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Regarding Women Preachers: I Am Now Convinced That It Is Wrong

Posted by Job on March 20, 2007

Not so long ago, I was sore vexed at the criticism of people who would not accept women preachers, because my own experience was the charismatic Pentecostal tradition where I heard many great sermons delivered and saw many great works performed by women preachers and teachers. So, I wrote this article to defend women preachers. Soon after, I signed up to receive what I thought would be daily devotionals from the Marilyn Hickey ministry. Hers was what I THOUGHT would be the most easily defensible of female ministers: a married couple that had only daughters where the husband died. WHO ELSE was supposed to take over their ministry and church? But as it turned out, the Hickey’s “ministry” WAS TOTALLY DEVOTED TO WOMEN! Of course, they do not come out and say as such, but getting their emails it was obvious: all of their events were women’s conferences, women’s prayer breakfasts, women’s summits, women’s seminars, etc. I already had some questions about their ministry in my mind when I saw Sarah Hickey “preaching” on every liberal’s favorite Bible event to portray out of context, when the Jewish leaders took the woman caught in the act of adultery before Yeshua HaMashiach and asked Him if they should stone her. Of course, Bible bashers use that story to deny the very existence of sin and in doing so completely leave out how Yeshua HaMashiach said “Go and sin no more.” You would expect a charismatic Word of Faith Biblical literalist like Sarah Hickey to put the story in the CORRECT context. BUT NO! Sarah Hickey’s sermon COMPLETELY ABSOLVED THE ADULTERESS FROM ANY BLAME! No different from the theological liberals who deny that scripture should have authority over people’s lives and use this story as proof that Yeshua HaMashiach would MOST CERTAINLY would have disproved of the MORALIZING INTOLERANCE in the Old Testament and in the letters to the church in the New Testament, Sarah Hickey claimed that “this woman was trapped in an abusive exploitative relationship that was no good for her emotionally, that was not meeting her needs, and was harming her, and Jesus delivered her from it.” WHAT?!?! This woman was an ADULTERESS! No one FORCED her into this relationship! If ANYONE was harmed, it was the MAN that she was committing adultery with. Oh yes, AND HER HUSBAND! Now Hickey did mention the “sin no more” statement, but only in the context that SHE WAS BEING VICTIMIZED BY SIN! There was no mention of her own responsibility, she was totally excused.

Now I saw this sermon BEFORE I signed up to receive emails from their “ministry.” I told myself that maybe I took it out of context; that maybe I hardened my heart to her message because of my own feelings of misogyny and male chauvinism. But after I started receiving their ministry and AFTER DOZENS OF EMAILS OVER SEVERAL SEVERAL MONTHS SEEING NO MENTION MADE OF MEN AT ALL, I began to decide that perhaps it wasn’t my being a bigot here after all. So, I began to do some investigating of the other prominent female televangelists, and discovered THAT THERE IS AN ENTIRE SUBCULTURE OF THIS STUFF! Single women preachers and their daughters running ministries entirely geared at women. Now I am not a fan of Promise Keepers, but THAT ministry is about getting men to become more involved in their families and churches. But this stuff is totally different. It is a whole “church” subculture of women, almost exclusively divorced and never – married single mothers, EXCUSING THEIR OWN SINS BY BLAMING THEM ON MEN! Even better (or worse actually) men are in on the act too. It started with anti – Trinitarian apostate heretic TD Jakes’ “Woman Thou Art Loosed” thing, where all manner of single mothers (many divorced but TONS of them NEVER MARRIED) and lesbian and bisexual “church women” all came together to blame every sin and bad choice that they have ever made in their lives on men, almost always their fathers, husbands (or baby – daddys), or pastors. Then cross – dressing Tyler Perry started his Madea “Christian” plays and movies, which did the same. Then the other prominent preachers started having their wives run these VERY LUCRATIVE women’s “blame your man, my man, or any man conferences/prayer breakfasts/seminars/retreats.”

Of course, the whole thing was very disconcerting to me, so I wrote another article stating that despite the many great works of LEGITIMATE women preachers, what is going on with so many of the female preachers in the charismatic (which I still consider myself to be) Christian community, that lacking EXCEPTIONAL CIRCUMSTANCES, churches should simply adhere to what the Bible actually says. Then today I see this article promoting this FEMALE “PREACHER” THAT MAKES NO BONES ABOUT HER “MINISTRY” BEING DEDICATED SOLELY TO WOMEN and now I am just about ready to cast aside the “EXCEPTIONAL CIRCUMSTANCES” thing. Yes, I know that Deborah judged Israel. Yes, I know about Anna the prophetess mentioned in the gospels. Yes, I know about Lydia in Acts who founded the church in Thyatira (who, not the least bit ironically, had said about it Revelation “Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols. And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not. Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds. And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.) I know this because I stated these and more in my own article defending women preachers! But with the madness of this little (actually I shouldn’t say little because it is HUGE) “women getting together and blaming men for their sins” subculture going on, I am now certain that, as always, the Bible’s way is the best way. technorati tag:

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165 Responses to “Regarding Women Preachers: I Am Now Convinced That It Is Wrong”

  1. Amen brother. Sometimes we learn by experience that the rule book (The Bible) was right all along. Men are to have the roles of Bishops, Elders and Deacons. Plenty of times God uses women outside of those roles and women had their part in writing the Bible we read today, but some roles were made for a man and not a woman. Just like a man is not suppose to bear children. But I’m sure the Liberal nuts will figure out a way for men to carry a baby one day or they’ll break their necks trying.

  2. Independentconservative:

    This was very hard for me to accept, because I personally know of women who have the gifts of preaching, teaching, prophecy, administration, etc. Meanwhile, men who obviously lack those gifts are sitting up in the pulpit calling themselves preachers when they obviously have not been called and are making a major mess of things. We just have to obey God’s Word no matter what, and the women who have those gifts need to find a way to use them while staying obedient to God’s Word. Hey, speaking of which, the Internet is great! Hey ladies with the gift of preaching, teaching, and prophecy … fire those websites up!

    • Daniel said

      WHAT??? 1st Timothy 2:11 – 15 wome are commanded not to preach OR have authority over men in the church. If you are one of those who are proud enough to reject the word of God and thinks you can get away with it….you will findout the hard way that you cannot and will not.

      • unitedreformedgirl said

        If you have the New International Version (NIV)
        1 Timothy 2:11-15 says and i quote, “A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent. For Adam was formed first, then Eve. And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner. But women will be saved through childbearing–if they continue in faith, love and holiness and propriety.”
        Also it says in 1 Corinthians 14:34-35 it says and i quote again women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak but must be in submission as the Law says. If they want to inquire about something they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church.”
        I’m not trying to sound like im preaching here but i was just showing you some more information.

        • Hi Unitedreformedgirl,

          I cannot argue with the scripture you shared. It’s the Bible, and that means it’s God’s Word, so I just have to take it whether I understand it or the reasons for what it is saying or not. But, sometimes I think we really need to seek God for what the Bible means.

          I know there are both women and men who have seeming done a great job and a horrible job of ministry. So, if one is going to cite the sins of a woman preacher as a support for saying women should not be preaching, then one has to cite Todd Bentley’s affair, Jimmy Swaggart’s affair, Jim Bakker’s fall, Ted Haggard’s fall, Paul Cain’s fall, and I knew two pastors personally who fell into affairs and cheated with other women, dumped their wives and married the other woman and at least one of them got back into the pulpit to preach again. How satanic and pathetic is that? And pastors in the area were stupid and irresponsible enough to bring him in to lead revival services!

          I don’t care what kind of pomp and circumstance there is, what holy looking rituals are carried out, it is all nothing but a bunch of lies and stupid superstition and is not ministry at all if there is no total consecration to God. We don’t need the fear of man in church, we need the fear of God. We don’t need the fear of fakes, we nee the fear of God. The fear of God is the beginning of wisdom.

          If we’re pandering to the rich like a bunch of cowards, the rich are our Lord and Jesus isn’t. The thing that makes us quake in our boots is our god. End of story. We can paint ourselves Christian if we will, but if we fear man, man is our god. If we lust for sex, sex is our god. If there is anything we would not give up for God, then that thing is our lord and god–not Jesus, and although we may have learned to become liars, we most certainly have not learned to become Christians.

          Now, there are arrogant jerks who go around thinking everyone has to agree with them or they are heretics and false teachers. Yet they have not proven their case. They merely think if you disagree with them, you’re unfaithful to God and unfaithful to His Word. Do not fear them ever. Do not let them become your lord. The Bible says, “Thy Word is a lamp unto my feet and a light unto my path.” The Holy Spirit is your teacher. The Bible says, “My sheep hear my voice.” We have abundant promises if we seek God truly with all our heart that He will be there and will hear us. II Chron 7:14 promises us, “If my people who are called by my name will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, forgive their sins and heal their land.” Here we have four things to do and God will answer by doing three things. So, although interactions and fellowship and Bible study with other Christians is a good thing to help us see scripture from different perspectives, when it comes to our final authority, it is not the person who pounds the pulpit and demands you understand things as he or she understands them, but God’s Word and the Holy Spirit should be the one we trust.

          But, I never really spoke much about women preachers…

          • JohnMcPherson said

            two wrongs dont make a right,God isnt interested in our sacrifiice but our obedience.The bible declares that women are not to preach,you can huff and puff but why dont you trust the scriptures.

  3. Those ladies can always pull a wayward man aside outside of service and have a talk with him. Just like anyone else. I don’t go up correcting my pastor during service, nobody does. If we have a word of disagreement we all have that outside of service.

    I was not called to pastor a church. Most of us were not. Many men who take the role were not truly called to that role, given their terrible work in that role.

    We just know some men were made for the role and have to leave it at that.

    Women have to accept that somebody is supposed to be the homemaker. And plenty of women work a job while doing that. Somebody is supposed to help keep men girded up. Given the many things a woman is responsible for, obviously she’s not supposed to be running a church.

  4. Ken said

    so your whole argument about the passage in Timothy (but I suffer not a woman to teach but to remain silent) isn’t really about teaching at all but about gossip…have you rejected that argument or are you saying that all along you understand that all of the ruling elders were specifically meant to be male and that now what you are rejecting is the exceptions to that rule?

    what about women pastors who don’t only minister to women?

    • Daniel said

      Women are supposed to minister to women and children….so I have no propblem with women doing what they are instructed to do. “Teach the children and young women”.

  5. Ken:

    Well, the argument about the passage in Timothy was something that I heard a TV preacher say in HIS sermon defending women preachers and appropriated. It has been a progression. First, I was totally rejecting what the Bible plainly said. Then I was kinda sorta trying to accept what the Bible said, but coming up with exceptions. Now, I have decided that no one has ever gone wrong adhering to the Bible, but plenty have been lost by deviating from it.

    “what about women pastors who don’t only minister to women?” Well, ironically, women pastors ministering only to women (and children) would actually be a loophole, a way to keep Timothy! And were it not for this HUGE AND GROWING “CHRISTIAN” SUBCULTURE of women “preachers” justifying the sins of women (including but not limited to blaming it on men), then I would probably be writing an article this very minute justifying it as an excellent way for women who have these gifts to use them. It took me awhile to get over my own hard – heartedness so that I would conform to scripture, but once I did, I was forced to admit that I had been seeing this trend developing where women were segregating themselves so that they could create and follow doctrines and teachers that allowed them to blame all of their problems on someone else (easy to do if none of the “someone elses” are around) all along, and was just doing my best to ignore or excuse it in order to accommodate my desire to rebel against the Bible.

  6. [...] See my previous posts here and here as well as earlier essays here (written back when I was still a Word of Faith/prosperity [...]

  7. All,

    I am a preacher who happens to be a woman. I am not a “woman preacher.” I do not think you need to qualify ministry by your gender. While I could get into a conversation that deals with the context in which 1 Corinthians 14 is written, I really do not believe that has any purpose in this particular posting.

    From what I have read from the postings here, I think that you have mistaken the letter of the law for the Spirit of the law. In your study of God’s Word, you must recall the “why” in order to understand God’s reason for the “what.” This is a divisive issue because far too many people have harped on the “letter” without understanding the “Spirit.” When you take the Word of God in its entirety, believing that women are not supposed to teach or hold positions of leadership becomes ridiculous. God hand picked women for positions of leadership throughout the bible and went on to say that “sons and daughters shall prophesy,” with proheSy( vs. prophecy) meaning “to give instructions on religious matters; preach.”

    There is far too much evidence of God empowering women to lead for anyone to conclude that Paul’s letter regarding the improprieties of a pagan church applies to holy women who God has gifted to teach His Word.

    HealtheLand, to your point, if you believe that women should not preach because preachers are holding “very lucrative blame-yourman, etc., etc. retreats,” you must also think that men should not preach either because they are holding very lucrative “blame your childhood, blame the government, blame the devil” retreats. Obviously, this is ridiculous. When a person gets a platform, whether man or woman, the condition of their heart determines their actions. This is not indicative of an entire gender or race. It is a condition of the person’s spirit.

    I have absolutely no problem with calling people out for misrepresenting God. At the same time, how do you reconcile the thousands of male preachers who are getting rich off the backs of women? If women left church “to the fellas,” it would be empty! Finally, if God didn’t want women messing with the church, why would he send the greatest gift through a woman? A woman who, mind you, was required to not have been “tainted” by a man’s seed?

    • unitedreformedgirl said

      “Nona” (I’m not calling you “minister Nona” because it isn’t right)
      If you say that women can preach or have authority in the church because they have the certain God-given gift to do so, you are going against God’s Word. It CLEARLY states in the Bible, which is God-breathed and true, that in 1 Corinthians 14:34-35 that women cannot speak in the church. If you think they can then you better start reading the Bible especially 1 Corinthians 14:34-35.
      Also when you say men are making women not preach because they get rich off the backs of women, it’s not true. Men don’t preach just because they want money, it’s because God has given this amazing opportunity to speak in the Church, to do it for God’s glory, not for their own and not just to get rich. If there are men that are ministers and they just want to get rich off of it, that must mean they aren’t using their gift for a God-given reason. They aren’t using their gifts to glorify God.
      I am not trying to sound rude and try to pick a fight but I am just trying to tell you the right thing. Please if you are still using your God-given gifts for preaching, don’t do that anymore. Use your gifts for something else; something not in the church. Use it to teach Bible or religion in school or for Sunday School or Vacation Bible school but not in the church for a Sunday worship service. Please take my advice. I am 15 and I don’t think i should be the one telling you this, listen to what the other people are saying too.

      • Tony said

        Unitedreformedgirl, thank you for your post. There is a scripture I Timothy 2:12-14. There is a guy who read about a woman not to have authority over a man, not to teach, he never got back to me about it. There is a church I have gone to where a woman has been preaching. I may bring the issue up. I do not expect them to adhere to the scriptures in 1st Timophy or 1st Corinthians.

    • JohnMcPherson said

      Jesus wasnt tainted by the seed of a woman either ,Its obvious that you are under a spirit of sexism and I will leave it at that but if you want to live in rebellion to the ways of God than we will continue to have effeminate men and demonic spirits manifesting because you wont humble yourself to the ways of God.There is a way which seems right unto a man but the end therof leads to destruction. As far as thinking that men are inferior to women is ridiculous and dont say thats not what you are saying because I have discernment of sprits,You need to repent of this sin and obey Gods word and seek His way,not yours.Men and women have been given different roles and the idea that anyone wants to go against His precious words shows pride,selfishness and a lack of trust in Gods word.repent for the kingdom is at hand!!!

  8. Minister Nona:

    Well, I have written quite a bit on this topic, with several posts on this topic on this weblog as well as at least a couple of essays on my old website that preceded this weblog. On one hand, I have seen women preachers do great things and have been greatly helped by their ministries and gifts in my life. On the other hand, there is the need to be obedient to scripture. I understand what you are saying about “the letter of the word versus the spirit of the word”, but there is the simple fact that it is a slippery slope that virtually anyone could use on any issue. As I stated prior, I have addressed this topic on this weblog several times, trying to reconcile the incontrovertible facts that A) scripture plainly says that women should not have authority over men in the church and says it in several places, and it is a principle established by the fact that the original 12 patriarchs were male and the apostles that replaced the patriarchs when Jesus Christ fulfilled Judaism were male and B) women obviously do have spiritual gifts – as Joel prophesied they would – and I cannot fathom God giving women those gifts without wanting them to be used. As a matter of fact, Jesus Christ expressly revealed in His ministry how the role of women in Christianity was going to be greater than it was under Judaism. So, I have been trying to figure out and recommend ways for women to use their gifts of preaching, teaching, evangelism, prophecy, etc. in a manner that is obedient to scripture, and have made several other entries in that fashion, which can be accessed by following this link: http://healtheland.wordpress.com/tag/women-preachers/ So, please, do not let this single entry represent my entire thoughts in this area. I will admit (especially after reviewing it myself in the course of writing this reply to you) that there is far more negative than positive or even analytical, and I would welcome any contributions that you, a person that God by His grace saw fit to make a female and a preacher and moreover is striving to understand and remain obedient to scripture, could make to my efforts. But the fundamental truth is that no one said that being obedient to scripture was easy and was without sacrifices. A great part of the struggle that I have with the issue is that it honestly appears to me that women have had to bear the bigger sacrifice in this issue, and I question the fairness of it. I have tried to justify it with the “view ministry not as glamorous a position of prestige and power but humble service”, but that doesn’t work. The bottom line is that I have real misgivings about telling someone else to make a sacrifice that I don’t have to make myself. Trust me, if this was not something plainly given and reinforced over and over again in the Bible, I would be arguing the opposite side. As a matter of fact, I was arguing the opposite side just a year ago, see here http://healthelandsermonarchives.wordpress.com/2007/03/02/god-is-the-original-feminist/. And I was also tempted to not address the issue at all because I was so conflicted over it internally. I know that my sob story is not particularly convincing or helpful, because YOU are the one being affected by my stand, not me. I just want to let you know that A) I arrived at my position honestly, and not as a result of church tradition or any desire to discriminate against women and B) I honestly do think that especially in this modern world there are lots of ways that women can preach and teach. As one of my posts stated, I believe this one http://healtheland.wordpress.com/2007/04/02/women-preachers-competing-translations-of-i-corinthians-1434-35/ and some others that gave examples, there are plenty of ways that these gifts can be used outside of the context of being a church official. I gave this http://healtheland.wordpress.com/2007/04/28/women-preachers-working-in-the-asian-mission-field/ as a positive example, as well as this http://healtheland.wordpress.com/2007/04/05/women-with-spiritual-gifts-heres-an-example-elisabeth-elliot/, and also a devotional that included the identity of the first Christian female preacher here http://healtheland.wordpress.com/2007/04/23/great-christian-firsts/ If you have anything that you can add to my efforts in this regard, I would be more than happy to put it up. I am perfectly open to edifying debate with people who are at least trying to conform to scripture and consistent, sound doctrine, as I am.

  9. HealtheLand: I have learned that, where there appear to be contradictions in the Word, the contradictions are a result of my observing the letter of God’s law rather than the Spirit of it. Let’s take, for example, Pharaoh. Now, if you believe that God gave man free-will to make decisions as he pleases and also believe that God has given us the ability to “choose ye this day whom you will serve,” you would have a hard time with the Word saying that God hardened Pharaoh’s heart toward Moses. This would, in effect, say that God took Pharaoh’s free-will hostage and contradicted His own Word.

    But, by studying the Word and understanding the Spirit of this event, one would come to realize that God is still true to His nature. On the surface, this story seems very out of character for God, but until we take a closer look at it in context and line it up with the other 99% of the Word, we come to the conclusion that God did not change. I think that we can not ignore God’s choosing women to lead, teach, found and pastor churches in the bible. If we ignore it or try to explain it away, we are adding to and taking away from His Word. We have to accept it in its entirety or else we are, in effect, rejecting it. I do not make any attempts to explain away 1 Corinthians 14 or Timothy. I simply view them in light of the other dozens of examples of God’s ordaining women to lead. There are people today who still believe that we must follow the letter of Mosaic Law, even though the Word clearly says that Christ fulfilled it through the law of grace.

    I respect your opinion on this topic and feel that you have a right to it.

  10. Minister Nona:

    Funny, I was reading “Rod Of The Spirit” by Danny Lovett just a few minutes ago where he quoted II Corinthians 3:6, asserting that truth without spirit is dead and can kill, “for the letter of the law killeth but the spirit giveth life.” Now, I have been accused by some good Christians of wielding truth recklessly without compassion and humility, so maybe this applies to me. As a general rule, I am usually unwilling to settle for the “you have a right to your opinion, agree to disagree” position. Even if I were, it wouldn’t apply to you and I anyway because we are not arguing anyway. So the ball is in your court, as they say. Please, breathe life into the dry bones, the letter of the law, on this woman preacher issue and make them become flesh! If you feel that it is more appropriate to do it privily, please contact me at healtheland@lpemail.com. I should say, though, that although Lydia founded a church in Acts and Deborah judged Israel I have not seen evidence of women leading, teaching in, or pastoring churches or synagogues in scripture or even in the history of the early (pre – Constantine) church. If you have such, by all means please provide it, as even in the case of Lydia I never saw any evidence that she had a leadership role or delivered sermons in the church that she founded. Paul did extol women for their service to the church in his epistles, but they seem to have been in “helps” types of roles. But if I have missed something, please let me know. And as for the pharoah during the time of Moses issue, it would actually be very useful in the debate over Arminianist free will and Calvinistic (though the doctrine seems to have preceded Calvin, as Luther and Augustine apparently believed the same) election and predestination, but that is another issue for another time.

  11. HealtheLand: Well, let’s see. You said, “I should say, though, that ALTHOUGH Lydia founded a church in Acts and Deborah judged Israel I have not seen evidence of women leading, teaching in, or pastoring churches or synagogues in scripture or even in the history of the early (pre – Constantine) church.”

    The word “although” literally means “in spite of the fact that.” So, what you are saying is, “in spite of the fact that” women are recorded as leaders and church founders in the bible, we should disregard this as evidence. If there is even one example, it is an example. If there are two examples, they are examples. By there being examples, we must reconcile these examples with 1 Corinthians and 1 Timothy, lest we reduce ourselves to Pharisees by picking and choosing which scriptures we believe.

    Judging from your posts, you seem to have a pretty good handle on the historical context in which the bible was authored. I find it interesting that both of Paul’s epistles are either addressed to or addressing behavior in churches that were called out of pagan, polytheistic societies (Ephesus and Corinth). It is a very far stretch, then, to say that, despite the scriptures and examples to the contrary, Paul is saying that Christian women should not teach.

    Personally, I have no internal conflict about it. I understand the Spirit(why), as well as the letter (what) of Paul’s epistles.

    • Daniel said

      1st Timothy 2:11 – 15
      11Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. 12But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. 13For Adam was first formed, then Eve. 14And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression. 15Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.

      Does not get much clearer then that. If you reject the Apostles doctrine, then by definition, you are “apostate”.

      • Diane said

        Daniel

        there is a lot “in the confines of scripture” that you only at best on this side of heaven will partly understand. Unless you are accusing God Himself of “apostate” acts because His Righteous Works contradict the silencing of women….

        How is it that God Himself “chose”, for His Chosen People,…”annointed” and “raised” up Deborah, Huldah, and the “great host of women”(Psalm 68:11 not an obscure few)…

        Yes, please explain the language in the clear passage you use to silence women that God has annointed to “prophesy” “speak under the annointing of the Holy Spirit”, that…. “she shall be saved in childbearing”

        a)born again women don’t “give birth to Jesus”
        b)ungodly and godly women are saved, experience pain and die in childbearing

  12. Nona, why don’t you just cross 1 Timothy 2:11-13 out of your Bible and while you’re at it, you can go and doctor up Genesis 3:16 to your liking. The fact that women were never allowed in positions of leadership is consistent in both the old and new covenant.

    You attempt to twist an example of how straying from sound doctrine results in the church in Thyatira being judged for having a women leader which leads to men falling into temptation. You Nona are building your own church of Thyatira and will answer for forsaking and twisting scripture. You forsake what is sound to fill your own belly.

    You know virgin women were prophesying to Paul, but NEVER were they in a position of leadership in the church. And the apostles said themselves that they too were in the last days. The women were doing prophesying, but NOT as leaders in the church. They would speak with men like Paul in private. Rather than following in their example, you wish to hold a position of leadership like men and be a leader of men against God’s will. God never called for co-leaders of a church where a man and woman have leadership together, it is to be run by men, period, end of story and you have no sound doctrine to walk in when doing otherwise.

  13. I really find it interesting how some women who desire to assume leadership positions outside of scripture attempt to abuse Acts 2:17, as if Peter was saying they have license to run a church, which is so far from the truth. When one reads all of Acts chapters 1 and 2 you see clearly, that Peter was talking about the events of everyone from the upper room speaking in tongues and telling everybody in the streets about the works of God. They were both women and men doing this. It had nothing to do with women assuming a leadership role in any church.

    Even today plenty of women might tell somebody about the great works of God, this does not mean that now they should go try and assume leadership in a church, it’s still not the way God ordered things. Peter was speaking and said he lived in the last days, we do the same today, but that does not mean the order of anything changed at all.

    If women can change the rules for leadership, than homosexuals would have full license to change the rules for marriage.

    Secular movements have destroyed sound order in many a church assembly.

  14. IndependentConservative: I apologize, do I know you? You called me by my first name as if we are long time friends or have some sort of a relationship. You may refer to me as Minister Nona. If you choose not to, you dishonor God and not me.

    While we are on Genesis 3:16, tell me, are you a farmer? Do you as adamantly advocate that men not work in air conditioned, comfy offices, since, of course, God specifically cursed Adam to farm land that would not bring forth fruit. Also, since it was the man who was cursed to work, do you as adamantly denounce men who need their wives to work because they do not make enough money to support their family? Just curious.

  15. Nona, your weak attempts at obfuscation do not dismiss the fact that God has no desire for women to attempt to lead men. You bring disorder and are attempting to overrule the commands of God.

    Healtheland – I especially enjoy her pure arrogance in wanting me to address her with a title God never ordained for her to have. Even if she were a man, that arrogance of trying to play a “dishonor God” game by wanting me to address her with a title is total garbage.

    Notice the hypocrisy, she’s got no problem calling Paul just “Paul” without the title apostle, but she gets upset when someone uses her first name.

    Honestly, I’ve met Mormons here with better false game than Nona. I’ll waste no more time with this one.

  16. donna said

    I always find it sadly amusing how women who want to usurp mens appointed role, take and twist the Bible to suit there own sin. If we just accept Gods design for our lives we would be much happier contented women and the Men in our lives would be better equipped to step up to the plate.
    God bless

  17. Christianne said

    A lot of people are going to get caught ON THE WRONG ROAD for two reasons.
    1. They judge God through people’s actions not by what the bible says. The bible is its own authority.
    2. The bible has to be studied and revealed. Ask God what the scripture (in question) means, and then tells us what GOD says.

    P.S. The word virgin also means “young woman/girl”.

  18. Min. Wright said

    As I look back to the beginning of time (Genesis) when woman was beguiled by the serpent to eat fruit from the forbidden tree, I could not help but to take notice that God did not remove the woman from the Garden, rather the man. As I kept reading, I never heard another word from Adam as it relates to God, however it is written on two occasions that Adam lays with his wife Eve (4:1 & 4:25)so we can conclude that Adam was definitely still around…he just isn’t saying anything. On the other hand while Adam is silent, Eve never lost her praise for God.

    Is Adam angry with God…I don’t know…Is Adam angry with Eve…I don’t know…Is Adam angry with the serpent…I don’t know. All I know is Adam aint saying nothing to God or about God since the consequences for the fall were laid out. Now concerning the woman God did say that her consequence would be an great increase in pain during childbearing, women would desire a husband, and he will rule over them. Ummmm could this mean more than what meets the eye.

    I will come back to that later…Let’s go to II Corinthians 5:17…”Therefore, if any man be in Christ he is a new creature: old things are passed away;behold, all things are become new. vs. 18 says, And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and have given us the ministry of reconcilliation;…we’ll stop there.

    I asked God what is the new?…He said the new is the original…So what is the original. Go to Genesis 1:26 “And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness; and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth”. WOW you mean when we came into Christ God reconciled us back to his original plan for us..YES! However, many have not transitioned their faith to believe this truth because it feels better to rule over people than to rule over the earth. Since many still operate under the fallen state, women are opressed by the one verse in scripture that said man will rule over thee. So we bring forth anything that God is giving us through much pain, through much distress and until the Body of Christ gets this revelation that God always wanted to rule man and has been trying to take back his rulership since Jesus.

    You remember when Jesus was born, Herod was large and in charge and when the Word got out that the King of kings was born, Herod and ALL Jeruselem was very disturbed (Matthew 2:1-3) I submit to you that God has been trying to reestablish Himself as King of our lives since the beginning. Just read through the scriptures, you will find that the people wasn’t studdin’ God so he gave kings because preferred man over God…this is the consequences of the fallen state.

    Now JESUS came to take his seat as King in our lives (Luke 4:20-21) and now man is saying God wants us to be ruled by man but Paul in his writings was making giving us instructions on how to live with this unchanged mindset which is equal to slave/master relationships. Even Hebrew 13:17 has been taken out of context because man is bent on ruling over man. The King James Version actually says “Obey them that have the rule over you…NOT…Obey them that rule over you. Leave out “the” and it changes the whole context of what Paul was saying.

    If any man be in Christ…we are reconciled back to our original relationship with God. Jesus rules and man was suppose to take a back seat and let Jesus rule but since that did not happen there is a lot of confusion, and disorder in the body of Christ, many people who have been chosen to do ministry beyond the walls of their church house, men will not release them and so they are confused in the pews, thinking that although God has put ministry in them beyond the walls because their leader won’t loose them and let them go…they stay and stagnate to the point of mutation.

    Women of God if you have been called by God, honor your leadership, but Go with God at all cost.

  19. Rock said

    Christian church wil b restored only when it accept these scriptural truths 1)women are not allowed 2 teach or hav authority over men 2)women should cover their head in worship 3)women should dress modestly and not in a sexually attractive way 4 men 4)every church should hav 1 pastor only.Posts like bishops overseer shud b abolished.Feminization of church started in 4th century AD along with paganization.There was brief respite durn reformatn period.But soon durn 18 ,19th and 20th century age of great delusion töok place jst as predicted in the scriptures.And feminism came back with double force.But this trend shall be reversed in the 21st century following the establishment of the glorious worldwide church of jesus christ before his return!Which shall b te spotless bride recorded in the scripture.Jesus himself said in the scriptures’i shall build my church on this rock(pointing 2 himself) and the gates of hell shall not prevail over it!

  20. Diane said

    Nona, I appreciate your responses to this issue, and pray that you would continue in the work of our Lord Jesus Christ.

    May God Bless you.

  21. Diane: I would hope that you would encourage Pastor Nona to conduct her ministry in a manner that is keeping with a plain incontrovertible reading of scripture. We cannot cast aside portions of the Bible merely because we deem them to be unfair or difficult to keep! There are many excellent ways for a woman to use the spiritual gifts that the Holy Spirit gave her through grace and election without assuming a position of authority over a man in a local church assembly, especially in this age of technology where, say, a female preacher can write, record, and even videotape sermons and display them on the Internet! We shall all be judged by our obedience to scripture. That is something that every Christian must remember. The same Bible that calls murder, fornication, homosexuality, theft, etc. sins regulates the position and conduct of men and women in the church and the home. Everyone who knowingly violates this will be held accountable.

  22. Steve said

    I too, grew up in a culture of women pastors. Unfortunately, in every case I witnessed, no matter how good the teaching, it was always unbalanced. It is not a knock on women at all, I just don’t believe it’s a God given role for women to be pastors. Why some women take this so personally I don’t know. Being a pastor is not a glamorous job. Not if it is done right. The roles of women and men have already been confused so much in our culture that there is now no disctintion between the two. This has caused many problems. The culture has crept into the church and now there are no distintion in roles. Men and women have different strengths (and weaknesses) and I think the most healthy and best scenario is for a man (full of the spirit) to be a pastor.

    • Elsie said

      I grew up in a christian home, thank God for that. My mother stayed home taking care of the big family (7 girls and one boy) while my dad was out there making a living for the family. I thank God daily for my parents (they are now with the Lord) and I thank God that my mother stayed at home and watched over us and took care of things at home while my father was out there making a living for the family. My mother never tried to take the role of my father and my father never took the role of my mother. They where very comfortable being the parents and the people God made them to be. As a very young age I knew my father was the leader (this does not mean that either one was better than the other) at home and he was a good one at that. He made the final decisions at home. If they had any disagreements, we never knew about it. One thing I can remember clearly was that they where always in one accord, especially when it came to the children, discipline, etc. The reason why I am writing this it is because I see how roles between men and women have changed for the worst. We have many children growing up without a parent at home watching over them.

      I also notice in this society that if a woman says she is a “housewife” it means that she has no worth. I believe that being a mother and a wife is a wonderful ministry and should be our first ministry. Not an easy one but it is a beautiful one. As women we should be proud of that honorable God given role of being a wife and a mother. God fashioned us in such a beautiful way that we can do certain things that a man or I should say most men could not do as well. And man was created in a unique and special way that he can perform certain things in a way that a woman would have difficulty doing. Maybe that is why God gave men bigger muscles! lol Let’s be honest with ourselves, God crated men and women different.

      I just think that this disorder in roles has brought a lot of disorder at home and in turn we have families falling apart. No woman at home when the children get home from school. No woman at home when the husband gets home from work. By the time we get home from work we are so tired that we have no energy to speak or deal with our husband or children. Maybe this is one of the reasons Paul said what he said. I think he was seeing into the future.
      God bless you all.

      • Diane said

        Elsie

        I’m also a wife and mother at home raising a family, and can completely relate to you when you mention the scourn shown from society to women who choose to stay home and raise the children. But I have to disagree with your implications that “home” is the only sphere for women. Parenting belongs to both parents and it’s up to the individual families to decide how to best meet the needs of their children. In some families, the husband is very lovingly involved, communicates in a nurturing way and their children are vibrant even though the mother works outside of the home.

        Disorder in the home comes from sin and a desire not to “love” our spouses and our children as ourselves. To mutually honor one another is a marriage that honors Christ, not a male or female tyrannical/servant relationship. It is putting one’s (husband or wife) selfish desires before the spiritual, mental, emotional, and physical needs of the family. This problem is not the cause of women being treated more fairly in the work place, or women being able to get a job if her husband is having an affair and is failing to meet their financial obligations, or is, along with her children, subject to physical abuse.

        When I hear Christians (not you) blaming the “women’s rights movement” for the break up of homes, instead of holding “individuals” accountable for their own sin, it reminds me of how Jesus responded to the hypocrites condeming the woman only for adultery…. it is complete nonsense

        This is what people with that mindset are saying

        “women should live in fear and terror of their husbands threats to leave them without the finances to stay above poverty”

        “when husbands are having an affair, women should just put up with it, because getting a job would to feed and clothe her family would be ‘not her role’”

        “women shouldn’t call the police, because that might break up the family if the husband becomes violent”

        “if they weren’t paid fairly, weren’t able to get loans, they’d be FORCED to put up with abuse and marriages would stay together”

        No… better treatment of women hasn’t caused the breakup of homes, but unrepentant hearts do.

        I’m glad you have had that experience, but perhaps remembering that because of sin, other women are benefiting from living in a country where they can make a living if she chooses to.

        • Elsie said

          Diane,
          You are absolutely correct, the problem is sin. I was speaking about the roles of men and women. I personally believe that the calling for pastors is for men but I will not allow that to get in the middle. To all, let’s not allow the enemy bring division over the issue of women being preachers. I myself have heard some godly women preach and I tell you these women where annointed by God. Now, I have also seen MANY men and women that had no annointing at all. Many in these days call themselves pastors, apostoles, etc and they are not. They have alot of knowledge of earthly things but not on spiritual matters. God did not put them there, they put themselves there. I have seen some on television that they sound like they are pumping people on prosperity and humanistic matters. That’s really scarry! It makes me wonder where are the true people of God that will proclaim the gospel of Jesus Christ without adultering it. Many people are going to hell on a daily basis and we are worrying about the issue of “women preachers”? Let’s all proclaim Christ and him crucified to the lost world. Let’s allow Christ live in us so that the lost world will see Him in us. May God help us to live in unity and love.

          With much love,
          Elsie

  23. Diane said

    Healtheland, I went to do some cooking and then realized that I meant to thank both you and Nona for having a civil and respectful discourse. I do agree with Nona that God does raise up Godly men and women to lead, teach and preach. I know you disagree, I just wanted to thank you for doing so in a way that honors Christ. Many Christians on both sides have based their conclusions and convictions on scripture.

    God clearly calls homosexuality an abomination and destroyed Sodom, Gomorrah, and the surrounding cities because of it.

    Murder is repeatedly condemned by God, as well as fornication, and theft.

    I hope you’re not comparing women like Deborah, Abigail(obedient to God not her husband), Huldah, Susanna Wesley, & Catherine Booth to works of abominations? Men were warned by Jesus not to attribute to the devil the works of the Holy Spirit.

  24. Diane: So you are saying that the Holy Spirit did not inspire Paul to write that a woman should not be in a position of authority over a man in the church? Deborah and Huldah were under the old covenant, though I should point out that the Bible in no way precludes a woman from being a prophetess or preacher, since those, while five fold ministry gifts, are not offices of church authority as elder and bishop are, as the five daughters of Philip the evangelist were prophetesses. From reading the biography of Catherine Booth just now, she appeared to hold no church office but rather ran the Salvation Army. As for Susanna Wesley, her biography reads “…although she never preached a sermon or published a book or founded a church, is known as the Mother of Methodism.” Now those are examples of women doing the works of God while being obedient to the very scriptures that I referenced. Was that your intent, or did you cite them to oppose what I was speaking? If so, your warning that closed your comment should be directed to you, not me.

    This is particularly true of your mention of Abigail, who was married to a son of Belial and also living under the old covenant. The “obedient to God and not her husband” reference is cited grotesquely out of context in this conversation and can only lead to confusion, as you know perfectly well that the the epistles command a woman in the Body of Christ to be subject to her husband. So seriously, I must ask you, are you saying that it is permissible for a woman to reject the authority of the Bible over their lives merely because they are women? If so, then what prevents a man from doing the same? And yes, the Bible does make it clear that all disobedience to God is the same since it all results in eternal destruction in the lake of fire when one refuses to repent and turn aside of it! So yes, a woman who refuses to live under the instructions of the Bible is just as abominable as a homosexual or a murderer. Remember: Jesus Christ did warn that not all who did mighty works in His Name would receive the eternal reward. Instead, those who were perfectly obedient were counted as sheep, and those who were partially or even mostly obedient were counted as goats and cast into outer darkness where there was weeping and gnashing of teeth. I would hope and pray that you are using the ministry that God has given you – which you do have for all members of the Body of Christ are called to servitude of and in Him – to exhort your fellow bondservants to be sheep and not rebellious goats!

  25. Diane said

    Healtheland, Israel was apostate when God rose up Deborah. Deborah was chosen as Prophet and Judge and God used her to turn a nation back to Him. She spoke the will and word of God to men and women. God chose Deborah just as He chose Samuel, Samson, Jeremiah and Isaiah. Through your words, her actions are just as abominable as a homosexual, because she doesn’t line up with 1 Tim or 1 Cor.

    Susanna Wesley indeed preached in meetings in her home that grew to over 200 men, women and children.

    Catherine Booth preached as well as help run the Salvation Army.

    These women rebuked, exhorted, encouraged and comforted many men and women as they preached and taught the commands of Christ.

    Are you saying that these women are going to hear “depart from Me, you workers of iniquity, I never knew you” because they did what the women at the well did?

    I mentioned Abigail to show that God will use a wife to keep a household from suffering severe consequences due to sinful choices of her husband by going contrary to his wishes and not submitting to them. Do you consider her a rebellious goat?
    (I hope not)

    I also brought up the Words of Christ, since we’re to abide in them, not to offend you, but in hope that you would use caution in equating women that way with murderers and homosexuals.

    Paul teaching’s about slaves and masters has to be taken in light of the context of the culture he lived in – not a command for all slaves for all times. The same for 1Tim and 1Cor.

    In Christ.

  26. bebereans said

    I agree that women Pastors are in disobedience to God. Because women are not meant to be Shepherds, does not make women inferior. But so many people think that these days.

    As someone said, men can’t have babies. And if any of y’all ladies have ever had a child, you know what a blessing that is from God. Should men feel inferior because of that?? No. That is the way God made us. We have different roles.

    Why didn’t Jesus choose any women Apostles? Why didn’t Jesus send out women to go two by two along with the 12 in Mark, preaching repentance and faith? He was/is God. He wouldn’t have let “culture” dictate that, would He?

    Seems clear to me. God showed us His order starting in Genesis. Us women need to get rid of our pride and humble ourselves before the Lord, and be obedient in following God’s Word. We need to submit to the Word, not try to make it submit to us.

    1 Tim. 2
    11Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.

    12But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

    13For Adam was first formed, then Eve.

    14And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

    God bless.

  27. Victoria Frost said

    As a child I also listen to several women minister. But When i met my husband, he told me there was no such thing as a God called Women preacher. So I have been checking it out. I have found many scripture concerning this. I’ve read where they are to keep silent. I’m not convince yet so could you try to explain or tell me where in the Bible does it say. A women can not preach.

  28. Job said

    Victoria Frost:

    It says it right above: 1 Timothy 2:12 “But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.”

    That is the strongest statement. There are others to confirm it, as well as the long consistent history in the Bible in both testaments of ADULT men being in spiritual leadership with women and children taking other roles. It is a question of whether we want to obey the Bible or whether we want to follow the world.

    I know that it is tough to hear, and you might think that I am being one – sided and cavalier; since I am a man, I do not have these restrictions imposed on me. But let me mention something to you … as a black man growing up in the rural deep south, the racism thing was really hard to get over. I finally had to acknowledge the reality that racism was a sin just like anything else. You cannot defeat sin with education. You cannot defeat sin through politics or government, or by joining a civil rights group and applying pressure tactics. And even some born again Christians are going to be racists, because one of the John epistles said that the man who says that he is without sin is a liar. That epistle was not written to sinners about sinners, but to the church about the church. There was another epistle, either John or James, where church members are exhorted to confess their faults to one another, faults meaning sins and sinful traits. So while racism is a sin, so is lying, gossiping, being selfish or greedy, losing your temper, etc. and a bunch of other things that we really do not put much stock in. So, I had to learn to treat the racist in the same manner as the gossiper … with forgiveness and patience, and by awaiting for the return of Jesus Christ so that racism and all other sins will be forever defeated.

    Ultimately, though, what women should do is look at the godhead, and this is one of the reasons why the Trinity doctrine that either gets denied or treated as superfluous because some people insist on following and fellowshipping with anti – Trinitarians: the Son Jesus Christ submits to the Father, and the Holy Spirit submits to both Jesus Christ AND the Father. Consider that the Father is in heaven on His throne in the highest position, the furthest removed from the sin and corruption of creation. Jesus Christ took the next position, making appearances at certain times in the Old Testament (although some suggest that God the Father made some of the theophanies as well; I do not deny it, but it was DEFINITELY Jesus Christ who appeared to Joshua on the plains of Jericho … and consider that the actual name of Jesus IS Joshua … both are Yeshua in Hebrew, or should I say that Jesus is a flawed English translation of the Greek word for Yeshua) and became flesh and lived for a time among men in the New Testament and had to deal directly within Himself with sin, temptation, death, etc. becoming even lower than the angels in a sense for a time, and the Holy Spirit in the Old Testament was the glory of the Lord that dwelled in the tabernacle and temple and today indwells the believer and speaks not of His own but what He hears the Father and Son say and draws and convicts sinners. So the Holy Spirit is in constant direct contact with this fallen sinful world, the opposite of the Father who is almost totally removed from it, with Jesus Christ the son taking the middle position.

    And please realize that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are all equal. The positions of each is a model of willing submission and service so that each can make for an organization and fill necessary roles. So if Jesus Christ was able to become flesh for a time and also to submit Himself to the Father, and if the Holy Spirit has to submit to both while indwelling and hence dealing with sinful men and women on a constant basis, women should be able to deal with submitting to men, and children should be able to deal with submitting to women and men. In this respect, the Godhead itself is our example, and there is no excuse for rejecting God’s own template for the behavior of our church. Even though it must be tough as a woman to not be allowed to be a pastor and to be subject to a husband, God is not asking you to do something that He Himself has not done. This is especially true in the case of Jesus Christ, who as a child was subject to His own mother AND father. When Christ was learning and teaching in the temple, his mother and father came and told him to come home with them. Though Christ was doing His Father’s business and wanted to start His ministry by correcting the false doctrines of the scribes and Pharisees in order to provide more justice and mercy to the people even then, the God of all creation submitted to Joseph and Mary and left His task for a time.

    When you think of it, this also explains why Jesus Christ could not possibly have gotten married. He and his wife would have become one flesh, and realize that Paul stated that when that happens the wife’s body is owned by the husband’s AND the husband’s body is owned by the wife. A lot of implications with that, isn’t it?

    So, again, what God is asking you to give up during your life is NOTHING compared to what Jesus Christ had to give up during His. Keep that in mind when you struggle over this issue.

  29. djenk23 said

    i especially want to know how it works with woman pastors who have husbands….do they just ignore 1 Corinthians 11:3…..how can a woman be the head at church yet be under her husband at home….it doesnt add up…

  30. Eden Hadassah said

    For women, preaching is the forbidden fruit! Think about it.
    Is it really necessary for a woman to be a preacher? And if God says in his word that women should not be preachers, I would then question those women who say they were “led by the spirit” to become preachers. Can a woman be a teacher, or any number of other things that the bible speaks of…yes. The same holds true in the Old Testament. Women were not allowed to be high priests or priests and Levites with in the service of the temple courts. Is that ok, yes, because that is how God designed it to be. There seems to be far too much emphesis on what a woman can or can not do…especially in a supposed “free society.” Women do not want to be submissive to their husbands, because the word often is related to slavery or heavy handedness. We can look at the scriptures that say that a woman should be silent in church and ask her own husband at home, questions…but look at the beauty of this! First, it honor’s the husband, that he should be in relationship with his own wife, engaged in fellowship together about the Lord. No man should get in the middle of this. Second, it takes care of a woman’s need to be communicated with and loved by her husband. How often is it said in today’s society, “We just don’t talk,” or “He never wants to talk to me about anything.” Many men have created this cop-out of “I am just not a talker.” Well, they have a responsiblity to their wives to not only talk to them, but to love them as Christ loves the church. Third, a woman being silent in the church has great personal benefit…she gets to listen to everything, and see things from a different perspective. I do, however, think that some churches take this verse far to seriously, and impose many restrictions on women accordingly, while they tend to ignore very key biblical text that have to do with them. This is not balanced.
    My suggestion to you would be to do a study for yourself, going through the bible, and see the roles that God has for women.
    Here is a sticky one…
    Women are not allowed to preach, but can be given the gift of prophecy. That’s a tricky one! But there have been prophetess’ through out the old and new Testament, and the conduct of such women can be found to be in accord with the conduct for women in the New Testament. Ultimately, your relationship with the Lord must be first, and it must be built upon the truth of his word, so I encourage you to do an indepth study for yourself, and discuss it with your husband if you are married. It might spice things up a little.

  31. evangelist young said

    Praise the Lord,

    I just so happen to be doing some research when i came to this website. There seems to be some confusion on this topic when there really shouldn’t be at all. Not too long ago I was speaking to a co worker and told her that I knew I had a calling on my life to be a minister and God had confirmed it. Her response was that she didn’t believe that women should be ministers. My response to her was you do realize it’s not about what you believe but about the will of God. God’s will means he chooses people according to their hearts not by fleshly reasons.IT means he chooses whom he feels will best represent the kingdom. Now understand that there are corrupt men and women who are in postions to lead a ministry but have not been called by god nor do they really have a relationship with him because they teach the word from the flesh prospective. TO say women should not preach or teach does not come from God but from yourself and the author of that thought is the devil. IN the bible paul was quoted as saying that women should be silent in the churches and he is also quoted in saying that alot of the things he had to say about women God did not lead him to say but were merely his personal opinions. What he believed.
    (sound familiar?) I do not speak these things because I am a woman but because I love God and my heart and my focus is on the flock to edify and teach them so they may truly recieve the truth and grow to be the warriors they have been called to be. This is why we really need to learn about the adversary. It doesn’t matter how much you think you know because there is so much that i am learning and the more God shows me the more I am floored. Since Satan and his demons made his entry way through mankind by using adam and eve. Every culture was given a blueprint of lies to belive in. As indiviuals we accepted those lies (the blueprint) and past it on from generation to generation. In our ignorance we also accepted the lies as truth into our cultures and are still continuing to pass the blueprint today. But because of God there are so mny people who are resisting the lies (the blueprint). THe bible say that in the last days the love of many will grow cold. People are not going to care about other people and that also means that there will ministers who’s reasons for leading the flock will not be to lead them to God but to but for their own reasons. People who use god’s ministry to justify their sins have not trully confessed their sins to God nor do have they have a relationship with him. There was a woman in my worship service who testified that God gave her some herbal pills so when she has headaches she can take them. Most people would believe that man that is a great testimony. But the problem is that she does not realize that that she has not dealt with the core issue of why she has headaches in the first place. Sometimes we have ministers who go out without the Lord and they preach and teach about things that they themselves have not been delivered from. They call you to have faith when they themselves don’t because they use manipulation tactics or the bullwhip method towards flock to get their needs met. Whether they be man or woman all fall short of the glory and all will be judged accordingly.
    My prayer is that we will continue to seek God for truth before we run around speaking thing outside of the Lord’s will. That we will gettrue understanding in the spirit realm and that our levels of discernment will grow beyond the shallow top layer but deeper. Be blessed, be encouraged, and In the name of jesus Be on alert fo the devil is looking for those he can devour. ( Control) Amen

  32. Job said

    Evangelist Young:

    Sooo … because you had a personal revelation that opposes scripture, we are supposed to believe you over scripture? What about all the pastors that claim that God told them to leave their wives? What about Carlton Pearson, who claims that God told him that no one would go to the lake of fire? What about Jay Bakker (son of Jim and Tammy Bakker) who claims that God told him that He had changed his mind about homosexuality? What about Joseph Smith, founder of Mormonism? Why should we throw out scripture in your case but not everyone else’s? Ms. Young, I am very happy to say that in your case, along with everyone else’s, I will trust what God says rather than what you say. If you want to continue to rebel against the Bible, that is something that you are going to have to deal with on judgment day. But as for me and my house, we shall follow the Lord.

    “My prayer is that we will continue to seek God for truth before we run around speaking thing outside of the Lord’s will.”

    Where else are we going to find God’s truth rather than in the BIBLE? What you are looking for is an excuse to reject the Bible. Explain to me why the Bible is not authoritative in this matter.

    “That we will gettrue understanding in the spirit realm and that our levels of discernment will grow beyond the shallow top layer but deeper.”

    So you are saying that we should start taking the voices of spirits in places where we do not want to obey the Bible? And when and where should I do that? What if a spirit tells me that “thou shalt not kill” is negotiable? Or “thou shalt not steal” is debatable? “Thou shalt have no other gods before me?” A matter of opinion! Please. What you are advocating is no different from what the serpent told Eve in the Garden of Eden: thou shalt not surely die. Ms. Young, are you so much better than Eve to where you cannot be deceived by Satan and as a result do not need the commandments of God as your guide?

  33. evangelist young said

    Praise the the Lord,

    Job I read your response and was not surprised by it at all. DO you understand what God’s will means? Did you not read that all God’s servants were chosen because of their hearts. do not think in the flesh and concentrate on the mere fact of some were men. God chooses who he desires and whether you believe that is what you choose to believe. GOd’ will is going to be done whether you or anybody likes it or not. You seem to be very angry when it is not neccessary. Once I read your reponse I could tell you took everything I said out of context.Which is okay. there was a guy who I spoke to once and he said the same thing as you did that he did not believe when people said that they had personal experiences with God. At first I was offended until God showed me that the only reason why he had spoken it was because he himself self was not having personal experiences with him (God). THe on thing I have learned from studying the bible is God is so clever and intelligent and how he put the word together is awesome. Not everyone is going to see the the deeper things or understand them if they do not seek God on a deeper level. There is no need to be angry or offended nor is there any reason to assume that because of God revelations in my life that I must not be on track. For God is a God of Confirmation. HE never leads his flocks blind. But Satan does. Sometimes what we choose to believe is so powerful that we don’t realize what we do to ourselves spiritually. How we block ourselves from truth, how we stay on the wide path to hell instead of the narrow.THe path way to God is so narrow and only few shall find it. So the truth is whether you recieve what I have typed I will by no means change the course of my journey with God. I am not out to prove myself to anyone. WHen I minister to people all I care about is that they hear the truth and that they truly be delivered. It’s not about money, or people lifting me up. I am but a mere person, a tool of God’s, for him to use me as he so desires. So thank you for your response and I will lift you and you family up in prayer. may you be blessed and may you come to know God’s truth and understanding in depth.

  34. Job said

    evangelist young:

    I can either believe you or your private revelation, or I can believe God. To you, the Bible is a buffet. You can accept and reject whatever portion of it conveniences you. Seriously, what makes you any better than anyone who claims that God told them that homosexuality is OK? That God told them to leave their wives? What makes you better than Joseph Smith, who said God told him to write the Book of Mormon? I am serious. What is it about you that makes me accept your deviation from the Bible while rejecting everyone else’s?

    Answer that question. You failed to last time, just as you failed to address any of the points made in the paper linked to above.

  35. evangelist young said

    Job,

    thank you for your reply. I actually had been checking to see if you would. By no means do I look at myself as better than someone else or less. I’ve learned that some people are argumentative and they really aren’t looking for the truth. Their just looking for someone they can bully. I don’t really believe this is about whether I think I am better than someone else or if God is calling me . I think this is about someone who has deep issue about women being in charge. Sometimes we think we know God and we think we know his voice but in actual reality we know nothing at all. I can spend my wheels trying to convince you but what is the point. you are free to choose what you believe as am I. GOD’s children know God’s voice. If I was to tell you what makes me different I don’t think you still would accept it. Job their are people who are in this world to confuse and use people and their only reason for doing the things they do is to get something out of it from themselves. There are many different doctrines out there and there alot of people who claim they have the truth and to know which one is the right one takes discernment from God. I think the most dangerous thing I have encountered as a christian is that people are quick to judge and speak against someone else’s walk with GOD and again hinder themselves instead of hurting that person. I have prayed to God alot that he will train me to carry myself they way jesus carried himself. The funny part is jesus came from GOD and he was telling them the truth and people still didn’t believe him. Just as you do not believe me and again that is okay. I am not wounded or hurt. THere is no need to be. Because freewill is gift given to everyone. like I said last time don’t assume in arrogance and foolishness that I am on the wrong path. there have been some who thought the same thing but yet instead those same people saw how god was moving in my life and delivering me from alot of things. I am standing in GOd no matter what you or anybody else believes.I was just remembering what it said in the bible about arguing over whether someone is right or wrong for what they believe or eat. Arguing view points is true sign of spiritual immaturity. FOR if you are right or wrong God will show you(unless he decides to leave the veil over your mind) and he will show me as well. So again thank you for the reponses I enjoyed reading them. be blessed and encouraged.

  36. John Kaniecki said

    Evangelist Young,

    Hi hope you are well.

    If I understand correctly you are a women preacher. Not only are you in conflict with Paul but Jesus as well. For Jesus choose twelve men to be His apostles.

    Now you say that you have personal blessings in your life. Praise God for that! But that is no sign of God’s blessing. Look at Jacob and Easu. Jacob got God’s blessing didn’t he? Yet when Jacob met Easu what were the circumstances? Jacob has his two wives, their hand maidens and their children. Esau had four hundred men. No by worldly standards whom did it appear to have the blessing?

    I suggest you really pray and search the scriptures. If you start to deny one of God’s commands then it is expedient to disobey more. Don’t pretend we can know God’s mind, it is beyond us. Just humble yourself to His will.

    I’ll be praying for you.

    Love,

    John

  37. evangelist young said

    praise the Lord,

    Hello John. Thank you for your response. There is no need to be sarcastic in your reponse to me. I find it amazing that people are so quick to judge others and even more that we have convinced ouselves that we know truth when the very words we utter say otherwise. IT is true that God selected 12 men to be taught and trained up to be disciples. But do not think with your flesh mind because to do that is to hinder yourself from recieving the truth. Again I stress the importance of understanding what God’s will is. IT means HE chooses who HE desires whether they be man or woman adult or child. It is not about what you believe or think. people allow satan to decieve them into believing that men are the only ones who can do this or that. DO you remember harriet tubman? She told the slaves that God was talking to her and told her to take the slaves to freedom. Can you imagine what the men thought. I ain’t listening to her! She said God told her to tell us to follow her if we want to be free. THat sounds like the devil to me! GOd telling a woman to free us? HOw she gonna free us when she got struck up side her head by master! BUt never the less those who chose to believe that GOD was using her left with her and were set free and those that chose to stay and not believe the truth remained in bondage.
    It is also important to understand that many people who are trying to interpret the word are not interpretating it from the spirit but from the flesh.(satan’s way)for exsample not comprehending what I spoke about GOD blessing me in my life. I wasn’t talking about material things. GOd taught me something that I would like to share. Not every good thing comes from him and not every bad thing comes from the devil. Sometimes we are so caught up in the materialistic things of this world and we are none the less still lost. we gain so many nice trinkets and cars and clothes but but we don’t have the real blessings and that is what i was referring to. TO have peace when everyone else is running around like a chicken with it’s head cut off. To have joy and happiness when the people around you are stressed and depressed. to go from having a vitims menatlity to becoming more than a conquerer. THose are the blessings I was referring to. You know I could spend the rest of my days on this website trying to convince you and other men like you to believe me but I think I will do what jesus did. HE did not concentrate on the dead but the living. The energy that I would use up to debate when there is no debate at all would be senseless. There are people who are spiritually dying and are in bondage to the sins in their lives and they don’t know how to be free. So I can choose to continue doing this or I can choose to help those who really want to hear the truth. Hmmm…I choose to help those people who really want it. Thank for your reponse as for me this will be my last one. I really did enjoy reading how people percieve GOD and his word. Be blessed and thank for the prayers. God bless.

  38. John Kaniecki said

    Evangelist Young,

    Hi hope you are well.

    I don’t know which part of my words you attribute to sarcasm but I intended none. I apologize if you took it that way.

    I could never be an elder in the Chuch. Why is that? Even if I had lots of wisdom and knew the Bible word for word I would not be qualified. Why? Because an elder must have faithful children and I have none. So no matter how much I desire to do so it is not a role I can take.

    Now yourself as as woman can evangelize or even teach. But as far as preaching in an assembly with men the Bible tells us that is not the proper role for a woman.

    Harriet Tubman a brave and wonderful woman as far as I know, but she wasn’t preaching in front of an assembly. And regarding people calling others crazy for their message the same thing was said about our Lord Jesus.

    The problem is that once you stop following the Word of God and make exceptions you create a real mess. Believe it when I say there are things in the Word which are hard for me to accept. I cannot dismiss them for any reason.

    So beware a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump.

    Love,

    John

  39. Danni said

    Hi,

    I as a woman have found nothing but the most wonderful freedom and joy in obeying God’s commands to us as women.

    He is the Alpha and Omega and He is in charge and has ordained men only to be pastors in the churches. He knows what is best for women while we live on this earth.

    I have found nothing but cat-fights, bickering, gossip and slander where women upsurp God’s Word and in their own flesh try to be “pastors” of churches.

    This is nothing but pure rebellion against God and His Holy Word.

  40. Alison said

    Well, Healtheland, it seems that your reasoning against the validity of women preaching is more based on your personal feeling and anger in relation to some female preachers you came in contact with or was exposed to. I am not saying that you should change your mind, but I think your argument would be more valid if it were based on scriptural evidence and did not have so much jargon about your personal upset and displeasure with individual women preachers. Also, since some argue that women aren’t supposed to preach to men and should only teach young women and children, perhaps that is why so many female ministries are female-centered. Also, there are many male preachers who make their ministries female-centered. I don’t think female-centered ministries are all the result of some feminist/liberal agenda, but more based on the face that women make up the majority of church memberships and paying tithers. You may have observed this as well, but I think MOST preachers today (male and female) are more like charlatans out to make whatever money they can by telling people what they want to hear. If you can make more money being female-centered (and the fact is that you can), then why wouldn’t you (if you are more concerned with “profitcy” than with prophecy)?

    So, you’re probably wondering what my stance on the whole issue is. Well, from what I understand the Bible to teach (based on Old Testament prophetesses and New Testament instances of women leading and teaching), I think that God truly does call some women to be preachers, teachers, and sometimes pastors. And if God is telling somebody what to do, they need to obey HIM, not other people who may disagree based on THEIR interpretation of the word. Some individuals’ interpretation are based on sincere beliefs, while some or based on forcing scripture to conform to their personal insecurities.

  41. Alison said

    Well, I just read post number 25 by Dianne, and she put into words what I was thinking, but couldn’t verbalize. I do believe that most of the time, God calls men to pastor churches and preach messages. But if there are regions, times, and situations where the men are all disobeying God, while there are a portion of women who are obeying Him, God is not so hateful of women that He would have a sinner lead a church just to avoid having a woman do it. In fact, God is not hateful at all! I have my own struggles with women preachers because of the many I have seen who are haughty, gossipy, contentious and (sometimes) manhating. But then I realized that I was actually letting discrimination and sexism be the reason for that. Because I have also seen many men (more actually) who are haughty, gossipy, contentious and woman-hating, but I did not let that make me think that males should not be preachers. So I have concluded that, like other situations, it is not MY place to say who should or should not be preaching based on their sex, race, or any other physical trait. The Bible says to know a person by their fruit. So if I see someone, male or female, who calls themself a miniser of God, but does not have the fruit of a minister of God, that is what I will use to decided that they should not be preaching/leading.

  42. bill said

    all you have to do is read 1 corinthians chapter 14 vs33 thru 38 and the answer from god is clearly stated..he commands women not to have leadership in the church..the lord has spoken..

  43. bill said

    i want to clarify the message that i left above earlier…when i said’ the lord has spoken’ i was not referring to me but rather what is written in corinthians is not my words but HIM who made me and lives forever..all glory to GOD in jesus name..amen

  44. Yael said

    Amen,

    The more a woman is filled by the Holy Spirit – the more she will love the instructions in the Holy Bible. She wont rebel against them or tussel with them – she will obey them.

    Although I feel some women are called to teach. But within the confines of scripture. Teach other women how to be good wives and mothers. Teach how to be nurturers.

    I dont have a problem with the holy scriptures – actually I find comfort in them.

  45. Elsie said

    Paul says “I do not permit women to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent.” I agree with the word of God, but I see here that Paul says “I do not permit”, he did not say “God does not permit”.
    I believe that only men have the authority to be pastors and leaders in the congregation. But I also believe that in some instances God has raised a woman to prophecy and to be a judge, etc.. When God chose these women to do a specific work, these women where humble women, godly women. I see in these days a lot of disharmony in the church with many women ministring. I don’t think they where called by God. One of the things that astonishes me is how these women dress when they stand in the pulpit. How can a man visit such congregation and stay connected with “the word” when this woman is dressed in a provocative way? There is nothing humble about that and there is nohing holy about that either. We have to be watchful and careful that we do not provoque others to fall.

    • Job said

      Elise:

      ““I do not permit women to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent.” I agree with the word of God, but I see here that Paul says “I do not permit”, he did not say “God does not permit”.”

      When Paul was saying “I do not permit”, he was speaking from the position of authority as an apostle of Jesus Christ. So, what an apostle permitted or denied was based on revelation from Jesus Christ, and therefore binding to the church. That was the real meaning of the oft-misunderstood “binding and loosing” passages of Matthew 16:19 and Matthew 18:18, which is that the apostles, being appointed by Jesus Christ and received the revelation directly from Jesus Christ, had the right to establish doctrines and practices for the early church and those thereafter. This is not to say that Paul was divine in any sense, only that he spoke in the Name of God just as did an Old Testament prophet. When Paul was giving an opinion that he didn’t want to be considered binding, he said so in verses like 1 Corinthians 7:6 when he gave his opinion that it is better not to marry. Please note that in another place (1 Titus 4:3) Paul called forbidding to marry a devil’s doctrine.

      “But I also believe that in some instances God has raised a woman to prophecy and to be a judge, etc..”

      That is clear. God also raises up female deacons. The issue is the offices of pastor and teacher, not of evangelist, prophet or deacon.

      By the way, the Bible clearly lays out the role of elder spiritually gifted women in the church, which is to instruct younger women in faith and practice and to tend to the moral and spiritual development of children. In these times Christian woman have despised the role intended and laid out by God for them in order to seek the roles that God has set aside for men. You can see the negative effects on young women and children that result from this neglect. Ironically, the confusion in the church that results in the neglect of young women and children (as confused young women and children today become the very confused people who wind up leading churches 30 years down the line) is what is used as an excuse to justify female pastors.

      For instance, a lot of people claim that there should be women leaders because there aren’t enough suitable male leaders, and they use Deborah in the time of the Judges as their proof-text. What they ignore is that the lack of suitable male leaders is precisely because of the refusal of elder women to instruct young mothers and of young mothers to instruct young women. And the proof-text of this is not only that of the kings in Israel (meaning that the kings who had righteous mothers who followed the Lord themselves followed the Lord, but the kings who had wicked mothers turned away from the Lord, and this was the case regardless of the spiritual condition of the father … a godly king and a rotten queen would produce rotten a rotten kid inheriting the throne, but a rotten king and a godly queen would produce a good child who would go on to become king) but also that Deborah herself had to rule because of Israel’s spiritual apostasy, their turning against God, at the time.

      So, it speaks volumes that the women who use the lack of suitable male leaders as an excuse to be pastors and teachers are perfectly willing to personally profit from the dire straits that the church is in. That makes you nothing but a spiritual scalawag or carpetbagger. (If you are not from the American South, look the terms up … they mean someone who exploits a great tragedy for personal gain.) The proper response for Christian women to the lack of good male leaders in this generation is to adhere to what the Bible says regarding instructing younger women and children so that the next generation will have strong male leaders for the church. And this is precisely what the God-fearing queens of Israel who were married to evil husbands did. They did not attempt coups against their husbands so that they could rule righteously in their husband’s stead. (Consider that the only female usurper of the throne of Israel was the Baal worshiper Athaliah.) Instead, they raised their sons to know and fear God so that righteous rule would return in the next generation. The righteous queens of Israel knew the merits of adhering to God’s plan instead of following after their own human designs. Christian women chasing feminism idolatry would do well to follow their example. This is ever so more the case of Pentecostal women for whom female pastors is commonly accepted, as Pentecostals are known for their particular emphasis on Old Testament types and examples.

  46. [...] Comments Elsie on Regarding Women Preachers: I A…Job on Regarding Women Preachers: I A…Elsie on Regarding Women Preachers: I A…Diane on [...]

  47. Christine said

    Just “some food for thought” here, but in neither passage in question did Paul speak about “women” (in general) saying all “women” were to be subject to all “men”. When Paul speaks of subjection it is always THE WIFE to HER OWN HUSBAND. Why? Because this is a picture of CHRIST and THE CHURCH (Paul even goes on to tell us explicitly that he was speaking about “Christ and the church” when he was saying that the husband is the head of the wife (husbands and wives are actually supposed to submit “to each other”).

    So we know that Paul uses the husband/wife relationship (even Adam and Eve) to teach us spiritual truths about “Christ and the Church”, right? And how does the passage in 1 Tim end? Does it not end with ADAM AND EVE? With Paul saying: “NEVERTHELESS, SHE shall be saved in childbearing, if THEY continue in faith”?

    Paul said: “I suffer not ~A~ woman to teach, or usurp authority over ~THE~ man”.

    Don’t forget that it was also Paul who said: “Henceforth know we NO MAN AFTER THE FLESH” (2 Cor 5:16) and “There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is NEITHER MALE NOR FEMALE: for ye are ALL ONE in Christ Jesus.”

    Why would a man who said those things turn around and tell us that we are to judge others according to the flesh when it comes to the ministry of the gospel? Think about it!!

    If you want to accuse others of “picking and choosing” so they can violate the word of God and accuse them of being “apostate” then why do you disregard these “clear” passages of scripture in order to maintain your position against women?

    Paul was not talking about women being subject to men and men being the ones given authority in the church. Have you looked up the word used in that passage for “authority”? That type of “authority” was never even given to “men”.

    The passage is not about “men” and “women” it is about “A woman” and “THE man”. It is about CHRIST AND THE CHURCH and when it comes to Christ and the church there is only ONE MAN (CHRIST). The rest of us fall under “the woman” (EVE).. the one who needs to be “delivered of the child” (ie “saved in childbearing”), just as PAUL was (1 Cor 13:11), just as Jesus Christ told all of his disciples (all MEN) that they would need to be (John 16).

    The same goes for the passage in 1 Cor 14. Paul says: “Let YOUR WOMEN keep silence in the churches…”. What was he addressing? Was it not the “confusion”? Is God the author of confusion? Why do think Paul asked the question: “What? came the word of God OUT FROM you? or came it UNTO you only?”

    We are to LEARN in silence in all subjection… we are NOT TO BE “ever learning and never able to come to a knowledge of the truth” (keep reading! these are Paul’s words).

    It is those who are STILL LEARNING (ie “babes”, who are “yet carnal”… and the spiritual equivalent of “the woman” who needs to be “delivered of the child”) who are not to be teaching others. This applies to the whole body of Christ, both men and women.

    Until CHRIST is formed in us (which is what Paul waited for. See Gal 4:19) so that the word of God can come OUT OF US, not just UNTO US we are not able to teach (as we OUGHT… we are still in need of one TO TEACH US. See Heb 5:12).

    Paul even introduced Phebe (a woman) to the church in Rome as a “diakonos” (deacon). He also said that she was a “prostatis” which is a woman SET OVER OTHERS. It is the feminine of “proïstēmi” which also means “to be over, to superintend, preside over”

    Like Minister Nona said, perhaps we should be looking more at “the spirit” rather than “the letter”. The letter kills; the spirit gives life. And Jesus said His words are spirit and they are life, right? So we need to hear what THE SPIRIT is saying UNTO THE CHURCHES (made up of men and women, but in whom there is “no male and female”), right?

    Again, just something to think about.

    Christine

  48. Daniel said

    People can write all the fancy articles they want. They can talk about signs and wonders done by women preachers etc. My bible says people will be saying to God,,,”did we not do many miracles etc?” and He will say to them…”depart from Me, I never knew you.”
    If you are a woman preacher…you are an apostate, plain and simple. 1 Timothy 2:11-15

  49. Newbie_Christian said

    Christine

    Thanks for that explanation. Guess notbody really looked at it that way. Was gonna ask the other ladies (Minister Nora, Diane…) What is meant in that scripture exactly, but you’ve clarified it. Can you please clarify 1Cor14:34-35 for me as well. I’m a newbie Christian so most things I read in the bible I take literally. Thanks :-) and God Bless You

    • Christine said

      Hi Newbie, Sorry it took me so long to reply. I was having computer problems when I first got notification of you post to me, but then forgot all about it. As I said earlier, I believe that when Paul says “let your women keep silence in the church” he is addressing the confusion that was then present in the church at Corinth. I do not believe that he was speaking about “women” according to the flesh but those Christians (regardless of gender) who were “babes in Christ” (yet to be “delivered of the child”) who were in no position to be teaching others, as they were still in need of one to teach them. If we look to the OT we can see that (spiritually speaking) a “woman” is the (spiritual) equivalent to “a child” or “a babe”. In Isa 3:4 is says: “And I will give CHILDREN to be their princes, and BABES shall rule over them.” Surely no one believes that this is speaking of literal children/babes ruling over the people of God? Even Paul, in the NT, speaks of being “a child” himself, thinking “as a child” and understanding “as a child” UNTIL he “became a man” (was “delivered of the child”; ie “saved in childbearing”). That happens only when THE MAN (Christ) “is formed in you”. This is what Paul waited for in those whom he called “my little children”. If you have not yet been “born again” by the word of God, that incorruptible seed that is “in you” that the Word is not (yet) coming “out of you” it has only come “unto you” and if that is the case then we are in no position to to be a shepherd of the sheep “in Christ’s stead”. We are not to be teaching others if we are still in need of one to teach us. We are TO LEARN in silence (“Be silent, O all flesh, before the LORD”) and all subjection – until Christ (THE MAN) is formed in us and we are able to teach by the power of the Holy Spirit, wherein we can speak THE TRUTH by the wisdom of God that is made manifest in/through those whom God has placed into the body as teachers, for the edification of the whole. That placement is not based on one’s “anatomy”, it is not “according to the flesh” (we are to know no man according to the flesh) but according to the spirit and the high calling of God through Jesus Christ.

    • Daniel said

      Newbie…do not let the wolves and deceivers deceive you. If it is written, especially in the New Testament, then that is what it means. The fake Christians of today reject any scripture, and justify any unbiblical practice they desire. They have plenty of teachers that say what their itching each want to hear. God gave us His word. When we meet Him to give an account, we will not be able to just say, so and so said I could reject your word, that it was okay. You will be held accountable with what you do or do not do with the scriptures you have been given.
      If you choose to be obedient to the scriptures and be a true follower of Christ, you will face strong opposition, and many forces out to deceive you and draw you away from obeying the truth. They will twist and distort, justify and glory in their obedience.
      Be one of the few, one of the Christians that still stand on the word of God.
      Do not become apostate, like the massive groups of Christians and denominations have become today. Stay true to God and His word at all cost. To reject the scriptures and embrace positions contrary, is to embrace spirits opposed to the God. Daniel

      • Daniel said

        They will twist and distort, justify and glory in their “disobedience”.
        Fixed from below post…..

      • Christine said

        So you all don’t believe Paul really meant that we are to know no man according to the flesh? Interesting!! Why do you suppose it is women who feel they are called to teach who have “itching ears” and not those men who like believing that God is a respecter of persons and does not trust women to teach?

        • Daniel said

          I believe the word of God…I do not add, or take away from it.
          1st Timothy 2:11-15 is clear. Also the bible says the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, they will gather to themselves teachers that will say what they want to hear. Which will not be in line with scripture.
          They will tell them to pursue cash and prosperity, to forget the scriptures that it is a new day. That homosexuality is fine, women can teach and preach, fornication is okay, there is no dress code…you can wear anything you want, mini skirts skin tight jeans, run around virtually naked on the beach.
          Guys can lust and get drunk…God just wants you to have “your best life now.”
          These people do not love Jesus or God. They despise His word and worship a fairytale they created in their own minds.
          You have a choice…join the apostate falling away church of today, or remain true to God and the scriptures.

          • Christine said

            There is NO MALE AND FEMALE in Christ as all ARE ONE. It is “clear” that we are to KNOW NO MAN AFTER THE FLESH. Would that include seeing them as “male” or “female” ACCORDING TO THE FLESH? Yes, it would. So then what is THE SPIRIT saying to the church (A WOMAN made up of MALE AND FEMALE)? Perhaps’s 1 Tim 2:11-15 isn’t as “clear” as you might think and (just like all of God’s truths) has to be “spiritually discerned” which means that we have to “compare spiritual things with spiritual” in order to “rightly divide the word of truth”. Perhaps, to do that one needs to understand who “a woman” is after a spiritual truth rather than a carnal one? Especially as it relates to Adam and Eve (CHRIST AND THE CHURCH) who is exactly who Paul references in verse 13. He even speaks of “her” being “saved in childbearing” if THEY continue in faith. He is speaking of THE CHURCH and THE CHURCH is made up of both sexes, Daniel! Even “men” (according to the flesh) have to be “delivered of the child”. Jesus himself speaks of this in John. It’s mentioned in the OT and Paul speaks of his own “travail in birth”. So it’s not just about “added to” or “taking away” from the scriptures in the way that you might think. It’s about “rightly dividing” the word of truth so that it can be properly understood, as the natural man cannot understand that which is “spiritually discerned”. So what are the chances that the “literal” reading is always the most accurate?

            • Daniel said

              “There is no male or female, no Jew or gentile”.

              This is the verse you refer to, and it is according to being one on Christ….not that there is literally no difference.

              For example…if there is no literal Jew or Gentile, then why are only the Jews being gathered back into their own land as many prophecies foretold? I guess there are literal Jews and Gentiles. Also why is there stern warning in Romans 11 about being prideful against the Jews?
              Once again there is literal difference.
              So are men supposed to be the head of the home…as the scriptures say, or is that also now null and void?
              How about homosexuals..are they off the hook because you say there is no literal male or female?
              Or maybe where it says to love your wife as Christ loved the church can be voided out as well, after all if there is no literal male or female, then there can be no literal wife? Do you see how one cannot take scriptures out of context? The scriptures say what they mean…they are to be obeyed. This generation is one of disobedience and pride. The Falling away is in full
              swing. You can choose to join the apostate scripture rejecter’s, or you can stand with the remnant, who will never reject and dismiss scripture.
              Daniel

  50. Paul said that, “therefore from now on we recognize no man according to the flesh.” In order to fully understand this verse, we should put this statement in context by examining the entire passage. We start with 2CO 5:14-15;

    “For the love of Christ controls us, that one died for all, therefore all died; and He died for all, so that they who live might no longer live for themselves, but for Him who died and rose again on their behalf.”

    Paul starts by reminding us of who we are as believers. We are no longer to live according to the standards of the world, but as Christian believers, we are part of the body of Christ, who died for us, and we are to live according to His standards. Fighting against the standard is fighting against God and it is rebellion; is as the sin of witchcraft.

    “Therefore from now on we recognize no one according to the flesh.”

    Paul is telling us that as believers we must adjust our way of thinking in the way we that we judge others. When he says we are to no longer know someone(after the flesh), he means we are to stop using our own pre-conceived standards to pass judgmen on others. He goes on to say there is a new (Christ-like)way of thinking which applies not only to how we judge others but also how we see ourselves, and even how we understand the nature of Jesus Christ. The verse does not mean women have the right to hold a office or position of authority in the Church body, for paul spelled it out.

    Does this verse get any clearer? “I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man.” 1 Timothy 2:12

    I will not read into it or attempt to look for ways to justify the male male-dominated Church of that day. This is what the apostles saw and what was taught. But to say a woman can do anything a man can do may be right, but that does not mean it is expedient.

    “All things are lawful for me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but all things edify not.”

    All things are lawful, yet there are many things which are not expedient; that is, which do not profit, (sympherō) meaning; they are injurious and hurtful. They might injure the body; produce scandal; lead others to offend or to sin (rebellion against the apostles teachings). The issue does not build up the body, therefore it destroys. There is no two way anything, and should be cast out; sticking to the words written by the apostle, which is “I suffer not a woman to teach or to unsurp authority over a man.”
    It is rebellion; a desire for equality that fuels this fire.

    • Christine said

      In what “context” does “henceforth know we no man after the flesh” not mean exactly what it says? When does the fact that there is “no male and female” in Christ, as we are all one, not mean exactly that, Rev. Williams? You read “the letter” and miss what “the spirit” is saying to THE CHURCHES (A WOMAN). When it comes to THE SPIRIT “a woman” is the spiritual equavilent of A BABE, A CHILD, who is “yet carnal”. Therefore, “she” is not permitted to teach. As “she” is in need of one to teach her. NOTWITHSTANDING “she shall be saved in childbearing IF THEY continue in faith…” Paul is talking about ONE MAN (CHRIST) and ONE WOMAN (THE CHURCH), in which case even you (a “man” according to THE FLESH) are a part of that “woman”. And we are not allowed to teach UNTIL Chirst (THE MAN) is formed IN US and the word is coming “out of” us and “unto us” only.

  51. “henceforth know we no man after the flesh”

    Meaning: Christ died for us, and if we desire to live for Him, then our view of others has to change. No longer do we see people through the world’s eyes, but since Christ now lives within us we see others through the eyes of Christ. Paul saw Christ as the enemy before his change, but now he no longer sees Him through eyes of flesh, and neither should we.

    You wrote: “When does the fact that there is “no male and female” in Christ, as we are all one, not mean exactly that.”

    In Christ there is no one man or woman great than another. We are not to view a slave as less, or a rich person as more. It has nothing to the with positions within the body of Christ.
    From now on we no man according the flesh. As all have died to live new lives for Christ, they are not Jews and Gentiles; Romans, Greeks but all are Christians, not to be known as belonging to the old fleshly race longer. Though we have known Christ after the flesh. The Christ risen and sitting on the throne as our Lord is not in the flesh, and the Christ to whom the church adores is that risen Christ.

    You wrote: “When it comes to THE SPIRIT “a woman” is the spiritual equavilent of A BABE, A CHILD, who is “yet carnal”. Therefore, “she” is not permitted to teach. As “she” is in need of one to teach her. NOTWITHSTANDING “she shall be saved in childbearing IF THEY continue in faith…” Paul is talking about ONE MAN (CHRIST) and ONE WOMAN (THE CHURCH), in which case even you (a “man” according to THE FLESH) are a part of that “woman”.”

    The scipture you are using from Revelation (You read “the letter” and miss what “the spirit” is saying to THE CHURCHES) has nothing to do with what regarding knowing a man ot the man (Jesus)after the flesh. You’re using it to justify what you believe.

    You wrote: “When it comes to THE SPIRIT “a woman” is the spiritual equavilent of A BABE, A CHILD, who is “yet carnal”

    Beloved was written to men. “Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil.”
    You picked from a set of verses that do not describe a womans role, but a man.

    So keeping things in context lets look at the preceding verse. “(For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)

    Ah! A Man rules the house of God and his own home. You’re rebelling against truth. Go in peace and sin no more.

    • Christine said

      Knowing no man “after the flesh” has nothing to with whether or not one is a slave or free. We are not all all “made free” in Christ, we are also to be “servants” of Christ. Neither does it have anything to do with whether one is rich or poor. What has that got to do with with “the flesh”? or with there being “NO MALE AND FEMALE” as all “ALL ARE ONE”. God is not a respector of persons, yet you claim that not only are we to judge “according to the flesh” so does God! We all (regardless of gender) receive “teh adoption of sons” by having Christ (THE SON) formed “in us”. This is exactly what Paul said He waited for and exactly what it means for “the woman” (the church) to be “delivered of the child” (as the heir as long as he is A CHILD differs nothing from a servant… he is NOT A SON). Again, we have to compare spiritual things with spiritual in order to rightly divide the word of truth. This requires spiritual disernment and is why Paul says that we look NOT upon those thing which “are seen” (which are temporal) but upon those things which ARE NOT SEEN (which are eternal). The MAN who rules the house of God IS CHRIST, my friend. It is not a seat that can be usurped by anyone, woman OR MAN! The type of “authority” which Paul speaks of (with regard to “a woman” usurping it fromm “a man” WAS NEVER GIVEN TO ANYONE, not even “men”. We are to SERVANTS one to another AND NOT “Lords” over another man’s faith.

      • You wrote: This requires spiritual disernment and is why Paul says that we look NOT upon those thing which “are seen” (which are temporal) but upon those things which ARE NOT SEEN (which are eternal). The MAN who rules the house of God IS CHRIST, my friend. It is not a seat that can be usurped by anyone, woman OR MAN! The type of “authority” which Paul speaks of (with regard to “a woman” usurping it fromm “a man” WAS NEVER GIVEN TO ANYONE, not even “men”. We are to SERVANTS one to another AND NOT “Lords” over another man’s faith.

        You are seeking to appear spiritual but are misled. Every seminary and university teaches about people like you and what you are doing is calling spirtualizing. This occurs when believers think they have discovered deep, secret meaning that the author never intended.

        When a person begans to be superspiritual,Ie. (The MAN who rules the house of God IS CHRIST, my friend); when there are no supporting scripture verse that agrees with this concussion, they have moved from into the area of reader response where they are the one who is determing the meaning rather than the text.
        In your zeal to spiritualize; which by the way sounds like you belong to a Latter Rain, or Joels army church- which teaches spiritualizing everything; you have missed the message God intended. In essence substituting your words and thoughts for His words. The Bible clearly tells us we are not to add to the word, and that is a form of this sin.

        The q

        • Christine said

          You can call it whatever you want if it makes it easier for you to just dismiss something by putting it into a box with a negative label on it. But I am not the one who said that the truths of God require spiritual discernment so if you do not believe the scriptures that you claim I am twising just because I quote them then what do you wamt me to do about it? Dismiss whatever you want to dismiss!! But don’t claim that “there is no scriptural support” for something that I gave you scripture for. And don’t act as if the natural man can discern spiritual truth when the scriptures very clearly say that he cannot! Only the Holy Spirit can teach us and lead us “into all truth”, Reverend. And if you don’t believe THAT than you have no buiness calling yourself a “Reverend” or even claiming to believe the bible.

          • When working on my Masters I listened to a seminary teacher who taught hermeneutics, and he made a statement I will never forget. He said:

            “What often separates an effective Christain interpreter from an ineffective one is his or her level of spiritual maturity. The zealous but immature believer is typically the one who will come up with the most off the wall interpretations. He or she loves the Lord and means well, but such a person is spiritually immature, and it shows up in the way he or she interprets the Bible. Spiritual mayurity includes learning how to listen to the divine Author by submitting to His Word.

            The bottom line is, God speaking through Paul “I suffer not a woman to teach.”

            • Christine said

              Paul did not suffer “a woman” to teach. But that doesn’t mean that you have a proper understanding of who that “woman” is. Nor do you seem to understand that YOU are part of “the woman” of which Christ (“the man”) is THE HEAD. And, yes, it has EVERYTHING to do with “spritiual maturity”. And those “silly women” are NOT TO BE “ever learning and never able to understand the truth” (keep reading into the next chapter).

  52. john kaniecki said

    Hello,

    Hope all are well.

    The problem here is not reading all the scriptures. This happens in many areas.

    For example some will say belief and confession of Jesus is Lord is enough for salvation. They fail to read Mark 16:16 “He that believeth and baptized will be saved.” Also regarding baptism, every conversion in the book of Acts has baptism.

    Love,

    John Kaniecki

  53. Hi John.

    The word of God tells us that woman can not serve as Pastor, elders or bishops, all one position, in the church. When Paul said “I suffer not a woman to teach or unsurp authority over a man” it is not to be questioned, or to be down graded by saying oh I don’t think Paul meant that because we are all one in Christ. It is what it is.

    Can a woman be an evangelist, yes! Is that ministry. Yes! Does that give her authority over a man, no! Many are confusing ministry with callings and gifts. The reason we see woman prophets in the Bible is because they had the gifts of prophecy not the leadership calling, not the same.

    1 Corinthains 11:3 “But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman [is] the man; and the head of Christ [is] God.”

    I have met thousands of women ministers, and each one gladly accepted their role. Each one allowed a male figure (Bishop, elder)to be over them and to guide them. As Christ is over man.

    • Christine said

      Rev, are you telling me that no spiritual discernemtn is require? That we don’t need the Holy Spirit? That anyone can understand spirutal truths. Is that what you bible says? Which translation? And are you seriously trying to tell me that there is no scriptural support from CHRIST being the Head of the chuch, HIS BODY?

    • Christine said

      Also, please look at “the order” of the words, as they are very important. Paul said that “the head OF EVERY MAN is Chirst, the head of THE WOMAN is THE MAN, and the head of CHRIST is GOD.

      He did not go from women to men to Christ to God!! You are missing what THE SPIRIT is saying TO THE CHURCHED (= THE WOMAN). And the head of THE WOMAN (CHURCH) is THE MAN (CHRIST).

  54. Christine said

    Rom 16:1-2 I commend unto you Phebe our sister, which is a servant (diakonos = deacon) of the church which is at Cenchrea: That ye receive her in the Lord, as becometh saints, and that ye assist her in whatsoever business she hath need of you: for she hath been a succourer (prostatis = a woman set over others, a leader; it is the fem derivative of proïstēmi) of many, and of myself also.

  55. Christ is the head of the church. Not me or you or anyone else.

    You wrote:”Paul said that “the head OF EVERY MAN is Chirst, the head of THE WOMAN is THE MAN, and the head of CHRIST is GOD.”

    That is correct. And you wrote it yourself. Christ over every man, man the head of woman, and God over all.. Its called order, because woman was deceived, not man, so he guides her. What don’t you understand?

    Now as for the Greek word diakonia, it is translated to mean service; or ministry. That does not mean (Elder, Pastor, Bishop). I’m a minister not a Pastor. God did not call me to Pastor. Those who do not have the leadership gift have no understand until the Spirit places it deep within so they will be fit for service. I am a servant. We are all servants. Not all service the same, and in the womans case she may serve under a male, because she is easily deceived by her emotions. We balance each other out. She brings emotions and a heart, he brings reason and direction.

    Such is the case with your misunderstanding of leadership.In some cases diakonia is translated administration because of the context. In Acts 11:29 it is translated (relief) because the service referred to was giving resources to people suffering from a famine.

    The original and most limited meaning of diakonia has to do with serving food. Although they (diakonia) are servants, deacons aren’t supposed to do all the work. They are to be models of spiritual virtue for everyone else. In that sense they stand alongside the elders. Elders and deacons are not on different spiritual planes. Elders have been given (authority) because they exercise the power of God’s Word in their teaching. But deacons are to be equal to elders in every other respect. Yet one is still accountable for all that takes place. Guess who that is? The Elder and Bishop, not diakonia. So was it with Adam and Eve. Their eyes were not opened until he eat of the fruit. So it is in the church. Someone will be accountable.

    you wrote: “That ye receive her in the Lord, as becometh saints, and that ye assist her in whatsoever business she hath need of you: for she hath been a succourer (prostatis = a woman set over others, a leader; it is the fem derivative of proïstēmi) of many, and of myself also.”

    One is in a leadership position, the other is alongside assisting. She was a Prostatis= meaning helper.

    Next I would like to address the term you continue to use:
    “You are missing what THE SPIRIT is saying TO THE CHURCHED (= THE WOMAN). And the head of THE WOMAN (CHURCH) is THE MAN (CHRIST).”

    Did yopu leave out “listen to what the “spirit” is saying to the churches through the Latter Rain Prophets and Apostles, who are dispensing many “new, sacred truths.”

    • Christine said

      Yes! Christ is the head of the church! And the church is made up of BOTH “male and female”, Rev. Christ is not just the head of the “men” while the “men” are the heads of the “women”. You are not paying attention to what Paul said and HOW he said it. Even “women” receive “the adoption OF SONS” by having Christ (THE SON) formed in them. And Christ is the Head OF EVERY MAN. This is not speaking of “men” after a CARNAL truth. Paul is speaking about THE CHURCH (the BODY of Christ) of which we are ALL members, and to which HE is “the Head”. And just as Christ is the head OF EVERY MAN (which speaks of us “individually”), so is THE MAN (Christ) the head of THE WOMAN (the church). And yet still… GOD IS THE HEAD OF CHRIST! That is “the order” and it has nothing to do with “the flesh” or anyone’s “genitals”. It is not a progression from “women” to “men” to “Christ” to “God”, so you are missing the point! And you can stop with the misogynistic comments about women being more “easily deceived”. Paul would stop you dead in your tracks. He even says OF HIMSELF: “For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.” (Rom 7:11) He even speaks of “travailing in birth” in order that he (A MALE) could be “delivered of the child”. The Lord himself teaches this to His disciples in John, Reverend. Are you not familiar with this? When Paul speak of Adam being “first formed, then Eve” and Adam not being deceived, but Eve being deceived he is using “Adam and Eve” AS A FIGURE OF CHRIST AND THE CHURCH (which is did on more than one occasion). So again, you miss the point! We are to hear what THE SPIRIT is saying UNTO THE CHURCHES! None of this is “new”. Do you need more scripture?

  56. john kaniecki said

    Patrick,

    Hi hope you are well. That is how I understand 1 Timothy and Titus as well. I have heard the counter claim also that Phebe was a deaconess.

    Let’s look at other evidence. All of Jesus’ apostles were men. The Levitcul preisthood consisted only of men. So there is Biiblical precedent that men and woman have different positions. The Phebe argument can be explained by a careful understanding of the Greek language.

    Unfortunately people do not come to the Word of God in all humility. They instead come with something they had in mind. In likewise manner Puritans have justified genocide of Native Americans and so called ‘christians’ have enslaved African Americans in brutal, oppressive fashion.

    Christine please look carefully at the language used in 1 Timothy 3 and Titus 1. Please show me where in those texts you see women being able to hold the position of elder, overseer, bishop, etc.

    Love,

    John Kaniecki

    • Christine said

      John, all of Jesus’ disciples were Jews as well. Why? And what other reason could there be for those who held “the Priesthood” to be “men” besides God trying to say that “only men” can lead the church?

      That which is seen is meant to reveal to us that which is not seen, right? So Paul “used” those things that “are seen” to teach us about those things that “are not seen”, right? Paul was able (through revelation) to see through those “types” and “shadows” and unravel them in order to see their “spiritual” significance, right? He even speak of Adam being “a figure of Him who was to come”, right? And that would make Eve “a figure of the church”, no? (as Paul “used” the husband/wife relationship to teach us about the relationship between Christ and the church. No?)

      These allegories can be found all throughout the OT. Sarah and Hagar = TWO CONVENANTS, right? Israel’s bondage in Egypt? Their journey through the wilderness in order to reach the promised land, No? Joshua also a figure of Christ? Even as was Abel, no? Some are clearly explained and some not. Many are more easily seen and understood and some are not. Paul clearly identified Adam as a figure of Christ and most can see Abel and a figure of Christ, as well. And even Joshua. But what of Cain and Seth? They are also “figures”. Not ‘everything’ is “spelled out” for us, which is why we are told to “study” to show ourselves approved, right? And are we not admonished to be “comparing spriitual things with spirtual”? And doesn’t Paul say that we look not upon that which IS SEEN but that which is NOT SEEN?

      And Seth (who was given “instead of Abel” who was murdered by his brother, he being a figure of Christ) is also a figure of the church. Paul speaks of our praying “in Christ’s stead”.

      The OT speaks of “women” and “children and even “babes” being given to “rule over” God’s people? Is that to be taken literally? Who are “babes”? What does Paul say about “babes” and “children”…. and even “women”?

      They are spirutally equivalent! And there is a difference between “a child” (still in bondage, under the law) and “a son” (having Christ formed in you.)

      Jesus was “made of a woman, made under the law”… sent to redeem them from under the law, right? But the NEW Covenant was not in effect until the death of the testator, right?

      Blessings,
      Christine

    • Hi John.

      It all centers around your question, which is all i’m pointing out also. You stated: “Please show me where in those texts you see women being able to hold the position of elder, overseer, bishop, etc.” There is none.

      This is what I want to see also. She is saying in Christ a woman can. But in Christ Paul wrote that woman should not have authority over men, to teach (a leadership position) or Pastor. These teaching come from Latter rain and Joels false army (false teaching), where a so called prophet can proclaim a thing, and it holds more weight than the word of God. To this group of heretics the spirit is all the matters. If a person has a vision or receives a so called word, it holds more weight than the word of God, and no one should question it. Ah! Never mind we a told to try the “spirit.” They have dispensed with the elder whose function was to judge the words,gifts and actions of the body of Christ to see if it was inline God’s teaching. The aspostles daily checked themselves to ensure they were moving in accordance with the word of God, and it was Spirit that moved them to do this.

      However this group proclaims “Are you having difficulty discerning or receiving this “new revelation”? Then perhaps you have been interpreting your Bible in the “old way” — comparing Scripture with Scripture, studying diligently to account for every jot and tittle and being careful to rightly divide the Word of truth. If this describes you, then you belong to the “Old Generation” which will not enter in to “possess the land” in the Latter Rain Revival. You may even be a member of a denominational church with its dogmatic confession of faith and statement of doctrine. These legalistic forms will be relics of the past in the up and coming “Postdenominational Church.” Paul Cain advises that you “dump all that carnal stuff” (doctrine) and listen to what the “spirit” is saying to the churches through the Latter Rain Prophets and Apostles, who are dispensing many “new, sacred truths.”

      But the word and the Spirit work together. They will not fight against each other. There is no Spirit only, without the word, God gave both to guide us and they work together. If the words written by Paul were given by the Holy Ghost, they are still of use today, in an age where we fly planes and ride trains. God is the same yesterday, today and tommorrow.

  57. Earlier you wrote: “Nor do you seem to understand that YOU are part of “the woman” of which Christ (“the man”) is THE HEAD.”

    Yes I am apart of the Church. And!!!!! Yes Christ is the head of the Church (the woman-His bride). I understand this. Do you understand we are both under Christ? And do you understand the Bible tells us man is over woman? If you do than you should also understand your role within the body. God gave instructions through Paul, you can’t hold a position over man. Both being in Christ does not justifty changing the inspired word of God (by the Holy Spirit) to fit your needs.

    • Christine said

      Yes, I understand that we are both under Christ. However, that does not mean that “you” STAND BETWEEN “me” AND CHRIST! The bible does not tell us that “men” are over “women”. That is a lie!! A lie built on the egos of men and a complete misunderstanding of the truth! Even when Paul speaks of a “wife” submitting to HER OWN “husband” (not “men” in general) he says THIS IS THE MYSTERY!!! BUT I SPEAK OF CHRIST AND THE CHURCH!! We are to submit TO EACH OTHER! Paul “used” the HUSBAND/WIFE (man/woman) RELATIONSHIP to teach spritual truths about CHRIST AND THE CHURCH. And in “that” relationship, there is only ONE MAN (Christ) and ONE WOMAN (the whole church, regardess of gender). And, while it is true that not all hold the same office or receive the same gifts, it is GOD who places us in the body as He sees fit to place us and it is notbased on gender! We are to know no man according to the flesh!!

      Men do not stand between “women” and “Christ” and that is exactly what you are claiming!! Christ is the Head of EVERY MAN!! We are ALL (regarless of gender) SONS OF GOD!! And it is CHRIST (MAN/SON) who is “teaching” through us if the word of God is coming “out of us” AND NOT “unto us only”? What do you think the point of that question was?

      Paul knew the difference between A CHILD (the SPIRITUAL equivalent of “a babe” who is YET CARNAL and “a woman” WHO NEEDS TO BE “DELEIVERED OF THE CHILD”) AND A SON (one who has received THE ADOPTION OF SONS by having CHRIST FORMED IN THEM). He even gave himself as an example!! He said he “travailed in birth again” as he waited for CHRIST “to be formed” IN THEM who called “my little CHILDREN”. He speaks of when he was “a child” and when he “became a man”. He tells us that “the heir AS LONG AS HE IS A CHILD, differs nothing from A SERVANT” (as he is NOT “A SON”). Why do you think these things are written if these one or two small passages of scripture are not meant to be understood in light of THE WHOLE of scripture? Why do you think that Jesus compared his disciples to “a woman” whose hour has come “to be delivered of the child” whose sorrow would turn to joy that A MAN is born into the world? Jer 30 speaks of the same thing: “Ask ye now, and see whether a man doth travail with child? wherefore do I see every man with his hands on his loins, as a woman in travail, and all faces are turned into paleness?

      These things (and more) are all written for nothing? You are certainly free to think so and dismiss them by placing them in that “over-spiritualization” box that makes that job so easy, but that won’t change the Truth!! So you might want to at least consider the possiblilty that it is you who is hanging onto an interpretation of scripture (that even contradicts other things written by the same author elsewhere in the scriptures) because it “fits YOUR needs” because you are “a man”. Perhaps you might want to consider the possibility that is your ego (and the egos of the many “men” who came before you) that keeps you from actually studying it out by “comparing spritual things with spiritual” in order to “rightly divide” the word of Truth (as we are told to)!! At least acknowledging the truth, that: “the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, ,u>because they are spiritually discerned.” (1 Cor 2:14)

      And if you have ever read any of the comments made about “women” by the early “church fathers” you might understand why and how this LIE got perpetuated in the first place and why it has been left fairly unchallenged (in a church RUN BY “men”) for as long as it has. But even a lie is still a lie, no matter how many believe it or for how long.

  58. john kaniecki said

    Christine,

    Hi hope you are well.

    Let’s look at another scripture, Ephesians 5:22-24 “Wives submit yourselves unto your owns husbands, as unto the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the church: and he is the saviour of the body.Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.”

    Now let’s look at God’s creation. Woman and men have different roles. Woman give birth men don’t.

    All the apstotles were Jews as the Jewish nation was the one that would produce Abraham’s seed the Christ.

    Regarding your types and figures I would tell you the Word of God is rich in them. Psalm 119:18 “Open thou mine eyes, that I may behold wondrous things out of my law.” It is not that I am arguing against types, symbolism, etc. I am objecting to your conclusions. Cain would be more a figure of the world and certainly not Christ. Or perhaps Cain would be a figure for the sinner and the chance of repentence.

    However you are trying to see types in the Word of God and ignoring the plain and obvious teaching. Once again I direct you back to scripture.

    Please answer my initial question. “Christine please look carefully at the language used in 1 Timothy 3 and Titus 1. Please show me where in those texts you see women being able to hold the position of elder, overseer, bishop, etc.”

    We can see all sorts of type but they will not conflict with the Word of God. Plain obvious statements should be regarded as they are.

    Love,

    John Kaniecki

    • Christine said

      Hi John,

      I addressed the passage in Eph in my earlier comment. How does Paul end that? Does he not tell us clearly that he is speaking of Christ and the church (by “using” the husband/wife relationship)? Where do you think he got this, if ot from the creation order and “Adam and Eve”? Adam was a figure of CHRIST and Eve THE CHURCH. As such, men do not fall under ADAM, they fall under EVE (the woman, who is “saved IN CHILDBEARING”.) Paul even says this in 1 Tim 2:15. Why? And why does no one ask why? Or even take note of the fact that Paul says “she” (Eve) shall be saved in childbearing if “they” continue in faith?

      As far as figures and types, I’m not sure what conclusion you are objecting to? I said Cain was a figure, but I never said of what. And I do not believe he is a figure of Christ. He is a figure of the first/natural/carnal man. While Abel is a figure of Chirst (the second/spiritual man).

      You can certainly go with “the plain and obvious” (I used to myself) but that flies in the face of verses like 1 Cor 2:14 and the fact that it takes more than the ability to read to understand spiritual truths. If that were not so we would not need the Holy Spirit. Paul used Adam and Eve to teach spiritual truths about Christ and the church. Why think that does not apply to that particular passage when it brings it right back to Adam and Eve where that chapter ends with “NOTWITHSTANDING she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.” Are we to believe that “women” get saved by birthing babies?

      Gotta run for now!! Hope you’ll at least consider taking another look at and taking into consideration some of the other passage of scripture that speak about “women” and “children” and “babes” and “travaiing in birth” (even “men”) and how they relate to “the church” and this discussion.

      All blessings in Christ,
      Christine

    • Christine said

      BTW, I am not ignoring the other verses that you asked about specifically. I am just not at home where I can look them up more easily. I will come back to them later.

  59. john kaniecki said

    Patrick,

    Hi hope you are well.

    I looked up those two things and they seemed to be different but similar.

    I had a younger brother tell me he was talking to a coworker who was talking about the five fold ministry. I wonder if he is a part of the Latter Rain?

    Do you have a blog on this out on your site. Perhaps we can discuss it there.

    Love,

    John Kaniecki

    • Hi John. I don’t have a blog. But it is a very dangerous belief John. I know some of them and they insist they are to manifest Christ in the earth now. They believe the Church is Christ incarnate. Strange huh?. I asked one of them if this is so, what will Jesus do when he returns
      since he is of no use.

      If you will study One of the leaders of the Latter Rain, Signs and Wonders movement; Paul Cain and William Branham you will discover that many of the televison ministres call out their names and believe as they do. But it is all heresy. The prophet has the finally word even if it comes against scripture.

      It wasn’t until she continued to mention “intimacy with Jesus the man” a sensual relationship between a man and a woman, that I began to believe she’d bought into the Latter Rain/maiifest Son of God lie.

      The Latter Rain movement was started by false teachers and false prophets with some new and strange doctrines and emotions. Those leading these relgious crusades have always claimed special gifts and new revelations. They have also been quick to condemn anyone who questioned their teachings and/or manifestations. Their claim of spiritual superiority makes everything they teach suspect.

      The Book of James speaks to the Old Testament prophecy of Joel and the Former and Latter Rain. His words are beautiful and show the connection of this Holy Ghost rain or spiritual activity to the Father’s heart. He said, “Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord. Behold, the husbandman waitest for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, until he receive the early and latter rain. Be ye also patient; stablish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord draweth nigh.” (James 5:7-8) To speak of these two seasons of harvest in clear connection to the Lord’s coming would suggest that they are intimately connected. Joel has already proven that Israel as a nation and a people are clearly in the middle of the Latter Rain and that cannot begin until Jesus returns to finish off the Antichrist kingdom and establish His own kingdom

      This might help you to understnd the lie:
      Paul Cain cryptically has taught the Latter Rain teaching of the “Manifest Sons of God.” This teaching simply affirms that in the last days a “new breed” of believers would attain to immortality and conquer the last enemy of death. Latter-Rain prophets look forward to the appearance of an end-time glorification of a remnant church which will become perfected and thus qualify for immortality here upon the earth prior to Christ’s return. In fact, they believe, prior to the Lord’s physical return, Jesus comes again spiritually and invisibly to a corporate body of believers. God’s glory re-inhabits His temple, referring to the endtime new breed of believers. The prophetic movement teachers identify this great endtime company as the ”Man-child” of Revelation 12, which will rule and reign the nations with a rod of iron. This indestructible and immortal company becomes impregnated with the presence of the “Christ” and they will put all things under their feet.

      These Manifested Sons of God, or Man-child Company then according to Cain is the really the “Man-child” of Revelation 12 which will rule the nations with a rod of iron. , they will receive divine gifts, including the ability to change their physical location, to speak in any language, and be able to perform miracles such as divine healing and the raising of the dead. According to proponents of this theology we are not to look for Jesus to come back physically but rather to come to his body corporately and invisibly through the glorification of these manifest sons of God who will be perfected here on earth.

      This man-child company is also the prophetic fulfillment of the is commonly referred to as “Joel’s Army” in Joel 2 and Revelation 9. This army will put all things under its feet as it rides forth as Gods agent of judgment to rid the world of evil by overseeing drastic judgment on all who remains in the ‘old generation’. This latter rain, manifest sons of God, Man-child Company, also goes by other names, such as Dominion Theology and Kingdom Now. Latter Rain teachings include: Progressive Revelation, Revival/Harvest, Joel’s Army, Replacement Theology, Post-Millennial Eschatology, Signs and Wonders, Territorial Warfare, Ecumenism, Restoration of Apostles and Prophets, Jubilee/Feast of Tabernacles, the Post-denominational Church, and Kingdom Now/Dominion Theology.

      According to Wikipedia, Kingdom Now proponents believe that God lost control over the world to Satan when Adam and Eve sinned. Since then, the theology goes, God has been trying to reestablish control over the world by seeking a special group of believers. Through these people — known as “covenant people,” “over comers” or “Joel’s army,” depending on the source — social institutions (including governments and laws) would be brought under God’s authority. These “covenant people” or “over comers” are “little gods” — God’s “extension” in the world to regain authority from the devil. The church, under the leadership of “restored” apostles and prophets, therefore must take over the world and put down all opposition to it before Christ can return. Anyone who rebels against the church, along with other “evildoers,” must convert or be punished. This is alarming to me personally because the only one world church mentioned in the Bible is certainly NOT God’s!

      Now consider the source of the aberrant theology. Branham received his knowledge from Angels not the Holy Spirit and admitted this! Cain has stated that Branham was “The greatest prophet that ever lived in any of my generations or any of the generations of revival I’ve lived through.” (Paul Cain, Selections from the Kansas City Prophets) I have always found Paul Cain’s last name to be particularly intriguing. He called this end time company that he believes will rule the nations with a rod of Iron, the “man-child company”. He believes that Christ will impregnate them and they will put all things under their feet. In scripture, when Eve conceived Cain she said I have gotten a “man-child” with the help of the Lord. These men love double meaning. I believe Paul Cain is taking the “man-child” of revelation who is clearly Jesus Christ and substituting it for the “man-child” of Genesis who is the spirit of Cain. Now the man had relations with his wife Eve, and she conceived and gave birth to Cain, and she said, “I have gotten a man-child with the help of the LORD.” As you will recall Cain, a farmer, commited the first murder by killing his brother Abel, a shepherd, after God rejected Cain’s sacrifice but accepted Abel’s.

      I am left to wonder who this end time man-child company really is. It most certainly is not God’s army. Lucifer the “Morningstar” is still speaking the same words he spoke to Eve all those centuries ago. Ye shall not surely die- Ye shall be like God. There is nothing new under the sun and Satan never changes his tactics. Isaiah 14 vs. 12-14: “How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning? How art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High”.

      • Christine said

        Just reading this…. you say in the beginning:

        It wasn’t until she continued to mention “intimacy with Jesus the man” a sensual relationship between a man and a woman, that I began to believe she’d bought into the Latter Rain/maiifest Son of God lie.

        1. Is the “she” you are referring to me?
        2. If it is, can you please point to the comment that I made that contains the words you have in quotes there – attributed to me?

      • Christine said

        You said:

        In fact, they believe, prior to the Lord’s physical return, Jesus comes again spiritually and invisibly to a corporate body of believers.

        I thought all Christians believed that “the church” is a “corporate body of believers” in whom Christ dwells? You don’t?

    • Manifest Sons of God, Kingdom Now, Latter Rain all come and five fold ministry. They believe the five-fold ministry; apostles and prophets, having complete authority.

  60. John Kaniecki said

    Christine,

    Hi hope you are well.

    I will look forward to your examination of those scriptures. I wonder if which group you identify with? I am a member of the Church of Christ not to be confused with the Mormons or the International Church of Christ.

    Have you every heard of gnosticism? It is not a Biblical word but describes a condition explained by the Bible.

    Keep the faith sister and please look to Jesus and not man!!

    Love,

    John Kaniecki

    • Christine said

      Hi John! I am not currently associated with any religious denomination or group. I no longer sit at the feet of men, but of Christ! That is not to say that Christ does not speak through men, but I believe that He leads us to those whom He would have us submit ourselves to in learning (whether long-term or short-term, though I find that that it almost always ends up being short-term as we seek out and grow in the truth). There are a few people that I have studied with fairly regularly over the last several years, but we “reason together” so that iron can sharpen iron. None of us is sitting in Jesus seat as “teacher”. We are sitting together at His feet, learning from Him, as His spirit leads. Be back…..

  61. Christine said

    John, Going back to 1 Tim 3 and Titus 1… I wonder if you know that the word “man” (ie “if any man”) does not appear in the original manuscripts? The word is “ei tis” and refers to “anyone“. So more accurate reading of 1 Tim 3:1 might be: “If ANYONE desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work”.

    Now, one could argue that because Paul goes on the address a man being the husband of one wife that he is, indeed, limiting this office to men but why should we believe that when he goes on (in verse 13) to say “Even so women” (it doesn’t say “their wives” either, “their” was added by the translators).

    And clearly Phebe (a woman) was introduced by Paul as a “diakonos” (deacon). Again, one can argue over what it means to be a “deacon” and claim the Phebe was only a “servant” and did not hold “the office” of “a deacon”, but would they argue the same of Paul was introducing a man to the church the same way? Especially when Paul does not even stop at calling Phebe a “diakonos”. He goes on to refer to her as a “prostatis” which is of the feminine of “proistēmi” which refers to someone who is a “presides” or who is “set over” others.

    The same goes for Titus. Why assume that only a man can hold a particular office just because Paul says that if he does he must be the husband of one wife? Did that mean that he “must be married” and single men could not hold the office? Or did it mean that if he was married he could only have “one wife” (and not more than one)? And would Paul need to address the same for women?

    Gotta run again, look forward to your thoughts… thanks!
    Christine

    • Christine said

      oppps, before I run… just want to add that in Jesus day and the days of the early church “the place of the woman” was probably seen as “in the kitchen” as isn’t that what Martha was upset about? That Mary was allowed to “sit at Jesus feet” and “hear His words”? And did not the Lord say that she has chosen “that good part, which shall not be taken away from her”?

      What did it mean to “sit at” someone’s feet then? Did not Paul say that he was man who was “brought up in this city at the feet of Gamaliel”?

      Most of the leaders of the earlier church may very well have been “men” as it was the men (at least when it came to the Jews) who were educated in the scriptures. But Paul speaks of several women in the scriptures who he considers “fellow servants” and “co-laborers” with Him in Christ!

      Just some more thought! Thanks!

  62. John Kaniecki said

    Christine,

    Hi hope you are well.

    I did have one semester of Greek but what you are asking is a little beyond me.

    Looking at my interlinear Bible in Titus it says anyone in the same sentence as having a wife. In 1 Timothy 3 I think I understand what you are saying as the first sentence has anyone with no other words or phrases connected with it to make it indicate a man. So to be perfectly fair and honest if we were to isolate those two sentences the one in 1 Timothy would support what your are saying but the one in Titus would not. We have to read the passages in the context of the text.

    My good friend Curtis Stamps who went to be with the Lord had me memorize this statement. “A text without a context is a pretext.”

    Our goal here is to draw as close to the Lord and serve Him is it not? In order to do that we must scrutinize the Word of God.

    Give me your thoughts on my thoughts and please tell me if you are familiar with gnosticism. Also I’d like to discuss the necessity of meeting with believers.

    They say that every journey begins with one step but I prefer to see myself as an eagle and thus that does not apply to me. Maybe your a salmon?

    They say you can’t know a man until you walk in his shoes. But you can’t walk in my shoes. You know why? I walk barefoot.

    A litte bit of a little bit there at the end.

    Love,

    John Kaniecki

  63. Christine said

    John, Thanks for you comments. Paul addresses men and women in both texts. He just does not get to the women in his letter to Titus until Chapter two. Before that he seems to be speaking of those who need to be rebuked, as AI recall, which perhaps was a man. I don’t know. I’d have to go back and reread it, which I will do later when I have more time. But when we get to chapter 2 Paul speaks not only about men and women but about both “the elder” and “the younger” (of both). And when he speaks about the wife being “obedient” it is “to their own husband” not to “men” in general – though I am not saying that we are not to serve one another in Christ out of a love for each other as members of one body. But that goes both ways! :)

    You say that we have to take into consideration the whole word of God and I agree. I have said this myself. I have not isolated a particular verse or passage and made it an idol of sorts. If anything I have done just the opposite and tried to factor into the conversation that which I believe reveals to us who that “woman” is who Paul did “not permit to teach”. And how that “woman” (figured is “Eve” who is a figure of “the church”) is the spiritual equivalent of “a child” or “a babe” (an indication of ones spiritual maturity, not gender). And, clearly, part of the “context” of the passage in 1 Tim 2 is “Adam and Eve” and even Eve’s being “saved in childbearing”!! I see that as HUGELY relevant to the revelation of a spiritual truth. So I hope that you aren’t saying that I have not (or am not even attempting to) “scrutinize” the word, in order to draw closer unto the Lord, the Truth?

    Not sure what you mean by asking me if I see myself as “a salmon”? Am I safe to assume it’s a reference to “swimming upstream”? If so, sure feels like it sometimes!! LOL :)

    As far as gnosticism goes… yes, I am familiar with the term. Do I know what it means? Perhaps, depending upon how deep or detailed an explanation you think I should have in order to really say “yes”? If you are asking me if I “am gnostic”, the answer is no. Neither am I associated with (or even familiar with) any of the other groups or movements mentioned earlier by Rev Patrick (Latter Rain or whatever it was??)

    I think I answered everything, if not let me know what I skipped. I’ll check back later after I figure out what to do for dinner. :)

    All Blessings in Christ!
    Christine

  64. Diane said

    Hi Christine.

    I believe God annoints women to be leaders and teachers,…and I believe some responses from the opposite point of view are completely dismissive of passages in the bible showing women in leadership..ie,

    -presiding over Rom 16:2
    -prophecy to exhort and encourage the entire “Church” 1 Cor 14:3-4
    -desire …especially that you may prophesy 1 Cor 14:1

    I do have a different view of 1 Cor 14:34, that Paul is not addressing “wives” at all, but is responding to a belief that the “law” (the oral talmud)states that a woman’s voice was filthy and not to be heard,… Paul’s responds (pffft)”What! Did the Word of God come originally from you? Or was it you only that it reached.

    Those who believe women leading and teaching are not able to reconcile women covering there heads to prophesy to the entire Church with their belief that Paul is telling them their voices are “shameful”, and not to be heard. – a clear contradiction

    I also believe Paul is addressing issues facing the Ephesian Church specifically, but I have a comment or question about your interpretation of through/in childbearing. You would have to purposefully insert the word “the” because it’s not there, and then presume that Paul went from addressing an actual physical person, people…. switched… and is now talking about men and women when he states “she” and “they”. Inserting “the” is not too problematic and has to be done sometimes in translating from greek to english, but the later
    switch to mean that Paul is speaking of the “Church” when he said “she” and “they” is injecting too much, in my opinion, into the passage.

    I’m still studying this passage and haven’t reached a solid conclusion, but the only explanation (I’m studying 3 explanations)that has made sense and keeps a continuum is the belief that Paul is addressing the false belief about the superiority of women and the meaning of childbirth in this pagan religion, since these are new believers.

    I have to meet with some family friends, but if you’re interested, maybe I could go into more detail at your website. :)

    • Christine said

      Hello Diane. I agree that you have to ignore a lot of what is said elsewehere (including that said by Paul) to maintain the position that women are not allowed to teach or hold any position in the church that can be held by a man. Clearly, as you point out as well, woemn can “prophesy”. You certainly cannot cannot claim that one must be “silent” while they “prophesy”. Some will claim that prophesying is not the same as teaching and/or is not one of the “offices” from which “women” are exclused (deacon, biphop, etc). However, prophesy is for the edification of the church (all of it!) and I’d like to know how one “prophesies” WITHOUT “teaching” or imparting some kind of sritiitual knowledge or truth. And how that would be differnt from what any “Deacon” or “Bishop” would be doing? As far as inserting the word “the” in (I assume??) 1 Tim 2:12, I don’t believe (without going back to re-read all of my comments) that I did that though I may have pointed out, repeatedly, the difference between “the man” and “the woman”, when it comes to Christ and the church. The KJV renders it “a woman” and “the man”. But the point is that both are singular. And given that Paul clearly used the husband/wife relationship to teach us about Christ and the church and he clearly saw Adam as “a figure of him who was to come” I find it stange to think that he would bring up Adam and Eve in this context for any other reason, especially when speaking of Eve being “saved in childbearing”… IF “THEY” continue in faith (right after saying that Adam was first formed, then Eve; Adam was not deceived and Eve was in the transgression). Surely we all know that it is possible for men to be “deceived” as Paul said that HE HIMSELF was deceived. Surely we all know that Adam was in transgression for Rom 5:14 speaks of “Adam’s transgression” (and not very lightly of it either), right?

      And while pagan religions that existed at the time may have had some different ideas/beliefs about women and childbirth, etc, Jesus himself spoke of his disciples (all men) being “as a woman” whose hour would come to be “delivered of the child”. Paul speaks of his own experience of being “a child” and thinking “as a child” and understanding “as a child” before he “became a man”. Paul tells that “a child” IS NOT “a son” and are we not waiting for “the adoption of sons” (Christ in you)? This being what Paul waited for as he “travailed in birth” AGAIN with those who he referred to as “my little CHILDREN” (waiting for Christ to be formed IN THEM, as well)?

      I just see these things connected, especally if we are “comparing spritual things with spirtiual”, “while we look not up those things which are seen but those things which are not seen” and especially in light of the fact that we are to “know no man after the flesh”. That may be seen by some as “overspiritualization” and that’s ok with me. :) There are plenty of other reasons (some of which you bring up yourself) not to believe that Paul is making some sort of universal rule against women speaking, teaching or having authroity in the church. And in order to maintain such a belief you have to pit one verse of scripture against another and even Paul against Paul. And we should all know that if we see a “contradication” somewhere then we are not seeing “something” right. We are misunderstanding one or the other – or maybe even both.

      Thanks for commenting. And we can discuss it more on my blog if you like or you can shoot me an email. My address is on my blog.

      All Blessings in Christ!
      Christine

  65. Diane said

    **correction: this should read

    Those who don’t believe in women leading and teaching are not able to reconcile women covering there heads to prophesy to the entire Church with their belief that Paul is telling them their voices are “shameful”, and not to be heard. – a clear contradiction

  66. Christine wrote: “I agree that you have to ignore a lot of what is said elsewehere (including that said by Paul) to maintain the position that women are not allowed to teach.”

    The above statement shows just who you are and everyone here can now see that you do NOT accept the word of God, and reject the HOLY GHOST, who inspired the Apostle Paul to write those words. You are have been indentify you Jezebel Spirit. I knew it could’nt hide for long.

    1 Timothy 4:1-3 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron; Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth. The Holy Spirit revealed to Paul what the latter times would bring, a raging onslaught of false doctrine that will be empowered by the demonic realm, seducing spirits.

    When seducing spirits are at work, the individuals most often think they are fine, they are having great theological ideas given them, revelations that are coming from the lord, but in fact they are false doctrines and must be tested to see if they are of God, tested against Scripture, that is Scripture that is interpreted using sound hermeneutical skills. Demon spirits entice what appeals to the flesh, they bring forth unsound doctrines that will “feel” good, as emotions can be manipulated and they can be wrong when it comes done to truth especially when truth contradicts feeling as it almost always will. The apostasy many times comes from “good” people who are sincere in what they believe, but they are sincerely in error, and despite their cries of foul when exposed, they are sincerely wrong and must be exposed as such overturning their false doctrines for the truth.

    There are some very distinct characteristics of seducing spirits from Paul’s letter to Timothy. First they are in the faith, they are in the church, they are members in good standing and they are more than members on a role, but they are able to instruct because Paul makes clear that some depart from the faith as a result of their instruction. They may be ministers or deacons or Sunday school teachers, but for some to depart from the faith, these people must and do teach their destructive heresies to perhaps some unsuspecting “fools” in the congregation. Paul makes clear that we are to NOT take what someone says as the truth, by as is by nature for disciples [learners], they study God’s Word to know what it says, and NOT what someone or some group says. 2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. Many “religions” exist and have existed from the beginning, but age doesn’t make them true and far too many in the church world go further than tolerate things, they embrace them into their own belief system because they sound or feel good. False teachers will not let go of their false doctrine because their conscience is seared, they have no desire for the truth. Those who want the truth allow themselves to be taught as well as teach, they are accountable, and they are responsible.
    REPENT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  67. Christine said

    Good Grief Patrick!! I absolutely believe that Paul wrote those words and that they are, indeed, divinely inspired. So you are A LIAR! And what happens to all liars, Patrick? You speak of studying to show oneself approved of God and yet you cannot “rightly divide the word of truth”. You are not even willing to COMPARE SPIRITUAL THINGS WITH SPIRITUAL knowing that the truths of God, spoken through THE SPIRIT, require SPIRITUAL DISCERNMENT. This is why “the natural man” CANNOT know the things of God… they are SPIRITUALLY DISCERNED!! Which pretty much flies in the face of any argument that the truth is “easy to understand” and all ANYONE needs do is read what is written and believe what it “literally” days. THE LETTER KILLS!!

    Paul also said that he knew that when he departed grievous wolves would come in NOT SPARING THE FLOCK, drawing away disciples AFTER THEMTHELVES! You might want to claim that it is the “women’s movement” of “today” that is doing that and disregard the fact that Paul was not talking about a women’s movement in the 20th century but about those men who were among them 2000 years ago, but that will nto change the truth!! And the TRUTH is that to believe what you do means that Paul CONTRADICTS HIMSELF!! You care not about clearing up those CONTRADICTIONS because of your own self-serving belief and/or because of “the traditions of men”.

    You can refuse to accept the SCRIPTURAL EVIDENCE that I gave, including Paul’s own experience in being “delivered of the child” (though IT IS WRITTEN!!) You can even ignore THE WORDS OF THE LORD who spoke about the same things (ALL WRITTEN) and accuse “me” of being the “Jezebel” but you will one day come to see that it is you who needs to repent, Patrick.

    • Christine wrote: “I agree that you have to ignore a lot of what is said elsewehere (including that said by Paul) to maintain the position that women are not allowed to teach.”

      You do NOT accept the word of God, and reject the HOLY GHOST, who inspired the Apostle Paul to write those words. You Jezebel Spirit. REPENT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

      Jesus declares to the Thyatirans that she is not to be tolerated. Jezebel refused to repent of her immorality and her false teaching, and her fate was sealed. The Lord Jesus cast her onto a sick bed, along with those who committed idolatry with her. The end for those who succumb to a Jezebel spirit is always death and destruction, both in the physical and the spiritual sense.

  68. Christine wrote: “I agree that you have to ignore a lot of what is said elsewehere (including that said by Paul) to maintain the position that women are not allowed to teach.”

    False Teacher!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Christine wrote: “You can refuse to accept the SCRIPTURAL EVIDENCE that I gave, including Paul’s own experience in being “delivered of the child” (though IT IS WRITTEN!!)

    “The edvidence I gave you.” That is why it falls on deaf ears. It is not of God and an unbiblical reasoning of the word. 1

    Timothy 4:1-3 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

    When did you write the bible and under whose authority? Paul was inspired. Can you say you were? Your doctrine is of the devil. If you don’t believe Paul’s writing then you may as well go live a life of sin, you’d be better off, for as it stands now you are on borrowed time……… To reject Paul teachings is to reject the Holy Ghost who inspired Paul; you false teacher. You dismiss the word as if it is not the inerrant. Paul claimed inspiration for scripture, it is explicitly inclusive: all scripture is inspired. You are neither Jesus who also relied on scripture, nor Paul. You ignore sound scripture and twist to suit your beliefs, which means you take away from, which makes you a lair. False prophet. REPENT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    • Christine said

      Patrick, why do you deliberately try to misrepresent what I said and then use your twisted version of my words to accuse me of being a “false teacher”? What spirit is that at work in you? I did not ask you to take “my” mord for anything. I gave you SCRIPTURE, asking you to consider more than just those couple of passages that you want to focus on in order to maintain your belief about women not being allowed to teach. To do that, I asked that you consider what Paul (yes, Paul, not me) said elsewhere, as well. And not only Paul, but other prophets and even the Lord Himself, who compared His dsciples (all men) to “a woman” whose hour would come to be “delivered of the child”. That you cannot imagine how that might be relevant I do not know, but your disagreeing with my interpretation of a given passage of scripture in no way proves that I “do not believe” either Paul or the word of God. It only means that disagree with your interpretation of what Paul was inspired to write. And most assuredly do believe that ALL scripture is inspired!! I’ve not dismissed any of it nor have I said that Paul was in error, so why do you accuse me of that which I clearly have not done and then call me to repentance?

    • Christine said

      Let me ask you something… have you ever read Rev 2:20 in the Greek Interlinear? In order to know that it says “your woman, Jezebel” (or “your wife Jezebel”) and not “that woman, Jezebel”?

  69. john kaniecki said

    Patrick,

    Hope you are fine.

    2 Timothy 2:24 “And the servant of the Lord must not strive;but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach; paitent, In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves;if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.”

    We correct people by comparing scripture to scripture and reasoning with them patiently. As if you have perfect doctrine and always had perfect doctrine and never needed instructing.

    Why then do you refer to yourself as reverend? Psalm 111:9 “Holy and reverend is his name.” Reffering to God. So you have taken God’s title.

    Love,

    John Kaniecki

  70. Rev Patrick Williams said

    For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within?
    But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person. 1 Corinthians 5:13

    Paul tells the Corinthian Christians to remove this man from their church. There was to be no more waiting to see if the man changed. By the time Paul heard of the matter this situation would have been happening for some time. It was a serious issue that needed to be dealt with. To allow the man to continue in the church fellowship would have sent the wrong message to everyone. To the man it would be saying that it was OK for him to live in his sin. To the church body it would be saying that sin can be tolerated, it not that bad. To the world it would be saying that Christians are no different than the rest of society and you could live a sinful life and still be a Christian. By removing the person who chooses to live a sinful life the church would be taking a stand for holiness and righteousness in a sinful world. By removing the person who chooses to live a sinful life the church would be saying that sin was harmful and wrong. Removing the man may have seemed harsh but it was the most loving thing the church could done.

    John wrote: We correct people by comparing scripture to scripture and reasoning with them patiently.

    (John this is for those who are not of the household of God)

    “As if you have perfect doctrine and always had perfect doctrine and never needed instructing.”

    I believe the word means what it says. You are defending this statement by someone who claims to be

    “I agree that you have to ignore a lot of what is said elsewehere (including that said by Paul) to maintain the position that women are not allowed to teach.” JEZEBEL SPIRIT AT WORK ………………………………………..denying the written word.

    How else can you say you’re not when she made the statement Freely? Is it false or not? Does she know what she’s doing or not? Does she say she is of the household of God or not? Is there anything else, or is it a lie?

    There can be unity in diversity and diversity in unity. Although differences of beliefs, doctrine, interpretation, and opinion may be held and expressed among believers, they should be expressed in love and fellowship with those who may differ.This is the essence of true Biblical Christianity, based upon the freedom that is in Christ, as it was instituted in the very beginning. But God’s word can never be dismissed. Is this what the apostle wrote in the holy word of God inspired by the Holy Spirit? Yes or No? If not, I will go somewhere and sit down! Or it it just another piece of paper, one that can simply be ignored?

    I do not pretend to be a easy person to get along with. I will tell the truth to if it costs me my life, and in the coming years this may very well happen, because I will proclaim Him Lord at all times. And therein lies the problem with many, they are quick to take into account other peoples feelings, when all that matters is the Jesus the word and the truth.
    “if any man comes preaching any other doctrine, let him be _________” You can finish this.

    I could care less about the term Reverend or minister. I prefer Child of the king. And as a child of the King we must all speak truth, even when we don’t want to. REPENT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    • Christine said

      Partick,

      1. Concerning the man Paul said to cast out, what does Paul say in his next letter the Corinthians? Did he not tell them to forgive that man and restore, lest he be overcome with sorrow (and them as well)?(Ref 2 Cor 2:1-10)

      2. Concerning your quote of me where I said “I agree that you have to ignore a lot of what is said elsewehere (including that said by Paul) to maintain the position that women are not allowed to teach.”, to which you reply “JEZEBEL SPIRIT AT WORK…… denying the written word”, you do realize that I did NOT say that “we have to ignore Paul” in order to maintain my position, but only in order to maintain yours, right? That I am NOT advocating that anyone “ignore Paul”? So perhaps it is you who is misreading and misunderstanding what I actually said? Why would I QUOTE Paul and then claim that we need to IGNORE him?

      3. I have said several times already – making myself perfectly clear – that I believe what Paul said (just not your interpretation of what Paul said) and I believe that the scriptures are the inspired word of God. And I have never said anything contrary to that.

      4. Paul did not say to “curse” those who preach another gospel but to let them “be accursed”. There is a difference.

      5. You may prefer to be “a CHILD”, but I am striving for “the adoption OF SONS”. Paul said: “the heir as long as he is a child, differs nothing from a servant, thou he be lord of all”. It is “the children” who are “tossed to and fro”, Patrick. That is the whole point. We have to be “delivered of the child” and that does not happen until Christ is formed in us (Christ in you, the hope of glory) and one is not “able to teach” UNTIL they are no longer “in need of one to teach them” (= A CHILD).

      Pray on it!!

  71. Diane said

    It is obvious to me that Christine clearly is saying that a person has to ignore scripture passages to hold a belief that God doesn’t call women to lead and teach.

    Ignoring scripture presented to you or having an attitude that you have the right understanding of only part of a complicated passage, but are condemning other believers based on your partial understanding, is not rightly dividing the Word. I believe God’s grace is upon those willing to discuss the hard passages, instead of “pretending” you understand.

    On the topic of usurping yourself over other believers… that is a problem for an individual referring to himself as “reverened”, while showing irreverence for other Christians.

    The “wine” and “cloak” issue… do we say “that is God’s command for ALL Christians” ” for ALL time”? No. Stop pretending that you can’t discern between the two. Paul is clearly the one talking and giving “his” opinion and speaking of “his” need.

  72. Rev Patrick Williams said

    The problem is there are those who want to ignore what Paul says all together, then use word studies to justify their belief. The word of clear. There is no misunderstanding. But merely a person attempting to prove their point of saying “yes women should pastor, which is a position of authority, leadership within the body.
    That has been the problem since God said “Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire [shall be] to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.”

    “Thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.” The woman had taken the lead in the transgression. In the fallen state, she is to be subject to the will of her husband. “Desire” does not refer to sexual desire in particular. Only a spiritual resurrection will restore her to her true place, as the help for man.

    Was she restored, Yes! In Christ she meets all requirements. Yet she is the weaker vessel and subject to feelings the come be easily manipulated, so she must be watched over, which is what Adam was suppose to do. Therefore Paul said ” I suffer Not a woman to teach or unsurp authority. I did’nt say this, yet you argue with the word to please your own desire to be equal. The written word is what it is, and not subject to your mine, or their interpretation. A lie is a lie,and the truth is truth. Scripture meaning is what the author intended it to be when it was written. Did it change because 2000 years went by? I think not!

    What should be asked is what does the passage “I suffer not a woman to teach mean and how do I apply it to my life. Not “What does it mean to me?” This is correct biblical interruption. Paul’s letter serve as authoritative substitute for the personal presence of the author and should therefore be taken as if he where present when read.
    What was the principle? “Submit to one another out of reverence to Christ.” Ehp.5.
    Why? As being the weaker vessel and understanding your role.
    If the submission is not willful is it in Christ or not? You answer this? I think you know!

    We evaluate scripture on the basis of whether or not we we have enough evidence that is the intended meaning that the Holy Spirit has placed in the passage. As it is read, there is enough evidence to suggest the verse means what it says, “I suffer not a woman to teach.”

    • Christine said

      Patrick, that woman was EVE, who is a figure of THE CHURCH. And “her husband” (to whom her desire should be and who should rule over her) IS CHRIST! You are completely missing the bigger picture and ignoring the fact that even Paul used Adam and Eve (husband and wife) as a figure of Christ and the church? Why? Because that is why it is written!! Do you not understand that if Adam is a figure of CHRIST and Eve THE CHURCH that you are a part of “the woman” (the BRIDE) and not Christ (until you are joined together as ONE FLESH?

      This has never changed, Patrick. And if you do a little bit of study you will see that there were women Bishops in the early church and there were lots of things taught and believed in the early church that eventually gave way to “the doctrines of men”.

      You are part of EVE, Patrick! You need to be “delivered of the child” just as all of Jesus’ other disciples had to be. You are “as a woman” and if you have not yet been delivered of the child then why are you not listening to Paul who said “I suffer not A WOMAN to teach”?

  73. Diane said

    Patrick,

    our “interpretation” of what God meant for Eve at the “fall” is completely opposite, and would take this thread completely off topic. To discuss this it would also take honesty and respect shown from those participating.

    You have also avoided
    addressing your misrepresentation of Christine’s comment to me, and it is you that has failed in giving a Christ like witness

    addressing your own irrational behavior (name calling), and avoided an apology for this behavior

    you have avoided actually acknowledging that scripture that reveals God using women to lead and teach has been presented to you

    ************
    Contradictions that have been presented but avoided are

    Prophesy- to declare the Will and Word of God (men will be taught when this occurs)

    (I’ve mentioned this in another thread)
    The Promise of the Father- “Your sons and daughters shall prophesy” Joel 2:28

    Jesus’ promise that He is now sending the Promise of the Father
    “Behold I send the Promise of My Father upon you; tarry in the city of Jerusalem until you are endued with power from on high Luke 24:49

    Phebe presided over and was a deacon of the church of Cenchrea
    Rom 16 (including the other women listed in this chapter)

    women prophesying to the “entire” Church 1 Cor 11

    • You asked: Phebe presided over and was a deacon of the church of Cenchrea
      Rom 16 (including the other women listed in this chapter)

      A deacon not a, Elder, Pastor, Bishop as used to refer to leadership office but sub offices? A deacon servant, waiter. Yes! Leadership, no!

      Can she be the husband of one wife. Well in todays world she probably can, to millions of lost souls.

      You asked: (I’ve mentioned this in another thread)
      The Promise of the Father- “Your sons and daughters shall prophesy” Joel 2:28

      These are the gifts of the spirit. Many woman have these gifts, yet many also mistake the gift as a calling to leadership.

      You wrote: You have also avoided
      addressing your misrepresentation of Christine’s comment to me, and it is you that has failed in giving a Christ like witness

      Christine wrote: “I agree that you have to ignore a lot of what is said elsewehere (including that said by Paul) to maintain the position that women are not allowed to teach.”

      Heresy is heresy. If I sugar coat it then I am guilty of not warning those who by pass the cross for another gospel. Should I say “Oh, I love you. Thats wrong and okay, you’re right,” Beloved that the worldview of Christianity. I other words don’t say anything. Just let them go on by. That is the definition of hate. True love warns those who are in error. God’s people have alot to answer for accepting the worldview.

      To ignore means what to you? To dismiss. To not trust in maybe? Correct me. I see black and white, men a logical, we see what we see. I see this (including that said by Paul)as a refusal to adhere to. I’m I wrong?
      Anyone who does not accept the word of God, but goes about to prove their point that woman are equal in leadership of the body of Christ, knowing full well that is not true is what. The bible uses the term Spiritual Adultery.

      Our love for people should be so great that we want to warn them, reprove and rebuke them for their sins, even risking their rejection.

      “Have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them.”
      Ephesians 5:11

      “If the world hates you, you know that it hated Me before it hated you. If you were of the world, the world would love its own. Yet because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you.”
      John 15:18-19

      “You adulterous people, don’t you know that friendship with the world is hatred toward God? Anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God.”
      James 4:4

  74. Biblical meaning is determined by context, and context determines word meaning.

    What is meaning? The term meaning only applies as a reader reacts with a text- that is both reader and text produce meaning.

    Authoririal intention is where the reader determines the meaning and is known as reader response.

    In biblical interpretation the reader never controls the meaning; the author controls the menaing. This conclusion leads us to one of the most basic principles; we do not create meaning. Rather, we seek to discover meaning that has been placed there by the author, the Holy Spirit.

    The Bible is a spiritual book dealing with spiritual issues. We do not have to spiritualize it with our fertile imaginations.
    When we attempt to find hidden, deeper meaning , “superspiritual” meaning, we usually find ourselves moving into an area of reader response where we are the ones determining the meaning rather than the text, inspired by God.In other words we become guilty of substituting our words for God’s words.

    This is well known amongst the leaders in Paul’s day. Gnostics. They found secret meaning in the word Like the man-child and Eve, which you continually use.

    Spiriualizing is not based on the text or the Spirit of God.It is a product of imagination. The question is not whether we will seek literal meaning or spiritual meaning; the question is whether we will seek liteary meaning intended by the author and inspired by the Spirit or the meaning created in our own fanicful imagination.

    You use alot of Allegory: This has become very popular amongst many new age Churches and Third Wave teachers who have been so-called receiving divine revelation. Today allegories are often based; once again, on imagination. Once readers lose control they often drift into over-spiritizing the text through, again, their imagination.

    Christian interpreters should realize when it comes to biblical interretation, having the Holy Spirit does not mean having the
    Holy Spirit is all you need. What do I mean?

    The Spirit expects us to use our minds, proper interretive methods and good study helps to interupt the Bible accurately.

    The Spirit does not create new meaning or provide new information.

    The Spirit does not change the Bible to suit our purposes or match or circumstances. The Spirit brings the meaning of the Bible to bear on the reader. And if resisted, the Spirit will chasten those who oppose.

    • Christine said

      Patrick, No prophesy of scripture is IT’S OWN INTERPRETATION. That is why we are supposed to be “comparing spiritual things with spiritual” in order to “rightly divide the word of truth” and why every truth must be established “by two or three witnesses. And while you can attempt to use those passage to support each other in a literal interpretation, you still have to “explain away” the fact that understanding those passages as you do causes Paul to contradict himself, as you admit that women “can prophesy” yet believe that Paul tells us that women are to be “silent… for it is a shame for women to speak in the church”. Where is she supposed to prophesy? In the parking lot? And so long as “no men” are present?

      If your literal interpretation causes Paul to contradict even himself, then don’t you think that might warrant a different interpretation – one that is able to be reconciled with the whole word of God and isn’t let standing as a contradiction wherein one verse of scripture ends up being pitted against another verse of scriptures as if one can “trump” the other?

    • Christine said

      And what do you have against “allegories” when Paul identifies some himself and Jesus spoke “in parables”?

  75. Diane said

    goodness …..

    ***correction again
    this should read
    Rom 16 (the other women listed in this chapter obviously declared the word of God to men)

  76. My father once told me that sins often say their name. For example, a liar is more likely to call someone else a liar. A false teacher or false prophet is more likely to cry out “False Teacher”. An unfaithful man is more likely to cry out, “Whores, adulterers…”

    And I believe that is true and most of our shared experience would illustrate this clearly. We saw Jimmy Swaggart rip Jim Bakker and Marvin Gorman. But then you see Gorman hiring a private detective to track Swaggart down to a prostitute.

    And yet Jesus and John the Baptist and most prophets also cried out, “Hypocrites, white washed sepulchres, etc.”. It seems most of the time they took a stand against a sin, such as saying to Herod, “It is unlawful for your to have your brother’s wife.” But, they cried out against hypocrites without being hypocrites.

    I suppose if we took a faithful stand against ALL sin in some of our churches, people would walk out in a huff, including many pastors. But, then sometimes I wonder if there is a rapture to come whether anyone would notice these days, and whether many of us who claim the title of “Christian” have really surrendered all to Christ.

    People go through convoluted twistings of scripture packing in the proof-texts and artificial histories and claims that various words had different meanings in the original Greek or Hebrew, and then they pound the gavel declaring, “Thus saith the Lord, so-and-so is a false teacher”.

    So, Joseph Smith of the Mormons would call me a false teacher. Should I quake in my boots? Should I be proud and take it as an honor? Should I surrender to the Lordship of Jesus and try to keep my heart from being influenced by the minions of Satan? Is that pride and refusing accountability? Should I consider all religions equally? Should I seek God’s voice? Do His sheep know His voice?
    Should we just take delight in knowing that so many of us who feel we hear His voice hear the same thing? Is that proof? Or do those who hear a different voice also hear the same things sometimes thinking that is the voice of God?

    The song, “I Surrender All”, seems to draw a line in the sand. Sing it, and you’re either

    1) lying to God as Ananias and Sapphira did, and you’re living on borrowed time, or

    2) you belong to Christ and you’re not holding anything back.

    In our churches do we call to people to give up sin and follow Christ? All sin? Or only sins we don’t love, cherish and defend? Do we care nothing about how God feels but merely use God’s word to get people to make us happy?

    When we cry out for funds, for tithes, for offerings, do we teach people to give for the right reason? For Biblical reasons? Or do we manipulate them emotionally perhaps abusing them, perhaps weighing them down with false guilt? Or do we hold them back from feeling true guilt defending the sin, justifying or coddling the sin so that people will like us? Is it all about us or all about Jesus?

    Can you imagine anyone ever saying, “Don’t you DARE put any money in the offering plate until you know for a fact your heart is right with God”?

    Can you imagine anyone being afraid to sing, “All to Jesus I Surrender” without any fear of having a percentage of the congregation dropping dead on the spot? Is there any sense we are living on borrowed time when we lie to God?

    When two marriages are broken by an affair, does the adulterous couple ever find it hard to locate a church that will pander to their lies and harlotry? Is there any difficulty finding a pastor who will encourage them to get a divorce and remarry and offer to perform the ceremony? Is there any shortage of pastors who will call Jesus Christ a liar before their whole congregation by pronouncing “Holy Matrimony” that which Jesus explicitly called “Adultery”?

    Have you ever done that? Often? Or did you have the grace of God, the integrity, and the backbone to uphold the honor of Jesus faithfully?

    Do you quake in your boots to say anything against a sin that some cherished rich person in your church lives in? Would you warn the adulterer of the danger of hellfire and brimstone? Would you warn the swindler and liar who thinks they are merely doing “good business”? Would you speak about the tithe and giving faithfully so that people understand it is something real Christians do while telling them to keep their offerings if they intend to offer them from an insincere and sinful heart without repenting and surrendering to Christ?

    Where do you stand? Are you in it for the money? For the pride? For the accolades? For the social standing? For the luxury? Or are you surrendered to Christ fully?

    Preachers of all types who are faithful to God are to be cherished and honored. It makes no difference whether they are apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors, or teachers or just preachers with no titles at all. It’s not how fierce they snarl their noses as they say, “Brood of vipers, you false teachers”. What matters is whether they are telling the truth or whether they are being mere minions of the accuser of the brethren, Satan himself.

    What does God say? That’s what matters.

    Right or wrong, we will be accused by Satan. Satan will seek to drag our soul down to hell. But, turn your eyes upon Jesus and stay true to God and His Word regardless!

    • Christine said

      Your father might have been on to something there.

      Sound much like Shakepeare (in Hamlet): “The lady doth protest too much, methinks.”

      Or Jean-Jacques Rousseau, who said: “Insults are the arguments employed by those who are in the wrong.”

      Insults never win arguments, I think we simply resort to them when we’ve have no good arguments left.

      Nothing like calling someone else to repentance while you’re in the process of berating them.

      • You mean like, “Repent and give up your sin of being so arrogant and full of pride as to disagree with my superiorly humble and right opinion”?

        Isn’t it sickening when someone pounds the pulpit and calls you names for no other reason than that he cannot accept the fact that he has failed to prove his point?

        And isn’t it irritating to death when someone has not the integrity to be reasonable and admit to when a point has been well proven?

        I wonder how many of us all have asked ourselves whether we are like one or the other or both sometimes? I wonder if we don’t ask ourselves that question whether we are the ones in greatest danger of being both at the same time.

        I’m not sure I like where this line of reason is taking me :-)

  77. Diane said

    My responses are bolded..

    Rev Patrick Williams said
    September 20, 2010 at 6:08 pm
    You asked: Phebe presided over and was a deacon of the church of Cenchrea
    Rom 16 (including the other women listed in this chapter)

    A deacon not a, Elder, Pastor, Bishop as used to refer to leadership office but sub offices? A deacon servant, waiter. Yes! Leadership, no!

    Pheobe is a presider over the Church of Cenchrea. You’re right, it is what it is.

    You asked: (I’ve mentioned this in another thread)
    The Promise of the Father- “Your sons and daughters shall prophesy” Joel 2:28

    These are the gifts of the spirit. Many woman have these gifts, yet many also mistake the gift as a calling to leadership.

    When a woman is prophesying to the entire Church, men will be taught. This truth is a contradiction to “your” belief that women are not to teach men. You are failing to reconcile God’s women prophesying and men being taught as a result and your belief that ONLY the scriptures that support your personal opinions should be observed.

    You wrote: You have also avoided
    addressing your misrepresentation of Christine’s comment to me, and it is you that has failed in giving a Christ like witness

    Christine wrote: “I agree that you have to ignore a lot of what is said elsewehere (including that said by Paul) to maintain the position that women are not allowed to teach.”

    This has been explained several times,… I will give you the benefit of a doubt and suppose that you are still misunderstanding her.

    She is clearly stating “you” (people who oppose women teaching) are ignoring parts of scripture showing women prophesying (men being taught).

    • Daniel said

      Wrong. Show us where the bible says Phoebe was president over a church? She was what has been translated “deaconess”…a helper. The bible does not contradict itself.
      JOEL 2:28…yes, women will prophesy. Yet no one has ever prophesied without being a prophet.
      To prophesy is to bring a message from God that has been given directly to that person.
      If you want to reject the scriptures, including 1 Timothy 2:11-15, then that is your choice.
      I will rather rightly divide and stand on the word of God, not try to find ways to avoid and nullify the scripture to appease an agenda now sought after by the hordes that have fallen away from the truth they once held steadfast.

      • Diane said

        it is “deacon” not deaconness

        prostatis is the fem form for “preside” to rule over.

        Either answer the question I asked you weeks ago or simply address questions to others.

        • Daniel said

          I do not remember the question…refresh my memory.
          What it all comes down to regardless is if you want to be an apostate or if you want to be scripturally correct and standing on the word of God without having to try to juggle other scriptures in an attempt to nullify biblical commands you do not agree with.
          There is a massive falling away going on. Women preachers have corrupted the foundations of the church and are bringing an all together different spirit with them. It is attached to the feminist movement and is in direct conflict with the word of God. If that is the side you desire to be on, that is your choice.

  78. She is clearly stating “you” (people who oppose women teaching) are ignoring parts of scripture showing women prophesying (men being taught).

    Prophesying (men being taught). Or prophesying,(men and women)edifying, it is a spiritual gift as stated by Paul. But still does not mean in a pastoral role of bishop, elder or teahcer. As gifts Paul says we should desire (both male and female) this gift to build upon the body of Christ. I agree women have spiritual gift to contribute to the body, but still leadership over men is not one of them. Speaking to edify sure. They may use their gift in the body of Christ.

    “But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort.” This is the role of all saints not just man only. They speak to men and women, I competely agree.

    That is the best and most eligible gift which will edify the church. No gift is to be despised, but the best gifts are to be preferred.

  79. Daniel said

    No one ever prophesied without being a prophet. A prophet is given a message by God, a divinely inspired message given to them directly. A prophet is not a teacher or preacher.
    A prophet, prophesies. That is why the bible is perfect in its instruction and commands.
    A woman is not to teach or preach to men in the church. If she is a prophet, then she will be bringing a message divinely given her by God, and as with all prophets, it must be tested to see if it is in fact from God and if it comes to pass. Now the bible is divinely inspired and given to mankind. To teach and preach put of it to men, by the mouth of a woman in the church is forbidden. A prophet has an original message given by God for that person to tell.

  80. Diane said

    Prophesying (men being taught). Or prophesying,(men and women)edifying

    Prophesying is preaching. Yes, men will be taught, encouraged, comforted and convicted when women prophesy to the entire Church.

    I’m not confusing leading and preaching. Pheobe was presider of the Cenchrea Church.

  81. Daniel said

    JOEL 2:28…yes, women will prophesy. Yet no one has ever prophesied without being a prophet.
    To prophesy is to bring a message from God that has been given directly to that person.
    If you want to reject the scriptures, including 1 Timothy 2:11-15, then that is your choice.
    I will rather rightly divide and stand on the word of God, not try to find ways to avoid and nullify the scripture to appease an agenda now sought after by the hordes that have fallen away from the truth they once held steadfast.

  82. Diane said

    Daniel:

    Diane said
    August 16, 2010 at 6:56 pm
    Daniel

    there is a lot “in the confines of scripture” that you only at best on this side of heaven will partly understand. Unless you are accusing God Himself of “apostate” acts because His Righteous Works contradict the silencing of women….

    How is it that God Himself “chose”, for His Chosen People,…”annointed” and “raised” up Deborah, Huldah, and the “great host of women”(Psalm 68:11 not an obscure few)…

    Yes, please explain the language in the clear passage you use to silence women that God has annointed to “prophesy” “speak under the annointing of the Holy Spirit”, that…. “she shall be saved in childbearing”

    a)born again women don’t “give birth to Jesus”
    b)ungodly and godly women are saved, experience pain and die in childbearing

    ***************************

    Your name calling is a waste of time with God..

    also give a thorough explanation of “authenteo” and how anything like that could be applied to “daughters prophesying from the Spirit of God”

  83. Christine said

    Patrick, I am sure you must be familiar with Rev 2 where Jesus speaks against those who hold the doctrines of Balaam and the doctrine of the Nicolaitans….

    Rev 2:12-17 And to the angel of the church in Pergamos write; These things saith he which hath the sharp sword with two edges; I know thy works, and where thou dwellest, even where Satan’s seat is: and thou holdest fast my name, and hast not denied my faith, even in those days wherein Antipas was my faithful martyr, who was slain among you, where Satan dwelleth. But I have a few things against thee, because thou hast there them that hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balac to cast a stumblingblock before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed unto idols, and to commit fornication. So hast thou also them that hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitans, which thing I hate. Repent; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth. He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.

    What is “the doctrine of Balaam” and “the doctrine of the Nicolaitans”? And how might it be relevant to this particular topic?

  84. Daniel said

    Reject all the scriptures you want…turn a prophet into nothing more then a preacher. Show one person who prophesied in the bible that was not a prophet. Show me one prophet that did not get direct messages from God? Reject instructions in the word. Reject the scriptures you despise and in fact hate. You do not hate me or those that stand on the word of God and who will not reject or compromise the word, your problem is with the author of the word. You can twist and mangle and distort any scriptures you desire in order to justify rejecting the instruction and commands in the the word of God. This is spoken of in scripture. Personally…I have seen the multitudes give sway to this apostate and rebellious spirit. I have seen the hostility of those that embrace this spirit when confronted with the word of God. They are violent and hostile in reaction to the word of God, when presented to show the error. All kinds of hoops and vain jangling will they throw at you, doing anything and everything to get you onside with them. Bottom line is…once you go onside with them, you have taken a position contrary and opposed to the biblical position and instruction. This is outside of the Holy Spirit that leads and guides us into all truth, He would never lead one to reject the commands and instructions in scripture, yet there is one who will and does just that.

  85. I think it is very insensitive to speak of adulterers and adulteresses and those who defend them as though they were going to burn in hell forever, at least without offering to bring marshmallows for smores.

    From the way some people talk, you would think John 8 would see Jesus pimping for the adulteress. That is not the case. If you want justice, integrity, true benevolence, then get out the stones, the torture implements, the thumbscrews the Iron maiden, ready the rack, the impaling spikes, the hooks for dismembering and ready the horses to draw and quarter the two bit whore and her sleazy accomplice and let the couple who burned with lustful passion together on earth burn in hell forever together in hate.

    But, there is one problem. Jesus would call us all to join her.

    Jesus’ point was not that she is OK or justified or rightfully defended for her sin. Jesus’ point is that we are as guilty as she.

    So do you want to play the whore on your marriage? Be sure you will find yourself in hell together with your lover. I am inclined to add, “unless you repent”, but most likely you won’t. If you justify such crimes against God and against humanity, then you have no regard for the love or authority of God and you most certainly have no regard for your own integrity or the worth of your word. And furthermore if that is your attitude toward marriage, then you are a liar and a hypocrite if you even dare to speak the wedding vows because there is no sincerity in your intentions to keep your covenant, and your promises are only given for the purpose of getting something you want. Take that away, and your promises are worthless.

    And you justify it with excuses as though God Almighty were either an idiot or a liar for daring to give you a commandment you did not feel should be trusted or obeyed.

    No. John 8 is not there to coddle the adulterer or adulteress. It is there to say, “Look how you judge another for their sins. You speak to God of how you want to be judged.”

    It’s too late to take the judgment back now. You cannot cut a deal with God and say, “Ok, forgive her if you will forgive me, too.” The flames of hellfire are beneath you waiting for the ground you stand on to collapse sending you reeling to the depths below. And you can hardly ask for salvation without asking for others to be saved before you. You can hardly devalue the souls of another without devaluing your own and the souls of your most beloved.

    So, get out the marshmallows and hotdogs for the ones who will be saved, for if you perish, they will not have grounds to pity you much at all, for your sin against God will be much greater than you once thought it was because God is much more precious than you once thought He was, and your actions against Him were much more heinous than you once thought they were.

    No sin is OK. And there will not be a single liar or adulterer or coward in heaven.

    We will choose this day who we will serve today, tomorrow, and forever by our chose to give up sin or give up Jesus. We will love one and hate the other. We will worship one and renounce the other. We will be possessed by one and not by the other. And the one we trust or have faith in will be the one that we will spend our eternity with.

    • I think that last message I wrote was harsh. It may seem so much better to focus on the love of Christ than the judgment of God. After all, the Bible says something about the kindness of God bringing people to salvation. So, in a way you don’t want to scare people away or turn them off with all the hellfire and brimstone preaching.

      But, at the same time, you also don’t want a multitude of people running off the cliff overhanging the lake of fire and missing out on eternity in heaven because you were afraid to speak up before it was too late.

      The important thing is for us to be sincere when we seek God so that when we tell God we love Him, He will have reason to know we mean it.

  86. Diane said

    Good afternoon Elsie..

    I think roles are important, but they are pretty much going to depend on the different needs of each family; for example, if a husband is injured and unable to work, or before marriage it may be agreed upon that they both will make adjustments so that there always someone home with the children when they’re out of school. In these homes, men are very involved in the lives of their children, and their are thriving. Sometimes we get a westernized image about “roles” that stem from the industrial age, but doesn’t represent homelife throughout human history. The other observation I’ve had, is the home that is “male” ruled, the husband is emotionally starving his wife and children, irrational, rarely reflects and repents, and YET he thinks his house is in order. I believe a loving and nurturing home should be the goal and how the couple maintains that harmony in the home is between God the husband and wife. Our views of roles are very different, but I think we agree upon the need for a nurturing environment.

    Elsie I have heard some incredible preaching from men and women as well, and it makes my stomach turn to have to talk to my loved ones (some who are elderly) who are caught up in sending money to some of these prosperity preachers.

    Yes, division in the Body of Christ is something that I try to avoid. Some can disagree on an issue and yet pray that the Lord would reveal His Truth, but some unfortunately go on the attack. I have avoided entering into these attacks on women, women working, women preaching, women pastoring for many years, until I felt a conviction from God that my silence was not pleasing to Him. This isn’t the world persecuting these women with the hatred of the devil, though the world does, this enmity, jealousy, envy, hatred, ill-will is coming from Christians. If they were judging the message… that would be different.

    With much love,
    Diane :)

    • Elsie said

      Hello Diana,

      I ask myself, is this about me? No. It is about Christ Jesus. Our lives are hidden in Him. No longer we live but Christ lives in us. I was never “hung up” on the issue of women preachers. Like I mentioned to you before I heard women annointed by the Holy Spirit, teach and preach and never once in my heart I felt that because she was a woman that it was wrong for her to do that. God uses willing vesels. Let’s be for real, he used a donkey once. lol

      God bless you,
      Elsie

  87. Christine said

    Whether or not one is “anointed” to teach has nothing to do with gender, it have to do with whether of not they have “the spirit of God in them”. For “the word of God” cannot come “out of you” if you do not have it “in you” (if not, it can come “unto you only”, as you are still learning and, therefore, still “in need of one to teach you”… This is “who” Paul did not allow to teach – because they could not teach, even at a time when Paul said they “ought” to be able to).

    There is no male and female in Christ, all are one, joined by “one spirit” in “one body”, the body/bride (female) OF CHRIST (male). And because of this we are to “know no man after the flesh”! Indeed, we are “not in the flesh, but in the spirit” if so be that the spirit of God dwells in us.

    Every one of these quotes come from Paul. Now why would Paul say all of this and then turn around and tell women to be silent for it is a shame for them to even speak in the church, much less teach?

    Why would he say “know no man after the flesh” and then claim that we are to judge our teachers “according to the flesh”?

    Why would he tell us to study and make sure to rightly divide the word of truth, telling us to compare spiritual things with spiritual while we look upon those things are ARE NOT SEEN (which are eternal) and not those things which ARE SEEN (which are temporal) but tell us to to judge our brothers and sisters “according to the flesh” (rather than the spirit)?

    It just doesn’t make sense!! And will never ‘add up’ when to claim that Paul is actually talking about “women” according to the flesh makes Paul contradict himself.

    We are to know them “by their fruit”, we are to “try the spirits” to see whether they be “of God or not”. We are to do as the Bereans did and “search the scriptures” to see whether or not what they say “is true”. Not look at the flesh and verify that a certain piece of male anatomy!

    We are not to know anyone according to the flesh (not even Jesus, according to Paul)!! And did not Jesus give us an example of this as well? Not only by comparing his disciples (all male) to “a woman” whose time would come to be “delivered of the child” (which Paul refers to as “Eve” being “saved in childbearing”) but when they came to him to tell him that his mother and brothers were standing outside desiring to speak with Him. How did he respond?

    All I know is I cannot convince anyone of anything and that is not my job. I can only share what I am seeing. It is the Holy Spirit that convicts of us… and who teaches us the truth, for in him there is no lie.

    I didn’t see any of this myself until just a few years ago and until that “understanding” came I took Paul “at his word” as well, even though I knew that it made Paul contradict himself. At the time I had no other way to “reconcile” it so I just accepted what Paul said, taking it “at face value” and waited for a better understanding to come – in, indeed, that was going to happen.

    I believe that it did happen and I will absolutely not “turn my back” on something that I believe the spirit has revealed to me, especially when I can now reconcile ALL of what Paul said and Paul no longer contradicts himself and everything he said can now be reconciled “together”. And not only can I reconcile Paul with Paul, but Paul’s words fit quite beautifully with the word of the Lord!

    ALL BLESSINGS IN CHRIST!
    Christine

  88. Angel said

    I have literally sat here for hours reading all sides of this debate…I will not sit and try to tell you that I am well versed in the scripture, but I will tell you that I read the bible when I feel God has asked me too, because there is something special he wants to show me. When I read it, I do not try to analize it…I just simply read it, sometimes more then once. When I have problems understanding its meaning, I pray! God answers me in some way.

    I beleive that there are many interpetations to the bible, and only though Jesus, can you find your answer…(John 14:6 Jesus said unto him, I am the way,the truth and the life, no man cometh unto the Father; but by me)IThis was the first verse that I learned when I was 7 years old, and I live by that verse. The bible was written to give us history, guidence, and a starting point, ..its your faith in God that keeps you on the right track. You all seem to forget that Jesus died for our sins, and that God understands that none of us are perfect. If we all serve God and have faith in God and do our best to follow his commandments according to our own understanding, we will be just fine. Our God is a forgiving God.

    Some of you interrprate only men should preach, some say women have that same role…remember we all have to suffer and be Judged on our own sins, not each others…so why do you all argue to no avail?

    I COULD interrperate that same passage in 1Timothy 2:12 “(But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.)” as saying that woman can not be teachers at colleges, or judges, police officers, military personel, a supervisor of any business or corporation, or any other role that would put them in a role over any men. Are we to take that one single passage and interrperate that?

    That being said, If had I been quiet (silent) 16 years ago to my husband and let him believe what he did at that time, he would be an athiest, as he was questioning the existance of any God, (he had a poor upbringing) now he is a man who beleives in God and Jesus and the holy ghost, and has been baptized…all because I was not quiet, I told him biblical stories his mother never told him, I told him everything I could (which is limited of coarse). Who taught me?…my mother! No preachers needed!!!! Man or woman!!!! We had a bible, time, and faith! Mattew 18:20 For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them………………It didnt specify man or woman! Now my husband and I sit down and learn together as a married couple that began as two people and became one in the eyes of the Lord in August of 1995.

    Question…Are there any of you that beleive I am comdemed to hell because of my lack of silence? Because I told my husband who God was and helped him in the right direction? It really doesn’t matter, because I know God loves me and will Judge me fairly and justly!

    you all are only using a very limited amount of scripture and interpretations (which is why there are so many denominations of religion) to prove your point on either side of this debate, there are 66 books of the bible, don’t limit yourselves to just a few passages! Its seems as if each of you are well versed in the bible, but that alone will not take you to heaven…If you feel that you are doing right by God and that God has called you…go with it…If you are doing it just to prove you can…I pity you!

    Im not a preacher, I am not of any denomination, I am not taking sides (I can only explain my own side), I am just simply a believer of Christ and all Mighty God!

    • Daniel said

      Looks like you want to be voluntarily ignorant of the scripture?
      1st Timothy was written by the hand of Paul…to Timothy, a young pastor for order in the church…not for college….c’mon.

      1 Corinthians 4:17
      For this reason I am sending to you Timothy, my son whom I love, who is faithful in the Lord. He will remind you of my way of life in Christ Jesus, which agrees with what I teach everywhere in every church.

  89. terry said

    I have question ‘ If the word of the Lord came to a prophetess saying go to such and such a place and setup a church and tell my people the gospel’ is the woman supposed to say but Paul does not allow us to speak in the church or be obedient to God an just go . in timothy it rightly starts with I (meaning Paul) so this is what Paul says but what does God say

  90. Casu Marzu said

    Let answer some questions:

    Are single women saved in childbearing?

    Do single women have to ask their husbands spiritual questions at home?

    Are women in church in subjection to all men or just to her husband?

    Are single men barred from ministry because they are not a “husband of one wife”?

    If a woman’s husband tells her to preach, does she not submit to him?

    • Daniel said

      Sounds like you have more then one problem with scripture.
      That is why you justify your rebellion and likely encourage
      others to embrace your apostate position. Itching ears…
      Do you plan to plead your case in the rejection of the Word
      of God…to God? It is better to obey God, not man. So much
      justification going around these days…from women preachers..
      which led to the ordination of homosexuals, a natural progression
      in the rebellion to God’s Word, to godless apparel and Christian
      women and their daughters dressing in what only the prostitutes
      of yesteryear would dare put on…it is called the Falling Away
      and it was prophesied long ago.

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