthians 14 is all about and why that chapter opens with “but rather that ye may prophesy.” And while tongues would be a nice gift to have, prophesy even more so and this is repeated and it is noted that tongues means nothing if you can’t interpret to edify the church, 1 Corinthians 14:5-13. Pay particular attention to 1 Corinthians 14:10. Any languages are of significance. If someone is babbling something that NOBODY IN THE WORLD CAN INTERPRET, THAT IS OF NO SIGNIFICANCE, IT WAS NOT TONGUES IT WAS FAKE!

  78. johnkaniecki said

    Charles,

    No I don’t know I don’t know if the tongues referred to in I Corinthians 13 where Paul mentions the tongues of angels and then parts in 14 are connected. This I think I can say soundly from scripture, is that in the Church of Corinth people were speaking in tongues and they were quite out of control. They were speaking in tongues more than preaching the gospel. Paul admonishes them. First of all that if they speak in tongues they should have an interpreter. Secondly it would be better for the church if they preached.

    What I was referring to was Acts chapter two where the Apostles spoke in the Hebrew tongue and everybody listening heard it in their natural language. Acts two lists all the nation’s present. While I am fairly confident that Acts 2 is something entirely different from I Corinthians 14 there are similarities. I never examined it that thoroughly though now I have learned a little more. Both events were done by the power of the Holy Spirit. I’d still like to see other scriptures about the matter if anyone could find them.

    To answer your question about formal I took one semester of Greek at Seton Hall University which is a Catholic School. I then took three courses at Alliance Theological Semminary in Manhattan. These were in Church Planting, Preaching, and Introduction to New Testament. I passed all these courses. Then I took a course in Evangelism and Apologetics and Isaiah at they Nyack campus again with the Alliance church. These last two courses I never completed and failed. I am a member of the Church of Christ and I studied with Curtis Stamps of the Whippany Church of Christ who has passed away. Curtis was a very humble man and taught me many important things.

    But I feel the best teacher is the Word of God itself. I learn a great deal from others and find it is worth listening to everyone. However not only do I examine the scriptures or ideas presented I examine the life that person leads. A person who doesn’t live a Godly life doesn’t really understand scripture, though he may know and can quote many scriptures.

    I wouldn’t recommend seminary to people though I must say that all my experiences with it were excellent and rewarding. This is just my opinion. I must say that in my life I have heard so many lies and that I have been deceived about many many things. Discovering the truth about things is always a good thing. It is the devil who needs his lies to mantain his evil influence on this world.

    Thank you for your kind comments and let us to remember to always give God the glory. I’m glad that you are a believer and work for the Federal government. I am still curious as to why you work so many hours.

    Love,

    John

  79. Rob said

    Speaking of Tongues…Have any of you ever heard of Robert Zerhusen? He presents a unique view of tongues at link http://homepage.mac.com/shanerosenthal/reformationink/rzacts.htm

    Makes for some very interesting reading and gives some rather “different” interpretation of “tongues” on the day of Pentacost.

    This seems to be where all the confusion about tongues developed, in Acts 2.

    It’s been a common interpretation that all the people from:
    (9:Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia,
    10: Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes,
    11: Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God)

    ALL SPOKE DIFFERENT LANGUAGES BECAUSE THE ALL CAME FROM DIFFERENT REGIONS. According to Zerhusen, This is not the case. These people only spoke one or two languages.

    Please READ and not what he has to say about how the apostles didn’t speak in the High Language as those visiting were expecting to hear a message in Hebrew. Very INTERESTING! I think He may be on to something.

  80. Fran said

    In I Corinthians 12,13,&14, Paul is clearly giving information,explanations,examples,instruction
    correction,& devine order to those at Corinth. There is no where in scripture that says tongues has ceased.

    There are many counterfeits in the world. There are many denominations in the world. There are warnings on following man,and not following the gospel of Christ Jesus.

    There is no way that the carnal mind is going to be able to understand the things of God. God is Spirit, we are to worship God in Spirit and Truth. The Holy Spirit is our teacher, and reveals the things that are Spiritual Truths to us, not of our own intellect. You can read Cor. a thousand times, reason & logic with it, but reason and logic are not used to understand the Truths of God.

    The Holy Spirit is our teacher, He reveals the word to us, opening our spiritual eyes and ears so that we may have understanding. Why did Jesus say to those that have eyes and those that have ears, let them hear what the Spirit is saying?

    Read Jude 1:20, an allow the Holy Spirit to finalize things in your heart.

    In Crist
    Fran

  81. Fran, do you feel that praying in the Holy Spirit means to pray in tongues? What about giving in the spirit? Or loving in the spirit?

    I did explain this to you in response to your question in another post.

    There our friend Charles said that one day someone would rise up against me. And Charles has danced on giving a response with scriptural foundation here regarding what he says I’m wrong about. But he’s got plenty of time to speak about other matters.

    Folks, pray knowing what you said, that’s praying in the spirit AND with understanding.

  82. Diane said

    Independentconservative, I think, at best, we can agree that we strongly disagree about what our Father’s will is in many areas. Unfortunately discussion with you in other areas also proves to be unnecessarily divisive.

  83. johnkaniecki said

    Rob, Fran,

    Thanks.

    Love,

    John

  84. johnkaniecki said

    Fran, Rob,

    Thanks.

    Love,

    John

  85. Rob said

    “Tongues from a detective’s point of view”:

    http://homepage.mac.com/shanerosenthal/reformationink/rzcolumbo.htm

  86. Here is scripture based proof of why praying in the Holy Spirit DOES NOT MEAN to pray in tongues.

    Ephesians 6:14-20 KJV

    14 Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness;

    15 And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace;

    16 Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked.

    17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:

    18 Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints;

    19 And for me, that utterance may be given unto me, that I may open my mouth boldly, to make known the mystery of the gospel,

    20 For which I am an ambassador in bonds: that therein I may speak boldly, as I ought to speak.

    Verse 18 (written by the same hand that wrote 1 Corinthians 14), it is noted to PRAY ALWAYS in the Spirit. This would mean that ALL PRAYER would need to be performed in tongues if those who claim praying in the Holy Spirit means speaking in tongues during prayer. It is mentioned to pray for other saints. Which means one WOULD HAVE TO KNOW WHAT THEY ARE SAYING. This couples with 1 Corinthians 14:14-15 where Paul notes that to pray in tongues means his understanding is UNFRUITFUL and he will pray in the spirit AND with understanding. This means pray in your normal language. It has to, or how else can you knowingly pray for saints in the Spirit? Paul also solicited prayer for himself. Again the people praying needed to speak a language they know in order to pray for him in the Spirit.

    And although I’ve said it before, I’ll repeat Romans 8:26-27. (Written by the same hand folks, Paul’s as inspired by God.) Where it is noted that the Holy Spirit intercedes on our behalf, because Christ knows the mind of the Holy Spirit and as we know Christ intercedes to the Father, Hebrews 7:25. This is all according to the will of God. The whole fullness of the Trinity is at work each time a saint prays. You’re praying and the Spirit is interceding because we don’t know how to pray as we should.

    Philippians 1:18-20, it is noted that prayer and the provision of the Lord’s Spirit will cause all to turn out for good no matter what.

    James 5:14-16, The prayers of a righteous man avail much. How can this be? Are the righteous to pray in tongues each time they pray for a sick person? That is not noted and never mentioned that prayer must be performed in tongues. The prayer of the righteous avails much, because each time a righteous person prays the intercession I noted above is made in the Spirit. The righteous pray with their understanding, while the Spirit is making intercession. This is how it works. We all pray in our known language and have seen instances where a prayer is answered. How so? The Spirit’s intercession on our behalf. Which means when we pray with our own understanding in our own regular language, that is also prayer taking place in the Spirit because of the Holy Spirit’s intercession.

  87. Charles D. said

    IndependentConservative Says:
    October 27th, 2007 at 2:18 pm

    “Well I don’t know Charles D. Is it working hours or your original reason for not saying anything?”

    Actually, IC my comments regarding my work/hours were directed to John, in response to his question directed to me. Now! If you do what amount to open John’s mail, then, thats entirely up to you, however, please do not take editorial liberties with anything that I write because anyone can easily see that you have yet to master simple sentences and words association, grammar and spelling, to say nothing about logic.

    You say: “So ‘prominence’ is not exactly something like tongues, [you’re dwelling on a lesser gift."]
    I ask you, since when are any of God’s gift the lesser, IC?
    You further says that:["I’m calling out]the fake because many are bearing false witness on activity of the Holy Spirit and it’s pulling masses of church assemblies into deception.”

    Great works you’ve taken on, influencing whole church assemblies and the masses! Frankly, given what is known of you now and what is known about some false witnesses; you may not realize it, but you’re running neck in neck with the false witnesses.

    You say (and, I haven’t a clue what those acronyms COGIC and AoG mean, however it is customary to write out the words first, then, it’s okay to use acronyms): ["Let me show you] what God wants..” and “[Yea I tossed you some bait], to gauge what you’ve been taught” and “I don’t claim to be perfection, but [I do] think that if we can actually get into a discussion of scripture [that I might] be able to offer you some [information of value to your walk with Christ."]

    Your comments that I have bracketed sort of remind me of the reason Lucifer was kicked out of Heaven. PRIDE! I’m going to ascend higher than God!; I’m going to do this, I can do that……… Were I a greedy person, I would try to buy you for what you’re worth and sell you for what you think you’re worth. You say that I do not back up what I say with Scripture. I’m going to break that rule this once: “Answer a fool according to his folly, or he will be wise in his own eyes” thats from Proverbs 26:5.

    IC, I will definitely pray for you and add you to my church’s prayerlist.

    In Christ,

    Charles

  88. Charles D. said

    My Dear Sister Fran, Diane, John and Rob: you all are kind and patient in that you are able to maintain your Christ-like demeanor in your responses to others. It is trying to suffer unrelenting “wisemen,” and I truly admire your abilities to do so. I pray that your kindness and patience endure, under the circumstance. Be Blessed

    Charles

  89. Fran said

    Saying all of that , Know show the scripture that tells us that tongues has ceased.

  90. Saying all of that , Know show the scripture that tells us that tongues has ceased.

    No one here ever said they ceased, me included. Nobody has shown they honestly have the gift of tongues or healings or miracles today. Healings and miracles do happen at times as the Lord wills, so there might be actual instances of tongues, but none has been confirmed, not in a way that healings and miracles have. There are products of Azusa around the globe claiming to be able to speak in tongues and not once have we seen footage of one being able to speak in tongues to an unbeliever of another language. Azusa missionaries went to India and were unable to minister to anyone using their supposed gift of tongues. Azusa is what birthed both the COGIC and AoG denominations, Black and White respectively. But we do know that saints do not pray in tongues, as Paul noted as God had him to. For those who actually had the gift of tongues they were admonished against trying to pray in tongues. You pray with your understanding so you know what you said and the Spirit takes care of the rest. We also know that tongues has a function and purpose that does not involve self edification. We know tongues are a real human language, used to communicate with others of another language or if done in an assembly accompanied by interpretation and judgement. Whatever was said in tongues should be an actual language used on planet earth. We also know that tongues are not required to show someone was baptized in the Holy Spirit and even when it fell on Christ like a dove He didn’t speak in tongues, also no tongues are noted in scripture like Acts 8.

    Knowing these things, we know that we’re seeing a whole lot of fake mess and need to be honest about it. False witness is being made on activity that is NOT of the Holy Spirit, but falsely being call activity of the Holy Spirit. And too long too many saints have been misled to do things like babble in their closet. Too many saints have been misled and placed into activity not honestly of God and it has caused nothing but confusion and division, that is NOT of God and it should be exposed.

    Before Azusa claims of tongues were very sporadic and seldom. After Azusa and the false teaching made about tongues that brought that into being, people all over claim they can speak in tongues, while they can’t come close to the qualifications noted in 1 Corinthians 14.

    So we’ve had just over 100 years of false witness being claimed often regarding the Holy Spirit. That’s about 100 years too long.

    I know my words upset some here. I was where you all are at once. I once was babbling away, and spoke against anyone who claimed it was wrong. Then I had to read the Bible more and realize what you’re often being told over the pulpit is not in scripture.

  91. Charles D. said

    Fran I KNOW you to be a Godly woman and that God has blessed you in a mighty, mighty way. I would encourage you to totally disregard that question posed by IC, because similar to his “babbling” question posed to me, he might be “tossing you some bait.” Which within it self. speaks volumes about what he know and where he evidently is in his daily walk (though) I will not say his walk with whom, or, in what direction he travels, because it is evident in every post in which he is involved.

    Again, you will notice the all too familiar Prideful and self-important idiocy, e.g.,: “I” “I am” “I have” “I will” BUT, he is our brother and friend, albeit the kind that we keep locked in the basement while entertaining friends and other relatives. You gotta love the man, insecurities and all.

    Charles

    “Fran, do you feel that praying in the Holy Spirit means to pray in tongues? What about giving in the spirit? Or loving in the spirit?

    [I did] [explain this to you] in response to your question in another post.

    There our friend Charles said that one day someone would rise up against me. And Charles has danced on giving a response with scriptural foundation here regarding what he says I’m wrong

  92. Diane said

    Charles, I was actually admiring your willingness to subject yourself in order to reach out. God bless you.

  93. Diane said

    Charles, I was actually admiring your willingness to reach out. God bless you.

  94. Charles D. said

    Thank you Diane.

    What amazes me about the God we serve, among other things, is the way in which He addresses our issues and concerns in the most personal way. For instance, today’sermon focused on loving difficult people. Also, I included IC in my prayers and during altar call. The scripture references during both the praise and worship services provided insight and tools with which to maintain focus on the only thing that really matters; Jesus.

    Again, thank you for the words of encouragement and the fellowship.

    Charles

  95. Charles D., I just noticed you asked me some questions. So I will answer those now.

    You say: “So ‘prominence’ is not exactly something like tongues, [you’re dwelling on a lesser gift.”]
    I ask you, since when are any of God’s gift the lesser, IC?

    What is love when compared with gifts such as tongues in 1 Corinthians 13? Why did God have Paul to recommend people seek prophesy over tongues in 1 Corinthians 14?

    Great works you’ve taken on, influencing whole church assemblies and the masses! Frankly, given what is known of you now and what is known about some false witnesses; you may not realize it, but you’re running neck in neck with the false witnesses.

    You have not offered scripture to back such a claim. You have not shown what I’ve said to be false using the Word of God.

    You say that I do not back up what I say with Scripture. I’m going to break that rule this once: “Answer a fool according to his folly, or he will be wise in his own eyes” thats from Proverbs 26:5.

    Please strive to use scripture more often.

    You call me your brother and at the same time call me a fool. Brother, I’ve tried to help you and offer you scriptures, to support truth and you call me false. I don’t say this to belittle you, but consider Matthew 5:22.

    Perhaps we can close this dispute with this, no matter how much you disagree with me or whatever, please just take time to read more scriptures. Call me whatever you care to call me. Just read more scriptures for God’s glory.

  96. johnkaniecki said

    Charles,

    Please pray for my wife Sylvia and me too!

    Independent Conservetive one not about the scripture from 1 Corinthians 13, please read the whole thing.

    “Charity never faileth: but where there are prohpecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.”

    As I was discussing with my wife you cannot use this passage to say tongues have ceased. If you do so then you could also rightly say knowledge has vanished away. We would all agree I think that knowledge as of yet has not vanished.

    Also thank you for mentioning that what occurred to me may have been a miracle. I feel quite blessed now and have never considered that.

    Love,

    John

  97. Johnkaniecki – As I mentioned in comment #90 above. I have not said tongues “ceased”. God wills what he wants when he wants. I am saying that most of what we see now was born out of the 1906 Azusa incident. Some call it a revival, I call it an incident, because there the false doctrine of having to speak in tongues as proof of having the Holy Spirit was born. And although not everyone carried it to that degree, the fake babblings that we see today are the product of that and have been going on since then, falsely being called tongues. I’m not saying nobody ever will and I’m not saying nobody has, but I am saying that what is occurring today has strayed very far from scripture. All claiming the “gift” of tongues fail to exhibit the gift when put to the test and we are to test the spirits. If someone has the gift of tongues I suspect they are off in some distant land ministering and will do the Lord’s work till death without us ever knowing their name. So I’m not saying they ceased, just those boasting they have it are fakes. And then there are miracles such as what you likely experienced. Miracles are what I see happening more than someone having a gift of say “healing”. God just willing what He wants in isolated incidents. If someone had the gift of healings they’d clear hospitals out and we’d know about it really quick. If someone has it, like I said, probably off in some remote area we know nothing about.

    Your account of speaking in tongues is not something you claim to be doing all the time, but daily, at least twice a week not just in America but around the planet we have fellow saints who are falsely claiming a move of the Holy Spirit. Entire assemblies running in continued error and thinking its making them come closer to God. And of course it gets to a point where offering correction causes the person offering it to be scorned.

    Also Azusa created what is called the “altar call”, yet another bad piece of doctrine. The altar is where animal sacrifices were made and the man made altar was done away with after the resurrection of Christ. There is no more altar because there is no more temple of man made materials. Our bodies are the temple and any altar within it would be our hearts giving sacrifices of praise to God, but people are being misled into thinking they are touching a “high holy place” within a building. It makes the building a false idol. The so-called “altar” is nothing but a step and it’s sad that new converts are pressed to feel the humiliation that comes with being the “sinner in the house” if they desire to meet the minister and ensure they’ve properly accepted Christ. They are told to go to an altar that is NOT an altar. People are even putting money on the step thinking they are doing some great deed, it’s Old Covenant and never an instruction for the church.

    These things of fake tongues and fake altars were not around till Azusa and its related products. I detail the altar issue in this post in the “Fake Altars” section.

    From Azusa came the idea of having women in church leadership.

    Also from Azusa came the concept that if you are not healed of a physical ailment you lack faith. Really that started at Azusa with claims of mass healings that were never independently confirmed, just like Benny Hinn does now. And not many years after Azusa Smith Wigglesworth met an AoG (Assemblies of God) lady who supposedly had him speaking in tongues. Like most Azusa products he never was found to speak to anyone of another language. Wigglesworth pressed the notion that you are not healed unless you have enough faith and it became ingrained in what we know now as the WoF doctrine.

    One incident in 1906 has caused churches world wide to fall into erred doctrine of various types. All the JUNK you see on TV today with only the exception of the money angle was born out of Azusa, but given the level of error, for someone with profit motives to add a money hook is no surprise. The money hook comes out of Roman Catholicism along with the concept of Christians paying “tithes”. A whole different topic for another time, but Azusa blended with a spin on the old Catholic money hook is what you’re seeing today.

    This is why it’s so important for people to read the scriptures.

    The apostles never told anyone to claim there was an “altar” in a building. God had Paul to admonish mishandling of tongues. We know the apostles never condoned women in church leadership OR THE NO GOOD MEN we see claiming the posts today. The apostles never claimed someone lacked faith for physical healing and James 5:14-15 never claimed the person being prayed for needed a certain degree of faith, rather the person praying must be strong in the faith. Christ said by a person’s faith in some cases, but this involved them having faith in Him and anyone seeking the Lord has faith or they would reject Him as we see some in scripture did.

    (I’m just mentioning what is below for your own knowledge in case you run into the type of person I mention below.)
    Finally I’ll mention, that while I don’t feel tongues have “ceased”, the Lord does as he wills. When referencing 1 Corinthians 13:8, if speaking to someone who feels tongues actually have “ceased”, telling them about this passage of scripture may not help them at all. Because in Greek the term used for “ceased” is different from the term used for things like “vanished away”. Meaning that there is no indication that both tongues and knowledge will continue till the same exact end point. One could end before the other. Basically, if someone does not beleive you, you’re going to have a hard time convincing them, especially if they are aware of the Greek terminology, it only reinforces their error in assuming tongues have ceased when we have no proof of that. Usually, learning the biblical Greek is good, but for someone with a mind walking in error, the more you give them the bigger a deceiver they become. Fran’s question is best, scripture never says tongues ceased and we have no reason to assume they have. We just know when it honestly occurs that there are a strict set of indicators that lets us know if they are real or fake.

    (OK I said finally above, but one more thing.)
    At Azusa, people into the occult felt very comfortable at those meetings, so we can’t see what happened there as honestly being of God. The whole thing started on bad doctrine to begin with. When people who are into witchcraft are comfortably in attendance you can’t trust the outcome. And when Azusa missionaries went to India, their tongues didn’t work. They were unable to minister to anyone despite their claims they had the gift of tongues. And you can see the same on any “religious” TV network probably tonight.

  98. Rob said

    Nice Job, IndependentConservative!!! NICE Job.

    Like you said, I didn’t read in any of your posts where you said tongues have ceased.

    I guess sometimes people hear what they want to hear.

  99. IndependentConservative:

    Now Azusa Street is credited with sparking a revival that resulted in the evangelization of millions, especially in the third world, and reviving a fundamentalist and evangelical Christianity that had been stagnating into liberalism. I dare say that most of the people that went into the various charismatic movements came out of the Baptist (not Southern, Reformed, or Primitive!) and mainline denominational churches that went left and basically dried out into apostasy. I honestly wonder where the American church would be had it not been for the charismatic and holiness revivals, and whether the gospel would have reached all those third world people.

  100. Diane said

    Healtheland, I think a good topic to discuss would be on the history of revivals.

  101. Catholicism is credited with spreading a Christian message to millions too. Your point? Just because a cult spreads does not make it good. I feel if movements in bad doctrines had not increased, God’s children would still be called to Him via whatever means God wills. But God uses things that are not of Him to sometimes call His own. The 1611 King James Bible for example. King James was really into the occult, but he had a translation of scripture made that proved beneficial to saints. Who knows how many saints can credit that version of scripture with helping them? And newer translations have their own sources that can be mentioned, but just the same they’ve had benefit. So God can do His will and does in ways that we could never imagine.

    These pimps claim all the people they say they “have brought to Christ”. As if calling them out “means somebody won’t get saved”. Keep in mind I am a firm believer in predestination. I feel minus all the mega-madness, that Christ would still OPEN DOORS NO MAN CAN SHUT to spread His message via saints.

    Do you know that there are people who come out of Azusa types movements and learn they were not really saved, because they didn’t even know the true salvation message? There really are people thinking they can buy God or if they do certain deeds they’ll be saved. There are people who claim they spoke in tongues who find they honestly never had a grasp on the salvation message. Because the Azusa style is not Christ centered preaching. It’s emotion centered preaching.

    The Azusa style has taken the world by storm, but I don’t find it to be a good storm. There were Christians before Azusa and there would be Christians if the Azusa style was turned from tomorrow.

    And while many people claim the Lord’s name, we know the true number of saints is less than that.

    Azusa directly birthed the Church of God in Christ (COGIC) and the Assemblies of God (AoG). Plus yes others went back to their own already established assemblies with the bad doctrines. This is why Paul Morton split and made his own Full Gospel Baptist denomination, because the National Baptist Convention (denomination) was not charismatic enough for him and the direction he desired to move in. (I’m not saying people in these groups are not saved, but bad doctrine causes some to stray and shipwreck. People can even sit under sound doctrine and not receive the truth of the message.) Morton desired to make the MOST out of the Azusa style and has done it.

    Some people found Christ through Azusa and Martin Luther used to be a Catholic. I say like Martin Luther, just because the seat is comfy does not mean reform is not needed. Over 100 years of Azusa is 100 too many.

  102. Diane – See the post already on this blog titled: The Pentecostalism Movement Was Started By A Homosexual Klansman Mason!

    That’s how it started in America.

  103. I am no longer of the opinion that claims of numbers saved equates to good doctrine or a movement that should be endorsed. Because the Catholics claim big numbers you know.

    Considering Matthew 24:24-25, high numbers are not at all necessarily a good sign.

    God never told me to walk in numbers, but in Truth. Scripture shows me the remnant were always the ones who found the narrow road.

  104. Charles D. said

    johnkaniecki I don’t know how I could possibly have missed your Oct 29th posts. Of course I prayed for you and Sylvia as soon as I saw your post. Be Blessed and through Christ Jesus see a prayer answered.

    Diane; why? When we are having so much wisdom dispensed here!!!

    Rob: Nice Suck-up. He said it, I read it, and that settles it! Probably doesn’t matter to you because you obviously do not speak in tongues. But to God’s blessed people that do, it was offensive and IC Grieved their spirit unnecessarily so, and I stand with God’s people and if necessary, fight with them too. Of course using the full armor of God; unless IC change the rules of engagement and I so down with that as well.

    Come on Rob, give the devil, I mean IC, his due or next he will deny everything he’s ever said about Azusa because he has already started laying the ground work.

    BELIEVERS IN GOD EVERYWHERE! Do not fear Independent Conservative, or, otherwise, sell your souls or what you believe in. You all know right from wrong; you know good from bad; and “fdalse teachers are not limited to either the ones referenced in the Bible, the names of those mentioned here frequently, or even IC, who is a false teacher of the highest order. Don’t castegate him, however. You are supposed to treat him the same way you are supposed to treat the denominations that he froth from the mouth about: 1) You don’t support them, 2)you don’t finance them, but you allow them to live in peace unless they attack you.

    God has gifted each of his own with a conscienious. LISTEN TO IT!!! You know when something is right, if not, you certainly knows when something is wrong! Be not afaraid to stand up for the God you say you serve. I know I will and whom, it doesn’t matter…..The Lord WILL deliver them into your hands.

    These are the latter days folks, be careful to whom you listen to and more importantly, be very careful about your spiritual in-take

    My prayers are for you all,

    Charles

  105. Charles D. said

    In my comments at 94 I said I had prayed for IC during church services on Sunday (actually, I have both before and after church on Sunday).

    I think I know what is the appropriate Christian response when someone prays for you? Read IC Comments at #95 and remember: “Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.” Matt 7:20

    Charles

  106. Charles D. said:

    …unless IC change the rules of engagement and I so down with that as well.

    You’re like a gem a minute. If only you’d spend some of this time in the scriptures.

    Come on Rob, give the devil, I mean IC, his due…

    Wow! I’ve received an upgrade from fool to the devil. Charles D., your discernment could use adjustment, but that only comes via study of the scriptures.

    IC, who is a false teacher of the highest order.

    Brother if I’m false, you’re going to need to prove it with the Word of God.

    The Lord WILL deliver them into your hands.

    Charles D., are you an old covenant stand up comic? Well I guess a sit-down comic since you do it via PC.

    Now Charles, regarding your continual posts with claims of saying prayers for me and claims I bear bad fruit, it’s really time we cut through that mustard. Because you’re really blowing up with some bad fruit in that regard. You have continually blabbed about these prayers, when the Lord Jesus Christ said:

    Matthew 6:1-15 (King James Version)

    1 Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them: otherwise ye have no reward of your Father which is in heaven.

    2 Therefore when thou doest thine alms, do not sound a trumpet before thee, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.

    3 But when thou doest alms, let not thy left hand know what thy right hand doeth:

    4 That thine alms may be in secret: and thy Father which seeth in secret himself shall reward thee openly.

    5 And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.

    6 But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.

    7 But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.

    8 Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him.

    9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.

    10 Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.

    11 Give us this day our daily bread.

    12 And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.

    13 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.

    14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:

    15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

    There’s only one way to know what is righteous and that is by taking time to study scripture.

    2 Timothy 3:16-17 (King James Version)

    16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

    17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

  107. IndependentConservative: So it was a bad thing that resulted in some good for some individuals. Fair enough.

  108. God always makes sure that everything works out for the good of His children.

  109. IndependentConservative: Come on man, go ahead and say it. For the good of His predestined elect :-)

  110. :lol:

    Who should make our call and election sure, by doing as He commands as best we can ;) .

  111. IndependentConservative:

    As I still have one foot in the Arminian camp and the other in the Calvinist camp, I will allow my fellow charismatics to weigh in on that one :-)

  112. Diane said

    Charles, I haven’t read the post that IC recommended, yet, but I plan on it at sometime today I hope (after the comforting, correcting, cooking, shopping, cleaning here at home). But I think an honest look at the history of revivals other than through the filter of reformed believers is necessary.

    A person who has been raped, and abused may have a hard time understanding what a healthy relationship looks like. So when people speak about things like “the baptism of the Holy Spirit” or “the gifts of the Spirit” in a negative way or in a way that minimizes our need for it, they are generally speaking from what they have been taught by man, fear, or an abusive situation from an over zealous christian trying to “manufacture” God’s work.
    I think we all agree that that is wrong, but when a person, who hasn’t experienced the Holy Spirit in that way, goes out on a crusade condemning the genuine along with the false, prayer and truth are needed.

  113. Diane said

    Oh, Charles if you could pray for my grandson who is in the hospital. He has been in critical condition for 2 weeks now.
    I can’t tell the exact details, because what happened to him is a crime, and under investigation. Your prayers for him would be greatly appreciated.

    Your sister,
    Diane

  114. Healtheland – I don’t consider myself to be of “Calvin”. Although I understand what you’re saying. (Honestly I don’t read much from Calvin at all and only heard of the man because people accused me of following him and so I had to see who they were talking about. Now I have seen a piece or two of his that I’ve found to be sound exposition of scripture for the given topic, but I don’t read much of his material.)

    I always keep this in mind:
    1 Corinthians 3:1-7 (King James Version)

    1 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.

    2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.

    3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?

    4 For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal?

    5 Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man?

    6 I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase.

    7 So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase.

    To me the matter of predestination or free will or some combination of both is a VERY inside debate. I mean, I can worship in the same assembly with folks that take the Free Will view all day long and have worshiped with folks of that view often even in more recent months. But the Azusa, faking calls of the Holy Spirit! Sorry, I can’t remain in an assembly doing that, because that is something scripture specifically admonished against.

  115. Charles said

    Father God; my heavenly father, I pray in Jesus’ name that you would touch and heal Dianes’ grandson. I pray that your will in his life be realized that that he suffer, neither hurt, harm or danger.

    Father, I pray this not as a public prayer for my sake, or even for the sake of those who would attempt to minimize your word and your perfect will. Also, God my father, there may be some that happen upon this page, can agree with me in prayer, and pray for this child in numbers that are both pleasing to you and will bring glory to your Holy Name.

    We don’t know the exact nature or all of the details; nor should we. You are an Almighty, all Wise, and all Powerful God, balancing the diverse actions of man, while at the same time, controlling all that you have created. Since the dawn of creation, You Dear Lord, knew all alone, that I would at this time in history…utter this feeble prayer to your listening ears, and have already moved in such a way that is consistent with your will in this event. I pray not only for the child Lord, but also for Diane and her family; her family both, by blood and by marriage. It is in the name of your Precious Son and my Savior that I pray……shall it be so.

  116. Charles said

    IndependentConservative: Four things that are happening, no have already happened TO YOU, and you do not even realize it, yet. Everyone that has been attacked or chided by you will know these truths, so you need not deny it.

    Of course I prayed for you! It is not a matter (at least for me), to either claim something regarding prayers to my Lord and Savior and not do or have done them. It profits me nothing; but then, it wouldn’t do you a lot of good either.

    I can help but notice that though you always ask me for the Scriptual basis for my statements, in the same post that you say you notice that I claim to have prayed for you; that not one time do you either acknowledge the Scripture reference that I included Matt 7:20. Rather, you went directly after what I said for the “worldliness of it all” that will make you look good and all knowing. Vain man that you are.

    Next no longer do you attack me in the manner and way that you use to as recently as Sunday (the 2nd day I had prayed for you. Where I am concerned: you are a toothless tiger, neutered, and bound! You are no match for the woed of almighty God! And that game you play of grieving the hearts of those who love the Lord, or, are seeking His way….you better watchout. “Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting” (Gal. 6:7-8).

    You say that I don’t quote scripture, you sir, are not ready for scripture. You need need repentance and God’s forgiveness. Now, what you forget (if you’ve ever known it), it that scripture, the Word of God cuts both ways. It is a two-edged sword.

    Finally, I am sufficiently far along in my walk with my Savior, that I don’t always quote scripture because normally, I am not in an environment where either my intentions are my motive require quoting scripture. If the truth be told, I’ve probably forgotten more scripture than you will ever know. But, I will tell you this one thing: I live the scriptures and speak the scripture in that it is often times interwoven in my everyday speech, actions, and deeds.

    With you sir, you are the exception. Not in recent memory have I ever been “rightous indignant,” and you are fairly fortunate. I do not feel in any way remorseful or insecure about my discourse with you. Just be glad that I am not from tradition of Saint Peter AND that you still have both of your ears as far as I know.

    God be with you,

    Charles

  117. Charles, anytime you’re ready to bring that scripture based response to all the things you claim make me a false teacher, go right ahead.

    You are actually going to have to refute my points made here with exposition of scripture and thus far you have not addressed a single point.

    How about you go back to all these claims of me being in error, or even start over here and actually expose this error with rightly divided scripture. Because if you can’t show otherwise, you’ve sat on your hands while watching others take in what you feel is in error.

    Thus far you’ve provided scripture that relates to one in error, but you HAVE NOT shown me to be that person because you HAVE NOT addressed any point I’ve made YET. So scripture you’ve cited could very well apply to YOU rather than ME. And there’s been over 100 comments here already.

  118. Charles said

    IndependentConservative; at least half of your name seems right, politically. Isn’t it the Conservative that coined the phrase “plausible deniability?”

    Whats the point of engaging you in comment, debate, or simple discussions. I’m come to learn in the comments posted at this particular thread, that you will back-peddle and deny saying what you have already said. You have in fact said that, tongues had ceased. You have said it to me. Now, that you are again challenged by someone else at Comment # 90 you now say: “No one here ever said they ceased, me included.” Oh! Also, you said it to Fran as well.

    With you, it is always: “I am no longer of the opinion that claims of numbers saved equates to good doctrine or a movement that should be endorsed. Because the Catholics claim big numbers you know,” as you do in Comment 103. Either you are an idiot, retarded, have Alzheimer’s, or, maybe all three. There are places that can help you. But it is no longer interesting, challenging, edifying, to contribute to your miniacle waywardness.

    God be with you,

    Charles

  119. You have in fact said that, tongues had ceased.

    Please show us the comment here where I said that.

    Yea the Mormons claim big numbers too and they even say they are Christians and “saved”…

    Charles D., don’t do what I mentioned you should do for me. Do it for Rob and others you claim I’ve deceived.

  120. And I find your turn on Rob to be especially sad.

    Given you started speaking to Rob, who HAS NOT ONCE SAID A WORD TO YOU with this statement:

    My Dear Sister Fran, Diane, John and Rob: you all are kind and patient in that you are able to maintain your Christ-like demeanor in your responses to others. It is trying to suffer unrelenting “wisemen,” and I truly admire your abilities to do so. I pray that your kindness and patience endure, under the circumstance. Be Blessed

    Then once Rob supported something I said.

    You came at Rob WHO HAS STILL NOT ONCE SAID A SINGLE WORD TO YOU DIRECTLY, with this:

    Rob: Nice Suck-up. He said it, I read it, and that settles it! Probably doesn’t matter to you because you obviously do not speak in tongues. But to God’s blessed people that do, it was offensive and IC Grieved their spirit unnecessarily so, and I stand with God’s people and if necessary, fight with them too. Of course using the full armor of God; unless IC change the rules of engagement and I so down with that as well.

    Come on Rob, give the devil, I mean IC, his due or next he will deny everything he’s ever said about Azusa because he has already started laying the ground work.

    You’ve come short on scripture but strong on the personal attacks. I might be “an idiot, retarded, have Alzheimer’s, or, maybe all three”, but for a man who has “probably forgotten more scripture than” I “will ever know”, you have yet to show I’m this false teacher you claim I am.

  121. Charles D. said

    I wonder why it is that you have all of the nice editorial tools on this site? Everyone who have read or tried to follow your cultish line of reasoning, know as well that you pose no threat in compentency or computer skills.

    Unlike you, I will speak up for what is right and denounce what I preceive as wrong or unsettling. Now! Rob is a big boy, he can speak for himself. However, knowing that you need and will eagerly accept any and all help you can beg, borrow, or steal; up to and including Satan himself, if you thought it would make you appear to have a double digit IQ.

    You cxan fool some of the people some of the time, yada, yada, yada. I am very secure in who I am and for sometime now, I’ve known who you are and what you’re capable of doing.

    Unlike the days preceeding August 2007, now you just sound patheic.

    Charles

    You will still be you as in,

  122. Charles D: Did not get your email. You may have to resend.

  123. Rob said

    Boy, Where do I to start? This lengthy email is not to insult the intelligence of those who participates in this discussion as I know that you all are very smart individuals who seem to know what the LORD requires for the most part…But I’ll just get right to the point…

    Charles, YOU ARE PATHETIC!!! AND YOU NEED TO BE EXPOSED AS SUCH!!!

    Just some minor reflections on just this blog alone (if your you can let your eyes be the mirror to reveal the prideful spirit you have shown in your language and conduct…TAKE NOTE:

    INDEPENDENTCONSERVATIVE:

    Posts #1 $ 2 – Titus 1:5-6 (King James Version); 1 Timothy 3:4-5 (King James Version) to try to convey the qualifications of a leader / Leviticus 18 to show homosexuality as an abomination. (SCRIPTURES USED IN CONTEXT).

    Post #4 (Acts 8:20 to show that to levels beyond even what Simon attempted.

    – Which by the way, I agree with – not because I’m sucking up – but because Simon only wanted to but the Gift, TD is selling the gift, falsely deceiving many with itching ears along the way …See….I have INDEPENDENT Thoughts..

    Post #6 – Supported Titus 1:5-6 with an illustration..

    Post #9 – Agreed that the mention of Jake’s son, only revealed something about Jake’s internal alignment with the Homo Movement.

    Post # 16 – Said “ What we would have is REAL church leaders.” If we get rid of the false ones…(Sounds pretty logical to me, Don’t you agree?)

    Post #17 – Asked a question about a blogger’s thought on TD Jakes.

    Post 24 – Deferred to GCMWatch as respect for his expertise. Mention of Scripture Text Proverb 22:6

    Post 27- Addressed my Question with an answer from scriptures- 2 roles of leadership in the church…

    Post #29: Understood my “independent thought” when I said that TD JAKES is not a Christian Leader, He’s a false prophet.

    Post #37: Used scripture reference to show Paul was an apostle, and that Men like Timothy and Phillip were evangelists, 2 Timothy 4:5, Acts 21:8. An evangelist and apostles are not the same in the 5 fold ministry, Ephesians 4:11.

    Post #77….

    YOU GET MY DRIFT – This guy (IndependentConservative) has been very godly in his approach and the responses he wrote.

    No, I’m not praising men, but you shall know a tree by the fruit it bears…

    CHARLES D:

    Here’s what you have written in your overall attitude you’ve displayed…

    Post #40 – IndependentConservative used an illustration in his post #37 to show his understanding of Church Leadership per the verse he mentioned (AGAIN GET IT, per the VERSE HE MENTIONED!!!) and gently asked for other to give input “if he messed up”. You come off with the irrational response citing this “ministry of money” which you can not nor validate using scriptures, and pompous attitude about how you don’t want to make IC appear ignorant. And what about this “tearing Jakes a new one”…YOU ARE INCREDIBLE!!!! (Seek Christ to remove the scales over your eyes so to see the sins of your flesh).
    Then you close by saying “I love God for real”, OKAY!!! If you say so. Sure don’t act like it.

    Post # 60 – Notice the subtlety of you own pride in mentioning that “YOU HAVE A BIBLE HERO named DAVID”. PAT ON THE BACK Charles D as you must have some very long arms. And again, the self-righteousness when you said “You each personally cannot possibly find anyone that knows me and who will not tell you about, no, lecture you about my devotion, first to my God and my lord and savior Jesus Christ and Him crucified.” Count the many times YOU USED “I” just in this post alone. And you talked about IC. This is the type thing that Jesus referred to when he talked about “taking the beam out…”

    Post #61 – AGAIN Look at the times you used “I”.

    CHARLES D, Do you see a pattern in your disposition? Wait…There’s MORE….

    Post #65 – You couldn’t believe that IC was answering his own question in Post 58 by saying of himself “Obviously not to equip anyone”? He was talking about this as according to your perspective. AGAIN your blinders, is not allowing you to see even YOURSELF!!!

    UP TO THIS Point IndependentConservative is correct in that YOU HAVE REFERENCED ONE SCRIPTURE VERSE!!! IC on the other hand has mentioned several. O I know even the devil (you did refer to him as the devil you know) can quote scriptures, RIGHT? But I tell you one thing a strong and mature Christian will use scriptures to quote and live by.

    You talk about how IC misspells words…WHAT A JOKE…I mean I am no grammar expert or great speller, but I’ve noticed several “errors” in your writing. Have YOU ever heard of SPELL CHECK?

    I mean I can go on and on. But I think most readers see that you are vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind.

  124. Charles D. said

    Rob, Rob, Rob
    I earnestly believe your closing comments; “I mean I can go on and on.” I sure you can, and will, as soon as IC gets back to you. All I can say is, Wow! the things silver bus nowadays.

    Charles

  125. Rob said

    Whoa,

    Now comes the conspiracy and the paranoia. And therein the “ministry of money”, as the things silver buses nowadays.
    Charles, Charles, Charles…I thought you said you have the “gift of discernment”.

    I never adressed IC on any posts and if you recall, my first address to IC was in post #13 to show somewhat of a disapproval as labeling / associating TD Jakes as a Christian Leader. IC saw the point I was making as he replied in #29. Now you are determined in your mind that I’m being pais to make comments?
    WOW!!! There is another thing YOU CAN NOT PROVE!!!

  126. Diane said

    IC,

    I read the post that you recommended. I do believe everyone agrees that sexual immorality and racism is wrong and should be condemned, no matter what the denomination. Teaching that a believer MUST speak in tongues, in order to know that they have experienced the baptism of the Holy Spirit, is also a teaching I believe to be false.

    The statement that “the Pentecostalism Movement was started By A H********* K****** M****” is a derogatory statement against God Himself. The outpouring of the Holy Spirit didn’t begin with a man born in the United States.

    I have run across some of the most gross and hideous behavior by people professing to be baptist. A prominent Baptist preacher for over 20 years involved in h******** (I will not repeat all the evil committed by this man)! Another baptist pastor sentenced to 179 yrs in prison for the most monstrous acts of child abuse possible. I can go on and on.

    I have also met some of the most Godly men and women who were baptist, pentacostal etc. Christianity didn’t start with these men and won’t end with them or us.

    Healtheland, I was thinking of revivals recorded from Adam – present, in order to examine why they waned (we know because of sin), why some lasted longer than others, examine the effects on society as a whole. I think overall it will encourage more prayer and repentance.

  127. Rob, Charles reminds me of those who once exposed claim you’ve “touched Gawd’s anointed…” And they always claim anyone who disagrees with their view is of “the devil”. Never offering rightly divided scripture to prove their points.

    I don’t think spending much more time with him would yield much good at this point. The issues are obvious at this point and he needs to hurl some insults to feed his ego, with being able to say he had the last word.

  128. Charles D. said

    Rob, Rob, Rob, obviously my discernment failed me in two regards. I had pegged you as fairly smart. Lets see, does trying to expose someone for being “pathetic make any kind of sense to even you? “Charles, YOU ARE PATHETIC!!! AND YOU NEED TO BE EXPOSED AS SUCH!!!”

    You have to admit that babbling does have an IC twing. Now, lets see if I have this right. We are now on post 125, and you make reference, pardon me, an offer of proof, about post 13 and 25. NEWS FLASH! Had I followed that many postings involving either you or IC, I’d be as miniacal as he and now you seem to be.

    Rob, up to this point, you seemed a fairly nice guy and I have said so. But now, you’re reaching. Now, concentrtae on faith issues and be well. You will get zero pursuing the road you’re attempting to embark upon except frustration and heart aches.

    Be Well,

    Charles .

  129. Diane:

    I did not state that the outpouring of the Holy Spirit was caused by a man. I was speaking specifically of the movement started by Charles Parham, who trained William Seymour, who started Azusa Street. There were outpourings of the Holy Spirit that had nothing to do with Parham in Britain, the Ukraine, Africa, etc. I am a charismatic myself, and I differ from IndependentConservative (and have told him as such) in that I believe that unknown tongues as well as the offices of prophet and apostle still exist today, because I have found no Biblical evidence to state otherwise, and because of my own experiences with charisma, including prophetic dreams and faith healing. IndependentConservative has produced what he considers to be evidence, but I interpret those scriptures differently. We don’t contend over it save from time to time because we agree on far more than we disagree. But right is right and wrong is wrong, and I cannot support Charles Parham. And by the way, I do have a post on here about the Southern Baptist child molestation scandal: http://healtheland.wordpress.com/2007/02/22/southern-baptist-child-molestation-scandal-growing/
    I aspire to have no biases, because I have no agenda to promote other than the cause of Jesus Christ.

  130. Diane – Healtheland made the statement you claim to be derogatory and I think from his work here it’s obvious he was speaking of what is commonly called the “Pentecostalism Movement”, not work of the Holy Spirit. I think the Lord sees the point Healtheland is making and knows he’s a man contending for the glory of God alone.

    The issue is one of doctrine. Seeing if what is being professed is in line with scripture. We see the movement was birthed from false doctrine, by a man who clearly was not a child of God. And so bad fruit was produced. Children of Satan are in all things that claim to be of God. And we were warned they seek positions of influence.
    2 Corinthians 11:13-15 (King James Version)

    13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.

    14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.

    15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

    However, the saints are to remain rooted in sound doctrine and avoid what is false, Ephesians 4. If a church assembly is rooted in sound doctrine, when issues do arise, the process for addressing them in clear. Scripture is always the foundation for knowing proper instruction. So when some saints stray into bad doctrine scripture is the guide to help fellow saints out. What’s even worse than the church leader who abuses someone’s body is the false teacher who abuses souls and causes saints to engage in activity that is not productive.

    As for the future. Scripture does not tell us we’ll see a wave of “revival”, but rather the opposite, 2 Thessalonians 2. Saints are to always contend for the faith, but we know scripture MUST be fulfilled and for this point it does not involves a global “revival” that will turn everyone to Christ, although saints will continue working to minister the gospel to all parts of the earth. The one the masses WILL follow, will be the one who sits himself up as God, but is actually the anti-Christ.

  131. Rob said

    IC,

    I had already made up in my mind not to follow up with any more response here with Charles. Did you get a chance to read the article by Robert Zerhusen in one of my previous post? Have you ever heard of the guy?

  132. Diane said

    I agree with you about Parham, where I differ, would be that Pentecostalism started with him. Another reason I suggested a post done on revivals is because when people only read the negative it does more harm, than good (to warn is good, but when the positive is not presented it leads to error and fanaticism).

  133. I have not heard of him. I’ve only skimmed what you posted, but will try to read it in more detail.

  134. Diane:

    Positive posts on revivals? I have them, especially regarding the Gospel For Asia movement in India and thereabouts. I also have started to nibble around the edges at the revivals started by John Edwards (Sinners In The Hand of An Angry God) and John and Charles Wesley (Methodism) and will expand on those topics in the coming weeks.

  135. Fran said

    Charles,

    Do you know whether or not Jakes son lives on his own

  136. Charles D. said

    Hell-o Lady of God!

    Missed hearing from you. I have an aswer for you but I will use alternative means of getting it to you. Some strange things are going on with the site. I’ll explain later; and what I’m doing about it.

    In Christ,

    Charles

  137. Charles D. said

    IC you too cannot leave well enough alone. I have to assume that you ran into trouble with a verb yesterday, that, or you didn’t want to get a spiritual bloody nose. I have come to, either forgive or overlook you. You like to divert the younger types but I for one find your use of English and sentance pattern a dead giveaway of your age group.

    That and my keen “discernment” have a lock on you. You tell me if I’m close: am moved to believe that IC is an undereducated cad (probably 10th grade or lower), older than 55 and possibly 70+, originally from either the deep, deep South or Appalachia (West Virgina most probably; would rather spend eternity in Hell than next to a Black man for a short while, hence, most of the topics on his site comes to “race,” oh Yes you are a racist par excellance. I picture gray hair (but not necessarily so, somewhat over-weight for his height, wear glasses. Probably chews tabacco or dip snuff. Denim is his favorite grab, but, not the mordern types. Sunday clothes, if any consist mostly of corduroy and high top shoes.

    How am I doing?

    Charles

  138. djenk23 said

    ummmmm IC is a black man,lol…I believe that he does something software related…which definitely throws the uneducated thing out the window..looks like someone needs to see God for a discernment tune-up,lol..

  139. Djenk23 – Please let him keep going. I was enjoying it :lol: .

  140. Charles D. said

    djenk23/Alterego

    Listen HTL wannabe, it’s common knowledge in certain circles that you are not above submitting posts in “names” bith here and on ur website. Alos, know that software related does not require education credentials of any sort.
    IC you have more personalities than “Sybil,” thing is, we never know which one will show up. BMA excuse my French.

    Charles

  141. And what’s the question I ask Charles D. when he makes accusations about me? PROVE IT!

    Because if I’m Djenk23, you’ve got more than 2 blog’s worth of posts and days of debates we’ve had at times to explain.

  142. I didn’t know what that little acronym was that Charles D. used in comment #140 above (October 31st, 2007 at 7:37 pm)

    IC you have more personalities than “Sybil,” thing is, we never know which one will show up. BMA excuse my French.

    It seems that little piece of French from our friend Charles is not something the Holy Spirit gave him to say!

    Charles, this is a Christian blog in case you forgot.

    It continues to become clear:
    Luke 6:45 (King James Version)

    45 A good man out of the good treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is evil: for of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaketh.

  143. djenk23 said

    you dont have to be formally educated to be software development…..but you certainly need to be able to read and comprehend…show some analytical skills….math….and even then, everyone who has those skills cant do it….i should know…I’m a ColdFusion/ASP developer myself….and I’m know a lot more about software development than some of my colleagues who’ve went and gotten bachelor degrees in CS….as for me and IC being the same….lol….all you’d have to do is do a search on Pulpit Pimps or Healtheland to see where we’ve bumped heads…but I digress….the topic has been derailed enough…

  144. Charles D. said

    IC/djenk23 You did not say SW Development, you said: ” I believe that he does something software related…” Believe!! Now you know for certain. Also, IC the requirements for SW Development is not as you’ve stated. I don’t have a beef with the personality “djenk23″.

    Okay, personality #1; get your mind out of the gutter, if you don’t know what BMA means, then, just ask. Promise we won’t think you less intelligent for asking something that you do ont know. THEN, after reaching your comfort level, maybe you will also ask questions about scripture, which conversely, you do not know.

    Do your self a favor and remove the comment #1 from your website by the 16 year old that again, expose you as writing many of your own comments.

    Be well guy(s)! I encourage visitors to this site to pray for you as well.

    Charles

  145. Charles D.:

    IndependentConservative and djenks are two separate individuals. I have encountered both users on another weblog where they had a friendly disagreement on an issue.

  146. Charles D. said

    Hey I guess that settles it then!!!!! HTL you lost my confidence in you regarding the “before I apologize matter.” Not that I either need or even want one (and I said as much). It speaks to core character. You came to IC’s rescue then and you’re coming to it now. What amazes me is ….naw, I’ll let IC tell you. But I have a question for you: Does the man seem insecure to you, or, just me and a few others.

    Be blessed My Brother

    Charles

  147. Charles D. said

    HTL 2 questions, please.

    Why do you suppose IC and djenks would feel the need to defend IC Blackness??? Can you tell me what I’ve said (see below) in my discernment of him that is either limited to race either way?? Seems the Spirit convicted him and he and those that follow him have on spiritual blinders/veil. And what’s so amazing about the God I serve is: djecks in his defense of IC’s “IN-T-LECT” raved on about his own. The one thing I can say is djecks is not an objective reader, or thinker, and that smacks of IC.

    And you my brother, the same way, “you do not apologigize until” With me never again vouch for someone unless you have absolutely, positively, 100% unadultrated proof positive. What I said was:

    my keen “discernment” have a lock on you. You tell me if I’m close: am moved to believe that IC is an undereducated cad (probably 10th grade or lower), older than 55 and possibly 70+, originally from either the deep, deep South or Appalachia (West Virgina most probably; would rather spend eternity in Hell than next to a Black man for a short while, hence, most of the topics on his site comes to “race,” oh Yes you are a racist par excellance. I picture gray hair (but not necessarily so, somewhat over-weight for his height, wear glasses. Probably chews tabacco or dip snuff. Denim is his favorite grab, but, not the mordern types. Sunday clothes, if any consist mostly of corduroy and high top shoes. How am I doing?]

    Charles

  148. Charles D.:

    I refused to apologize because I committed no offense worth apologizing for. At no time did I attack or defame your character or person or say something that was not true, but rather challenge your doctrine.

    “Charles D.: “Can a man know the mind of God? Only so much as He is willing to reveal! Why would we or should we be surprised if there were 3 resurrections?”

    That is not the point really. We cannot just fly off and say what we want or choose to believe. We have to follow scripture. If there is no basis in scripture for saying that there are going to be three resurrections, then we cannot and should not claim or preach it.”

    Claiming that you deserve an apology based on that is unsupportable in any context, unless your position is that challenging and disagreeing you is inherently evil.

    Second, Charles, making the claim that djenks and IndependentConservative was very irresponsible. It is something that you have no way of proving as true if you are right but easily disprovable if you are wrong. As it turns out, as the administrator of this weblog who can view the Internet identification data of each poster, I can state from that alone with 95% certainty that djenks and IndependentConservative are separate people. Another 4.99999% is based on the fact that I have seen djenks and IndependentConservative participate on at least two other blogs, and the two fellows have A) different personalities and B) somewhat differing theologies and as a result disagree from time to time. Third, IndependentConservative was actually among the first people to contribute on this weblog, doing so on a day or two after it was created in early February. Djenks on the other hand first began participating a less than two weeks ago, coming over because he saw where I linked to a discussion that he was having on another blog and wanted to try me to see if my doctrine was consistent on the issue. IndependentConservative 1. has long known that consistency is a big thing for me, 2. has little regard for the issue that djenks saw fit to challenge me on and 3. has a differing opinion from djenks on that issue.

    So, unless you are making the case that the personality behind IndependentConservative and djenks has a split personality disorder or is so detached from reality that he does not realize that by arguing with himself he undercuts his own position (and djenks does in fact oppose IndependentConservative’s views on IndependentConservative’s own weblog, which you, er, perhaps need to visit … http://independentconservative.com), then your assertion that the two are the same needs to be changed because it does not line up with the evidence that I have at my disposal, and a lot of other people for that matter.

    Finally, my doing so was not “coming to IndependentConservative’s defense”, but rather simply stating a 99.99999% certain fact, correcting your error, and doing so for your benefit and not his. Also, I RARELY defend commenters. Instead, everyone who participates on this forum has to stand on their own based on their knowledge of scripture and its reflection in the life that they lead. If a person is deficient in either, it will quickly become apparent, but if a person is strong in both, then they do not need me to defend them. If a person’s position is scripturally based, they need no defense from me.

    If a person is out of line with scripture, is lacking in scriptural knowledge in that area, or their life does not reflect what scripture says in a matter, they need to just admit as such and move on. Incidentally, I have no problem doing this myself. Go to the post “Someone Explain Amillennialism To Me.” You will see that almost immediately receiving the first reply, I saw that I was out of my league. So I mostly abstained from participating in that discussion on the thread that I started on the weblog that I administer, and instead let the people with superior knowledge on the issue have at it! It is something that I find myself doing quite often, but I do not mind, because this weblog is as much for my edification as it is anyone else’s!

    The only exception that I make to the “I generally do not defend people” policy is people like John Kaniecki, who are capable of defending themselves but due to their personality and theology refrain from doing so, and even then that is rare. The main thing that I remember is that I do not need to take sides because I am on the Lord’s side, so everyone that is in Christ is on my side already. As you are indeed and in fact a born again Christian, that is something that you need to remember. You are on my side, Eden Hadassah’s side, and IndependentConservative’s side whether you like it or not. So even if IndependentConservative is “an undereducated cad (probably 10th grade or lower), older than 55 and possibly 70+, originally from either the deep, deep South or Appalachia (West Virgina most probably) … I picture gray hair (but not necessarily so, somewhat over-weight for his height, wear glasses. Probably chews tabacco or dip snuff. Denim is his favorite grab, but, not the mordern types. Sunday clothes, if any consist mostly of corduroy and high top shoes” (and the available evidence is against that as well … you honestly do need to visit his weblog to see what I am talking about), the fellow is on your side, and you are just going to have to deal with it.

    Listen Charles. We are born again Christians, but we are PEOPLE, very flawed human beings wrapped in sinful flesh with sinful passions and emotions that live in a fallen world. People live in different places and cultures and are going to have opposing views. You have read the Old Testament, about the real flaws in people like David, Moses, Abraham, Jacob, Isaac, etc. And you have read the New Testament about all the divisions between the Hellenistic diaspora Jewish Christians and the Jewish Christians that lived in Israel, and even then there were divisions among the Israeli Christians between those that were from Galilee and those that were from Judea, plus there were the divisions between the Samaritan Christians that were considered “kinda sorta Jews.” And then when the Gentiles came into the church, there was division between Jews and Gentiles and Gentiles and Gentiles. Why? Different people, different cultures, different backgrounds. If they had to put up with each other then, we have to put up with each other now.

    As I have mentioned to you earlier Charles, Christianity is grown folks business. One of my favorite sermons was when Phillip Goudeaux preached on how he gained an employer of his – a very racist white man – for Christ by submitting to him, becoming a real Uncle Tom shucking, jiving, and grinning Negro in the face of this man’s racial slurs and other hateful treatment of him. It did not happen overnight, either. It took YEARS for Goudeax to convert this man. And of course, you really do not believe that this man just up and changed his racial views immediately upon receiving the Holy Spirit do you? Well I have news for you: that is not how things work except in extremely rare circumstances. It certainly wasn’t my experience. I was in that “Louis Farrakhan Public Enemy Million Man March black power hip hop I hate Jews, Christians, and white people” nonsense during my college years (Florida A&M University), and it took me years to completely let it go even after I got saved. Never forget Charles that you have to put up with the flaws of other members of the Body of Christ because God puts up with you.

  149. Charles D. said

    Have every intentions of responding. Nothing heavy, this time you sound somewhat like a mind of reason. I am pulling another 15 hourer; have read your comment, and though I still think a simple (“) after God” might be what you’re choking on, because the “next sentence is ALL Charles D., and was never stated as scripture, then, you might have understood me better, even though I came back with grammatical clarification which you apparently overlooked if you read at all.

    Like I said, I’m working now, will get back to you in a day or so. It is my prayer that you be blessed.

    Charles

  150. johnkaniecki said

    I would apologize to the devil himself if I thought it would further the cause of Christ. But that’s just me. Everyone views things from unique perspectives. Something that wouldn’t phase another individual might enrage me and it works the other way too.

    Psalm 133 comes to mind.

    Charles, why do you work so many hours? You said your work with the government before. Perhaps it’s something you can’t discuss.

    Love,

    John

  151. Charles D. said

    johnkaniecki:

    Hell-o John

    It’s been a little while. I can say that all of the hours are not voluntary; and there is much I cannot say. I feel a need to be connected to those who are doing now, what I use to do when I was on active duty – but now I am compelled to contribute where I can. My home is Alaska and I was to be back there almost seven years ago. In the intervening time, state level politics have so ruined the beautiful place I called home until I am not nearly as anxious to get back as when I left home.

    My plans now include spending 8 months here (or in the lower 48s as we refer to it) and 4 months there.

    Appreciate the continuing conversations with you and I hope to meet you one day and I will tell you about some of my adventures, both here and in the big country.

    Take care and God Bless you and keep you enbued with your gentle spirit.

    Charles

  152. johnkaniecki said

    Charles,

    I always wanted to visit Alaska. I got as far as Washington State. Yes, the nature is being ruined, and not just in America but over all the world. I suppose you take it easier during the winter.

    Love,

    John

  153. Charles D. said

    John

    Most of the year I live in Juneau which is comparable to Seattle. Part of the year I trek to Kenia (driving from Anchorage) and further west which is warmer than one might expect, there’s a year round golf course. I have lived in Fairbanks and north of the Brooks range which is just plain cloder.

    I’ve walked in -70 and ventured outside in a light windbreaker at -20. I’ve aclimated fairly well, have seen and heard the northern lights. But then, I’ve seen the the Northern lights in Charlottesville, VA also.

    Take care..talk with you soon,

    Charles

  154. b4HisGlory said

    I understand the scriptures of the family of a leader, however
    we cannot control our adult children. They have their own choices
    to make in life and if we all decided not to do something according
    to the “sin” in our childrens lives, we’d have to sit
    at home and never do anything or go anywhere.
    It sounds like something you’d hear from pharisee’s.

    We are accountable for our own lives. We cannot control others lives
    and what they decide to do.
    If all they pastors and rabbi’s decided not to be one according to the
    sin in their kids, we’d have no spiritual leaders.
    Sometimes, it’s their kids sin that drives them to be better leaders
    because of the sin in their children and their life styles.
    There are secret sins in people’s lives sitting in the pews that only God
    knows about that no one else knows about and if never confessed, no one
    would ever know.

    I think that sometimes, hounding every dot and tiddle in people, is verging
    on a “critical” spirit.
    If all “watch dogs” were as diligent in their own lives, maybe we would
    have revival and the examinationn of ones own heart, walking in love,
    would move the hearts of people in a mighty way.

    If J.D.Jakes son is gay, don’t you think that love can cover the sin’s
    lies that the son believes, and he might be saved.
    Jesus never turned someone away, they chose not to follow Him and believe.
    That did not mean that Jesus did not have sorrow in their lack of hearing
    and believing.

    I think all of you are very harsh and need a dose of love. You never
    know whether the relationship and love would bring that loved one around.
    I’m not talking about letting down the righteous ways that God calls us
    to. I’m talking about having boundaries in love and letting the one
    in the sin of homosexuality, know you will not compromise in the ways
    of God and what the bible says.

    Love the sinner, hate the sin.

    B4HisGlory

  155. b4HisGlory:

    What you are speaking is popular false Christianity, not what the Bible says. Bottom line: do you believe what the Bible says or don’t you? Are you willing to obey what the Bible says or are you not? And do you think that your pastor should do the same or do you not?

    Bringing up this Pharisee business does not apply to us. The Pharisees’ problem was that they did not believe in Jesus Christ, and had made their own teachings more important than what the Bible actually said. None of us are doing that here. Instead, we are discussing whether TD Jakes is being obedient to scripture. If you are saying that Jakes or anyone else should not make scripture the ultimate authority over their lives, you are not a Christian.

    ” I’m talking about having boundaries in love and letting the one in the sin of homosexuality, know you will not compromise in the ways of God and what the bible says.” Excuse me, but you lie here, because that is EXACTLY the whole point of your post … saying that TD Jakes should compromise what the Bible says by remaining in the pulpit.

    “If all “watch dogs” were as diligent in their own lives, maybe we would have revival and the examinationn of ones own heart, walking in love, would move the hearts of people in a mighty way.”

    According to you, then the people that wrote the Bible in the first place, from the prophets in the Old Testament to Paul, Peter, John, etc. in the New Testament should have just shut up and minded their own business? Excuse me but where did you pick up all this false doctrine? Oh, yes, from watching TD Jakes and that pack of wolves that he runs with.

    “If J.D.Jakes son is gay, don’t you think that love can cover the sin’s lies that the son believes, and he might be saved.”

    Again, applying scripture out of context. Love covering someone’s sins refers to someone who sins out of weakness, ignorance, or error. It does not apply to someone who decides that he is going to defy God by choosing a sinful lifestyle. In the former case, the person needs support and correction. In the latter case, the person is a rebel against God and needs to turn from his wicked ways, and be kicked out of the church if he refuses, just as Paul spoke of “delivering one unto Satan” regarding the man that would not stop living in fornication (and several others). But TD Jakes’ son knows that homosexuality is a sin. TD Jakes knows too, or else he wouldn’t be swinging his ministry in a pro – homosexual direction, doing it slowly and little by little because he knows that 10 years from now gay marriage will be legal, hate crimes laws making it illegal to criticize homosexuality will be enacted, and people will apply a “don’t ask don’t tell” policy to what his son is doing. In other words, Jakes is going by the same game plan that preachers that got divorced and whose kids had children out of wedlock followed 30 years ago. And wow, look at us now: church folk have as many abortions and out of wedlock kids as the general population and our divorce rates are actually HIGHER than the general population. You tell me what sin is being covered by our “love” if our ways are worse than that of the world? Don’t you know that one of the main reasons why God sent the children of Israel into captivity was because He created the nation so that they would be a light to the world so that He could use them to draw other nations to Him, but they wound actually being WORSE than the other nations? Based on some of the rumors that I have heard on these famous preachers (most of which I do not even repeat because I only dedicate a SMALL PORTION of this weblog to dealing with liars; most of my effort goes to people that are actually TRYING to tell the truth), we are almost at that time.

    Haven’t you read the scriptures about how the church falling away into apostasy in the last days is going to happen? What makes you think that these people aren’t part of it? Even if it isn’t, there have been false preachers and teachers from the very beginning … even early enough to be listed in the New Testament, and these guys are just more folks in a long line that started with the Jezebels and the Nicolataines.

    Oh yeah, and Jakes’ son believing alone will not save him. First, the scriptures said that a lot of people believed on Christ but refused to follow Him. Second, have you read the Book of James lately? It says EVEN THE DEMONS BELIEVE IN JESUS CHRIST AND TREMBLE! So it is not enough to believe in Jesus Christ. It is not enough to fear Jesus Christ. You have to FOLLOW Jesus Chris by OBEYING HIM. TD Jakes, his son, and the rest of the false preachers that I speak of on this weblog are no better than demons, and unless they change they will suffer the fate of demons.

    And that will be your fate as well. Do not deceive yourself. This is not about me, but about you. Even if I am wrong and you are right, and I am just a hateful Pharisee accuser and go to the lake of fire for it, your being right about me will not redeem you. You will only be redeemed by virtue of your obedience and submission to Jesus Christ. You say that you believe in Jesus Christ. That is outstanding. But is Jesus Christ your Lord? Are you keeping His commandments – and not just the partial list that sounds convenient to you and fits your lifestyle? Do you heed His parables where He speaks of the difference between the sheep that obey and the goats that call on His Name but do not obey?

    That is the biggest problem with these false preachers. They only give you a half – gospel. They teach you how to call Jesus Christ your Savior but they don’t teach you how to call Jesus Christ your Lord. The woman caught in adultery and brought before Christ never called Him Savior, but she called Him LORD. When doubting Thomas saw the resurrected Jesus Christ, he did not fall on his face and say “Savior”, he fell on his face and said “my LORD and my GOD!”

    People do not recognize that God is sovereign, that God is the boss. You folks are being taught by these false preachers that the world revolves around you … your wants … your needs … your dreams … your fears … your hurts (that is what “Woman Thou Art Loosed” is all about … the woman being attended to and not the woman’s God that she has to serve and please), etc. Because of that, you have this false assurance, this false believe that so long as you verbalize a belief in the deity of Jesus Christ that God is OBLIGATED to save you, because you think that the world revolves around you and God exists to serve you, to give you want you want, to make you happy. It does not work that way. Creation revolves around God, and you were created to serve and obey God not according to the law but through faith. If you reject what Jesus Christ actually taught so that you can go around using His words and the words of His servants out of context to justify sin, then you will get a sinner’s reward on judgment day regardless of what happens to me or all of the other busybodies that you are convinced are working such a great evil by our criticizing pastors that reject the Bible.

  156. Kingskid49 said

    Gary (#41)
    ….Touch not my anointed and do my prophet no harm.

    TO ALL THOSE THAT USE THIS SCRIPTURE TO TRY TO SHEILD YOUR FALSE PROPHETS:

    Remember that David said this during the time when GOD’S Spirit had departed from Saul and and evil spirit from the Lord was sent to him. Read your bible people!

    J (#42/43)
    This is to try to tear TD Jakes down.

    He it tearing himself down with false doctrine, lies, covetousness, itchy ear sermons and compromising the Truth of God’s Word. (Oh yes, and Mimes during his sermons.)

    I am glad that all of you are tearing Jakes down because him and his son are going to use this to step into greatness.

    If you really believe that you have not read:

    1 Cor 6: 9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
    10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

    Peace in Jesus’ name

  157. Kingskid49 said

    TO ALL DEFENDERS OF FALSE PROPHETS PLEASE INQUIRE AS TO WHAT “THUS SAYS THE LORD”

    Isaiah 56: 9 All ye beasts of the field, come to devour, yea, all ye beasts in the forest.
    10 His watchmen are blind: they are all ignorant, they are all dumb dogs, they cannot bark; sleeping, lying down, loving to slumber.11 Yea, they are greedy dogs which can never have enough, and they are shepherds that cannot understand: they all look to their own way, every one for his gain, from his quarter. 12 Come ye, say they, I will fetch wine, and we will fill ourselves with strong drink; and to morrow shall be as this day, and much more abundant.

    Romans 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools……………
    25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
    26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
    27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet. 28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity;……

    Peace in Jesus’ name

  158. Kingskid49 said

    BTW The watchman, shepherd, is synomyous with pastor, etc.

  159. Leadbelly said

    I cannot believe the comments made about this man. the judgements made about him are pure hatred. casting stones indeed…..

  160. Leadbelly: Show me one Bible verse where it says speaking THE VERIFIED TRUTH about a man’s evil actions are hateful or wrong. You won’t be able to, because it isn’t there.

  161. Charles said

    Leadbelly

    I have absolutely said what I believe were horrendous things about TD Jakes, someone even referred to what I said as “tearing him a new one….) I’m sure you know what that means. Thing is however, there were no falsehoods, certainly wasn’t hate, and because the things were true, I am doubtful that casting stones would be an accurate description of what I have done. But, enough about me; let me ask you a question: What would your feelings be if each and every thing said about Jakes were true?

    I feel through what I read in your comment, that you either are, or, were a supporter of Jakes. I can certainly understand your feeling if that is the case. I know of things about him (Jakes) that have never been discussed here. At all! You are probably old enough to know that different people respond to situations like Jakes find himself, in different ways. Some would say nothing regardless to what Jakes do. Some others might grumble but allow him to go on. I truly believe that you are seeing only part of the total picture and maybe I’m seeing on part of the picture as well. Thing is…the part that I have seen and know about is so far removed from preaching Jesus and Him crucified. I learned a long time ago and not without spiritual and physical pain, that you don’t mess around with God’s anointed and I subscribe to that whole-heartedly; and I tell you now, TD Jakes is a wolf in sheep clothing and eventually more people than those writing comments here will know as well.

    TD Jakes is not the only one that you will read about here. There are as many fervent followers of Benny Hinn, Creflo Dollar, and Kenneth Copeland. As you read this, each and everyone of those named above are the targets of on-going federal investigations and wouldn’t you know it…..each investigation has to do with wrongful financial actions on the part of them and their collective ministries. Watch as well as pray my brother.

    Charles

  162. prianka said

    This is really pathetic, that a minister of God has a gay son just goes to show what the world is turning into, the devil is working hard at his job and if he has not vehemently opposed this act on national TV but has now affiliated himself with Dr Phil and those who accept this way of life then we need to hold on to our salvation very tightly because its scary to think that this blatant behaviour is acceptable. I am worried for our future generation, i just cry thinking of the horrors that await any human that doesnt submit his will to Jesus. I read in Healthelands post, No 35 that TD Jakes said on larry king that he is not absolutely sure Jesus is the only way. This is really alarming, JESUS IS THE ONLY WAY, THE TRUTH AND THE LIFE. Jesus did not come here to die for us to have money, or to make us command God to do our bidding but for our sin. The only thing that will stop us from getting to heaven is our sin. Homosexuality is a vile ABOMINATION before God, i agree with healtheland that not all sins are an abomination, it is just before the verse in leviticus on man lying with beast. This thing is just too gross to God that the bible says their souls would be cut off from the rest of the people meaning they should face the death penalty.

    Thank you healtheland for this post because i would never have known, and we should keep to thhe truth in the bible, there are some things that can be hazy in the bible and we sometimes go into long arguments and doctrines but on this one there is NO CONTROVERSY, homosexuality is a grave sin and an abomination and its a sign of pride. This world needs to come to an absolute end it keeps getting worse and worse. Jesus said it would, but for those who believe in him the days will be shortened. May God give us the grace to keep to our faith in Jesus name. Amen.

  163. Fran said

    Prianka,

    Glad to see you back.

    In Christ
    Fran

  164. prianka:

    Thank you for your support on this issue. We are all trying to find our way and contend for the faith. We really do need the Holy Spirit and the Bible, because we just are not strong or smart enough to make it without God’s help!

  165. prianka said

    HEALTHELAND

    YOU HAVE MY SUPPORT ALL THE WAY BRO. THE THING IS SOMETIMES YOU CAN BE A BIT HARSH (LOL) AND PEOPLE MIGHT DIAGREE WITH YOU AND ALL THAT BUT THE FACT IS YOU ARE DOING A FANTASTIC WORK AND MAY GOD CONTINUE TO GIVE YOU THE STRENGTH AND RESOURCES TO KEEP ON DOING THIS.

    KEEP UP THE GOOD WORK.

  166. I think that church ministries registered as a non-profit 501 C3 should be renamed to 501C3 NON-PROPHET.

  167. Christian Doc said

    The TRUTH is……Right, wrong or indifferent, after reviewing your entries on this BLOG the first thing I did was compare its content to the fruit of the Spirit (Galatians 5:22-23).

    Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is LOVE, JOY, PEACE, LONGSUFFERING, GENTLENESS, GOODNESS, FAITH, Gal 5:23 MEEKNESS, TEMPERANCE: against such there is no law.

    Needless to say, I could not find any of the fruit in your entry. JESUS SAID in Matthew 7:16 that we will know men by the fruit they bear. ARE THESE TRULY GOOD SEEDS AND WILL THIS “EXPOSURE” BEAR GOOD FRUIT?

    If your intentions are wrong in the least jot or tittle, you are guilty of wrongdoing. You seem to possess an UNNATURAL JOY AND DUTY in publicly condemning, criticizing and humiliating saints with (alleged) sins on THE WORLD STAGE.

    Luk 6:38 Give, and it shall be given unto you, good measure, pressed down and shaken together, and running over, shall men give into your bosom. FOR WITH THE SAME MEASURE THAT YE METE WITHAL IT SHALL BE MEASURED TO YOU AGAIN.

    I ask and pray for the latter part of God’s JUDGMENT upon YOU, GOOD OR BAD, also on THE WORLD STAGE, but MORE HASTILY. All too often self-righteous Christians invoke the precepts of Titus 2:15 as part of their reasoning/duty for “exposing” or gossiping;

    Tit 2:15 These things speak, and exhort, and REBUKE WITH ALL AUTHORITY. Let no man despise thee.
    – However –
    They fail to READ THE VERSES immediately FOLLOWING. THE NEXT CHAPTER ALSO goes ALONG WITH the INSTRUCTIONS of correction AND rebuke.

    Tit 3:1 Put them in mind to be subject to principalities and powers, to obey magistrates, to be ready to every good work,
    Tit 3:2 TO SPEAK EVIL OF NO MAN, to be no brawlers, but gentle, showing all MEEKNESS unto all men.
    Tit 3:3 FOR WE OURSELVES ALSO WERE SOMETIMES FOOLISH, DISOBEDIENT, deceived, SERVING DIVERS LUSTS AND PLEASURES, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another.

    You’ve outlined sins and abominations on multiple pages of this BLOG. Lest not forget Proverbs 6 as it may apply to you.
    Pro 6:16 These six things doth the LORD hate:yea, SEVEN ARE AN ABOMINATION UNTO HIM:
    Pro 6:17 A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood,
    Pro 6:18 A HEART THAT DEVISETH WICKED IMAGINATIONS, FEET THAT BE SWIFT IN RUNNING TO MISCHIEF,
    Pro 6:19 A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that SOWETH DISCORD AMONG BRETHREN.

    Regardless of whether or not you intend them to be, YOUR ACTIONS ARE AN ABOMINATION because you are SOWING DISCORD on a portion of the largest scale there is, THE WORLD STAGE.

    In your “exposure” and wrath, you’ve completely failed to acknowledge Galatians 5:14-26 in this endeavor. It clearly warns against wrath, which in turn, belongs to God. Nevertheless, free will is yours and as with all of us, searching the soul is an individual responsibility especially if we really want desire God’s will.

    What profiteth a man the whole world if he loses his soul. Are you gaining the whole world by main-staging several people, while losing your soul? Could that be the case IF you are wrong? After all, you are not omniscient. Again search your soul and not highlight only PORTIONS of scripture while subduing the other INCLUSIVE parts.

    Finally, in whatsoever you do in word in deed, how can you forget the GREATEST COMMANDMENTS OF ALL. THUS SAITH THE LORD…….

    Mat 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
    Mat 22:38 This is the first and great commandment.
    Mat 22:39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.
    Mat 22:40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

    How can you correlate your actions with what JESUS states are the GREATEST COMMANDMENTS? The operative words are “JESUS” and COMMANDMENTS……..Where is the LOVE or even a portion of genuine love in your rebuke AND/OR CORRECTION? Hopefully you wouldn’t love yourself this way. I can see nothing good resulting from the sowing of these seeds.

    Remember, 2 Corinthian 5:19 states that God has the final judgment of guilt, GRACE and RECONCILIATION of our sins. Psalm 139 states, HE KNOWS ALL OF OUR THOUGHTS AFAR OFF…..AND INTENTIONS.

  168. Christian Doc:
    Another professed Christian who is just fine with God’s people going to the lake of fire for eternity and is twisting scripture to support following a bunch of liars and heretics. Maybe you will wake up one day. I was just like you once, not long ago as a matter of fact, but I did.

    And by the way, Christian Doc, I am fulfilling Titus 3:2. How? Because what I am saying is true. I am not gossiping, I am not slandering, I am not bringing forth a railing accusation (Jude), but I am reporting truthfully. Those who will be helped shall be helped. Those who want to continue following false preachers and defending them? Well let them go right ahead. Again, maybe they shall wake up one day as I did. I will say this, however: the only reason why I stopped following these liars is because I happened across another ministry that told the truth about what these people are doing just like mine.

    By the way, Christian Doc, let us hear you reconcile your interpretation of that scripture with the words of Paul in 2 Timothy 4: “Alexander the coppersmith did me much evil: the Lord reward him according to his works.” Or what about 2 Timothy 4:10?
    “For Demas hath forsaken me, having loved this present world, and is departed unto Thessalonica; Crescens to Galatia, Titus unto Dalmatia.” Lest we forget, the same person wrote Titus and II Timothy. So is the Bible a liar in this matter, Christian Doc? Or are you? Since you have chosen to rise up against righteousness to defend liars, thieves, fornicators, and heretics, the balance of evidence leands towards the latter.

  169. prianka said

    HEALTHELAND

    IN AS MUCH AS YOU DO NOT APPRECIATE CHRISTIAN DOC YOU HAVE TO ADMIT HE IS RIGHT IN MANY POINTS HE IS MAKING. THIS BLOG IS REALLY CAUSING UNNECCESARY DISCORD AMONG BRETHREN, LOOK AT HOW YOU ARE ALL ATTACKING EACHOTHER IS THIS WHAT JESUS WANTS US TO DO? I REALLY APPRECIATE YOU HEALTHELAND BUT I WOULD LOVE IF YOU CAN SOMETIMES TAKE CORRECTION EVEN IF YOU FEEL YOU ARE RIGHT, ITS NOT GOING TO TAKE ANYTHING OUT OF YOU, IT WONT MAKE YOU LESS LOVED BY JESUS, OR LESS SPIRITUAL OR LESS KNOWLEDGABLE. YES YOU ARE EXPOSING THEM AND THATS FANTASTIC BUT THE ONLY PERSON WHO IS TRUE IS GOD NOT YOU NOT ME, NOT ANYONE HERE BUT JESUS. YOU CANT BE RIGHT IN EVERYTHING AND “I AM SORRY” DOESNT ALWAYS MEAN YOU ARE WRONG BUT YOU ARE WILLING TO LET GO AND LET GOD TAKE JESUS TAKE THE WHEEL. YOU NEED NOT PROVE YOURSELF ALL THE TIME OR HAVE A CONFLICT WITH PEOPLE SOMETIMES ITS BEST TO PLAY THE FOOL. LOOK AT ROB AND CHARLES HOW THEY ARE GOING BACK AND FORTH WITH INSULTS, HOW ARE THEY DIFFERENT FROM THE WORLD TELL ME? HOW ARE THEY DIFFERENT FROM LAWYERS THAT WILL TURN AND TWIST EVERYTHING TO SUIT THEIR POINT?

    ALSO WHEN SOMEONE QUOTES A SCIPTURE TO ADMONISH ANOTHER HERE THERE IS ANOTHER SCIRTURE QUICKLY QUOTED TO CONTRADICT HIM GOD DOESNT CONTRADICT HIMSELF, HUMANS DO SO IF C DOC SITES A SCRIPTURE SEE IF THERE IS SOMETHING YOU CAN LEARN FROM IT WE ARE ALL GODS CHILDREN AND HE LOVES US EQUALLY AND EVEN IF YOU KNOW SCRIPTURE YOU CAN STILL LEARN FROM THE MOST UNEXPECTED SOURCE SEE THE PARABLE OF THE GOOD SAMARITAN . THIS IS NOT GOOD GUYS LET US BE ONE WE HAVE A BATTLE TO FIGHT, JUST BECAUSE SOMEONE DOESNT AGREE WITH YOU DOESNT MEAN HE IS DEFILED AND HE IS NO MORE YOUR BROTHER YOU STILL HAVE TO SHOW HIM LOVE, IF GOD TREATED US THE WAY WE REALLY ARE HOW MANY OF US CAN SURVIVE? I LOVE THIS SITE, I LOVE LEARNING, I LOVE GROWING CANT WE DO THIS IN PEACE MUST WE RESORT TO NAME CALLING?

    YOUR STATEMENT “Since you have chosen to rise up against righteousness to defend liars thieves, fornicators, ans heretics…” IS JUST JUST OUT OF CONTROL HEALTHELAND, HE IS NOT SUPPORTING THEM AND HE IS NOT TRYING TO. THIS BLOG IS CAUSING DISCORD. SOME PEOPLE SEE OTHERS AS THEIR FRIENDS AND EVEN IF THAT PERSON SAYS SOMETHING WRONG THEY WILL QUOTE SCRIPTURE TO DEFEND HIM THUS COVERING HIS OWN SIN. JUST READ C DOCS POST AGAIN HE IS MAKING A HUE POINT I SAW A LOT OF OSTS OF YOURS HERE I DIDNT AGREE WITH BUT I JUST CHOSE TO RESPOND TO WHAT I AGREE WITH, YOU ARE MY BROTHER AS LONG AS WE BELEIVE JESUS IS THE SON OF GOD AND BELIEVE IN HIS DEATH AND RESSURECTION. LETS STOP THIS FIGHTING AND MAKING ALLIES THIS IS A BLOG WE DONT KNOW EACHOTHER PERSONALLY WE CANT JUSTIFY A MANS CREDIBILITY BY HIS ADHERANCE TO OUR BELIEFS. SOME PEOPLE HERE ARE JUST TOO HEAD STRONG TO BE TAUGHT, NO MAN IS AN ISLAND TO HIMSELF WE ARE HUMANS ITS OKAY TO BE WRONG, ITS OKAY TO MAKE A MISTAKE, ITS FANTASTIC IF WE CAN ACCEPT OUR WRONG AND SAY LOOK AM SORRY AND MOVE ON. WE ARE DOING POLITICS HERE. I LOVE YOU ALL AND HOPE WE CAN JUST GET ALONG.

    IN CHRIST
    PRIANKA

  170. prianka said

    SORRY I MEANT WE ARE NOT DOING POLITICS HERE. HEALTHELAND LIKE I SAID KEEP UP THE WORK BUT DONT GET LOST IN EXPOSING OTHERS, REMEMBER YOUR OWN SOUL TOO, SEARCH YOURSELF DAILY AND BE SO MUCH HARDER ON YOURSELF LEST YOU SAVE MANY AND ARE CONDEMNED (GOD FORBID!!!), NEVER NEGLECT YOURSELF.

  171. Prianka: Would you know about TD Jakes were it not for this weblog? And yes, when a person does distort scripture to claim that we should not speak against heretics, thieves, liars, etc. (when the Bible tells us to does the same), yes they are rising up to defend evil. Why? Because evil wins when good men remain silent and do nothing. Again, I would still be following TD Jakes had I not found out about him on another weblog. Would I be better off, prianka, if I were still following TD Jakes, Juanita Bynum, Kenneth Copeland, and the Crouch family? Or worse?

  172. Eden Hadassah said

    In reading these last few posts, I see that there are still some that would rather deal with others according to illusions, rather than in spirit and in truth.

    Each of us are a part of the body of Christ, and each of us has a different job to do. We do not do everything the same. It seems to me that if a member of clergy has a piece of paper saying that he is ordained, then it is valid to use the scriptures in any manner or fashion he/she chooses, and the common theme of these pastors is don’t come against the authority of the church, which is just sowing seeds of division and discord and creating factions. The problem I have with this, is that these pastors have trained the next generation of new believers well, in not questioning authority, and to become transformed into the image of the church. This is not good. Whether those who object to the attitude of HTL or not, he is being true in his convictions, and to the scriptures. The fruit of the spirit is not feelings but realities. They are not open to interpretation according to the whim of feelings.
    Love is not a feeling but an action. It can be tender and it can be strict and disciplining.
    Joy is not a feeling and should never be confused with happiness. Joy has to do with fulfillment of God’s word, with his justice and his sovernignty.
    Peace is not a feeling. It is a dwelling place and a shelter.
    Patience is not a feeling, but an action that moves in the realm of absolute trust in God.

    I will continue this later, I have to take my son to the dr.
    But I will continue my thought later when I get home.

    One final thing,
    HTL does not create division, or discord, except in the heart of the reader who has lived in a construct of their own making, because that particular reader has not yet dealt with his own real personality and true being.

  173. john kaniecki said

    Prianka,

    I hope this goes through as my previous blog on another topic didn’t. Sometimes it takes a few minutes. I’m very happy to see you back and I hope that you are well.

    Yes, I must agree with you that the tone of conversation is not always civil. What can be done about it is another matter. I just try to be as kind and gentle as possible. But there is positvie aspect to bluntness. Name calling shouldn’t be here at all. But what is name calling? As long as it’s not a put down I think we should let it go. Christ taught us not to call a man a fool but he called some hypocrites.

    Well lunch is over and I must be back to work.

    Love,

    John

  174. Diane said

    Prianka, it is good to see you commenting again, and your encouragement here was much needed.

  175. Charles D. said

    prianka:

    What? Rob and I “going after each other?” Hey, I resemble those remarks!!!

    Charles

  176. Charles D. said

    prianka:

    Where are some of your other comments? I had lots to say to you, by way of explaining myself lest you might judge me more harshly. Thing is…you are not listed in Recent Comments” and you should be, in fact, I’m hardpressed to find any other comments by you. I know you must exist because my Sis Fran, et al welcomed you back.

    My thing is this…I see every abled bodied christian as in God’s army. Some officers, some Non-Coms, some doing grut work, some on KP, and still others might be in Sp Ops. How do you see yourself?

    I read your comments and I am not offended in the least. I know what my job is AND, I know my evaluation will not be rendered by you. Hey! Some are on the sidelines and others are in the game. Since there was some much more heated dialogue in the very post that you referenced, I have to assume that you very carefully “pick” and “Choose” your battles. So that makes you what exactly?

    I would not take the liberty of referencing you personally without having spoken to you or at least knowing what you are about. Since I don’t, I won’t; however, you do not know me either, so, take your own advise to HTL.

    Charles

  177. prianka said

    Healtheland

    I dont think from the word go some of these leaders like TD Jakes had the sole intention of decieving Gods children , some have been christians long before they ever started a church or televivion ministry. I think along the way to their rise the fell, we humans have to deal with temptations yes but for higher authorities i think they have a more sensitive position thats why we are always reminded to pray for them its easier for them to slide. I heard there was a christian conference recently and many leaders were asked how long they pray each day and surprisingly a large percentage pray an average of 10 minutes a day!!! I was shocked!! What can you achieve with praying 10 minutes a day? You cant overcome temptations if you are not prayerful, prayer is our power source and remember sometimes when the multitude pressed on Jesus the bible says he withdrew himself alone and went to PRAY. His ministry was characterised with prayers before he died he prayed because he knew he had a big task ahead of him, the bible said he praye dso hard his sweat was as thick as drops of blood. He didnt go around saying oh am the messiah i dont need to pray, he was always praying.

    Maybe this lack of prayer and seeking God might be a reason these leaders do what they do. Getting caught up in the affairs of the world. If you dont pray you cant hear from GOD, its not possible cause your spirit is weak. You presume Gods will cause you dont have time to seek his face and wait for an answer, too busy preaching and holding conferences and remodeling your website and writing books and PREACHING WHAT THE PEOPLE WANT TO HEAR.Presumption is very common among christians today. Today we need hard truths more than preaching how magnificent humans are and our dominion and our power blah blah we need to seperated from the world. Matt 6.33 says “BUT SEEK YE FIRST THE KINGDOM OF GOD AND HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS, AND ALL THESE THINGS SHALL BE ADDED UNTO YOU”. People dont want to be told about sin but whats the core of the Gospel? REPENTANCE. Jesus preached extensively on avoiding sin as the key to heaven but you dont hear that today, He didnt discriminate he loved sinners, he healed them but what did he say afterwards “GO AND SIN NO MORE”. One man he healed and went as far as saying you better be holy so that something worse doesnt fall on you.

    If the leaders are not praying then how can they fight the war? No matter the amount of scripture you know or how well you know doctrine its nothing if you dont havethe power of God in you for IT IS THE ANNOINTING THAT BREAKS THE YOKE. II CORINTHIANS 10 VERSE 3-6 talks about our weapons of war not being carnal, we do not war in the flesh our battles can only be won WHEN WE PRAY. EPHESIANS 6 VERSE 10-18 goes on to expound on those weapons verse 18 says “PRAYING ALWAYSWITH ALL PRAYER AND SUPPLICATIONIN THE SPIRIT, AND WATCHING THERE UNTOWITH ALL PERSEVERANCE AND SUPPLICATION FOR ALL SAINTS. Prayer is power.

    II Peter 2 talks extensively on this false teachers and one verse strikes me , verse3 “AND THROUGH COVETOUSNESS WITH FEIGNED WORDSMAKE MERCHANDISE OF YOU..” verse 14 “…BEGUILING UNSTABLE SOULS…” From verse 15-22 talks how they have forsaken the right way and gone astray. So they must have started on the right track but along the line something happened. Neglect of prayer can bring ANY MAN down and i think this happens with older christians more who think they have arrived and they can survive on their knowledge of the bible the truth is they begin to look more at their own abilities and rely on their own powers and the fall begins and dont think it happens in one day. One doesnt become a false in one day it takes time, months of not praying, the devil begins to throw ideas in your head one little one at a time, people begin to treat you like royalty. But when you pray you are constantly reminded of your low estate, James 5.16 says “…. the effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much”, IIthessaloninas 5.16 says ” Pray without ceasing”.

    One of the most difficult sins to get rid of in human nature is PRIDE. I t very difficult to find a truly humble christian today that gentle, caring, meek, sweet smelling savour is sooo rare. People get rid of most sins but pride is one that is so prevalent cause it has many faces and comes in diverse subtle ways. Ego is the enemy of love and any one who doesnt love has pride in him. We all have pride sometimes, but we usually dont agree we have pride in us, the refusal to admit this is a sign of pride itself. One of the clear signs of lack of prayer and seeking God in a mans life is PRIDE and from then anything can happen its a doorway to other sins.

    As the body of Christ we need to pray more than we speak and teach cause without it we are like a cloud without water.

  178. Charles D. said

    HTL

    On another post you gently admonished (I believe it was Tyrone), and reminded him that he was once “a long jump-shot” brother. I guess what I’m leading up to is the remarkable opportunities that are presented to you to gently correct, both, the misapplication and misinterpretation of scripture. I believe that you would build heavenly treasure while so doing.

    Wish I could retract my comments at 175, 176, but especially, 175. Takes a secured foundation to appreciate (the humor intended), and now, I am not sure my intentions were preceived by all as intended.

    Be Blessed,

    Charles

  179. prianka:

    I do not disagree with what you said. I would only add that according to the teachings of a radio minister that I like Bob George, we need to read our Bibles twice as much as we pray. So read our Bible twice as much as we pray, pray twice as much as we speak, and that will limit our speech to things worthy of saying.

    As far as these preachers go, it is true that some start out with good intentions and then fall by the wayside. However, it is also true that good intentions in and of themselves are not sufficient. You can preach false doctrine out of a sincere heart, for instance, but it is still false doctrine. Some of the nicest, most loving, most dedicated, respectful, caring, helpful, and devoted people that I have ever known were Mormons, Jehovah’s Witnesses, Muslims, and atheists. But guess what? They were still Mormons, Jehovah’s Witnesses, Muslims, and atheists! So we are not to allow them to spread their falsehoods without opposition just because they are good sincere people.

    The flip side of the equation is Paul’s astonishing words in Philippians 1:14-18. “And many of the brethren in the Lord, waxing confident by my bonds, are much more bold to speak the word without fear. Some indeed preach Christ even of envy and strife; and some also of good will: The one preach Christ of contention, not sincerely, supposing to add affliction to my bonds: But the other of love, knowing that I am set for the defence of the gospel. What then? notwithstanding, every way, whether in pretence, or in truth, Christ is preached; and I therein do rejoice, yea, and will rejoice.

    According to that, even those that preach Christ out of questionable motivations or in a clumsy brutish manner are doing God’s work, for by their giving utterance to the gospel they are speaking the Word of God, and the Word of God does not come back void but goes forth and accomplishes the Will of the Father, which is to save and heal man. With all due respect to my many critics, most of whom I sympathize with even if I am forced to disagree, they need to read that verse. If you are preaching Christ, then you are doing good.

    So what is my problem with Jakes, the Whites, Copeland, Warren, and the many others that I denounce? Well, they are not preaching Christ. They preach the prosperity doctrine, which is abomination. They preach Word of Faith, which is an attack on God’s sovereignty. They preach oneness pentecostalism, which rejects God’s true nature. And further, they preach a man – centered religion, one where it is God’s duty and imperative to serve man and justify Himself before man. These folks, even when God does not give you what you want or have been praying for, they have to come up with something to justify, apologize for, or make an excuse for God. And that pretty much sums up virtually all of the famous televangelists these days. They preach a man – centered gospel where by accepting Christ man does God this big favor, and in return for the favor God showers them with blessings. That is precisely the opposite of what the Bible says. So though these people may be sincere in what they are preaching, they are not preaching Christ, and it must be opposed. The inevitable result of man – centered false Christianity is that disobeying God is regrettable but ultimately OK, because you did God such a big favor by accepting Jesus Christ that God is going to accept you no matter what you do. That is the OPPOSITE of grace. That is the OPPOSITE of the God of the Bible who is so holy and mighty and righteous that we must tremble with fear and reverence before His presence. Instead, their false god trembles and shakes before and serves US because WE are so special that God HAS to save us. That mentality is reflected by these people’s admonition that I not speak of the sins of these preachers but rather I should just pray that God restores them. Excuse me, but what obligates God to restore them? What obligates God to answer my prayer for them to be restored if it is not His Will? They are acting like keeping these people in the pulpit is more important to God than their obedience to Him is. And the reason why they believe that way is because they believe that these preachers are doing God this great favor by choosing to be a preacher. The notion that God can raise up a rock or a pile of dirt to do His Will just as well as He can use any person is foreign to these people, because the modern false gospel completely ignores the holiness, righteousness, and SOVEREIGNTY of God.

    And this brings us back to Bishop Jakes. I do not know much about his days back when he was a struggling preacher in West Virginia, other than of course he was a oneness pentecostal. But I do know that his claim to fame was his “woman thou art loosed” ministry. And his claim to fame was corrupt. His message to women was that because they had been hurt by men, they were not accountable to God for their behavior. Because they had been hurt by their father, their husband, or the third father of the four kids that they had out of wedlock by four different men, all God wanted to do was just heal them, meet their needs, loose their pain, etc. so that they could be the women that they were meant to be. It is all about my wants, my experiences, my pain, my hurts, my disappointments and failures, etc. Oh yes, and how all the pain that you are going through hurts God too, and makes God all the more desiring to heal you of that pain.

    No mention of the need for repentance. No mention of the fact that no matter what your circumstances or background God is still holy and man is still without excuse for his sins and cannot approach God while sinful. No mention of HOW YOU HURT GOD AND SEPARATED YOURSELF FROM HIM WITH YOUR SINS. And no mention of no matter how bad or wretched your life was, you still owe God nothing but thanks because it is due to Him that you exist in the first place, and by virtue of your existence you still receive His common grace.

    The bottom line, prianka, is that though I may preach Christ wrong, I am still doing good because my words are based on what the Bible actually says. And all of these sincere loving people that are preaching error out of pure hearts need to be sat down and taken aside like Priscilla and Aquila did Apollos so that they can receive instruction so that they may preach the Word of God more perfectly. Priscilla and Aquila did not sit back and pray that God restore Apollos, that the truth be revealed to him. THEY IMMEDIATELY ACTED TO STOP APOLLOS FROM PREACHING ERROR. Why? Because it was about the gospel of Jesus Christ, not about Apollos having the privilege of being a preacher or doing God a favor by using his great eloquence in the ministry. It is all about Jesus Christ, not about man. People think that God’s grace and forgiveness make it all about man. No, actually God’s grace and forgiveness are all about GOD. Everything starts with God and comes back to God so that it glorifies God. That is the true gospel, and if you aren’t preaching it, then you aren’t doing anybody any good, including yourself. If God is not being worshiped in spirit and in truth, God rejects the worship. That is what these “touch not mine anointed”, “judge not”, “let the wheat and tares grow together”, “speak evil of no man” people need to stop resisting and go ahead and accept, because it is not about them, but rather all about God.

  180. Diane said

    Prianka,

    What you said about prayer is so true and needed in our lives. Perhaps we could continue to encourage one another to pray more and perhaps even share testimonies and how God moved when His people prayed. There is a post about Prevailing in Prayer under the “Prayer” category, perhaps we could encourage each other and share our encouragement there.

  181. prianka said

    I totally agree with you Diane we need to be more prayerful. I find that knowledge of doctrine doesnt bring one closer to GOD. Why do people fall? Because they dont pray, christians dont like to pray these days they like to argue and contest and show off which is very sad. Jesus ministry was full of prayer, oh how many things would have been avoided if we just prayed.

    I will surely look up the prayer section on your suggestion.

    Healtheland sorry but i do not agree with you that we are meant to read the bible more than we pray, it is not a scriptural conclusion. Knowing the word is not enough, even the devil knows the scriptures and he quoted it when he tempted JESUS. But how come Christ overcame the temptations? Cause he had the Word in him and he was PRAYERFUL and fasting at the same time. We cannot compromise prayer with scripture the two are equally important and one should not take preminence over the other.

    You might be doing good by preaching the Word but HOW OFTEN DO YOU PRAY? Brother you cant overcome temptations if you dont pray, you cant develop the fruits of the Spirit if you dont pray, you cant touch souls if you dont pray and preaching is not enough . ARE YOU ANNOINTED? What was the difference between the pharisees and Jesus? His ministry was annoited and thats why people changed but the pharisees preached from the flesh sure they were “preaching” but how many souls did they win? Like i said before its the ANNOINTING THAT BREAKS THE YOKE,

    I am not contesting your authority to preach or saying you do not know the word of God, all am saying is CHRISTIANS ARE NOT PRAYING ENOUGH. PERIOD. Prayer is what brings you closer to God, when you seek him in prayer then you will know his specific will for your life in other words your true calling. We might be doing good but are we following the timing of God? Even though Jesus was the Messiah, His ministry had a TIMING, even if he was to go about doing good at the wedding he told his mother”… my time has not yet come…”

    Maybe some of these ministers are not supposed to be front runners, some people can just presume that ” ok am a good preacher, am charismatic i think i should open a ministry” Thats not enough, that you have a great voice doesnt mean you are meant for the choir. We should pray and seek his will for us cause we might not be given the grace or unction for a particular minitry and we just delve in to it with intensity and end up offending people and greiving ourselves. I agree you are doing good but IS THIS YOUR CALLING? If it is am very happy for you.

    On the issue of mormons and muslims, even though they are in error we are not to be haughty towards them some of them know no other way as their ancestors were in this religion. Jesus still came to die for them its up to us to ask for guidance and power in preaching the true gospel to them cause thE POWER OF THE GOSPEL CAN CHANGE ANYONE. I have muslim friends who are now christians, atheists who have surrendered to Jesus this work is out of our hands, only Jesus can save. We are only vessels and are nothing of our own. I have seen people having the right doctrine but are one of the most wicked people ever, so your doctrine doesnt count either its the way you live and how treat people. Some people pride themselves with doing the work of God. You cannot judge or measure your good Healtheland or be so sure of yourself, wait for God to vindicate you, dont say stuff like “.. am doing good…” You are not doing God a favour instead you are doing yourself a favour, for he can raise up stones to worship Him.

    Be humble.

  182. Fran said

    Humility, not intelligence, has always been the heart quality that moves God to speak to us and enables us to hear Him clearly. It is the humble, not the smart, that God guides and teaches.
    Ps.25:9

  183. Diane said

    Job???

    Healthland was pretty good, but out of curiosity, why the name change?

  184. Job said

    Diane:

    Well, John Kaniecki challenged me to give up the anonymity a few weeks back, and I decided that he was right, especially since I have a Bill Keller devotional on here that said pretty much the same thing.

  185. prianka said

    Please can someone explain what is meant by oneness pentecostalism? I read the posts on it and i still dont get fully what you guys mean, i am really curious to find out.

  186. Kyle said

    In it’s most simplistic non biblical form Think about a god who can shift change like in sci-fi movie. You know the movies where the person can change into other things yet it’s still the same person. Oneness is just crazy.

    Kyle

  187. Kyle said

    Rob & GCM Watch

    Rob,

    I guess when you say deeply perverted you are implying those who formerly homosexuals. The problem with your idea is that Jesus saved us from ALL manners of sin regardless of what it was. Think about Saul (Paul) “prior” to his conversion. How many Christians were persecuted and killed under his tyranny. Think of the families that were torn apart. Think of the Christians that denied Christ in his presence just so they wouldn’t get killed. Paul was probably similar to the Islamo-fascist in his blood lust to persecute and kill Christians. That being said how can Paul be elevated to Apostleship where someone who was a Homosexual prior to salvation be denied the right to become a Church leader? However, I do understand “WHY” you would feel this. Today’s culture is filled with homosexual this and homosexual that. Ever day its HIV AIDS. Every company now supports “gay” events. Our Children our being groomed for this lifestyle at the age of 5 by having to read the Book, “King and King”. Every Rap video talks about threesomes and promoting Lesbian/bi-sexuality. Gen Xers like me and Gen Ys coming up are experimenting with Homosexuality at an alarming rate. So I understand WHY you would feel this way. However, understand that your perception is based on present culture and rightly you could come to the conclusion that there is NO WAY someone could be saved from this lifestyle and then become a leader in the Church. However, I must inform you that perception and truth are mutually exclusive. Once you have “truly” been saved the Lord can use you as he sees fit regardless of ones past.

    Pastor Foster,

    You may want to direct Rob to your website and have him purchase your book. It’s testimonies like this that can really be an eye opener.

    Kyle

  188. Angie said

    I didn’t know Jakes had a gay son until very recently.

  189. Job said

    prianka:

    A oneness pentecostal is a person who claims to be Christian but denies the existence of Trinity. They have various ways of explaining their doctrine – mostly as excuses and justifications to hold onto the doctrine in order to justify remaining in their denominations and following their pastors – but there are four main ways.

    1. Manifestations. The Father “appears” as the Father at some times, the Son at other times, and the Holy Spirit at other times. They have no real explanation for how it is possible for the Father to be in one place, the Son in another, and the Holy Spirit in yet another (as happens many times in scripture) except to abandon the literal interpretation of the Bible or resort to “with God all things are possible.” This, incidentally, is similar to some of the gnostic heresies of the third century that claimed that Jesus Christ wasn’t actually real in the physical sense, but only appeared to be. I guess you can say that rather than saying “The Son came from the Father” this view of oneness says “The Father came as the Son.”

    2. Divisions of the whole. This is “the egg theory.” God the Father is the yolk, God the son is the white, God the Holy Spirit is the shell.

    3. Emanations. God the Father is akin to the sun. God the Father sends forth pieces of Himself, Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit, like the sun sends light, heat, rays, etc. and they are able to return to Him in that same manner.

    4. Relationship titles. Just as it is possible for a man to be a father (to his sons and daughters) and a son (to his own father), an uncle (to the children of his brothers and sisters) and a nephew (to the brothers and sisters of his father), etc. God is capable of relating to Himself as Father, Son, Spirit, etc. The difference between #4 and #1 is that God “appears” as the Son or the Spirit from time to time, and temporarily (which is similar to docetism) but #4 is permanent and refers to the role that God plays at any given time.

    To be fair, #3 was KINDA the position of the early church as articulated by Tertullian, and is very adequate looking only at the New Testament. But please know that Tertullian articulated that formulation as the best way of of opposing #1 and #4. But the orthodox Cappadocian formulation does a better job of including how Trinity was depicted in the Old Testament. #2 is also superficially workable, but it sacrifices the way that God is described in both Testaments. The only reason why they do so is to contrive a way of justifying “why we are right and you guys are wrong”, and to that end they go back through history and try to claim that virtually every heretic that was kicked out of the church was a oneness pentecostal in order to justify their “unbroken chain of the true church” version of church history. They claim that the Trinity came from either gnosticism or Greco – Roman paganism, but they cannot come up with a story of when or how that is consistent with the facts of what gnostics and Greco – Roman pagans actually believed. The gods of the gnostics and the pagans have nothing to do with the God of the Bible, and they are relying on you thinking that their pagan systems involved a bunch of “little Jehovahs” when in fact the Greco – Roman pagan gods were part of nature … river gods, tree gods, rain gods, etc.

    But the main thing to realize oneness pentecostals have the same view of the Godhead as did Old Testament Jews, and as do current Jews, Muslims, Mormons, deists, and Jehovah’s Witnesses, all of whom deny the deity of Jesus Christ. The difference is where Jews, Muslims, Mormons, deists, and Jehovah’s Witnesses deny the deity of Jesus Christ, oneness pentecostals on one had affirm His deity while with the other hand negating it by denying His existence.

  190. Regarding Oneness, some of the other false doctrines and how they came about, these links might help:

    CARM: Oneness Pentecostal theology also known as Jesus only theology

    Let Us Reason Ministries: The Nicene Council, what was it really about? (Oneness and Jehovah’s Witnesses are misinformed about this and it shows where folks like Tertullian had to begin the defense of what was already understood and accepted, that being the Trinity although not previously referred to with that specific term. Trinitarian doctrine always was Christian doctrine.)

    Ariel Ministries: Jewishness and The Trinity – By Dr. Arnold Fruchtenbaum

    Really the Trinity is not something that can be explained by analogy, because God does not mimic anything in our physical Universe.

    God is not like an egg, because Christ being the image of God is not like an egg white to an egg yolk. We were made in the image of God, Genesis 1:27, that is through Christ, Hebrews 1, but Christ is the image of God, 2 Corinthians 4:3-4.

    We were created, Christ always existed, John 1

    God is not like the sun with rays and heat, although Tertullian was doing the best he could for his given resources. The Son is not a bit of heat or a ray of God, but the very image of and One with His Father.

    I once considered to myself that perhaps Christ is like a clone of God, told everything by His Father, but clones are distinct and separate, God is One. So I had to scrap that thought about as quickly as it came into my head. Although Christ makes it clear He speaks from what His Father gave Him, John 12:50.

    I’ve had to conclude there is no way I can use facets of God’s creations to explain who God is. He is Father, Son and Holy Spirit and they are One, Matthew 28:19-20.

    With the other 2 Oneness methods that Job mentioned, I think my words above show that the “Manifestations” angle is totally a non-starter. The “Relationship titles” angle has God doing role playing without fully acknowledging that all 3, Father, Son and Holy Spirit all exists all the time and Christ is not His Father at any time. The Father knows the time of the end of this world and the Son does not, Matthew 24:36.

    One good theology question is, did Christ resurrect Himself or was He resurrected? It’s clear Christ was resurrected, 1 Peter 1:3. You have to have 3, yet all 3 are One and God. They are One of Spirit, something we can’t fully grasp. A husband and wife are one flesh, but are NOT one spirit. Husband and wife do not walk in full and total agreement on every jot always.

    We the creations are simply not able to explain the creator, except to say who He is and know it by faith.

  191. Rob said

    Kyle,

    THANKS A LOT for your response (seriously). I actually thought about the example you used with Paul’s life and testimony, as God called him to be an “Apostle” to the Gentiles. Some have said that “His killing of Christians before his conversion” was Paul’s the “thorn in his flesh” – He taught so passionately how precious and peculiar God’s people are, and the love Christians should have one for one another.

    When I said “deeply perverted” I not only had homosexuals in mind, but serial killers, child molesters and killers…anyone with an horrendous and horrific past, deeply embedded in evil.
    I know that these people can be declared righteous by God through their faith in Jesus Christ. But can they become church leaders? I know that all have sinned and come short of God and that none will ever be perfect on this side of eternity.

    I was just wondering about this “blameless” trait a “bishop” must possess as a qualification described in Titus, whether this trait as described is considering the total make-up of an individual (before / after salvation).

    Again, I appreciate your response.

    Rob

  192. johnkaniecki said

    Job,

    I just read why you changed your name!
    I am proud of you!!
    Stand up for Jesus, we will be judged by our words.

    Nice Job, job.

    Love,

    John

  193. Eden Hadassah said

    These are the concluding remarks of Ariel
    Ministries…

    “In the Hebrew Scriptures you will also find all three personalities of the Godhead referred to in single passages. Two examples are Isaiah 48:12-16 and 63:7-14.

    Because of the significance of the first passage, it will be quoted:

    “Listen to Me, O Jacob, and Israel, My called: I am He, I am the first, I am also the last. Indeed My hand has laid the foundation of the earth, and My right hand has stretched out the heavens; when I call to them, they stand up together. All of you, assemble yourselves, and hear! Who among them has declared these things? The LORD loves him; he shall do His pleasure on Babylon, and His arm shall be against the Chaldeans. I, even I, have spoken; yes, I have called him, I have brought him, and his way will prosper. Come near to Me, hear this: I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, I was there. And now the Lord GOD and His Spirit have sent Me.”

    It should be noted that the speaker refers to himself as the one who is responsible for the creation of the heavens and the earth. It is clear that he cannot be speaking of anyone other than God. But then in verse 16, the speaker refers to himself using the pronouns of I and me and then distinguishes himself from two other personalities. He distinguishes himself from the Lord YHVH and then from the Spirit of God. Here is the Tri-Unity as clearly defined as the Hebrew Scriptures make it.

    In the second passage, there is a reflection back to the time of the Exodus where all three personalities were present and active. The Lord YHVH is referred to in verse seven, the Angel of YHVH in verse nine, and the Spirit of God in verses 10, 11, and 14. While often throughout the Hebrew Scriptures God refers to Himself as being the one solely responsible for Israel’s redemption from Egypt, in this passage three personalities are given credit for it. Yet no contradiction is seen since all three comprise the unity of the one Godhead.

    Conclusion
    The teaching of the Hebrew Scriptures, then, is that there is a plurality of the Godhead. The first person is consistently called YHVH, while the second person is given the names of YHVH, the Angel of YHVH and the Servant of YHVH. Consistently and without fail, the second person is sent by the first person. The third person is referred to as the Spirit of YHVH or the Spirit of God or the Holy Spirit. He, too, is sent by the first person but is continually related to the ministry of the second person.

    If the concept of the Tri-Unity of God is not Jewish according to modern rabbis, then neither are the Hebrew Scriptures. Jewish believers in Yeshua (Jesus), or Messianic Jews, cannot be accused of having slipped into paganism when they hold to the fact that Yeshua is the divine Son of God. He is the same one of whom Moses wrote when the LORD said:

    “Behold, I send an Angel before you to keep you in the way and to bring you into the place which I have prepared. Beware of him and obey his voice; do not provoke him, for he will not pardon your transgressions; for My name is in him. But if you indeed obey his voice and do all that I speak, then I will be an enemy to your enemies and an adversary to your adversaries. For My angel will go before you and bring you in to the Amorites and the Hittites and the Perizzites and the Canaanites and the Hivites and the Jebusites; and I will cut them off” (Exodus 23:20-23).

    New Testament Light
    In keeping with the teachings of the Hebrew Scriptures, the New Testament clearly recognizes that there are three persons in the Godhead, although it becomes quite a bit more specific. The first person is called the Father while the second person is called the Son. The New Testament answers the question of Proverbs 30:4: “…What is His name, and what is His son’s name, If you know?” His son’s name is Yeshua (Jesus). In accordance with the Hebrew Scriptures, he is sent by God to be the Messiah, but this time as a man instead of as an angel. Furthermore, he is sent for a specific purpose: to die for our sins. In essence, what happened is that God became a man (not that man became God) in order to accomplish the work of atonement.

    The New Testament calls the third person of the Godhead the Holy Spirit. Throughout the New Testament he is related to the work of the second person, in keeping with the teaching of the Hebrew Scriptures. We see, then, that there is a continuous body of teaching in both the Hebrew Scriptures and the New Testament relating to the Tri-Unity of God. “

  194. johnkaniecki said

    Eden,

    Thank you.

    Love,

    John

  195. Rick said

    Hi all.

    Let me start off by saying that I am not a christian in the literalist sense of the word. This either will give you a base to discredit my understanding of the bible out of hand, give you a base to offer me some reading suggestions, or a base to to criticize or preach to. Hopefully the second.

    Since there are so many threads here and I prefer not to start one based on this, this seems like as good a place as any to post my questions that I hope can be answered honestly and educatedly.

    I am 38 years old and was raised a baptist. At the age of 14 or so, I really started internally questioning things. I then posed them to my church elders, some pastors here and there and most got arguements in circles, ad hominems, and arguments from authority. I hope to either get a direct answer or an I don’t know instead of such arguements. I recently decided to go back to college to persue a career in gentetics. I chose to attend a baptist college in order to aquire some knowledge from those who seemed to be better at determining context than I and be better at explaining things. I will start my questions by posting one question I posed to my philosophy instructor who also has a docterate in bible history. He teaches old testament, new testament, biblical interpretation, poetry, ethics, and a few others. He is also a baptist minister and has been for 20+ years. He could not answer my question other than to say he could not answer it other than to propose devine intervention. Here is that question. If i get responses without attacks and find a willingness or interest in answering other questions I have, I would like to post more. If those on this board prefer I didn’t pose such questions and do not like my line of questioning, I will not bother anyone again as I do not wish to be where I am not welcome. I do follow many biblical tenants but also have many issues with the bible or at least my interpretation of it. I am also a 32 degree freemason and state so to not hide myself under any pretenses when it comes to how you may or may not perceive me. Many of my fellow masons do not agree with my beliefs and as may be a surprise to many, die hard christians. Here is the 1st question I posed to my instructor.

    Question #1:

    TO start I will post KJV Mark scriptures to introduce my question…

    32And they came to a place which was named Gethsemane: and he saith to his disciples, Sit ye here, while I shall pray. 33And he taketh with him Peter and James and John, and began to be sore amazed, and to be very heavy; 34And saith unto them, My soul is exceeding sorrowful unto death: tarry ye here, and watch. 35And he went forward a little, and fell on the ground, and prayed that, if it were possible, the hour might pass from him. 36And he said, Abba, Father, all things are possible unto thee; take away this cup from me: nevertheless not what I will, but what thou wilt. 37And he cometh, and findeth them sleeping, and saith unto Peter, Simon, sleepest thou? couldest not thou watch one hour? 38Watch ye and pray, lest ye enter into temptation. The spirit truly is ready, but the flesh is weak. 39And again he went away, and prayed, and spake the same words. 40And when he returned, he found them asleep again, (for their eyes were heavy,) neither wist they what to answer him. 41And he cometh the third time, and saith unto them, Sleep on now, and take your rest: it is enough, the hour is come; behold, the Son of man is betrayed into the hands of sinners. 42Rise up, let us go; lo, he that betrayeth me is at hand.

    Now my question is, if jesus went into the garden alone and the desciples fell asleep, then how did anyone know what prayer jesus prayed in order to write it into scripture?

    I hope there is some reasoned responses to this as my instructor who has a doctorate in new and old testament and who has been a minister for many years could not answer this question. I have posed it to preachers in my area who also could only say that I wasn’t christian enough to understand the word of god, or that our minds were merely mortal where god’s word was innate and undeniable and that I shouldn’t question god’s word. To which I replied with a scripture with which i pretty much live by. Test all things and hold fast to that which is good. Or as some might consider a conspiritorial website quote…Ask questions demand answers. My instructor merely said it was a good and legitimate question that he had no answer other than devine intervention. I appreciated his honesty. Thanks in advance.

    In search of truth,

    Rick

  196. johnkaniecki said

    Rick,

    It is so good to have you with us. I appreciate your honesty and openness. I would encourage your questions. If you read the gospels in the Bible you will find that some of Jesus’ best teachings come from questions posed to Him. Sometimes He answered the questions with questions, sometimes He told stories which taught greater truths. As when Jesus was asked “Who is my neighbour?” then Jesus told the parable of the Good Samaritan. At the conclusion of the parable he asked the man “Which of the three was neighbour unto those that fell among thieves?” The man answered, “He he shewed mercy.” Then Jesus says “Go and do likewise.” You see Jesus could have answered the question with an “everyone” but he showed wisdom and told one of the most memorable parables of all history. It’s something that children can learn and it would stick with them. It is something so plain in its meaning.

    Let me discuss a question I had with the Bible. Have you ever read the book of Job? Its not very much like the gospels. For example in the gospels Jesus tells many memorable parables and teachings. I’m sure in the three years of His ministry that He told these tales over and over again in different forms. The Sermon on the Mount in Mathew is extremely similar to a discourse given in Luke. There are minor changes but things are on the same line. I can imagine Jesus repeating these teachings to many different groups and peoples. Perhaps he didn’t do it the same way each time but modified it. This would be consistent with how human beings interact.

    Now take the Book of Job. Okay now you got five characters that are human. Furthermore these characters get in a heated conversation. Four are criticizing Job and really ripping into him. Then Job responds to defend himself. Look at the nature of the language that is exhibited. It is poetry to rival Shakespeare. Yet there is no evidence of a scribe ever being present. Finally in the end God himself speaks from the heavens. Now examine Chapters one and two of Job. Here we find a record of a conversation in Heaven between God and Satan.

    I could have easily explained away your scripture in Mark by the following logic. Jesus returned from the dead. He was in the presence of His disciples. On the Road to Emmaus in Luke 24 Jesus explains everything about Himself from the Old Testament. I think a satisfactory answer would be that Jesus explained to the disciples both what He said and what it’s meaning was.

    But I really don’t believe in that answer at all. The phenomana that you point out exists too many times in the Bible to give a trite answer. The answer I will give you is from 2Timothy 3:16, “All scripture is given by inspiration of God.”

    This not only answers your question of how these events were recorded but gives the Word of God a power unlike any other book.

    Conceive of an all powerful, all Loving being. This being wants the best for His creation, or mankind. He has given them a very special book called the Bible. This book explains God to us. Yet it can’t be simple because God is so complex that simple won’t do. Even with the Word of God today we have thousands of unknown questions about God.

    God realized that we being finite needed help to understand Him. So there is the Bible. Now there comes a second area which is needed that is faith.

    Faith is not a blind faith nor is it just a simple belief. Faith is taking God’s Word and putting it in action. It is like an experiment. If you do such and such than these are the outcomes.

    A very simple command or statement is “As you sow so shall you reap.” On one level this basically is saying how you treat others, others will do the same. I would challenge you to do this. One day go around and with a pleasant smile say hello to everyone that you meet. Than observe and mentally record their reactions. The next day go around and curse at every one you meet. Logic and experience tells us before we do these things what the outcome will be. Yet let me go one step further at what I have observed in greeting people this way. Use a certain phrase like “Hi, How are you?”, or “Good Morning,” or “Have a nice day.” What you will find is that the people who greet you will reply more often with the exact words you use to greet them!

    Faith is not a blind thing. The Bible I was told by a man of God is like a road map. You can always tell where you are going and where you are by looking at it. As one grows more comfortable in walking with the Lord and sincerely applies His teachings to their lives things will happen.

    One is that you will find the truth in these teachings and two you will find these small things that trouble you no longer seem to hold significance. You will get ten answers for every additional question you get.

    I just urge you to begin the walk with the Lord. Try to read the gospels and appreciate what Jesus was really about. Try to tune out what others have taught you. Instead read his words as if your reading them for the first time. Since you are 38 you will find that some of the points established in the Bible have been proven already. You will see that types of behaviour exhibited by its characters are the same as you have seen in your own life.

    I will pray for you. I don’t know if my answer will help you at all. I have used many words, perhaps to many. Ultimately God must work on your heart for you to see and that is beyond my control.

    Let me say there is a long way to accepting the teaching that “You will reap what you sow” and then seeing the meaning of “loving one’s enemy” or “turning the other cheek”. But this chasm could be spanned in one simple event or many years.

    Love,

    John

  197. Charles D. said

    John:
    Go on with your Bible reading/understanding self. :)

  198. Rick said

    Thank you John for your sincerity. I hope my response doesn’t incite hostility. It isn’t my intent. I do not have no desire to change someone’s beliefs or get no thrill in trying to prove someone wrong and it isn’t what I am trying to do here. So please bear with me.

    I could have easily explained away your scripture in Mark by the following logic. Jesus returned from the dead. He was in the presence of His disciples. On the Road to Emmaus in Luke 24 Jesus explains everything about Himself from the Old Testament. I think a satisfactory answer would be that Jesus explained to the disciples both what He said and what it’s meaning was. But I really don’t believe in that answer at all. The phenomana that you point out exists too many times in the Bible to give a trite answer. (Thank you again for your honesty).

    For me, an idea that Jesus told his personal prayer to the desciples after resurection isn’t satisfactory. If he wanted them to know what it was, he could just have easily invited them into the garden with him and and made it a spectacle for all to see. He didn’t. He had them wait. Not just the ones he had stand guard but all of them. He seems to have intended for his prayer to be personal. But I am just explaining why I do not hold it as satisfactory for myself and not as an arguement toward you which you stated you do not belive anyway.

    The answer I will give you is from 2Timothy 3:16, “All scripture is given by inspiration of God.”

    I know this answer has deep meaning for many Christians. Faith is a good thing to have. I have faith myself that there is a creator and a faithful hope in imortality of the soul.

    This not only answers your question of how these events were recorded but gives the Word of God a power unlike any other book.

    Inspired by God answers my question but it isn’t adequate. It may be adequate enough for many but, for me at least, it is a dangerous precedent. The Koran is believed to be inspired by god as well. Do you believe it is? There are good things in teh Koran but there are also things that do not fit well with what my heart tells me is upright, as is such with the bible. Faith, as I said, can be a good thing. It can also be a bad thing. Many believed in or had faith in Hitler, but it doesn’t mean their faith was well founded.

    I am not stating that what I believe is any better than anyone else. I know I am faulty. To me I commit one of the worst sins, and I use the word sin just to relate meaning. that “sin” is inaction. To me the “lord’s work” isn’t building churches, isn’t going to church on sunday, isn’t recruiting what some have called “soldiers” for christ. It is mowing my neighbors yard when they can’t do it themselves. It is buying someone some groceries when they can’t afford to eat, it is driving someone to the doctor when they cannot drive themselves, it is helping someone repair their roof when they have no means of doing so. This is what I believe in my heart to be the “lords work”. It is what Christ himself did. He healed the sick and eased the heavy burdens. Desire to do so isn’t enough.

    Christ’s death on the cross is a great allegory for me. As I see it, it teaches self sacrafice for the benefit of others. But, I do not perceive it as many do. I do not think it was Christ’s intent for others to use him as a scapegoat. But that is another story altogether and I am getting a bit off onto something else.

    I do read the bible. I have read it many times over. I cannot like many quote scripture numbers along with the scripture. There aren’t many passages that I know the exact location of. I know the passages, but the exact locations, I do not. John 3:16, Ephisisans 6:1, 1 Thessalonians 5:21 are the only exact scriptures i can surmise off the top of my head. But i do read the bible quite often and can paraphrase many of its verses. Being able to quote scriptures to others has little value. In some instances it makes one look foolish.

    There is a time for turning the other cheek and a time for semi-passive resistance. Such as Jesus and the money changers. One of my favorite. Christ appears to be a rebel in many ways. An adversary to the status quo.

    I personally enjoy much of the new testament with a few qualms here and there. I have many qualms with the old testament. Many many many. My heart guides me. Least I believe it to be my heart, self conscious, or however one wishes to perceive it.

    Most all of walk around with beams in our eyes all the while trying to remove motes from others eyes. There is a lot of that in these forums here alone.

    I can honestly say that I have no substance to back up my belief in a creator. It is just that…a belief. I cannot prove immortality of the soul but it s a faithful hope. Therefore I can completely acknowledge that I can be entirely wrong about everything I believe. It doesn’t stop me from asking tough questions about my own beliefs and posing tough questions to others to get some resolve and continue a futile search for truth. With that being said, I will pose another question.

    In the old testament, we are lead to feel badly for the isrealites bondage in egypt. Moses murders an egyptian albiet i can see the validation of defending someone against attack. He flees for his life. Comes back to rescue them from that sorta fate, and then god through Moses attacks the Egyptains with much furvor. Not just the enslaver, but the entire nation suffers many atrocities. Then he manages to get them out of Egypt into a desert of nothingness where there living conditions seem to be as poor as in Egypt. He climbs a mountain, gets commandments from god. He comes down the mountain and has a coniption fit and orders them to kill each other. We find the commandments state thou shalt not kill, which my instructor who teaches hebrew says should be translated to thou shalt not murder unjustly. God then sends them into jericho and cannan where they wreak havoc on all in the land in order to get their promised land. THese peoples are considered wicked by God and therefore the murder is justified in biblical eyes. Yet why send people to murder people, justly or not? God destroyed sodom and gomarrah on his own…all by himself. WHy not these other places. Why not send a flood, a hurricane, or fire raining down from heaven like he did in sodom. Why command a man, whom you just told not to murder/kill, to commit atrocities? What purpose does that serve? Why was lot justified in offering his children as whores to protect angels and seen as ritious and worth saving? It has been explained to me that he really didn’t want them to touch his daughters and in a way plead for them not to. But, If he was so rightous, why did he chose to stay in sodom and gommarah anyway? Why not leave prior to being rescued by angels. I also cannot understand even with the sorta advantage his daughters took of lot, drunk or not, how lot could have performed intercourse with them without knowing what he was doing. I myself have been drunk in my past. I have been around drunks. When you are drunk as a man as to be incoherent, sex isn’t happening. You pass out, fall asleep, or cannot function in those ways. Now a woman can be taken advantage of when they are incoherent as their biology doesn’t limit them from being taken advantage of. A man on the other hand? I have heard the stories and seen the tv shows where folks wake up the next day wondering what they done. Men included. But it isn’t as easy to buy into if you have been drunk yourself. You eventually recall it all. Yes alcohol can lower inhibitions but it can’t force you into things. Folks may wish they wouldn’t have done such afterward, but are coherent enough. I may be being to critical here and unreasonable but this is difficult for me to grasp. Also, why was lot drinking in the first place? Alcoholic drink is something that you can easily rocognize. It definately tastes differently than grape juice. Would a rightous man drink himself into oblivion? The Koran tells this story a bit differently. WHat is more worthy of punishment of death, incest or homosexuality? Even if lots daughters managed to do all this without lots acknowledgement, shouldn’t they have been struck down. They were allowed to continue in there pregancy to birth sons. The Egyptians had there completely innocent first born murdered. Justification?

    I struggle tremendously with these sorts of things and have many more questions, especially from the old testament where the God portrayed there seems to be an egoistic tyrant. Again though, I accept the fact that my interpretation can be way off base but it is hard for me to percieve it that way. THanks agian in advance and I hope I haven’t offended.

  199. Charles D. said

    As I attempted to turned off my computer for the night, yours was tghe last
    post and I was not about to read it due to the length and my tiredness. There were however, several comments that you made and if I can find this thread tomorrow – then I will add my 2cents worth.

    What I will share here is, as I read your comments, two thoughts were dominant in my mind:
    1) a comment made my a pastor I know: “Charles, some folks are going to hell, regardless and
    2) much of what you have said is not unlike words leading to the fall of 1/3 of the angels. I know for a fact that you are substituting works for faith and by so doing, you are not “doing the Lord’s work” as you have stated. Nor are you perfect and much of your belief rely too heavenly on the sum total of your experiences.
    That part about when a man is drunk “When you are drunk as a man as to be incoherent, sex isn’t happening.” is false. Maybe some men, maybe most men, but you state it as a universal principle. And, if you are wrong about that – then what else are you wrong about? That you are willing to risk your eternal soul on?

    Certainly, you are not a Christian as you have stated, so what are you after and why? You want to debate? You want to expound the results of your having read the Bible multiple times. What?

    Could your struggle have to do with sin sickness? If so, your approach is all wrong. Let go of some of the: “I could have easily,” “I think,”
    “But I really don’t believe,” and especially, “he could just have easily invited them into the garden with him and and made it a spectacle for all to see.”

    His ways are definitely not like your ways, nor, His thoughts as yours are. If you are in a position to put yourself and your abilities on a pedistal, then, demonstrate your intel wizardtry by curing some disease or solving a global problem that have wide-wide application.

    Charles

  200. Rick said

    Regardless of if your intent is malicious or good Charles, I hope not to enter into a quarrel with you as I have read what seems to be many quarrels you seem to be involved in in threads here. You could easily ignore me. I am attacking no one personally.

    I am not looking for debate but I also do not see debate negatively either. Debate can bring forth good fruit as well as bad.

    I am not on any pedestal either. There are many who are much more intelligent than I. Much more adapt at interpretation than I. I know I am not perfect. No one is.

    It is my intent Charles to put myself in a better position to help others and is one of many reasons for going back to school. My daughter is autistic to a slight degree. It is my hope that I can use my intelligence to help others understand, deal, and cope with such difficulties and also to maybe discover how to avoid this atrocity, treat it, or cure it. I also hope that I can help society by contributing to alleviating a global problem. I am not arrogant to believe I can solve global problems but it is a hope to do so. So what you suggest, I am attempting to do. I am not looking for rewards or to build mansions for myself in a heaven. Still we are all egoistic and I cannot say that I do not feel good when I help someone. Alleviating suffering is more important to me than myself if it comes down to my soul. Although the bible says not by works lest any man should boast, it also say we will be judged according to our works. I understand the difference it is portraying to some degree. I am not idiotic at least I don’t think I am.

    I will give you the benefit of the doubt that your tired and didn’t read my entire post throughly due to its length. Although I don’t personally believe Lot could have been taken advantage of to that degree, I give him the benefit of the doubt later and raise the question as to why wasn’t his daughters and their offspring punished in the same manner as the sodomites and the Egyptians. It is a legitimate question to me anyway.

    Life isn’t all or nothing. I can be just as right about one thing and wrong about another. Just because I may be perceived as being wrong on one issue, doesn’t mean that my life is a slippery slope and that I am wrong about everything. Slippery slopes are false arguments and hold little validity. They can be presented as true in retrospect in some instances, others they cannot. To propose them in advance is invalid. They cannot be proved that way and as such are pure speculation. Most think that Nicola Tesla was wrong about free energy and he is mocked to this day for believing such. Yet Tesla discovered or invented many things that are accepted and used today.

    Hell? Can it be justified as a loving punishment? 80 years of living an outstanding life without accepting Christ is justifiably a fit punishment to burn for all eternity as a man such as Jefferey dohmer? As a Christian I assume you will say yes. As just a man, if you were presented two people to punish and you could punish them both as well. If the only choice of punishment you could give was to burn them both at the stake, would you burn both Jeffery dohmer and the man who has lived a good life. What if the bad person was your own son or the even just the good person, would you burn them both? What if you weren’t given the direction of burning either. What if they said they were going to burn your son or a friend whom you were trying to lead to Christ and they were going to do it right in front of you. They chose to burn the good friend who was a good man and hadn’t excepted Christ because they believed it to be the worse of the two crimes. Would you then continue to think he deserved to be burned? Would you support the burning? I couldn’t. Eternal punishment by torture even for Dohmer is horrid and sadistic. Would it be more just to take the soul of Dohmer right out of existence if you had that power. Would it be more just to put dohmer through every bad action he had ever committed as a punishment and then forgive him? Isn’t there more love in such actions than to continually torment and punish someone for eternity?

    so what are you after and why? Truth mostly although I believe it to be like a needle in a haystack, I still hope it can be found.

    I do wonder if you automatically assume just because I am a Mason that I believe in everything is works. Forgiveness has nothing to do with works. It has to do with love and hope and know everyone with average mental capacity has the ability to change for the better. There is good in all even if minuscule. Whether people want to believe it or not, most Masons are hardcore Christians. Most I know do not like my questioning and ways of perceiving. So if that is your assumption or generalizations of all masons, you would be wrong. I am not stating that it is your assumption but it is a popular misconception.

    Believe it or not, I disagree with some Masonic writers as well.

    As a parent I do not demand worship from my children. I hope they love me as I love them but I do not threaten them with eternal death if they do not. It would sadden me deeply if they didn’t love me but don’t make commandments they they have no other love before me. Are they punished for doing things which i perceive to be wrong? Yes they are. But not eternally punished. They are not abused, tortured, burned, given to boils, plagues, and other atrocities.

    I have learned many things by listening to folks and posing questions. One being that Lucifer is not Satan nor is he a separated demon or entity. Lucifer is merely another name for Venus/ phosphorus, or son of the morning, or light bearer, and that the Lucifer term in the bible was meant as a allegorical description for the king of Babylon. The interpretation has been misunderstood by many. Now even this interpretation may be up for debate, but it makes the most logical sense compared to anything I have read or been told previously. If read literally as Satan, then Jesus could be misconstrued as Satan when he says he is the bright and morning star.

    I have hope in universality. Love and compassion of all mankind by the creator even unto the afterlife. Why do I perceive hell not to be of a compassionate god? Because it is eternal punishment for finite offense. I realize punishment is necessary but then forgiveness should kick in. If not, then the punisher has serious sadistic issues. But I don’t deny that I could be wrong. That I could be sin sick as you put it. That everything in the bible is literal, which can be discounted with parables and allegories as Christ is not Venus else it is merely astral worship. Then again, why the need to be worshiped anyway? Respected, loved, appreciated. I can understand those. But worshiped? Bowed down to. Submission? These are desires of dictators and tyrants if it becomes a demand followed by a punishment for not doing so. Maybe I am going to hell. I cannot discern that and neither can anyone else for certainty. Just because someone believes something and repeats it does not make it so.

    If god is who i hope he is, then eternal hell will never be a part of my punishment. If he is that way, then it only leads to more and more questions concerning his true self.

    His thoughts are not my thoughts? Maybe not? But are his thoughts your thoughts? Are you God enough to know what his thoughts are? Can you discard out of hand the dead sea scrolls, the book of jasher, the book of Enoch, or any other proposed lost book of the bible? Can you support the council of nicea? Constantine? and the proliferation of Christianity through conquest?

    Do you believe satanists, wiccans, Hindus, luciferians, buddist, taoists, and every other sect in the world is wrong, including denominational churches besides yours? Do you honestly think all satanist believe Satan even exists? Most don’t. Luciferian belief has most nothing to do with a deity as it is a belief to be responsible for ones own actions and to stand against tyranny. I recently watched a catholic film on masonry and how masons were perceived as evil due to their secrecy in Europe and their fight to take separate from monarchy. If it were not for this, the USA would not have been set up in the hopes of any sort of free choice at all. We may all be under the church of england or Catholicism and be ruled by monarchy based on Devine Right to rule to this day. Some say we are and there was never any intent on freedom. That is debatable as well.

    Doing good things because they are good and not to gain a reward or to be thought well of is admirable. TO truly care for others is something that shouldn’t be entirely discarded in support of mere faith. To strive for betterment is reasonable. Even Christ said we could be or it was his hope we could be better than even he if I remember correctly.

  201. Charles D. said

    Rickyeeeeeeeeeeeee

    It is the subtlety in which you speak that is hellishly scarey; that is: if I were not secured in my faith it would be, but I my friend, would like nothing better (at least right now), than to confront the wrong-headed, circular logic in which you use apparently to make a point.

    You are well read and of above average intelligence seemingly, at least you had read my previous comments on several threads. Of all of the many threads, you choose John to isolate on a heretofore closed thread (and I know the reason why). But John too is saved and strong in the faith and he handed you your proverbial “head.” Then! What do you do? In a very “Did God really say you could not eat from that druit” More “subtlety.”

    You depend on your preceived knowledge more than you depend on God. You interpose your (reasoning as a man) regarding spiritual things, then, toss around the ole “invalid” tag. Example:

    “Hell? Can it be justified as a loving punishment? 80 years of living an outstanding life without accepting Christ is justifiably a fit punishment to burn for all eternity as a man such as Jefferey dohmer? and the man who has lived a good life. What if the bad person was your own son or the even just the good person, would you burn them both? What if you weren’t given the direction of burning either. What if they said they were going to burn your son or a friend whom you were trying to lead to Christ and they were going to do it right in front of you. They chose to burn the good friend who was a good man and hadn’t excepted Christ because they believed it to be the worse of the two crimes. Would you then continue to think he deserved to be burned? Would you support the burning? I couldn’t. Eternal punishment by torture even for Dohmer is horrid and sadistic. Would it be more just to take the soul of Dohmer right out of existence if you had that power. Would it be more just to put dohmer through every bad action he had ever committed as a punishment and then forgive him? Isn’t there more love in such actions than to continually torment and punish someone for eternity?”

    Please notice how you built your entire premise on humanly thoughts, actions, words, and deeds; but regarding spiritual things as I have mentioned above. If I were given directions by whom? “What if you weren’t given the direction of burning either” answer that question and that will make clearer.

    Your hypothesis would be stronger, were it not for the fact that we all have to go through a little thing called death before arriving at the point in the after life where such punishments AND rewards are given.

    Be assured that sentimentality will play no part in the day of the Lord. That is why it is absolutely crucial that you get your butt in gear while you are housed in that earhtly tent with it many coats of sentimentality, emotions, feelings, knowing, thinking, etc. Be not deceived, you can live as good of live (as you have described it) as you can or can engage to do, then, you think that on that day your works
    will get you a pass? I don’t think so. To my way of thinking, what you have offered here as works is like “goldbricking” while the true workers are doing the labor.

    Masonic will not save you, the text books will not save you, the preceived knowledge that you think you have acquired will not save you. NOTHING SHORT OF A RIGHTOUS RELATIONSHIP WITH CHRIST WILL SAVE YOU.

    Your post is equally, if not longer than, lastnights. I’m tired already. I could speak to the errors in thinking for days and page after page. You are smarter than you will willingly let on, therefore, my time can be better speant and my energies directed towards someone that really seeking and want to seek Jesus.

    Have a good one,

    Charles

  202. johnkaniecki said

    Rick,

    Glad you are still with us and being honest. Charles means well I am certain of that.

    I will address the concept of Hell. God is the giver of everything most important of them is Love. In fact God is Love.

    Now would an all knowing, all powerful and all Loving God send people to Hell? Note that though God has all knowledge and all power a correct name for him would not be Power or Knowledge. It is not so much that He is sending people to hell but selecting the righteous for Heaven.

    The primary role of Jesus was to repair the fellowship with God which was lost in the Garden by Adam and Eve’s sin. Since then every man save Jesus has sinned. This sin is a destructive barrier to God. Yet God still blesses everyone. He sends the rains on the righteous and unrighteous. No one really deserves it but God is graceful and gives.

    Now God gives us everything. Yet there is a time when God will judge every man. All men and women will not have any defense for their sins. Understand that sin was overcome by Jesus on the cross. After judgement God will take his people and remove the whole lot to the New Heavens and New Earth. The criteria to be God’s people is to be in Christ.

    The rest will be left out. For an metaphor look at it this way. God provides us with oxygen because He loves us. We don’t deserve the oxygen but He gives it anyway. One day He will remove the oxygen. It is His right He can do whatever He wants with it. Now substitute Love in the place of oxygen.

    This is why Hell is described as utter darkness with the weeping and nashing of teeth. It is also Taturus where there is a burning fire. Those in Hell will burn with fury they did not do the right thing in deciding to follow Jesus. It is more like God’s withdrawing then God sticking it to them.
    Never forget God’s standards are very high.

    Note also the Bible teaches different degrees of punishment. The worst punished are those who knew God’s will and refused to do it.

    In regards to Lucifer beware for the devil himself transforms himself into an angel of light. Learn these things. Love is never manipulative, Love never lies (though it may omit things), Love is very different from power, Love, true Love, treats everyone with respect and kindness regardless of their situation, Love is willing to give and receive yet never keep a running score of favors, Love
    is something no one can master but the most ancient among us can’t come close to being it’s master, Love puts people in front of material things, Love concentrates on the group over the individual, Love would never oppress or take advantage of a person. Finally love is best exemplified in the humble person of Jesus Christ.

    Rick I would ask you to look at your life as a mason and make a sheet and check of some of the things you have observed.

    There are only two paths to go on.

    Oh and about worship. That is a very excellent question. Read the first five books of the Bible. Then concentrate on Leviticus. Some serious strange stuff is going down there. All this stuff on molds, skin condition and things to eat. New many years later we can scientifically see why God commanded people to do this. For example pig’s carry many parasites. Thus it was a good idea not to eat their flesh and call it unclean.

    God’s Word teaches us the best way to go. Follow Jesus’ commands we would live in a utopian society. Not a perfect one but a much much better one than we live in today.

    What is the difference in worship then when the football team goes out to play a game in the super bowl. Laser beams, explosions, people on their feet cheering and yelling, the big tv screen catching every move, the announcers yelling, cheer leaders kicking and dancing, the band playing and so forth.

    Is it wrong that I would embrace with jubilation the Creater who made the entire universe and Loved me so much that He sent His son Jesus to repair our broken relationship so we would be together again. Together in a wonderful world where there is no sickness, pain, nor death. A place where every tear will be wiped away.

    Love,

    John

  203. reuben said

    But so what?Will Jakes kill his son whatever he is? Even Jesus Christ lived with Judas Iscariot and Peter the who denies Him.God will come through for Jakes’ son.

    Love you T.D Jakes

  204. Reuben, what’s your feeling about the doctrine of the Trinity? Do you feel it is true?

  205. nina said

    EVERYONE has someone in their families that are battling with some vice. As a matter of fact, everyone has a vice. It might be trying to stop cursing or eating too much. Don’t be judgemental, pray for others that have these problems. If you look back into your life or even now, reviewing your problems, think of something serious you are having major problems with. Mine is forgiving others that hurt me verbally over and over again. God convicts me when I want to retaliate and I can’t. We all have problems.

    God bless everyone

  206. Job said

    nina:

    You are correct that all Christians battle sin. However, if you are not battling sin, then you are not a Christian. Do you agree? It honestly appears that a lot of professing Christians are professing falsely for they are making no effort to battle their sin. We should show grace and mercy on Christians that are struggling in their battle against sin, but we need to let the imposters know that if they do not cease submitting themselves to sin, the eternal judgment upon them will be greater than it will be against those that never professed to be Christians at all. God is not mocked, and the people out there perverting doctrine and speaking wickedly are going to find that out one day soon.

  207. JustCurious said

    Call me a cynic, but does anyone have proof, evidence or the name of the person who SAW “The young man…at a black gay club in Atlanta during the popular 2006 MegaFest” I need pictures or a confession. How can you judge someone until you know the truth.

    It sounds too gossipy to me

  208. Jim Hollinshead said

    Your judgement of TD Jakes is a sad commentary on your true spiritual condition. The evidence of your blindness of heart is sadly glaring.

    The Lord Jesus Christ said in John 17:3 “And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.”

    If God had revealed Himself to your heart in the person of Jesus Christ you would be still and hold your peace and walk in genuine humility. Sadly, THE TRUTH, The Living Word of God, The Lord Jesus Christ, has not taken up residence in your heart. If he had, you would be quick to hear and slow to speak and abounding in the Love of God and His Amazing Grace.

    “Wherefore he saith, Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light.” Ephesians 5:14

    This may not fit into your understanding of the nature of God but believe it or not, GOD LOVES EVERYBODY. It is HIS Nature. Don’t be found standing in the seat of the scoffer, friends…

    JCH

  209. God does NOT “love” everybody, He not only HATES sin, He HATES sinners that don’t repent too!

    Romans 9:13 (New American Standard Bible)

    13 Just as it is written, “JACOB I LOVED, BUT ESAU I HATED.”

    Is TD Jakes going gay christian friendly?

    The Sacrilege of T.D. Jakes.

  210. Faithful Trinitarian said

    IndependentConservative:
    I just wanted to comment that you are correct that God hates sin. But to suggest that God dosen’t love everyone is unBiblical.
    “For God so loved the world[i.e., humanity] that He gave His only beggotten son, that whomsoever believes on should not perish but have eternal life” Jn 3:16. The fact that he HATED Esau does not change this fact. In fact, in the Old Testament, when he said he “hated” Esau, this was not an emotional hate. Rather, it was a legal term such as in Duet 22:13 when a man wanted an annulment from his wife. In context then, what God was saying was that He was legally “disinheriting” Esau and was replacing him with Jacob because of his lack of faithfulness.

  211. Gayle said

    First of all, if you’re going to talk about sin, talk about all sins. I’m so tired of people magnifying certain sins and ignoring the other sins. ALL SIN IS ABOMINATION. Yes, homosexuality is a sin, but so is adultery, drunkenness and so many of our other every day behaviors. God hates all of it. Even divorce is a sin. God does not like divorce yet and still the divorce rate is high in the church world. Did you know that gossip is a sin? (Leviticus 19:16) God does not like gossip yet…. And still…. All of you all are gossiping about T.D. Jakes and his family issues. You are gossiping right now!!!!!! That is an abomination. God hates this. Jesus said he that is without sin, let him cast the first stone. (St. John 8:7) People of the world will make it to heaven before the so called “Christian church folks”.

  212. Job said

    Gayle:

    First of all, this is not gossiping because A) it is true and B) done for valid spiritual reasons. So that makes you a false accuser. What else makes you a false accuser? Claiming that I only talk about homosexuality. The truth is that I not only talk about all sins, but I myself denounce the sin of homophobia and of hypocritically pointing the finger at homosexuals. So, it appears that in your zeal to defend a demonstrably false preacher, oneness pentecostal heretic (who lies about it), promoter of the false prosperity/Word of Faith doctrines, and puppet of the new world order globalists T.D. Jakes, you yourself have sinned, not against me (for I am myself but a sinner) but against the holy and righteous God.

  213. journeytaker said

    Could you please point me to information regarding Youtube banning Ephesians511. I have heard of users accounts being closed and all of their videos exposing error being removed. John Hagee was reported to have done this in a USA Today article. He had all of the “negative” vids removed citing copyright infringement. Hmmmmm? I would like to see an article that actually addresses these false teachers use of this tactic to silence seekers and presenters of truth.

    I would also like to say that TD Jakes has made it perfectly clear he no longer regards the Bible as the final authority. His use of Freudian psychology is quite an affront to the sufficiency of Jesus Christ’s atonement on the cross. He has told us what he believes through his words and his affiliations. These speak volumes. If his son is a homosexual, I hope that he will repent and at least love his son enough to tell him the truth!

    Have you ever watched Mega Fest? He has more non christians than Christians as speakers! This last one featured Will Smith who is a swinger and Jada, his wife is the lead singer of a group called “wicked wisdom” look it up and you will be horrified at what you see. THese are the kinds of people that have the platform at his conferences.

    Be a Berean. Examine and look for yourself these false teachers words. Read your Bible and compare! YOU will see the lies and deceit very plainly!

    Those that think a site like this is wrong should read the writings of Paul. He named names, called Peter out for snubbing the gentiles etc. I may not agree totally with the doctrinal statements here, but I do see the error they are presenting. I respect their stand for the truth and their disdain for sin. Something that is lacking in the church today.

  214. journeytaker said

    Opps! I meant to say that I appreciate the error this site exposes. Not the error they are presenting! (as if they are promoting error)

  215. Jean said

    WHAT IN THE HECK DOES ALL THIS MUMBLE JUMBLE HAVE TO DO WITH GOD. YOU ARE ALL WRONG, GOD WANTS YOU TO LIVE YOUR LIFE THE BEST YOU CAN. HE WANTS YOU TO PATTERN YOUR LIFE AFTER JESUS AS CLOSELY AS YOU CAN, IF YOU ARE PRACTICING THAT FAITH.

    IT IS MORE IMPORTANT TO UP RIGHT THE WORLD THEN TO SIT IN JUDGMENT OF WHAT GOD WANTS. HOW DO ANY OF YOU KNOW WHAT GOD REALLY WANTS.

    HE IS FREE OF ANY SIN OR WRONG DOING CAST THE FIRST STONE.

  216. Jean, if we ever attempt to take TD Jakes’ life, or the life of anyone via stoning, please call the police. Nobody has cast any stones. Please stop trying to use scriptures that don’t apply.

    First you speak of God wanting us to pattern our lives after Jesus as closely as we can.

    YOU ARE ALL WRONG, GOD WANTS YOU TO LIVE YOUR LIFE THE BEST YOU CAN. HE WANTS YOU TO PATTERN YOUR LIFE AFTER JESUS AS CLOSELY AS YOU CAN, IF YOU ARE PRACTICING THAT FAITH.

    And then you ask how do any of us know what God really wants.

    HOW DO ANY OF YOU KNOW WHAT GOD REALLY WANTS.

    You’re hacking scripture and contradicting yourself.

    We know what God really wants, because God gave us a Bible to learn His Word from.

    But if you feel TD Jakes is doing what God has commanded of Christians and what God wants is for us to pattern our lives after Christ, please tell us, how many jets did Jesus ride? Or rather, how many colts did Jesus ride into a city?

    And by the way, if saying something critical is “casting stones”, you’ve casts stones at us. So you are no better.

  217. alex said

    At the end of the day,these are some of the main reasons JESUS had to die for us because even God knew we are a jacked up,confused,struggling people. So accept christ and pray your name is written in the lambs book of life because when it is all said and done were all GUILTY of something.If we as christians were on the right track we would not have all these different denominations and segregated churches(black&white).Yes holyghost filled christians got the nerve to be racist……

  218. Sue said

    Indenpendant Conservative, No parent is responsible for their adult children.
    You and I will stand before God alone.
    The old blame game is not biblical. I would think you would know better. You are way off base.

  219. matthew said

    why is it that whenever a christian leader becomes influential, successful or effective in his ministry calling, other ministers/christians start calling them “false prophets”

    they are hypocrites. they preach that god will “make you the head and not the tail, above and not beneath” we preach god will “bless the works of your hand” , we proclaim that “whatsoever you do will prosper”. In the book of acts, the early church was seeing thousands of people saved on a dally basis. we should expect christian leaders to be draw crowds…..but whenever we see that actually happen for one of us we call them false prophets!

    just because you may disagree with someones views and interpretation of the scriptures, doesnt make them a false prophet. i disagree with a lot of people about a lot of thing, including politics, race relations, justice, education etc, but we are all entitled to our own opinions. the people that i disagree with are often my closest friends. i dont speak negatively of them or call them “false prophets” just because we dont see eye to eye.

    by the way, do you even KNOW bishop Jakes. have you ever had a one on one conversation with him regarding his views about ANYTHING? we use that term “false prophet” too loosely, its becomeing watered down and passe and i honestly do not think we would know one if we met them. its just and inflammatory word that christians throw around whenever they are jealous of the success of another brothr or sister…while the REAL false prophets are having the time of thier lives.

  220. Brandon said

    It kills me when I see this stuff. You know, if people knew their word, they knew know that Bishop Jakes is most definitely a child of God who works under his anointing.

    A HOUSE DIVIDED AGAINST ITSELF CANNOT STAND.

    The people of Jesus day said he was foul, just like alot of people are saying Bishop Jakes is foul.

    I attend his church, and while I don’t agree with everything there, I know that HE PERSONALLY is used of God.

    I have seen droves of sinners come to Christ, EVERY WEEK and give their lives to Christ and begin to live as saints.

    I have seen the bishop put forth efforts for the needy and poor, he is SAVING LIVES in Kenya by bringing water.

    He helps the homeless, the needy, the poor, the orphan and the forgotten.

    I myself, have had my life affected by his ministry, and by the spirit of the Lord, to the point of even being slain in the spirit.

    So, I ask this question:

    WHAT COULD YOU BE DOING TO SAVE THE LOST?
    WHAT COULD YOU BE DOING TO HELP THE HOMELESS?
    WHAT COULD YOU BE DOING TO SPREAD THE KINGDOM?

    If Bishop is out of order, just pray the Lord would handle it and move on and GET TO WORK FOR THE KINGDOM INSTEAD OF BEING SOWERS OF DIVISION.

  221. Brandon,

    Jesus never said homosexuals will enter God’s Kingdom and His apostles let us know He’s against it, 1 Corinthians 6:9-10.

    But when TD Jakes is asked if homosexuality is a sin, he can’t speak as the true men of God we in the scriptures, The Sacrilege of T.D. Jakes.

    The apostles never claimed Christ denying Muslims will inherit the Kingdom of God, but TD Jakes thinks they might. See what is above and listen to the full interview yourself Brandon.

    And Brandon, that stuff called “slain in the spirit” is unbiblical.

  222. James said

    If the man doesn’t hold high regard for the Bible home will show it.

  223. Devon said

    Is Jakes really this bad?? This is very sad….I still have some of his video tapes here in my house…

    Man oh man….

  224. Angie said

    @ IC:

    I have a comment, regarding your statement in #190. If a person, especially a child doesn’t get the concept or meaning of anything, what is wrong with breaking it down another way, so that the person can get it. Didn’t the Father in the bible say that Israel is the apple of His eye (Zech.2:8). He used one of His creations to describe another creation whom He love very much. It doesn’t make the Israelites apples. However, if I misunderstood anything, please comment.

  225. Angie said

    If TD Jakes son was at a gay club in Atlanta, then that makes this mand of gawd look bad. I agree with comment #1 and not only that, remember the scripture when Eli, the priest turned his back on the sins of his three sons. Unlike Eli, Jakes appointed himself into a leadership position. Something to think about.

  226. Angie, I totally stand by my statement.

    God can of course use whatever comparisons He desires, but I don’t attempt to compare the triune nature of the creator with creations. I don’t break it down another way, not any more, now I try and keep it as we have in scripture and don’t add any personal comparisons based on earthly things. If someone is to know it, the Holy Spirit will guide them into the truth, no need for me to go trying to compare God to creations that never properly describe something not even scripture tries to use creations to describe, the Trinity. So I’ll keep it with what is in scripture and provide that. If the Lord wills, His Word will be understood.

    • a girl said

      pls stop this guy. you are a very stubborn and disorderly person, you might be saying the right thing but your approach is wrong. you dont have love in your heart, even jesus prayed for the people that killed him. did you read first corinthians 13, it says love does not seek its own. you always want to be right. even when you are right you can act wrong for peace to reign and if you were doing it the right way you would be winning souls to heaven not just stopping people from listening to td jakes. he is a child of god, loved by god and you have no business in his life.
      stop before god stops you, if you think this is how to do the work of god you are wrong.
      pls stop for your own good.
      and dont go defending yourself saying jesus was angry at the pharisees and chased out the temple money changers, thats our saviour, ur a man. try walking on water or commanding the seas. there is something wrong with you brother plss stop.

      • John Kaniecki said

        A girl,

        Hi hope you are well.

        While I cannot defend ever post on this site I am sorry that you cannot perceive a fake for what it is. T.D. Jakes and the whole crew at TBN have their hearts set on Mammon and not God.

        This is such a tragedy. There is a large segment of people who understand these frauds to be what they are. Unfortunately this segment views all of Christianity in the same sense and that is sad.

        Christ associated with lepers, prostitutes, tax collecters, fisherman among others. With whom did He get upset with, the Pharisees. Hypocrites, was Christ’s verdict.

        Next time T.D. Jakes writes another book you go run out and buy it so he can buy his two thousand dollar suits, live in a mansion and fly around in his private jet.

        I am sorry you are blind.

        Love,

        John

  227. RALPH said

    I JUST STUMBLED ON THIS WEBSITE AND I HAVE NEVER BEEN SO GRIEVED IN MY LIFE… IM ONLY 24 YEARS OLD AND DONT KNOW EVERYTHING BUT I DO KNOW THIS JESUS CAME TO THIS EARTH TO SAVE NO TO CONDEMN SO WHO ARE YOU TO DO THE SAME AT FIRST I THOUGHT HERE ARE PEOPLE WHO ARE TRYING TO SPREAD THE WORD ON SOME TROUBLING ISSUES BUT THE MORE I READ THE MORE IT SEEMS LIKE A WITCH HUNT AND WHATS WORSE IS THAT READERS JUST AS IGNORANT (NO OFFENSE) HOP ON THE BAND WAGON OF TE UNKNOW PEOPLE USUALLY DONT LIKE WHAT THEY DONT UNDERSTAND AND THATS NATURE BUT WHO ARE YOU TO CALL SOMEONE A FALSE TEACHER WHO ARE YOU TO SAY SOMEONE IS GOING TO HELL A MAN IF THAT NOT WHAT JESUS WAS ABOUT THEN WHO ARE YOU… IF A MAN WASNT ALLOWED TO PREACH BECAUSE OF THE SINS OF HIS CHILDREN THERE WOULD BE NO PREACHERS BUT NOT JUST THAT THIS SITE IS NOTHINHG MORE THEN A GOSSIP COLUMN AND I GUESS THE ONLY GOOD PART ABOUT THAT IS EVERYONE IS ENTITLED TO THE RIGHT OF FREE SPEACH BUT DONT LET JESUS COME BACK AND YOU FOUND PUBLICLY BAD MOUTHING MEN AND WOMEN OF GOD… FINALLY I WANT YOU ALL TO TAKE A GOOD LOOK AT YOURSELF AND ASK IS THIS HOW GOD WANTS ME SPENDING MY TIME BECAUSE SIN IS SIN AND YOU ARE GOING TO HELD ACCOUNTABLE FOR EVERY IDOL WORD SPOKEN… ITS NOT RIGHT AND I PRAY FOR YOUR SAKE THAT GOD OPEN UP THE HEART OF YOUR UNDERSTANDING BEFORE IT IS TOO LATE.

  228. THANKS RALPH FOR YOUR INPUT.

  229. Asanda said

    My heart is in pain to see so much hate amongst us.I have read all the post myself and i only see the DEVIL using what we know against us.There is nothing from God in all your negetive posts.Whatever you think of TD Jakes should not matter to those chosen by God bcs they know that what God expects of them. The time u used to attach him is time u could have used to strengthen us young people who’s hearts are longing to know CHRIST NOT ABOUT TD JAKES AND FAMILY.

    GOSSIP is the devil’s weapon i dont know why it is still in you if u are realy a child of God…and to those who were angered by this i say;THINGS LIKE THIS SHOULD NOT MOVES/ANGER YOU FOR OUR FIGHT IS NOT ONLY AGAINST FLESH AND BLOOD BUT AGAINST RULERS OF THIS DARK WORLD AND AGAINST AUTHORITIES….

    Stay blessed and repent!

  230. Woman Of God said

    JAKES SON IS NO LONGER A CHILD IN HIS HOME, JAKES SON MADE HIS OWE CHOICE, AND YES IT WILL EFFECT FOLLOWERS “THE BODY OF CHRIST” OF ALL CHURCH MEMBERS, AND THIS UN-CLEAN SPIRIT IS ALIVE AND DOING WELL IN ALL WALKS OF LIFE…LET US NOT BLAME ONE ANOTHER FOR THE ACTS OF THIS UN-CLEAN SPIRIT.

    PASTOR JAKES IS ON THE BATTLEFIELD FIGHTING A GOOD FIGHT OF FAITH…….LET US NOT POINT A FINGER INTO HIS HOUSE…………LET US ALL TAKE A LOOK INTO OUR OWN HOUSEHOLD, AND GET OUT THE MOP AND BROOM, AND START CLEANING UP.

    PRAY FOR THIS MAN OF GOD……HE’S DOING A GOOD WORK, AND HE WON’T COME DOWN.

  231. Deborah said

    I agree with comments 227 and 229. Judgement, hatred, lack of love and compassion is why this world is the way it is. I accidentally came across this site and I am appalled at what “good christians” sound like. Please lord never let me be like these people. I volunteer heavily with two aids organizations and have met some of the most beautiful accepting and kind people. Maybe all of you should practice it sometime. One thing I will agree with all of you is god will do the judging on judgement day and that means all of you will have to answer for yourselves. I will pray for each of you to learn love, compassion, understanding and most important you have no right to judge anyone but yourselves.

  232. One of Jakes’ sons has been arrested on the charge of trying to sex up some undercover cops in a public park!

    Some articles say the kid is his step son and some others say the kid is his “son”. What’s the deal with that? Are they his biological kids or kids his wife had before he married her?

    Jakes’ Step-Son Charged With Indecent Exposure

    Son of Bishop T.D. Jakes accused of indecent exposure

  233. Leta Calvert said

    T.D. Jakes son is a grown man and the bible says work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. We as Christians must be vey careful how we use the Word of God to judge people. I am a child of God and I recognize that in the old testament and the new testament that homosexuality is an abomination. On the flip side of that God said he would have mercy and compassion on whom he will. Many if not most people that struggle with homesexuality were violated or abused in some kind of way. We must learn to love them and pray for them. In the end God will be the judge. There is a reason God said to bind mercy and truth around your neck. We as christians tend to use the truth to ring peoples’ neck. The best thing that could have happened to Bishop Jakes son is that he be exposed and watch God bring deliverance through the Potters house on this very sticky subject. My prayer continues to be that the Lord give the body of Christ wisdom on how to minister to those that struggle with their sexual identity. It’s much deeper then telling them it’s an abomination.

  234. Well like father like son, sowing and reaping. He if Jakes repented of his past homosexual ways, he still sowed a bad seed.
    Just like God forgave David, yet the sword never left his house because of his past sin.

  235. Yvette said

    you know people just need to mind their own business. for all of the so called children of God, most of the sin in this world is committed by the folk that go to church. They will point their dirty fingers at all of the “sinners” but who knows what may be going on in their home behind closed doors. pray for the family, don’t kick them down because for all you know one of your children may be gay (you just don’t know it). While you all are judging just remember that Jesus also said “he who is without sin cast the first stone”. I grew up in the church and believe me from my experience with “christians of all faiths”. They don’t behave much different from the people in the world. From the Leaders to the lay members.

  236. tw said

    None of you folks here can call yourselves GOD. Leave the judging to him. Lead your owns lives as you believe. Leave other folks alone. If you don’t like TD Jakes, don’t attend his church. Bunch of hypocrites! Shut up and mind your own business.

  237. Please study the Word of God and not reley on your own belief system. The Word gives those who are joined to the body authority to do so.

    1 Corinthians 5:12

    For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Do you not judge those who are within the church?

    5:12 For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? It was not Paul’s business, nor ours, to judge those without; (sinners unsaved).

    Do not ye judge them that are within? (The authority of the church is over those who have been united with it (believers). It (we) can judge them.

  238. u.white said

    What do you mean TD JAKES CANNOT RUN HIS HOUSE???? The Bishop’s kids are ALL grown men and women, except for one minor child….Whatever his son does with his life is on his own watch, not the Bishop’s.

    Deuteronomy 24:16:
    “Fathers shall not be put to death because of their children, nor shall children be put to death because of their fathers. Each one shall be put to death for his own sin.

  239. Cindy said

    This is my first time on this site and I can’t believe you all have nothing better to do with your time than talk about Bishop Jakes. And independent conservative you are nothing but a big trouble maker. You post links so others will go read the newest gossip. I wonder if the camera was on your life 24 hours a day every day of your life,,, just what would we see that you would not want the world to know. Have you always been free from SIN?? No, as we were all born into sin. But, if anyone repents of their sin, I don’t care what they have done, GOD forgives. I am a white woman and I am a member Bishop’s church. He is a man of GOD and who are you to judge? Why do you spend so much time on here bad mouthing someone you don’t even know? It’s called gossip and that is SIN. If you have children I’m sure none of them are without sin. Do you know that Jesus came and died for SINNERS, if it weren’t for sin in the world HE would not have been a sacrifice. And He died for ALL SINNERS, including Bishop’s son, and yes He even died for you. The young man needs help, forgiveness and love. What father,, earthly or HEAVENLY would not do this all for their child? I pray our HEAVENLY Father will forgive you for stirring up this gossip. And I might even ask if He could give you something better to do with your time. If you put all the time and energy you use up on here causing trouble, toward saying good things about others what a better world this would be. Now I’m going to sleep because I have to get up and go to church tomorrow. Bishop always has a great teaching on the Word of GOD. Oh, you can go to tdjakes.org and watch it live. If you would start your day off with the Word you wouldn’t be so crabby. Bless you and have a nice day.

  240. Aimee said

    Lest we forget: the bible is very clear that we shouldn’t judge others. That’s for the Lord to do. Deal with your own issues and stop behaving like fake christians.

  241. MIke said

    let he who is without sin cast the first stone! if everytime i failed, You mighty God, struck me down, i would have never seen the age of 12! what if ur business was printed for every “Christian” to see and judgeeverytime u failed or stumbled on a rock? i really doubt u would say anything now. the Bishop im sure cares two peanuts and a walnut what any of you think. he knows his faith lies on the One who created him and who makes all thing new. that if you sins were as red as blood, He will make them as white as snow. i seriously wonder, look at your gown, what color might it be? its so funny how we can see past that HUGE log in our eye! man, God bless u bishop. keep fighting the good fight, and as surly as the Lord lives, your sons will remain in victory. not because we said, not because everyone was on your side, but cuz God is on your side! if u have no sin, mistake or troubles, if ur out of your sins,(and i dont mean sin, sorry and back again)….we call that a vicious circle! i mean out of sin to where u can sit at Gods right hand side right now, than say what you want if u dare to offend god and fall from that position! if not, put ur mouths in to good use and declare freedom and blessings into ur home as well as ur brothers! thanks my CHRISTIAN brothers and sisters!
    -youth pastor Mike

  242. Leta Calvert said

    Brother I disagree with you as far as how you judge Dr. Phil 1st of all. How many families have you helped face their demons? Maybe you need to tune in to Bishop Jakes service on sunday at 830 and ll30 because he does not condone homosexuality. Where so many christian finatics miss it pertaining to homosexuality is discovering what led them to that life style. Why argue over whether they were born gay. The fact of the matter is that they need deliverance just like the hetersexual that is living in sin. What about all the young men that were molested in the catholic church and trusted the men of God and was molested in the process and became gay. Have you ever been violated? There are those that suffered abuse that turned to homosexuality also? God is the only one that knows the heart of every humanbeing that He created. While you got your Jesus zapper on others you better make sure you make it in Mr Self Righeous One. By the way God isnt shocked when it comes to homosexuality thats is why he said there is nothing new under the sun.

  243. Lana said

    I find it funny that you all can spend your time pointing out T.D Jakes childrens sins….spend a little more time reading the passages about pulling the plank out of your own eye before pointing the speck out in your brothers. We all have sin in our lives and it does not come on scales. Why are you focusing on someone else? Look at your own life and deal with God about your own sins. I am embarrassed to be a christian when I read your blogs…who would EVER want to come to our religion after reading how harshly YOU judge everybody? Where is the love? All I read is judgments and finger pointing.

  244. Let me caution my fellow brethren to be very careful how you deal with this matter putting in mind it can happen to anyone.Bishop Td jakes has done no sin at all to deserve his credibility to be questioned.Jakes is a father and he has to love his son no matter what!.you forget that love covers a multitude of sins and Jakes should never forsake or kick him out because he his a gay.God created us and gave us instructions at the garden of eden what happened?we sinned.christians can’t we learn that we were restored by love.How will this son come to God if Jakes does not stand with him.Remember the story of the prodigal son.Life is a matter of love and God is love.
    To jakes let him know that we were born being who we are and let him focus on christ the author and the finisher of our faith stand firm brother your faith is being tested you will come out more annoitted than before.Its not easy but but you will come out of this.How do you minister to people with such cases if you don’t know its pain.Match on brother your son will come to the proper line once you overcome for when children are taught the Godly ways even if the go astray when they grow up to maturity they will come back that means God was preparing us for this we are not an exemption of what the devil is doing but we will walk on serpets and scorpions and they will not hurt us.Love your son than never before and be wise leave for others to talk for they don’t know or they are ignorant.Thats their business do yours after all did they call you????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????.

  245. Israel Cox said

    I am not supprised at the reactions of the public towards my brother in Christ because of the decisions his children or his son makes. We are parents but we are by no means their conscience. we cannot make our kids become righteous, they are the ones that choose that life for themselves. Just as they will choose the life they will lead in the future. I have kids of my own and I know that after you as a parent do all that you are to do and your kids grow up into independant thinkers, thats when they determine what they are and are not going to do behind your back. So, please dont be hard on any parent for what their child does after a certain age. I think thats the reason why God stopped making parents responsible for the sins of their kids and vice versa. There is no way I as your parent can control what you do after you leave this nest or while outside of it. Try to always remember, one day you too may be in the same position as T.D.Jakes and how would you like for people to treat you? What is worthy of God, that is how you would want to be treated or spoken about.

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