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What Mormons, Jehovah’s Witnesses, Jews, Muslims, and Oneness Pentecostals Don’t Understand

Posted by Job on May 4, 2007

Everyone who denies the Tri – Unity of Elohim denies the power of the Blood. They deny the very reason why the blood of animals was shed for those thousands of years under the Jewish sacrificial system. They deny the very reason why Yeshua HaMashiach’s Blood was shed on the cross. And they reject the very reason why only the Blood of Yeshua HaMashiach sets us free. I Peter 1:18 – 19 says “Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot.”  

What was so valuable about this Blood of Yeshua HaMashiach? Well please recall that Leviticus 17:11 says that the LIFE is in the blood “For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul. ” From where LIFE comes is where POWER comes, and the POWER is in the Blood. And what is the POWER of the shed Blood of Yeshua HaMashiach? It was the same POWER of the Godhead.

Realize that Yeshua HaMashiach was not born of the seed of man, but of the Holy Spirit. Therefore, His Blood was not the corrupt blood of Adam, but the pure life – giving POWER of GOD. The POWER, the LIFE of the FATHER YHVH, the WORD who on earth was called Yeshua HaMashiach, and the SPIRIT Ruach Hakadosh was COURSING THROUGH THE VEINS OF THE ONE COMMONLY CALLED JESUS CHRIST. Hence, Jesus Christ was fully man because of His Flesh. But He was simultaneously FULLY GOD BECAUSE OF THE BLOOD THAT GAVE LIFE TO THE FLESH. And THAT was why He was without sin. There was no sin in His Flesh because there was no sin in His Blood because His Blood was the Blood, the Life, of the Triune Godhead.

And that, dear people, is why Jesus Christ cannot be the “savior” of any false religion or cult that denies Tri – Unity. If you deny Tri – Unity, Oneness Pentecostals, you cannot explain how the Blood of Yeshua HaMashiach that liberated you was still holy despite Yeshua HaMashiach’s being born of a sinful woman (no Catholics, Mary was not immaculately conceived free of original sin, because her father was a man and not God) and walking the earth as fully man. You cannot explain how the human flesh of Yeshua HaMashiach was free from sin – though He was tempted at every point just as man was – and how despite taking on the sins of every man who ever lived and ever would live, He remained holy. No, He was not simply a manifestation of Father YHVH. No, He was not simply a “relationship”, such as how the same man can be father, son, husband, etc. to someone else. Why? Because were He a manifestation or relationship, He could not have turned His face away from Himself in Heaven while He was dying on the cross. (He also could not have done this were Yeshua HaMashiach a mere PIECE  of Himself, the yolk or shell or white of an egg that Oneness Pentecostals now use). Why? Because were that the case, when Yeshua HaMashiach took on sin, then the whole Godhead would have taken on sin. But as only the human temporal flesh of Yeshua HaMashiach took on sin, the rest of the Godhead did not. And as the rest of the Godhead did not, the Blood of Yeshua HaMashiach, the Life and Power of Yeshua HaMashiach, remained pure. And because His Blood remained pure even after He took on sin, He was still blameless. And the power of His still pure Blood was able to raise Him from the dead (Hebrews 13:20 “Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant.“). If the modalist lies on the nature of God were true, then this would have been impossible, for there would have been no separation between the defilement of sin in the Godhead, and no prevention of the defilement of the Blood. But it is the Triune nature of HaShem that makes this and all things possible!

I am even going to throw an abortion reference in here. For you “life begins at birth, the fetus is part of the mother’s body until the cord is cut” people, explain how in many cases the child of a mother infected with HIV/AIDS is still born healthy? Because the PLACENTA is a BARRIER between the DISEASED blood of the mother and the healthy blood of the child. Were they one person, they would share the same blood, and both would be infected. But because they are different people with different blood with a barrier between the blood of the infant and the blood of the child, then it is possible in many cases for the child to be born healthy. As a matter of fact, it has been shown that a great many cases where a baby receives AIDS from its mother is during the delivery, and the medical community has precautions to prevent that from happening! So just as with a pregnant women you have two – or more – distinct people occupying the same space, the Godhead is three people in one! And realize this: Yeshua HaMashiach was on EARTH. So, when Yeshua HaMashiach took on sin, there was a gulf, a spiritual placenta, between the SIN that Yeshua HaMashiach took on, YOUR SIN, and the Holy Righteous Father. THAT was why the Father was able to turn away. So, modalist, a great many of you are “social conservatives” who oppose abortion. If you can believe that a mother and her unborn child are different persons, why do you reject the same regarding your God?

And as for all of you who claim salvation in a Christ whose divinity you deny, this shows that it does not work. Were Yeshua HaMashiach an angel, Satan’s spirit brother, or the first thing that God the Father created, Yeshua HaMashiach would not have had the Blood and the Power of the Father within Him. Were He merely a man, He would not have had the Life of the Father in Him. Therefore, He would not have been sinless and incorruptible.

Further, realize that the Bible clearly states that the value of a life corresponds to the value of its blood. Study the sacrificial system (Leviticus 4:13-14, 27-28): the blood of a sheep or goat is less value than that of an ox, and the life of a sheep or goat is of less value than an ox. And men? Our lives are worth more than that of any animal (despite what people who would put you in jail TEN YEARS for killing a PUPPY claim), and yes our lives are worth more than the angels that we will judge(I Corinthians 6:3). Why? Because we alone were created in God’s Image. Our lives are more valuable than any other life apart from God’s. That is why no animal’s blood can redeem us. That is why no man’s blood can redeem us. That is why no angel’s blood or created being’s blood can redeem us. Only the Blood of the Pre – existing, Self – existing, eternal God can redeem us.

Only the Blood of God could have resurrected Christ. Only the Blood of God overcome death, hell, and the grave. And only the Blood of God can redeem sinners. Only with the Blood of God is there redemption. Only with the Blood of God is there power. Only with the Blood of God is there reconciliation with God. And it is only the Blood of God that joins us to the spirit of God (I John 5:8, Hebrews 9:14). And without the Blood of God, our faith, our lives, our very existences are in vain, even cursed. And by rejecting the deity of Yeshua HaMashiach and by rejecting the Tri – Unity of Elohim, you are rejecting the very Blood that could and would cover your sins and save and deliver you.

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20 Responses to “What Mormons, Jehovah’s Witnesses, Jews, Muslims, and Oneness Pentecostals Don’t Understand”

  1. Gregor said

    Do you realize how insane this sounds? Honestly, I am not intending to fuel the flames or disrespectful; it is just that this argument makes no sense whatsoever. It seems to be trying to prove a conclusion rather than looking at objective fact and discerning the truth from it.

    From my childhood this very issue has been my biggest problem with Christianity. Why would an all powerful God require a blood sacrifice in order to save/forgive humanity? This blood worship is a throwback to human/animal sacrifice from pagan Pre-Christian days. The answer is simply an all powerful God would not need to resort to human sacrifice, the entire question negates any validity or believability. It sounds a much more like mythology,superstition, and fanaticisms to me.

    I only bring this up because I have always been dissatisfied with any explanation given to me for the reason behind Christ’s death on the Cross. Usually we are told that we merely need to have faith in the Bible and the Church. Faith is great, but it cannot be the defense of such a question as this.

  2. Gregor:

    “Pagan pre – Christian days”? So, you are calling JEWS pagans? Further, have you not read the gospels? Christianity is supposed to sound insane to those who reject it. Jesus Christ said so Himself. And you are not dissatisfied with my explanation, you are dissatisfied with the BIBLE. People such as yourself should cease to pretend that your disagreement is with people who adhere to the Bible and acknowledge that your problem is with the Bible itself.

  3. Gregor said

    Actually I was referring to stone age religions and prehistoric blood cults. One of the groundbreaking things about Judaism was its rejection of sacrifice and other inhumane behaviors.

    I’ve read the gospels. I am not convinced about their divine authorship. Like any other religious text they are the work of men. Perhaps, wise and great men; but still men. I think it is important that we note the history surrounding how the bible was edited and compiled at the Council of Nicaea. The Nicaean Creed was as much a political document as a spiritual one.

    I am dissatisfied with your explanation because as far as I can tell the only substance backing it are quotes from a book that I don’t believe in. My position about this was not hidden in my previous comment. Why do you believe I was “pretending” or not being honest in anyway about my dissatisfaction with the bible and Christianity’s explanation for the need of Christ’s sacrifice?

    I did not mean to attack you or your argument. But, to question the larger issue behind behind Christ’s sacrifice. In all honesty. I don’t have that much of a grudge against the Bible per say, or even those that attempt to adhere to it. But, why must they judge and belittle the rest of us?

    I do strongly disagree with the close minded belief that there is only one way to see the world. A mindset that divides humankind into groups of saved vs the damned is fundamentally flawed. The idea is not only preposterous but extremely dangerous as it creates a situation where people tend to devalue and disrespect the lives of people from outside their own group.

    I apologize if by bringing a little debate to this issue you have taken offense. However, a friendly dialog never does any harm. Sometimes its good to have somebody to bounce a few questions back and forth with.

    In Peace,

    Gregor

  4. Gregor:

    “One of the groundbreaking things about Judaism was its rejection of sacrifice and other inhumane behaviors.” That is a lie. Animal sacrifice was central to Judaism until 70 AD, and the only reason why they abandoned it was because the Romans destroyed the temple and scattered the nation. Had the Romans not destroyed the temple and driven the Jews from Israel, Jews would still be sacrificing animals. What Jews did was recreate their religion in the absence of having a temple and being located in Jerusalem. The fellow primarily responsible for doing so recognized the futility of participating in the siege against Jerusalem, and furtively (for fear of his own people, not the Romans) went to the Roman general and secured permission in removing enough documents from the Jewish temple to allow him to recreate Judaism.

    “I’ve read the gospels. I am not convinced about their divine authorship.” So what, then, is your point? You do not believe that the Bible is true. Therefore, to you, Christianity is not a religion but merely a philosophy that can be selectively applied and interpreted as it suits your needs and desires. In other words, something that you can use to serve yourself rather than something that you use to follow and obey God. Therefore, your problem is not blood sacrifice, but the MEANING of blood sacrifice.

    “But, why must they judge and belittle the rest of us?” What are we supposed to do regarding those who do not believe in our religion? Pretend as if you do? Surely you must know that our own religion specifically tells us not to do such a thing. I am only doing what the Bible tells me to do.

    “I don’t have that much of a grudge against the Bible per say, or even those that attempt to adhere to it. I do strongly disagree with the close minded belief that there is only one way to see the world. A mindset that divides humankind into groups of saved vs the damned is fundamentally flawed. The idea is not only preposterous but extremely dangerous as it creates a situation where people tend to devalue and disrespect the lives of people from outside their own group.” What you just said is the equivalent of saying this: I am not a racist; I personally find racism repugnant. I just hate black people.

    “I apologize if by bringing a little debate to this issue you have taken offense.” I have taken no offense at all. I just called you as I saw you, and in doing so was 100% correct. Thank you.

  5. Gregor said

    Again I realize my error in commenting here. It does not appear that you welcome a questioning presence. It is possible to disagree with another gracefully. Instead the tone has deteriorated in a rather negative direction.

    If your intention here is to witness for your faith, you might be better served by amending the style in which you do so.

    It seems like there is very little effort here to engage in a civil and rational conversation. I am sensing a great deal of anger and contempt from you. It is unfortunate, because I had hoped that your intent was not merely to attack,criticize, or pass judgment on others. Maybe you could generate more discussion and touch people’s minds and hearts a little deeper if you approached others with less animosity.

    I can only comment on the words expressed on the page. Just as you have no authority to judge me, I have none over you. Therefore my words are only meant to express my opinion about what has been said here.

    It appears that you’ve not really understood what I’ve been attempting to say. Instead, you have jumped to a lot of conclusion about who I am and what I believe. Some of this may be due to unskillfulness on my part. However, I must admit I really cannot follow the meaning of much that you’ve had to say. From my perception your response was rather disconnected. Are you able to share your point of view without resorting to a contemptuous and incoherent tirade?

    As I am sure my presence here is unwelcome I will refrain from reading your posts and commenting. I’ll let you have the last word, it is your blog. I only hope that this is an experience we can both learn from.

  6. Joe said

    I have read your article and have been intrigued to post a response.
    I am not here to start a war or any sort of violent religious crusade on who’s right or wrong, however we are all entitle to our own opinion. When i speak mine i do speak it boldly and with force. so please do not get the inclination that i am persecutive nor judgmental. In any way. – “Vengeance is mine saith the LORD”

    ——- In Response to Tri-unity
    God

    There is only one God (Deuteronomy 6:4). He is the creator of heaven and earth, and of all living beings. He has revealed Himself to humanity as the Father (Creator), in the son (Savior), and as the Holy Ghost (indwelling Spirit). There is none other god beside Him, not one.

    Father

    God is a Spirit (John 4:24). He is the Eternal One, the Creator of all things, and the Father of all humanity by creation. He is the First and the Last, and beside Him there is no God (Isaiah 44:6). There was no God formed before Him; neither shall be there any after Him (Isaiah 43:10).

    Son

    Jesus is the Son of God according to the flesh (Romans 1:3) and the very God Himself according to the Spirit (Matthew 1:23). Jesus is the Christ (Matthew 16:16); the creator of all things (Colossians 1:16-17); God with us (Matthew 1:23); God made flesh (John 1:1-14); God manifested in the flesh (I Timothy 3:16);He which was, which is, and which is to come, the Almighty (Revelation 1:8);the mighty God, everlasting Father, and Prince of peace (Isaiah 9:6). Jesus Himself testified of His identity as God when He said, “He that hath seen me hath seen the Father” (John 14:7-11) and “I and my Father are one” (John 10:30). It took the shedding of blood for the remission of the sins of the world (Hebrews 9:22), but God the Father was a Spirit and had no blood to shed. Thus He prepared a body of flesh and blood (Hebrews 10:5)and came to earth as a man in order to save us. That is why when He came in flesh the angels sang, “For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Savior, which is Christ the Lord” (Luke 2:11).

    Holy Ghost/Holy Spirit

    The Holy Ghost is not a third person in the Godhead, but rather the Spirit of God (the Creator), the Spirit of the resurrected Christ. The Holy Ghost comes to dwell in the hearts and lives of everyone who believes and obeys the gospel. The Holy Ghost is our comforter, sustainer, and keeper (John 14:16-26; Romans 8:9-11).
    The Holy Ghost is only one of the three manifestations of the one true living God of Israel.

    Point of interest**
    The name Jehovah is considered the sacred name of God. Im sure we are in agreement to that. There are numerous places where there are suffix’s or add ons to the name Jehovah – E.G. Jehovah Nisei, Jehovah Jirah, so on and so forth.
    They are all extra clauses to explain the wondrous works & glory of the Lord.
    In the Hebrew the name “JESUS” Is defined as JEHOVAH-SAVIOR. Therefore Christ bearing the name of his father is the SAVIOR portion of God himself.

    One must approach it as such, I am someone’s son, Someones brother, Also a Minister of the gospel. Three titles yet ONE person. I am at times in the position of a brother, others the position of the son, others my Duty as a minister. There is no difference in my oneness. Nor is their in Christ’s.
    For we are made in God’s image. Christ said himself, “He who hath seen me hath seen the father” also “He who hath seen me hath seen the Father” (Christ’s words)
    Also added – another way to understand this is as follows. My last name is the same as my fathers. Therefore he can call me his son and i can call him my father. In order to do this biologically the son and the father must bear the same name.
    Which brings us to the point of Baptism, Where it was spoken to baptize in THE name of the, Father, Son & Holy Ghost. Notice the wording of ONE NAME. If all above have the same name, the same origin of JEHOVAH,which is in fact the sacred name of God. (Explained already) Father’s name is Jehovah, Sons name Jehovah-Savior, & the Holy Ghost was sent in “Christ’s” name. (John 14:26)They all lead back and originate at the very same place. In order to call upon the Lord of Lords using his title as our FATHER, We must bear the name and be his son. I cannot walk up to you and call you “DAD” Your not. However if somehow i were to bear your name through son ship to you THEN and ONLY THEN would you be my father. When we are Baptized We are REBORN. As Christ explained when he was speaking during the night with Nicodemus.When we are baptized in JESUS name. As the apostles did through the book of acts.We are then being born again, into the family of Christ. The apostles always preached Repentance, Baptism & Reception of the Holy Ghost.

    —–IN RESPONSE TO “””And that, dear people, is why Jesus Christ cannot be the “savior” of any false religion or cult that denies Tri – Unity. If you deny Tri – Unity, Oneness Pentecostals, you cannot explain how the Blood of Yeshua HaMashiach that liberated you was still holy despite Yeshua HaMashiach’s being born of a sinful woman”””

    If you recall during the entirity of the old testament, The way a sacrifice was made ONCE A YEAR was by finding a LAMB without spot or blemish. And only the holy of holiest of priests would then kill the lamb and SPRINKLE the blood on the altar. To represent the DELAY in the judgement on man for his sins. It was known as the SACRIFCIAL DAY OF ATTONMENT. With the sprinkling blood of the LAMB. As it was shown in FULL FORCE when Christ was crucified on the cross. Hence the LAMB OF GOD Without Spot or blemish. If Christ’s blood was so UNIMPORTANT AS A MAN why therefore after his resurrection did he request to NOT BE TOUCHED FOR HE HAD NOT YET ASCENDED TO PLACE THE BLOOD ON THE ALTAR IN HEAVEN. Also as you say if the Blood was not his but Gods. Then that would make Jesus Inferior to being God manifested in the flesh, Not to mention the fact that in the trinity they are supposed to be CO EQUAL & CO EXISTENT are they not? Therefore how can one be superior to the other, If FATHER can save, Why cant Christ? If the Holy spirit brings peace, Why cant the Father?

    As I will not comment further i have almost written a book lol. In SHORT closing, I have but 2 more Questions.

    ***1 : WHERE IN THE BIBLE DOES IT SAY THAT THE BLOOD OF LIFE IS OF THE “TRIUNE GODHEAD” *Also find the word TRINITY in The Bible.

    ***2 : IF CHRIST WAS BORN WITH THE SEED OF THE HOLY GHOST AS YOU HAD SAID, THE HOLY GHOST AND THE FATHER ARE ONE IN THE SAME THEREFORE
    A SON CAN ONLY HAVE ONE FATHER CAN IT NOT? WHAT EXACTLY IS THEIR RELATION ONE TO ANOTHER?

    I leave you in blessings & peace May the Lord bless you day in & day out.

    Joe

  7. Zadkiel said

    Please read all of Lev 17:11 ” For the life of the flesh is in the blood; and I have given it to you upon the altar to make atonement for your souls; for it is the blood that maketh atonement by reason of the life. Therefore I said unto the children of Israel: No soul of you shall eat blood, neither shall any stranger that sojourneth among you eat blood.” You cited something out of context. This refers to eating blood not sacrifices.

    “They deny the very reason why the blood of animals was shed for those thousands of years under the Jewish sacrificial system.”

    There are several types of animal sacrifices: Olah: Burnt Offering, Zebach Sh’lamim: Peace Offering, Chatat: Sin Offering, and Asham: Guilt Offering. We don’t “deny” animal sacrifices. We deny your notion that there’s only one type of sacrifice.

    “the blood of a sheep or goat is less value than that of an ox, and the life of a sheep or goat is of less value than an ox.”

    Your interpretation doesn’t make sense.

    “And only the Blood of God can redeem sinners”

    The bible disagrees.
    Hosea 14:3 Take with you words, and return unto HaShem; say unto Him: ‘Forgive all iniquity, and accept that which is good; so will we render for bullocks the offering of our lips.

    1Kings 8:46-50 If they sin against Thee–for there is no man that sinneth not–and Thou be angry with them, and deliver them to the enemy, so that they carry them away captive unto the land of the enemy, far off or near; yet if they shall bethink themselves in the land whither they are carried captive, and turn back, and make supplication unto Thee in the land of them that carried them captive, saying: We have sinned, and have done iniquitously, we have dealt wickedly; if they return unto Thee with all their heart and with all their soul in the land of their enemies, who carried them captive, and pray unto Thee toward their land, which Thou gavest unto their fathers, the city which Thou hast chosen, and the house which I have built for Thy name; then hear Thou their prayer and their supplication in heaven Thy dwelling-place, and maintain their cause; and forgive Thy people who have sinned against Thee, and all their transgressions wherein they have transgressed against Thee; and give them compassion before those who carried them captive, that they may have compassion on them

    Isaiah 43:23-25 Thou hast not brought Me the small cattle of thy burnt-offerings; neither hast thou honoured Me with thy sacrifices. I have not burdened thee with a meal-offering, nor wearied thee with frankincense. Thou hast bought Me no sweet cane with money, neither hast thou satisfied Me with the fat of thy sacrifices; but thou hast burdened Me with thy sins, thou hast wearied Me with thine iniquities. I, even I, am He that blotteth out thy transgressions for Mine own sake; and thy sins I will not remember.

    Proverbs 16:6 By lovingkindness and truth iniquity is atoned for…

    You delivered a clever pitch, but you’re not as bible savvy as you lead others to be. You cite bible verses out of context to support your beliefs. You shouldn’t criticize other religions without knowing the facts.

  8. in search of truth said

    ive been reading posts on the site for some time, trying to gain a thorough understanding of what is presented hear and your viewpoint. For now ill refrain from saying much because ive not yet come to the point where i feel i can comment. All i do have to say however is that, its seems to me that your foundational basis of labelling certain preachers as heretics is the rejection of the trinity, but rather holding on to the viewpoint of oneness. Now as far as these terms are concerned i know not much, so ive been reading, and i think im starting to see the differences between the two views. Healtheland i would appreciate it if you could please reply to joes comment (number 6), it will help me further in my understanding of the topic. Once i’ve fully come to a conclusion, ill share my understanding and ask further questions.

    Thank you.

  9. in search of truth:

    I am sorry, but the fact that you are even taking seriously someone who says “the word Trinity is not in the Bible” as if it proves anything really shows that you are approaching this issue wrong. Listen, the word “rapture” isn’t written in the Bible, yet every single one of these oneness pentecostal liars believes in it. Their own arguments are not consistent, which is evidence that their doctrines are false.

    Trinity has been the doctrine of the followers of Jesus Christ ever since they saw the Holy Spirit fall on Jesus Christ and heard the Father speak of Him FROM HEAVEN until now. You know how long that is? ALMOST TWO THOUSAND YEARS. So now you are telling me that you are going to believe some cult group that sprang up in 1915 over almost 2000 years of Christian history?
    Use your head. What made those few people so special that they were able to interpret the Bible correctly when everyone else had it wrong? Why would God give to them alone some special revelation from scripture that is hidden from everyone else? And why would this revelation SURPASS that which is written in the Bible?

    The root cause of this was that oneness pentecostalism came out of this Azusa Street movement. The people in that movement because of their ability to speak in tongues and prophecy became puffed up with pride in themselves. They thought that they were more spiritual and knowledgable than the other Christians. (I know this for myself by having grown up charismatic, and we used to laugh at and mock what we called the lack of faith, power, and spirituality of other Christians all the time.) So these prideful people thought that Christianity as it had been practiced all this time was wrong – and evidence of it being wrong was that the only prophecies, tongues, and healings that were being done were in THEIR MOVEMENT – and so they felt that they had to interpret the Bible a new way, looking for hidden or secret knowledge (neo – gnosticism or Montanism) that would restore real Christianity. It was in the process of trying to rediscover, reinvent, restore, etc. Christianity that they latched upon Acts 2:38.

    The truth is that these people in all of their pride were foolish. They had very little knowledge of doctrine, theology, hermeneutics, or church history. If they did, it would have been very easily to interpret Acts 2:38 in context of a sermon made by Peter and recorded by Luke to explain how to be saved. Peter and Luke DID NOT intend those words to be a baptismal formula OR a description of the Godhead. It was only in response to the people in the crowd asking how to be forgiven of the sin of rejecting Jesus Christ, and Peter’s response to that crowd in that place and time was to believe upon and be baptized in the Name of the same Jesus Christ that they rejected.

    As it is, they are 1. setting the words of Peter in Acts 2:38 against that of Jesus Christ in Matthew when He told everyone to baptize in the Name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit and 2. GIVING PETER MORE AUTHORITY THAN JESUS CHRIST! Let me restate that. ONENESS PENTECOSTALS ARE GIVING PETER MORE AUTHORITY THAN JESUS CHRIST! In that, they are no different from Catholics who give the words of the pope and of tradition more authority than the words of Jesus Christ.

    That is what happens when a movement gets puffed up with pride and fascinated with things that should have been no big deal. That is it. I said it. Tongues and prophecy are no big deal. Why? Because tongues and prophecy are recorded in the Bible as are all the other miracles. If you believe in the Bible, tongues and miracles and healings and prophecy should not impress you. These people were wowed by the impressive looking words that came out of that movement becasue deep down inside they really did not believe the Bible until it was proven to them. I Corinthians itself says that tongues were for the benefit of the unsaved so that they might believe, not for believers to show how spiritual they are. What I Corinthians goes on to say ARE a big deal are the works of the fruit of the Holy Spirit on a person.

    What is a big deal is when a hateful, mean, prideful, selfish person – or even a criminal – becomes patient, kind, loving, giving, responsible, reliable, not self – seeking. THAT sort of transformation in not only a single individual but a whole group, a whole body of individuals, is what ought to make an impression on the truly saved and faithful who actually know what is in the Bible and believe it. But when you look at the scandals with the leaders of the Pentecostal movement then AND now, how many of them exhibit those characteristics? Certainly not the prideful ones that thought that the ability to speak in tongues gave them the right to reinvent Christianity.

    Another evidence of the work of the Holy Spirit is the ability to resolve this paradox: being unable to abide unrighteousness while at the same time being merciful … loving the sinner while hating the sin. Impossible with man, but a requirement of God. Meanwhile, the Pentecostal movement in less than 20 years has gone from legalistic to lascivious, from telling women that if they wore dresses more than two inches above the ankle they would be cast into the lake of fire to using sex to get people in the church and sell records.

    So you have two choices. You can either follow in the footsteps of the movement that was started by the people who witnessed the baptism of Jesus Christ and was renewed when Martin Luther nailed the 95 Theses on the door. Or you can follow in the footsteps of a bunch of prideful Biblically ignorant faithless people that popped up out of a movement that was founded by a member of the KKK and freemasonry (that is right, Charles Parham, who trained William Seymour, was those in addition to having been very credibly charged with sodomizing two teenaged boys) and had false doctrines from the beginning. That is right, Parham’s doctrines that tongues was evidence of baptism of the Holy Spirit was specifically contradicted in I Corinthians.

    The Pentecostal movement was founded by a pervasive hateful grotesque SINNER and his PLAINLY ABIBLICAL DOCTRINES. Anything good that came out of the Pentecostal movement was A) by the grace of God and B) served to build LEGITIMATE Christianity that preceded it, and the same is true of Roman Catholicism. So you go defend the doctrines of Parham and Seymour before you come and tell me that the new doctrines created by those that FOLLOWED Parham and Seymour can possibly have any truth in them. Thank you.

  10. Charles D. said

    Not placing a label and no name is attached: I feel in my spirit that someone(s) have experienced very worngful treatment, possibly (as considered by this person(s) to even have been sinful treatment by someone representing themself, and by default, the majority of the congregation.

    Since that time this person(s), though seeking the “truth,” has operated with wreckless abandon to set the matter straight, then, warn others as a secondary matter.

    I feel perfectly comfortable speaking in any forum, at any time, and to anybody without regards to standing, philosophy, or religion. My strength is in the risen Savior and He expects nothing less.

    In Christ,

    Charles

  11. Joe said

    In Rebuttle to post 9:

    I would regret to inform you sir of how misconceived you have found the “oneness pentecostal” “”liars”” to be. We teach the word RAPTURE just as many denominations do, However we BIBLICALLY do NOT TEACH the word – it is used as a “paraphrase” to those of whom it is unexplained, The words used in 1st Thes. are CAUGHT UP. That is what we teach.

    About your comment on the river banks of Jordan after Christs baptism. No one had ever reported seeing or hearing such events except John himself, It was an elaborate PERSONAL sign from God to him to confirm and show that Christ was in fact the coming messiah. Simple proof that he must decrease and Christ must increase.

    In response to your attack on the pentecostal movement. In all actuality the book of acts is recorded as the record of the EARLY CHURCH. – I will not address such remarks on how prideful or “holier then thou” any pentecostal can be, as baptists, mormans, catholics, etc all have the same crowd of people somewhere within their denomination. However I will address your 2 points made about them which were numbered.

    You stated “As it is, they are 1. setting the words of Peter in Acts 2:38 against that of Jesus Christ in Matthew when He told everyone to baptize in the Name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit”
    Correct. – – What is that name? The word Father is a TITLE, the word SON is a TITLE, the word Holy Ghost is a TITLE to the emanation of the spirit of God. But their is a NAME to those titles. What is that name? You cannot clear a world with an overdue bill of sin by signing a check “FATHER” nor “SON” nor “HOLY GHOST”, any more then i can cash a check at my bank with the word “Man” or “Brother” or “Child of God” – It doesn’t work, There is a name that must endorse the action. If we need to further elaborate – I will be glad to do so.

    For number 2. “GIVING PETER MORE AUTHORITY THAN JESUS CHRIST! Let me restate that. ONENESS PENTECOSTALS ARE GIVING PETER MORE AUTHORITY THAN JESUS CHRIST! In that, they are no different from Catholics who give the words of the pope and of tradition more authority than the words of Jesus Christ”.
    A poor assumption, For 2 reasons, 1 is Jesus said himself GREATER WORKS SHALL YOU DO THEN THESE John 14:12. and 2 Christ himself was in NO WAY here to teach us about the Godhead, or doctrines for he was the new covenant. It was his job to set the example and show the soon to be church as we would know it to be for 2000 years, how to handle and appropriate themselves towards the challenges of the basics of “The world against God” or visa versa. The fact remains that the church was not corrupt as it is today. In the new testament there is not ONE RECORD of a baptism taking place in the titles “father son & holy ghost” Their reply in Acts 2:38 was in fact… FACT… That is what they had to do, in JESUS name(also see ACTS 10:48 & ACTS 19:5), People and books like (Otto Heik, Schaff Herzog Encyclopedia, Encyclopedia of relegion & ethics, Encyclopedia Brittanica, William bousset, G.R. Beasley, Dean Stanley, and even the catholic church ALL AGREE and i can provide the sources that baptism was performed in JESUS NAME, and that the “TITLES FORMULA” was only LATER inserted). You seem educated however are all these sources wrong? – If so, then so must be the apostles, then i guess so was Jesus considering they had DIRECT contact with the both Alive & Dead & Risen savior.

    Now the rest of your response seems to go to a furtherance of an attack or destructive opposition of the pentecostal movement.
    The questions that you ask there, about hypocrites, liars, backsliders, false teachers, can be applied to ALL DENOMINATIONS, so watch where your point. We have them just as your baptists, catholics, mormans, Jehovah’s witnesses etc etc
    ALL FELL SHORT OF THE GLORY OF GOD Brother.

    I nor you nor ANYONE should base their religious beliefs, or relationship with Christ based on the actions of others whether Righteous or Sinful. That would be putting Man before God. Our purpose is to locate the truth, root ourselves in a church be baptized the correct way, receive the holy ghost promise, live holy, and prepare for departure.

    Your elaborations on the Pentecostal movement as far as the holiness standard. I will be the FIRST to say that alot of pentecostal churches take it a bit to far, however at the same time i will endorse their actions and boldness, for the bible teaches “Come out from among them, and be ye seperate from the world” 2 Corinthians 6:17.

    I always will ask trinitarians, the word “Trinity” is not in the bible, If it is truth then why not?
    The word “TRIUNE” is not in the bible, if it is truth then why not?
    The word “ETERNAL SON” is not in the bible, If it is truth then why not?
    Everywhere you look the word to replace where such a word might be is ONE, ONE, ONE. –
    How does your “OUT OF BIBLE” vocabulary support what the bible teaches???

    The TRINITY is shattered when in fact you say that they are three persons. – However as I explained before they are not persons for God is a spirit. John 4:24.
    Also shattered is the TRINITY again, when Christ prayed in the garden, John 17. How can one person of the trinity who is EQUAL in ALL ASPECTS to the other pray to another? Makes no sense Prayer cannot be accomplished without placing yourself in subjection to a higher power.
    Christ said himself his father was GREATER then HIM, John 10:29, John 14:28.

    Acts 20:28 says “take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, WHICH HE HATH PURCHASED WITH HIS OWN BLOOD”
    HIS OWN BLOOD, GODS BLOOD HAS TO RUN THROUGH GODS VEINS, THEREFORE GOD WAS IN CHRIST.

    The Bible teaches ONE SPIRIT – EPHESIANS 4.4
    also ONE LORD – – 1st Corinthians 8:6
    “NOW THE LORD IS THAT SPIRIT” – 2nd Corinthians 3:17

    Christ is a father in – HEB 2:13, JOHN 1:12-13, ISIAH 9:6, REVELATION 21:7, JAMES 1:17, JOHN 9:5, JOHN 4:21-24.

    Christ is the son as well – He prayed, cried, had blood, and he died.

    Other then 2 or so objections of which are BARELY bible & doctrinally based, the rest of your assumptive study seems to be a tyrannical attack of both verbal and personal statutes of someone who has done poor research on the pentecostal movement other then a slim line of historical facts.
    My prayers are with ALL who read this post. That the truth find you.

    If you have any questions you may e-mail me personally
    JCLEMENT05@HOTMAIL.COM

    God bless in JESUS NAME

    JOE

  12. Charles D. said

    So Joe, what faith do you subscribe? Are you “Oneness?” I ask you don’t state (at least that I have seen) where you are in terms of denomination or otherewise. Unfortunately, the Federalist Papers-sized comments that you make does not lend to thorough reads. Anyway, I am fairly sure that you’ve said precious little that have bot been stated here in prior posts.

    Usually, when a massive comment comes in that differ from prevailing thought, normally it comes from the Oneness, LDS, RCC, or a foul spirit possessed person seeking whom to devour, or at least to give it the old high school try.

    So Joe, on which side do you fall? Where do you hang your spiritual hat?

    Charles

  13. Charles D. said

    I’m putting my money on Joe is actually Crimmy from the Oneness faith. That or definitely Canadian, and or Ohio Valley resident.

    { } denote buzz words that are common to Canadian Oneness, to Crimmy, Red Wolf, but not Manny.

    “I {would} regret to inform you sir of how {misconceived} you have found the “oneness pentecostal” “”liars”” to be. We teach”

    Why would he regret doing something that he is desparately trying and think he is actually doing? Get my point?

    Charles

  14. Joe said

    I can see how off track this study has gone, based on the fact that some are not searching Christ, merely advocating & examining a text and or post written by another soul on this forum or whatever it may be.

    I believe without posting knowledge I have easily professed the Oneness Pentecostal faith, of which I DO NOT reside in Canada, nor Ohio. However to put it plainly i do confess the Oneness Pentecostal Faith.
    I understand your statement about the “REGRET” issue, however a term or paraphrasing comment or intro is just that, a simple way to a simple answer of which was combated harshly if you understand my point.

    Joe

  15. Charles D. said

    Hey Joe:

    While I do not totally understand your point, I do however, see your comment in a new light; as a confirmed Oneness follower.

    Don’t know if you participated in what (I believe) is the longest post to date. If you didn’t maybe you should look at some of the post, if you did, you will understand that no one here sees any different between a core and central belief of the four faiths mentioned in this thread. I do not believe any of the born again Christians here have, or are likely to change their view. That being said, this is not intended to discourage you from contributing to, or your commenting on, items that move you to comment or respond to something said here.

    Pleasant Saturday to you

    Charles

  16. John Kaniecki said

    Job,

    Hi hope you are well.

    SPAM ALERT ABOVE!!!

    Love,

    John

  17. Job said

    John K:

    That is 2 in 2 days. Thanks!

  18. Matthew 7:15″Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves.
    The sleazy watchtower $ociety only cares about it’s image,devotion of it’s followers,and plundering the time money and assets of followers.

    Just like a cult in every way…..

    More have died from their Watchtower spiritual and medical quackery than Jim Jones and David Koresh cults combined!

    Jehovah’s Witnesses beliefs:

    A) They are at your door to recruit you for enslavement to their watchtower corporation,they will say that “we are just here to share a message from the Bible” this is deception right off.

    B) Their ‘message’ is a false Gospel that Jesus had his second coming in 1914.The problem with this is it’s not just a cute fairy tale,Jesus warned of the false prophets who would claim “..look he is here in the wilderness,or see here he is at the temple…”

    C) Their anti-blood transfusion ban has killed hundreds if not thousands

    D) once they recruit you they will “love bomb” you in cult fashion to also recruit your family & friends or cut them off. There are many more dangers,Jehovah’s Witnesses got a bad rap for good and valid reasons.

    99% of the world has rejected the teachings of the Watchtower Jehovah’s Witnesses, the darker truth is they are a destructive and oppressive organization.
    Mind control is a terrible thing.

    Danny Haszard Jehovah’s Witness X 33 years http://www.freeminds.org

    http://jehovahwitness.vox.com/

  19. Hi Danny,

    I noticed the site you linked to in both your user name and at the end of your comment (freeminds.org) has an article titled “Tom Cabeen: Catholicism for ex-JWs?” And Mr. Cabeen is apparently scheduled to be a guest on the Roman Catholic network EWTN. I’ve also found other evidence that mentions Cabeen who is an Ex-JW now claims to be a follower of Roman Catholicism.

    Do you know that Roman Catholicism is as dangerous if not more dangerous than the Watchtower society? As dangerous in terms of abhorrent doctrine and actually more dangerous in the fact Roman Catholicism is so much larger it carries greater global influence.

    It would not be good for Ex-JWs to end up in something as bad or worse than what they removed themselves from. Roman Catholicism is not Biblical Christianity, but another gospel.

    And I’m sure you know that Roman Catholicism has a longer trail of bodies than Jim Jones, David Koresh and the Watchtower society COMBINED.

    I would like to know your thoughts on these things.

  20. Adry said

    1- A cult is defined as a group that cuts itself off from the world. (Ex: FLDS polygamist Mormons)- they have no contact with the outside world. Not true of Jehovah’s Witnesses.
    2- A cult has ONE spiritual leader (ex: Warren Jeffs) that claims he gets info directly from God. The Jehovah’s Witnesses do not claim to have any ONE head.
    3- A cult works inwardly, toward one goal, usually for the group. JW’s are not an insular group. They work for the good of human kind.
    I would not consider them a cult in the real definition of the term. If people want to call them that, of course they have the right. But is it a real, true term, applicable to JWs? No.
    Anything that peiople dont understand they’ve chosen to label, usually in a harsh sense.
    Most angry disgruntled people who bash Jws are usually ex-members….why so harsh? If you’re out, enjoy your life out.
    Just my opinion/viewpoint…and what I’ve seen.
    I enjoy playing devil’s advocate ;)

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