Jesus Christ Is Lord

That every knee should bow and every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father!

Juanita Bynum, Bishop Thomas Weeks, TD Jakes, Noel Jones, Tommy Tenney: Their True Demonic Roots

Posted by Job on May 11, 2007

I must ask: have you accepted Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior? If not, follow this link The Three Step Salvation Plan

Read: When They Pierced His Side: The Blood And Water Of Jesus Christ

Update: with their denying Matthew 28: 19 (http://bible.cc/matthew/28-19.htm) see who Oneness Pentecostals are walking in agreement with and how here: Why Do Mormons, Jehovah’s Witnesses, And Oneness Pentecostals Agree? Also, see what they will never understand What Mormons, Jehovah’s Witnesses, Jews, Muslims, and Oneness Pentecostals Don’t Understand Also see TBN Says The Oneness Pentecostal Jesus Only Cult Was Founded In 1913

See also: The Trinity As Explained By A Black Guy (Fans Of Juanita Bynum, TD Jakes, Noel Jones And Other Heretics Pay Attention!)

This link shows exactly how long this heresy has been going on. So, why are you following and defending these rebels against the faith? Of course, some of you are going to certainly use this information to deny Luke 3:22 and claim that the early church was unitarian, but hey this exercise is for the sake of people who are after the Truth so that they might be converted by it. You folks with hardened hearts who either will not acknowledge the truth, and those of you who refuse to heed James 4:4, Psalm 1:1, and Amos 3:3 and will not separate yourselves from those who reject Truth, well you will not be able to say that you were not warned. Also you Oneness heretics, another name for your cult is sabellianism. Please realize that this anti – Christ demon has been trying to infect the church since the beginning, and its most recent “manifestation” was R. E. M cAlister and John G. Schaepe claiming that people should be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ only, that ‘The words Father, Son, and Holy Ghost were never used in Christian baptism.” Of course these guys were demon – possessed, with the evidence being that their words were in direct contradiction to the words of Jesus Christ in scripture, see Matthew 28:19. (Interesting enough, it was ROMAN CATHOLICS who began the practice of only baptizing in the Name of Jesus Christ and violating Matthew 28:19). Now don’t you go claiming that the pagan Romans changed that verse, because it is in the King James Version, and most of you Oneness Pentecostals claim that the King James Version is the only true version, just like the Jehovah’s Witnesses and the Mormons.

Modalism and Church History

 Technically termed: modalistic monarchianism 1 The first main proponent of modalism (that we know of) was Noetus of Smyrna (c. A.D. 190; cf. Hippolytus Against the Heresy of One Noetus 7, in ANF, vol. 5). Additionally, two noted leaders of the movement included Praxeas (cf. Tertullian Against Praxeas, in ANF, vol. 3), and a Libyan priest named Sabellius, who came to Rome toward the end of Zephyrinus’s reign (A.D. 198-217; cf. J. N. D. Kelly, Early Christian Doctrines, 121). Hence, modalism was also called Sabellianism. Most of what we know of Sabellius is contained in the polemic writings of church Fathers. Sabellius was rightly condemned as a heretic (c. A.D. 220) by the Roman bishop, Callistus. And subsequently, Sabellius and his teachings were condemned by bishop Dionysius (c. A.D. in 263).2

As seen, historically, there were two forms of monarchianism: modalistic 3 and the less popular form, dynamic. Dynamic monarchianism, also called (more appropriately) adoptionism, held to the idea that God merely “adopted” Jesus as His Son (at His baptism), after which He worked miracles without becoming divine. However, some later adoptionists did teach that He became deity (in some sense) at His baptism. Accordingly, the early Christian church quickly condemned dynamic monarchianism and the ones propagating it (e.g., Theodotus of Byzantine [c. A.D. 190; cf. Hippolytus “The Heresy of Theodotus,” in The Refutation of All Heresies 7.23, in ANF, vol. 5]; Paul of Samosata [c. A.D. 268; cf. Eusebius History of the Church, 7.27]). Because of this radical denial of the full deity of Christ, dynamic monarchianism never really gained popularity and eventually fizzled out. Regardless of theological variations, both systems, dynamic and modalistic, bred the same end-result: unitarianism.

As noted above, modalistic monarchianism was also called Sabellianism. Sabellius’ arguments for modalism were much more sophisticated and convincing than that of his predecessors. By way of implication, some would accuse the early modalists of teaching that the Father suffered and died on the cross. For this reason, early modalism was also known called patripassianism, meaning in Latin, “father to suffer.” Hence, Tertullian (c. A.D. 213) says of Praxeas:

He maintains that there is one only Lord, the Almighty Creator of the world, in order that out of this doctrine of the unity he may fabricate a heresy. He says that the Father Himself came down into the Virgin, was Himself born of her, Himself suffered, indeed was Himself Jesus Christ (Tertullian Against Praxeas 1, in ANF, vol. 3.).

In addition, early modalism (esp. Sabellius) held to what is known as successive modalism. That is, the modes were said to have been successive: starting with the mode of the Father for creation, then the Son for the task of redemption, and after, the Holy Spirit for regeneration. Patristic authority Philip Schaff explains:

Sabellius embraces the Holy Spirit in his speculation, and reaches a trinity, not a simultaneous trinity of essence, however, but only a successive trinity of revelation. He starts from a distinction of the monad and the triad in the divine nature. His fundamental thought is, that the unity of God, without distinction in itself, unfolds or extends itself in the course of the world’s development in three different forms and periods of revelation and, after the completion of redemption, returns into unity. The Father reveals himself in the giving of the law or the Old Testament economy (not in the creation also, which in his view precedes the trinitarian revelation); the Son, in the incarnation; the Holy Ghost, in inspiration. The revelation of the Son ends with the ascension; the revelation of the Spirit goes on in regeneration and sanctification. . . . (Philip Schaff, “The Development of Catholic Theology in Conflict with Heresy,” 12.152, in History of the Christian Church, vol. 2, 3rd ed. [1890; reprint, Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1958]; emphasis added). 

Nevertheless, contrary to Sabellius and successive modalism is modern modalism. Today most, not all (e.g., The Way International) Oneness teachers believe that God can project all of His manifestations or modes simultaneously. For instance, at the baptism of Jesus (Matt. 3:13-17), we observe all three Persons of the Trinity involved in this occasion. Still, no matter how plain and natural the text is, Oneness teachers roll over and say, ‘God is omnipresent, hence, He can exist simultaneously.’

 However, if simultaneous modalism were true, why do we find verse after verse that clearly denotes distinction between the three Persons (e.g., Luke 10:21-22; John 1:1; 6:37-40; 2 Cor. 13:14)? Notwithstanding the name of their unitarian deity, whether the “Father” as in early modalism or “Jesus” as in modern Oneness, one point is firmly agreed among all Oneness believers: God is unipersonal and has not revealed Himself in three distinct coequal coeternal coexistent Persons or Selves.

To reiterate, the modalistic God exists as a unipersonal deity (i.e., one Person). And this deity wears different masks in time according to his role. In other words, the unipersonal, unitarian deity of modalism was Father in creation; Son in redemption and Holy Spirit in regeneration. So according to modalism, there are not three distinct Persons in the Godhead, but rather one Person (named Jesus) that plays different roles.

Modalism rejects that nature of God the Father, the deity of Jesus Christ, and the personality of the Holy Spirit. The God of modalism is an invisible monad that only temporally appears to be the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit when in fact according to the modalist, there is really only one single Person behind the masks.

Early modalism taught that the one Person behind the masks was the Father contrary to modern modalism, which teaches that the one Person behind the masks of Father Son and Holy Spirit is Jesus. Thus, Jesus is the “Father,” “Son” and “Holy Spirit.”


Modalism: Apostolic Doctrine?

Oneness teachers assert that modalism was the teaching of the apostles from the start. However as demonstrated, in my other articles on Oneness theology, this assertion is clearly antithetical to what the apostles taught.

 

Question: If modalism was the doctrine the apostles, then why was it condemned
universally
by early church Fathers and at ecclesiastical councils?

 

Example: Theodotus (the first known dynamic monarchianist;) was excommunicated by Victor the bishop of Rome in around A.D. 190. Noetus of Smyrna (the first known modalist) was condemned by Hippolytus (cf. nn. 2 and 22 above) and by the presbyters in Smyrna (cf. Eusebius History of the Church, 7.27). Praxeas was marked as a heretic by Tertullian. Paul of Samosata was condemned at the Third Council of Antioch (A.D. 268; cf. n. 3 above). Dionysius bishop of Alexandria (c. A.D. 261) vehemently condemned Sabellius and his unipersonal theology (cf. Athanasius De Sententia Dionysii, ed. Philip Schaff, in Nicene and Post Nicene Fathers [hereafter NPNF], vol. 4, 2nd series [Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1953]). Dionysius bishop of Rome (c. A.D. 262) condemned Sabellius and wrote a brilliant polemic against him and his theology (cf. Dionysius of Rome Against the Sabellians, in ANF, vol. 7). Gregory Thaumaturgus (c. A.D. 260) speaks out against Sabellius’ unipersonal idea of God explaining that

some treat the Holy Trinity in an awful manner, when they confidently assert that there are not three persons, and introduce (the idea of) a person devoid of subsistence. Wherefore we clear ourselves of Sabellius, who says that the Father and the Son are the same [Person]. . . . (Gregory Thaumaturgus A Sectional Confession of Faith 7, in ANF, vol. 6; emphasis added).

“We neither separate the Holy Trinity like some,” Cyril of Jerusalem (c. A.D. 348) asserts, “nor do we as Sabellius work confusion [into it]” (Cyril of Jerusalem Catechetical Lectures 16.4, in NPNF, vol. 7, 2nd series). Since modalism views God as unipersonal, Basil the Great (c. A.D. 375) says that Sabellianism is Judaism imported into the preaching of the Gospel under the guise of Christianity. . . .” (Basil the Great “To the notables of Neocaesarea,” in Letter 210, in NPNF; vol. 8, 2nd series). The early church, to be sure, envisaged God as Tri-Personal. Ignatius of Antioch (c. A.D. 107) differentiates between the Father and “God the Word, the only-begotten Son”:

Jesus Christ, who was with the Father before the beginning of time, and in the end was revealed. . . . He, being begotten by the Father before the beginning of time, was God the Word, the only-begotten Son, and remains the same for ever. . . . (Ignatius Letter to the Magnesians 6, in ANF, vol. 1; emphasis added).

Hence, the church Fathers saw modalism (and all forms of monarchianism) as a non-Christian doctrine that rejected Christ. Moreover, every important Christian council and creed throughout church history was implicitly or explicitly Trinitarian—not Oneness.  

 

 

Church Fathers

Attestation of early church Fathers give us enormous insight as to what the early church practiced and believed. It is not that their statements were theopneustos (i.e., God-breathed) nor did they think that they had apostolic authority. Example, Ignatius, bishop of Antioch (c. 105) writes: “I do not, as Peter and Paul, issue commandments to you. They were apostles.”4

However, on essential doctrines they held to the common rule of faith of the church. Many were martyred for the very doctrines that certainly not the premier attraction for the church today. The point is, the early church took seriously the teachings of the apostles of Jesus Christ. We should not be surprised then, we read how they refuted and fought valiantly against the men who attacked the very essence of God by misrepresenting Him.

Modalism denies the nature of God by asserting that God is a unipersonal monad. Modalism denies the deity of the Person Jesus Christ by asserting that Jesus’ life had a beginning--hence, the Person of the Son was not eternal; thus “another” Jesus (cf. 2: Cor. 12:4ff). It also denies that the Person of the Father by asserting that Jesus IS the Father Himself (“another” Father). And it denies the Person of the Holy Spirit by asserting that He is merely a temporary manifestation of the unitarian deity named Jesus.5 So, of course this doctrine, that denies the very nature of God, was aggressively resisted as a “doctrine of demons” (cf. 1 Tim. 4:1) by the church Fathers.

The citations below are but a few of the abundance of references of early church Fathers speaking out against the modalistic heresy:


Justin Martyr
(c. A.D. 160):

Those persons who declare that the Son is the Father are proved neither to have become acquainted with the Father, nor to know that the Father of the universe has a Son.6


Hippolytus
(c. A.D. 205):

If, again, Noetus alleges Christ’s own words when he said, “I and the Father are one,” let him attend to the fact and understand that He did not say, “I and the Father am one, but are one.” For the word “are” is not said of one person. Rather, it refers to two persons, but one power. Christ has Himself made this clear, when He spoke to His Father concerning the disciples: “The glory which you gave me I have given them that they mat be one.7

There has appeared one Noetus by name; by birth, a native of Smyrna. This person introduce a heresy from the tenets of Heraclitus8

 

Tertullian (c. A.D. 213):

Jesus commands them to baptize into the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit- not into a unipersonal God9

“The devil has rivaled and resisted the truth in various ways…. Praxes maintains that there is only one Lord, the Almighty Creator of the world. He says this in order that out of this unity he may fabricate a heresy. He says that the Father Himself came down into the virgin, was Himself born of her, Himself suffered, and indeed was Himself Jesus Christ10

“The devil is himself a liar from the beginning, and so is whomever he instigates in his own way, such as Praxes. For Praxes was the first to import into Rome from Asia this kind of heretical depravity11

This heresy supposes itself to possess the pure truth, in thinking tat one cannot believe in only one God in any other way than by saying that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are the very selfsame Person12

 

Novatian (c. A.D. 235):

Why do they shrink from being associated with the boldness of Sabellius, who says that Christ is the Father?13

Because it is so very clear that Christ is declared in the Scriptures to be God, many heretics—moved by the magnitude and truth of this divinity –exaggerate His honors above measure. And they have dared to declare or to think that He is not the Son, but the God the Father Himself14

 

Defending the Trinity, Gregory Thaumaturgus (the Wonder-worker; c. A.D. 260) speaks of the unipersonal God of Sabellius:  

But some treat the Holy Trinity in an awful manner, when they confidently assert that there are not three persons, and introduce (the idea of) a person devoid of subsistence. Wherefore we clear ourselves of Sabellius, who says that the Father and the Son are the same [Person] . . . We forswear this, because we believe that three persons-namely, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit-are declared to possess the one Godhead: for the one divinity showing itself forth according to nature in the Trinity establishes the oneness of the nature. . . . (Gregory Thaumaturgus A Sectional Confession of Faith 7, in ANF, vol. 6; emphasis added).

 

Dionysius of Rome (c. A.D. 265):

Sabellius . . . blasphemes in saying that the Son Himself is the Father and vice versa. 15

 

In a letter to Dionysius of Rome Dionysius of Alexandria expresses precisely his views on the Trinity (which was solidly orthodox) and shows that he did not in any way separate the Persons of the Holy Trinity:

 Neither, indeed, as though He had not brought forth these things, did God afterwards beget the Son, but because the Son has existence not flora Himself, but from the Father. . . . Being the brightness of the eternal Light, He Himself also is absolutely eternal. Since, therefore, the Father is eternal, the Son also is eternal, Light of Light. . . . But both are, and always are. . . Moreover, the Son alone, always co-existing with the Father, and filled with Him who is, Himself also is, since He is of the Father. . . .

 

I have also proved the falsehood of the charge which they [the Sabellians] bring against me-to wit, that I do not maintain that Christ is consubstantial with God. For although I say that I have never either found or read this word [i.e., homoousios] in the sacred Scriptures, yet other reasonings, which I immediately subjoined, are in no wise discrepant from this view, because I brought forward as an illustration human offspring, which assuredly is of the same kind as the begetter; and I said that parents are absolutely distinguished from their children by the fact alone that they themselves are not their children, or that it would assuredly be a matter of necessity that there would neither be parents nor children. . . .

But they are ignorant that neither the Father, in that He is Father, can be separated from the Son, for that name is the evident ground of coherence and conjunction; nor can the Son be separated from the Father, for this word Father indicates association between them. And there is, moreover, evident a Spirit who can neither be disjoined from Him who sends, nor from Him who brings Him. How, then, should I who use such names think that these are absolutely divided and separated the one from the other?. . .

 

Thus, indeed, we expand the indivisible Unity into a Trinity; and again we contract the Trinity, which cannot be diminished, into a Unity. . . .

In the beginning was the Word. But that was not the Word which produced the Word. For “the Word was with God.” The Lord is Wisdom; it was not therefore Wisdom that produced Wisdom; for “I was that” says He, “wherein He delighted Christ is truth; but “blessed,” says He, “is the God of truth” Life is begotten of life in the same way as the river has flowed forth from the spring, and the brilliant light is ignited from the inextinguishable light. . . . If, from the fact that there are three hypostases, they say that they are divided, there are three whether they like it or no, or else let them get rid of the divine Trinity altogether. . . . For on this account after the Unity there is also the most divine Trinity. . . .

In accordance with all these things, the: form, moreover, and rule being received from the elders who have lived before us, we also, with a voice in accordance with them, will both acquit ourselves of thanks to you, and of the letter which we are now writing. And to God the Father, and His Son our Lord Jesus Christ, with the Holy Spirit, be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen (Dionysius Epistle to the Bishop of Rome 4, “Extant Fragments,” in The Works of Dionysius, in ANF, vol. 6; emphasis added).

Methodius (c. A.D. 290):

They have gone astray with regard to one of thee three Persons of the Trinity. For example, some say, like Sabellius, that the Almighty Person of the Father Himself suffered16

 

Cyril of Jerusalem (c. A.D. 348), in his Catechetical Lectures, refers to the Trinitarian baptismal formula. After which explains that the Trinity is not three separate Gods (against Marcion) nor is the Trinity divided or confusion worked into it (against Sabellius):

 

For the Only-begotten Son of God said plainly to the Apostles, Go ye, and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them into the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. Our hope is in Father, and Son, and Holy Ghost. We preach not three Gods; let the Marcionites be silenced; but with the Holy Ghost through One Son, we preach One God. . . . We neither separate the Holy Trinity, like some; nor do we as Sabellius work confusion [into it] (Cyril of Jerusalem Catechetical Lectures 16.4, in NPNF; vol. 7, 2nd series; emphasis added).


Of course, these above are only but a few of the overwhelming abundance of clear statements of church Fathers speaking out against the heresy of modalism; a doctrine that denied Christ as eternal God in the flesh. The early church did not quietly sit back supinely while heresy was being pervaded. They saw modalism as a heresy that attacked the very essence of God Himself.


Church Councils

We also find that modalism was universally condemned at various church councils:

  • At the second Council of Smyrna, Noetus was excommunicated as a heretic.

  • Sabellius was excommunicated by Bishop Callistus and his teachings were condemned at a council at Rome under bishop Dionysius in . A.D. 262 (go here to read Dionysius’ letter Against the Sabellians)

  • Bishop Damascus condemned Sabellius and his teachings in c. A.D. 380.

  • The Council of Constantinople safeguarded the doctrine of the Trinity and condemned modalism sharply in A.D. 381.


Taking a strong stance for Trinitarianism, in 1916 at the Assemblies of God General Council held in St. Louis, 156 AG ministers were expelled for holding to Oneness teaching. Whence modern Oneness movements begin.

Today more that ever, Christian leaders must stand up against heresy. Why keep silent? We should not be afraid of what people think, only about what God thinks. Modalism attacks Jesus Christ.

They say they glorify Him but how can they when modalism teaches that Jesus Christ is NOT eternal, His life started in Bethlehem.

They say, they glorify Him but so do the Mormons and Jehovah’s Witnesses! Modalism rips the heart out of Christianity it denies Christ by misrepresenting Him.

To be sure, modalism is another Jesus, another Gospel, and another Spirit. There is only one true God. The Apostle John was very concern as to the beliefs and teachings of Jesus Christ; as he gives this warning:.

Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father; the one who confesses the Son has the Father also (John 2:2)

 

Notes

 

1, Monarchism comes from the Greek word: “single principle.”

2, cf. J. N. D. Kelly, Early Christian Doctrines (Harper Collins Publisher, San Francisco, CA), 119-126; Robert Morey, The Trinity, Evidence and Issues (Word Bible Publishers, Iowa Falls, IA), 511.

3, Also called: Sabellianism named after Sabellius and patripassianism; due to the implication: the Father as the Son suffered on the cross.

4, The Anti-Nicene Fathers, vol. 1:75.

5, Early modalism taught that the “Father” was the name of the unitarian deity, whereas modern modalism teaches it is “Jesus.” Either way the doctrinal out come is the same: God does not exist in three distinct, coequal, coeternal, and coexistent Persons. The modalistic God is a monad.

6, The Anti-Nicene Fathers, vol. 1.184.

7, Ibid., vol. 5.226; cf. Hippolytus, Against Noetus.

8, Ibid., vol. 5.125; cf. Refutation of all Heresies.

9, Ibid., vol. 3.623; cf. Tertullian, Against Praxeas.

10, Ibid., vol. 3.597, cf., Against Praxeas.

11, Ibid., vol. 3.597; cf., Against Praxeas..

12, Ibid., vol. 3.598; cf., Against Praxeas.

13, Ibid., vol. 5.622.

14, Ibid., vol. 5.634.

15, Ibid., vol. 6.365.

16, 6.338.

17,Catechetical Lectures 16:4.

Father God in the Name of Jesus Christ, please raise up your mighty hand against all those who are perverting the gospel for gain and with false doctrines. May those who do so out of ignorance, please show them the error of their ways, and those who deceive on purpose please pull Your people away from them. We know, Father, that Your Will must be done, that all things must be fulfilled, and people have to decide which they love foremost, You or themselves. I am merely asking, Father, that the eyes of the deceived be opened and that they choose to seek after and fight for Your righteousness. Amen.

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101 Responses to “Juanita Bynum, Bishop Thomas Weeks, TD Jakes, Noel Jones, Tommy Tenney: Their True Demonic Roots”

  1. billy said

    I love your website keep up the good work

  2. Billy:

    Thank you very much. And you keep up the good work of serving Jesus Christ also.

  3. Dr. Kevin Paul Turner said

    This site only goes to prove that any crack pot that can design or afford a web site can recklessly say anything you want and attack anyone you desire. I do not have the time or patience to explain just how “off” your positions are. You wouldn’t get it even if I gave it to for free. I stumbled upon this web site and as of today have blocked it to make sure that I never do again. You are mishandling the little, did I say little, yes the little information that you have and you have bent scripture, historical record and someone else’s research to make it into something that you believe. Your hermeneutics are WAAAAAAAAAY off. By the way, what Holy hospital were you born in that gives you right to spout off. If you are so saved or so smart, or even so strong, then why don’t you bear the infirmities of the so-called week. You are a coward and would never confront any of the people you have mentioned. They would eat your lunch, the little crackers and cheese gospel that you have. I can’t stand folks like you. Go bother someone else. You are a spiritual quack!

  4. “Dr. Kevin Paul Turner” is a Oneness Pentecostal himself. His site, Holy Harvest Ministries.

    He believes if you don’t get baptized “In Jesus Name” you’re not saved. And that baptism of the Holy Spirit is a subsequent event after salvation and baptism, that comes via babbling.

    I doubt Turner really will keep his word on never coming back. He’s going to read to see what someone says in response to his statements.

    Turner, your babbling doctrine is bad teaching and you could not minister to an unbeliever of another language if your earthly or even your eternal life depended on it. Because you DO NOT have the gift of tongues AND such a gift is NOT required to be baptized in the Holy Spirit. All believers are baptized in the holy spirit at the moment of salvation and their gift of eternal life is sealed.

    Now Turner, I know you disagree, so stick around and actually present some scripture instead of your weak rhetoric and ad hominem attacks.

    The gift of tongues was to fulfill Isaiah 28:11-12 and you don’t have it. Because you can’t minister to an unbelieving Jew in their native language. And if we tossed you in the jungle with non-English speakers you would not be able to minister or even get yourself directions to a drink of water. You have no gift of tongues, because there is NO unbeliever that YOU can minister to in their native language. All that Ohbboo Hou Ku Ta Kau Looo Lo Ho Ko that you sputter from a pulpit is not tongues, it’s babble and you play on emotions, while mandating people pay you 10% of their gross salary PLUS, which no apostle of Jesus Christ ever did. It is YOU who wrongly divide scripture and YOU who are upset that WE are calling you and your cronies on it!

    People like you turn the truth of Jesus Christ into a laughing stock for late night comics!

  5. IndependentConservative: Thanks for the assist, brother in Christ.

  6. Healtheland – Notice that Turner did not come to the doctrine he embraces via his work towards his doctorate degree, it’s a lie he’s had ingrained in him since childhood:

    About Us

    It is not common knowledge that Dr. Turner was raised in a strict Pentecostal/Apostolic environment, with “heavy manors.”

    For the past 8 years, Dr. Turner has been intrinsically involved with Pentecostal Fellowship Churches, Inc and currently serves as Vice Presiding Bishop and Western Jurisdictional Bishop (but recently resigned).

    Our Bishop has been under the tutelage of great men in the gospel. Some of his mentors and contemporaries in the clergy include his father the late District Elder Ervin Turner, PFC Presiding Bishop Dr. Marshal L. Thomas, Bishop Noel Jones, Bishop Wm. Ellis, Bishop Heron Johnson, Dr. A.B. Sutton, the late Most Reverend Dr. John Thomas Porter, the Rev. T.N. Miller, Pastor/Bishop Dr. Iona Locke, Bishop Marvin Donaldson and Dr. Michael Saltmarch. Personally, Bishop has “HUGE” theological and personal respect for Dr. Q.E. Hammond and Rev. Kevin B. Willis. Turner graduated summa cum laude with a degree in Theology (Andersonville Theological Seminary) and holds a Doctorate of Divinity [hon.] (Saint Thomas Christian College). He is currently pursuing a degree in Christian counseling and the D.Min.

    This tells us a lot. Coming up I was in Pentecostal Holiness churches A LOT (how can you be part of them and not practically live in the church building?) and had exposure to the Oneness Apostolics, although I remained Trinitarian. I don’t think upbringing is an excuse, because I read the scriptures MYSELF and had to walk away from the Pentecostal folks, because even the unsaved can tell the babbling was not honestly the gift of tongues in action. And that (babbling) is used to make up all manner of things in those churches as supposed “prophesy” and “interpretation of tongues”. They’ll get extra-biblical in a heartbeat and claim it came from God. So I give Turner no breaks, given I learned after reading scripture for myself, but Turner chooses to keep the lie going. I don’t cut him any slack for continuing to embrace the delusion of bad doctrine. If I could read a Bible and learn better, he can too. I hold him to no higher standard than I do myself. More importantly, God knows Jesus was not praying to himself in scripture such as John 17. And Jesus was not praying to some form of His “spirit self” either. He was praying to His FATHER. The One who sent Him and He is One with. He is One with the Father, but Jesus is NOT the Father and the Father’s name is not Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ is the Son. The Holy Spirit Jesus had sent from God is NOT named Jesus Christ either. All 3 are our Godhead and One, but Jesus is not the 3, the 3 are One.

    Notice “Dr. Kevin Paul Turner”’s Doctor of Divinity Degree is an HONORARY DEGREE, HE DID NOT ACTUALLY GO TO SCHOOL AND EARN IT. He’s running the title like he went and earned a doctorate in seminary.

  7. Also on that page, you’ll notice that in academia, he’s known for teaching music, not theology.

  8. Kevin Turner said

    It appears that your Googling efforts only gave you some of my information. :-) I graduated from a Baptist seminary summa cum laude with a degree in theology. Plus I guess I was good enough to get a honorary doctorate from teaching Sunday School and Bible Class for 25+ years. So, that just busted your balloon!

    In addition, playa hata, if I was trying to hide a honorary degree, I most certainly would not have posted it on my web site. FYI – earned or honorary, in academia they hold the same weight. Sooooo like it or not, call me Rev. Mr. Bishop, what have you, but I’m still Dr. T. What business of it is yours anyway? You just didn’t like what I said so you went on a witch hunt. Well, everything is never available on the Internet and degree do not make a person in Christ.

    In closing, about God. It appears that you corner the market on God and the scriptures you know support your position. Well, the scriptures do not contain everything about the Son Jesus (who was God in the flesh – Emmanuel). Only what we know is what He has revealed. Quit pouring your wrath out on people on a subject that you have limited information about.

  9. Kevin Turner said

    Me Again!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    I also am a pretty good musician and song writer too!

    Peace

  10. Kevin Turner said

    All jokes aside, although I am tempted to tear in to you again. Unlike the average “church bear,” my family has all kinda church folks in it AME, Pentecostal, Non-denominational, Baptist, church of god in christ, and I’ve been around a lot of folks. Now here is something that is going to knock you off your snobby stool. There are Baptist folks who have experience speaking in tongues as the spirit of God gave utterance, but they are afraid of people like you. There are Apostolic/Pentecostals who know that God had a son, and that son was both human and divine but they are afraid of their preachers. But I am not afraid of you or them, and believe what the bible says and will do so until the return of Jesus Christ. But I will never shut up until people like you stop your intimidation tactics, with your limited knowledge of scripture.

    In addition, you will never know what a person believes or knows unless you are that person. Personally, I think you are a crackpot but I’ll keep that to myself.

    Kevin Turner (ThB earned summa cum laude & D.D. honorary) But their both mine! :-)

  11. I knew you’d be back. 3 comments in reply and not a lick of scripture yet.

    Plus I guess I was good enough to get a honorary doctorate from teaching Sunday School and Bible Class for 25+ years. So, that just busted your balloon!

    Not really. You did not earn your doctorate, somebody gave it to you in a show piece ceremony. You did not earn it via study and that’s why you’ve got to mention that little [hon] beside it in your bio. At least you’ve gone from trying to use it in your screen name as if you worked for it.

    …in academia they hold the same weight.

    In your DREAMS they hold the same weight. And your lack of understanding of scripture shows it.

    …degree do not make a person in Christ.

    It just makes you a braggart of something you did not actually earn when you try and toss out the title “Doctor”.

    Well, the scriptures do not contain everything about the Son Jesus (who was God in the flesh – Emmanuel). Only what we know is what He has revealed. Quit pouring your wrath out on people on a subject that you have limited information about.

    The less you say, the smarter you sound, doctor. You are a Oneness Pentecostal (or at the very least one who came here to defend Oneness Pentecostals, although you might actually realize their doctrine is FALSE), with no scriptural foundation for your position. So, as Oneness Pentecostals typically do, you use a “we don’t know” excuse to justify something you can’t honestly support with scripture. (If you know the Oneness doctrine is false, it’s even sicker for you to play such games.) We know what has been given to man in scripture, so we know God is triune in nature, the Trinity is proven in scripture.

    I also am a pretty good musician and song writer too!

    Talk about a braggart. You just can’t get enough of yourself. I’ve noted the games folks like yourself play using the temporary emotional highs of music. Oh, but that video includes people who actually EARNED THE DEGREE THEY CLAIM!

    All jokes aside, although I am tempted to tear in to you again.

    Well you’ve got one thing right, you are funny, in a sad sort of way.

    OK Turner, is there or is there not a proven Trinity, a Tri-Unity of God? Is God triune? If so, we have every right to go after Oneness liars. If not, you can try and make your case. There are 3, Father, Son and Holy Spirit that are the One true God. And the name of the full Godhead is not “Jesus”, that is the name of the Son.

    Regarding what you call tongues. Have you ever spoken in tongues to an unbeliever in their native language? You have not, don’t even start with the excuses, but your twists of scripture, ego and desire to fit the mold you’ve come up in keep you from seeing the truth.

    1 Corinthians 14:21-22 references Isaiah 28:11 and the unbelievers mentioned were JEWS. That gobbledygook you spout is not another language, but your own personal fit of emotion. And just because you or anyone else did it does not make it from God. You’ve shown here that you are an egomaniac and I’m sure you mistake it for some sort of “Holy boldness”.

    How about what you call a “tithe” Honorary Doctor? How about reading what someone who actually did doctorate work on the subject has to say about it?

    If you’re ready to put “all jokes aside” and discuss scripture, start whenever you’re ready. I’ll let you know ahead of time, Dr. Russell Kelly (a doctor not of the honorary persuasion) and I have conversed before and I can ask him to chime in if you need to hear it from someone who actually earned the title they claim.

  12. Also Señor Turner, I think it’s important to point out a couple things.

    1) You claim to be a church leader.

    2) You have no control over making edits to any of the comments you have already made here. Meaning that others doing “Googling”, to learn about you will now see your blathering tirade and you have no ability to ever remove it.

    Titus 1:7-10 notes:

    7) For a bishop must be blameless, as the steward of God; not selfwilled, not soon angry, not given to wine, no striker, not given to filthy lucre;

    8) But a lover of hospitality, a lover of good men, sober, just, holy, temperate;

    9) Holding fast the faithful word as he hath been taught, that he may be able by sound doctrine both to exhort and to convince the gainsayers.

    Now if little old me can read those verses, others seeing your blathering will certainly consider the verses that follow that and think of you.

  13. I have to note something now that I’ve watched the video on the front of Turner’s web site. Given he’s posted it on the very front of his site I take this to fully represent him as what he obviously sees as himself in the midst of ministry.

    Lots of jumping around, but the words when lined with scripture are not sound.

    I will say, that it’s wonderful that the young boy was healed of cancer. The Lord was obviously willing to see that child do better.

    However, Turner’s statements ALL play fully into the A-typical prosperity message. The full video can be viewed here.

    Turner plays the old David beat a giant, so you can beat any issue in your life too game. But Turner focuses mostly on material gain, such as money, scholarships and such, with a brief mention of “salvation for your soul”, the rest of the while speaking about total earthly and material things.

    Turner, please allow a little constructive feedback. The message of David defeating Goliath is not a story for material wealth and personal gain. For the Christian, this is a story of how faith in Christ is our means to overcome death, hell and the grave. It’s not about money, scholarships and such. It’s the archetype of our faith in Christ Jesus for salvation and eternal life, not money. Turner, you have no clue what tomorrow holds and should note that all comes as the Lord wills and their material success is NOT guaranteed, James 4:13-17. Please give the honest word to Christians and tell them that saints are not guaranteed material gain and scholarships. They should rather consider the Lord who saves from sin and offers the gift of eternal life. You hinted at salvation and that’s where you should have remained.

    The lives of the apostles of Jesus Christ shows a different picture in terms of material things, 1 Corinthians 4:11. On this earth, saints are guaranteed something far different from money and scholarships “coming down”, 2 Timothy 3:12.

    You play on emotions, while saints in places like China are killed for the faith. They realize Jesus offers a blessing to embrace, that has nothing to do with a check in the mail. Where is their “coming down”? Sir, this is a spiritual fight, not one for money and scholarships. The victory is in eternal life and you don’t know what tomorrow may bring in the physical sense.

    You also played on an old covenant scripture incorrectly in saying:

    You’re the head not the tail.

    Because you TOTALLY were prancing, jumping, whooping and so on all about what college students might get in something like a scholarship. That statement is from, Deuteronomy 28:13. It was given to Israel and this is clear when Deuteronomy 28 is read. This does not mean that Christians will be ahead in everything, or anything at all in the earthly sense. The last apostle of the Lord Jesus Christ, Paul in all his faith had to learn about grace, 2 Corinthians 12:7-10.

    Being the head and not the tails is not at all to be seen in the physical sense by the Christian, because we are not guaranteed physical headship, we live under the new covenant, where spiritual gain is the real blessing. For the saint to be the head and not the tail is to have the gift of eternal life sealed via the Holy Spirit and not eternal damnation to death, hell and the grave. To not be sent to the lake of fire with all who don’t have their names in the book of life.

    Turner, your message, the one you obviously take pride in as you do yourself so much, is nothing more than the A-Typical prosperity doctrine, that is NOT SOUND DOCTRINE. It is the mess that poisons minds and emanates from places like TBN, a haven for bad doctrine.

    Turner, you’ve got to turn from this bad doctrine and stand on the truth of the Gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ. Not plays on people’s fleshly desires for things like money. Build their hopes on things eternal and keep it there. When you build on things with no guarantee and a false foundation, you lead those who don’t receive that check to feel God is not real.

    If the faith of Paul can’t remove a thorn if the Lord so wills, you can’t guarantee anyone a scholarship check and should focus on Christ centered preaching.

  14. Alison said

    A doctrine being expelled by the early Roman Catholic Church doesn’t make me think, “Oh, it must have been wrong, because the Catholics didn’t approve of it.” Especially since the Roman Catholic Church wasn’t the result of apostolic succession as they try to claim. It was just paganism and greed clothed in the claim of Christianity. I need you to quote some real apostles, like Peter, Paul, John, etc. Otherwise, the quotes are just the deceptive babbling of false prophets.

  15. Alison said

    I just noticed the Turner vs. IndependentConservative debate. That is not what my comment above is directed at. It is directed to the article on Modalism and Church History.

  16. CHURCHGURL002 said

    I AGREE WITH DR. KEVIN PAUL TURNER, THIS SITE IS KIND OF BIASED AND NOT WELL SUPPORTED.AT THE SAME TIME, I APPRECIATE THIS SITE BECAUSE I THINK YOU GUYS HONESTLY BELIEVE YOU ARE HELPING PEOPLE. BUT AS I READ THE DIFFERENT COMMENTS, I REALIZED YOU GUYS KIND OF ATTACK PEOPLE WHO HAVE DIFFERING VIEWS THAN YOURS. I’M TWENTY YEARS OLD AND I HAVENT SEEN ARGUING LIKE THIS SINCE I WAS IN HIGH SCHOOL. HOW ARE WE REPUSENTING CHRIST IN ALL OF THIS?

  17. CHURCHGURL002: Well you agree with Dr. Kevin Paul Turner, and I will agree with the Bible, which all of my statements are fully supported by and slavish to. I do not attack people, I attack behavior that the Bible calls sin and doctrines that the Bible calls false. I am representing Jesus Christ by standing up for the faith that was once delivered to the saints against any and all liars, deceivers, blasphemers, apostates, and heretics no matter who they are, which is precisely what my Bible – and yours – tells me to do. I also feel that I should point this out: I am not the one starting the arguments here! These are all people who came to this weblog of their own free will and made whatever comments they saw fit. And so long as the comments contain a valid email address or their own personal weblog or website (I demand accountability, although sometimes I make exceptions even there) and contain no profanity, I allow them through. I am also very much amused by the fact that of all the Christians that come on here to denounce me as harming the Body of Christ, sowing seeds of division, being only negative without doing anything positive, etc. for discussing the doctrinal errors and lack of personal and professional ethics of their favorite celebrity preachers, ALMOST NONE OF THEM even bother to notice or comment on the other content of the website while they are making these accusations against me. For instance, I have 1350+ posts on this weblog. How many of them are in the “false preachers” category? 73. Barely 5%! They aren’t interested in anything on this weblog that may be edifying; their only interest is defending preachers whose messages and lifestyles are abiblical. And what does that tell you about A) these such people and B) the preachers that they are following?

  18. Romana Denefield said

    Shame, Shame, on you! God is the one and true living God and only He has the right to judge the body of Christ and the world. You say that these ministers have committed heresy and that they are demonize; since you deam yourselves so powerful then why haven’t you cast the devil out of them! What is really ashame is that people like you are not drawing people to Christ you are being use by the devil to divde the body of Christ. You have box God in as if He is weak and make God to look like He is not competent enough to know who is His children and who is not. Remember that God is all powerful, and all knowing. The bible speaks of wolves in sheep clothing! Which one are you? Wolf or Sheep! Now, when it is all said and done God is going to judge all of us that includes you, for every word that has come out of our mouths and that encludes the world wide web. I pray that God has mercy on you and your families because you have cause pain and affliction on the body of Christ and not healing! And this is tragic SO REPENT NOW FOR THE KINGDOM OF GOD IS AT HAND! And you must answer for all of these accuations against your brothers and sisters in the Lord Jesus Christ!!

  19. Maurice Durham said

    Be of good faith my brother, and know that there are others like you. Yes, it is frightening the way people have been brainwashed by heresy ministries today. But we must continue to stand on the truth. May God be with you!

  20. Anthony Abraham said

    Hmmm, I stumbled across this site today and found the exchanges eye opening and interesting. I consider myself to be like a Berean because I learned a long time ago coming up in the Apostolic faith that it is critical to investigate for self and never to accept that which is taught at face value. I do believe some of the point of th Apostolic doctrine yet I have many questions. At this point I’m fed up with what is going on in the so called church because this notion of church that exists today is out of sync with what the scriptures have declared. I want “Truth”‘ which seems to have become convoluted in agendas and schemes of the day that take advantage of people rather than edify to Godliness.

    I’m not one to through darts or judge, I observe and pray looking for the the evidence of acceptable fruit. I prefer careful examination and understanding because it is then that I can reason somewhat inteligently with others. Looking over you site and the posting I see I have a lot or reading and investigating to do. Yet it will be worth it if through these pages I come to a greater more excellent knowledge of the truth that I continually seek.

  21. ebony said

    This article states something QUITE INCORRECT..The Roman Catholic Church changed the formula for baptism from “In the Name of the Lord Jesus Christ” to repeating the words; “in the name OF the FATHER and OF THE SON and of THE HOLY GHOST”. If you read the new testament, beginning from the beginning of the Church in Acts, chapter 2, when the church was born, Peter commanded them to be baptized in THE NAME of JESUS CHRIST FOR THE REMISSION of their sins. Peter was NOT of the devil. Jesus ACTUALLY gave him the keys ( method of entry) into the Kingdom of heaven.

    FATHER SON AND HOLY GHOST are not nemes, but roles or positions in which God has interacted with humanity…Don’t believe it, read John, chapter ONE. what does it say about Jesus, who was THE WORD?

    The Roman Catholic Church has and had a habit of meeting and changing the word of God to suit their practices and purposes. According to New Testament teaching in the book of Acts, WHATEVER WE DO IN WORD THOUGHT OR DEED, should all be done IN THE NAME OF JESUS!!!
    SO why do you have an issue with it being used in Baptism? Does not the scripture teach that the name of Jesus is above EVERY other name given unto men in heaven and in the earth? IT DOES!!
    So please search the scripture ( New Testament especially) and find incedents where ANYONE was baptized using the words FATHER SON OR HOLY GHOST.

    None of those aret the names of God, nor do they have any power in them. Repeating part of the Words in Matthew 28:19 is simply doing that – REPEATING THE WORDS. Jesus did not say repeat after me, he said to baptize all people IN THE NAME OF (BELONGING TO) and notice he said NAME NOT NAMES…belonging to the Father and belonging to the Son and belonging to the Holy Spirit. If you ever could not understand what THE name was, all you had to do was read Acts @:38 and then go on from there to see whose name the Apostles did works in. It did come out of their mouths. By repeating Father, SOn and Holy Ghost, you are IMPLYING Jesus, but not explicitly.

    By using that name Explicitly, you invoke the power in it! The churches who repeat Matthew 28:19, do so, because they have recieved and carried this tradition on from the time when these different branches broke off from the Roman Catholic Church in what became protestatism.
    Being that the true Church was and always has been true and never Catholic,it never needed to be protestant. Do you object to the fact that we worship on the first day of the week and have made it ‘Holy”? That is one of the most CATHOLIC AND UNGODLY PRACTICES EVER.
    Sunday is the day of the SUNGOD, BAAL. Constantine the first POPE of the Roman Catholic Church worshipped BAAL, This is not the SABBATH that the Lord proclaimed HOLY. It is not the 7th day of the week as EVEN God observed BEFORE MOSES AND THE LAW EVER EXISTED!

    You will not find any change in the bible regarding the Sabbath. The apostles still kept it in the New Coventant.
    All in all, the formula for baptism was changed at the Council of Nicea, by the Roman Catholic Church, like so many other things. REPEATING MATTHEW 28:19 rather than doing it, was never a practice of the early true church. What is demonic are the changes made in Doctrine by the RC Church. who changes their doctrine at whim and do not have respect for the Word of God as holy and infallible.

  22. Jay said

    Hi, (one response will never do justice to any idea but…)

    I consider myself modalistic monarchianist (wow, that was a mouthful, how about I just say MM). Just the thought of saying that when inviting someone to church might discourage most from adopting the doctrine (smile).

    I just happened to stumble on to your site by chance and I found it quite interesting except for the straw man attack thingies. However, I do appreciate the diligence you put into the research. Nice connection between Isaiah 28:11 and I Corinthians 14:21-22 most apostolics (MM) miss that connection which changes significantly the message that is often presented when using the text. However, may I offer a simple thought to be considered.

    First, keep in mind that Paul does not condemned speaking in tongues in I Corinthians 14 but is promoting its appropriate application hence his admonish in the final verse of…doing things decently and in order.

    Secondly, verses 21 and 22 are a part of his overall warning to them of their continuing inappropriate use of tongues contrary to his guidance. He is in essence saying that if you continue to use tongues in a way that brings confusion “then” they are not of God for when God used tongues to confuse it was directed at unbelievers as in Isaiah 28:11 (I am still impressed by your connection). Caveat-Notice in both Isaiah and Corinthians Paul identify God as the one who used the tongues with purpose.

    Thirdly, I must agree with my dear sister (despite my love for history and the benefits of its guidance) that utilizing it as a primary document of proof in biblical matters can be deadly at best. Relative proximity in time though lending credence to ones argument becuase of familiarity with language does not ensure accurate interpretation. Thus it is my tendency to use the bible as my primary reference followed by historical documents.

    I have copied your web page to use for reference as I continue my studies. I must admit, I like many of your references on MM, am biased towards ONENESS but I am not afraid of truth. Truth will stand no matter what I do or think. And I certainly appreciate those who seek truth even it initially they do err. For it is impossible to seek truth and not make a few wrong turns. (Okay, starte to digress, sorry).

    Finally, to everyone, be careful about being baited into exchanges by men or women who only utilize railing accusations as a means to prove their point. Old saying, “Don’t get down in the mud to wrestle with pigs. You both will get dirty and the pigs will like it.”

  23. DAN WILSON said

    IT’S AMAZING THE COMMENTS ON THIS WEBLOG. THE COMMENTS ARE BASED ON INACCURATE AND HERETICAL STATEMENTS THAT EITHER WERE HEARD THROUGH FALSE TEACHERS AND PASTORS OR BY SECOND HAND INFORMATION.

    FOR THOSE WHO CONSIDER THE SABBATH AS BEING SATURDAY, I SUGGEST YOU STUDY AND INVESTIGATE EARLY CHURCH HISTORY AS IT WAS ESTABLISHED BY THE APOSTLES THAT ON SUNDAY, THE DAY OF THE LORD’S RESURRECTION THAT THE CHURCHED GATHERED TOGETHER AND CELEBRATED COMMUNION.

    IT IS CRITICAL TO GO TO THE TEACHINGS OF THE EARLY CHURCH AS THE SOURCE OF DOCTRINE DISPUTE BECAUSE MANY OF THE ‘PILLARS’ IN THE CHURCH WERE TAUGHT BY THE APOSTLES THEMSELVES. THEY WERE PERSECUTED AND DIED FOR THEIR FAITH.

    PERSONAL INTERPRETATION OF SCRIPTURE IS DANGEROUS AS YOU CAN INTERPRET OR TWIST SCRIPTURE TO SAY JUST ABOUT ANYTHING! UNDERSTANDING THE LANGUAGE THEY WERE WRITTEN IS IMPORTANT! FOR EXAMPLE, THE ENGLISH WORD LOVE MENTIONED IN THE NEW TESTAMENT HAS 3 DIFFERENT MEANINGS IN THE GREEK, AGAPE, PHILO AND EROS. DO YOU KNOW WHICH MEANING IN THE GREEK IS ASSOCIATED WITH THE ENGLISH WORD LOVE IN THE NEW TESTAMENT? THERE ARE ENGLISH WORDS IN THE NEW TESTAMENT FOR BELIEVE WERE IN THE GREEK THE MEANING IS OBEY. IN THE GREEK THE SENTENCE MAY READ “THOSE WHO OBEY GOD” WHEREAS IN ENGLISH THE SENTENCE MAY READ “THOSE WHO BELIEVE GOD. COMPLETELY DIFFERENT MEANING AND INTERPRETATION.

    AS TO THE ONENESS DOCTRINE, THE HEBREW WORD THAT GOD USED IN GENESIS TO DESCRIBE HIMSELF Gen 1:1 IS ‘ELOHIYM IS PLURAL IN HEBREW AS IN “LET US MAKE MAN IN OUR OWN IMAGE”.

    BECAUSE OF ALL OF THE HERETICAL DOCTRINES THAT WERE ASSAILING THE EARLY CHURCH, THE EARLY CHURCH FATHERS WERE REQUIRED TO DEFEND THE FAITH AND THE TEACHINGS OF THE APOSTLES THAT WERE HANDED DOWN TO THEM BY THE APOSTLES AND DISCIPLES OF CHRIST. PAUL AND PETER WENT TO THE CHURCH IN ROME, MARK WENT TO ALEXANDRIA IN EGYPT AS WELL AS APOLLOS MENTIONED IN 1 COR.4 TEACHING THE BRETHREN THERE. JOHN WAS IN EPHESUS AND TAUGHT THE EARLY CHURCH FATHERS. JAMES WAS IN JERUSALEM. THE EARLY CHURCH WERE IN ONE MIND IN TEACHING AND DOCTRINE SINCE THE APOSTLES AND DISCIPLES OF CHRIST WERE STILL LIVING AT THAT TIME.

    DESTRUCTIVE HERESIES BECAME PREVALENT ATTACKING THE APOSTLES TEACHINGS AND DOCTRINES. GOD ALLOWED IT SO THAT THE CHURCH COULD FORMULATE AND ESTABLISH THE FAITH ONCE FOR ALL DELIVERED TO THE CHURCH BY THE APOSTLES.

    MONTANISM AND GNOTICISM MENTIONED BY PAUL IN THE NEW TESTAMENT WAS ASSAILING THE CHURCH EVEN AS HE LIVED AS THESE HERETICS WERE CLAIMING SPECIAL REVELATION KNOWLEDGE DELIVERED TO THEM THROUGH THE SPIRIT. PAUL REFUTED THESE DOCTRINES AS WELL AS THE EARLY CHURCH FATHERS. THESE HERETICS CLAIM THEY HAD SPECIAL REVELATION KNOWLEDGE SUPERIOR TO THE APOSTLES.

    BEFORE ANYONE REFUTES THE TRINITARIAN DOCTRINE TAUGHT BY THE APOSTLES AND DEFENDED BY THE EARLY CHURCH FATHERS, THEY NEED TO READ AND INVESTIGATE THE WRITINGS OF THE EARLY CHURCH FATHERS WHO LIVED AMONG THE APOSTLES AND DISCIPLES OF CHRIST. THERE WERE MANY HERESIES ATTACKING THE HUMANITY OF CHRIST AS WELL AS HIS DIVINITY DURING THAT TIME.

    YOU CAN READ THE EARLY CHURCH FATHERS AT:
    http://www.ccel.org/fathers.html

    NEEDLESS TO SAY THAT ARGUMENTS AGAINST THE ONENESS HERESY CAN BE BETTER EXPLORED THROUGH OTHER SITES OR FROM THE WRITINGS OF THE EARLY CHURCH FATHERS

    FOR PEOPLE MISINFORMED CONCERNING THE ROMAN EMPOWER CONSTANTINE. HE WAS NOT A CHRISTIAN BUT ALLOWED THE PRACTICE OF CHRISTIANITY SINCE IT BENEFITED HIS EMPIRE. HE ONLY ACCEPTED CHRIST ON HIS DEATHBED.

    THE NICENE CREED WAS ACCEPTED BY THE WHOLE CHURCH AS THE ESTABLISHED CHRISTIAN DOCTRINE AND FAITH AS TAUGHT BY THE APOSTLES. ANY OTHER DOCTRINE IS ANATHEMA.

    WE ARE INSTRUCTED TO CONTEND FOR THE FAITH AS PAUL WARNED. THERE WILL BE FALSE CHRIST’S AND APOSTLES THAT WILL SPREAD DESTRUCTIVE HERESIES THROUGHOUT THE CHURCH, DOCTRINES OF DEMONS PREYING UPON THE LUST AND GREED OF PEOPLE’S HUMAN NATURE ‘POWER’ FAME’ WEALTH.

    GOING TO THE SOURCE OF THOSE WHO WROTE DURING THE APOSTOLIC TIMES IS CRITICAL SINCE APPROXIMATION EQUATES INTO APOSTOLIC CORRECTNESS INTO THE TRADITIONS, TEACHINGS AND DOCTRINES OF THE TRUE CHRISTIAN FAITH.

    YOUR SALVATION IS DEPENDANT ON YOUR OWN INVESTIGATION. DON’T BE LAZY AND DEPEND ON SOME PASTOR OR DENOMINATION TO TELL YOU THE TRUTH! IT’S NOT GOING TO DO YOU ANY GOOD IF YOU END UP IN HELL WITH THOSE WHO TEACH FALSE DOCTRINES, ANOTHER GOD, ANOTHER JESUS. BE LIKE THE BEREANS WHO STUDIED THE SCRIPTURES.

    I USE UPPER CAPS BECAUSE OF VERY POOR VISION

  24. All oneness cult members: any of you care to address the fact that your doctrine did not exist from like the year 200 to the year 1913? What was special about the founders of your cult that it was not revealed to anyone else but them? And what of all the other Christians who lived before 1913 (and presumably before 200 AD)? Are they going to go to hell?

  25. Marty said

    My heart goes out to Bynum and Weeks as it could happen to anyone…It is true..we must work out our own salvation and that leaves no room to judge others…There is only one judge who is over all and His name is Jesus who told us to forgive as he forgave…I pray all talks of this divorce will cease and the media will pull away from this situation…also that it will get no coverage in any of the christian stations that this can be worked out in private…

  26. Wake Up said

    WOW! Penecostal Oneness is the foothole for Satan in the CHURCH. It’s literally one of the gates to HELL. I just re-drew my membership from the penecostal/full gospel church because I did not agree with my woman pastor(who I wasn’t sure should be even pastoring)was now being called to be an Apostle. I wrote her a letter outlining scripture as why that cannot be possible today and my response was given to me over the pulpit. Then I was summoned into her office for a further reprimand all the while NOT ONE SCRIPTURE did she show me to substantiate her claim. We are called to defend our faith. These “kinds” of divides are exactly what Paul did his entire ministry. We are NOT “in Christ” UNLESS we believe HIS DOCTRINE. His doctrine is the bible as it is written, not what we interpret it to be to suit our own affairs. Tongues was a sign gift. It was a spoken language. That along with the miracles, healings and prosperity is where they are absolutely wrong!!! There is no special annointing. I’m am so sick of all this deception going on and no one speaking up. The bible says it is an evil and adulterous generation that seeks a sign and a wonder. WE TAKE GOD AT HIS WORD!!!!When He and the 12 Apostles did those things it was to lay the foundation of the church BEFORE scripture was written. He was talking to the Apostles in scripture, not every believer concerning those gifts. That’s what gets on my nerves is all they care about is THE GIFTS!!! We are CALLED to DIVIDE. He said come out from among them be ye separate!!!! We don’t all “just go along to get along”. The devil can give you tongues. Alot of the tongue talkers live very wicked lives and have NO FEAR of God or His wrath to come constantly ADDING to scripture! Thank you Healtheland and Thank you Independentconservative!!!!!

  27. MARIE A BROWN said

    YOU SOUND LIKE THE SCRIBES AND PHARISEES, JESUS SAID, HE THAT IS WITH OUT SIN CAST THE FIRST STONE (JOHN C8V7). HE SAID THIS IN DEFENSE OF A YOUNG WOMAN, BUT IT STILL HOLDS TRUE TODAY. GOD GAVE US HIS WORD TO LIVE THIS LIFE, HE GAVE HIS SON TO SHOW US HOW TO LIVE THIS LIFE AND HE GAVE THE HOLYGHOST TO GUIDE AND COMFORT US UNTIL HE TAKES US HOME. IF YOU DO NOT TUNE YOUR SPIRIT TO GODS SPIRIT YOU WILL NEVER KNOW WHAT THE SCRIPTURES MEAN, BECAUSE THE REVELATION HAS TO COME FROM HIM. THIS IS HIS WORD, TRUST IN THE LORD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND LEAN NOT UNTO THINE OWN UNDERSTANDING. IN ALL THY WAYS ACKNOWLEDGE HIM, AND HE SHALL DIRECT THY PATHS.(PROVERBS C3V5A6) I HAVE FOUND GOD TO BE TRUE TO HIS WORD, LETS NOT CONTIUE TO GIVE PLACE TO THE DEVIL BY AIRING ARE BROTHERS DIRTY LAUNDRY AND ARGUEING THE SCRIPTURES, TIME IS OF THE ESSENCE, JESUS IS COMING SOON AND WE MUST MAKE ARE SELF READY. YOU PRAY FOR ME AND I’LL PRAY FOR YOU, PASS IT ON AND SOON WILL ALL BE ON ONE ACCORD.

  28. Diane said

    I have not met many Oneness Pentacostals, nor have I been in any of their fellowships. My question is how anyone truly believing in and following Jesus as Lord and Savior, can be judged as going to hell?

    I don’t agree with their beliefs because there are to many instances of Jesus praying to the Father (especially on the cross), but judging them as “hellbound”, and they, on the other hand, saying if we are not baptised in the Name of Jesus only, we are not saved and thus “hellbound”….

    Is God going to cast them into the lake of fire because oneness pentacostals believe God came in the flesh?

    Is God going to cast the thief on the cross in hell because he wasn’t baptised AT ALL (Father, Son, & Holy Spirit or Jesus only)?

    I do believe it would be hard to fellowship with someone who believed Jesus was the Father, but I can still show love, dignity and respect to them and I believe they have eternal life.

    Wake Up, what you experienced sounds terrible. Unfortunately I’ve heard of similar experiences like the one you’ve described, some of them were even more humiliating. I do have a comment and a couple of questions for you. You don’t have to respond here, but I pray you would consider these things privately.

    Where does Jesus say that His miracles would be done away?
    Have you been taught this by man or God?

    Man’s fear, unbelief and abuse of God’s gifts does not nullify His gifts. Marriage is good, but has been abused by sinful men and women throughout history, but we don’t say “let’s do away with it”.

    Mark 16:17 And these signs shall follow those who believe…….

    “Those who believe” that Jesus was referring to were “every creature” who believed the gospel.

    In Christ

  29. Diane: “My question is how anyone truly believing in and following Jesus as Lord and Savior, can be judged as going to hell?” Simple: because a person that does not believe in Trinity does not believe in Jesus Christ. They merely say that they do. Claiming that Jesus Christ is merely a manifestation, mode, or relationship of God the Father to Himself is the same as saying that there IS no Jesus Christ. As such, it is a false gospel based on a nonexistent Jesus Christ. You said it yourself: take away Trinity, and Jesus Christ was praying to Himself. And the fact is that there is no justification for believing this. These people KNOW that modalism was rejected as heresy by the early church. They KNOW that modalism doctrine was not being preached from the second century AD until 1913. Do you know how they deal with those facts? They LIE by claiming that the Roman pagans invented Trinity, the same lie that Mormons, Jehovah’s Witnesses, non – Messianic Jews, Dan Brown types, rationalists and skeptics, etc. use. Some of them, like TD Jakes, even lie about being oneness, and a great many others refuse to publicize the fact. Why? What are they ashamed of? No one that is stubborn rebellious liar will be allowed in heaven, plain and simple.

  30. Diane said

    Healtheland, is our Heavenly Father offended? I’m not sure if you have any sons, (they are such a blessing), but if you do, would you be offended if you sent your son in your likeness and people thought your son was you? Would you cast these people out of your presence when they finally got the chance to meet you face to face?

    Baptist, Pentacostals, Reformed, Methodists etc, I nor you have a perfect understanding of God. It’s when people deny the deity of Christ that I become concerned for their souls.

    I have 2 friends that are JW, and we have had a lot of discussions about the deity of Christ. One of my friends sends me tracts, and I respond to the references about Christ. Over the years, I have prayed with them and shared the truth about Christ, but never has God ever led me to call them rebellious, liars, even though I know that unless they repent and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ they will not be saved. I’m not sure if your strong statements (stubborn, rebellious, liar) were directed at all oneness pentacostals, or just certain leaders.

    If we were to take the time to call out every christian group, and call them names, tell them they’re hellbound (not for denying Jesus, but for disagreeing with our viewpoint), we will quench the Holy Spirit of God.

    Do you believe that oneness believers are our brothers in Christ?

  31. Kevin Turner said

    Thought I’d drop in again to see who else you were insulting with your rude self. Until you speak to people one on one and see where they are coming from, you don’t know much of anything. Its quite easy to post a web site and spew your nastiness. As I said before, you know about 10 good scriptures, which means you are worth the time debating. I still say what I mean and mean what I say, everyone that you have mentioned would eat your lunch. I can for that matter LOL!!! Keep up the good work at showing how ignorant a smart person can be.

    Who was it that hurt you? What happened to you that you are on such a crusade to crucify people who aren’t like you? You faithfully put people in hell each week, and without any conversation you use venom to preach your version of the gospel. Whatever you believe concerning water baptism, theology, the diety, trinity versus oneness, I think based on your attitude alone I might stand a better chance getting into heaven than you. This is how I honestly feel. And on a serious tip, you can handle a serious tip, I’ve been around every denomination there is, although it seems that your only office skill is to cut and paste from mine and other peoples web sites. Not one denomimation or religion has it 100% right. From doctrine, bible translations, the etymology of words their is much exhaustive study to be done. Even King James tells you up front this is “his” version of the bible, not an upgrade a version. Yet, you stand there on your seat of judgment babbling off at the mouth. Personally, I think you are a trip and I’m not afraid of you.

    Concerning what I feel concerning baptism, I don’t have to defend my beliefs to you. However, I will always believe scripture. Scripture uses so many terms: born again, salvation, saved, converted, Christian, spirit-filled… I choose not to pick the ones I like, I think they all are for my benefit. Continue to pick your poison, and I’ll continue to enjoy the things of God. I am born again Christian, I am water baptised in Jesus name (you know Jesus did tell Peter upon this rock I will build my church, and Peter’s name in 4 different languages means rock, and following Peters message he instructed the New Testament church to be baptised in the name of Jesus) and that’s good enough for me. By the way, where are your scriptures showing that someone actually got baptised saying Father Son and Holy Ghost? You haven’t quoted it, because their aren’t any. But do you see me opening up a web site to spew venom at you? I’m telling you –whoever you are– that you don’t corner the market on biblical knowedge or interpretation of scripture.

    The captions at the bottom of your web site are disturbing. I see all of your work to defame other preachers and pastors, but what are you doing in regards to winning souls to Christ. Who made you the police? Oh, I forgot you did. Until…

  32. effect said

    All the blabbering between Turner, healtheland and independentconservative is just as someone else said a means by the true enemy Satan to keep the Body of Christ divided. There were divisions in the early church when Paul separated himself from Barnabas. The real discussion should be Jesus Christ is Messiah and we all need to repent and be saved through Him to enter the Kingdom of Heaven. The other things you are arguing about has been Satan’s plan for a long. Keep the Church arguing and we can’t come into the unity of the faith. That whole argument about the “name” of Jesus is pointless, because if any of you really studied you would know that most of those Scriptures you’ve used are referring to operating in the authority or character attached to the calling of Jesus not a title. For instance, if the President of the U.S. sent a representative to your house and they bare his seal and had the proper ID we would accept that person in on behalf of the President. We are saying to people when we baptize, evangelize, or etc. that it’s in Christ’s authority that we do this, it’s as His representative so as not to be identified with anyone, or any othre religion but the one true Living God. It’s in the authority and character of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit and all three are personified through one man Jesus that we teach, baptize, heal, cast out devils and speak with new tongues Mk 16:15-18 and Matt. 28:19.

  33. Turner said

    And the beat goes on! :-)

  34. Kevin Turner said

    Call it what you will sir. The Holy Writ still advises that we “should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.” This Independent Conservative in my opinion is just another Internet Bully. In any court in America he might me sued to defamation of character, slander or worse. I take great offense when web sites are created like this one and they talk about people that they don’t even know or have even had dialog with. I said it once and I’ll say it again, Noel Jones and others would eat this dudes lunch and the only reason they haven’t responded is because this IC isn’t even in his radar or league. Furthermore, when someone is always speaking at people and never to people, it shows a tremendous lack of character. Anybody with $10 bucks can get a web site and say whatever but it still doesn’t make it right. Whatever you call yourself, oneness, Trinitarian, or however you are baptized, God’s word is dealing with you where you are at during that time and it is proof that you responded to the word that was given. But this petty sensationalism reporting of going on different web site and picking and choosing quotes, which takes things out of context, will not go unchecked.

    Not once in the bible does God say, explain me. It is not possible to explain The Eternal and the Ancient of Days. And to have the gall to speak against a certain sect of the Christian population who have experience Christ in a way that is foreign to him will not go unchecked. You to sir, can call it what you like, but I promise you this, its not babbling. It appears that you got some issues as well.

  35. Diane said

    Kevin Turner, I agree with you that God doesn’t require us to explain the trinity in order to be born again but does that mean that you also take issue with those who say Christians are hellbound if they are baptised in the Name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit?

    I have, and some Oneness, Pentacostal, Baptist & Reformed believers have behaved in ways that remind me more of the Scribes, Pharisees, and Paul before his conversion; sometimes we “don’t know what spirit we are of”.

    But Jesus did say “beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves”.

    Though we may disagree in our theology (I believe Jesus is the Son, not the Father) I hope the world would know that we can communicate in obedience to the commands of Jesus to “love one another”, and I pray that you feel that same respect towards others.

    Are you at all grieved by the unchristlike and sinful lifestyles these people are living before the world?

  36. chris said

    dud if you really want to know who jesus is read isaiah 9chapter and the 6 verse you my friend are wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy of in left field.

  37. Charles said

    Dr. Kevin Paul Turner; I can certainly understand it if you get frustrated when attempting to state your position to that loud mouth know nothing, aka Independent Conservative or IC. Disagree with this person and you better prepare for castegation and personal attacks which he often employs, in an effort to distract from his ravings about things he knows absolutely nothing about.

    He is a remarkable argument for some kind of regulation on the internet and ruin it for others who know what they are talking about. Spewing vile and offensive personal verbal attacks seem to be his core competency.

    You should pray for him as I have done.

    Charles

  38. Charles: Are you oneness?

  39. What a colorful board!
    I have been reading the comments, and have concluded and admitted to myself, that I have come to enjoy the family squabbling. It has become some sort of deranged entertainment for me. I should probably repent…right?
    I think what I enjoy most about all the name calling, ego’s flying, hurt feelings, and “saintly arrow’s”, is that there seems to be more that unites everyone on this board, then actually divides (regardless of your doctrine). So I guess from where I am sitting, I feel like I am at Thanksgiving dinner sitting at the kiddie table again! I wonder why I like this table so much? ;)

  40. Eden Hadassah:

    Yeah, some of these threads have gotten out of control. I have toyed with the notion of closing some for comments or even deleting some entries along with their comments, but I decided to have a rather permissive policy and just let people have at it. What we say to others (especially in the anonymity of the Internet) and how we handle what is said to US is a key test of our Christian maturity in the fruits of the Holy Spirit. IndependentConservative warned Dr. Kevin Paul Turner of such when he made comments to the effect of “you know that anyone with a search engine can find your comments on here don’t you?” The fellow did not heed his warning.

  41. To me it is just a learning curve. I like the kiddie table. I myself am a kid. So I guess I find it amusing rather then insulting or offensive. It has taken a long time for G_d to round off the sharp corners of my heart, and many times I come across those sharp jagged parts of my own personality. Unfortunately this seems to be where we are all united.
    I understand it, have lived it, and unfortunately have that side too. It’s probably the reason for my own sense of grace and mercy toward those with a sharp tongue.
    In my own opinion, this kind of bickering occurs when people spend too much time with their own church people. Those strongly rooted in a particular church are used to being treated and talked to a certain way, and are used to responding to others according to the “ediqutte” of the church they attend. When they come on a board, and someone they do not know begins to respond to them in a way that is different then what they are used to, they take offense. They begin to demand their rights. They bring ediquette into the picture dressed up with scriptures. All people, I don’t care whether you are saved or not, know how to be kind to others. No scriptures need be given on that matter. That is why I smile.

  42. Eden Hadassah: I hear you. I have to admit that sometimes I want to scream “What is wrong with you knucklehead? Are you stupid or something? Can’t you just read what the Bible says and believe it?” but I know that were I to speak after that fashion it would say more about me than it would say about the person that I am addressing. Of course, there is the regrettable fact that I have succumbed to such discourse on more than a few occasions, so running this weblog is as much more my spiritual education, growth, and development as anyone else. I have learned so much in a very short time, and the biggest lesson has been that I did not know nearly so much about the Bible as I thought!

  43. Very true. Be encouraged to continue. As you grow and change, so will your site.

  44. Charles said

    HTL, And hell-o to you too! I just received your email – appears you had forgotten who I am.

    I’ve seen at least 3 definitions on posts that I have read; so as not to raise my ayre against your friend IC, what is your definition of “oneness.” That term has never been used in my church, at any time or anywhere. Define it and I’ll tell you quickly.

    I will tell one thing (though) IC indicated in one of his slanderous ravings that I was COGIC or AoC that is a total lie! Never have been and vo desire to become. I am Bible believing Baptist……what of it???? :~)

    Charles

  45. Charles said

    Eden Hadassah: Pleases me that you can actually lighten up some. But I gotta tell you, I’ve never in my life have seen the comical side of deranged ranting until I read your commentary about various stock markets of the world and your feelings towards them.

    If this is the kiddies table – that was saintly looney toons. But I like changes of pace every now and again. Not changes of state; just pace…please.

    Charles

  46. Charles:

    I knew that you were not oneness – meaning a heretic that denies Trinity – when I asked. I was wondering why you were rising up in defense of one is all. It was more of a challenge. Dr. Turner furthermore states that he has been in Trinitarian denominations and rejected them, implying that he chose his current denomination more out of personal comfort level than doctrine, which means that he REALLY needs prayer. And what extraction of Baptist are you? Reformed Baptist? Primitive Baptist? Southern Baptist? Full Gospel Baptist?

  47. Charles D. said

    Full Gospel! How about you, in terms of denomonation I mean?

  48. Fran said

    One thing I think it’s safe to say, When we all get to heaven, their wii not be church denominations.

    I use to have a sharp tongue, but now I exercise a dull blade.

  49. Charles: Raised Pentecostal Holiness, now nondenominational

  50. It is truly amazing that Christian websites rather than lifting Y’shua / Jesus up are busily adding confusion to an already perverse generation by tearing one another down in an “Effort to expose the truth”. Y’shua said, “If I be lifted up–not torn down”–and Paul said, “Whether out of love or selfish gain – the Gospel is preached”.
    Christ Jesus will come for those he knows, we already know that the Adversary is working hard to destroy the church – rather let us love and pray for one another and our enemies and see The Father’s Glory revealed in this age in Jesus’name and be less like the Devil’s liberal media.

  51. Eden Hadassah said

    This link was on Sword of Truth:
    It’s more Texe Marrs…
    I never researched this guy. Does anyone have info on him?
    HTL:
    Did you see the link on the Talmud I posted? The link for Talmud verses goes into great detail of some of the stuff written in the Babylonian Talmud. What will the ADL do with it? They are claiming that because Hoffman has published much of the writings, (Hoffman is himself jewish)that it is the cause of more anti-semetic problems. There needs to be a law that states that publishing or speaking the very verses of their Talmud is not anti-semetic.
    My question is why would the Anti-Defamation League try to defame people by listing them on their site? Not to mention bullying? (You got my email right?)

    http://www.texemarrs.com/042003/masonic_jews_plot_world_control.htm

  52. Eden Hadassah:

    Loking at that Talmud stuff was painful. It really was, and I do not know why. Not as painful as that Nabion link. I will have to strengthen myself and get back into it.

  53. Eden: Texe Marr … well I believe a good deal of what he says, but some of what he says you have to take with a grain of salt. There is a reason why I only have one of his videos on this weblog, and the only link that I have of his was information on the Paul Crouch getting drunk and having sex with a man scandal that I already independently knew to be true.

  54. Charles D. said

    Paul”Apostle”Dale:

    First, you should seriously consider changing your nickname and stop playing with a title of such significance. Secondly, at least part of what you’ve said is true; however, in Ecclesiastes 3:1 it is written that: There is a time for everything and a season for every activity under heaven.”

    I guess my point is: it is neither the time or place to allow false prophets, witches, warlocks, soothsayers, or any other unclean, unspiritual entity attack or entice God’s own. Lest they attempt to speak evil against dignities that they know nothing about, or, water-down the things of God, e.g., the title of “Apostle.”

    Wake-up while time remain,

    Charles

  55. Charles D:

    Thanks brother for speaking the truth. Hey, just curious … are you familiar with the writings of the north African church father Tertullian?

  56. Charles D. said

    Good Afternoon HTL:

    I certainly am familiar with Tertullian. It’s quite the coincedent that you should mention him since I had referenced Ecclesiastes to the young brother and since Tertullian was a Ecclesiastical writer.

    When I reflect on his works, the Apostle Paul comes to mind for obvious reasons, e.g, his excellent knowledge of Roman law and his late in life conversion. Sounds familiar, huh?

    Under different circumstance, I would have said more to Paul (not the sainted one); and very probably, I would have responded in a different way. I feel somewhat constrained here because almost everyone, I mean unseasoned everyones, like to have a scripture reference for every nuance and often times, I like to speak in scripture. The spiritual circles in which I travel are sufficiently steeped in the Word to admonish or correct me should I stray. However, I am careful to stay on the straight and narrow when it comes to the Word of God, because I firmly believe that Revelation 22:18-19 applies to me even moreso. To know the Truth and speak otherwise is quite different than merely speaking, not knowing the Truth, and very little about anything else.

    Be blessed,

    Charles

  57. Eden Hadassah said

    HTL:
    When you can stomach the site again, take some time to read the prophecy by John ben Kathryn.

    It doesn’t reflect the Nabion website.

  58. Curtis Montgomery said

    Most Apostolics would not even answer you because you only speak with rehtoric and you have not produced any biblical truth to work with. In other words you have not even given enough bible knowledge to show that you are in error. What you clearly show is prejudical reliance on tradition and a disire to fight with words. It would be the duty of a person with God’s love in there heart to meekly show a person when there wrong. But you seem to want to fight call names and go off what you have been traditionaly taught. Don’t you realize that Martin Luther was not thought to well of By the roman catholic church. So then why should your readers be so alarmed about teachers that were called heretics by People who believed in pergitory and other things promoted by the catholic church. I just will go to one scripture and that is Isa 9:6 does not the scriture call the son born and the son given the Everlasting Father,and does not this scripture call him The Mighty God. To me no matter what you say at this point it is clear this Son born is Jesus and he is the Everlasting Father….How can this be? Chew on that.

  59. Eden Hadassah said

    Curtis,
    Didn’t Yeshua say that he and his father were one? There is but One God!
    Please do not take just one or two scriptures and try to make your point…that is not apologetics either.

    Tell me something, why does it say in Genesis, “Let US make man in OUR image?” Who was God talking to? The angels? Would you equate the angels with God? No. He was talking to someone. Who?
    He certainly wasn’t talking to Satan.
    Who was Yeshua praying to in the garden? What did he call the one he was praying to? And when he taught others to pray, did he tell them: Our Yeshua who is in Heaven? He said, “Our Father”, why not refer to himself? Why would Yeshua say this? If he wanted to be called Father, he would have stated so. He came to do his Father’s will, so how can he also be “Father?” He would be a liar, and instead he would have promoted himself. There is one God and of our God is his Holy Spirit, and of our God is his Son, Yeshua. They are one.

  60. Dear Eden:

    Many Apostolics can’t receive the fact God was not talking to himself but to others who were equal with Him, because they try to view God through their own eye’s. This is the same thing we see in the prosperity church today. An attempt to serve the right God the wrong way. A foolish attempt to do and say what they want, and believe in their heart’s God will accept their worship.
    In 1991, I received the Baptism in the Holy Spirit. It was at that time I truly understood why people thought the apostles were drunk on the day the Holy Spirit fell. I was drunk. And I use to drink many years ago. But this was a different drunk.
    I didn’t speak a single word in an unknown tongue but felt His presence moving without from my center into all areas of my body. The warmth a love was incredible.
    I can tell you when they say you must speak in tongues, they’ve once again twisted sound scripture.
    So many Pentecostal churches are preaching this lie today. Even though many are educated they continue to do it because they don’t want to be criticized. I have talked with hundreds of ministers who have admitted to me they could care less about tongues, but desire the giver of the gift; not that there is a problem with speaking in tongues, if the Holy Spirit should move a person into this area.
    But so many have taken what was done on Pentecost, and made a god out of it. I hear I everywhere I go. “If you don’t speak in tongues you’re not saved,” they say.
    We all know man has made gods out of many things, this is no different.

  61. Eden Hadassah said

    I hear you minister…

    Lot’s of unfounded things have come out of the movement.

    Speaking of the Holy Spirit moving, kind of like spinning slowly yet still in one place!

  62. dee said

    THE LORD REBUKES YOU SATAN….WOE UNTO THOSE THAT OFFEND GOD’S PEOPLE

  63. Charles D. said

    Dee

    This is the second of your comments that I’ve seen and I still don’t know if you are rebuking Juanita or you disagree with what she’s doing, or if you’ve been emsmared by the money related sins by which she has drawn sheep. Dependent upon your rightful answer, you might have been included.

    Charles

  64. There is nothing to rebuke. The Lord knows those that are His.
    The unlearned are often left with nothing to say except quote scripture when confronted with the truth.
    Jesus put many of the religious leaders in their place for living a lie and calling it truth; that is truth according to their own way of seeing things. They made an effort to serve God the way they thought He should served.
    But God of not the author of their dream and their truth(idol worship), as so many word of faith preachers teach. He is however, the author of His dream for you.
    We are called to serve God in the name of His Son Jesus, not worship the gifts he gives us.

  65. tim said

    over the last 7 yrs. or so, i have searched the scriptures and have read some views on speaking in tongues. is the “babbling” tongues? what is glossolalia? is it estatic speech? is estatic speech demonic? is speaking in tongues, speaking another earthly language? i have read where the pagans in paul’s days used estatic speech. i lean heavyly towards tongues beinging an earthly language only, but was raised in the charismatic movement of the 70’s and still at times speak in the “babbling” tongues. can you comment and answer these questions for me w/scripture and the hebrew and/or greek? i’ve only skim read parts of this page since it’s late, but what is your background in studying the Word, heartland. i agree, no one who has argued with you has used the Word which obviously means that they either choose to ignore it, don’t know it or are afraid to know the truth, whatever the truth is concerning speaking in tongues. some of the verses in 1 cor. where paul talks about tongues are a little confusing concerning praying w/o the mind and praying w/ the Spirit. those churches that pray in tongues alot during the service don’t adhere to the instruction scripture gives on the subject and the ppl are alot of time w/o knowledge of the Word, not grounded in the Word. i know, i’ve been apart of these churches. thx

  66. tim said

    sorry, it’s not heartland but healtheland. jus’ tired.

  67. tim said

    i would also say, that alot of christians have felt the Baptism of the Holy Spirit in their “babblings” in the 70’s, a true experience from Jesus. they have felt the presence of Jesus. their is also the verse in romans that speaks of the groans of the Spirit. could you explain,healtheland? i have felt a freeing mentally from demonic oppression when i have spoke in tongues,”babbled”.

  68. Turner said

    Merry Christmas everybody! Have a blessed and prosperous new year in 2008. Peace on earth and good will towards all men. I’m not sure that will ever happen on this site. LOL!!! And I am pretty certain that all of us will be at it again soon…Lord willing and the creek don’t rise. I’m also pretty sure that someone will send me (another) e-mail telling me about some new mean thing that was said by some mean person. No.68

  69. johnkaniecki said

    Tim,

    Hi hello how are you? Let me jump in a little bit on this conversation. I Corinthians 13 mentions the tongues of men and angels. Now in Acts two there is a speaking in tongues where everyone heard Peter or one of the others speaking in their native language. That is the speaker spoke Hebrew yet the hearer heard his natural tongue. These are two different phenomana.

    The Romans scripture goes back to the tongues of angels. The Eskimos have very man words for snow. The Greeks had a very specific language. There is philos, eros and aggape all translated as love. The groaning Romans talks about is how the Spirit utters towards God’s Spirit. It occurs in sorrow and jubilation, where Earthly words fail us.

    That is my take on it anyway and I could be one hundred percent wrong, but I don’t think I am far from the truth.

    Can we talk about the Lakota Tribe declaring independence from the United States government?

    Love,

    John

  70. Charles D. said

    Hey John

    You make some very good observations and I agree with you.

    Okay, this is 100% me and my beliefs: As the living breathng Word of God, I believe “speaking with the tongues of man and of angels” have multiple meanings; including the examples that you have stated above, but, much more. I first read or heard of the verse when I was very young, very young, and I’m not young anymore. However, when I read your comment, I remember exactly what the verse meant to me when my mother first read it to me as a child and I know what I envisioned as I read the verse here. Absolutely nothing has changed.

    I think there are OT and NT inferences and examples that can be used. I believe two different readers of the verse can draw equally valid interpretations; e.g., hearers heard Hebrew words in their natural tongues. Have you ever witnessed a new born baby smiling/laughing in its sleep, then, have a belivers say “he/she is being tickled by angels?” Just thought I’d throw that in there.

    Charles

  71. Danyelle Dreyton-Purcell said

    Site Moderator: Do you believe that the Father, The Son,and the Holy Spirit endorse and are glorified with your tone? Is this dialogue to open so-called “blinded” eyes or to ravenously tear down false doctrines/heretics? Guess what, this Jesus that you all believe we should follow is not impressed with scholarly arguments and who is “right”. He is concerned with truth given and RECEIVED SO THAT WE CAN BE RIGHT BEFORE HIM. With YOUR SUPREME AND RIGHT SELF because you know the truth, did you ever take the time to really ingest and model your apologetics after the founding Apostles of the early Church? Their emphasis was to destroy the root of heretics and heresy through TEACHING THE TRUTH to believers and spreading the gospel to the lost, not engaging in endless debates with heretics. Please, review your zillion Scripture references licensing you to berate and win cultists through your methodology and tone just to humor yourself and see where the emphasis was given in defending the faith. You and Independent Conservative need some more of this Holy Ghost you defend in your so-called works or ministries for the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

  72. Job said

    Danyelle Dreyton-Purcell:

    I speak against heretics in the same fashion as did the writers of 1 and 2 Corinthians, Galatians, Jude, 2 Peter, James, 1 and 2 Timothy, and all three letters of John. If anything, my language and tone are milder than theirs. Now are you going to deny that James, John, Jude, Peter, and Paul spoke against heretics in the strongest terms possible? Or is your position that speaking against heretics was for that place and time and not ours? Or is your position that I lack the authority to speak as they did?

    If either of those are your positions, then please provide scriptural and historical justification to support them. Otherwise, you are committing a worse sin than what you accuse me of. I will say that by saying things like “Please, review your zillion Scripture references licensing you to berate and win cultists through your methodology and tone just to humor yourself and see where the emphasis was given in defending the faith” you are off to a bad start. What do you suppose my motivation is other than to defend the faith? If your allegation is that the faith can only be defended by using positive or nice words, then the very same “zillion scripture references” that you speak of disprove your case.

    And further, I am going to speak to you from a purely emotional standpoint. Do you love God? Do you love God’s people? If so, does not the actions of these people that lie on the God that you love and deceive and harm the people of God that you love anger you, and fill you with a passion to oppose the blasphemers and help those being harmed?

  73. Mark said

    i pray for people like you i mean you have the right to your opinion but to call someone demonic things like with so much anger and hostility you don’t seem like you have to much of the love of God in you either. you can have your opinion but you need to learn to disagree in love check your love man paul said the greatest gift is love God is Love why don’t you have an open forum with these men and women you call demonic and discuss your thoughts with them i am sure inspite of what you have called these people everything but a child of God,they would not come at you in the same spirit that you have because the spirit that you are functioning in is not of God.listen to youself man you sound almost out of your mind reading some of your words i can feel the unholy hostility in them well i’ll say this and close one thing about it in the end we will see judge nothing before it’s time God has the final say.

  74. Kevin Turner said

    He will, and others on this site, will never reach across the aisle. Heathenland Press and IndependentCorruptable are pulpit bullies. Mark, I was looking for something on the Net one day, and was stunned that this web site was so vile. So I dropped in and spoke my peace. My input was met by retaliation, half quotes from my web site, minimizing my education (earned and honorary) and when a 22-year old boy was cured on cancer I was scolded for rejoicing too much.

    Actually, I think I’ve help bring some spirited conversation that appears to have been seldom visited anyway. Since I was never told thank you, I will take this time to say “you’re welcome.” One other thing you are going to notice as that the web host and others spend a whole lot of time dogging everyone they do not like or is not like the conservative christian establishment. This argument is as old as the Holy Writ. But after reviewing all 73 entries you will never see a hint of compassion, there’s nothing about how they contacted who they disagreed with and tried to show them the light. Its just a venomous site. Its sensational bad journalism as well. At the top of this web page it appears that someone biblically trained is running, with one of the references of the branch of systematic theology. But at the bottom of the page peoples names are listed with porn and demonic. I’m telling you, somebody’s gonna get sued (defamation, slander, etc) and heaven ain’t happy with this either.

    You can’t bait me into theological conversation because when dealing with God, He shouldn’t be debated just so someone can win a an argument and prove what you believe to be correct. Until the trumpet sounds in air there will be incredible and awful arguments and disagreements about scripture, especially when in 1611 the most popular version of scripture became most accepted. Which is incredible to stomach because it tells you up front that this is King James “version” of the bible. Not an updated version, James “version.”

    Anyway, gotta go. Gonna be busy for a while and I won’t have this web site on my mind. I would ask the host to delete all comments and possibly consider taking down this site. Its even brought some ugly out of me and even though its legal, its not about lifting up the Kingdom. Its about Trinity versus Oneness, its about Non-tongue talkers vs those who do. Its about much of nothing. In a previous entry someone asked, Turner what are you? And I answer by saying I am a Christian. I am someone that God loved so much that He gave his only begotten son, which now makes me a son and candidate for heaven. I am a witness and do so to thousands of kids on campuses throughout the southeast. I am a gifted musician and songwriter, husband, daddy, grandfather and a survivor of church hurt. I am someone who has been to school and graduated summa cum laude with a degree in theology but someone who understands that if God does not open my understanding to scripture that I will only see things in the literal, which is me beef with web site. It interprets scripture only in text and ignores subtext and context, which is an injustice.

    God bless you all, gotta go. Please take the site down, erase it, or add some guidelines. And again, You’re Welcome. This message has been brought to you by Concerned Christians Against the Pulpit Police. :-)

  75. johnkaniecki said

    Kevin,

    Hello and God bless you.

    I have been part of this blog for a while now. I try to be compassionate and gentle in my blogs.

    There is a place for everything under God. I personally have been blessed by God from this website. I have learned truths not only about God but about society as a whole. I also have been introduced to thoughts and ideas that I never even knew existed.

    Kevin I just went back to examine my blogs to see if there was anything that I wrote which could have been offensive to you. I only saw blog #69 which I feel is very mild. Yet if it offended you I will apologize. I don’t want to hurt anyone just to Love people.

    Yet in doing so I come across blog number three, which belongs to you. Contrary to your opinion I do not feel that Healtheland is neither a “crackpot” nor a “coward”. Not a very good opening staement at all!

    Despite you degree and honary PHD sir, I feel compelled to remind that “Faith without deeds is death,” and “Do unto other as you would have them do unto you,” are two Biblical concepts worthy for your consideration.

    I encourage you in your ministries. I hope that God will bless you. I hope you could make the same statement to this website.

    Let me say one more thing about what I observed now looking again at the comments. Your comments are absent of scripture referecnes while both Healtheland and the IndependentConservative have a multitude of them.

    I have dealt with both Healtheland or Job and The Inedpendent Conservative. I can testify that they have a high regard for scripture and a zeal for the truth. If you had a genuine love for their souls you would produce some.

    Let me give you this warning. Jesus was on the fringe of society. His people were the oppressed and down trodden.

    Love,

    John

  76. Charles D. said

    Kevin:

    I disagree with the broad brush with which you have painted everyone that visit or comment on this blogsite. In fact, I don’t think the last dialogue you and I had was as you have described above. I’m not sure why you feel you have a “thank you” owed you under the circumstance. I was warned, however, I agreed with what you had to said on an earlier post.

    What this all proves is that you are no different than anyone you have described and under the “right” circumstance, you would do exactly the things you disdain here.

    Guess my question to you is: If you in fact, feel the way you described above (for the second time); then, why do you keep coming back? Especially, after you said you would not do so. Does that make you a liar as well?

    Charles

  77. Walter H. Mosby II said

    For those of you that believe in the “trinity”, please explain to me the following scriptures: St. John 1:1 thru 14, 10:1, 14:1 thru 13, 2 Corinthians 5:19, I John 5:6 thru 8. If Moses could not see God face to face and live how will Christians see God in eternity? The only way to see God is to see Jesus Christ. The whole Word of God is about Jesus Christ. Old Testament is Christ predicted as The Messiah, the new testament is Jesus Christ revealed! There is only ONE GOD and Jesus Christ is His name!

  78. Charles D. said

    Mr. Mosby asks:

    “If Moses could not see God face to face and live how will Christians see God in eternity?”

    The indwelling of the Holy Spirit should be perfecting beliver’s in Christ, right about…………now! Man cannot see God and live because man is in a corruptable body and is a sinner and is subject to sin. In the case of Moses, he murdered a man, among other things. At the conclusion of the Holy Spirit’s Ministry, and we are perfected, not only will we not sin or even want to sin, we will not experience no sickness or sorrow.

    The earth or where we are nature will be transformed to it’s intended state. Evere heard the song about lamb and the lion laying together and weapons turned into pruning shires? When sin entered the world, everything was corrupted. Sin has a way of doing things that is the opposite of goodness.

    I am sure some of my more scriptural co-laborers will be on later to comment. I could go on and on about our glorified bodies and the transformations we can expect. Both, IC, Job and others have addressed this same question on a different thread.

    Continue to seek Brother. Start in, or at least do not exclude 1 Corinthians 15.

    Charles

  79. Karl said

    Mosby,

    denial of the Holy Trinity is a variation on a 4th century heresy by Photinus, Bishop of Sirmium. He maintained that God is singular and sole, and is to be regarded as the Jews regarded Him. He denied the completeness of the Trinity, and did not believe that there is any Person of God the Word, or any Person of the Holy Ghost. He affirmed Christ to be a mere man, deriving His existence from The Virgin Mary. He insisted with the utmost obstinacy that we are to render worship only to the Person of God the Father, and that we are to honor Christ as man only. Call it a re-manifestation of the Heresy of Photinus.

    The Catholic Church expounds on the Mysteries of The Holy Trinity and Incarnation of Christ as follows. In God there is ONE substance, but THREE distinct Persons (not distinct substances). In Christ there are TWO distinct substances, but ONE Person In the Saviour there is the divine substance and human substances (two distinct substances). How is it, that the Trinity is three distinct Persons, and not three distinct substances? Because there is one Person of the Father, another of the Son, another of the Holy Ghost; ONE, and the same, Divine Nature.

    Likewise, in Jesus Christ, there are two distinct substances, and not two distinct Persons because there is one substance of the Godhead, and another of the human. Yet the Godhead and the manhood are not two distinct Persons, but one and the same Person of Christ and Son of God. In man, who is soul and flesh, the flesh is one substance and the soul another substance, both constituting one and the same person. The following illustration may help in understanding these mysteries (mysteries are not meant to be understood by humans, without divine help). In Barack Obama, or Hillary Clinton, the soul is one thing, and the flesh another. But one cannot say that there are two Barack Obamas, one soul, and the other flesh. Nor can one say, there are two Hillary Clintons, one soul, and the other flesh. We say it is one and the same Barack Obama, or one and the same Hilary Clinton, each consisting of two diverse natures, soul and body. So, in the one and same Christ, there are two substances, one divine, the other human. One of God the Father, the other of the Virgin Mother. One co-eternal and co-equal with the Father, the other temporal and inferior to the Father. One consubstantial with his Father, the other, consubstantial with his Mother. But one and the same Person, Jesus Christ, in both substances.

    The vision of God, an intuitive and direct knowledge of the divinity, is the essence of heavenly joy. Theologians call this direct, intuitive knowledge of God the beatific vision. Through it God’s nature is united to ours, and communicates His essence to us. Paul says that on earth we see God as in a mirror, however in heaven we will see Him face to face – 1 Corinthians 13:12 John clarified this truth,

    Behold what manner of charity the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called, and should be the sons of God . . . and it hath not yet appeared what we shall be. We know that, when he shall appear in Heaven, we shall be like to him; because we shall see Him as He is – 1 John 3:1-2.

    Beatific vision cannot be experience in our ordinary human state because of our sinful nature vis a vis God’s Infinite Sanctity. To enjoy the beatific vision, we must first receive a special grace called the light of glory, that completes sanctifying grace and entirely spiritualizes us. In this knowledge and love of God, we will see truly the Persons of the Blessed Trinity we talked about. In this vision, we will perceive and understand the Father generating the Son. We will perceive Their mutual Love which has such an intensity that the Holy Ghost proceeds from Them. We will understand other mysteries, which on earth our limited intelligence cannot grasp.

    And FYI, Only he who professes the one true faith, assiduously avoids sin, and does good, everywhere and always, will enjoy the Beatific Vision. So, who exactly is it that shall ascend to heaven? The innocent in hands, and clean of heart, who hath not taken his soul in vain, nor sworn deceitfully to his neighbor. He shall receive a blessing from the Lord, and mercy from God his Saviour. – Psalm 23

    The rest can expect God’s wrath in its totality. And what a wrath! For they will wish they had never been born. For much as not to be is very evil in so far as it removes existence, it is very good in so far as it removes the raging torments suffered by the damned in Hell, which is the greatest of evils. Therefore, not to be, non-existence, is preferred by the damned since it offers them an escape route from Divine Wrath. We do well and always to heed at all times, the wise man who says, Remember thy last end, and thou shalt never sin – Ecclesiastes 7:40

    Charles, hope this does not earn me the ridicule, derision, and mockery that have become your defining hallmark.

  80. Charles D. said

    No! But then, your defining hallmark is ever present; attracting people to the cult as usual and still writing those doggone novellas. Making the answer to an easy question, more difficult and chalked full of sinful logic.

    Were I a betting man, I would wager that Mr. Mosby will not read the garbled weasel words that you’ve served up. His was a serious question and I fully believe the seek and ye shall find principle is in operations.

    Charles

  81. Thomas D. said

    I appreciate your zeal, but I must ask the question: “where is the division that T.D. Jakes or Noel Jones is causing. I understand that the others mentioned have unwisely taken their personal issues to the secular public whereas it should have been handled in the body of Christ, but Jakes and Jones: what are we looking for?

    I John 5:7 makes it very clear that there is a Godhead. I believe in the Godhead. I have never heard Jones or Jakes deny that Jesus is the Son of the living God; neither have I heard either deny the Holy Spirit. You don’t have to use the word Trinity to believe what is truthfully revealed in the Bible (1 John 5:7). The word Trinity is not in the Bible, but the word Godhead is.

    We already have a world which hates the body of Christ. Let us not become involved in a great Christian civil war. Expose the true heretics. Those that are teaching antinomian doctrines, gay and lesbian approval in the kingdom of God, same sex marriage, and inclusion beliefs.

  82. Job said

    Thomas D.

    “Those that are teaching antinomian doctrines, gay and lesbian approval in the kingdom of God, same sex marriage, and inclusion beliefs.”

    That would include T. D. Jakes AND Noel Jones. Look, Jakes was made a Christian entertainment heavyweight by that wicked empire at Trinity Broadcasting Network, run by a man in Paul Crouch who got drunk in a public bar and had sex with a man that he picked up. Crouch paid the fellow off to keep him quiet. Jakes has accepted within his little “circle” a preacher whose church accepts homosexuals, and Jakes also works with Dr. Phil McGraw who also promotes homosexuality. Oh yeah, and need I remind you that Jakes gave us Paula White and Juanita Bynum?

    Incidentally, what is your definition of heresy and apostasy? Mine is those who knowingly reject what the Bible says. Two things that the Bible clearly says are that the prosperity doctrine is a lie (see 1 Timothy 6) and that women should not preach, and that the slain in the spirit out of order charismatic activity is wrong (see 1 Corinthians). So Thomas D., are you an apostate heretic? If you are willing to impose on homosexuals and antinomians what the Bible says about their behavior but not yourself when it comes to following women preachers, believing that godliness is gain, and people running around screaming falling out and convulsing and knocking over furniture and ripping off their clothes (and I know of what I am speaking for I was raised in a Pentecostal Holiness church), then you are that plus a hypocrite!

    So Thomas D., seek after a church that answers to the Bible, not any human authority or personality. And by the way: Noel Jones and T.D. Jakes reject what the Bible clearly says about the Godhead anyway. When the Son was being baptized, the Father spoke from heaven and the Spirit descended upon Him. When the Son was dying on the cross, the Father turned His Face in heaven and the water (Holy Spirit) came out of Him when His side was pierced. And in Daniel’s vision, the Son of Man (Jesus Christ) was presented before the enthroned Ancient of Days (the Father).

    Modalism is a lie, and I have an excellent article from a former oneness pentecostal that talks about how how the current oneness pentecostal doctrines developed: over time because of a bunch of unbalanced preaching that focused solely on Jesus Christ to the exclusion of the Father and the Holy Spirit. The problem is that the document is an image file so I can’t cut and paste it, it is not publicly online so I cannot link to it, and it is also copyrighted so I cannot convert it to an HTML file and post it. So I am trying to figure out how to get the information from that journal article online without violating copyright laws. Even better, Greg Boyd, a former oneness pentecostal who is now a leading pastor and theologian, has written a book on that apostate movement. I will be purchasing it shortly.

    But look, even apart from what they preach on the godhead, oneness pentecostalism is filled with tons of other doctrinal problems. Bottom line: there is no reason to follow them. There are plenty of preachers for you to join yourself to and support. The only reason why you do is because they are famous, they are on TV, and to you they are celebrities. Well, were Jesus Christ, Peter, Paul, etc. rich celebrities? Or were they poor, despised, common underclass people that were rejected, hated, imprisoned, and executed? Think about it.

  83. Charles D. said

    Sharp as ever I see. Good vision. Frankly, I had missed it.

    The only thing I would ask Tom D., is who ordained J.D Jakes? When he sees the list of witnesses (that’s the way they do in Jakes’ Potters House Group) he will find a whos who of the prosperity ministry luminaries. Then he will find that they cross-ordained, crossed witnessed each other.

    Charles

  84. eve said

    The Word of God tells us that gifts and callings are without repentence. The Word also tells us to touch not the annointed ad do His prophets no harm.

    I would be very careful with the words and accusations….for we know who is the accuser of the brethren.

    God Himself will do the exposing. His Word will do the judging and WE ALL HAVE to give an account of ALL of our actions and our words.

    Also remember that death and life are in the power of the tongue. So instead of tearing down these men and women of God, maybe you should spend more time fasting and praying for a breakthrough…..

  85. Eve, reading is fundamental: “Touch Not My Anointed”..The command of God or the cries of the misled??

  86. Hyacinth Bucket said

    I don’t know a whole lot about this Oneness vs. Trinity debate. But, can someone answer this please? If Oneness pentecostals are monothiestic and Jews are monothiestic, why is Oneness classified as a cult and Jews are not? Thanks to a friend, I now know these terms. LOL!!

  87. [...] I just read this in a comment on another blog.  Speaking of honorary doctorates, the guy said: In addition, playa hata, if I was trying to hide a honorary degree, I most certainly would not [...]

  88. Gapdweller (Jackie) said

    Oooooo, I shouldn’t get into this but here goes. I would just like to say. Instead of trying to read the word without the unction of the person who wrote the book…You know God hiself, who became flesh in Jesus..If you want word just read John 1. Yes the whole chapter! Then read John 3:5. which tells you what you got to have to even understand God! who is a spirit. Close your mouth until you get the revelation of the word, stop quoting it without the revelation. And I know you don’t have the revelation without the Holy Ghost, who will lead you to all truth! Then and only then can you judge God’s servants. The word says:

    Rom 14:4 Who art thou that judgest another man’s servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.

    Since you can put your mouth on the different men and women of God then, you lack the anointing to be called a Son of God.

    Oh yeah, just an assoicate degree in legal studies, and a Phd in kneelogy and praylogy

  89. Job said

    Gapdweller:

    Perhaps one day you will submit yourself to what the Bible actually says, and serve God rather than these preachers who by their word and actions have proven themselves over a long time to be demonstrably false. After all, a few short years ago I was following these people myself.

  90. “Touch Not My Anointed”..The command of God or the cries of the misled??

  91. Looks like I posted that link for Eve a little earlier. Gapdweller, I have posted it above again for you to read.

  92. Touch not Mine Anointed

    This was taken from another site and I concur with it fully:

    Last week two posters posted the standby line “touch not mine anointed” whenever someone like me has the audacity to question one of their heroes, the very first in this sites nearly five month’s existence. I feel so blessed and have been waiting for such a time as this to break down this verse and teach on just what this really means, which will add yet another reason to avoid the false teachers who wrongly use this verse to attempt to silence their critics.

    Psalm 105:15 Saying, Touch not mine anointed, and do my prophets no harm.

    What does the above verse mean? Does this verse mean that we aren’t to question our spiritual leaders on matters of doctrine? Or does it mean something entirely different and is being misused in order to silence critics?

    The word for touch in Hebrew is naga. It means to strike, beat or bring down violently. It doesn’t mean not to criticize doctrine or to publicly examine another’s teachings.

    The word for anointed is mashiyach, which means a consecrated person, such as a king, priest or saint.

    Touch not my anointed means not to physically harm someone that has been set aside, such as a King, priest or saint. David stated that he would not kill Saul, but he definitely rebuked him (1Samuel 24:9-15).

    Twisting Scripture to suit their needs is how the heretics get the sheeple to fork over their hard earned dollars so it should come as no surprise that they would come up with a verse to manipulate the sheeple into believing that they are not to question their teachings. This is the case here.

    We are all called to be like the Bereans and to search and test the teachings of others. Paul commended the Bereans and consistently exhorted the readers of his epistles to do the same. David rebuked Saul. Nathan rebuked David. Paul rebuked Peter. There are countless other instances of rebuking others to bring about repentance. It’s biblical and necessary with the mess that is going on within the Body of Christ today.

    Anyone who tells you not to question a spiritual leaders teaching is someone you should avoid. Any spiritual leader who refuses to answer your questions about their doctrine is not the person you should be learning from. These are false teachers and will take all of your money and lead you straight to hell.

    Psalm 105:15 is being wrongly used and amounts to nothing short of spiritual terrorism.

    I hope you enjoyed reading this.

    Psalms 105:15 was written concerning Israel. From it beginning as a small tribe God watched over them because He had a role for them. The scripture is used out of context by many Christians as if they are the anointed ones David is writing about.

  93. DANIEL AKUMATEY said

    GREETING FROM GHANA TO YOU AND YOUR MINISTRY,HOPE BY GOD GRACE EVERY THING IS DOING ON WELL WITH YOU AND YOUR MINISTRY.THE REASON WHY I AM SENDING YOU THIS MAIL IS THAT I AM A MAN OF GOD, PASTOR WE NEED YOUR HELP, IF POSSIBLE PLEASE SEND US SOME BIBLES AND ITEMS WHICH CAN HELP MY MINISTRY TO GROW IN CHRIST.
    THIS MY ADDRESS P.O.BOX 568 KASOA GHANA
    THANK TO YOU,
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    PASTOR DANIEL AKUMATEY.

  94. Kevin Turner said

    Hi Everybody! Whew, it’s seems like it’s been a lifetime since I’ve had time to stop by. I see everyone is still “at it.” It’s more bitter in this site than the presidential election. Nonetheless, I have to admit I just like stirring up the fire every now and then. Well, gotta go. To everyone that loves Jesus in their own way (Trinitarians, Apostolics, Church of God, Church of God in Christ, Theologians, Praying Mom & Dad’s, and the Lettered and Unlettered), know that I love and appreciate Him too. Hope everyone has a great time with your families and church families over the holidays, cause’ I’m certain there’s some brand new meaness around the corner just waiting to be released in 2009.

    Rev. Patrick Williams, that was real nice lesson. What an excellent reminder that we should know text, subtext and context. I love preachers and teachers that are word-smiths. Gotta go. See you in 2009 or 2011

  95. Job said

    Kevin Turner:

    You didn’t answer my email.

  96. Kevin Turner (real name) said

    Believe it or not (which really is unimportant), I just saw this article while researching something on the web this morning. I’m sure it’ll stir up the pot of conversation on this site. I know I know I know, this is your turf and everyone who doesn’t believe exactly as you dom or interprets, translates, or transliterates scripture like you do is considered a cult member or heritic…Still I thought I’d share the note while I had time to do so. As I said a long time ago, I’m neither impressed or afraid of your remarks. Some of you are a little to light theologically to be leaving remarks as you do for the entire world to see. Get out a little more often, see the world, you might even like some of the people that you hate on this web site, rather than be so sensationalistic. Anyway, gotta go. I was with my Apostolic buddies last week but a dear friend of mine is delivering the homily at Sixth Avenue Baptist in the morning.

    Grace & Peace!
    (P.S. Job, I didn’t receive your e-mail. Please resend. I might respond back)

    My Views on the Godhead
    Jakes responds to Christianity Today article, Apologetics Journal Criticizes Jakes.
    By Bishop T. D. Jakes | Hearsay, not heresy. | posted 2/01/2000 12:00AM

    Related articles and links | 1 of 2

    ADVERTISEMENT
    I was raised Baptist and became Pentecostal 26 years ago at a Greater Emmanuel Apostolic Church, where I was later ordained a Bishop. I resigned from that denomination 11 years ago, and have continued to fellowship with Higher Ground Always Abounding Assemblies. This small fellowship of churches is not a denomination, and differs in many ways from traditional Apostolic churches.

    Both chapters of my early spiritual journey contributed volumes to my faith and walk with God, helping to hone my character. I was shaped by and appreciate both denominations, but am controlled by neither. My association with Oneness people does not constitute assimilation into their ranks any more than my association with the homeless in our city makes me one of them.

    Day-to-day, my affiliation is with the Pater Alliance, an interdenominational network of some 250 churches, which I founded three years ago and serve as CEO, senior minister, and mentor, providing leadership for pastors from Presbyterian, to Baptist, to Pentecostal. My own 23,000-member church, The Potter’s House in Dallas, is non-denominational and growing exponentially. There, I serve widely different people whose common desire is to know God, and to grow in the knowledge of, and fellowship with, Jesus Christ.

    While I mix with Christians from a broad range of theological perspectives, I speak only for my personal faith and convictions. I am not a theologian, and I avoid quoting even theologians who agree with me. To defend my beliefs, I go directly to the Bible.

    My views on the Godhead are from 1 John 5:7-8, “For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one.” (NKJV)

    I believe in one God who is the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. I believe these three have distinct and separate functions—so separate that each has individual attributes, yet are one. I do not believe in three Gods.

    Many things can be said about the Son that cannot be said about the Father. The Son was born of a virgin; the Father created the virgin from whom He was born. The Son slept (Luke 8:23), but the Father never sleeps (Psalm 121:3-5). The Son took on the likeness of sinful flesh (Romans 8:3), but God is a spirit (John 4:24). Likewise, several characteristics are distinctive to the Holy Spirit (John 16:13). The Holy Spirit alone empowers (Acts 1:8), indwells (2 Timothy 1:15), and guides the believer (John 16:14).

    In spite of all the distinctives, God is one in His essence. Though no human illustration perfectly fits the Divine, it is similar to ice, water and steam: three separate forms, yet all H²O. Each element can co-exist, each has distinguishing characteristics and functions, but all have sameness.

    In 1 Timothy 3:16, the Apostle Paul says, “Without controversy, great is the mystery of Godliness.” Without controversy, it is a mystery, not always to be figured out, but to be entered into.

    The language in the doctrinal statement of our ministry that refers to the Trinity of the Godhead as “manifestations” does not derive from modalism. The Apostle Paul himself used this term referring to the Godhead in 1 Timothy 3:15, 1 Corinthians 12:7, and 1 John 3:5-8. Peter also used the term in 1 Peter 1:20. Can this word now be heresy when it is a direct quote from the Pauline epistles and used elsewhere in the New Testament?

    I believe Jesus Christ is the only begotten Son of God. I believe He was born of a virgin, crucified on a cross, arose from the dead, and is coming again for His church. I believe He sent the Holy Spirit to lead and guide the Church. And I believe in justification by faith. I also believe that baptism is a commandment to be observed in obedience to God’s Word. The rites of baptism are celebrated in our church by immersion in the name of Jesus Christ. I have always, without exception, baptized as the early church did in Acts 2:38, 10:44 and 9:1-4. That is my conviction, based on Scripture.
    Nevertheless, many of my respected colleagues quote Matthew 28:19 when they baptize, while others use both, saying, “In the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost, we do all things in Jesus’ name.” Our love for the same Lord has enabled us to walk together in love without dissension and in spite of variance in procedures.

    I deeply appreciate the chance to respond to any misunderstandings that may have resulted in part from my silence on these subjects. Little if any attention is given to any of them in my books or sermons. My silence has not been some veiled attempt to disguise my faith, which is demonstrated daily in the works I have been called to do. My voice may have seemed muted on these subjects, but I have made a distinct sound regarding the matters that I have been assigned to discuss with my generation. I have spoken boldly against domestic violence—and against physical, sexual and emotional abuse of women in this nation. I have thundered as an advocate of reconciliation between races and denominations, and for restoration of hurting souls to the healing properties of Christ’s love.

    I confess that I have remained aloof from the theological controversies. And I confess I have been universal in my associations, purposely ignoring opportunities to be divisive. But it was not lack of conviction, or absence of proper Christian ideals, that had taken my attention—I love the great principles and tenets of our faith, and I am not ashamed of the gospel of Jesus Christ. Yet it is not the oneness of God for which I cry, it is for the oneness of His people.

    When I think of the Trinity, I consider how Jesus prayed under the unction of the Holy Spirit that we would be one even as He and the Father are one. To that end, I preach, write and work. No truth exemplified by the Trinity is greater than Christian unity. As we seek to dissect the divine, articulate the abstract, and defend what I agree are precious truths, I hope we do not miss the greater message taught by the concept of the Trinity. And that is that three—though distinct—are still one!

    Bishop T.D. Jakes is the founder and Senior Pastor of The Potter’s House in Dallas, one of the largest churches in the nation.

  97. i have read many things on this site. i would to GOD that every one would hear themselves.what matthew 28 :19commands acts 2:38 obey’s.notice in matt 28:16 JESUS is speaking to 11 remaining ,original disciples.This is the “GREAT COMMISSION”,not a sermon, or an altar call, or a baptismal service. plus if what PETER said was wrong and not revealed like in MATTHEW 16:16-19, THEN WE HAVE ERROR’S IN SCRIPTURE.AND YOU KNOW THAT IS NOT VALID OR TRUE.Think of this if you would, if the TRINITY concept is orthodox or biblical doctrine then i have aquestion for you. If you baptise by saying FATHER, SON, HOLY GHOST, and baptism is likened to a burial, then did the FATHER die on the cross? NO! Did the SON die on the cross? YES!Did the HOL GHOST die on the cross? NO!SO sinse JESUS died on the cross then ROMANS 6:4 lets us know that we are BURIED WITH HIM BY BAPTISM INTO DEATH…Then that shows indentification.This has to be WATER BAPTISM because it uses DEATH and BURIED(V.5)And the baptism of the HOLY GHOST brings LIFE and POWER to live above sin, meaning not having influence (dominion ROMANS 6:14)ON US! THIS IS RIGHTLY DIVIDED AND CORRECT AND WHEN ARE YOU READY TO BECOME SCRIPTURALLY CRRECT? Baptism is a SALVATION ISSUE and not a theological debate. because while we argue over what has been shown in scripture, someone that does not know JESUS for salvation will surf the net trying to justify that being saved is not needed,and find “CHRISTIAN CAMPS”fighting over thing’s, and think we are all stupid! PREACH JESUS AND HIS RESURRECTION AND YOU WILL SEE THIS TRUTH COLLOSIANS 2:9,2:12,3:17

  98. PASCAH said

    So technically everyone who has a successful ministry is a false prophet on this site…Then I wonder…who are the true teachers or church?

  99. jesusblogger said

    How can you call men who did not live during the time of Jesus, and who were not leaders in the church such as Tertulian who was a heretic – ‘church fathers’?

    Also, although all of the Post Apostolic Age writers and Creeds do not agree with the Oneness doctrine, they also do not agree with the Word of God. Shame you have gone outside of the Word of God for a defence of Truth.

  100. i love your website. its packed with a lot of truths. keep up the good work and may the Lord bless you.

  101. MP said

    Title – No Title
    Degree – No Degree

    Say what you want it is all hatred!!! With a capital “H”.

    If it’s not written in the Word it is a LIE!!! And any Teacher, Preacher, Prophet, Evangelist or Apostle who is false will eventually be exposed. You call yourself a Leader but you slander another. When you standing before the judgement seat of Christ do you think you words will hold any truth. Pervert God’s Words all you want you cause yourself to me cursed and GOD HIMSELF will have the last word…

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