33 Responses to “The Testimony Of A Woman Ripped Off By John Hagee’s Prosperity Doctrine!”
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September 8, 2007 at 1:21 am
Tim Kurek said
I appreciate your blog, but I would encourage you to preach the truth in love. I don’t care for any TBN preachers or for the “prosperity gospel”, but to tear at the body is dangerous. Good blog though.
http://uriahministries.wordpress.com
tim kurek-
November 16, 2009 at 5:26 pm
peaches said
i agree with you there
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September 8, 2007 at 1:38 am
healtheland said
Tim Kurek: If a person is a false preacher, he is not a member of the Body of Christ but rather a ravening wolf sent to deceive and scatter the sheep and to keep them from finding and walking in the Truth. And it is also our duty as Christians to warn, encourage, and keep other Christians from being deceived by false preachers and their devil’s doctrines. I heard John Hagee say on live worldwide television that Jesus Christ was killed by Rome for His political beliefs. So trust me, I am in no danger for contending against the lies of that heretic; the only danger is in knowing the truth about this man and not warning people of it. We all have to stand before God in judgment one day, and God will ask us whether we helped lead people into His Truth and away from the lies of the enemy that false preachers give and represent. It is all a part of loving God with all of our heart, soul, and strength and then loving our neighbor!
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September 10, 2007 at 4:43 pm
Dustin Finamore said
What church are you guys going to that does not talk about tithes? I pay tithes because I love to do so, but I have never been to a church that does not preach about giving tithes. I thought all churchs teach this? What church does not??? Thanks for any responses.
Dustin
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September 12, 2009 at 6:39 am
Kim said
Thank you Dustin for your thoughts. Same as you every church that I have attended have preached to tithe. I also tithe because I love to do so. But it has taken me many years to learn this. It is all about your relationship with God not a church. I love the Bible and that is where my inspiration comes from. You can listen to anyone on the pulpit but if you yourself are not reading and praying and seeking God with your own heart then tithing does not mean anything.It is the attitude in which you give.
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September 12, 2009 at 7:16 pm
Christine (Pastor's Wife) said
Tithes in the Old Testament were only given on agriculture. Believe it or not the only reference of giving actual money was done as an offering. And this seems to carry over into the New Testament. I challenge anyone to find even one occasion in the New Testament which refers to the New Church of Jesus paying tithes. As Christians we should give offerings, if we’ve got it … And as Pastors those offerings received should be appropriated to the actual NEEDS of the People and Church. A Pastor has never, ever, got a right to get rich off of the backs of the people, ever … period. The Apostle Paul held down a job so as to not burden the Churches with his financial needs. Don’t misunderstand me, I don’t think that a paid full time Pastor is wrong. However, when I say paid, I am referring to a reasonable salary, NOT, unlimited access to the offering plate!
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October 21, 2009 at 5:15 pm
GeoM said
If you folks would read the Bible as much as you tear down the messengers, you may be able to understand better. A hippocrit is one who does one thing and preaches against it… not someone who sinned and asked for forgiveness and is no doing that sin anymore. Tithing was agricultural in the ‘olde’ days because we had a barter system and the ‘first fruits’ were the tithe.
If you could see the changes being made in the lives of people who attend that church, you would realize how powerfully the message comes across. People who go to the services and do what the book says, become prosperous and live blessed lives. I have seen healings in people, marriages, and families. Pastor Hagee used to give checks to women in the old church as support for their families when they were struggling because their husbands left them.
He organized a collection for fill a ship which was returning to South America empty so it could carry beans and rice and other items to help those folks who were devastated by mudslides.
It is east to sit in your easy chair and criticize anyone who is doing good things. He may even makes mistakes from time to time… like endorsing John McCain. It is so easy to take a sentence out of the flow of a sermon and twist it. Come sit in our church when it is filled with Jews and Christians celebrating Night To Honor Israel and see the bridges he has built over the last 28 years.
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September 10, 2007 at 7:46 pm
healtheland said
Dustin: Most churches teach tithing because the Roman Catholic Church adopted the position to support its clergy, and after the Reformation most Protestant denominations retained it. But reading the New Testament, or even reading the Old Testament with understanding, it is obvious that tithing is not required of the church. The only reason why tithing was done in the Old Testament was to support the Levitical priesthood, whom God did not give an inheritance (read Deuteronomy and Exodus). We have no Levitical priesthood in the New Testament, but instead are all the priesthood of the body of believers (the Catholic Church, incidentally, rejects that doctrine). There was no precedent for tithing in the New Testament, for all the believers gave freely out of the desire of their own heart … there is no legalism or compulsion or formula to giving under the new covenant. We can presume that Jewish Christians continued to give tithes and alms because Christianity was considered to be a sect of Judaism initially, but that was never imposed on Gentiles, because the Gentiles were never expected to support the Jewish institutions. Right now, we pay tithes to pay salaries of professional clergy and to pay rents and mortgages on land and facilities. In the early church all of the preachers were laymen (Paul, lest we forget, was a tentmaker to support himself) and the believers generally met in each other’s houses. Again, the requirement to meet in centralised buildings set aside for worship came with Constantine’s making Christianity the state religion and then “reforming” it, outlawing the previously existing worship system. You can still tithes if you want to, but that is just it … if you WANT to. Just know that you are under grace and not under law. If one has no desire to support the ministry of Jesus Christ, then you are not truly saved and lack the indwelling Holy Spirit that gives you compassion and love for the needs of your fellow man to hear the gospel and have their human needs met. That is the main problem with the tithing doctrine … so long as people do as they are told because they think that it is a church rule and they have to keep the church rules to stay in right standing with God and ultimately go to heaven, then there is never any true examination of the heart to see if one is really in the faith. This is especially true of these churches that now ask their members for their bank account numbers so that they can get their tithes by payroll deduction! And so – called pastors that tell their members that God will punish them and curse them for not tithing and will bless them if they “sow a seed”; well eitiher these people are deluded by these same doctrines or they are flat out evil. God only blesses and multiplies that which is given out of love. It is better to give 1% according to the new covenant than 50% according to the old and expecting something in return. There would be more legitimate preachers, more legitimate ministry, and more true work of the Lord being done if less were being given but more of it was given honestly, sincerely, and according to sound teaching and doctrine.
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September 12, 2007 at 2:44 pm
Vaughn Nelson said
II Cor. 9:6-7 “Every man as he purposeth in his heart let him give; …” When I give,I give to the Lord, not to man; consequently, even if I have been fleeced, or think I may have been, I lose nothing! If I give to man, he may definitely fool me, but I did so out of a pure heart and God will know that…I lose nothing. I grieve because I wasn’t more astute in my caution to detect a “false prophet or teacher,” but there are plenty out there. Always give where you have the greatest assurance that it is truly of God. Then, don’t go where you’re liable to be a “Child” tossed to and fro… St Von
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September 28, 2007 at 12:59 am
G W Day said
Why not tithe? The meeting place where you get together to worship has to pay electricity, maybe a mortgage on the building? Why is it that there is a problem? Nothing is free. The message is free but everything else has a price tag. The vendors that do business with the church don’t provide services or products for free.
I have known Christians who spend money on everything else, but balk at contributing to the church. Some of them belong to “secret societies” and pay whatever they demand willingly.
It appears that Christians don’t have a problem spending money, just when it comes to Church and missions.
If you don’t want to give, then don’t…but stop trying to justify not giving. It’s your money. And as far as II Cor. 9:6-7: What if a person purposeth in his heart to give more than ten percent? Giving is an expression of love and appreciation toward God for so great salvation. Giving is not limited to money, but it definitely is one expression of giving. A person should be led by the Spirit when it comes to giving, if they desire to give.
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September 28, 2007 at 8:01 am
healtheland said
G W D: “Why not tithe?” You answered your own question with “A person should be led by the Spirit when it comes to giving, if they desire to give.” A person who does not have a generous heart when it comes to giving to support fellowship and the legitimate work of the Lord is not truly saved. The problem with the church system today is that they not only have gotten accustomed to but even rely on the financial support of people whose names are on the church rolls but are unsaved, and tithing is one of the ways that they do it.
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September 28, 2007 at 2:55 pm
G W D said
True Healtheland. I have seen a lot of manipulation in the church as long as I can remember. I even saw church members stand on the corner with buckets begging for the church from anyone who passes by.
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November 6, 2007 at 12:56 pm
LOL said
By no means am I an expert on the subject, but here’s an interesting article I found on the subject that I found to be most insightful on the subject. Personally, I believe that there’s nothing wrong with Christians who CHOOSE to tithe (i.e. giving a set percentage of their income daily to the church/local fellowship they attend) or with churches who ENCOURAGE NOTE: Not meaning “COMMAND”, as if forced to do so and in a manner similar to a PROTECTION racket, where those who do not tithe are harassed, shunned, or wrongly attacked from those in the church as it has often happened in many)……I do so myself and I can honestly say that I’ve personally seen nothing but blessings come about from it in my own personal walk with the Lord and in various other ways that are often hard to explain…… Though many may disagree with it, I think that the article many worthwile things to consider when it comes to debating the practice of tithing and what relevance, if any, it may have for today….
Tithing and Generosity
Tithing (out of a can fall short of Christian generosity. The commandment to love the Lord our God wholeheartedly and our neighbors as ourselves is the ultimate standard by which we must measure and constantly reevaluate our giving. As Jesus said, “All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments” (Matthew 22:37-40). So even faithful tithing or other secondary gauges for giving can prove arbitrary or misleading, for the commandment to love God wholeheartedly can never be reduced to giving a mere percentage of our incomes.
Even in Old Testament times, 10 percent was not the “basic standard” or “starting point” for faithful giving. Biblical scholars point out that there were actually two or three different tithes required in the law, adding up to 23.3 percent of a family’s income (Craig Blomberg, Neither Poverty nor Riches, 46). In addition to these tithes, the law anticipated an array of other obligatory sacrifices and freewill offerings as well (e.g., Leviticus 1-7).
As we think about the tithe in the Old Testament, it is also important to remember that Old Testament Israel was an agricultural economy. While it is true that giving in Scripture is generally based upon one’s increase (cf. 2 Corinthians 9:11), the tithe was more specifically connected to the increase of the promised land and its annual harvest (Leviticus 27:30-32; Deuteronomy 14:22; 26:1-2).
Because the tithe came from the land, it seems the poor and destitute would not have been expected (or even able) to tithe unless they owned land from which to reap a harvest in the first place. Of course, this does not mean that poor, landless people were not expected to give in other ways, since the law both commanded and anticipated a number of other offerings as well (Leviticus 1-7; cf. 2 Corinthians 8:1-5). However, it does suggest that Israelites who were not landowners were not required to give in the form of a tithe. In fact, landless day-laborers were typically among the “poor” who would have stood to gain from the portion of the tithe used for community meals and shared with the needy (Deuteronomy 14:26, 28; 26:10-13).
This brings us to the question of how the tithes were actually used. Numbers 18:8-32 explains that the tithes were given to the Levites, who had no inheritance in the land. In turn, the Levites would give a tenth of the tithe to the priests, who also were commanded to tithe from what had been given to them (Numbers 18:26-28). This shows us that “even ‘full-time religious workers’ were subject to the laws of tithing” (Blomberg, 46).
In Deuteronomy 14:22-29, a tithe of crops and livestock was to be shared in celebration with one’s family and the community—especially the Levites. “Every third year however, the tithes would go to the local storehouses so that they could be distributed not just to the Levites but also to other poor and marginalized people: ‘the aliens, the fatherless and the widows’ (Deuteronomy 14:28-29)” (Blomberg, 46). Thus, the tithes were used for three main purposes:
to support the full-time religious workers of the day,
to provide a meal for community celebration and religious fellowship and
to provide for the needs of the poor.
How can we apply what we have learned about the tithe in Old Testament?In general, there seem to be three main points to remember. First, as we attempt to understand the contemporary significance of the tithe, we should resist the impulse to “quantify” the greatest commandment. Regardless of whether we are rich or poor, gainfully employed or buried in debt, the command to love God without reservation is the ultimate standard that should gauge our giving. Faithful tithing does not free us to use the other 90 percent of our incomes as we please, for God’s standard of generosity cannot be reduced to 10 percent. As Jesus said:
Woe to you Pharisees, because you give God a tenth of your mint, rue and all other kinds of garden herbs, but you neglect justice and the love of God. You should have practiced the latter without leaving the former undone. (Luke 11:42; cf. Matthew 23:23)
Second, the tithe does not necessarily apply to everyone in the same way. For example, the fact that landless Israelites would not have tithed is instructive for us today. Pastors and teachers should exercise caution when they preach and teach on “the tithe”.Especially when counseling those who are wealthy or poor, pastors should explain that the tithe only represents a fraction of what the Bible teaches about giving. Accordingly, faithful tithing can lead wealthy Christians (which includes almost all Americans) into a false sense of self-righteousness if they mistakenly think of the tithe as a “one-size-fits-all” gift that fulfills all of their financial responsibilities before God. On the other hand, failure to tithe can lead others who are truly poor into a false sense of guilt. In light of the potential for misunderstanding, pastors should not overemphasize the tithe or present it as the Bible’s inflexible standard for giving but, rather, should remind both rich and poor alike that the New Testament praises people who voluntarily express love for God and neighbor by giving sacrificially (Mark 12:33-44; Luke 21:1-4; 2 Corinthians 8:1-5).
We must all remember:
Whoever sows sparingly will also reap sparingly, and whoever sows generously will also reap generously. Each man should give what he has decided in his heart to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver.” (2 Corinthians 9:6-7)
Finally, the use of our tithes and offerings ought to reflect the three ways in which the tithes were used in ancient Israel. However, as we seek to reflect these ways of giving, we should remember: Just as the “first and greatest commandment” is the Bible’s ultimate standard for measuring our giving, the second greatest commandment to “love your neighbor as yourself” (Matthew 22:39) provides the ultimate standard for evaluating the various ways that we give. In other words, it is impossible to love God wholeheartedly unless we consider the needs of others to be as important as our own.
For example, just as the Israelites supported the priests and Levites, who had no other source of income, we must use our giving to support ministers of the gospel and other religious workers in the same way that we would want to be supported (1 Corinthians 9:13-14).
Similarly, just as one-tenth of every Israelite family’s crops and livestock was set aside for community celebration and fellowship, we must prioritize hospitality as an important way of giving, especially toward the poor and friendless (Luke 14:12-14).
Last but not least, we must love the poor as we love ourselves. Just as the Israelites’ tithes were distributed locally to poor and marginalized people, our giving should support our local church diaconate ministry as well as other mercy ministries and poor individuals. Whenever we encounter the needs of others, especially the poor, we must love them as we love ourselves, which means spending ourselves on them as Jesus spent himself on us (2 Corinthians 8:9; see especially Matthew 19:21; 25:31-46; Mark 10:21; Luke 12:33-34; 18:22-24; 19:8; Acts 2:42-47, 4: 34-37; Galatians 2:10; Hebrews 13:16; James 1:26-27, 1 John 3:16-18).
Again, what I’ve offered is simply my opinion/understanding of what I’ve read in the Word thus far, and of course, seeing that I’m human, my understanding may be falliable…… but then again the same goes for everyone posting on this site thus far. As long as we’re all after truth and seeking to be people pleasing in the sight of the Lord, it’s all good….
I believe that the tithe still applies, but that doesn’t mean that I believe it applies to us in the same way that it did in the Old Testament; The idea/principle of the tithe is still present in the New Testament (Matthew 23:23), but it is never explicitly applied to believers. Instead, almost all Christians are called to more extravagant freewill giving in response to the gospel of the Lord Jesus, based on faith in God as provider (2 Corinthians 9:6-10)….and I personally believe that tithing is only the starting blocks for a much more extravagant New Testament SACRIFICAL GENEROUSITY….the real thing that ALL OF US SHOULD BE AIMING FOR. The tithe was never the standard of Old Testament generosity, nor is it the standard of Christian generosity today.
Tithing may be a helpful guideline as we strive to develop a lifestyle of even greater giving….and the practice of giving a set percentage of one’s income in order to develop a greater disciplince of sacrifical giving in the future and “excell in the grace of giving” is something that I personally believe tithing can accomplish if one is lacking a disciplined lifestyle/practice of giving. It’s like Randy Alcorn says in his book “Materials/Possessions:
Everyone desires to ride a Bycycle at some point, but apart from training wheels, there never get there to the point where they’re disciplined enough to do it…..but once one begins to grow in their skill, the trainig wheels become uncessary….& likewise, it’s possible for one to see tithing as the training wheels of giving, where the giving of a tenth (or some set percentage of income) can serve to get one into the practice of giving more & more unitl it becomes uncessary ………but it was and is possible to tithe faithfully while neglecting true, biblical generosity (as Jesus pointed out to the Pharisees; see note on Matthew 23:23)……
First, a close look at the Old Testament and other ancient Jewish evidence shows that the tithe (as a mandatory gift equaling a tenth of one’s income) only applied to crops and animals from the promised land, not to all income in any time and place. Moreover, 10 percent was never “the standard,” for there were three tithes (two every year, one every three years) and many other offerings and gifts that were also part of Jewish life. In the Old Testament and today, God usually requires far more from his people than the 10 percent we typically assume.
For those who wonder “Who would have tithed in the Bible?”, apparently, only those who owned land in ancient Israel (the promised land itself) would have tithed an average of 23.3 percent of agricultural produce. There is no evdence that the tithe was ever applied to those who didn’t own land, or to those who did not live in Israel, with one exception: the Levites would give a tenth of the tithe to the priests, who also were commanded to tithe from what had been given to them (Numbers 18:26-28). This shows us that “even full time religious workers were subject to the laws of tithing”. However, Israelites who had become poor and lost their land or those who had moved to cities and engaged in non-agricultural trades almost certainly would have been exempt from tithe under Old Testament law. This casts considerable doubt on the applicability of a “10 percent” tithe for all Christians today…….and again, Instead of settling for a hard-and-fast legal requirement of 10 percent, we should instead pay careful attention to the New Testament’s radical teaching on generosity.
For those wondering “Who would have been exempt from the tithe in the Bible?”, the reality is that those who did not own land in Israel, the promised land itself. In the Old Testament and in early Jewish literature, tithe was not applied to all but only to landowners in Israel, who tithed off the increase of the land, i.e., what God’s promised land produced for them. Accordingly, there is no record of tithing from servants and other non-landowners, widows, sojourners and others in the land since these all received from others. (When the Levites and priests tithe from their share, God promises that he will count to them as “the product of the winepress or the threshing floor,” Numbers 18:27, 30, i.e., a tithe on the produce of the land.) Nor is there any evidence that tithe applied to all money/income, such as artisans in the cities or those who lost their land and became day laborers. This is why the Pharisees are said to tithe their herbs in Matthew 23:23 and Luke 11:42; they only tithed off what they produced in the promised land, as the Old Testament law commanded. When Jesus tells them they should have tithed, the tithe is only affirmed for Pharisees, i.e., relatively successful landowners living under the Law, just as Jesus tells the leper who was healed to present himself to the priests for verification of his purity (again in obedience to the Law). Note that Jesus does not tell them they should have tithed on everything: he tells them they should pursue justice and mercy, loving their neighbor as themselves—a far weightier requirement. Thus, there is no evidence in the Bible that the tithe applied to every single person and to all forms of income. Efforts today to enforce the tithe as a blanket requirement on everything we receive (income, gifts, etc.) are therefore inappropriate, as is the requirement that even the poorest of the poor should tithe. Of course, since we live in an age of unprecedented prosperity, giving less than 10 percent will probably leave most American Christians far short of Jesus’ inflexible requirements: loving God with all we are and loving our neighbor as we love ourselves, in light of Jesus’ sacrificial love for us (see notes on 1 John )
For those who ask “Didn’t Jesus affirm that Christians should tithe?”, the reality is “NO”…..in fact, Jesus expected much MORE from his followers. His command to love others as we love ourselves and as he loved us (John 13:44) is a far higher standard than the tithe.
It is interesting to note that none of the four passages in the New Testament where the tithe is mentioned requires Christians to tithe. Nor do these same passages expect Christians to stop at tithing. Luke 11:42 and Matthew 23:23 recall Jesus’ condemnation of faithful tithers for failing to do justice and mercy; Jesus tells them they should indeed tithe, but he also would have told them that they should indeed circumcise their sons, sacrifice in the temple, participate in Jewish festivals and Sabbath observance, and other such Law-keeping practices no longer mandated for Christians (see, for example, Luke 5:12-14).
Here and in Luke 18:12 (where the Pharisee goes above and beyond tithing on fruit of the land to “everything”; in the same verse he goes above and beyond on fasting by doing more than was required), our attitude and kingdom agenda of justice and mercy are more important than tithing according to Old Testament laws.
Finally, Hebrews 7:4-10 does not advocate that Christians should tithe but specifically says it was something done by Jewish people for Levitical priests on the basis of law; the writer then uses Abraham’s tithe to Melchizedek as allegorical proof of Melchizedek’s superiority to Levitical priests. Instead of settling for 10 percent, we should note the command to give generously and radically, just as Jesus gave to us: loving God with all he had and loving his neighbor—even his enemies—as himself, just as Jesus did (Matthew 22:37-40; 2 Corinthians 8:9; 1 John 3:16-19). John the Baptist raises the standard of giving to 50 percent (Luke 3:11), and Jesus exhorts us to give 100 percent (Luke 21:1-4).
So the scarce mention of the tithe in the New Testament is evidence not that God expects less of us today, but that far more is possible. The tithe is still a helpful guideline insofar as it reminds us to give proportionally to the Lord as he blesses us, since he owns it all anyway. But by New Testament standards, settling for 10 percent can be a recipe for condemnation from Jesus if we are neglected true generosity, just as it was for the tithing Pharisees (Matthew 23:23).
For those wondering “If I am not required to tithe, am I free to give whatever I want?”…….and believe “Yes”, but this doesn’t mean we give whatever we wish, no questions asked. The apostle Paul did say, “Each one should give what he has decided in his heart to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver” (2 Corinthians 9:7). But this begs the question, “How and why should I want to give?” Paul answers this for us in the surrounding passage: He presses the Corinthians to give by talking about the giving of others like the Macedonians, who gave generously with great joy despite their own poverty and suffering (2 Corinthians 8:1-5). He then lays down his aces: “You know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, who for our sakes became poor so that we by his poverty might become rich” (2 Corinthians 8:9). We are to be inspired, says Paul, by Jesus’ own sacrificial example, which we are commanded to follow (Matthew 16:21-28; 1 John 3:16-18).
He then argues that we who have been given much should give generously since this was God’s design (2 Corinthians 8:14). Moreover, the call to generosity is one of the chief ways our “righteousness endures forever” (2 Corinthians 9:9, quoting Psalm 112:9), and God can never be out-given, for he will ensure we reap what we sow (2 Corinthians 9:8). Above all, we can produce praise for our Lord as the world sees his goodness through his people, as we are “made rich in every way so that you can be generous on every occasion” (2 Corinthians 9:11). So the question is not just how much we want to give, but how much we are guided and inspired to give based on the example of Jesus and others, and God’s promises that our giving always will be to our benefit and his glory.
It must be said that people often say “The Bible says that each man should give what he has decided in his own heart to give. So I am free to give as much or as little as I choose, even not at all.”, ….buut while It is true that the apostle Paul says, “Each man should give what he has decided in his heart to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion” (2 Corinthians 9:7)., it does not mean that the apostle is giving us liberty to be as selfish or as stingy as we like. Curiously, this verse is situated in the middle of a passage urging Christians to give generously (vv 6-15). How can this be? Paul’s point is not to give license for selfishness, but to cultivate a love of generosity within his listeners. He does not want to “hold their hands” through the giving process. Rather, he wants them to feel free, creative and excited to give far beyond the ten percent benchmark. Because Jesus has accomplished our redemption and the age of the Spirit has come, Paul’s logic goes, appealing to the tithe laws is unnecessary. Yes, this is a sort of freedom unfamiliar to the Old Testament Jews. But it is a freedom to excel in good deeds, not a freedom to sin.
For those who ask “If I choose to tithe, does God expect more than a tithe from me?”, I believe that For most Christians the answer is a resounding “yes.” The Old Testament sets forth a system of tithes (10 percent offerings). For this reason, many Christians conclude that by giving 10 percent, they fulfill God’s requirement and are absolved of further responsibility. But interestingly, the tithe is mentioned only rarely in the New Testament, not because God expects less from the majority of us, but because far more is possible, particularly given the fact that the Old Testament actually speaks of three tithes totaling 23.3 percent of agricultural income. Because Jesus has accomplished our redemption and the age of the Spirit has come, appealing to the tithe laws is trivial. The standard of giving in the New Testament is in many ways much more radical, rooted in the command to love God with all we are and love our neighbor as ourselves (Matthew 22:34-40; see also 1 John 3:16-18). John the Baptist raises the bar to 50 percent (Luke 3:11), the Lord Jesus 100 percent (Luke 21:1-4), and the apostle Paul “whatever a man purposes in his heart to give” (2 Corinthians 9:7) in light of the truth that God gives us wealth to share with others. “At the present time your plenty will supply what they need, so that in turn their plenty will supply what you need. Then there will be equality” (2 Corinthians 8:14). New Testament believers have more of revelation and of the Holy Spirit than the Old Testament believers did, so God reasonably envisions greater things from us. Those who choose to tithe should think of it as the “training wheels” for a career of ever-growing Christian giving.
For those wondering “If I choose to tithe, what are some healthy ways to use the tithe? , “In general, we need to trust and support our church leaders, since this is largely their domain. For those in church leadership, there may be temptation first to build a budget based on our perceived needs and then to try to meet it with our tithe. But this may not be the best model. Our perceived needs likely will be influenced by ministry models, past experiences and what we see at other churches or organizations while the Bible’s priorities may not even play an important role. Therefore, leaders should diligently pay attention to Scripture’s priorities for our offerings and tithes, prayerfully keeping God’s word before us as we weigh our use of God’s money.
For those wondering “If I choose to tithe, what are some unhealthy ways to use the tithe?” one must realize that If we apply the tithe to ourselves or to others as a blanket requirement, as a “bare minimum” for every single person regardless of income or circumstance; or if we apply the tithe as a means of making God happy, we are going beyond what Scripture says. Similarly, if we think that tithing excuses us from giving anything else, we are probably in danger of being condemned, just like the Pharisees, who tithed but neglected “the weightier matters of the law” with their money by failing to practice justice and mercy and the love of God (Matthew 23:23; Luke 11:42). This is particularly true of those who have little income but live off a large net worth yet refuse to give from their net worth because the tithe “only applies to income,” not their net worth. If we as church leaders only allow people to tithe for church buildings and pastor salaries, we have missed the important emphasis on the poor, the sojourner and the widow, as well as the community-building aspects of the tithe through feasts with those from all classes and economic levels of society.
If the way in which we spend our tithes does not impact others (especially the very poor or those living off welfare or disability), we are missing the spirit of the Old Testament tithe, which was given to bless just such people.
Before considering whethers Christians should be encouraged to tithe today, I think we should look into some facts, judging from statistics at Barna Research Institute looking into the giving habits of 2001,
Compared to 1999m the mean per capita donation to churches dropped by 19% in 2000
Among born-again adults, there was a 44 percent rise in those who gave nothing
Comparing giving habits of those in their twenties, forties, and sixties was revealing: “Busters are substantially less likely (36%) than Boomers (58%), Builders (68%), or Seniors (68%) to give to a church in a given month.” Between 30 and 50percent of active church attentender gave nothing. And the 70% of Christians have no wills at the time they diem they don’t leave any money to their church or Christian Ministries. Many of the remaining 30% who do have wills desiginate no money to God’s Work.
All of us have to acknowledge that there has been a general DECLINE in how much Christians have been excited about/seeking to give in gradual years, and, though I can’t say the same about everyone else, this is alarming to me…..I’ve often heard many who’ve argued angrily that tithing is legalism (which I think is inaccurate…….for although It is certainly true that Jesus and Paul (along with the other biblical authors) condemn legalism very harshly (Matthew 23, Galatians 3), Legalism is trusting in one’s own good works to attain righteousness before God while Gospel, on the other hand, is trusting in God’s work to attain righteousness…and it is good to pursue righteousness provided you must do it in the right way–and which is why it seems to be unreasonable for one to claim tithing as a a form of legalism, when the reality is that Tithing can simply be an act of obedience to God…..and Done in the right way—trusting in God for strength—it is a beautiful act while Done in the wrong way—trusting in oneself for righteousness—it is an ugly and arrogant act….for Legalism lies not in the act of giving, but inside our own hearts.)
For those against tithing and claiming “It’s bondage” and we’ve been liberated into “grace giving” to give whatever we feel like and whenever, I think that we should pause seeing that the Isrealites’ triple tithes amounted to 23 percent of their income—in contrast to the average 2.5 percent of giving of American giving…and to me, it’s alarming to see statitcis that seem to give the impression that the LAW was about 10 times more effective than the “grace” we’ve been preaching. Even in using 10% as the measure, it seems that the Isrealites were four times more responsive to the LAW of Moses than the average AMERICAN is to the “Grace of Christ”
When we as NT Believers, living in a far more affluent society than ancient Israel, freely give only a FRACTION of what was required by the poorest OT believers, perhaps we need to reevaluate our concept of “grace giving”. And, when we consider that we have God’s indwelling Spirit of God and they didn’t, the contrast becomes even more glaring….AND ADD TO THAT HOW EVEN THE GIVING THAT MANY AMERICAN CHRISTIANS ARE INTO DOESN’T EVEN COMPARE TO THE VOLUNTARY GIVING THAT TOOK PLACE IN THE OT BY MANY outside of tithing and how many were caught up into it………God’s expectation that his people give substantially never changed in the NT.
The pro-grace or anti-legalism trump card rings hollow when it attempts to normalize wealthy Christians giving less than the poorest Israelite, and while appearing to take the theological high ground, it often seemst to be effectively saying that THE POWER OF NT GRACE IS LESS THAN THAT OF LAW……such a view is an insult to the saving and empowering work of Christ.
Honestly, we all tend to naturally embrace arguments that serve our pre-conceived self interests, and I think that it may behoove many of us against tithing to examine our hearts to discover whether when we say “Tithing is not for today” or “We should be grace givers” that we are not using grace as a license to sin or cluth tighter to material wealth, especially in light of how the NT clearly demostrates that Christians are called upon to be more sacrifical and generous, not less that those in the OT.
If we can learn to give without tithing, cool. but the giving track record of American Christians clearly indicates we have not learned to give….that, in fact, we’ve learned not to give….and though some fine Bible teachers preach against encouraging tithing,….though they themselves may be strong givers, I don’t think they may realize the effects of their words on those who have no concept of disciiplined giving. Trust me, I’ll listen to any Christian who says “TITHING ISN’T MEANT FOR TODAY”—provided that they give REGUARLY themselves and that their giving exceeds the tithe. But, honestly, there often seems to be a hidden agenda behind the protest….at best, innocent deception on the issue of Money and Stewardship.
If we’re to not support tithing, we need to make sure that we get accross the fact that the GOD HAS NOT LOWERED HIS STANDARDS OF GIVING……and that we must learn to become SACRIFICAL GIVERS TO THE LORD’S WORK.
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November 6, 2007 at 12:58 pm
LOL said
dd
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November 6, 2007 at 12:59 pm
LOL said
By no means am I an expert on the subject, but here’s an interesting article I found on the subject that I found to be most insightful on the subject. Personally, I believe that there’s nothing wrong with Christians who CHOOSE to tithe (i.e. giving a set percentage of their income daily to the church/local fellowship they attend) or with churches who ENCOURAGE NOTE: Not meaning “COMMAND”, as if forced to do so and in a manner similar to a PROTECTION racket, where those who do not tithe are harassed, shunned, or wrongly attacked from those in the church as it has often happened in many)……I do so myself and I can honestly say that I’ve personally seen nothing but blessings come about from it in my own personal walk with the Lord and in various other ways that are often hard to explain…… Though many may disagree with it, I think that the article many worthwile things to consider when it comes to debating the practice of tithing and what relevance, if any, it may have for today….
Tithing and Generosity
Tithing (out of a can fall short of Christian generosity. The commandment to love the Lord our God wholeheartedly and our neighbors as ourselves is the ultimate standard by which we must measure and constantly reevaluate our giving. As Jesus said, “All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments” (Matthew 22:37-40). So even faithful tithing or other secondary gauges for giving can prove arbitrary or misleading, for the commandment to love God wholeheartedly can never be reduced to giving a mere percentage of our incomes.
Even in Old Testament times, 10 percent was not the “basic standard” or “starting point” for faithful giving. Biblical scholars point out that there were actually two or three different tithes required in the law, adding up to 23.3 percent of a family’s income (Craig Blomberg, Neither Poverty nor Riches, 46). In addition to these tithes, the law anticipated an array of other obligatory sacrifices and freewill offerings as well (e.g., Leviticus 1-7).
As we think about the tithe in the Old Testament, it is also important to remember that Old Testament Israel was an agricultural economy. While it is true that giving in Scripture is generally based upon one’s increase (cf. 2 Corinthians 9:11), the tithe was more specifically connected to the increase of the promised land and its annual harvest (Leviticus 27:30-32; Deuteronomy 14:22; 26:1-2).
Because the tithe came from the land, it seems the poor and destitute would not have been expected (or even able) to tithe unless they owned land from which to reap a harvest in the first place. Of course, this does not mean that poor, landless people were not expected to give in other ways, since the law both commanded and anticipated a number of other offerings as well (Leviticus 1-7; cf. 2 Corinthians 8:1-5). However, it does suggest that Israelites who were not landowners were not required to give in the form of a tithe. In fact, landless day-laborers were typically among the “poor” who would have stood to gain from the portion of the tithe used for community meals and shared with the needy (Deuteronomy 14:26, 28; 26:10-13).
This brings us to the question of how the tithes were actually used. Numbers 18:8-32 explains that the tithes were given to the Levites, who had no inheritance in the land. In turn, the Levites would give a tenth of the tithe to the priests, who also were commanded to tithe from what had been given to them (Numbers 18:26-28). This shows us that “even ‘full-time religious workers’ were subject to the laws of tithing” (Blomberg, 46).
In Deuteronomy 14:22-29, a tithe of crops and livestock was to be shared in celebration with one’s family and the community—especially the Levites. “Every third year however, the tithes would go to the local storehouses so that they could be distributed not just to the Levites but also to other poor and marginalized people: ‘the aliens, the fatherless and the widows’ (Deuteronomy 14:28-29)” (Blomberg, 46). Thus, the tithes were used for three main purposes:
to support the full-time religious workers of the day,
to provide a meal for community celebration and religious fellowship and
to provide for the needs of the poor.
How can we apply what we have learned about the tithe in Old Testament?In general, there seem to be three main points to remember. First, as we attempt to understand the contemporary significance of the tithe, we should resist the impulse to “quantify” the greatest commandment. Regardless of whether we are rich or poor, gainfully employed or buried in debt, the command to love God without reservation is the ultimate standard that should gauge our giving. Faithful tithing does not free us to use the other 90 percent of our incomes as we please, for God’s standard of generosity cannot be reduced to 10 percent. As Jesus said:
Woe to you Pharisees, because you give God a tenth of your mint, rue and all other kinds of garden herbs, but you neglect justice and the love of God. You should have practiced the latter without leaving the former undone. (Luke 11:42; cf. Matthew 23:23)
Second, the tithe does not necessarily apply to everyone in the same way. For example, the fact that landless Israelites would not have tithed is instructive for us today. Pastors and teachers should exercise caution when they preach and teach on “the tithe”.Especially when counseling those who are wealthy or poor, pastors should explain that the tithe only represents a fraction of what the Bible teaches about giving. Accordingly, faithful tithing can lead wealthy Christians (which includes almost all Americans) into a false sense of self-righteousness if they mistakenly think of the tithe as a “one-size-fits-all” gift that fulfills all of their financial responsibilities before God. On the other hand, failure to tithe can lead others who are truly poor into a false sense of guilt. In light of the potential for misunderstanding, pastors should not overemphasize the tithe or present it as the Bible’s inflexible standard for giving but, rather, should remind both rich and poor alike that the New Testament praises people who voluntarily express love for God and neighbor by giving sacrificially (Mark 12:33-44; Luke 21:1-4; 2 Corinthians 8:1-5).
We must all remember:
Whoever sows sparingly will also reap sparingly, and whoever sows generously will also reap generously. Each man should give what he has decided in his heart to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver.” (2 Corinthians 9:6-7)
Finally, the use of our tithes and offerings ought to reflect the three ways in which the tithes were used in ancient Israel. However, as we seek to reflect these ways of giving, we should remember: Just as the “first and greatest commandment” is the Bible’s ultimate standard for measuring our giving, the second greatest commandment to “love your neighbor as yourself” (Matthew 22:39) provides the ultimate standard for evaluating the various ways that we give. In other words, it is impossible to love God wholeheartedly unless we consider the needs of others to be as important as our own.
For example, just as the Israelites supported the priests and Levites, who had no other source of income, we must use our giving to support ministers of the gospel and other religious workers in the same way that we would want to be supported (1 Corinthians 9:13-14).
Similarly, just as one-tenth of every Israelite family’s crops and livestock was set aside for community celebration and fellowship, we must prioritize hospitality as an important way of giving, especially toward the poor and friendless (Luke 14:12-14).
Last but not least, we must love the poor as we love ourselves. Just as the Israelites’ tithes were distributed locally to poor and marginalized people, our giving should support our local church diaconate ministry as well as other mercy ministries and poor individuals. Whenever we encounter the needs of others, especially the poor, we must love them as we love ourselves, which means spending ourselves on them as Jesus spent himself on us (2 Corinthians 8:9; see especially Matthew 19:21; 25:31-46; Mark 10:21; Luke 12:33-34; 18:22-24; 19:8; Acts 2:42-47, 4: 34-37; Galatians 2:10; Hebrews 13:16; James 1:26-27, 1 John 3:16-18).
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November 6, 2007 at 1:00 pm
LOL said
Again, what I’ve offered is simply my opinion/understanding of what I’ve read in the Word thus far, and of course, seeing that I’m human, my understanding may be falliable…… but then again the same goes for everyone posting on this site thus far. As long as we’re all after truth and seeking to be people pleasing in the sight of the Lord, it’s all good….
I believe that the tithe still applies, but that doesn’t mean that I believe it applies to us in the same way that it did in the Old Testament; The idea/principle of the tithe is still present in the New Testament (Matthew 23:23), but it is never explicitly applied to believers. Instead, almost all Christians are called to more extravagant freewill giving in response to the gospel of the Lord Jesus, based on faith in God as provider (2 Corinthians 9:6-10)….and I personally believe that tithing is only the starting blocks for a much more extravagant New Testament SACRIFICAL GENEROUSITY….the real thing that ALL OF US SHOULD BE AIMING FOR. The tithe was never the standard of Old Testament generosity, nor is it the standard of Christian generosity today.
Tithing may be a helpful guideline as we strive to develop a lifestyle of even greater giving….and the practice of giving a set percentage of one’s income in order to develop a greater disciplince of sacrifical giving in the future and “excell in the grace of giving” is something that I personally believe tithing can accomplish if one is lacking a disciplined lifestyle/practice of giving. It’s like Randy Alcorn says in his book “Materials/Possessions:
Everyone desires to ride a Bycycle at some point, but apart from training wheels, there never get there to the point where they’re disciplined enough to do it…..but once one begins to grow in their skill, the trainig wheels become uncessary….& likewise, it’s possible for one to see tithing as the training wheels of giving, where the giving of a tenth (or some set percentage of income) can serve to get one into the practice of giving more & more unitl it becomes uncessary ………but it was and is possible to tithe faithfully while neglecting true, biblical generosity (as Jesus pointed out to the Pharisees; see note on Matthew 23:23)……
First, a close look at the Old Testament and other ancient Jewish evidence shows that the tithe (as a mandatory gift equaling a tenth of one’s income) only applied to crops and animals from the promised land, not to all income in any time and place. Moreover, 10 percent was never “the standard,” for there were three tithes (two every year, one every three years) and many other offerings and gifts that were also part of Jewish life. In the Old Testament and today, God usually requires far more from his people than the 10 percent we typically assume.
For those who wonder “Who would have tithed in the Bible?”, apparently, only those who owned land in ancient Israel (the promised land itself) would have tithed an average of 23.3 percent of agricultural produce. There is no evdence that the tithe was ever applied to those who didn’t own land, or to those who did not live in Israel, with one exception: the Levites would give a tenth of the tithe to the priests, who also were commanded to tithe from what had been given to them (Numbers 18:26-28). This shows us that “even full time religious workers were subject to the laws of tithing”. However, Israelites who had become poor and lost their land or those who had moved to cities and engaged in non-agricultural trades almost certainly would have been exempt from tithe under Old Testament law. This casts considerable doubt on the applicability of a “10 percent” tithe for all Christians today…….and again, Instead of settling for a hard-and-fast legal requirement of 10 percent, we should instead pay careful attention to the New Testament’s radical teaching on generosity.
For those wondering “Who would have been exempt from the tithe in the Bible?”, the reality is that those who did not own land in Israel, the promised land itself. In the Old Testament and in early Jewish literature, tithe was not applied to all but only to landowners in Israel, who tithed off the increase of the land, i.e., what God’s promised land produced for them. Accordingly, there is no record of tithing from servants and other non-landowners, widows, sojourners and others in the land since these all received from others. (When the Levites and priests tithe from their share, God promises that he will count to them as “the product of the winepress or the threshing floor,” Numbers 18:27, 30, i.e., a tithe on the produce of the land.) Nor is there any evidence that tithe applied to all money/income, such as artisans in the cities or those who lost their land and became day laborers. This is why the Pharisees are said to tithe their herbs in Matthew 23:23 and Luke 11:42; they only tithed off what they produced in the promised land, as the Old Testament law commanded. When Jesus tells them they should have tithed, the tithe is only affirmed for Pharisees, i.e., relatively successful landowners living under the Law, just as Jesus tells the leper who was healed to present himself to the priests for verification of his purity (again in obedience to the Law). Note that Jesus does not tell them they should have tithed on everything: he tells them they should pursue justice and mercy, loving their neighbor as themselves—a far weightier requirement. Thus, there is no evidence in the Bible that the tithe applied to every single person and to all forms of income. Efforts today to enforce the tithe as a blanket requirement on everything we receive (income, gifts, etc.) are therefore inappropriate, as is the requirement that even the poorest of the poor should tithe. Of course, since we live in an age of unprecedented prosperity, giving less than 10 percent will probably leave most American Christians far short of Jesus’ inflexible requirements: loving God with all we are and loving our neighbor as we love ourselves, in light of Jesus’ sacrificial love for us (see notes on 1 John )
For those who ask “Didn’t Jesus affirm that Christians should tithe?”, the reality is “NO”…..in fact, Jesus expected much MORE from his followers. His command to love others as we love ourselves and as he loved us (John 13:44) is a far higher standard than the tithe.
It is interesting to note that none of the four passages in the New Testament where the tithe is mentioned requires Christians to tithe. Nor do these same passages expect Christians to stop at tithing. Luke 11:42 and Matthew 23:23 recall Jesus’ condemnation of faithful tithers for failing to do justice and mercy; Jesus tells them they should indeed tithe, but he also would have told them that they should indeed circumcise their sons, sacrifice in the temple, participate in Jewish festivals and Sabbath observance, and other such Law-keeping practices no longer mandated for Christians (see, for example, Luke 5:12-14).
Here and in Luke 18:12 (where the Pharisee goes above and beyond tithing on fruit of the land to “everything”; in the same verse he goes above and beyond on fasting by doing more than was required), our attitude and kingdom agenda of justice and mercy are more important than tithing according to Old Testament laws.
Finally, Hebrews 7:4-10 does not advocate that Christians should tithe but specifically says it was something done by Jewish people for Levitical priests on the basis of law; the writer then uses Abraham’s tithe to Melchizedek as allegorical proof of Melchizedek’s superiority to Levitical priests. Instead of settling for 10 percent, we should note the command to give generously and radically, just as Jesus gave to us: loving God with all he had and loving his neighbor—even his enemies—as himself, just as Jesus did (Matthew 22:37-40; 2 Corinthians 8:9; 1 John 3:16-19). John the Baptist raises the standard of giving to 50 percent (Luke 3:11), and Jesus exhorts us to give 100 percent (Luke 21:1-4).
So the scarce mention of the tithe in the New Testament is evidence not that God expects less of us today, but that far more is possible. The tithe is still a helpful guideline insofar as it reminds us to give proportionally to the Lord as he blesses us, since he owns it all anyway. But by New Testament standards, settling for 10 percent can be a recipe for condemnation from Jesus if we are neglected true generosity, just as it was for the tithing Pharisees (Matthew 23:23).
For those wondering “If I am not required to tithe, am I free to give whatever I want?”…….and believe “Yes”, but this doesn’t mean we give whatever we wish, no questions asked. The apostle Paul did say, “Each one should give what he has decided in his heart to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver” (2 Corinthians 9:7). But this begs the question, “How and why should I want to give?” Paul answers this for us in the surrounding passage: He presses the Corinthians to give by talking about the giving of others like the Macedonians, who gave generously with great joy despite their own poverty and suffering (2 Corinthians 8:1-5). He then lays down his aces: “You know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, who for our sakes became poor so that we by his poverty might become rich” (2 Corinthians 8:9). We are to be inspired, says Paul, by Jesus’ own sacrificial example, which we are commanded to follow (Matthew 16:21-28; 1 John 3:16-18).
He then argues that we who have been given much should give generously since this was God’s design (2 Corinthians 8:14). Moreover, the call to generosity is one of the chief ways our “righteousness endures forever” (2 Corinthians 9:9, quoting Psalm 112:9), and God can never be out-given, for he will ensure we reap what we sow (2 Corinthians 9:8). Above all, we can produce praise for our Lord as the world sees his goodness through his people, as we are “made rich in every way so that you can be generous on every occasion” (2 Corinthians 9:11). So the question is not just how much we want to give, but how much we are guided and inspired to give based on the example of Jesus and others, and God’s promises that our giving always will be to our benefit and his glory.
It must be said that people often say “The Bible says that each man should give what he has decided in his own heart to give. So I am free to give as much or as little as I choose, even not at all.”, ….buut while It is true that the apostle Paul says, “Each man should give what he has decided in his heart to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion” (2 Corinthians 9:7)., it does not mean that the apostle is giving us liberty to be as selfish or as stingy as we like. Curiously, this verse is situated in the middle of a passage urging Christians to give generously (vv 6-15). How can this be? Paul’s point is not to give license for selfishness, but to cultivate a love of generosity within his listeners. He does not want to “hold their hands” through the giving process. Rather, he wants them to feel free, creative and excited to give far beyond the ten percent benchmark. Because Jesus has accomplished our redemption and the age of the Spirit has come, Paul’s logic goes, appealing to the tithe laws is unnecessary. Yes, this is a sort of freedom unfamiliar to the Old Testament Jews. But it is a freedom to excel in good deeds, not a freedom to sin.
For those who ask “If I choose to tithe, does God expect more than a tithe from me?”, I believe that For most Christians the answer is a resounding “yes.” The Old Testament sets forth a system of tithes (10 percent offerings). For this reason, many Christians conclude that by giving 10 percent, they fulfill God’s requirement and are absolved of further responsibility. But interestingly, the tithe is mentioned only rarely in the New Testament, not because God expects less from the majority of us, but because far more is possible, particularly given the fact that the Old Testament actually speaks of three tithes totaling 23.3 percent of agricultural income. Because Jesus has accomplished our redemption and the age of the Spirit has come, appealing to the tithe laws is trivial. The standard of giving in the New Testament is in many ways much more radical, rooted in the command to love God with all we are and love our neighbor as ourselves (Matthew 22:34-40; see also 1 John 3:16-18). John the Baptist raises the bar to 50 percent (Luke 3:11), the Lord Jesus 100 percent (Luke 21:1-4), and the apostle Paul “whatever a man purposes in his heart to give” (2 Corinthians 9:7) in light of the truth that God gives us wealth to share with others. “At the present time your plenty will supply what they need, so that in turn their plenty will supply what you need. Then there will be equality” (2 Corinthians 8:14). New Testament believers have more of revelation and of the Holy Spirit than the Old Testament believers did, so God reasonably envisions greater things from us. Those who choose to tithe should think of it as the “training wheels” for a career of ever-growing Christian giving.
For those wondering “If I choose to tithe, what are some healthy ways to use the tithe? , “In general, we need to trust and support our church leaders, since this is largely their domain. For those in church leadership, there may be temptation first to build a budget based on our perceived needs and then to try to meet it with our tithe. But this may not be the best model. Our perceived needs likely will be influenced by ministry models, past experiences and what we see at other churches or organizations while the Bible’s priorities may not even play an important role. Therefore, leaders should diligently pay attention to Scripture’s priorities for our offerings and tithes, prayerfully keeping God’s word before us as we weigh our use of God’s money.
For those wondering “If I choose to tithe, what are some unhealthy ways to use the tithe?” one must realize that If we apply the tithe to ourselves or to others as a blanket requirement, as a “bare minimum” for every single person regardless of income or circumstance; or if we apply the tithe as a means of making God happy, we are going beyond what Scripture says. Similarly, if we think that tithing excuses us from giving anything else, we are probably in danger of being condemned, just like the Pharisees, who tithed but neglected “the weightier matters of the law” with their money by failing to practice justice and mercy and the love of God (Matthew 23:23; Luke 11:42). This is particularly true of those who have little income but live off a large net worth yet refuse to give from their net worth because the tithe “only applies to income,” not their net worth. If we as church leaders only allow people to tithe for church buildings and pastor salaries, we have missed the important emphasis on the poor, the sojourner and the widow, as well as the community-building aspects of the tithe through feasts with those from all classes and economic levels of society.
If the way in which we spend our tithes does not impact others (especially the very poor or those living off welfare or disability), we are missing the spirit of the Old Testament tithe, which was given to bless just such people.
Before considering whethers Christians should be encouraged to tithe today, I think we should look into some facts, judging from statistics at Barna Research Institute looking into the giving habits of 2001,
Compared to 1999m the mean per capita donation to churches dropped by 19% in 2000
Among born-again adults, there was a 44 percent rise in those who gave nothing
Comparing giving habits of those in their twenties, forties, and sixties was revealing: “Busters are substantially less likely (36%) than Boomers (58%), Builders (68%), or Seniors (68%) to give to a church in a given month.” Between 30 and 50percent of active church attentender gave nothing. And the 70% of Christians have no wills at the time they diem they don’t leave any money to their church or Christian Ministries. Many of the remaining 30% who do have wills desiginate no money to God’s Work.
All of us have to acknowledge that there has been a general DECLINE in how much Christians have been excited about/seeking to give in gradual years, and, though I can’t say the same about everyone else, this is alarming to me…..I’ve often heard many who’ve argued angrily that tithing is legalism (which I think is inaccurate…….for although It is certainly true that Jesus and Paul (along with the other biblical authors) condemn legalism very harshly (Matthew 23, Galatians 3), Legalism is trusting in one’s own good works to attain righteousness before God while Gospel, on the other hand, is trusting in God’s work to attain righteousness…and it is good to pursue righteousness provided you must do it in the right way–and which is why it seems to be unreasonable for one to claim tithing as a a form of legalism, when the reality is that Tithing can simply be an act of obedience to God…..and Done in the right way—trusting in God for strength—it is a beautiful act while Done in the wrong way—trusting in oneself for righteousness—it is an ugly and arrogant act….for Legalism lies not in the act of giving, but inside our own hearts.)
For those against tithing and claiming “It’s bondage” and we’ve been liberated into “grace giving” to give whatever we feel like and whenever, I think that we should pause seeing that the Isrealites’ triple tithes amounted to 23 percent of their income—in contrast to the average 2.5 percent of giving of American giving…and to me, it’s alarming to see statitcis that seem to give the impression that the LAW was about 10 times more effective than the “grace” we’ve been preaching. Even in using 10% as the measure, it seems that the Isrealites were four times more responsive to the LAW of Moses than the average AMERICAN is to the “Grace of Christ”
When we as NT Believers, living in a far more affluent society than ancient Israel, freely give only a FRACTION of what was required by the poorest OT believers, perhaps we need to reevaluate our concept of “grace giving”. And, when we consider that we have God’s indwelling Spirit of God and they didn’t, the contrast becomes even more glaring….AND ADD TO THAT HOW EVEN THE GIVING THAT MANY AMERICAN CHRISTIANS ARE INTO DOESN’T EVEN COMPARE TO THE VOLUNTARY GIVING THAT TOOK PLACE IN THE OT BY MANY outside of tithing and how many were caught up into it………God’s expectation that his people give substantially never changed in the NT.
The pro-grace or anti-legalism trump card rings hollow when it attempts to normalize wealthy Christians giving less than the poorest Israelite, and while appearing to take the theological high ground, it often seemst to be effectively saying that THE POWER OF NT GRACE IS LESS THAN THAT OF LAW……such a view is an insult to the saving and empowering work of Christ.
Honestly, we all tend to naturally embrace arguments that serve our pre-conceived self interests, and I think that it may behoove many of us against tithing to examine our hearts to discover whether when we say “Tithing is not for today” or “We should be grace givers” that we are not using grace as a license to sin or cluth tighter to material wealth, especially in light of how the NT clearly demostrates that Christians are called upon to be more sacrifical and generous, not less that those in the OT.
If we can learn to give without tithing, cool. but the giving track record of American Christians clearly indicates we have not learned to give….that, in fact, we’ve learned not to give….and though some fine Bible teachers preach against encouraging tithing,….though they themselves may be strong givers, I don’t think they may realize the effects of their words on those who have no concept of disciiplined giving. Trust me, I’ll listen to any Christian who says “TITHING ISN’T MEANT FOR TODAY”—provided that they give REGUARLY themselves and that their giving exceeds the tithe. But, honestly, there often seems to be a hidden agenda behind the protest….at best, innocent deception on the issue of Money and Stewardship.
If we’re to not support tithing, we need to make sure that we get accross the fact that the GOD HAS NOT LOWERED HIS STANDARDS OF GIVING……and that we must learn to become SACRIFICAL GIVERS TO THE LORD’S WORK.
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November 6, 2007 at 1:01 pm
LOL said
Again, what I’ve offered is simply my opinion/understanding of what I’ve read in the Word thus far, and of course, seeing that I’m human, my understanding may be falliable…… but then again the same goes for everyone posting on this site thus far. As long as we’re all after truth and seeking to be people pleasing in the sight of the Lord, it’s all good….
I believe that the tithe still applies, but that doesn’t mean that I believe it applies to us in the same way that it did in the Old Testament; The idea/principle of the tithe is still present in the New Testament (Matthew 23:23), but it is never explicitly applied to believers. Instead, almost all Christians are called to more extravagant freewill giving in response to the gospel of the Lord Jesus, based on faith in God as provider (2 Corinthians 9:6-10)….and I personally believe that tithing is only the starting blocks for a much more extravagant New Testament SACRIFICAL GENEROUSITY….the real thing that ALL OF US SHOULD BE AIMING FOR. The tithe was never the standard of Old Testament generosity, nor is it the standard of Christian generosity today.
Tithing may be a helpful guideline as we strive to develop a lifestyle of even greater giving….and the practice of giving a set percentage of one’s income in order to develop a greater disciplince of sacrifical giving in the future and “excell in the grace of giving” is something that I personally believe tithing can accomplish if one is lacking a disciplined lifestyle/practice of giving. It’s like Randy Alcorn says in his book “Materials/Possessions:
Everyone desires to ride a Bycycle at some point, but apart from training wheels, there never get there to the point where they’re disciplined enough to do it…..but once one begins to grow in their skill, the trainig wheels become uncessary….& likewise, it’s possible for one to see tithing as the training wheels of giving, where the giving of a tenth (or some set percentage of income) can serve to get one into the practice of giving more & more unitl it becomes uncessary ………but it was and is possible to tithe faithfully while neglecting true, biblical generosity (as Jesus pointed out to the Pharisees; see note on Matthew 23:23)……
First, a close look at the Old Testament and other ancient Jewish evidence shows that the tithe (as a mandatory gift equaling a tenth of one’s income) only applied to crops and animals from the promised land, not to all income in any time and place. Moreover, 10 percent was never “the standard,” for there were three tithes (two every year, one every three years) and many other offerings and gifts that were also part of Jewish life. In the Old Testament and today, God usually requires far more from his people than the 10 percent we typically assume.
For those who wonder “Who would have tithed in the Bible?”, apparently, only those who owned land in ancient Israel (the promised land itself) would have tithed an average of 23.3 percent of agricultural produce. There is no evdence that the tithe was ever applied to those who didn’t own land, or to those who did not live in Israel, with one exception: the Levites would give a tenth of the tithe to the priests, who also were commanded to tithe from what had been given to them (Numbers 18:26-28). This shows us that “even full time religious workers were subject to the laws of tithing”. However, Israelites who had become poor and lost their land or those who had moved to cities and engaged in non-agricultural trades almost certainly would have been exempt from tithe under Old Testament law. This casts considerable doubt on the applicability of a “10 percent” tithe for all Christians today…….and again, Instead of settling for a hard-and-fast legal requirement of 10 percent, we should instead pay careful attention to the New Testament’s radical teaching on generosity.
For those wondering “Who would have been exempt from the tithe in the Bible?”, the reality is that those who did not own land in Israel, the promised land itself. In the Old Testament and in early Jewish literature, tithe was not applied to all but only to landowners in Israel, who tithed off the increase of the land, i.e., what God’s promised land produced for them. Accordingly, there is no record of tithing from servants and other non-landowners, widows, sojourners and others in the land since these all received from others. (When the Levites and priests tithe from their share, God promises that he will count to them as “the product of the winepress or the threshing floor,” Numbers 18:27, 30, i.e., a tithe on the produce of the land.) Nor is there any evidence that tithe applied to all money/income, such as artisans in the cities or those who lost their land and became day laborers. This is why the Pharisees are said to tithe their herbs in Matthew 23:23 and Luke 11:42; they only tithed off what they produced in the promised land, as the Old Testament law commanded. When Jesus tells them they should have tithed, the tithe is only affirmed for Pharisees, i.e., relatively successful landowners living under the Law, just as Jesus tells the leper who was healed to present himself to the priests for verification of his purity (again in obedience to the Law). Note that Jesus does not tell them they should have tithed on everything: he tells them they should pursue justice and mercy, loving their neighbor as themselves—a far weightier requirement. Thus, there is no evidence in the Bible that the tithe applied to every single person and to all forms of income. Efforts today to enforce the tithe as a blanket requirement on everything we receive (income, gifts, etc.) are therefore inappropriate, as is the requirement that even the poorest of the poor should tithe. Of course, since we live in an age of unprecedented prosperity, giving less than 10 percent will probably leave most American Christians far short of Jesus’ inflexible requirements: loving God with all we are and loving our neighbor as we love ourselves, in light of Jesus’ sacrificial love for us (see notes on 1 John )
For those who ask “Didn’t Jesus affirm that Christians should tithe?”, the reality is “NO”…..in fact, Jesus expected much MORE from his followers. His command to love others as we love ourselves and as he loved us (John 13:44) is a far higher standard than the tithe.
It is interesting to note that none of the four passages in the New Testament where the tithe is mentioned requires Christians to tithe. Nor do these same passages expect Christians to stop at tithing. Luke 11:42 and Matthew 23:23 recall Jesus’ condemnation of faithful tithers for failing to do justice and mercy; Jesus tells them they should indeed tithe, but he also would have told them that they should indeed circumcise their sons, sacrifice in the temple, participate in Jewish festivals and Sabbath observance, and other such Law-keeping practices no longer mandated for Christians (see, for example, Luke 5:12-14).
Here and in Luke 18:12 (where the Pharisee goes above and beyond tithing on fruit of the land to “everything”; in the same verse he goes above and beyond on fasting by doing more than was required), our attitude and kingdom agenda of justice and mercy are more important than tithing according to Old Testament laws.
Finally, Hebrews 7:4-10 does not advocate that Christians should tithe but specifically says it was something done by Jewish people for Levitical priests on the basis of law; the writer then uses Abraham’s tithe to Melchizedek as allegorical proof of Melchizedek’s superiority to Levitical priests. Instead of settling for 10 percent, we should note the command to give generously and radically, just as Jesus gave to us: loving God with all he had and loving his neighbor—even his enemies—as himself, just as Jesus did (Matthew 22:37-40; 2 Corinthians 8:9; 1 John 3:16-19). John the Baptist raises the standard of giving to 50 percent (Luke 3:11), and Jesus exhorts us to give 100 percent (Luke 21:1-4).
So the scarce mention of the tithe in the New Testament is evidence not that God expects less of us today, but that far more is possible. The tithe is still a helpful guideline insofar as it reminds us to give proportionally to the Lord as he blesses us, since he owns it all anyway. But by New Testament standards, settling for 10 percent can be a recipe for condemnation from Jesus if we are neglected true generosity, just as it was for the tithing Pharisees (Matthew 23:23).
For those wondering “If I am not required to tithe, am I free to give whatever I want?”…….and believe “Yes”, but this doesn’t mean we give whatever we wish, no questions asked. The apostle Paul did say, “Each one should give what he has decided in his heart to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver” (2 Corinthians 9:7). But this begs the question, “How and why should I want to give?” Paul answers this for us in the surrounding passage: He presses the Corinthians to give by talking about the giving of others like the Macedonians, who gave generously with great joy despite their own poverty and suffering (2 Corinthians 8:1-5). He then lays down his aces: “You know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, who for our sakes became poor so that we by his poverty might become rich” (2 Corinthians 8:9). We are to be inspired, says Paul, by Jesus’ own sacrificial example, which we are commanded to follow (Matthew 16:21-28; 1 John 3:16-18).
He then argues that we who have been given much should give generously since this was God’s design (2 Corinthians 8:14). Moreover, the call to generosity is one of the chief ways our “righteousness endures forever” (2 Corinthians 9:9, quoting Psalm 112:9), and God can never be out-given, for he will ensure we reap what we sow (2 Corinthians 9:8). Above all, we can produce praise for our Lord as the world sees his goodness through his people, as we are “made rich in every way so that you can be generous on every occasion” (2 Corinthians 9:11). So the question is not just how much we want to give, but how much we are guided and inspired to give based on the example of Jesus and others, and God’s promises that our giving always will be to our benefit and his glory.
It must be said that people often say “The Bible says that each man should give what he has decided in his own heart to give. So I am free to give as much or as little as I choose, even not at all.”, ….buut while It is true that the apostle Paul says, “Each man should give what he has decided in his heart to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion” (2 Corinthians 9:7)., it does not mean that the apostle is giving us liberty to be as selfish or as stingy as we like. Curiously, this verse is situated in the middle of a passage urging Christians to give generously (vv 6-15). How can this be? Paul’s point is not to give license for selfishness, but to cultivate a love of generosity within his listeners. He does not want to “hold their hands” through the giving process. Rather, he wants them to feel free, creative and excited to give far beyond the ten percent benchmark. Because Jesus has accomplished our redemption and the age of the Spirit has come, Paul’s logic goes, appealing to the tithe laws is unnecessary. Yes, this is a sort of freedom unfamiliar to the Old Testament Jews. But it is a freedom to excel in good deeds, not a freedom to sin.
For those who ask “If I choose to tithe, does God expect more than a tithe from me?”, I believe that For most Christians the answer is a resounding “yes.” The Old Testament sets forth a system of tithes (10 percent offerings). For this reason, many Christians conclude that by giving 10 percent, they fulfill God’s requirement and are absolved of further responsibility. But interestingly, the tithe is mentioned only rarely in the New Testament, not because God expects less from the majority of us, but because far more is possible, particularly given the fact that the Old Testament actually speaks of three tithes totaling 23.3 percent of agricultural income. Because Jesus has accomplished our redemption and the age of the Spirit has come, appealing to the tithe laws is trivial. The standard of giving in the New Testament is in many ways much more radical, rooted in the command to love God with all we are and love our neighbor as ourselves (Matthew 22:34-40; see also 1 John 3:16-18). John the Baptist raises the bar to 50 percent (Luke 3:11), the Lord Jesus 100 percent (Luke 21:1-4), and the apostle Paul “whatever a man purposes in his heart to give” (2 Corinthians 9:7) in light of the truth that God gives us wealth to share with others. “At the present time your plenty will supply what they need, so that in turn their plenty will supply what you need. Then there will be equality” (2 Corinthians 8:14). New Testament believers have more of revelation and of the Holy Spirit than the Old Testament believers did, so God reasonably envisions greater things from us. Those who choose to tithe should think of it as the “training wheels” for a career of ever-growing Christian giving.
For those wondering “If I choose to tithe, what are some healthy ways to use the tithe? , “In general, we need to trust and support our church leaders, since this is largely their domain. For those in church leadership, there may be temptation first to build a budget based on our perceived needs and then to try to meet it with our tithe. But this may not be the best model. Our perceived needs likely will be influenced by ministry models, past experiences and what we see at other churches or organizations while the Bible’s priorities may not even play an important role. Therefore, leaders should diligently pay attention to Scripture’s priorities for our offerings and tithes, prayerfully keeping God’s word before us as we weigh our use of God’s money.
For those wondering “If I choose to tithe, what are some unhealthy ways to use the tithe?” one must realize that If we apply the tithe to ourselves or to others as a blanket requirement, as a “bare minimum” for every single person regardless of income or circumstance; or if we apply the tithe as a means of making God happy, we are going beyond what Scripture says. Similarly, if we think that tithing excuses us from giving anything else, we are probably in danger of being condemned, just like the Pharisees, who tithed but neglected “the weightier matters of the law” with their money by failing to practice justice and mercy and the love of God (Matthew 23:23; Luke 11:42). This is particularly true of those who have little income but live off a large net worth yet refuse to give from their net worth because the tithe “only applies to income,” not their net worth. If we as church leaders only allow people to tithe for church buildings and pastor salaries, we have missed the important emphasis on the poor, the sojourner and the widow, as well as the community-building aspects of the tithe through feasts with those from all classes and economic levels of society.
If the way in which we spend our tithes does not impact others (especially the very poor or those living off welfare or disability), we are missing the spirit of the Old Testament tithe, which was given to bless just such people.
-
November 6, 2007 at 1:01 pm
LOL said
Again, what I’ve offered is simply my opinion/understanding of what I’ve read in the Word thus far, and of course, seeing that I’m human, my understanding may be falliable…… but then again the same goes for everyone posting on this site thus far. As long as we’re all after truth and seeking to be people pleasing in the sight of the Lord, it’s all good….
I believe that the tithe still applies, but that doesn’t mean that I believe it applies to us in the same way that it did in the Old Testament; The idea/principle of the tithe is still present in the New Testament (Matthew 23:23), but it is never explicitly applied to believers. Instead, almost all Christians are called to more extravagant freewill giving in response to the gospel of the Lord Jesus, based on faith in God as provider (2 Corinthians 9:6-10)….and I personally believe that tithing is only the starting blocks for a much more extravagant New Testament SACRIFICAL GENEROUSITY….the real thing that ALL OF US SHOULD BE AIMING FOR. The tithe was never the standard of Old Testament generosity, nor is it the standard of Christian generosity today.
Tithing may be a helpful guideline as we strive to develop a lifestyle of even greater giving….and the practice of giving a set percentage of one’s income in order to develop a greater disciplince of sacrifical giving in the future and “excell in the grace of giving” is something that I personally believe tithing can accomplish if one is lacking a disciplined lifestyle/practice of giving. It’s like Randy Alcorn says in his book “Materials/Possessions:
Everyone desires to ride a Bycycle at some point, but apart from training wheels, there never get there to the point where they’re disciplined enough to do it…..but once one begins to grow in their skill, the trainig wheels become uncessary….& likewise, it’s possible for one to see tithing as the training wheels of giving, where the giving of a tenth (or some set percentage of income) can serve to get one into the practice of giving more & more unitl it becomes uncessary ………but it was and is possible to tithe faithfully while neglecting true, biblical generosity (as Jesus pointed out to the Pharisees; see note on Matthew 23:23)……
Again, what I’ve offered is simply my opinion/understanding of what I’ve read in the Word thus far, and of course, seeing that I’m human, my understanding may be falliable…… but then again the same goes for everyone posting on this site thus far. As long as we’re all after truth and seeking to be people pleasing in the sight of the Lord, it’s all good….
I believe that the tithe still applies, but that doesn’t mean that I believe it applies to us in the same way that it did in the Old Testament; The idea/principle of the tithe is still present in the New Testament (Matthew 23:23), but it is never explicitly applied to believers. Instead, almost all Christians are called to more extravagant freewill giving in response to the gospel of the Lord Jesus, based on faith in God as provider (2 Corinthians 9:6-10)….and I personally believe that tithing is only the starting blocks for a much more extravagant New Testament SACRIFICAL GENEROUSITY….the real thing that ALL OF US SHOULD BE AIMING FOR. The tithe was never the standard of Old Testament generosity, nor is it the standard of Christian generosity today.
Tithing may be a helpful guideline as we strive to develop a lifestyle of even greater giving….and the practice of giving a set percentage of one’s income in order to develop a greater disciplince of sacrifical giving in the future and “excell in the grace of giving” is something that I personally believe tithing can accomplish if one is lacking a disciplined lifestyle/practice of giving. It’s like Randy Alcorn says in his book “Materials/Possessions:
Everyone desires to ride a Bycycle at some point, but apart from training wheels, there never get there to the point where they’re disciplined enough to do it…..but once one begins to grow in their skill, the trainig wheels become uncessary….& likewise, it’s possible for one to see tithing as the training wheels of giving, where the giving of a tenth (or some set percentage of income) can serve to get one into the practice of giving more & more unitl it becomes uncessary ………but it was and is possible to tithe faithfully while neglecting true, biblical generosity (as Jesus pointed out to the Pharisees; see note on Matthew 23:23)……
First, a close look at the Old Testament and other ancient Jewish evidence shows that the tithe (as a mandatory gift equaling a tenth of one’s income) only applied to crops and animals from the promised land, not to all income in any time and place. Moreover, 10 percent was never “the standard,” for there were three tithes (two every year, one every three years) and many other offerings and gifts that were also part of Jewish life. In the Old Testament and today, God usually requires far more from his people than the 10 percent we typically assume.
For those who wonder “Who would have tithed in the Bible?”, apparently, only those who owned land in ancient Israel (the promised land itself) would have tithed an average of 23.3 percent of agricultural produce. There is no evdence that the tithe was ever applied to those who didn’t own land, or to those who did not live in Israel, with one exception: the Levites would give a tenth of the tithe to the priests, who also were commanded to tithe from what had been given to them (Numbers 18:26-28). This shows us that “even full time religious workers were subject to the laws of tithing”. However, Israelites who had become poor and lost their land or those who had moved to cities and engaged in non-agricultural trades almost certainly would have been exempt from tithe under Old Testament law. This casts considerable doubt on the applicability of a “10 percent” tithe for all Christians today…….and again, Instead of settling for a hard-and-fast legal requirement of 10 percent, we should instead pay careful attention to the New Testament’s radical teaching on generosity.
For those wondering “Who would have been exempt from the tithe in the Bible?”, the reality is that those who did not own land in Israel, the promised land itself. In the Old Testament and in early Jewish literature, tithe was not applied to all but only to landowners in Israel, who tithed off the increase of the land, i.e., what God’s promised land produced for them. Accordingly, there is no record of tithing from servants and other non-landowners, widows, sojourners and others in the land since these all received from others. (When the Levites and priests tithe from their share, God promises that he will count to them as “the product of the winepress or the threshing floor,” Numbers 18:27, 30, i.e., a tithe on the produce of the land.) Nor is there any evidence that tithe applied to all money/income, such as artisans in the cities or those who lost their land and became day laborers. This is why the Pharisees are said to tithe their herbs in Matthew 23:23 and Luke 11:42; they only tithed off what they produced in the promised land, as the Old Testament law commanded. When Jesus tells them they should have tithed, the tithe is only affirmed for Pharisees, i.e., relatively successful landowners living under the Law, just as Jesus tells the leper who was healed to present himself to the priests for verification of his purity (again in obedience to the Law). Note that Jesus does not tell them they should have tithed on everything: he tells them they should pursue justice and mercy, loving their neighbor as themselves—a far weightier requirement. Thus, there is no evidence in the Bible that the tithe applied to every single person and to all forms of income. Efforts today to enforce the tithe as a blanket requirement on everything we receive (income, gifts, etc.) are therefore inappropriate, as is the requirement that even the poorest of the poor should tithe. Of course, since we live in an age of unprecedented prosperity, giving less than 10 percent will probably leave most American Christians far short of Jesus’ inflexible requirements: loving God with all we are and loving our neighbor as we love ourselves, in light of Jesus’ sacrificial love for us (see notes on 1 John )
For those who ask “Didn’t Jesus affirm that Christians should tithe?”, the reality is “NO”…..in fact, Jesus expected much MORE from his followers. His command to love others as we love ourselves and as he loved us (John 13:44) is a far higher standard than the tithe.
It is interesting to note that none of the four passages in the New Testament where the tithe is mentioned requires Christians to tithe. Nor do these same passages expect Christians to stop at tithing. Luke 11:42 and Matthew 23:23 recall Jesus’ condemnation of faithful tithers for failing to do justice and mercy; Jesus tells them they should indeed tithe, but he also would have told them that they should indeed circumcise their sons, sacrifice in the temple, participate in Jewish festivals and Sabbath observance, and other such Law-keeping practices no longer mandated for Christians (see, for example, Luke 5:12-14).
Here and in Luke 18:12 (where the Pharisee goes above and beyond tithing on fruit of the land to “everything”; in the same verse he goes above and beyond on fasting by doing more than was required), our attitude and kingdom agenda of justice and mercy are more important than tithing according to Old Testament laws.
Finally, Hebrews 7:4-10 does not advocate that Christians should tithe but specifically says it was something done by Jewish people for Levitical priests on the basis of law; the writer then uses Abraham’s tithe to Melchizedek as allegorical proof of Melchizedek’s superiority to Levitical priests. Instead of settling for 10 percent, we should note the command to give generously and radically, just as Jesus gave to us: loving God with all he had and loving his neighbor—even his enemies—as himself, just as Jesus did (Matthew 22:37-40; 2 Corinthians 8:9; 1 John 3:16-19). John the Baptist raises the standard of giving to 50 percent (Luke 3:11), and Jesus exhorts us to give 100 percent (Luke 21:1-4).
So the scarce mention of the tithe in the New Testament is evidence not that God expects less of us today, but that far more is possible. The tithe is still a helpful guideline insofar as it reminds us to give proportionally to the Lord as he blesses us, since he owns it all anyway. But by New Testament standards, settling for 10 percent can be a recipe for condemnation from Jesus if we are neglected true generosity, just as it was for the tithing Pharisees (Matthew 23:23).
For those wondering “If I am not required to tithe, am I free to give whatever I want?”…….and believe “Yes”, but this doesn’t mean we give whatever we wish, no questions asked. The apostle Paul did say, “Each one should give what he has decided in his heart to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver” (2 Corinthians 9:7). But this begs the question, “How and why should I want to give?” Paul answers this for us in the surrounding passage: He presses the Corinthians to give by talking about the giving of others like the Macedonians, who gave generously with great joy despite their own poverty and suffering (2 Corinthians 8:1-5). He then lays down his aces: “You know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, who for our sakes became poor so that we by his poverty might become rich” (2 Corinthians 8:9). We are to be inspired, says Paul, by Jesus’ own sacrificial example, which we are commanded to follow (Matthew 16:21-28; 1 John 3:16-18).
He then argues that we who have been given much should give generously since this was God’s design (2 Corinthians 8:14). Moreover, the call to generosity is one of the chief ways our “righteousness endures forever” (2 Corinthians 9:9, quoting Psalm 112:9), and God can never be out-given, for he will ensure we reap what we sow (2 Corinthians 9:8). Above all, we can produce praise for our Lord as the world sees his goodness through his people, as we are “made rich in every way so that you can be generous on every occasion” (2 Corinthians 9:11). So the question is not just how much we want to give, but how much we are guided and inspired to give based on the example of Jesus and others, and God’s promises that our giving always will be to our benefit and his glory.
It must be said that people often say “The Bible says that each man should give what he has decided in his own heart to give. So I am free to give as much or as little as I choose, even not at all.”, ….buut while It is true that the apostle Paul says, “Each man should give what he has decided in his heart to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion” (2 Corinthians 9:7)., it does not mean that the apostle is giving us liberty to be as selfish or as stingy as we like. Curiously, this verse is situated in the middle of a passage urging Christians to give generously (vv 6-15). How can this be? Paul’s point is not to give license for selfishness, but to cultivate a love of generosity within his listeners. He does not want to “hold their hands” through the giving process. Rather, he wants them to feel free, creative and excited to give far beyond the ten percent benchmark. Because Jesus has accomplished our redemption and the age of the Spirit has come, Paul’s logic goes, appealing to the tithe laws is unnecessary. Yes, this is a sort of freedom unfamiliar to the Old Testament Jews. But it is a freedom to excel in good deeds, not a freedom to sin.
For those who ask “If I choose to tithe, does God expect more than a tithe from me?”, I believe that For most Christians the answer is a resounding “yes.” The Old Testament sets forth a system of tithes (10 percent offerings). For this reason, many Christians conclude that by giving 10 percent, they fulfill God’s requirement and are absolved of further responsibility. But interestingly, the tithe is mentioned only rarely in the New Testament, not because God expects less from the majority of us, but because far more is possible, particularly given the fact that the Old Testament actually speaks of three tithes totaling 23.3 percent of agricultural income. Because Jesus has accomplished our redemption and the age of the Spirit has come, appealing to the tithe laws is trivial. The standard of giving in the New Testament is in many ways much more radical, rooted in the command to love God with all we are and love our neighbor as ourselves (Matthew 22:34-40; see also 1 John 3:16-18). John the Baptist raises the bar to 50 percent (Luke 3:11), the Lord Jesus 100 percent (Luke 21:1-4), and the apostle Paul “whatever a man purposes in his heart to give” (2 Corinthians 9:7) in light of the truth that God gives us wealth to share with others. “At the present time your plenty will supply what they need, so that in turn their plenty will supply what you need. Then there will be equality” (2 Corinthians 8:14). New Testament believers have more of revelation and of the Holy Spirit than the Old Testament believers did, so God reasonably envisions greater things from us. Those who choose to tithe should think of it as the “training wheels” for a career of ever-growing Christian giving.
For those wondering “If I choose to tithe, what are some healthy ways to use the tithe? , “In general, we need to trust and support our church leaders, since this is largely their domain. For those in church leadership, there may be temptation first to build a budget based on our perceived needs and then to try to meet it with our tithe. But this may not be the best model. Our perceived needs likely will be influenced by ministry models, past experiences and what we see at other churches or organizations while the Bible’s priorities may not even play an important role. Therefore, leaders should diligently pay attention to Scripture’s priorities for our offerings and tithes, prayerfully keeping God’s word before us as we weigh our use of God’s money.
For those wondering “If I choose to tithe, what are some unhealthy ways to use the tithe?” one must realize that If we apply the tithe to ourselves or to others as a blanket requirement, as a “bare minimum” for every single person regardless of income or circumstance; or if we apply the tithe as a means of making God happy, we are going beyond what Scripture says. Similarly, if we think that tithing excuses us from giving anything else, we are probably in danger of being condemned, just like the Pharisees, who tithed but neglected “the weightier matters of the law” with their money by failing to practice justice and mercy and the love of God (Matthew 23:23; Luke 11:42). This is particularly true of those who have little income but live off a large net worth yet refuse to give from their net worth because the tithe “only applies to income,” not their net worth. If we as church leaders only allow people to tithe for church buildings and pastor salaries, we have missed the important emphasis on the poor, the sojourner and the widow, as well as the community-building aspects of the tithe through feasts with those from all classes and economic levels of society.
If the way in which we spend our tithes does not impact others (especially the very poor or those living off welfare or disability), we are missing the spirit of the Old Testament tithe, which was given to bless just such people.
Before considering whethers Christians should be encouraged to tithe today, I think we should look into some facts, judging from statistics at Barna Research Institute looking into the giving habits of 2001,
Compared to 1999m the mean per capita donation to churches dropped by 19% in 2000
Among born-again adults, there was a 44 percent rise in those who gave nothing
Comparing giving habits of those in their twenties, forties, and sixties was revealing: “Busters are substantially less likely (36%) than Boomers (58%), Builders (68%), or Seniors (68%) to give to a church in a given month.” Between 30 and 50percent of active church attentender gave nothing. And the 70% of Christians have no wills at the time they diem they don’t leave any money to their church or Christian Ministries. Many of the remaining 30% who do have wills desiginate no money to God’s Work.
All of us have to acknowledge that there has been a general DECLINE in how much Christians have been excited about/seeking to give in gradual years, and, though I can’t say the same about everyone else, this is alarming to me…..I’ve often heard many who’ve argued angrily that tithing is legalism (which I think is inaccurate…….for although It is certainly true that Jesus and Paul (along with the other biblical authors) condemn legalism very harshly (Matthew 23, Galatians 3), Legalism is trusting in one’s own good works to attain righteousness before God while Gospel, on the other hand, is trusting in God’s work to attain righteousness…and it is good to pursue righteousness provided you must do it in the right way–and which is why it seems to be unreasonable for one to claim tithing as a a form of legalism, when the reality is that Tithing can simply be an act of obedience to God…..and Done in the right way—trusting in God for strength—it is a beautiful act while Done in the wrong way—trusting in oneself for righteousness—it is an ugly and arrogant act….for Legalism lies not in the act of giving, but inside our own hearts.)
For those against tithing and claiming “It’s bondage” and we’ve been liberated into “grace giving” to give whatever we feel like and whenever, I think that we should pause seeing that the Isrealites’ triple tithes amounted to 23 percent of their income—in contrast to the average 2.5 percent of giving of American giving…and to me, it’s alarming to see statitcis that seem to give the impression that the LAW was about 10 times more effective than the “grace” we’ve been preaching. Even in using 10% as the measure, it seems that the Isrealites were four times more responsive to the LAW of Moses than the average AMERICAN is to the “Grace of Christ”
When we as NT Believers, living in a far more affluent society than ancient Israel, freely give only a FRACTION of what was required by the poorest OT believers, perhaps we need to reevaluate our concept of “grace giving”. And, when we consider that we have God’s indwelling Spirit of God and they didn’t, the contrast becomes even more glaring….AND ADD TO THAT HOW EVEN THE GIVING THAT MANY AMERICAN CHRISTIANS ARE INTO DOESN’T EVEN COMPARE TO THE VOLUNTARY GIVING THAT TOOK PLACE IN THE OT BY MANY outside of tithing and how many were caught up into it………God’s expectation that his people give substantially never changed in the NT.
The pro-grace or anti-legalism trump card rings hollow when it attempts to normalize wealthy Christians giving less than the poorest Israelite, and while appearing to take the theological high ground, it often seemst to be effectively saying that THE POWER OF NT GRACE IS LESS THAN THAT OF LAW……such a view is an insult to the saving and empowering work of Christ.
Honestly, we all tend to naturally embrace arguments that serve our pre-conceived self interests, and I think that it may behoove many of us against tithing to examine our hearts to discover whether when we say “Tithing is not for today” or “We should be grace givers” that we are not using grace as a license to sin or cluth tighter to material wealth, especially in light of how the NT clearly demostrates that Christians are called upon to be more sacrifical and generous, not less that those in the OT.
If we can learn to give without tithing, cool. but the giving track record of American Christians clearly indicates we have not learned to give….that, in fact, we’ve learned not to give….and though some fine Bible teachers preach against encouraging tithing,….though they themselves may be strong givers, I don’t think they may realize the effects of their words on those who have no concept of disciiplined giving. Trust me, I’ll listen to any Christian who says “TITHING ISN’T MEANT FOR TODAY”—provided that they give REGUARLY themselves and that their giving exceeds the tithe. But, honestly, there often seems to be a hidden agenda behind the protest….at best, innocent deception on the issue of Money and Stewardship.
If we’re to not support tithing, we need to make sure that we get accross the fact that the GOD HAS NOT LOWERED HIS STANDARDS OF GIVING……and that we must learn to become SACRIFICAL GIVERS TO THE LORD’S WORK.
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November 6, 2007 at 1:02 pm
LOL said
Again, what I’ve offered is simply my opinion/understanding of what I’ve read in the Word thus far, and of course, seeing that I’m human, my understanding may be falliable…… but then again the same goes for everyone posting on this site thus far. As long as we’re all after truth and seeking to be people pleasing in the sight of the Lord, it’s all good….
I believe that the tithe still applies, but that doesn’t mean that I believe it applies to us in the same way that it did in the Old Testament; The idea/principle of the tithe is still present in the New Testament (Matthew 23:23), but it is never explicitly applied to believers. Instead, almost all Christians are called to more extravagant freewill giving in response to the gospel of the Lord Jesus, based on faith in God as provider (2 Corinthians 9:6-10)….and I personally believe that tithing is only the starting blocks for a much more extravagant New Testament SACRIFICAL GENEROUSITY….the real thing that ALL OF US SHOULD BE AIMING FOR. The tithe was never the standard of Old Testament generosity, nor is it the standard of Christian generosity today.
Tithing may be a helpful guideline as we strive to develop a lifestyle of even greater giving….and the practice of giving a set percentage of one’s income in order to develop a greater disciplince of sacrifical giving in the future and “excell in the grace of giving” is something that I personally believe tithing can accomplish if one is lacking a disciplined lifestyle/practice of giving. It’s like Randy Alcorn says in his book “Materials/Possessions:
Everyone desires to ride a Bycycle at some point, but apart from training wheels, there never get there to the point where they’re disciplined enough to do it…..but once one begins to grow in their skill, the trainig wheels become uncessary….& likewise, it’s possible for one to see tithing as the training wheels of giving, where the giving of a tenth (or some set percentage of income) can serve to get one into the practice of giving more & more unitl it becomes uncessary ………but it was and is possible to tithe faithfully while neglecting true, biblical generosity (as Jesus pointed out to the Pharisees; see note on Matthew 23:23)……
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November 6, 2007 at 2:47 pm
Eden Hadassah said
LOL:
It seems that you kept putting the same messages up?
As far as tithing goes, I find it interesting that it has come down to in our times to 10%. (should we tithe on the gross or on the net?) 10%, 20%, over and above a love offering…I have heard it all!
Yeshua says “Give to Cesaer what is Cesaers, and Give to God what is God’s.” How would you define what belongs to God?
The things that belong to God are the things that he has made. The gold is his, the silver is his, and all living things are his. The gold is his until someone foreign puts their face on it. The same goes for the silver. Other wise it would defile the temple.
Here is a principle that I would love to see practiced among christians that believe in tithing…
A portion of the first fruits was to be dedicated to God, right? So where did it go? When ever someone brought their tithe, they would bring it into the towns, make a feast, dedicate it to the Lord, and eat it in His presence! If a person was very prosperous, and there was too many animals and grain, they were to sell it, carry the money to town, and there purchase animals and grains and fruits and again, gather with everyone, prepare it and eat it in the presence of the Lord.
Now, if you want to tithe, I suggest that you begin to plant your crops, gather your chickens and other clean animals, and when the time comes for harvest, present your gift to the food shelters and those who feed the poor. Prepare a great feast and invite all to come. Then you will be biblically tithing! Eat it with joy and thanksgiving.
Most people do not know how to grow food. Nor do many know how to really share with God’s people who are in need.
As far as the poor not owning their own fields and being day laborers, even the Lord made provision for them. The Lord told those who did have fields not to harvest to the edges, so that the poor among their brothers may come and glean the fields. In this gleaning, it is possible for even the poor to take a portion of what they have gleaned and give it as a tithe, sharing joyfully in what God has provided for them as well. -
November 6, 2007 at 2:53 pm
Eden Hadassah said
Another strange thing that I heard about tithing from a pastor on “god tv” (heretical channel on steriods!):
This pastor on the god tv beg-a-thon said that money has no DNA, and when you pray, you put DNA into the money! My husband and I never laughed so hard in all our lives! Can seed-faith ministry sink any lower? -
November 6, 2007 at 6:01 pm
Easy G (G²) said
Most likely, the reason for the multiple posts is that that when someone posts, the posts often don’t appear at all until much later in the day.
That all aside, I thought the information was pretty solid. If one wants more information, found the site where the majority of the arguments come from:
http://www.generousgiving.org/page.asp?sec=43&page=45
Also, to add on to what was said by LOL, I think that Tithing is not evil unless it is presented to be a requirement for Christians.
There is a ditch on both sides of the road. There are many who would impose tithing on the church (ditch on the right) – though if you are reformed – your theology gives you some basis for that – on the other hand, there seem to be folks who do not want to be asked to “give as they are blessed,” or to support missionaries, pastors, and good works(ditch on the left) – each of which are based on NT scripture.
I like both to tithe and to give additionally as the Lord leads – and I think that it as wrong to oppose tithing as to insist upon it. It can be a helpful and thoughtful beginning to a good stewardship of all of our possesions. It’d be noteworthy to mention, for those who fear tithing, that All helpful practices may become legalistic. Just because something has been applied legalistically, does not mean it should be abandoned – or the church could believe almost nothing. virtually everything in the Bible has been misused – should pur goal not be that of using it correctly?
Every scripture is God-breathed and useful and the scriptures about tithing teach proportional giving.
It is incorrect to say that Christians are required to tithe. It is equally incorrect to say that Christians are forbidden to tithe. Tithing is a free choice that some make to support the their church.
I think that there is too much time spent on defending/attacking the tithe – rather than simply encouraging folks to honestly submit their whole lives to God and give as the Spirit moves.
I would also add that we may use of OT law to teach valid principles – in this case proportional giving with tithing. We use the story of Jonathan and David to teach about friendship – is that wrong? We use the story of Jonah to teach that God cares about other nations – is that wrong?
Tithing does teach “proportionality” – “to give as you are blessed” – and “Regularity”, as in consistency in giving. And That is a helpful aspect to the practice.
Here’s something from another article that may aid the discussion:
Many believers give their tenth and never even consider that they could (and perhaps should) be giving even more. Actually, to demand a tenth from all believers is disobedience to the principles set down in 2 Corinthians 8:12-15 because the tithe may become an unequal yoke. By that I mean it is a burden to some, and a limitation to greater giving by others according to the principles of equality and proportionate grace giving (1 Cor. 16:1-2). Please note the following:
(1) Giving ten percent for one man might be considered “sowing sparingly” if he was giving proportionately.
(2) Giving ten percent for another could be considered “sowing bountifully,” if he was giving proportionately.
(3) Giving ten percent for some would be giving beyond their ability and could be considered sacrificial giving, giving “according to what they do not have” (cf. 2 Cor. 8:12; 9:6).
(4) In essence this means some are being eased of their responsibilities because of their abundance and others afflicted by the tithe compulsion because of their lack (2 Cor. 8:13).
(5) Proportionate grace giving in the New Testament eliminates this and brings about what Paul calls “equality” (2 Cor. 8:14-15). See the illustration below concerning proportionate giving.
(6) This means to be a good steward of the resources God supplies, the more prosperous believers give more out of their abundance, not just in dollars but in the percentage (20, 30 percent and even more), while those with less give a smaller percent, one determined out of their walk with the Lord. They may decide to give sacrificially as did the Macedonians, but it should be the product of the work of the Spirit of God and not the legal demands of a church that insists on the tithe. Indeed, the tithe is an unequal yoke. Think about it. If you tithe, you may be sowing sparingly.
Proportionate GivingThe big question is, what does it mean to give proportionately? How does one determine how much (what percent) to give? It is easy enough to figure ten percent of something, but how much is “as he purposes in his heart,” or “as he has been prospered,” or “may prosper,” or “if there is a readiness it is acceptable according to what a man has …” How much is that?
(1) It is not a specific amount, or a certain percent, but a proportion based on what one has, one’s own needs, and on the needs of others, including the work of Christ or the ministry of the local church.
(2) Those who have little may give the little they are able (2 Cor. 8:2-3).
(3) Those who have nothing, if there is a readiness, are not expected to give anything (2 Cor. 8:12).
(4) Those who have less than enough (genuine needs) are to receive from those who have more than enough so there is a balancing out, a kind of equality (2 Cor. 8:13-15). This is not socialism or communism which is coercive and seeks for a total equality that does away with any variations in society based on individual differences in hard work, in giftedness, and personal incentive (cf. 1 Tim. 6:17f).
(5) God is not asking those who have plenty to become poor or burdened that others may be made rich (2 Cor. 8:13). The equality envisioned here through proportionate giving is twofold: (a) It involves aid to help people through a condition of need until they are able to get on their feet financially by working (Eph. 4:28; 2 Thess. 3:10-15). We do not give so others can live in ease or have the same standard of living as everyone else. (b) This creates an equality in the sense that those with less give proportionately less and those with more give proportionately more and are able to carry more of the load in giving.
(6) Those who have an abundance are to be rich in good works; they are to use their abundance liberally in the cause of Christ (2 Cor. 8:14; 1 Tim. 5:17-18).
(7) Increased prosperity should not result in a higher and higher standard of living, or wasteful spending, but in an increase in giving, not only in the amount but in the percent given. If believers today were committed to proportionate giving, many would be giving far in excess of ten percent. Statistics show, however, that most believers give no more than 3-5 percent.
Definition of Proportionate GivingProportionate giving is giving in proportion to God’s blessing, as a steward who wants to invest his life in heavenly treasure. Proportionate giving does not mean just giving more, but giving a greater proportion of one’s income—a greater percentage invested in God’s work.
In Proportionate giving:
(1) OUR MOTIVE for giving is God’s spiritual blessing, to increase fruitfulness and bring glory to God (2 Cor. 9:8-15).
(2) OUR MEASURE for giving is God’s material blessing (1 Cor. 16:2).
Illustration of Proportionate GivingBeliever A has an income of $20,000 per year and he gives ten percent which is $2,000. Believer B has an income of $50,000 per year and he gives ten percent which is $5,000. Believer B has given $3,000 more per year but this is not proportionately more because Believer A has $18,000 left to live on and Believer B still has $45,000 left, over twice as much. Believer B could give 20 percent ($10,000) and still have $40,000 left to live on which is still over twice as much as Believer A. Believer B would then be giving not only more, but proportionately more as well.
Promises for the Generous Proportionate GiverLuke 16:10-11: Generally, God does not entrust more wealth to us to manage until we prove faithful with what we have now.
Second Corinthians 9:8-11: Our giving will never be our lack; God will not only resupply what we have given, but He will increase our giving capacity as we give abundantly. The goal here is not increased personal wealth, but greater giving” ( http://www.bible.org/topic.php?topic_id=34 )
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November 6, 2007 at 8:32 pm
Mike (Johnson) said
I am no financial guru but I wonder how many of you that tithe have any credit cards with unpaid balances. How many of you have actually made arrangements to ensure that your credit cards will be paid in full if God forbid you fell ill or were involved in a tragic accident?
Today, America is drowning in debt. But that will not stop pastors from shamelessly asking for 10% even advocating that you take it from your credit card if necessary. Lets not forget that a balance on any credit card is a debt that you owe someone (in this case, it is a bank). Often times the banks recover their bad debt by raising interest charges on their remaining paying customers.
So how happy do you think the lord will be to see that you dutifully gave him 10% but lackadaisically left your remaining debt for others to pick up.
My point is…give from the heart and give wisely. Do not get caught up in the percentages. Any pastor who is relying on the 10% from the congregation to get his church running was probably not called in the first place.
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November 6, 2007 at 11:52 pm
healtheland said
Mike (Johnson): “Any pastor who is relying on the 10% from the congregation to get his church running was probably not called in the first place.” How true! Incidentally, pastors are exploiting the debt issue, actually playing it to their advantage. They claim that the reason why you are in debt is because you are not tithing and as a result there is a curse on your finances. Some go as far as to directly blaspheme by claiming that God is cursing your finances because you are not obeying Him, others blaspheme indirectly by claiming that your disobedience by not tithing opens a door for Satan to afflict your finances because the protective hedge that God had over your finances is lifted.
They juxtapose that with all of their testimonies about how a person was about to lose their marriage, health, job, home, business, etc. while they were “living in disobedience and not taking their increase to the storehouse”, but once they began to tithe they began to be blessed beyond their wildest dreams! Some people teach this because they honestly do not know any better, but others are just going to do a belly flop into the lake of fire.
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November 7, 2007 at 12:34 pm
Eden Hadassah said
I do not have credit cards, nor do I tithe at present. Right now my husband and I are in the process of transitioning from the life and culture we have always known, to living physically and financially in a new way. We repented of our lifestyles and of being a part of a worldly economic system about four years ago. The Lord had been speaking to me for most of my spiritual life about false prophecy, idolatry, molech and baal, but I didn’t understand why or what that had to do with the world I lived in. Then my husband and I, four years ago bought the series “Rich Dad Poor Dad”, and we began to restructure our lives for more financial prosperity and generosity. From the time we got the Rich Dad series for about three weeks, we did all the research, saw biblical principles at work, and then just as we were learning about how the market worked, economics and such, the Lord, brought back all the things he taught me at first! All the scriptures made sense to us, and I understood what he had been showing me for so long. Then while we were watching one of the “financial channels” like Bloomburg Tv, all the sudden I saw the “bull!” My heart was struck with panic for a moment. We were so close to making an investment, and when he showed us that the world financial market was nothing more then the worship of Molech and Baal, I went into this state of denial. It took over a year of researching scriptures, questioning and testing the message he was giving me, and even thinking that I must be out of my mind. But He was patient with me, and showed me more. The more I argued with him and tried to refute it with Him, the more he showed me it was true. I repented. And then repented some more. It shattered everything that I thought was right in the christian world. He began to show me the injustice, the slavery and murderous spirit that is at work in the financial world. So a part of our repentance involves turning from our sins and following after Yeshua. To live as he lived. The Lord has been training us, and has led us to learn how to work the land, build homes, create waterways and wells, how to grow food and store it, and how to live sustainable with out having to use the same types of energy. It has been a process and a “weaning” for my younger children, who up till four years ago believed us when we said they have to “shine out like stars” as christians, go to college and make lots of money and then you can feed the poor and help others. We have had to live our repentance, and with grace, slowly work towards leaving this conventional way of life for a life that is totally given over to the Lord. We have a vision to prepare a place for those who also share this vision. We have the desire to provide food, clothing, and other things for the family of God in their ministries, and to teach them how to utilize their land and homes. There may come a time when the economic system collapses, and if it does, a lot of people are going to need to be ministered to, and the Lord has set it in our hearts to prepare for these coming times, as well as living to serve him (ultimately) and not the pagan bull god economic system that is in place. We will be working, but not for wages in the conventional sense. It is not a vow of poverty, but I guess in the world, we would “look” poor, not having any of the amenities that we have become accustom to. Our vision goes beyond what is here in place right now, and works towards the beauty of a simple life that welcomes fellowship, hospitality and the nurishing of souls. We have learned the principles of alternative building and were a part of a huge building project. It was very cool to be a part of this learning. We helped build a 3,000 square foot home made of strawbale. (Not my first choice of natural building) We learned how to make plaster from the earth, and how to sculpt a fireplace. This was just one place that we worked on. I have worked on a farm to learn how to care for cows, my husband is learning how to build natural air filtration systems in homes that clean the air naturally, creating coolness in the summer and warmth in the winter. There are so many great things out there that are simple and beautiful, and for so long, I traded a life of accountability in how I lived, for a life that could blame others if the product was defective or caused harm to others. Christians don’t know how to live apart from this system that has been created for us. Every step we take, we realize how paralysed the system makes people. It makes them feeble, worried, filled with fear of the future, tired and stressed out. It is a heavy burden. But this life, which we are discovering, is filled with great peace both inside and out. We found peace when we stopped fighting God. There has been a deep satisfaction and thankfulness for the food that we are learning to grow. It goes beyond the satisfaction of that paycheck at the end of the week. Everyone works so hard, but what are they working for? At this point, when we watch the news and hear about the price of oil going up, or the economy wabbling on the brink of ruin, we sit back with no worries at all. Christians can say that they have that peace while working a conventional job, and know that God will provide…but I wonder if that faith has to do with the fact that there are others that God is putting in place to minister to their needs when the “well runs dry”, so to speak.
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December 8, 2007 at 11:30 am
Angie said
Eden Hadassah,
When folks like you and your husband can wake up to the games that these pimps play, you just laugh. I do the same. However the ones who are lost, and many of us have been there are gullible to it and send in their life savings, rent or mortgage payments, etc just to be ‘blessed’. Their fear and I remember the feeling not too long ago is that if you don’t tithe or give to the mand of gawd, you are ‘cursed’ by Him. Someday, some folks will wake up to this prosperity gospel, a gospel mess and will join us in laughter.
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February 15, 2008 at 11:43 pm
Helene said
I wonder… When God praised Job, as Satan accused him, did God mention Job’s tithing? I have not seen it, and Job was “perfect”.
I was just wondering because I had never seen tithing put in the way as when someone said that the landowners of Israel were the ones expected to tithe. I had never realized that the bible does not mention tithing being required by servants and the like.
I do recall, however that “tithing” is not one of the things mentioned of Job as one of the things that makes him “perfect” in God’s eyes. “Upright and esheweth evil” is what I saw.
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October 6, 2009 at 11:17 am
Doc said
I see a lot of John Hagee employees spending time defending tithing here. Sad. Did Jesus walk with a hat and collect from people? NO, he walked with the word of GOD and helped as many as he could. Can someone tell me what John Hagee’s $7 million Cessna Citation model 650, including full flight crew, costing over $1 million to maintain a year is helping people who have no food, or medicine? I mean, if he really wanted to help people why not fly business class? Cost a lot less wouldn’t it?
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October 21, 2009 at 5:41 pm
GeoM said
That response shows a little less than understanding. He does not need anyone to defend himself. The plane helps him have a more intense schedule to answer all of the demands he has for appearances. You know, you do not even realize that when Pastor Hagee prays, he prays for you and all of his critics as well as his congregation. Do you pray benevolently for him?
If you noticed, Judas kept the treasury for the disciples. So, they did have money collected.
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December 14, 2009 at 8:11 pm
Beth said
Jesus and his disciples shared everything and practiced economic communism, they didn’t pass a hat, everyone was equal when it came to financial prosperity and possessions.
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October 10, 2009 at 3:39 am
Magda Kopp said
Tithing was under the law of Moses. After Jesus’ resurrection christians do not live under the law any longer. In the New Testament it is about Grace giving. Give what you have and give with a cheerful heart. Nowhere in the New Testament is Jesus talking abouth tithing. Prosperity teachers keep referring to the old testament. We must give but nowhere does it say 10%. In any case if you only give 10% you are actually robbing God.
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October 12, 2009 at 11:49 am
Dee said
All my life I have listened to preachers requiring one to tithe.
And one after another, they have been caught with their hands in the cookie jar.
The use of credit cards, religious trinkets, etc. has been used to get
believers to send money to these hypocrites.
Just remember, Jesus threw the money changers out of the temple!
Do not feel guilty not to tithe. There is no pricetag to the pearly gates.
Just make sure your money goes to an honest organization.
I have given over the years to the Salvation Army, Red Cross, Mother Theresa
& the likes, with none to the TV & bigtime evangelists.
This forum has mentioned John Hagee. What about Jimmy Swagart, Jim Jones, Jim Baker,
& Benny Hinn to name a few more? And maybe throw in a couple of female
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December 25, 2009 at 11:52 pm
Kent said
I can say this after hearing some comments made by John Hagee he is certainly says some questionable things, I left a church some time back had some real issues, I made a decision and here is my question would you fix the brakes on your car or risk taking your own life and wind up in a body bag because someone who wants to control you by telling you to give them the money?
I had known a issue where I live I prayed and fixed mine and I heard a real song and dance, and I was told by the Lord if you will ” Leave Fantasy Island ! ” That Minister has a personality disorder ( unnamed ) wants to control people, I was told that by 2 ministers one everyone knows on TV and the other by my pastor, ( I am leaving out things here for security reasons ) I pray and hope that soon they will discover what God really has for me, and I have my own life to live and pray that that minister will come to admit he has some issues that a Phyachrist ( sic ) and some medication will help his mental illness.
also FYI Pathological Liars are deceived and that they have some mental challenges the anti-christ is a narcissist also there is some info you can google search.
Anti- Christ
Narcissitic Personality Disorder
Selfishness
Matt 24:24 <—– Bible Verse
September 7th, 2007 at 11:30 pm eI personally am boycotting TBN and the rest of the heretics. I was a member JOhn Hagee’s church in San Antonio for many years. I hung on his every word and would never think a man of God would lie, but he did. I was a single mom with three abused kids and on welfare and I was told to tithe and God would bless me. All these years later I still live in my 2 bedroom apartment that my children and I fled to for safety. We even had the electricity turned off several times because I tithed instead of paid my bills. When I finally realized I had been fleeced for years, I told my cell leaders and they advised me that I was cursing my kids and I had lost my salvation. I had a car accident two years ago and could no longer afford to tithe because I had started making payments on a used car, since mine was totaled. I was on my knees begging God to forgive me for not tithing when he led me to Malachi 3 which is addressed to the Priests of that day NOT the people of Israel.