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OK Mormons, Come Check Out These

Posted by Job on March 19, 2007

Courtesy of The Independent Conservative’s weblog:

The Bible versus the Book of Mormon take one.

DNA versus the Book of Mormon take two.

All right. Come do your apologetics thing!

This entry was posted on March 19, 2007 at 7:25 pm and is filed under Mormon, salvation prayer as doctrinal statement. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0 feed. You can leave a response, or trackback from your own site.

27 Responses to “OK Mormons, Come Check Out These”

  1. steffielynn said

    March 20, 2007 at 4:17 am

    Hey I checked it out, I STILL know that Joseph Smith was a TRUE prophet, I STILL know that the church IS TRUE!!!! I don’t need to watch a video made by men who are trying to prove the Book of Mormon is false, all I have to do is read the scriptures, The Lord tells us how to know if a prophet is a true prophet, ” Ye shall know them by their fruits…every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a evil tree bringeth forth evil fruit. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bringeth forth good fruit.” (St Matthew 7:16-18) The LDS people and The LDS church are a product of the fruits of Joseph Smith, and they are GOOD!!!!!!

    Reply

  2. M Parker said

    March 20, 2007 at 4:18 pm

    Yawn. Asked and answered a thousand times.

    The people who made these videos are either unaware that all their charges have been dealt with, or they are purposely ignoring LDS responses.

    Reply

  3. independentconservative said

    March 20, 2007 at 4:46 pm

    Well if the LDS found proof of the claims in the lying Book of Mormon, please share it with us.

    Of course the LDS is not going to make a video showing you the truth. They want you to keep paying them your 10%.

    I don’t consider polygamy to be good fruit. I don’t consider racism to be good fruit either. Joseph Smith was both and claimed his god endorsed it.

    Reply

  4. healtheland said

    March 21, 2007 at 2:07 am

    M. Parker: What are the answers?

    steffielynn: The Bible does say that. However, the Bible says lots of other things. Like this, for instance:

    Galatians 1:8-9 “But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.”

    And this:

    Revelation 22: 18 – 19 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

    Reply

  5. independentconservative said

    March 21, 2007 at 3:53 am

    The Mormon named Alma stopped by my blog and commented on the post “The Bible Versus The Book of Mormon” I asked him to prove the places in the Book of Mormon existed. He could not. I don’t tolerate foolishness long over at my spot and showed him the door, permanently.

    They know this mess is not true, yet they still run with it.

    Mormons, give it up and turn to the truth. Trash that Book of Mormon and stick with the teachings of the Bible.

    Joseph Smith lied and you do future generations a disservice by continuing to promote a cult! Not to mention the fate of your own souls. Don’t assume you’ll reach Heaven while endorsing something you’ve already seen is a proven lie!

    Reply

  6. D. Charles Pyle said

    March 21, 2007 at 4:18 am

    Well, for starters, the premises for both films are faulty and based upon faulty presentation of limited evidence. Both films ask the wrong questions of the data and draw fundamentally wrong conclusions. Want details? Well, for starters, the evidence of the DNA is turning another way as more and more samples are taken.

    Further, drawing conclusions based upon the Lemba are faulty due to the fact that the culture of the Lemba is vastly different than that portrayed in the Book of Mormon.

    Furthermore, the mtDNA samples among the Lemba are virtually if not actually unanimously African in origin rather than from existing Middle Eastern haplogroups. This matches up rather nicely with the evidence we find in the Americas, wherein previous studies did not find mtDNAs that were from the Middle East–or so the claims went.

    The Lemba only have about a thousand years of history. The Book of Mormon far exceeds that. The Lemba had strict policy against intermarriage of the Buba group with outsiders but still have lost all of the mtDNA, and only preserve but roughly 50% of the y-chDNA. The Book of Mormon peoples had no such policy restricting intermarriage. What do we really hope to gain from the data at this point in time?

    Want more? We’ll first see whether this post goes up and stays up for any length of time. :-)

    Reply

  7. independentconservative said

    March 21, 2007 at 5:57 am

    These Mormon excuses are simply disgusting. The pack of lies called the Book of Mormon speaks of events that occurred both before and after THE REAL JESUS was resurrected. Yet people and places in the Bible are easily identifiable via DNA and artifacts, while NOTHING AND NOBODY from the book of Mormon can be found. Just a lying man, who wanted to sleep around named Joseph Smith.

    Reply

  8. steffielynn said

    March 21, 2007 at 4:30 pm

    Hey guys, I’m just so over this argument, All this anti just goes in circles and seems to never end, even when these things are addressed! We do believe differently than you, that does not mean we are wrong just because YOU disagree! I just would like to say that I love my Savior and Lord Jesus Christ, my life has changed because of this gospel. I love my Heavenly Father and I KNOW that what I am doing is right. I know this is where I’m supposed to be and what I’m supposed to be doing. Good things come from God. My life is good and His gospel is good. This is how I KNOW it is true!!!!!!!!! Also regarding Revelations 22: 18-19 do you know your history of how the canon (Bible)was compiled? Let me give you a brief history lesson; first of all Bible is a greek word meaning “the books”, the Bible is not one book, but a divine library. The book of Revelation was written by John The Revelator. John is not speaking of the Bible when he wrote Revelation 22: 18-19 because the Bible was not yet compiled. He was speaking only of the book of Revelation. The Bible as we know it was compiled years later and is NOT in chronological order. Also….in Deuteronomy 4:2 it says…. ” Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the Lord your God which I command you.” So is everything written after Deuteronomy false? No. Why? Because He is speaking of the book of Deuteronomy, not the Bible. Just like John who was speaking only of the book of Revelation. Nowhere does the bible itself declare that God will no longer speak directly to his children or add scripture, I challenge you to look for yourself

    Reply

  9. D. Charles Pyle said

    March 21, 2007 at 10:59 pm

    No excuse but the truth is spoken by me. Go and get tested for your mtDNA. Then, compare it to your FATHER’S mtDNA. You might be surprised to find that it won’t match. This is because mtDNA is only passed from mother to child. This means that the mtDNA for all of Lehi’s descendants would have been that of the mothers of these descendants.

    We know that there were a number of intermarriages in the Book of Mormon, which establishes a pattern. This pattern can indeed be seen in native Jewish populations all over the world, which is exactly why most Jews see absolutely no value in testing mtDNA lines. You see, the Jews in Europe mostly carry European mtDNA lines. The same is the case for Yemeni Jews, which carry mtDNA lines common to Yemeni. The same is true of African Jews, which virtually all carry African mtDNA lines. And, so it goes with Native American Jews. They have–you guessed it!–”Native American” mtDNA lines. This is all science fact, not fiction.

    For this reason, the film is weak because it takes a common pattern among descendants of Israel (the fact that mtDNA is useless in determining Jewishness) and tries to twist it into evidence against the Book of Mormon. The methodology is nothing more than good science gone bad. I knolw you do not that but there it is.

    On another matter, the idea of archaeology either proving or disproving a text, the same shoddy methodology is used. Apples and Oranges are compared here. Why? It is quite simple. Biblical archaeology is far ahead for reasons not widely known, one of which is that people made maps to preserve locations in the holy land.

    In the Americas it was a very, very different story. Cultures that conquered other cultures replaced them with their own, destroyed sacred texts and replaced them with their own, and built overtop the ruins of the conquered peoples in layers, with each succeeding occupation built overtop the previous, layer by layer. In point of fact, the Book of Mormon Lamanites were no different in this regard. They planned and vowed to destroy the records if they ever got their hands on them.

    Have you ever tried to do an archaeological dig with something like that? Try getting the Mexican authorities to allow you to demolish Maya ruins so that you can dig under them and get to the earlier layers of ruins and see how far you get with that request! I can guarantee that you will not meet with much enthusiasm in that area. :-)

    This is why the very idea of trying to debunk the Book of Mormon with archaeology will not work. In order to get to the lowest layers of previous occupations, you first must demolish the upper layers and this will not be happening any time soon there.

    There is other evidence, however, right in the Book of Mormon text. For instance, the use of alcoholic drinks of various sorts. This did not occur but among Mesoamerica and parts of South America. There were many alcoholic beverages of various types in Mesoamerica. We know that blood was sacrificed by the Maya and other cultures in Mesoamerica (I am not talking about animal sacrifices here but the literal sacrifice of blood). The Book of Mormon just happens to briefly mention such a practice but with the added comment that it was not of any use. Population movements, cultural practices and other elements of Mesoamerica can be seen in the Book of Mormon by anyone who knows where to look for them and what to look for. Heat of the day in January? It can happen in Mexico but Joseph Smith’s environment could produce nothing for him to reference.

    In addition to this, there is very good evidence coming forth from the Arabian Peninsula these days, including a continually flowing riverlet and an area that was exactly as described by the Book of Mormon–and Joseph Smith would never have known of these places because they are in no maps from the period when he lived.

    More at a future time… :-)

    Reply

  10. D. Charles Pyle said

    March 21, 2007 at 11:03 pm

    I leave for the weekend with a mention of something. It is known that smaller populations will lose their genetic identity when mixing in with larger populations. This can be seen in Iceland and can be seen among the peoples of the Maya, which latter example can show that there is not a trace of the descendants of some of the peoples who invaded there only a thousand years or so ago. Does this mean that the Maya Nobles did not exist? Not at all. So it may be with the Book of Mormon….

    Reply

  11. IndependentConservative said

    March 22, 2007 at 1:01 am

    Steffielynn – You claim Jesus and the father. What about that “heavenly mother” you believe in? Do you love her too? Or do you not mention her because you know she does not really exists?

    This is not merely some debate over “different”, but rather what is and what is not. Jesus in flesh DID live and walk in areas now readily identified in various historical accounts. The Book of Mormon’s account of not only Jesus but all the people mentioned in that book cannot be found or verified, because they never existed to begin with.

    Now I know you and many Mormons love your faith because you feel it gives you inner peace and such. For you, to accept anything else would be disturbing. But would you rather be disturbed now or at judgment when you DON’T see Joseph Smith there to vouch for you? You’ve been shown that the entire foundation for what you believed in is totally made up. You can have a greater peace in knowing Jesus in truth, which is not found in the Book of Mormon. Would you rather have the truth, or the adoration of people in your personal circle? None of those people and especially not Joseph Smith will be able to vouch for you at judgment. You have been shown the truth and you will be held accountable. See the information here about how to truly accept Jesus and walk with Christ. Minus the lies of Joseph Smith.

    D. Charles Pyle – Why you keep spinning out twists on the already provided facts is unknown to me. However everyone already knows that their DNA even via their father’s line can be traced. You are trying to invalidate the most widely respected testing in the world for the sake of your cult. Amazing. Give it up. What never existed can never be found, period!

    And with your last comment, you’ve reduced yourself to suspecion with “so it may be…”, because you know that you’re spinning in the wind.

    You’ve already seen scientists who are far more knowledgeable in the field than yourself admit that the Book of Mormon is NOT telling you the truth. Do you think the REAL Jesus is actually going to allow you to get away with living a lie, now that you were shown it was a lie?. Give it up and come to know the true Jesus.

    Reply

  12. D. Charles Pyle said

    March 23, 2007 at 11:02 am

    “D. Charles Pyle – Why you keep spinning out twists on the already provided facts is unknown to me.”

    There is no spinning on my account but there is quite a lot of spinning in the films, which has proven P.T. Barnum quite right about some in the world. :-)

    “However everyone already knows that their DNA even via their father’s line can be traced. You are trying to invalidate the most widely respected testing in the world for the sake of your cult. Amazing. Give it up. What never existed can never be found, period!”

    And, this comment demonstrates quite eloquently your ignorance of the subject. Here is a little lesson on the subject. I have yet said nothing about Nuclear DNA, which is what you seem to be referring to with respect to so-called paternity testing.

    There are two types of DNA tests that are used most in population studies. These are y-chDNA and mtDNA. Nuclear DNA is most useful for paternity testing but it has a “half-life” and gets more difficult over generations. MtDNA and y-chDNA are transmitted almost unchanged from generation to generation. The minor changes that occur here are mostly from mutations.

    Here, boys get y-chDNA from their fathers and girls get mtDNA from their mothers. The only way a girl can get her father’s y-chDNA is from a fluke of nature via genetic defect. y-chDNA is the y chromosome, which is usually only found in males. mtDNA is passed from the mother, NOT the father.

    So, while you have your mother’s mtDNA, NONE of your sons, if you have any, carry your mtDNA. They all carry your wife’s mtDNA, which obliterated your mother’s mtDNA by replacement, and that happened in only a single generation! Go get you and your family tested and verify that for yourselves if you do not wish to be suckered by the film any longer.

    Likewise, none of your daughters, if you have any and if they do not have some sort of severe genetic deformity or other issue, carry your y-chDNA. That you did not understand the comments I made shows you have little knowledge of what I just said and that you have been suckered by spin doctors.

    Furthermore, I am hardly invalidating the science. I only am invalidating the junk science created from thefilmmakers’ and films’ interviewees’ misreading and misapplication of the data and your misunderstanding of the comments I made.

    “And with your last comment, you’ve reduced yourself to suspecion with “so it may be…”, because you know that you’re spinning in the wind.”

    Nope. Just using “caution” because science speaks of probabilities and observation. I also leave it open for what I will say when I return from my weekend trip (I will have no access to a computer when I finally reach my destination). Believe me, you will not like what you are going to hear… :-)

    “You’ve already seen scientists who are far more knowledgeable in the field than yourself admit that the Book of Mormon is NOT telling you the truth.”

    Actually, several of the individuals are not as knowledgeable on the subject as you think. Not only have they misread what the data actually states and have used shoddy methodology, Murphy, for example, only took a couple classes on the subject and by no means has the training ascribed to him by the filmmakers.

    “Do you think the REAL Jesus is actually going to allow you to get away with living a lie, now that you were shown it was a lie?. Give it up and come to know the true Jesus.”

    I know Jesus. I do not know this creature “The REAL Jesus TM,” of which you speak. Quite frankly, what this “The REAL Jesus TM” allegedly thinks does not matter much to me.

    Now on laying that aside, I do have mention of two other types of DNA that are used in certain population studies. These are aDNA and HLA-DNA. aDNA is an acronym for Ancient DNA, which is what can be extracted from mummies, and so forth. HLA-DNA is what can also be tested in individuals and is passed down as well. Human Lymphotrophic Antigen is what the HLA stands for. This sort of DNA testing had revealed some interesting results, which I will talk about later. I reach my destination Saturday morning and will have no access to a computer until late Monday or early Tuesday next week. TTFN. :-)

    Reply

  13. IndependentConservative said

    March 23, 2007 at 5:35 pm

    I see a lot of babble, but no facts. Nobody and I mean NOBODY can find artifacts or actual people that are claimed in the Book of Mormon. Unless you count people and events Smith took from the Bible when constructing his book of lies.

    For crying out loud, even the Muslim cult can claim their book speaks of some actual people and events and can provide historical proof to back it up.

    Burn that Book of Mormon and accept a Jesus centered faith based on the Bible.

    Reply

  14. D. Charles Pyle said

    March 23, 2007 at 10:24 pm

    I already know you will not be listening to me any time soon so here is a link from the Indigenous Peoples Council on Biocolonialism to read while I am gone:

    Genetic “Markers”- Not a Valid Test of Native Identity

    I think readers will find this page most enlightening and illustrative.

    Reply

  15. D. Charles Pyle said

    March 23, 2007 at 10:39 pm

    Forgot to post this from the conclusion of the briefing paper just cited. Here it is:

    The concept of genetic testing to prove Native American ancestry is one that is discussed more frequently in recent times, but there are many problems with the idea. Perhaps foremost of these problems is that to make a genetic test the arbiter of whether someone is Native American or not is to give up tribal sovereign ability to determine membership and relations. But even taken on their own scientific terms, the tests cannot do much to identify who is and who is not Native American. This is because they yield many false negatives and false positives (they readily misidentify non-Native people as Native, and misidentify Native people as non-Native), and the positive results they do yield at best are only probabilities, not certainties. If these were medical diagnostic tests, they would never be approved or adopted. (Quoted from the document cited in my just previous post)

    Reply

  16. D. Charles Pyle said

    March 24, 2007 at 3:22 am

    Last stop until Tuesday…

    “But even taken on their own scientific terms, the tests cannot do much to identify who is and who is not Native American. This is because they yield many false negatives and false positives (they readily misidentify non-Native people as Native, and misidentify Native people as non-Native), and the positive results they do yield at best are only probabilities, not certainties.”

    These are the words of an actual, qualified, non-Mormon Molecular Biologist. If the science cannot produce certainties, yields “many false positives and negatives,” and “cannot do much to identify who is and who is not Native American,” how on earth is it reliable enough to determine who is or is not of Israel, or who is or is not a descendant of Book of Mormon people?

    Food for thought!

    Reply

  17. MormonChristian said

    March 24, 2007 at 5:25 am

    IndependentConservative, what is the cause of your hatred toward the LDS church? You believe differently from me, but I do not hate you for it. I believe that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints is the full gospel of Jesus Christ restored to the earth. You believe your religion is true and correct. So what? Am I going to bash you and spew hatred toward you because I believe you are wrong? No, because I believe in loving my fellow men, as Christ has taught. I hope you will see that your destructive attitude does nobody any good. So everything we believe is not exactly the same, oh well, I am not hurting you at all by my beliefs. So get over it.

    Reply

  18. IndependentConservative said

    March 24, 2007 at 2:00 pm

    D. Charles Pyle, you can’t support the claims of the Book of Mormon genetically. You can’t prove them archaeologically and you can’t prove them historically. So all you can do to support your cult is to continually attempt to disprove what has already proven the existence of every historically recorded society except those invented by Joseph Smith.

    @17, there is no such thing as a “Mormon Christian”. Mormonism is a cult invented by Joseph Smith, Christianity is the truth and you should follow the Jesus of the Bible and trash that Book of Mormon garbage.

    I love you enough to tell you when you’ve lost your way in a cult. If I hated you, I’d say nothing and allow you to suffer the fate of following a cult, without a word.

    Reply

  19. IndependentConservative said

    March 24, 2007 at 6:42 pm

    Because I love you folks and want you to know the truth, I will persist for now.

    I have more facts that dispel the terrible untruth told to you by Joseph Smith. Please have a look at this:
    Joseph Smith’s Official First Vision Account versus the facts.

    Also, Joseph Smith was not able to keep the lie straight, because he made up numerous variations of his invented vision.

    Now lets acknowledge that Joseph Smith was a great deceiver, accept the Jesus of the Bible and follow him in a Jesus centered walk as detailed in the Bible.

    Reply

  20. steffielynn said

    March 25, 2007 at 2:31 am

    You said it Mormon Christian!!!! ( By the way I love your name!!!) So I have a question for Independent Conservative and Heathland… Can you PROVE there is a God? Have you ever seen him? How do you KNOW he exists??? I want you to PROVE there is a GOD. PROVE it!!!!!!!

    Reply

  21. healtheland said

    March 25, 2007 at 4:30 am

    Steffielynn:

    My proof is my testimony. Now I do realize that demons can heal people and stuff like that, but I am certain that these mighty acts that have been worked by God in my life are not the work of demons, because 1) I have always prayed only in the Name of Jesus Christ and 2) I have always strictly adhered to the Bible to the best of my knowledge and ability. And #2 is key. I said “to the best of my knowledge”, well, my knowledge was lacking because my religious background was a Pentecostal “church” that filled me with false doctrines and practices. Over the past couple of years, God has been revealing to me how much of that stuff was a lie (pretty much all of it) and has been pulling me closer and closer to the Bible. And you know what? The miracles have not stopped, but they have increased! Now if I was not following God before and my “blessings” were coming from demons, then they should have stopped when I began to more closely following the Bible. Or if going against the Bible and after false doctrines and traditions (stuff like the Book of Mormon) was PROOF that the Bible is not good enough, then my going back to the Bible would have diminished the blessings and the miracles. But no, I was blessed before though I was not following the Bible because though I was in error, my heart was right and I still had faith. And now that I am following the Bible AND my heart is right, I am being blessed even more. So Steffielynn, here a link to a document giving my testimony that lets me know that God is real, that He exists eternally in Tri – Unity of the Will, the Word, and the Spirit, and that the Bible alone is the Word of God. And let me tell you: this document is over a year old, written back when I was still adhering to my false doctrines and stuff. LOTS more blessings have happened to me since I let that junk go. So please, read this document, and let me know if you have ever seen or experienced anything like this in your own cult.
    http://healthelanddevotionalarchives.wordpress.com/2007/03/01/testimony-time/ I really do need to start writing down some more of my testimonies just for the specific purpose of answering challenges like these.

    Reply

  22. steffielynn said

    March 25, 2007 at 3:26 pm

    Heathland thank you for writing me back! The point of my question was, to do to you what you are doing to us. And your answer is what most of us have been trying to get across to you!!! You know He exists because of your FAITH! You can not show me evidence that He is real, You cannot PROVE His existence. But you KNOW because of your FAITH. That is how we know the Book of Mormon is TRUE, it is how we KNOW Joseph Smith WAS a TRUE PROPHET!!!! FAITH!!!! That is something you cannot argue. That is why these conversations just keep going in circles. I think it is great that you have a Testimony of God. (yes I did read your intire testimony!!) You ask me if I have ever experienced anything like that, Oh my have I!!!!!!! So I was raised in a Lutheran church, and after I left home I started attending different churches, all kinds from baptist to nondenominational. When I attended different churches I always left feeling great but the feeling would leave me a few hours later. So a couple years go by and I am still struggling to find where I belonged. So guess what happens, Two missionaries from the LDS church come to the door. ( I was raised anti, my parents had taught me that mormons were evil and they were all going to hell) So anyways, normally I would hide and pretend I wasn’t home, but for some crazy reason I answered that door!!! When I opened the door they introduced themselves to me, I didn’t understand what I was seeing at the time but I saw something in their faces, something I was missing. So the Elders started coming over and teaching me. Soon my husband started joining in the discussions. It was really hard for me to get over what was instilled in my brain as a child (that they were an evil cult and were all going to hell) But after a while, I decided I needed to do what they had encouraged me to do. Pray about it, to ask for myself. I got down on my knees(I was by myself) and I poured my heart outto the Lord… I recieved my answer. It was not the answer I was hoping for, or expecting. (Joining the church meant I had to change my life and lifestyle, that was something I was not to excited about)… And it wasn’t a loud booming voice telling me these things were true. It was going from being broken, sad, and confused to completely whole. My heart was healed and I KNEW these things were true!!! So Heathland, I did not experience physical healing but I did experience spiritual and mental healing. I too have been blessed beyond belief!!!! I could not even begin to count my blessings, but my life, my marriage, my happiness has been dramatically changed. I am whole my heart is no longer broken. I know with all my heart and all my soul that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is true!!! Oh and what I saw, in the faces of those missionaries when they were standing at my door, was the light of Christ, and now I have that light with me always!!! And Heathland, MY proof is MY testimony!!!!!

    Reply

  23. IndependentConservative said

    March 26, 2007 at 2:16 pm

    Mormons, here is all the proof you need. Not from me, but from the Word of God.

    I have given you the facts. Shown you how the Book of Mormon is not rooted in truth. Shown you how the very thing that Joseph Smith started Mormonism with is untrue. Although I love you and pray that you are one day freed from the heresy that binds you, my time to help you is not infinite. I have given you the truth and must move on to many other affairs that must be tended to.

    I pray one day you know the truth of Jesus Christ and reject the lies of Joseph Smith. I’ve given you enough to get started if you are willing.

    Reply

  24. Alma said

    March 26, 2007 at 6:24 pm

    It would be impossible to improve on Steffielynn’s thoughtful comment. I would, however, like to point out a couple of things evident from this conversation and a couple of things I noticed about the “Bible Versus Book of Mormon” video. Notice not just the venom present in Independentconservative’s messages but also that it appeals largely to emotions–the natural man. He uses loaded words like “lying” and “cult” and “garbage.” It’s some of the best evidence I’ve seen that the natural man cannot understand the things of the spirit.

    Secondly, the dishonesty of the film may not be readily apparent to people who aren’t familiar with both the Book of Mormon and a few of the scientific disciplines it tries to mimic. At 45 minutes into the video, Murphy makes a comment that is instructive. He points out that the Book of Mormon mentions “wheat” and “barley.” This got very interesting because until about 20 years ago, this was a very common criticism. You don’t hear it quite as much today because barley has been discovered in pre-Columbian settings. I thought it would be unlikely that Murphy would be unaware of the barley discovery so I paid close attention to what came next. He said, “We don’t see wheat. We don’t see uh…..” subject change. Even though half of his argument in that statement is invalid, he tries to imply that it isn’t. Consider how they handle the idea of horses.

    Anyone familiar with the Book of Mormon can see that the “horse” discussed in the Book of Mormon doesn’t have the same use as the old world horse familiar to everyone. The Book of Mormon horse is never ridden. Not one reference to it indicates that it carried a rider. 3 Nephi 4:4 implies that these horses were used for meat –clearly not a Hebrew custom. The video points out that Mormon defenders have suggested that this was a name given to indigenous animals (similar to the Romans having named a water mammal they found in Africa a “river-horse” hippo (horse) potamus (river). The video discounts this possibility, saying: “stories of riding horses into battle could not have occurred.” See how they slipped that in? There is no account of anyone riding a horse in the Book of Mormon–into battle or anywhere else.

    In trying to demonstrate that this is anachronistic, the video even highlights a passage from the Book of Mormon: “their land is full of horses” without telling the audience that this is a quotation from Isaiah, not a description of Book of Mormon lands. That’s deception.

    Their real paradigm, however, is reiterated time after time–and it is merely the atheistic paradigm of the anti-Christ Korihor in the Book of Mormon: “Behold, ye cannot know of things which ye do not see; therefore ye cannot know that there shall be a Christ.” That theme is repacked in the video, by apparently the same author: “If there is no evidence, it could not be true.”

    That idea is as devastating to faith in the resurrection as it is to the Book of Mormon. It’s also dishonest. The video implies that the major problem with the Book of Mormon is that since no specific sites can be demonstrated where this occurred that the Book of Mormon must be false and the Bible is consequently true–because they know where the miracles of the Bible occurred. If this were true, our critics would have no trouble accepting the Doctrine and Covenants since we can pinpoint on a map not only the city, and date but very often the precise room. But, as always, there is one standard for Mormonism and a different one for orthodox Christianity.

    Reply

  25. John Tvedtnes said

    March 27, 2007 at 12:31 am

    I have no problem with the DNA research, only the way in which it is misconstrued by anti-Mormons. I have dealt with the DNA research in my “Interpreting the DNA Data and the Book of Mormon,” posted in three parts at the Meridian Magazine web site:
    http://www.meridianmagazine.com/ancients/050711dna.html
    http://www.meridianmagazine.com/ancients/050712dna2.html
    http://www.meridianmagazine.com/ancients/050713dna3.html

    The article deals mostly with mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) studies, but I plan to also write one that deals with Y-chromosome DNA studies, where there is clear evidence of Middle Eastern contact with the Americas. Watch for it.

    I hope you post this, rather than just ignoring it.

    Reply

  26. steffielynn said

    March 27, 2007 at 8:47 pm

    Healtheland I appreciate you allowing Alma and others the opportunity to post their comments, (unlike some other blogs!)…These folks know what they are talking about when it comes to the nitty gritty details. Anti Mormon videos and literature are all the same, ALL these issues have been addressed many, many times by Mormons but for some reason no one will allow Mormons to express their own beliefs, why is that??????

    Reply

  27. steffielynn said

    March 28, 2007 at 12:06 pm

    Here is an official response from FAIR http://www.JosephSmithDVD.org
    I hope you check it out!!!!

    Reply

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